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- # Session Start: Sat Feb 05 00:00:00 2011
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
- # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Ah, I'm not.
- # [00:00] <TabAtkins> (Haven't restarted in a while.)
- # [00:05] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.117)
- # [00:11] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
- # [00:13] * zcorpan filed http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=72005
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- # [00:15] * zcorpan chooses to not work around the issue on his mom's dog's site and instead wait for the bug to be fixed
- # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Oh, wow, *that's* the issue? We broke the adjacent sibling combinator? Wtf.
- # [00:18] <TabAtkins> (Also, file at bugs.webkit.org, please? You can crosslink the bugs, if you want.)
- # [00:20] <zcorpan> done
- # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Danke.
- # [00:22] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.143.140) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
- # [00:23] <zcorpan> hey, it's a site compat bug! you better go fix it :)
- # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Actually, it almost certainly *is* a site compat bug.
- # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Breaking combinators is no fun.
- # [00:28] * jgraham is somewhat surprised you don't have regression tests covering that
- # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Me too.
- # [00:29] <jgraham> Although maybe it is more complex than I think?
- # [00:30] <zcorpan> jgraham: do *we* have regression tests covering that?
- # [00:30] <jgraham> zcorpan: I expect that depends how broken it is
- # [00:31] <jgraham> I might imagine that the CSS2.1 testsuite covers it
- # [00:31] <jgraham> If not, this is the ideal time for someone to make a test (although I guess it would have to go into the Selectors 3 TS)
- # [00:33] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/827 shows the bug as well
- # [00:35] <jgraham> If we don't have a test that the adjacent sibling combinator only applies to the adjacent sibling, we should launch an investigation into why not
- # [00:38] <jgraham> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/sibling-selector-001.htm
- # [00:38] <jgraham> Also, that test is lame
- # [00:38] <jgraham> Who uses green as a fail condition?
- # [00:38] <zcorpan> regarding atob(), is the compat problem for not throwing for whitespace or for not throwing for other garbage?
- # [00:39] <zcorpan> if it's for other garbage, we could allow whitespace but throw for other garbage
- # [00:39] * jgraham discovers <link rel="author" title="Microsoft" href="http://www.microsoft.com/">
- # [00:39] <zcorpan> heh
- # [00:40] <zcorpan> that test indeed covers the issue
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- # [00:42] <jgraham> I am quite worried by how strongly I react to tests that offend my sense of aesthetics
- # [00:43] <jgraham> Does it count as a work related injury if I can't see the text "The following line should be green\nFiller Text" without thinking "No, you should never use 'Filler Text' for the pass condition, that should be rewritten 'This text should be green'"?
- # [00:43] <zcorpan> yes
- # [00:45] * bfrohs would be worried if you *didn't* think that
- # [00:46] <zcorpan> my work injury is that i have a hard time resisting filing bugs (or equivalent as appropriate) when i find them, even if it's not related to browsers or even the web
- # [00:47] <zcorpan> the problem usually is finding out who i should report the bug *to*
- # [00:47] <jgraham> What about non-software?
- # [00:48] <zcorpan> yeah, non-software too
- # [00:49] <wilhelm> It's affecting my private life too. I try to file bugs on my friends. It usually doesn't have the desired effect.
- # [00:50] * Hixie files a bug on wilhelm to get a PC so he can play BC2 with all his friends instead of having to play on PS3 with wilhelm and PC with everyone else
- # [00:50] <zcorpan> e.g. if there's a sign that says that i can pay with mastercard but it only accepts visa, i feel an urge to make someone aware of the problem and fix the sign
- # [00:50] <benschwarz> zcorpan: if the @font-face is working, I'm happy for now
- # [00:50] <benschwarz> hah
- # [00:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: You will be slowly driven mad
- # [00:50] <benschwarz> Hixie: few things fixed overnight
- # [00:50] <wilhelm> Hixie: :P
- # [00:50] <Hixie> benschwarz: i saw
- # [00:50] <benschwarz> tracking pretty well I think
- # [00:51] <Hixie> benschwarz: looks good
- # [00:51] <zcorpan> but it's remarkable that employees of the company that governs the sign are totally uninterested in fixing the sign themselves or passing the information on to another employee who should be fixing the sign
- # [00:51] <jgraham> Also, I don't understand how the CSS tests (subset I looked at) turned out so bad. I mean they have http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html
- # [00:51] <jgraham> It's like the people read it but failed to understand important points
- # [00:52] <Hixie> anyone recall if i've invented terminology to mean "the Window or the WorkerGlobalScope, whichever is appropriate"?
