/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-16 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 16 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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14. # [00:14] <jwalden> idle question for the masses, what should |var pm = otherWindow.postMessage; setTimeout(pm, 0, ...);| do? send a message? with what source?
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16. # [00:17] <Dashiva> The script triggering the setTimeout is the same script that would have called it directly, so I don't see that source would change
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18. # [00:19] <jwalden> postMessage would be called without any actual calling script, tho
19. # [00:19] <bga_> jwalden this is eq pm.call(window, undefined, undefined)
20. # [00:19] <jwalden> bga_: not quite; there you have a calling script, the other case it's called from nothingness
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23. # [00:20] <bga_> i mean input arguments
24. # [00:21] <bga_> and `this`
25. # [00:22] <bga_> ah `setTimeout(pm, 0, ...)`;
26. # [00:22] <Ms2ger> jwalden, it would be called with window as its this object, not otherWindow, AIUI
27. # [00:22] <bga_> but `this` will be `window` or `null` anyway
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29. # [00:24] <jwalden> Ms2ger: the concern is not |this|. it's that, supposing there's an event handler in otherWindow to receive the message, what should |e.source| be?
30. # [00:24] <jwalden> and how would that value be computable when postMessage is actually called?
31. # [00:24] <Ms2ger> I assume window, without seeing the spec
32. # [00:24] <jwalden> this is fundamentally a form of dynamic scoping
33. # [00:25] <jwalden> but if there's no dynamic scope to look at, because it's via setTimeout...
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35. # [00:28] <bga_> hm
36. # [00:28] <bga_> "setTimeout(function, milliseconds)
37. # [00:28] <bga_> This method calls the function once after a specified number of milliseconds elapses, until canceled by a call to clearTimeout. The methods returns a timerID which may be used in a subsequent call to clearTimeout to cancel the interval."
38. # [00:29] <bga_> setTimeout with extra arguments is not standard
39. # [00:29] <Ms2ger> It isn't? Please file a bug :)
40. # [00:31] <bga_> no. :) extra arguments is bad. this task for closure
41. # [00:31] <bga_> or .bind
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44. # [00:37] <hober> Right, so I'm at Apple now. whoo!
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46. # [00:38] <othermaciej> hober: congratulations on being acquired
47. # [00:38] <hober> heh
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53. # [00:40] <Hixie> rgervais: going back to the earlier conversation, we're not going to change the spec willy nilly -- if something is valid, it's going to stay valid
54. # [00:40] <Hixie> rgervais: at least as much as if the spec was "final" like HTML4
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58. # [00:58] <karlcow> "Ugh. HTTP and HTTPS are same origin to MSIE for localStorage and sessionStorage checks. In Firefox, only sessionStorage is borked." – http://twitter.com/lcamtuf/status/37626661981650944
59. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Um, what? setTimeout with extra arguments is defined in HTML.
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61. # [01:02] <Hixie> hm?
62. # [01:02] <gsnedders> setTimeout with any arguments is defined in HTML.
63. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> to bga
64. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I meant extra as in "in addition to the normal two".
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69. # [01:13] <uf0> ok so.. i'm going to give an example:
70. # [01:13] <uf0> say I'm creating a header in HTML5
71. # [01:13] <uf0> I would obviously put anything relating to that in <header>
72. # [01:13] <uf0> my question does <nav> go in <header>
73. # [01:13] <uf0> or outside seperately
74. # [01:14] <uf0> now usually in my days now
75. # [01:14] <uf0> i would put a <ul class="nav"> inside the <div id="header">
76. # [01:14] <uf0> thoughts?
77. # [01:14] <hober> either way dude
78. # [01:14] <Hixie> putting <nav> in <header> is fine, yeah
79. # [01:15] <uf0> cool
80. # [01:15] <uf0> another question, in my olden days i would have a <div id="wrap"> to hold the header, footer and content
81. # [01:15] <uf0> is that now a <section id="wrap">
82. # [01:15] <uf0> or still a div
83. # [01:15] <hober> that's what <body>'s for
84. # [01:16] <uf0> no hober
85. # [01:16] <hober> but, if you need an extraneous element for whatever reason, keep on trucking with <div> there.
