/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jan 30 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [01:20] <AryehGregor> Hixie, why drop the syntax sugar for walking the keys of a Storage object?
  18. # [01:20] <AryehGregor> Syntax sugar is nice.
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  61. # [04:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: because it only saved 4 characters anyway, it was inconsistent in setting and getting, only 1 browser out of 5 implemented it, and what the other browsers did is not compatible (they couldn't implement it without potentially breaking content that assumed their behaviour).
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  124. # [11:37] <Figaroo> Hi all
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  129. # [11:39] <benjoffe> it seems adding an link with the 'tel:' attribute will annoy more users than it will help, as desktop browser that can't handle it still render the link clickable
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  131. # [11:41] <sholmes> that is, when a new line is created and overflows the element's height, the text should have an ellipsis
  132. # [11:41] <sholmes> You know what I'm saying?
  133. # [11:42] <sholmes> wait my last message didn't go through.
  134. # [11:42] <sholmes> Is it possible to use text-overflow for text that overflows the height?
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  169. # [14:24] <annevk> Opera has an extension for that ellipsis problem...
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  232. # [18:26] <webr3> true? -> "In HTML5, rel and rev are no-longer paired, and the rel attribute no longer describes the direction of a relationship. Microformats which use rev will need to use rel instead."
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  234. # [18:27] <webr3> rel no longer has directionality, as in "currentdoc rel href" as a typed directed link is no longer the case, and rel is some generic relation between the two uris, such that "A rel B" and "B rel A" both hold as true
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  240. # [18:42] <annevk> webr3, there's no rev
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  255. # [19:26] <webr3> annevk, yup i know there's no rev, but what about directionality, and how do you actually do a reverse link?
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  257. # [19:27] <webr3> well, no rev in the draft html 5 / living standard spec, well there is it's mentioned in a few places, but shouldn't be used, but when it is, it's catered for, in some places
  258. # [19:27] <Philip`> rel is directional, and you can do a reverse link by using a rel keyword with the opposing meaning
  259. # [19:27] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  260. # [19:27] <webr3> okay, so directionality is based on the property used in the rel ya?
  261. # [19:28] <Philip`> Yes, that defines the directionality of the meaning
  262. # [19:29] <Philip`> e.g. rel="next" says the linked page is next after the current one, and rel="prev" says it's previous to the current one
  263. # [19:30] <Philip`> so instead of rev="next" you can use rel="prev", etc
  264. # [19:30] <webr3> A next B infers B prev A
  265. # [19:30] <Philip`> which is typically less confusing (people use rev wrongly about as often as they use it correctly)
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  267. # [19:32] <webr3> and some are bidirectional i assume? alternate for example?
  268. # [19:33] <webr3> what's the inverse of author?
  269. # [19:35] <webben> webr3: The inverse of author is to add a rel="author" back from the authored page to the author page.
  270. # [19:41] * abarth|xss is now known as abarth
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  272. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> Hmm. I should have tested extend() with diacritics.
  273. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> Thankfully Firefox is sane and treats the offsets as corresponding to characters (or maybe code units?) and not grapheme clusters.
  274. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> But modify() still works on grapheme clusters.
  275. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> At least with "character".
  276. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Seems like it's all code units.
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  279. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Okay, so in WebKit all Range boundary points have to fall on grapheme cluster boundaries, it looks like . . . that seems bad.
  280. # [19:53] * AryehGregor goes with Firefox and the current spec on that point
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  284. # [20:06] <Philip`> Does "grapheme cluster boundaries" mean "code unit boundaries after NFC normalisation"?
  285. # [20:06] <Hixie> no
  286. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> So, what should happen to cx.createImageData("1", "2")?
  287. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> Philip`, no, because a character and its diacritics count as one grapheme cluster even if there's no composed form.
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  289. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> In fact, UAX29 defines everything in terms of NFD.
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  292. # [20:15] <Philip`> Ms2ger: It should teach API designers the foolishness of typed-based overloading in a dynamically-typed language
  293. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> I was actually hoping you'd write a test ;)
  294. # [20:15] <Philip`> and then it should do whatever the convoluted algorithms in WebIDL say it should do, unless WebIDL is wrong
  295. # [20:16] <Philip`> (Maybe WebIDL just looks at the number of arguments and ignores the types?)