- # [00:52] <Hixie> we have "cache host" for appcache, but that's Document or WGS
- # [00:54] * jgraham notes that Hixie's example tests on that document are not uniformly compliant to the document
- # [00:54] <jgraham> Or afaict uniformly demonstrating the thing that they intend
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- # [00:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: you should write a hack so that you can play on the PC on your end and wilhelm can play on the PS3 on his end
- # [00:55] <Hixie> that would be quite the hack
- # [00:55] <benschwarz> zcorpan: have you updated your special element thing to use the correct font now?
- # [00:56] * jgraham goes to bed before he finds anything else to make him unhappy
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- # [00:57] <zcorpan> benschwarz: no. i was going to ask you if you wanted to host a style sheet that i could point to in html5-elements so that the styles are up-to-date when you change stuff
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- # [00:58] <Hixie> jesus
- # [00:58] * Hixie reads the video content-type issue thread
- # [00:58] <Hixie> this bureaucracy is becoming ludicrous
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- # [01:01] <TabAtkins> "becoming"?
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- # [01:02] <Hixie> well it used to be that it wasted our time, but at least each time wasting resulting in movement forwards
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- # [01:02] <Hixie> now apparently we have to waste our time going sideways
- # [01:03] <Hixie> and we're likely to end up with our furst normative difference between the whatwg and w3c specs, with the w3c one requiring that UAs honour content types, despite only one UA doing it, and the WHATWG one doing what foolip suggests (and using abarth's sniff spec and ignoring content-type for <video>)
- # [01:04] <Hixie> though apparently this would then only be a temporary thing because a few months later the wg would do the same thing
- # [01:04] <Hixie> i mean, that's literally process for process' sake and not for progress' sake
- # [01:04] <Hixie> at least until now there was some indication that the process was intended to make progress as well
- # [01:05] <zcorpan> Hixie: that's not how i understand the situation: the bug was about an editorial issue, and foolip's CP is considered out of scope for the original bug and should instead be filed as a separate bug which you can choose to accept regardless of the outcome of the editorial issue
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- # [01:05] <Hixie> which julian would then object to
- # [01:05] <Hixie> and i'd have to revert it
- # [01:06] <zcorpan> did he say that he would object to it?
- # [01:06] <Hixie> i assume so
- # [01:06] <Hixie> he didn't say it, but i assume he would object
- # [01:06] <Hixie> otherwise why would he object now?
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- # [01:08] <zcorpan> maybe because the CP makes a substantive change for an editorial issue
- # [01:08] <Hixie> ok well then someone file the bug, i'll fix it, and then his issue will be moot and we can get on without worrying about process
- # [01:08] <zcorpan> have a pointer to foolip's CP?
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- # [01:09] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/NoVideoContentType
- # [01:09] <Hixie> though note that the chairs haven't actually said it's not valid and indeed still list it in issue-status
- # [01:10] <Hixie> so i'm very confused about whether it's valid or not
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- # [01:10] <Hixie> they even explicitly said foolip didn't have to retract it, iirc
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- # [01:22] <benschwarz> zcorpan: I can work something out for you. after the next week the mass changes will start to settle though
- # [01:22] <zcorpan> benschwarz: cool
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- # [01:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11984
- # [01:23] <benschwarz> Hixie: Is there a way to set a wildcart against a domain for appCache to continue to cache any resources that are used in a site for offline use?
- # [01:24] <Hixie> zcorpan: can you post on the thread just saying "i filed a bug for foolip"? that way i can reply saying i've done it
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- # [01:26] <zcorpan> done
- # [01:26] <Hixie> thanks
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- # [01:38] <zcorpan> nn
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- # [03:02] <Yuhong> syntax.whatwg.org seems to be dead.
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- # [03:10] <abarth> Hixie: i updated the sniffing draft to have a hook for sniffing video specifically
- # [03:10] <abarth> Hixie: do you need one for other kinds of media?