86. # [01:16] <uf0> to wrap and do a margin auto with a width, I don't do that in body
87. # [01:16] <uf0> or <body>
88. # [01:16] <uf0> i always have a container for that
89. # [01:16] <hober> body { width:30em; margin: 0 auto; } works fine
90. # [01:16] <uf0> so I'm wondering if <section> is the right tag
91. # [01:16] <hober> I do that all the time
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93. # [01:17] <uf0> I disagree with that, though it technically works
94. # [01:17] <hober> well, anyway, if you must have a single child of body, <div> is the correct element
95. # [01:17] <hober> <section> implies you're trying to impact the outline algorithm, which is weird in this case
96. # [01:17] <uf0> alright
97. # [01:19] <uf0> thx Hixie/hober
98. # [01:19] <hober> np
99. # [01:19] <Hixie> np
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101. # [01:19] <Hixie> hober's right on the <div> thing
102. # [01:19] <Hixie> don't forget you can style <html> and <body> separately, though
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104. # [01:20] <Hixie> so you often don't need a <div> as well
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116. # [01:50] <uf0> this is probably a dumb question, but what's the difference between W3C and WHATWG?
117. # [01:50] <uf0> do you guys work seperately or together
118. # [01:51] <uf0> i don't get it
119. # [01:51] <Hixie> together
120. # [01:51] <Hixie> whatwg started working on html back in 2003/4 when the w3c didn't want to work on html any more, and when they changed their mind we started working together
121. # [01:51] <uf0> who decides what's approved?
122. # [01:51] <uf0> you guys or them
123. # [01:52] <zewt> W:DWG
124. # [01:53] <Hixie> uf0: neither
125. # [01:53] <uf0> oh
126. # [01:53] <Hixie> uf0: the browser vendors decide
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128. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> uf0, the WHATWG and W3C have different specs. The WHATWG decides what goes into its spec, the W3C decides what goes into its spec.
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131. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> Hixie, not for authoring conformance and non-normative material!
132. # [01:53] <uf0> scratches head***
133. # [01:54] <uf0> so what spec do I use w3c or whatwg
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135. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> They're almost the same, except the W3C one leaves out some stuff and is split up more.
136. # [01:54] <Hixie> yeah, for authoring conformance criteria the issue is a bit more murky -- in practice it seems the w3c decides those, we've just made the whatwg spec match whatever they do
137. # [01:54] <jamesr_> if you are a web author i'd recommend using the WHATWG spec
138. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> Clearly, the people here are mostly going to recommend the WHATWG spec.
139. # [01:54] <Hixie> for non-normative material they tend to differ a little more
140. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> Since this is #whatwg. :)
141. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> It has useful stuff like implementation status annotations.
142. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> And a comment box everywhere instead of just the front.
143. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> (although that gets in the way when using Ctrl-F on Firefox)
144. # [01:56] <Hixie> you can close the comment box
145. # [01:56] <uf0> hmm ok
146. # [01:56] <Hixie> click the arrow :-)
147. # [01:56] <zewt> pages that eat ^F make me want to punch the html :P
148. # [01:56] <AryehGregor> But then I have to click again later to open it. :(
149. # [01:56] <Hixie> uf0: the whatwg spec has some text at the top that discusses this btw
150. # [01:56] <Hixie> uf0: http://whatwg.org/html in the intro sectiuon
151. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> I have noticed that Firefox's behavior is nicer than Chrome's in that if you hit the end and wrap around, it's instantly noticeable because the search term is now at the top of the page instead of the bottom.
152. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> Whereas with Chrome I often find myself cycling through all the possibilities repeatedly and not noticing.
153. # [01:57] <Hixie> the main problem with chrome's find in page is that every few searches it decides to go out to lunch
154. # [01:58] <webr3> uf0, lol - I'm currently arguing on the mailing lists that both the w3c and the what wg don't actually provide a spec for the likes of you and me - so quiet funny timing - the closest you've got is http://caniuse.com/
155. # [01:59] <webr3> s/quiet/quite
156. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> Yeah, the official spec is realistically not ever going to be the best thing for typical authors.
