/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-09 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Feb 09 00:00:01 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:04] <wpollock> key: so what can be done about it?
# [00:05] <key> i don't know if anything needs to be done about it. i like that there isn't a single enforced encoding
# [00:05] <key> i like that there's, rather, an infrastructure allowing the use an declaration of an arbitrary set of encodings
# [00:05] <key> to me that seems more open
# [00:06] <Philip`> There are pages that declare a correct HTTP-level charset and an incorrect HTML-level charset, so you can't change the behaviour of browsers without causing some previously-working pages to stop working, so they won't make that change
# [00:06] <wpollock> What I mean is, who do we go about changing the HTML standard, so the charset defined in the document overrides one set in the HTTP header?
# [00:06] <Philip`> (regardless of whether it makes logical sense or not)
# [00:06] <TabAtkins> wpollock: First, establish that what you propose is web-compatible. I expect this will be the difficult part.
# [00:07] <wpollock> Okay, but to whom do I submit my proposals? I have no standing. (Maybe this is a lost cause and I should just give it up before I annoy everyone?)
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# [00:07] <TabAtkins> Send email to the WHATWG list.
# [00:08] <key> wpollock: improvement suggestions are never annoying to sane people
# [00:08] <key> only to nazis and goblins
# [00:08] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> Your standing is irrelevant, though the opinions of browser vendors do have somewhat more weight than the opinions of other people in practice (since they control what's in the browser).
# [00:08] <key> i'd bypass whatwg and suggest it to a W3 or webstandards.org list
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> But it's very likely that what you're proposing isn't web-compatible, so it can't be changed.
# [00:09] <key> TabAtkins: why would it not be web compatible? i can see the http header being overridden by the document
# [00:09] <key> hell, if anything it's more web compatible, considering how elements can carry a lang attribute to mix and match languages
# [00:09] <key> same thing should exist for encodings, no?
# [00:11] <Philip`> Users get very unhappy when pages that previously worked stop working, so the most important compatibility requirement is to avoid that happening
# [00:11] <Philip`> It doesn't matter much if some previously incorrect pages start working, because users probably weren't using those pages anyway (given that they were broken)
# [00:12] <key> what rsa key length is the common as of late?
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# [00:12] <key> is it still 2048 or larger?
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# [00:19] <webr3> we typically use 2048 or 4096
# [00:20] <wpollock> Thanks, I will do that. Suggestions can be annoying if made by ignorant (if well-intentioned) people. I will make the two proposals, the second to allows charset attribute on any block level content. Thanks for your time!
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# [00:28] <realityking> Mixing charsets inside one document sound like trouble to me.
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# [00:28] <key> really?
# [00:28] <Philip`> Extremely
# [00:29] <key> but wouldn't you need to? (read: UTN #22)
# [00:29] <key> (http://unicode.org/notes/tn22/)
# [00:29] <Philip`> Having the encoding indicators being encoded in their own encodings is always trouble
# [00:29] <key> ah yea, true
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# [00:30] <Philip`> and having end-of-encoding indicators encoded in that encoding sounds worse
# [00:30] <Philip`> and probably incompatible with efficient buffered decoder implementations
# [00:31] <TabAtkins> What does UTN22 have to do with multiple encodings?
# [00:32] * Philip` doesn't understand why people would look at the complexity of the current character encoding system and decide that the solution to its problems is to add more complexity :-)
# [00:37] <karlcow> http://norman.walsh.name/2011/02/08/html-xml
# [00:37] <key> omg i need to get high so bad
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# [00:37] <TabAtkins> Okay, yeah, key's going back on ignore. Goddammit.
# [00:37] <key> you're such a little bitch Tab
# [00:38] <miketaylr> O_o
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# [00:40] <AryehGregor> key, didn't you say you'd only flame us once a week? You have to wait till Monday.
# [00:41] <key> AryehGregor: yea, and i am intent on keeping that agreement, but Tab flipped out for something totally innocuous
# [00:41] <key> many people self medicate legally and productively with 'teh ganja
# [00:42] <key> AryehGregor: can i get your input on: http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua
# [00:42] <key> (btw, maybe Tab was tempted by what i said, being a former closet stoner)
# [00:43] <key> i'll be more sensitive to his addiction issues in the future
# [00:45] <AryehGregor> What's the procedure for getting tests approved again?
# [00:45] <TabAtkins> Send an email to the list.
# [00:45] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
# [00:45] <AryehGregor> That seems inefficient, and annoying to everyone on the list. At least it would be if we had a nontrivial number of tests being written.
# [00:46] <AryehGregor> key, no real opinion.
# [00:48] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
# [00:50] * TabAtkins reads the list archives.
# [00:51] <TabAtkins> Sigh, key, don't be stupid. Alcohol is roughly equivalent to marijuana. I like to drink. However, I don't announce that I totally need to get drunk, because it's stupid and of no interest to *anyone ever*. You were already on my shitlist for trolling, so hearing you make a stupid comment like that for no reason was adequate justification to perma-ignore you.