- # [03:13] <abarth> i posted on the bug
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- # [04:01] <Yuhong> abarth: <!-- is not an indication of HTML. It is a generic SGML/XML comment.
- # [04:07] <Hixie> Yuhong: where did you get a link to syntax.whatwg.org?
- # [04:08] <Hixie> abarth: i think anne was asking for fonts, but media is all i need at this point. I'll add specific sniffing as a separate thing later, I don't honestly expect the text so far to remain out of the spec
- # [04:08] <Yuhong> Don't remember, but I was looking for the unofficial SGML declaration for HTML5.
- # [04:08] <Hixie> abarth: but thanks
- # [04:09] <Hixie> Yuhong: ah. There's no SGML declaration for HTML, HTML isn't anything to do with SGML any more
- # [04:09] <Yuhong> That is why I said "unofficial".
- # [04:10] <Yuhong> I think the main disadvantage of parsing HTML5 this way is the different error handling. For a web browser I wouldn't trust it.
- # [04:12] <Yuhong> It used to be on syntax.whatwg.org
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- # [04:15] <Yuhong> As a bonus, with a different SGML declaration, XHTML can be parsed with the same SGML parser thanks to XML being compatible with SGML!
- # [04:16] <Yuhong> Hixie: BTW, have you heard of mangleme?
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- # [04:28] <othermaciej> parsing HTML with an SGML parser...
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- # [10:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: shouldn't workers have ononline and onoffline event handlers too?
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- # [10:40] <annevk> haha
- # [10:40] <annevk> so zcorpan actually went ahead and raised the bug and Hixie fixed it
- # [10:41] <annevk> zcorpan, interesting observation on twitter btw
- # [10:42] <annevk> zcorpan, seems From-Origin is really quite useful
- # [10:42] <zcorpan> yeah
- # [10:42] <zcorpan> but i hate the name
- # [10:43] <annevk> if you think of something better
- # [10:44] <zcorpan> someone here suggested Restrict-Embedding-To or something like that
- # [10:44] <annevk> Embedding-Origin
- # [10:44] <zcorpan> wfm
- # [10:45] <zcorpan> or Embedding-Origins to allow multiple origins
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- # [10:45] <annevk> yeah, I guess at some point it should allow a comma-separated list
- # [10:45] <zcorpan> Embedding-Origins: http://developers.whatwg.org http://simon.html5.org
- # [10:45] <othermaciej> annevk: I think I am going to post to www-fonts or the font wg list proposing Restrict-Embedding (or From-Origin or whatever you want to call it)
- # [10:45] <othermaciej> instead of SOR
- # [10:45] <othermaciej> for all resource types
- # [10:46] <othermaciej> we'll see how that goes
- # [10:46] <zcorpan> cool
- # [10:46] <annevk> zcorpan, space-separated has different semantics for Origin / Access-Control-Allow-Origin
- # [10:46] <annevk> zcorpan, it means the redirect chain
- # [10:46] <zcorpan> annevk: oh
- # [10:46] <othermaciej> I will explain the three-way difference among linking, embedding and reading, and how the Web has historically treated them
- # [10:47] <othermaciej> I think it should have the same syntax (and rough semantics) as Access-Control-Allow-Origin
- # [10:47] <zcorpan> annevk: well, seems useful to be able to allow multiple origins to embed your stuff in some way without jumping through hoops
- # [10:47] <annevk> othermaciej, see pm
- # [10:47] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah, could be Embedding-Origins: same, http://example.com
- # [10:48] <zcorpan> +1
- # [10:48] <othermaciej> except that header missing means allow all, not deny all, of course
- # [10:48] <othermaciej> I don't think you should have to explicitly list same
- # [10:48] <othermaciej> same-origin embedding should always be allowed
- # [10:48] <othermaciej> is there a use case for denying it?
- # [10:49] <zcorpan> good point
- # [10:49] <annevk> othermaciej, you mean if you just specify Embedding-Origins same is implied?