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158. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> They're way too precise, i.e., long-winded and incomprehensible.
159. # [01:59] <Hixie> ben is working on developers.whatwg.org which may be helpful
160. # [02:00] <Hixie> lachlan used to work on a tutorial spec, but dunno what's happened with that
161. # [02:00] <Hixie> haven't seen lachy in a while, in fact. anyone know if he's still around?
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165. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> Hmm, dunno.
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170. # [02:15] <hober> he's still at opera afaicr
171. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> jgraham, you need better stringification for expected/actual reporting. If the expected value is, e.g., the empty string, it's kind of hard to read. And you can't tell null from "null" and so on. May I recommend: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/tip/tests/submission/AryehGregor/reflection/original-harness.js#l16
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173. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> Actually, line number or filename may change, so a specific revision is better: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f86e2b4137f7/tests/submission/AryehGregor/reflection/original-harness.js#l16
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176. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> Okay, IE9 RC fails every single test, totally legitimately.
177. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> Opera fails almost all.
178. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> Mostly because of not handling nulls correctly.
179. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> WebKit and Gecko pass some.
180. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> They seem to have no bugs in their string reflection that I've found, sadly.
181. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> If I do find, I'll make sure to make them fail too. :)
182. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> But first I'll make Opera fail the remaining few tests by making sure to add strings with binary for everything.
183. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> But that's for tomorrow.
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187. # [02:35] <AryehGregor> HTML test mail sent. Yay.
188. # [02:35] * AryehGregor is off for the night
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340. # [09:36] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yes, better stringification seems like a good idea.
341. # [09:37] <jgraham> Also, there is no need to make Opera fail all your tests just because :)
342. # [09:38] <jgraham> Well specifically it's not clear that setting things up so that one bug causes everything to fail is that useful, since it will have the effect of hiding more significant bugs
343. # [09:38] <jgraham> Although I do of course agree that we should fix the null-handling issues
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346. # [09:48] <annevk> Hixie, regarding the stability of DOM Core; I would say it is pretty stable but we are planning a number of experiments that make a few specific parts "less stable"
347. # [09:48] <annevk> Hixie, i.e. killing the concept of Attr being a node
348. # [09:48] <Hixie> it's not really stableness i'm worried about so much as completeness
349. # [09:49] <Hixie> last i saw it, it was extremely incomplete
350. # [09:49] <annevk> really?
351. # [09:49] <Hixie> well last i saw it was months ago :-)
352. # [09:49] <annevk> the Nodes part has not changed much since publication
353. # [09:49] <Hixie> what's the url these days?
354. # [09:50] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
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356. # [09:51] <jgraham> annevk: I am like 90% sure that Closure relies on the nodeness of Attr
357. # [09:51] <jgraham> If it doesn't, it does a very good job of faking it
358. # [09:51] <Hixie> ok well step one will have to be me going very carefully through the definitions to make sure i didn't change any since the text was copied
359. # [09:51] <jgraham> So I think we already lost there
360. # [09:52] * jgraham would be happy to be proven wrong
361. # [09:52] <annevk> jgraham, I'm sure some stuff will break, we'll have to figure out how much we can battle it with alpha builds
362. # [09:52] <jgraham> If some stuff === most Google properties, we have a problem
363. # [09:52] <Hixie> oh wow, this definition of Event is so much better than I'm used to.
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365. # [09:54] <jgraham> http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=getAttributeNode+package%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fclosure-library\.googlecode\.com&origq=getAttributeNode&btnG=Search+Trunk
366. # [09:54] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, wow, this is way more complete than the last time i saw it
367. # [09:54] <Hixie> annevk: this is awesometastic
368. # [09:55] <Hixie> annevk++ Ms2ger++
369. # [09:55] <annevk> :)
370. # [09:55] <Hixie> k well i guess it's time to start moving to that draft
371. # [09:56] <Hixie> this is so much more readable than dom3 core
372. # [10:02] <Hixie> annevk: filed bug 12094 on switching to web dom core
373. # [10:03] <Hixie> annevk: when i do it i'll go through the definitions carefully and any that are identical and make more sense in dom core i'll just reference dom core -- please let me know if you ever change those definitions since they can have really drastic ramifications
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375. # [10:04] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, pretty sure Ms2ger and I can keep on top of that
376. # [10:04] <annevk> Hixie, we have for exceptions at least :)
377. # [10:04] <Hixie> cool :-)
378. # [10:05] <Hixie> seeing how web dome core has matured really made my day :-)
379. # [10:05] <Hixie> web dom core, even
380. # [10:07] <zcorpan> annevk: time for a publication heartbeat for web dom core?