# [00:51] <TabAtkins> (Note: you're still ignored. Respond if you want, I don't care.)
# [00:52] <Hixie> man, you're not doing a good job of ignoring him :-P
# [00:52] <TabAtkins> Hah, indeed.
# [00:52] <AryehGregor> This is why I never /ignore people.
# [00:52] <AryehGregor> Waste of effort.
# [00:53] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Really? I find it useful. I still have mookid ignored, for example, which has been productive the last few times he's showed up.
# [00:53] <hober> I don't /ignore because I think it's important for channel regulars / ops to see what new entrants would see, to help cut down on crap
# [00:54] <TabAtkins> We don't have an op, though, and can't meaningfully reduce crap.
# [00:55] <Hixie> actually we do
# [00:55] <TabAtkins> Oh right, we gained one a while ago.
# [00:55] <Hixie> but it would be sad to kick people since we've gone 8 years without doing so
# [00:55] <Hixie> even on the list i've only ever banned like 2 people
# [00:55] <Hixie> and neither for more than 2 weeks
# [00:57] <hober> yeah, I'm one of the ops, so just let me know when things get really out of hand :)
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# [01:01] <key> TabAtkins: i see your point, except you forget we're all humans here, not workbots. i come from old school IRC, where people actually had conversations and got to know each other
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> We do that.
# [01:02] <Hixie> speak for yourself
# [01:02] <Hixie> i'm a bot
# [01:02] <Hixie> just ask anyone
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> Generally spam by channel regulars is tolerated if no one is trying to use the channel for anything serious at the time.
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> I mean, I spent quite a while yesterday talking about group theory here.
# [01:03] <Hixie> yeah dude
# [01:03] <Hixie> why didn't we ban you
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> But it's more annoying if someone says spammy stuff who doesn't have a substantial history of productive contributions.
# [01:03] <key> you use the term spam too loosely there
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> Deliberately.
# [01:03] <key> you're incorrect in your use
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> It's a valid colloquialism.
# [01:05] <key> amongst sloppy noobs
# [01:05] <AryehGregor> Okay, whatever.
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# [01:09] <karlcow> Ice cream - 22 CAD - every flavours at http://iceshop.example.com/
# [01:09] <paul_irish> the lack of ice cream at that URL is a supreme let-down, karl. :(
# [01:09] <karlcow> ;)
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# [01:10] <karlcow> example.com, example.org, example.net are my favorite URI space. You can define anything on them, they will be always persistent as long as they are reserved domains
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# [01:35] <bga_> http://demin.ws/norcpu/norcpu.html
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# [01:51] <Hixie> http://parsetree.validator.nu/ and http://james.html5.org/parsetree.html are both gone :-(
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# [05:38] <Sirisian> I have question. Is the Dom Level 3 Events implemented by any browser?
# [05:40] <Sirisian> oh wait IE9 hmm
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# [05:44] <karlcow> http://mir.aculo.us/2011/02/08/visualizing-webkits-hardware-acceleration/
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# [06:12] <paul_irish> karlcow: http://peter.sh/experiments/chromium-command-line-switches/#show-composited-layer-borders
# [06:13] <paul_irish> and --show-paint-rects .. both very interesting
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# [07:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Using_the_Mozilla_JavaScript_interface_to_XSL_Transformations
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# [09:29] * jgraham is scared of the idea that the DOM should be unicode clean
# [09:29] <jgraham> Seems like a big perf. concern for no gain
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# [09:30] <annevk> heh, I used to learn from books by David Flanagan and now he's using my work
# [09:31] <annevk> jgraham, the DOM isn't "Unicode-clean"
# [09:31] <jgraham> annevk: I know
# [09:31] <jgraham> But Hixie wants it to be
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# [09:32] <jgraham> "That JS uses UTF-16 is a design mistake, but not one that we need to propagate
# [09:32] <jgraham> to the entire platform, nor one that we need to enforce on other languages
# [09:32] <jgraham> should they ever be added to the platform. As such, the DOM should be
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# [09:33] <othermaciej> jgraham: you got cut off there
# [09:33] <othermaciej> what does "unicode clean" mean?
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# [09:33] <annevk> it means no surrogates
# [09:34] <jgraham> othermaciej: Did I? Should end "UTF-16."
# [09:34] <annevk> basically
# [09:34] <jgraham> What annevk said
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# [09:34] <othermaciej> I don't even understand what that proposal means
# [09:34] <othermaciej> jgraham: "UTF-16" doesn't seem like a logical ending to the paragraph you were quoting
# [09:35] <jgraham> othermaciej: See Bug 11298
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# [09:35] <othermaciej> the last bit I saw was "should they ever be added to the platform. As such, the DOM should be"