- # [10:49] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah probably
- # [10:49] <Hixie> zcorpan: file a bug
- # [10:49] <annevk> wfm
- # [10:49] <Hixie> zcorpan: or send mail or something
- # [10:49] <othermaciej> Access-Control-Allow-Origins doesn;t have to list "same"
- # [10:49] <othermaciej> I mean, same-origin access is always allowed, and if the special header is present, then only those other headers are allowed access instead of all others
- # [10:50] <annevk> well, CORS is way different
- # [10:50] <annevk> CORS is about allowing, this is about denying
- # [10:50] <othermaciej> there's no way to deny same-origin reading
- # [10:50] <othermaciej> so I don't think there needs to be a way to deny same-origin embedding
- # [10:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: done
- # [10:51] <othermaciej> since you can always use reading to circumvent it anyway
- # [10:51] <annevk> yeah
- # [10:51] <othermaciej> having to list "same" is pretty much always what you want and having to include it is an inconvenience
- # [10:51] <annevk> but Embedding-Origins: same is nice
- # [10:51] <annevk> don't proxies sometimes strip empty headers?
- # [10:51] <othermaciej> I see, you want a way to say same-origin only
- # [10:52] <annevk> that is the most common case
- # [10:52] <othermaciej> I was thinking a CDN would be the most common use case, by volume of traffic served at least
- # [10:53] <othermaciej> anyway, "same" seems like a reasonable keyword for that
- # [10:53] <annevk> fair enough, but the "same" thing is what some font foundries want for their licenses
- # [10:53] <zcorpan> othermaciej: http://twitter.com/#!/zcorpan/status/33645906876174336
- # [10:53] <annevk> to require people serving it up with that
- # [10:53] <annevk> and yeah, it's also useful to protect against certain issues
- # [10:53] <othermaciej> I hope their licenses let people put a font on their own CDN to serve to their own main domain
- # [10:53] <annevk> and might be able to replace x-frame-options
- # [10:54] <othermaciej> as far as name bikeshedding, may I suggest Embed-Only-From-Origins:
- # [10:54] <othermaciej> if that's not too long
- # [10:54] <annevk> I don't really mind about the name that much
- # [10:54] <othermaciej> seems to be clear about what it does, and doesn't falsely imply that if you remove it, no embedding is allowed
- # [10:55] <annevk> it's no longer than Access-Control-Allow-Origin I think...
- # [10:55] <annevk> anyway, time to go skiing; ttyl
- # [10:55] <othermaciej> later!
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- # [11:33] <abarth|afk> Embedding-Origins seems like something that should be part of CSP
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- # [12:00] <othermaciej> doesn't seem related to the rest of CSP to me
- # [12:00] <othermaciej> although, I don't know that much about CSP
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- # [12:18] <abarth> compare with frame-ancestors
- # [12:18] <abarth> which is a CSP directive
- # [12:18] <abarth> indicating which contexts can embed the resource
- # [12:18] <abarth> as an iframe
- # [12:25] <othermaciej> the rest of CSP doesn't really make sense for an image or a font
- # [12:27] <othermaciej> while it does fit with the CSP theme of denying things that are normally allowed and converting to a whitelist, it seems like overkill to use a policy language for hotlinking prevention
- # [12:27] <othermaciej> a key goal here is to make it substantially easier than checking an incoming Referer or Origin header
- # [12:29] <abarth> the counter argument that folks will make is that we're making our lives harder by proliferating policy locations
- # [12:29] <abarth> i'm not sure whether its that big a deal
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- # [12:32] <othermaciej> I suspect when/if the suggestion gets posted on the fonts lists, that "it should be based on CSP" will not be one of the top 5 objections
- # [12:32] <abarth> :)
- # [12:32] <abarth> sure
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- # [12:33] <othermaciej> I guess the reasons I am wary are:
- # [12:33] <abarth> but if/when you ask the mozilla folks if they'd like to implement it, i suspect it will be on their list
- # [12:33] <othermaciej> a) hotlinking prevention is somewhat tangention to security proper
- # [12:33] <othermaciej> *tangential
- # [12:33] <othermaciej> b) tying it to something complicated will delay progress and cut against the font vendors' desire for a solution in the short term
- # [12:35] <abarth> i should clarify that you don't really need to convince me
- # [12:35] <othermaciej> I just wanted to explain the grounds for my position
- # [12:36] <abarth> in some sense, this is also related to CORS
- # [12:37] <abarth> it's like giving access control information without being asked :)
- # [12:38] <abarth> i actually really like the idea
- # [12:38] <abarth> its super useful, especially for HTML pages
- # [12:39] <abarth> it would also be useful if it stopped embedding in a top-level frame
- # [12:40] <abarth> so that you could wall off the interior parts of your site from being linked to from outside your origin
- # [12:41] <abarth> i'd have to think more about that when i'm more awake
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- # [16:51] <karlcow> would it be possible to capture the full rendering context as a series of images? A kind of webkit2png with a timer. Aka save 24 images by second in order to save a CSS3 animation, canvas animation, etc. by frame and make it a video after.