  296. # [20:16] <Philip`> (Hmm, no, it can't do that)
  297. # [20:16] * Philip` shrugs
  298. # [20:23] <webr3> webben, you you're saying that on an html page if I do "A author B" then it infers that "B is author of A" and if I do "A author B" on another page (the authors page) then it infers that "A is author of B"
  299. # [20:27] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.68)
  300. # [20:30] * AryehGregor just rewrote everything in DOM Range like "If the position of new start relative to the context object's end is after" to something like "If new start is after the context object's end"
  301. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> I love the convention of making normal words mean magical stuff by making them hyperlinks.
  302. # [20:33] <Philip`> Sounds like you're one of those fancy modern programmers who likes using subroutines
  303. # [20:34] * Philip` doesn't think they'll catch on - much better to be explicit and write everything out in full each time
  304. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Who uses functions anyway?
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  309. # [20:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the validator could maybe give a clearer message if you put body stuff in head
  310. # [20:53] <zcorpan> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdevelopers.whatwg.org%2F
  311. # [20:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah. grammars strike again
  312. # [20:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but you could do something in the html parser, no?
  313. # [20:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you mean error 6 and keeping track of whether body was implied?
  314. # [20:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: e.g. when you see </head> or <body> but body was implied, emit a warning saying which token implied body and say it should be moved into the body or so
  315. # [20:55] <zcorpan> yeah
  316. # [20:56] <hsivonen> ok. that's doable
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  318. # [20:59] <zcorpan> should i file a bug?
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  321. # [21:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that would be nice
  322. # [21:07] <webben> webr3: No.
  323. # [21:08] <webben> webr3: I'm saying there isn't a registered inversion of author
  324. # [21:09] <webben> webr3: Nobody's registered authoredby or anything like that.
  325. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> Hixie, okay, so do you really want me to try figuring out what things like "sentenceboundary" mean? I assume that's got to be left mostly platform-specific anyway.
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  327. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure what parts we'd want to spec here. Ideally not too vague . . .
  328. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> But I can't see how to realistically be specific.
  329. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> I'm thinking stuff like "paragraphboundary: The beginning or end of a paragraph, where a paragraph might correspond to the text selected when the user triple-clicks (on platforms using that convention)." I.e., enough to give you an idea, not much more.
  330. # [21:18] <webr3> webben, looks like you're seeing author as it's inversion, { <page> author <person> } means <person> is the author of <page>, <link rel="author" href="<person>" /> - I'm looking for the inverse of that, which would be "author of" in english, not "authored by" - "authored by" is the meaning of the "author" rel
  331. # [21:19] <webben> webr3: Sorry, yeah I mean pageauthoredby or work or something.
  332. # [21:19] <webben> webr3: Anyway nobody's registered what you want, so if you want it, define and register it I guess.
  333. # [21:20] <webr3> that process is going to have to be repeated for every rel, which is a shame
  334. # [21:22] * webben shrugs.
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  337. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> webr3, that's assuming we need all reverse relationships. The fact that rev has never taken off suggests we don't
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  340. # [21:40] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  341. # [21:41] <Hixie> AryehGregor: if it's an API, i don't see how ti can be anything but strictly defined
  342. # [21:41] <Hixie> AryehGregor: otherwise people will use the API and get different results
  343. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Hixie, because selection.modify("extend", "right", "line") is meant to mimic the effect of Shift+Down, for instance. In particular, its effect depends on things like where lines are broken and what font is used.
  344. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> There's no way we can spec that unless CSS is specced pixel-perfect.
  345. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Logically, this is a visual API, not a DOM one.
  346. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> (the modify() part is, I mean)
  347. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> (extend() can be defined in terms of DOM alone, although WebKit seemingly doesn't implement it that way)
  348. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Also, we want modify("extend", "right", "character") to depend on the definition of a grapheme cluster, which isn't really defined anywhere and should defer to how the platform behaves when the user does Shift+Right anyway.