381. # [10:09] <annevk> zcorpan, that is the plan yes, before I leave :)
382. # [10:10] <annevk> I want to fix the issues with events smaug pointed out I think
383. # [10:10] <zcorpan> cool
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385. # [10:11] <annevk> http://irinawerning.com/back-to-the-fut/back-to-the-future/ is pretty amazing
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389. # [10:23] <annevk> Hixie, I thought readonly meant something like is disabled but is submitted
390. # [10:23] <Hixie> readonly means "interactive but not mutable"
391. # [10:23] <Hixie> it also as a side-effect is submitted when disabled is not
392. # [10:23] <Hixie> but that's more of a historical artefact
393. # [10:24] <Hixie> readonly just comes from the fact that UI toolkits for text fields have this "readonly" state separate from the disabled state
394. # [10:24] <annevk> mkay
395. # [10:24] <Hixie> so when browsers first did this, it made sense to add readonly for text fields
396. # [10:26] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11483#c1 <-- damnit. :-P
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398. # [10:35] <Hixie> annevk: re http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11452, it would be helpful if you could make a list of all the ways that rfc2388 is problematic -- that would give me cover to just go and respec it from scratch
399. # [10:35] <Hixie> annevk: if i just do it people will go ballistic as usual about how we're ignoring standards, and it would be good to have an explanation of the problems
400. # [10:35] <Hixie> annevk: (it would also allow me to approach larry and ask him if he's willing to fix the spec first)
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402. # [10:39] <annevk> be great if he could do that; I'll give it a shot
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406. # [10:43] <phrearch> hello
407. # [10:43] <phrearch> do websockets keep track of message ids themselves?
408. # [10:43] <phrearch> i got some sync problems
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411. # [10:47] <jgraham> phrearch: message ids?
412. # [10:49] <phrearch> well, i got two messages firing now at the moment: one to get online users, and one to sync a canvas painting app. Both arrive in this jquery websocket router: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/339478/
413. # [10:50] <phrearch> the callback is fired twice somehow, so i thought i maybe have to queue the messages and match them on origin
414. # [10:50] <phrearch> if a message comes in, i would like to be able which event fired it
415. # [10:51] <phrearch> i started with jsonrpc which had a message id in it, but removed that(it had a function i guess :) )
416. # [10:51] <hsivonen> someone should make "Wikipedia > IANA" t-shirts
417. # [10:52] <phrearch> so, i was wondering if the websocket api has a way to find out which message belongs to which call
418. # [10:52] <phrearch> or do i have to add the message id manually again
419. # [10:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: and you say _I'm_ unnecessarily antagonistic. :-P
420. # [10:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: :-)
421. # [10:53] <phrearch> having a 36 char uuid in there seems not to be good for small message parsing
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425. # [10:55] <zcorpan> what happened to https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/ ?
426. # [10:58] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
427. # [11:01] <jgraham> phrearch: I'm not quite sure I follow. In general if you have a DOM event you can work out what type of event it is. But if you have two message events, the API doesn't provide any unique identifier for each; you hvae to do that at the application ("subprotocol") level
428. # [11:01] <annevk> zcorpan, bitbucket does not redirect :/ https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/
429. # [11:01] <phrearch> jgraham: i was already affraid for that :)
430. # [11:02] <jgraham> phrearch: Well it's not clear to me what it would provide
431. # [11:03] <phrearch> hm, i hoped for some id in the send message thats linked to the message event
432. # [11:03] <jgraham> s/would/could/
433. # [11:03] <phrearch> but it can be done in the application indeed
434. # [11:04] <jgraham> What do you mean "linked to the message event"?