# [09:35] <jgraham> "Unicode-clean, not UTF-16."
# [09:36] <jgraham> It feels like sanitizing every DOMString is a huge amount of effort for no gain
# [09:36] <annevk> othermaciej, basically Hixie thinks that for most "string" operations you should get characters out of the string (by replacing surrogates with U+FFFD) before doing things with the string
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# [09:37] <othermaciej> I see, so other than the minor problems that JS string operations don't work like that and no other DOM operation works like that, neat idea
# [09:38] <annevk> xhr.send() works like that, as you need to convert the data to UTF-8
# [09:38] <annevk> but that's all I can remember
# [09:38] <jgraham> Right, doing sanitization at the boundaries makes sense
# [09:39] <jgraham> Doing it on every internal operation, not so much
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# [09:58] <annevk> jgraham, you should get james.html5.org back up
# [09:58] <jgraham> Yes, I should
# [09:58] <annevk> it seems at least http://james.html5.org/parsetree.html was used
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# [09:58] <jgraham> That needs to be updated, so I will do both
# [10:00] <annevk> sweet
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# [10:13] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think Hixie is wrong to want the DOM to be Unicode clean
# [10:13] <hsivonen> we should stop him before specs end up with too much damage
# [10:14] * hsivonen mumbles about the SVG API that supposedly counted Unicode characters. FAIL!
# [10:14] <annevk> it's sort of similar to the i18n drive to canonicalize everything
# [10:14] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't want to even think of that drive
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# [10:15] <hsivonen> I want to get code written today instead of spending the whole day ranting about canonicalization
# [10:15] <annevk> :)
# [10:15] <othermaciej> let's do something more productive, like rename URLs again
# [10:16] <othermaciej> I think it needs to be called a "URU" now
# [10:16] <annevk> Universal Resource Ugh
# [10:17] <annevk> URB Universal Resource Bikeshed
# [10:17] <othermaciej> URR Universal Resource Reference
# [10:18] <annevk> Obviously you are forgetting about the thousands of implementations that handle URBs.
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# [10:18] <annevk> Your browser is worthless compared to my CMS.
# [10:19] <othermaciej> well, URB and URR can be unified as Diversified Universal Resource Reference
# [10:19] <othermaciej> as soon as the DURR spec is ready, we can start on converting all software
# [10:20] <annevk> unified as diversified :)
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# [10:20] <othermaciej> so what ever happened to public-html-xml?
# [10:21] <othermaciej> did everyone suddenly lose interest?
# [10:21] <annevk> no, the next meeting is next week
# [10:21] <annevk> the idea is for Norm to write up a document
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# [10:22] <annevk> it seems he wrote down a summary of some sort: http://norman.walsh.name/2011/02/08/html-xml
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# [10:23] <annevk> quite a good read actually and more or less matches what I think
# [10:24] <annevk> not so much near the end though
# [10:24] <othermaciej> he does rant a little about 42--
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# [10:25] <annevk> I wonder when we stop comparing markup languages with programming languages
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# [10:25] <annevk> It obviously fails when it comes to error handling...
# [10:25] <othermaciej> who does that?
# [10:26] <annevk> at the end of that post he writes a bit about Perl
# [10:26] <annevk> and compares it with HTML
# [10:26] <annevk> roc once wrote a great email about programming languages and markup
# [10:27] <othermaciej> oh, right
# [10:27] <annevk> I actually have it stored in my inbox, yay!
# [10:27] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Dec/0132.html
# [10:27] <othermaciej> imagine if, to use a perl module, you had to bind its namespace URI to a prefix
# [10:28] <othermaciej> that's a good email
# [10:28] <othermaciej> I knew from the subject that it must be a reply to Larry
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# [10:40] <hsivonen> calling browser vendors "niche implementors" even as a rhetoric device is a pretty much in the center of how the divergence happened in the first place
# [10:41] <hsivonen> because it's effectively saying that the browsable Web is just a niche thing compared to everything else
# [10:41] <hsivonen> so it was OK for everything else to diverge from it
# [10:41] <workmad3> hsivonen: complaints about SOAP?
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# [10:42] <hsivonen> workmad3: I think "everything else" in this case includes not only SOAP but also serious technical writing publication workflows and Semantic Web stuff (to the extent RDF/XML is involved)
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# [10:50] <annevk> last night I had a thought of checking how much of the revised XML 1.0 (note that the version number stayed the same...) is actually implemented in browser and whether bug reports had been filed
# [10:50] <annevk> my hypothesis was that it was not and that no reports were filed because nobody cares about XML in browsers
# [10:51] <annevk> though I believe I did file a report for Opera which I believe has no duplicates (and no interest from anyone in fixing it)
