/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 05 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Ah, I'm not.
  4. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> (Haven't restarted in a while.)
  5. # [00:05] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.117)
  6. # [00:11] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  7. # [00:13] * zcorpan filed http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=72005
  8. # [00:14] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
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  10. # [00:15] * zcorpan chooses to not work around the issue on his mom's dog's site and instead wait for the bug to be fixed
  11. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Oh, wow, *that's* the issue? We broke the adjacent sibling combinator? Wtf.
  12. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> (Also, file at bugs.webkit.org, please? You can crosslink the bugs, if you want.)
  13. # [00:20] <zcorpan> done
  14. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Danke.
  15. # [00:22] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.143.140) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  16. # [00:23] <zcorpan> hey, it's a site compat bug! you better go fix it :)
  17. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Actually, it almost certainly *is* a site compat bug.
  18. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Breaking combinators is no fun.
  19. # [00:28] * jgraham is somewhat surprised you don't have regression tests covering that
  20. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Me too.
  21. # [00:29] <jgraham> Although maybe it is more complex than I think?
  22. # [00:30] <zcorpan> jgraham: do *we* have regression tests covering that?
  23. # [00:30] <jgraham> zcorpan: I expect that depends how broken it is
  24. # [00:31] <jgraham> I might imagine that the CSS2.1 testsuite covers it
  25. # [00:31] <jgraham> If not, this is the ideal time for someone to make a test (although I guess it would have to go into the Selectors 3 TS)
  26. # [00:33] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/827 shows the bug as well
  27. # [00:35] <jgraham> If we don't have a test that the adjacent sibling combinator only applies to the adjacent sibling, we should launch an investigation into why not
  28. # [00:38] <jgraham> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/sibling-selector-001.htm
  29. # [00:38] <jgraham> Also, that test is lame
  30. # [00:38] <jgraham> Who uses green as a fail condition?
  31. # [00:38] <zcorpan> regarding atob(), is the compat problem for not throwing for whitespace or for not throwing for other garbage?
  32. # [00:39] <zcorpan> if it's for other garbage, we could allow whitespace but throw for other garbage
  33. # [00:39] * jgraham discovers <link rel="author" title="Microsoft" href="http://www.microsoft.com/">
  34. # [00:39] <zcorpan> heh
  35. # [00:40] <zcorpan> that test indeed covers the issue
  36. # [00:40] * Quits: jomn (~jomn@c80-216-13-27.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  37. # [00:42] <jgraham> I am quite worried by how strongly I react to tests that offend my sense of aesthetics
  38. # [00:43] <jgraham> Does it count as a work related injury if I can't see the text "The following line should be green\nFiller Text" without thinking "No, you should never use 'Filler Text' for the pass condition, that should be rewritten 'This text should be green'"?
  39. # [00:43] <zcorpan> yes
  40. # [00:45] * bfrohs would be worried if you *didn't* think that
  41. # [00:46] <zcorpan> my work injury is that i have a hard time resisting filing bugs (or equivalent as appropriate) when i find them, even if it's not related to browsers or even the web
  42. # [00:47] <zcorpan> the problem usually is finding out who i should report the bug *to*
  43. # [00:47] <jgraham> What about non-software?
  44. # [00:48] <zcorpan> yeah, non-software too
  45. # [00:49] <wilhelm> It's affecting my private life too. I try to file bugs on my friends. It usually doesn't have the desired effect.
  46. # [00:50] * Hixie files a bug on wilhelm to get a PC so he can play BC2 with all his friends instead of having to play on PS3 with wilhelm and PC with everyone else
  47. # [00:50] <zcorpan> e.g. if there's a sign that says that i can pay with mastercard but it only accepts visa, i feel an urge to make someone aware of the problem and fix the sign
  48. # [00:50] <benschwarz> zcorpan: if the @font-face is working, I'm happy for now
  49. # [00:50] <benschwarz> hah
  50. # [00:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: You will be slowly driven mad
  51. # [00:50] <benschwarz> Hixie: few things fixed overnight
  52. # [00:50] <wilhelm> Hixie: :P
  53. # [00:50] <Hixie> benschwarz: i saw
  54. # [00:50] <benschwarz> tracking pretty well I think
  55. # [00:51] <Hixie> benschwarz: looks good
  56. # [00:51] <zcorpan> but it's remarkable that employees of the company that governs the sign are totally uninterested in fixing the sign themselves or passing the information on to another employee who should be fixing the sign
  57. # [00:51] <jgraham> Also, I don't understand how the CSS tests (subset I looked at) turned out so bad. I mean they have http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html
  58. # [00:51] <jgraham> It's like the people read it but failed to understand important points
  59. # [00:52] <Hixie> anyone recall if i've invented terminology to mean "the Window or the WorkerGlobalScope, whichever is appropriate"?