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- # [18:49] <annevk> abarth, hey yt?
- # [18:49] <annevk> guess you might be sleeping
- # [18:49] <annevk> abarth, however, I did email font sniffing rules
- # [18:49] <annevk> abarth, http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/websec/current/msg00235.html
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- # [19:37] <jgraham> karlcow: All things are possible. But that is not possible from a normal security context
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- # [21:10] <Hixie> well, nobody can say i didn't predict julian's objection
- # [21:11] <boogyman> Julian can :P
- # [21:11] <tw2113> he didn't leak it in time
- # [21:11] <MikeSmith> good times
- # [21:12] <MikeSmith> makes it all worthwhile
- # [21:13] <MikeSmith> meanwhile somebody seems to have decided that epub 3.0 document aren't allowed to have SVG animations
- # [21:13] <MikeSmith> http://epub-revision.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/build/spec/epub30-contentdocs.html#sec-svg-restrictions
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- # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Can has SVG fonts?
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- # [21:25] <MikeSmith> heh
- # [21:25] <MikeSmith> I imagine not
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- # [21:25] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I suggest writing a blog post about it
- # [21:25] <MikeSmith> title it whatever you want
- # [21:26] <MikeSmith> but make sure to use the word "myths"
- # [21:26] <Ms2ger> Not "considered harmful"?
- # [21:26] <MikeSmith> "Myths Not Considered Harmful" maybe
- # [21:27] <Ms2ger> 1. Unicorns
- # [21:28] <MikeSmith> spec change requests based on mythical problem cases that aren't actually problems in practice not considered harmful
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- # [21:29] <Ms2ger> ...by Julian?
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- # [23:42] <MikeSmith> question over on #html5 - <realityking> likely stupid question, is there DOM API to determine the language of an element (kinda like the ::lang() CSS pseudo-class, only that I don't want to check against a given value).
- # [23:42] <MikeSmith> <realityking> looking at the lang property doesn't help, because it seems the value is not inherited (unlike CSS where it does)
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- # [23:44] <annevk> MikeSmith, matchesSelector() is what will allow that
- # [23:45] <annevk> though it won't return the language the element is in I suppose
- # [23:45] <annevk> just tells you whether or not it matches e.g. :lang(en)
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- # [23:47] <realityking> annevk: thanks for trying to answer my question (language of an element)
- # [23:48] <realityking> from my understanding using matchesSelector() I can check whether an element would be included when going for a certain selector
- # [23:49] <realityking> That is quite helpful, but not quite what I'm looking for
- # [23:49] <realityking> I'd like to read out the language and process it
- # [23:50] <annevk> should be able to get it by walking up the tree
- # [23:50] <realityking> true
- # [23:50] <annevk> though you miss out on encapsulating data
- # [23:50] <realityking> that's what I'm doing
- # [23:51] <realityking> I was just surprised that the CSS :lang() selectors considers that language can be inherited, but there is no property on the element giving me that information
- # [23:51] <annevk> in retrospect .lang should have given you that
- # [23:52] <Hixie> why do you need it? (if it's a good use case, we might just add a way to do it)
- # [23:52] <realityking> annevk: from my testing that only works when the lang attribute is specified on that element
- # [23:53] <annevk> yeah, I meant if we designed it today
- # [23:55] <realityking> Hixie: HTML snippets send via AJAX and I need to know their language
- # [23:55] <Hixie> ah ok
- # [23:55] <Hixie> then just walking up the DOM should work fine
- # [23:55] <realityking> yeah it does
- # [23:55] <Hixie> just walk up the parentNode chain until hasAttribute('lang') returns true
- # [23:55] <realityking> just hoped there is a better solution that I missed
- # [23:56] <realityking> annevk: I guess we're 10 years late with that
- # [23:57] <realityking> Certainly not a feature one needs everyday
- # Session Close: Sun Feb 06 00:00:00 2011
The end :)