# [10:51] <jgraham> The whole allowed character range thing is crazy anyway :| (that's what changed, right?)
# [10:51] <othermaciej> xml 1.0 version 5?
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# [10:52] <annevk> othermaciej, "fifth edition"
# [10:53] <othermaciej> wait, XML 1.0 5E uses the XML 1.1 character set?
# [10:53] <othermaciej> what the heck was the point of 1.1 then?
# [10:53] <annevk> it obsoleted XML 1.1 actually
# [10:53] <annevk> because it also removed the strict version checking
# [10:53] <annevk> but XML 1.1 is not rescinded still
# [10:53] <annevk> probably because IBM would go mental
# [10:54] <othermaciej> none of this makes any sense
# [10:54] <jgraham> othermaciej: bingo, we have a winner
# [10:54] <key> sup
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# [10:54] <annevk> and then XML people like Michael Kay complain on the WHATWG blog about how standards are a contract
# [10:55] <annevk> I do think this XML 1.0 change was for the better myself by the way
# [10:55] <annevk> it's a gentle first step towards XML5
# [10:55] <othermaciej> I love how they also made it an erratum to XML 1.0 4th edition
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# [10:55] <othermaciej> well, it's a better idea than XML 1.1 as a permanent incompatible fork
# [10:55] <othermaciej> would've made more sense to do it in the first place though
# [10:55] <key> what new could xml possibly need?
# [10:55] <key> isn't it bloated enough by now hehe?
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# [11:03] <hsivonen> I thought 5th ed. didn't have the IBM thing from 1.1
# [11:03] * hsivonen looks
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# [11:04] <annevk> hsivonen, oh, it is incompatible in that sense
# [11:04] <hsivonen> annevk: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#NT-S
# [11:04] <annevk> hsivonen, but when you see a 1.1 labeled document now you can process it per "fifth edition" rules
# [11:04] <hsivonen> 5th ed. still has a sane definition of whitespace
# [11:05] <hsivonen> no IBM mainframe gunk
# [11:05] <key> ibm mainframe gunk?
# [11:05] <hsivonen> key: for 1.1, they changed the definition of whitespace to include a character that allegedly was used in text on IBM mainframes
# [11:06] <hsivonen> oh. wait. I'm looking at the worng thing in the spec
# [11:06] <hsivonen> the magic happens in http://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#sec-line-ends
# [11:07] <annevk> hsivonen, the specific change I meant above with regards to replacing XML 1.1 is http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#NT-VersionNum
# [11:07] <annevk> contrast with http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#NT-VersionNum
# [11:07] <othermaciej> somehow, I feel like mainframes and XML are technologies meant for each other
# [11:07] <hsivonen> annevk: oh, but IBM was wentioned
# [11:08] <hsivonen> and http://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#sec-line-ends has IBM written all over it
# [11:08] <hsivonen> and that bit didn't make it to 5th ed. thank &Deity;!
# [11:08] <othermaciej> entity not found
# [11:09] <annevk> you are not well formed
# [11:09] <annevk> please leave
# [11:09] <hsivonen> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201007/msg00089.html
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# [11:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: The banks moving thier legacy systems sounds quite implausible.
# [11:15] <jgraham> Well maybe banks would. Airlines wouldn't. But then neither would they use newfangled XML
# [11:15] <annevk> always the pessimist
# [11:15] <annevk> :)
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# [11:22] <annevk> joy: http://www.ykombinator.com/
# [11:22] <annevk> oh, and a background: http://wlppr.com/2011/02/09/html-5
# [11:25] <key> haha
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# [11:37] <annevk> cannot believe Norm actually thinks we want to create some barrier to entry
# [11:38] <annevk> he wrote this on twitter: "I already suspect the established vendors are content to have the bar for new entrants set as high as possible."
# [11:39] <jgraham> The bar for new entrants to the browser market is high because browsers are really complicated
# [11:39] <annevk> it's like pretty much what we set out to fight against
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# [11:39] <jgraham> But we are bringing the bar down by documenting the right thing to do
# [11:39] <jgraham> But maybe this is the wrong sort of barrier?
# [11:39] <annevk> having to reverse engineer other browsers and that barrier being really high is why we do the things we do
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# [11:40] <jgraham> Possibly he doesn't mean browsers though
# [11:40] <annevk> yeah he does
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# [11:40] <annevk> this was in the context of HTML
# [11:40] <annevk> and the WHATWG in particular
# [11:41] <jgraham> If you believe in all the stuff about people embedding custom vocabularies in the markup, then he could be talking about barrier to entry of defining the language semantics
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# [11:42] <jgraham> And be working on the assumption that special-purpose vocabularies will be processed by special purpose tools
# [11:42] <jgraham> (of course it rather rests on the assumption that the additional data will be exposed via the DOM in just the same way as HTML