  60. # [00:52] <Hixie> we have "cache host" for appcache, but that's Document or WGS
  61. # [00:54] * jgraham notes that Hixie's example tests on that document are not uniformly compliant to the document
  62. # [00:54] <jgraham> Or afaict uniformly demonstrating the thing that they intend
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  64. # [00:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: you should write a hack so that you can play on the PC on your end and wilhelm can play on the PS3 on his end
  65. # [00:55] <Hixie> that would be quite the hack
  66. # [00:55] <benschwarz> zcorpan: have you updated your special element thing to use the correct font now?
  67. # [00:56] * jgraham goes to bed before he finds anything else to make him unhappy
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  69. # [00:57] <zcorpan> benschwarz: no. i was going to ask you if you wanted to host a style sheet that i could point to in html5-elements so that the styles are up-to-date when you change stuff
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  71. # [00:58] <Hixie> jesus
  72. # [00:58] * Hixie reads the video content-type issue thread
  73. # [00:58] <Hixie> this bureaucracy is becoming ludicrous
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  75. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> "becoming"?
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  77. # [01:02] <Hixie> well it used to be that it wasted our time, but at least each time wasting resulting in movement forwards
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  79. # [01:02] <Hixie> now apparently we have to waste our time going sideways
  80. # [01:03] <Hixie> and we're likely to end up with our furst normative difference between the whatwg and w3c specs, with the w3c one requiring that UAs honour content types, despite only one UA doing it, and the WHATWG one doing what foolip suggests (and using abarth's sniff spec and ignoring content-type for <video>)
  81. # [01:04] <Hixie> though apparently this would then only be a temporary thing because a few months later the wg would do the same thing
  82. # [01:04] <Hixie> i mean, that's literally process for process' sake and not for progress' sake
  83. # [01:04] <Hixie> at least until now there was some indication that the process was intended to make progress as well
  84. # [01:05] <zcorpan> Hixie: that's not how i understand the situation: the bug was about an editorial issue, and foolip's CP is considered out of scope for the original bug and should instead be filed as a separate bug which you can choose to accept regardless of the outcome of the editorial issue
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  86. # [01:05] <Hixie> which julian would then object to
  87. # [01:05] <Hixie> and i'd have to revert it
  88. # [01:06] <zcorpan> did he say that he would object to it?
  89. # [01:06] <Hixie> i assume so
  90. # [01:06] <Hixie> he didn't say it, but i assume he would object
  91. # [01:06] <Hixie> otherwise why would he object now?
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  94. # [01:08] <zcorpan> maybe because the CP makes a substantive change for an editorial issue
  95. # [01:08] <Hixie> ok well then someone file the bug, i'll fix it, and then his issue will be moot and we can get on without worrying about process
  96. # [01:08] <zcorpan> have a pointer to foolip's CP?
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  98. # [01:09] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/NoVideoContentType
  99. # [01:09] <Hixie> though note that the chairs haven't actually said it's not valid and indeed still list it in issue-status
  100. # [01:10] <Hixie> so i'm very confused about whether it's valid or not
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  103. # [01:10] <Hixie> they even explicitly said foolip didn't have to retract it, iirc
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  111. # [01:22] <benschwarz> zcorpan: I can work something out for you. after the next week the mass changes will start to settle though
  112. # [01:22] <zcorpan> benschwarz: cool
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  114. # [01:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11984
  115. # [01:23] <benschwarz> Hixie: Is there a way to set a wildcart against a domain for appCache to continue to cache any resources that are used in a site for offline use?
  116. # [01:24] <Hixie> zcorpan: can you post on the thread just saying "i filed a bug for foolip"? that way i can reply saying i've done it
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  119. # [01:26] <zcorpan> done
  120. # [01:26] <Hixie> thanks
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  130. # [01:38] <zcorpan> nn
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  155. # [03:02] <Yuhong> syntax.whatwg.org seems to be dead.
  156. # [03:08] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  157. # [03:10] <abarth> Hixie: i updated the sniffing draft to have a hook for sniffing video specifically
  158. # [03:10] <abarth> Hixie: do you need one for other kinds of media?
  159. # [03:13] <abarth> i posted on the bug
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  178. # [04:01] <Yuhong> abarth: <!-- is not an indication of HTML. It is a generic SGML/XML comment.