435. # [11:04] <jgraham> You mean the DOM event object?
436. # [11:04] <jgraham> or something different?
437. # [11:04] <phrearch> yea, i dont know if thats even possible but
438. # [11:04] <zcorpan> annevk: ah
439. # [11:05] <annevk> zcorpan, also it did not advertise that changing the name changes the URL
440. # [11:05] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
441. # [11:05] <annevk> should I change it back?
442. # [11:06] <zcorpan> naw it's ok
443. # [11:06] <jgraham> phrearch: Well as long as you are entirely on the client, the message is already bound to the event object
444. # [11:06] <jgraham> Since it is e.data that contains the message
445. # [11:06] <jgraham> But I guess you don't mean that
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447. # [11:07] <phrearch> yea, thats what i meant
448. # [11:07] <phrearch> i think i got it. in the message object, i can see the original calling function in .target.origin
449. # [11:08] <phrearch> or not...hm, ill see if i can fix it like this first
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453. # [11:16] <phrearch> hm, any idea why origin sometimes is overwritten with two subsequent ws messages? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/339489/
454. # [11:16] <phrearch> two origins should be different, but most of the times they are the same
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456. # [11:19] <annevk> whoa
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458. # [11:19] <annevk> constructive feedback from Jukka Korpela on the WHATWG list
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460. # [11:21] <Hixie> ok bed time
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477. # [12:09] <jgraham> So I started an infrastructure requirements page for the HTML test task force: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Infrastructure/Requirements/
478. # [12:09] <jgraham> Comments before I send it to the list?
479. # [12:10] * jgraham realises most relevant people are asleep
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484. # [12:12] * jgraham wonders if there is a good code review tool for hg
485. # [12:25] <phrearch> ok problem solved :)
486. # [12:26] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
487. # [12:31] <Philip`> "Most test review is currently done informally via the mailing list. This doesn't work so well, especially for for large testsuites. Maybe there is an existing tool that can help us here."
488. # [12:31] <Philip`> Is the problem the lack of tools, or is it primarily the lack of people?
489. # [12:32] <jgraham> Pass
490. # [12:32] <jgraham> But I don't really fancy reviewing, say, AryehGregor's tests without some way to write inline comments
491. # [12:32] <jgraham> And we don't really have a good way of knowing what has/hasn't been reviewed
492. # [12:33] <jgraham> So the tools might not save us, but they could help us
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494. # [12:42] <matjas> Warning: imap_open() [function.imap-open]: Couldn't open stream {imap.gmail.com:993/imap/ssl}INBOX in /f2/xanthir/public/feed/public-css-commits/index.php on line 22
495. # [12:42] <matjas> can't connect: TLS/SSL failure for imap.gmail.com: SSL negotiation failed
496. # [12:42] <matjas> TabAtkins: ^
497. # [12:44] <matjas> TabAtkins: Been getting a lot of errors (timeouts/PHP errors) on your CSS feed lately.
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500. # [12:47] <karlcow> thanks annevk for the link http://irinawerning.com/back-to-the-fut/back-to-the-future/ Wonderful. Shadows of time, ambiguity of self.
501. # [12:49] <jgraham> Yeah, I rather enjoyed those
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508. # [13:10] <karlcow> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64TcBiqmVko
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511. # [13:10] <karlcow> WegGL aquarium using a few computers
512. # [13:11] <karlcow> (and cheesy music)
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524. # [13:54] <annevk> for anyone who is slightly bored, check archives of w3c-css-wg ;)
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528. # [14:11] <annevk> bah
529. # [14:11] <annevk> per Wikipedia objects in a tree structure are called nodes
530. # [14:11] <annevk> nice conflict there with the DOM!
531. # [14:11] <hsivonen> what's the conflict?
532. # [14:12] <zcorpan> IndexedDB doesn't have DOM nodes, but has a tree structure (at least i think it does?)
533. # [14:12] <annevk> apparently DOM Events is used in Indexed DB on a non-DOM tree structure
534. # [14:13] <annevk> so I need to define the concept of "tree structure" and then map the Nodes Model to it
535. # [14:13] <annevk> and indexed DB will need to map its own model to it
536. # [14:13] <annevk> well, that's my vague plan and I'm not getting very far
537. # [14:13] <annevk> like, can I just say "tree structure" and expect it to be clear?