# [11:43] <jgraham> rather than via e.g. microdata
# [11:43] <hsivonen> Why is Kendall Clark using a photo of Noah Chomsky as his Twitter avatar?
# [11:43] <annevk> jgraham, not given the context actually
# [11:43] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, that tweet from Norm is sad
# [11:43] <jgraham> annevk: Pointer to context?
# [11:43] <annevk> I replied btw
# [11:44] <hsivonen> annevk: me, too
# [11:44] <hsivonen> twice only
# [11:44] <annevk> http://twitter.com/ndw/status/35097590135525376
# [11:44] <hsivonen> I saw you replied thrice
# [11:44] <annevk> I could have said more :)
# [11:45] <hsivonen> s/Noah/Noam/
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# [11:47] <jgraham> Well I guess "existing vendors want to lock others out" is a easy position to take in the absence of evidence
# [11:47] <roc> it's true that the barrier to new browsers is far too high
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# [11:48] <annevk> definitely
# [11:49] <annevk> and I suppose more could be done to make it lower, but saying we are content with it being high...
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# [11:50] <annevk> competition is what keeps this thing alive
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# [11:51] <annevk> otherwise you just get another IE6 disaster
# [11:51] <annevk> or NN4
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# [11:52] <roc> I can imagine alternative platforms to the Web that are simpler and therefore more amenable to new entrants
# [11:52] <roc> I just can't see how to get there from here
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# [12:58] <annevk> oh heh, the images are meant to load on http://www.fixtheweb.net/
# [13:07] <AryehGregor> What?
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# [13:08] <annevk> I clinked on that link and since images were taking over 10 seconds to load for me I wondered whether the site was making a point instead
# [13:09] <annevk> but apparently it was just a little slow
# [13:12] <annevk> seems mattur is doing some history project
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# [13:22] <matjas> TabAtkins: What’s up with your feed? Looks like it’s down, or is it just me?
# [13:24] <annevk> whoa
# [13:24] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Feb/0188.html is the like the weakest objection ever
# [13:24] <annevk> and also does not cite new arguments
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# [13:44] <annevk> can't believe mattur only has 100 followers
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# [13:45] <annevk> maybe the irony is hard to follow if you're not closely involved
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# [16:01] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/QA/2011/02/last_year_i_published_several.html look at that, HTML5 is generating money for the W3C!
# [16:02] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/w3c2011 -- W3C 2011: Select Priorities and Milestones
# [16:03] <annevk> "W3C expects to advance HTML5 to Last Call in May 2011, including accessibility support for important new features." I wonder whether they argued long over that line
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# [16:06] <annevk> "Community Groups" thing seems somewhat interesting
# [16:07] <annevk> though I guess another way of viewing that is postponing changing the W3C Process
# [16:07] <jgraham> I like the fact that HTML5 gets a LC date but CSS2.1 doesn't get a dtae for Rec.
# [16:08] <jgraham> Also, it says the testsuite is important but doesn't really say what they will do about making it good
# [16:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Date for REC depends upon a lot more, though
# [16:09] <gsnedders> For LC only the WG needs to have consensus, a lot more needed for REC
# [16:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: Given the makup of the two groups I would imagine it should be easier to get CSS2.1 to Rec. than HTML to agree on anything
# [16:12] <jgraham> More pointless too, obviously
# [16:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: Dunno how easy AC vote is going to be
# [16:12] <jgraham> (well having a testsuite is good)
# [16:13] <jgraham> (but it is good for its own sake not for having an implementation report)
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# [17:24] <TabAtkins> matjas: It works for me now. Try again?
# [17:25] <matjas> TabAtkins: yep, works now
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# [19:51] <karlcow> MikeSmith: http://kyoto-client.org/
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# [19:52] <MikeSmith> Kyoto Cabinet?
# [19:52] <MikeSmith> not Tokyo Cabinet
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# [19:55] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess it's the same developer and he end-of-lifed Tokyo a while back
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# [20:12] <AryehGregor> Okay, turns out WebKit's createContextualFragment() doesn't work too differently from Firefox, it was range.selectNode() that was buggy.
# [20:13] <hsivonen> sigh. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=264871
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# [20:36] <MikeSmith> [[
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> I now
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> frequently see ISO-8859-1 content mis-identified as cyrillic (windows-1251)
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> which didn't happen before
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> ]]
# [20:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
# [20:37] <MikeSmith> that don't sound so good
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# [20:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: context?