  349. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> Similarly modify("extend", "right", "word") == Ctrl+Shift+Right, etc.
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  353. # [21:51] <benschwarz> zcorpan: thanks for the bug report
  354. # [21:53] <zcorpan> benschwarz: thanks for fixing it :)
  355. # [21:53] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.68) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  356. # [21:54] <zcorpan> oh you meant the newest bug
  357. # [21:54] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  358. # [21:55] <benschwarz> one at a time :)
  359. # [21:55] <benschwarz> I have no idea why the spec splitter is doing that right now
  360. # [21:55] <benschwarz> I actually had a brief look over the weekend
  361. # [21:55] <benschwarz> no idea
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  364. # [21:57] <zcorpan> Philip`: ^
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  366. # [21:58] <Philip`> Doing what?
  367. # [21:59] <benschwarz> Philip`: we have a <header class="head"> in the developer spec. The spec splitter seems to place it inside <head>
  368. # [22:03] <benschwarz> really it should be <header role="banner">, but thats another story :)
  369. # [22:04] <zcorpan> role=banner is implied by <header> no?
  370. # [22:04] <zcorpan> or maybe that was dropped
  371. # [22:04] <benschwarz> zcorpan: if its at the top level… I think
  372. # [22:05] <zcorpan> seems spec says header has no implied role but banner is allowed
  373. # [22:05] <zcorpan> ...to be specified
  374. # [22:07] <Philip`> benschwarz: What's the input file?
  375. # [22:07] <Philip`> Also, what version of the spec-splitter?
  376. # [22:08] * volkmar_ is now known as volkmar
  377. # [22:08] <Philip`> Also, what command-line arguments?
  378. # [22:08] <benschwarz> ttp://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/dev-index
  379. # [22:08] <benschwarz> only --html5lib-serialiser
  380. # [22:08] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@rps1542.ovh.net) (Changing host)
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  382. # [22:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: that's why this is hard
  383. # [22:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: doesn't mean we don't define it :-)
  384. # [22:09] <volkmar> someone remembers why all attribute float changed to attribute double?
  385. # [22:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: there's nothing wrong with referencing CSS in these definitions
  386. # [22:10] <benschwarz> Philip`: as for version… its HEAD about a week about
  387. # [22:10] <benschwarz> ago
  388. # [22:10] <benschwarz> Hixie: good morning :)
  389. # [22:10] <Hixie> hey ben
  390. # [22:11] <benschwarz> Hixie: we have rudimentary offline support and search…
  391. # [22:11] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.68)
  392. # [22:11] <Hixie> cool
  393. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> Hixie, we can't get script-testable interop anyway. Things like line breaking aren't specced. CSS itself doesn't define word or character boundaries for the purposes of things like :first-letter.
  394. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> Besides, the whole point of the API is to match what the user does when they hit arrow keys and so on, which is inherently platform- and browser-dependent.
  395. # [22:12] <benschwarz> I need to roll to the office. First day back for this client
  396. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> Using uniform definitions that don't match what browsers do for normal user interaction defeats the point of the API, and I doubt browsers would implement it.
  397. # [22:12] <erlehmann> the whatwg logo. is there a canonical svg version?
  398. # [22:12] <benschwarz> Philip`: it looks like http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/dev-index is missing a <HEAD> to begin with…
  399. # [22:13] * AryehGregor solicits Ms2ger's opinion
  400. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> Present, sir!
  401. # [22:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: at least "line", "paragraph", "line boundary", and "document boundary" are completely definable
  402. # [22:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: looks like a lot of the others aren't interoperably implemented anyway and maybe shouldn't be defined
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  404. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Hixie, are they? "Line" depends on line-breaking, which isn't interoperable.