538. # [14:16] <jgraham> annevk: Well yes, they're called Nodes in DOM because DOM is a tree and trees have nodes
539. # [14:16] <annevk> anyone an idea how to include a subtle reference to /r/trees ?
540. # [14:17] <jgraham> I think you just blew subtle
541. # [14:17] <annevk> jgraham, thank you captain obvious :p
542. # [14:18] <jgraham> annevk: Anyway the event nodes thing shouldn't be too hard. You just need to define that they operate on an abstract tree and that they move between nodes in that tree in the required way
543. # [14:19] <jgraham> And explicitly say that node !== DOM Node
544. # [14:19] <jgraham> But that DOM Nodes do map onto the abstract nodes
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546. # [14:19] <annevk> yeah, something like that
547. # [14:20] <annevk> I guess I should just take a stab at it
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549. # [14:21] <jgraham> (the only other thing I can think to do is to use the word "vertex" which is more general but probably more confusing)
550. # [14:24] <karlcow> Spring rain
551. # [14:24] <karlcow> conveyed under the trees
552. # [14:24] <karlcow> in drops.
553. # [14:24] <karlcow> — Basho
554. # [14:24] <karlcow> hmm maybe not helpful for annevk
555. # [14:25] * karlcow had to search for r-tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-tree
556. # [14:28] * Philip` can't remember ever hearing people use "vertex" in the context of trees
557. # [14:29] <Philip`> (Only in unconstrainted graphs)
558. # [14:29] <Philip`> s/ted/ed/
559. # [14:29] <karlcow> Philip`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_(graph_theory)
560. # [14:30] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure is the more useful one
561. # [14:30] <karlcow> it seems to be mentioned here
562. # [14:31] * Philip` can't remember often hearing people use "tree" in the context of undirected graphs
563. # [14:31] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertex_(graph_theory)
564. # [14:31] <Philip`> (probably because I'm in more contact with computer scientists than graph theorists)
565. # [14:32] <karlcow> and my own understanding of vertex is more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertex_(physics)
566. # [14:33] <karlcow> as well as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertex_model
567. # [14:34] <zcorpan> annevk: window is part of the event tree but isn't a DOM node
568. # [14:34] <zcorpan> annevk: so it's not a new problem with indexeddb
569. # [14:35] <annevk> zcorpan, the way Hixie defined Window it's still not really part of the event tree
570. # [14:35] <annevk> it just participates in event dispatching
571. # [14:36] <zcorpan> i thought all bubbling events bubbled up to window
572. # [14:36] <zcorpan> no?
573. # [14:37] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/webappapis.html#events-and-the-window-object
574. # [14:38] <zcorpan> what's the difference between that and being part of the tree?
575. # [14:38] <annevk> it's conceptually different
576. # [14:39] <annevk> anyway, I'm working on an abstract definition of "Trees"
577. # [14:39] <zcorpan> why is 'load' excluded btw? when is a load event fired on document?
578. # [14:40] <zcorpan> or, oh
579. # [14:40] <zcorpan> hmm
580. # [14:43] <zcorpan> is it just to prevent capturing 'load' listeners on window to run for <img> loads? or why?
581. # [14:50] <annevk> legacy
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584. # [15:06] <annevk> made modest progress
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591. # [15:30] <annevk> I think I fixed it
592. # [15:31] <annevk> though "Common infrastructure" is still somewhat messy imo
593. # [15:31] <annevk> it has copy and paste all over it
594. # [15:33] <karlcow> do Firefox, Chrome, IE and Safari send a different HTTP Code depending on the payload size of an HTTP POST
595. # [15:33] <karlcow> Expect: 100-continue for bigger payloads?
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598. # [15:45] <annevk> I guess Hixie's "Common infrastructure" is also somewhat organized adhoc
599. # [15:45] <annevk> I've no idea why Conformance would be in there for instance
600. # [15:45] <karlcow> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.feedback.firefox/browse_thread/thread/8918bae4308e476d?tvc=2
601. # [15:45] * annevk hopes more people care about this and can give some insight
602. # [15:46] <annevk> oh great, in XHR Terminology is a subsection of Conformance!