# [20:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: most recent comment posted to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=264871
# [20:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: well, that's a good reason not to turn it on for everyone!
# [20:40] <MikeSmith> I'd say
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# [20:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I got a short validator patch for review if you have a few minutes
# [20:42] <MikeSmith> https://gist.github.com/819101#file_check_meta_refresh.diff
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# [20:43] <MikeSmith> and/or I can send you be e-mail
# [20:43] <MikeSmith> this is for implementing a check for a change Hixie made recently
# [20:43] <MikeSmith> https://gist.github.com/819101#file_check_meta_refresh.diff
# [20:43] <MikeSmith> oops
# [20:43] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5839&to=5840
# [20:44] <MikeSmith> to disallow the URL part of meta refresh values from starting with an apostrophe or double-quote
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# [20:44] <MikeSmith> and to also to report an error for any leading/trailing whitespace in the URL part
# [20:45] <MikeSmith> because the IRI checker itself allows leading/trailing whitespace now
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# [20:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, createContextualFragment() tests: <http://aryeh.name/spec/dom-parsing-and-serialization/test/createContextualFragment.html> Any further ideas? (Current spec, for reference: <http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#dom-range-createcontextualfragment>)
# [20:51] <AryehGregor> The spec doesn't cover what happens if the Range's start isn't an Element.
# [20:51] * Hixie looks
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# [20:52] <AryehGregor> The spec is pretty short, so not much to test (given that I'm not testing the HTML parser proper beyond basic sanity checks).
# [20:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry, about to go to a telecon and not on a dev machine, so I eed to look at you patch later
# [20:52] <AryehGregor> (which Opera fails, but I've confirmed that's a legitimate createContextualFragment() failure, it's inserting <body>s and stuff)
# [20:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no problem
# [20:52] <Hixie> we'll have to test the fragment part of the parser at some point, but maybe not as part of this
# [20:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: will e-mail it to you
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# [20:53] <AryehGregor> (also not testing XML, since I was told we aren't sure what we want to happen for XML, although the spec does specify behavior)
# [20:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
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# [20:54] <Hixie> AryehGregor: test to make sure the end point of the range has no effect
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# [20:54] <AryehGregor> Oh, right.
# [20:54] <AryehGregor> I thought of that but forgot to test it.
# [20:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: other than that, looks pretty reasonable to me.
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> I mean, I remembered to test it but then later forgot again before I did it.
# [20:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i'm not familiar enough with that api to really know where the bugs are, so i don't know what else to test :-)
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# [21:03] <AryehGregor> Okay, now I'll go back to writing DOM Range tests.
# [21:04] <AryehGregor> That way I should get more familiar with browser bugs and not try to do silly things like use selectNode() anymore.
# [21:04] <Hixie> heh
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# [21:05] <AryehGregor> (all the WebKit tests for createContextualRange() were failing, turns out range.selectNode(document.documentElement) actually puts the start in the Document object instead of the root element . . .)
# [21:05] <AryehGregor> Actually, there's no spec for that method.
# [21:05] <AryehGregor> So I'll write that first.
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# [21:10] <Hixie> can anyone find any ARIA on http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/carousel/carousel-ariaplugin_source.html http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/tabview/tabview-ariaplugin_clean.html or http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/menu/menuwaiaria_source.html ?
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# [21:18] <Peter`> Hixie, carouselariaplugin.js seems to do that.
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# [21:37] <Hixie> Peter`: any idea how to turn it on?
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# [21:40] <Peter`> it's sniffing
# [21:40] <Peter`> for Gecko >= 1.9 or IE >= 8
# [21:42] <Peter`> seems to work in a firefox beta here
# [21:48] <Hixie> ah, it avoids chrome
# [21:48] <Hixie> man that's lame
# [21:51] <Hixie> anyone here know anything about STUN/ICE/SDP?
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# [21:55] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/#!/tmpvar/status/34356630250328064 "xml namespaces suck. In related news, only 1 test left in level2"
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# [21:55] <MikeSmith> from implementor of jsdom for Node
# [21:55] <key> if i have a main menu, structured with a UL, and wrapped with a semantic NAV, this makes sense to me. but then how should i handle the sub menu which shows for the main menu section selected? should my main menu include a nested UL for each section? or should server side scripting only nest a UL for the current section?
# [21:56] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua
# [21:56] <key> version 2
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# [21:59] <deane> Hi Mike
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# [22:01] <MikeSmith> hey deane
# [22:02] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua <-- this is my question, version 2 (include all submenus whether they're active or not) or version 3 (have server only include submenu that is active)?
# [22:02] <deane> sorry, haven't been online in ages
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# [22:06] <MikeSmith> deane: well, while you were away, somebody unfortunately summoned the Dark Lord Inglip and I reckon it's just a matter of time before he awakens to his full power and the world is destroyed
# [22:07] <MikeSmith> in the mean time, there's an SVG f2f in Auckland soon
# [22:07] <MikeSmith> Doug Schepers in attendance
# [22:07] <MikeSmith> among others
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# [22:08] <MikeSmith> so good chance to meet some people while they're there
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# [22:10] <deane> MikeSmith: oh no, doesn't sound good mate :)
# [22:11] <Philip`> http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/raw-file/tip/tests/submission/AryehGregor/base64.html
# [22:11] <key> is your name really mike smith? or a pseudonym
# [22:11] <Philip`> I guess it'd be nice if it made a mention that the apparent problem is in the HTTP header
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# [22:14] <AryehGregor> Philip`, on the test list?