  179. # [04:07] <Hixie> Yuhong: where did you get a link to syntax.whatwg.org?
  180. # [04:08] <Hixie> abarth: i think anne was asking for fonts, but media is all i need at this point. I'll add specific sniffing as a separate thing later, I don't honestly expect the text so far to remain out of the spec
  181. # [04:08] <Yuhong> Don't remember, but I was looking for the unofficial SGML declaration for HTML5.
  182. # [04:08] <Hixie> abarth: but thanks
  183. # [04:09] <Hixie> Yuhong: ah. There's no SGML declaration for HTML, HTML isn't anything to do with SGML any more
  184. # [04:09] <Yuhong> That is why I said "unofficial".
  185. # [04:10] <Yuhong> I think the main disadvantage of parsing HTML5 this way is the different error handling. For a web browser I wouldn't trust it.
  186. # [04:12] <Yuhong> It used to be on syntax.whatwg.org
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  188. # [04:15] <Yuhong> As a bonus, with a different SGML declaration, XHTML can be parsed with the same SGML parser thanks to XML being compatible with SGML!
  189. # [04:16] <Yuhong> Hixie: BTW, have you heard of mangleme?
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  200. # [04:28] <othermaciej> parsing HTML with an SGML parser...
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  267. # [10:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: shouldn't workers have ononline and onoffline event handlers too?
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  269. # [10:40] <annevk> haha
  270. # [10:40] <annevk> so zcorpan actually went ahead and raised the bug and Hixie fixed it
  271. # [10:41] <annevk> zcorpan, interesting observation on twitter btw
  272. # [10:42] <annevk> zcorpan, seems From-Origin is really quite useful
  273. # [10:42] <zcorpan> yeah
  274. # [10:42] <zcorpan> but i hate the name
  275. # [10:43] <annevk> if you think of something better
  276. # [10:44] <zcorpan> someone here suggested Restrict-Embedding-To or something like that
  277. # [10:44] <annevk> Embedding-Origin
  278. # [10:44] <zcorpan> wfm
  279. # [10:45] <zcorpan> or Embedding-Origins to allow multiple origins
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  281. # [10:45] <annevk> yeah, I guess at some point it should allow a comma-separated list
  282. # [10:45] <zcorpan> Embedding-Origins: http://developers.whatwg.org http://simon.html5.org
  283. # [10:45] <othermaciej> annevk: I think I am going to post to www-fonts or the font wg list proposing Restrict-Embedding (or From-Origin or whatever you want to call it)
  284. # [10:45] <othermaciej> instead of SOR
  285. # [10:45] <othermaciej> for all resource types
  286. # [10:46] <othermaciej> we'll see how that goes
  287. # [10:46] <zcorpan> cool
  288. # [10:46] <annevk> zcorpan, space-separated has different semantics for Origin / Access-Control-Allow-Origin
  289. # [10:46] <annevk> zcorpan, it means the redirect chain
  290. # [10:46] <zcorpan> annevk: oh
  291. # [10:46] <othermaciej> I will explain the three-way difference among linking, embedding and reading, and how the Web has historically treated them
  292. # [10:47] <othermaciej> I think it should have the same syntax (and rough semantics) as Access-Control-Allow-Origin
  293. # [10:47] <zcorpan> annevk: well, seems useful to be able to allow multiple origins to embed your stuff in some way without jumping through hoops
  294. # [10:47] <annevk> othermaciej, see pm
  295. # [10:47] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah, could be Embedding-Origins: same, http://example.com
  296. # [10:48] <zcorpan> +1
  297. # [10:48] <othermaciej> except that header missing means allow all, not deny all, of course
  298. # [10:48] <othermaciej> I don't think you should have to explicitly list same
  299. # [10:48] <othermaciej> same-origin embedding should always be allowed
  300. # [10:48] <othermaciej> is there a use case for denying it?
  301. # [10:49] <zcorpan> good point
  302. # [10:49] <annevk> othermaciej, you mean if you just specify Embedding-Origins same is implied?