  405. # [22:14] <Philip`> benschwarz: The head start tag is optional
  406. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> Not interoperable, but still definable
  407. # [22:14] <Hixie> AryehGregor: just define it in whatever terms CSS uses so that as we fix CSS it'll become interoperable
  408. # [22:14] <Philip`> benschwarz: I'm wondering whether your version of lxml is accidentally parsing the header as inside the head, or something
  409. # [22:14] <erlehmann> found it http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Apr/att-0042/logo.svg
  410. # [22:14] <Hixie> AryehGregor: e.g. use the same wording for letter boundaries as ::first-letter, or whatnot
  411. # [22:15] <benschwarz> Philip`: in the real world, everyone uses a <head>
  412. # [22:15] <Hixie> AryehGregor: same wording for word boundaries as text-transform:capitalise
  413. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> Hixie, so how do I work CSS into it? Does CSS have any notion of mapping between line boxes and the parts of the DOM they represent?
  414. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> IIRC, CSS just doesn't define those. :)
  415. # [22:15] <benschwarz> so despite the fact that its optional. most people expect them
  416. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> It makes more sense to informatively reference UAX#29.
  417. # [22:15] <Hixie> AryehGregor: start reading and learning the css2.1 spec :-)
  418. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> I have . . . it's horrifyingly vague.
  419. # [22:16] <benschwarz> maybe all I have to do is plead with Hixie to add a <head> :)
  420. # [22:16] <Philip`> benschwarz: Hmm, did you modify the splitter so the serialiser outputs explicit <head> etc?
  421. # [22:16] <Philip`> (It doesn't seem to do that by default)
  422. # [22:16] <Hixie> benschwarz: dev-index is generated by anolis
  423. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Look at this, it just doesn't define line boundaries at all: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#first-line-pseudo
  424. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> There's nothing to reference.
  425. # [22:17] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: annevk)
  426. # [22:17] <Hixie> benschwarz: but <head> is optional, the element is still there even if the tag isn't
  427. # [22:17] <Hixie> benschwarz: so so long as you're using a conforming parser you should be fine
  428. # [22:17] <Hixie> AryehGregor: for line boxes you want chapters 8, 9 and 10 iirc, not ::first-line
  429. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> I've read those before.
  430. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> I don't see how they're useful.
  431. # [22:18] <Philip`> benschwarz: Where does the <link rel="stylesheet" href="/css/master.css"> come from?
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  434. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> I think I should ask the people implementing this what sort of description they'd like to see.
  435. # [22:20] <Hixie> AryehGregor: they define how the display boxes (line boxes, inline boxes, line-wrapping, etc) are done
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  438. # [22:20] <benschwarz> Philip`: I add it in postprocessing
  439. # [22:20] <Philip`> Added how?
  440. # [22:21] <Philip`> I would guess your postprocessing tools are probably using non-HTML5-conforming parsers
  441. # [22:21] <Philip`> and are failing to correctly imply a <body> start tag when they see the <header> start tag
  442. # [22:21] <Philip`> since the splitter seems to be working correctly, as far as I can tell
  443. # [22:22] <benschwarz> hmm
  444. # [22:22] <benschwarz> let me verify
  445. # [22:22] <Philip`> (lxml looks okay to me)
  446. # [22:22] <benschwarz> Philip`: lxml would've been okay for many versions by now
  447. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> I'll send an RFC to whatwg.
  448. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> Not the IETF?
  449. # [22:24] <benschwarz> you must be right Philip`
  450. # [22:24] <Philip`> The splitter outputs <html ...><title>...</title><!-- ... --><meta ...> <script src="link-fixup.js"></script> <header class="head"> ...
  451. # [22:24] <Philip`> which is perfectly valid and means the header element is inside the body element
  452. # [22:24] <benschwarz> The parser I'm using is nokogiri, which is uses on libxml2…
  453. # [22:25] <benschwarz> due to the amount of postprocessing I'm doing, a <head> would be useful anyway…
  454. # [22:26] <Philip`> Add omit_optional_tags=False in the splitter's HTMLSerializer line if you want nothing omitted
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  456. # [22:29] <benschwarz> Thanks Philip` I will try that
  457. # [22:29] <benschwarz> now… I need to leave for the office
  458. # [22:29] <benschwarz> or else I'll be late :)
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  460. # [22:31] <benschwarz> Philip`: hmm. header still in the head
  461. # [22:31] <benschwarz> I'll keep trying to diagnose it later…
  462. # [22:31] <benschwarz> thanks for the heads up
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The end :)