# [22:16] <Philip`> ?
# [22:17] <Philip`> I just mean it'd be nice if the validator's error message said where the problem was
# [22:17] <AryehGregor> Oh.
# [22:17] <AryehGregor> "it", not "you".
# [22:17] <Philip`> Now that I think about it, I suppose it'd also be nice if the dvcs server didn't trigger that error
# [22:18] <AryehGregor> I'm not even sure what the error means.
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# [22:19] <Philip`> It means it saw Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
# [22:20] <AryehGregor> And what did it want?
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# [22:23] <Philip`> charset=UTF-8
# [22:23] <Philip`> (I assume)
# [22:24] <AryehGregor> So no quotes?
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# [22:24] <key> i'd use quotes
# [22:24] <key> i always do
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# [22:25] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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# [22:31] <key> what's with people not using 6 characters for hex colors? like the #444 ?
# [22:32] <AryehGregor> It's shorter.
# [22:32] <AryehGregor> Equivalent to #444444. So why not use it, if you don't care much for precision?
# [22:33] <key> who said i don't care much for precision? i just said i always use quotes. <shrug>
# [22:33] <AryehGregor> That part was in reply to "what's with people not using 6 characters for hex colors? like the #444 ?"
# [22:33] <key> oh
# [22:33] <key> so why not just #4 ?
# [22:33] <AryehGregor> With three characters you have less precision, but often it doesn't matter.
# [22:33] <AryehGregor> That's not legal.
# [22:33] <AryehGregor> It has to be three or six.
# [22:33] <key> when did this happen? 3 being valid
# [22:34] <AryehGregor> It was always true, as far as I know.
# [22:34] <key> interesting
# [22:34] <hsivonen> can someone explain to me how the failure mode seen in https://bug631751.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=509978 in Chrome arises?
# [22:34] <AryehGregor> Back to the early days of CSS.
# [22:34] <key> i was in web dev a lot back in the 90s, never saw it that way
# [22:34] <hsivonen> (the page is BOMless unlabeled UTF-16)
# [22:34] <TabAtkins> Yes, CSS has had both 3 and 6 hexit colors since the beginning. Most applicatinos that accept hex colors understand the 3-hexit version, too.
# [22:35] <key> what's hexit mean?
# [22:35] <hsivonen> the failure mode in Firefox 4 and Safari 5 at least makes sense to me
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# [22:36] <hsivonen> is a heuristic encoding detector in Opera always enabled and not user-togglable?
# [22:36] <TabAtkins> A hexit is a hexadecimal digit.
# [22:36] <TabAtkins> Similar to how "bit" is a binary digit.
# [22:37] <hsivonen> can someone with IE tell me how https://bug631751.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=509978 works in IE? does IE detect UTF-16 or does it discard U+0000 ahead of tokenization?
# [22:37] <TabAtkins> And "trit" for trinary digit. Not sure if there are any more common words for digits in particular bases.
# [22:37] * hsivonen is without IE at this time of day
# [22:38] <hsivonen> unlabeled BOMless UTF-16 is evil and makes me sad
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# [22:39] <TabAtkins> s/unlabeled BOMless //
# [22:39] <TabAtkins> s/sad/HULK ANGRY/
# [22:40] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I was trying to be polite
# [22:40] <key> whoa, i never knew bit was short for binary digit!
# [22:40] <key> in all this time, damn
# [22:40] <key> thanks TabAtkins!
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# [22:41] <key> i wonder why 7 bit bytes never took off
# [22:42] <key> what was it about 8 that made it the clear winner?
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# [22:43] <hsivonen> key: smallest power of 2 that's enough for characters in American text
# [22:44] <webr3> "power of 2" might be the overriding factor
# [22:44] <key> interesting to think how the origin of 8 bit byte is so arbitrary, then
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# [22:45] <key> why would you need to have a byte based on power of 2? eg, why not a 7 bit byte, 9, etc
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# [22:48] <webr3> because computer memory is built on binary logic, so requires powers of 2?
# [22:49] * webr3 apologies, was watching issue-129 cp1 get sent in to a black hole
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# [22:59] <AryehGregor> Why does Opera always fail so many tests compared to Gecko and WebKit? http://aryeh.name/spec/dom-range/test/Range-selectNode.html
# [22:59] <AryehGregor> This time it passes more tests than IE9 . . . one more test.
# [23:01] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Because you are testing something we aren't very good at, possibly
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# [23:01] <jgraham> Or maybe we tried to copy IE rather than conform to any spec
# [23:01] <AryehGregor> This is Ranges, IE didn't have them before IE9 AFAIK.
# [23:02] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/1998OctDec/0014.html is that a different David Singer from Apple's?