  303. # [10:49] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah probably
  304. # [10:49] <Hixie> zcorpan: file a bug
  305. # [10:49] <annevk> wfm
  306. # [10:49] <Hixie> zcorpan: or send mail or something
  307. # [10:49] <othermaciej> Access-Control-Allow-Origins doesn;t have to list "same"
  308. # [10:49] <othermaciej> I mean, same-origin access is always allowed, and if the special header is present, then only those other headers are allowed access instead of all others
  309. # [10:50] <annevk> well, CORS is way different
  310. # [10:50] <annevk> CORS is about allowing, this is about denying
  311. # [10:50] <othermaciej> there's no way to deny same-origin reading
  312. # [10:50] <othermaciej> so I don't think there needs to be a way to deny same-origin embedding
  313. # [10:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: done
  314. # [10:51] <othermaciej> since you can always use reading to circumvent it anyway
  315. # [10:51] <annevk> yeah
  316. # [10:51] <othermaciej> having to list "same" is pretty much always what you want and having to include it is an inconvenience
  317. # [10:51] <annevk> but Embedding-Origins: same is nice
  318. # [10:51] <annevk> don't proxies sometimes strip empty headers?
  319. # [10:51] <othermaciej> I see, you want a way to say same-origin only
  320. # [10:52] <annevk> that is the most common case
  321. # [10:52] <othermaciej> I was thinking a CDN would be the most common use case, by volume of traffic served at least
  322. # [10:53] <othermaciej> anyway, "same" seems like a reasonable keyword for that
  323. # [10:53] <annevk> fair enough, but the "same" thing is what some font foundries want for their licenses
  324. # [10:53] <zcorpan> othermaciej: http://twitter.com/#!/zcorpan/status/33645906876174336
  325. # [10:53] <annevk> to require people serving it up with that
  326. # [10:53] <annevk> and yeah, it's also useful to protect against certain issues
  327. # [10:53] <othermaciej> I hope their licenses let people put a font on their own CDN to serve to their own main domain
  328. # [10:53] <annevk> and might be able to replace x-frame-options
  329. # [10:54] <othermaciej> as far as name bikeshedding, may I suggest Embed-Only-From-Origins:
  330. # [10:54] <othermaciej> if that's not too long
  331. # [10:54] <annevk> I don't really mind about the name that much
  332. # [10:54] <othermaciej> seems to be clear about what it does, and doesn't falsely imply that if you remove it, no embedding is allowed
  333. # [10:55] <annevk> it's no longer than Access-Control-Allow-Origin I think...
  334. # [10:55] <annevk> anyway, time to go skiing; ttyl
  335. # [10:55] <othermaciej> later!
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  342. # [11:33] <abarth|afk> Embedding-Origins seems like something that should be part of CSP
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  348. # [12:00] <othermaciej> doesn't seem related to the rest of CSP to me
  349. # [12:00] <othermaciej> although, I don't know that much about CSP
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  353. # [12:18] <abarth> compare with frame-ancestors
  354. # [12:18] <abarth> which is a CSP directive
  355. # [12:18] <abarth> indicating which contexts can embed the resource
  356. # [12:18] <abarth> as an iframe
  357. # [12:25] <othermaciej> the rest of CSP doesn't really make sense for an image or a font
  358. # [12:27] <othermaciej> while it does fit with the CSP theme of denying things that are normally allowed and converting to a whitelist, it seems like overkill to use a policy language for hotlinking prevention
  359. # [12:27] <othermaciej> a key goal here is to make it substantially easier than checking an incoming Referer or Origin header
  360. # [12:29] <abarth> the counter argument that folks will make is that we're making our lives harder by proliferating policy locations
  361. # [12:29] <abarth> i'm not sure whether its that big a deal
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  364. # [12:32] <othermaciej> I suspect when/if the suggestion gets posted on the fonts lists, that "it should be based on CSP" will not be one of the top 5 objections
  365. # [12:32] <abarth> :)
  366. # [12:32] <abarth> sure
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  368. # [12:33] <othermaciej> I guess the reasons I am wary are:
  369. # [12:33] <abarth> but if/when you ask the mozilla folks if they'd like to implement it, i suspect it will be on their list
  370. # [12:33] <othermaciej> a) hotlinking prevention is somewhat tangention to security proper
  371. # [12:33] <othermaciej> *tangential
  372. # [12:33] <othermaciej> b) tying it to something complicated will delay progress and cut against the font vendors' desire for a solution in the short term
  373. # [12:35] <abarth> i should clarify that you don't really need to convince me
  374. # [12:35] <othermaciej> I just wanted to explain the grounds for my position
  375. # [12:36] <abarth> in some sense, this is also related to CORS
  376. # [12:37] <abarth> it's like giving access control information without being asked :)
  377. # [12:38] <abarth> i actually really like the idea
  378. # [12:38] <abarth> its super useful, especially for HTML pages
  379. # [12:39] <abarth> it would also be useful if it stopped embedding in a top-level frame
  380. # [12:40] <abarth> so that you could wall off the interior parts of your site from being linked to from outside your origin
  381. # [12:41] <abarth> i'd have to think more about that when i'm more awake
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  427. # [16:51] <karlcow> would it be possible to capture the full rendering context as a series of images? A kind of webkit2png with a timer. Aka save 24 images by second in order to save a CSS3 animation, canvas animation, etc. by frame and make it a video after.