# [23:02] <jgraham> Oh, well presumably we just didn't have good QA of this feature then
# [23:02] <AryehGregor> Maybe you just have fewer compatibility reports than WebKit when copying Gecko stuff, so you wind up with a less correct implementation?
# [23:02] <jgraham> and it hasn't caused many site-compat issues
# [23:02] <AryehGregor> This is what specs and tests are for. :)
# [23:03] <AryehGregor> WebKit and Gecko presumably get compat reports faster than Opera does.
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# [23:04] <jgraham> afiak all the DOMRange stuff predates me woking at Opera, so I'm not in the best position to comment on it
# [23:05] <hsivonen> it's a shame that http://www.w3.org/Member/Meeting/98JanAC/xml-req.html is confidential
# [23:05] * AryehGregor can now read it since he's a member via Google and not just a fake Invited Expert, yay
# [23:06] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, can it be declassified somehow?
# [23:06] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I don't know
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# [23:06] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: maybe there's a Process for that. maybe not
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# [23:10] <MikeSmith> there is not process for that, unfortunately
# [23:10] <MikeSmith> no afaik at least
# [23:10] <MikeSmith> that's the general downside of making anything Secret to begin with
# [23:10] <MikeSmith> as with governments or whatever else
# [23:12] <jgraham> Governments are actually often quite reasonable at declassifying stuff after a while
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# [23:12] <Philip`> webr3: Power-of-two isn't a requirement - there were early computers that had e.g. 36-bit words, which could be split into e.g. 6-bit or 9-bit bytes
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# [23:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: It does seem to be a different David Singer, in case you didn't already find that out
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# [23:15] * jgraham can't even find where you asked to see if someone answered
# [23:15] <jgraham> Philip`: Power-of-two not being a requirement doesn't mean its not an advantage
# [23:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I wouldn't say that the US government at least is quite reasonable about it
# [23:18] <annevk> hsivonen, if you remind me tomorrow I will finally email what I found out about our heuristics
# [23:18] <annevk> hsivonen, it's all in my inbox I just never went through it and posted a reply to your question
# [23:18] <annevk> (though it's not a complete answer I'm afraid)
# [23:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok. thanks
# [23:20] <hsivonen> annevk: ok, I'll ping you tomorrow
# [23:21] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System/360 claims that the IBM 7030 had variable sized bytes
# [23:22] <annevk> Hixie, btw, did I read correctly you want to give up on <device>?
# [23:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: With the Freedom of Information act and declassification of old documents it may be easier to get interesting historical information out of the UK government than W3C (as a non-Member). But I could be quite wrong
# [23:22] <annevk> Hixie, sounds reasonable to me; wondering if you will make the change shortly?
# [23:25] <jgraham> annevk: Where?
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# [23:26] <annevk> jgraham, IRC logs I guess
# [23:28] <Hixie> annevk: i'm waiting to find someone who can write a spec for the STUN/ICE/SDP glue before working on that spec
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# [23:35] <karlcow> jgraham: how old must be the documents?
# [23:36] <karlcow> (before being declassified)
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# [23:37] <jgraham> karlcow: No idea. Maybe rather old
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# [23:38] <Philip`> jgraham: It appears to be similar to how modern architectures let you read a variable number of units from the address of the highest unit, which in this case is 1/2/4/8 bytes but in the 7080 is 1-8 bits
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# [23:39] <karlcow> in France it seems in between 50 years and 100 years but also with a right to destroy the document before that (if we can trust wikipedia)
# [23:41] <Philip`> (Addresses nowadays are 32/64 bits pointing at bytes; on the 7080 it seems to be 18-bit addresses pointing at 64-bit words, plus an extra 6 address bits to point to individual bits)
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# [23:46] <karlcow> http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2011/02/optimizing-your-site-for-tv-is-now.html
# [23:46] <Philip`> s/7080/7030/g
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# [23:47] <jgraham> karlcow: 30 years seems to be somewhat normal though it has gine down to 20
# [23:47] <jgraham> And of course you can opt to keep things secret
# [23:48] <karlcow> yes
# [23:48] <karlcow> one I would love to see public is the minutes of the 1998 workshop
# [23:48] <AryehGregor> karlcow, I think in the US, you're allowed to request any information that doesn't fall under the exemptions, no matter how new.
# [23:48] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/htmlcall.html
# [23:48] <AryehGregor> Of course, lots of stuff falls under the exemptions.
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# [23:50] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/
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# [23:57] <karlcow> hsivonen: david singer is a different one from IBM
# [23:57] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/papers/singer/im-164149.htm
# [23:58] <karlcow> # Some Requirements on the future of HTML
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# Session Close: Thu Feb 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)