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  450. # [18:49] <annevk> abarth, hey yt?
  451. # [18:49] <annevk> guess you might be sleeping
  452. # [18:49] <annevk> abarth, however, I did email font sniffing rules
  453. # [18:49] <annevk> abarth, http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/websec/current/msg00235.html
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  472. # [19:37] <jgraham> karlcow: All things are possible. But that is not possible from a normal security context
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  491. # [21:10] <Hixie> well, nobody can say i didn't predict julian's objection
  492. # [21:11] <boogyman> Julian can :P
  493. # [21:11] <tw2113> he didn't leak it in time
  494. # [21:11] <MikeSmith> good times
  495. # [21:12] <MikeSmith> makes it all worthwhile
  496. # [21:13] <MikeSmith> meanwhile somebody seems to have decided that epub 3.0 document aren't allowed to have SVG animations
  497. # [21:13] <MikeSmith> http://epub-revision.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/build/spec/epub30-contentdocs.html#sec-svg-restrictions
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  499. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Can has SVG fonts?
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  501. # [21:25] <MikeSmith> heh
  502. # [21:25] <MikeSmith> I imagine not
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  504. # [21:25] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I suggest writing a blog post about it
  505. # [21:25] <MikeSmith> title it whatever you want
  506. # [21:26] <MikeSmith> but make sure to use the word "myths"
  507. # [21:26] <Ms2ger> Not "considered harmful"?
  508. # [21:26] <MikeSmith> "Myths Not Considered Harmful" maybe
  509. # [21:27] <Ms2ger> 1. Unicorns
  510. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> spec change requests based on mythical problem cases that aren't actually problems in practice not considered harmful
  511. # [21:28] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@33.115.34.95.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: annevk)
  512. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> ...by Julian?
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  537. # [23:42] <MikeSmith> question over on #html5 - <realityking> likely stupid question, is there DOM API to determine the language of an element (kinda like the ::lang() CSS pseudo-class, only that I don't want to check against a given value).
  538. # [23:42] <MikeSmith> <realityking> looking at the lang property doesn't help, because it seems the value is not inherited (unlike CSS where it does)
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  540. # [23:44] <annevk> MikeSmith, matchesSelector() is what will allow that
  541. # [23:45] <annevk> though it won't return the language the element is in I suppose
  542. # [23:45] <annevk> just tells you whether or not it matches e.g. :lang(en)
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  544. # [23:47] <realityking> annevk: thanks for trying to answer my question (language of an element)
  545. # [23:48] <realityking> from my understanding using matchesSelector() I can check whether an element would be included when going for a certain selector
  546. # [23:49] <realityking> That is quite helpful, but not quite what I'm looking for
  547. # [23:49] <realityking> I'd like to read out the language and process it
  548. # [23:50] <annevk> should be able to get it by walking up the tree
  549. # [23:50] <realityking> true
  550. # [23:50] <annevk> though you miss out on encapsulating data
  551. # [23:50] <realityking> that's what I'm doing
  552. # [23:51] <realityking> I was just surprised that the CSS :lang() selectors considers that language can be inherited, but there is no property on the element giving me that information
  553. # [23:51] <annevk> in retrospect .lang should have given you that
  554. # [23:52] <Hixie> why do you need it? (if it's a good use case, we might just add a way to do it)
  555. # [23:52] <realityking> annevk: from my testing that only works when the lang attribute is specified on that element
  556. # [23:53] <annevk> yeah, I meant if we designed it today
  557. # [23:55] <realityking> Hixie: HTML snippets send via AJAX and I need to know their language
  558. # [23:55] <Hixie> ah ok
  559. # [23:55] <Hixie> then just walking up the DOM should work fine
  560. # [23:55] <realityking> yeah it does
  561. # [23:55] <Hixie> just walk up the parentNode chain until hasAttribute('lang') returns true
  562. # [23:55] <realityking> just hoped there is a better solution that I missed
  563. # [23:56] <realityking> annevk: I guess we're 10 years late with that
  564. # [23:57] <realityking> Certainly not a feature one needs everyday
  565. # Session Close: Sun Feb 06 00:00:00 2011

The end :)