603. # [15:46] <karlcow> annevk: what do you refer to? link?
604. # [15:46] <annevk> and nobody complaints
605. # [15:46] <annevk> bah, no rules
606. # [15:47] <annevk> karlcow, load e.g. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html and http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/ and maybe the HTML spec and compare how they organize the initial sections
607. # [15:47] <annevk> CORS follows XHR http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/
608. # [15:47] <karlcow> checking
609. # [15:48] <annevk> I'm leaning towards grouping conformance/extensibility/dependency under "Conformance" and the rest under "Terminology" both separate top-level sections
610. # [15:48] <annevk> for all specs I edit
611. # [15:48] <annevk> "Conformance" first
612. # [15:48] <karlcow> indeed terminology under conformance seems strange
613. # [15:49] <karlcow> fixable
614. # [15:50] <annevk> oh sure, I just never quite know how and what patterns to follow
615. # [15:50] <annevk> but there's hardly any spec writing pattern I guess when you think most specs out there are crappy :p
616. # [15:51] <karlcow> Common infrastructure is a strange name in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ but I guess I didn't really pay attention to it
617. # [15:52] <karlcow> annevk: from experience, each time we tried to create editing patterns, a NIH syndrome arised. Each editor being a geek came up with his own software/technique/tool to do things :)
618. # [15:52] <annevk> that's exactly what's happening here
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622. # [15:53] <annevk> but I mean, putting Terminology under Introduction like in XML?
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624. # [15:54] <annevk> terminology is overall a pretty crappy section; ideally it's not there
625. # [15:55] <annevk> you want to introduce terms as the reader reads through the spec
626. # [15:55] <annevk> not upfront somewhere, that never really works well
627. # [15:55] <hsivonen> terminology up front is so ISO
628. # [15:55] <karlcow> what we did in QA framework spec http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/ is that. We introduced terms and made a glossary at the end
629. # [15:56] <annevk> oh, glossary is a nice touch
630. # [15:56] <annevk> maybe we should add that to Anolis
631. # [15:56] * annevk summons Ms2ger
632. # [15:56] <annevk> I mostly use "Terminology" now for terms defined by other specs
633. # [15:56] <annevk> but ideally we get workable cross-spec cross-references for that
634. # [15:57] <annevk> XSXR, sounds like some kind of vulnerability
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638. # [15:58] <karlcow> I remember this effort for a while http://www.w3.org/2003/glossary/ but has not been updated. People using too many ways of describing the vocab
639. # [16:00] <annevk> maybe after a couple more rewrites of all core specs we'll have an idea of what we are doing and can write down a nice simple glossary :)
640. # [16:00] <karlcow> heh
641. # [16:00] <karlcow> living hope
642. # [16:00] <karlcow> ambiguity is at the root of what we do. :)
643. # [16:00] * hsivonen wonders what's happening with WebGL in the Opera land
644. # [16:01] <karlcow> http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=fr&q=site:opera.com+webgl&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest
645. # [16:03] <hsivonen> karlcow: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.opera.com+webgl seems more relevant
646. # [16:04] <karlcow> hmmm not sure. Most of the blogs are on my.opera.com :)
647. # [16:04] <karlcow> on www.opera.com, you will find things which are already deployed
648. # [16:05] <karlcow> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto27/
649. # [16:05] <karlcow> webgl is not deployed for sure.
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661. # [16:32] <karlcow> discovering http://sideshowbarker.github.com/console-spec/
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667. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> karlcow: not much there to discover yet :)
668. # [16:49] <karlcow> but cool to see it started.
669. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> v0.1
670. # [16:50] * Quits: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
671. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> hoping I can get somebody else do finish the 99.9% of work remaining to actually spec it out
672. # [16:50] * karlcow is checking https://bitbucket.org/scope/dragonfly-stp-1/src/b1e2a7ba97c0/src/console-logger/
673. # [16:52] * MikeSmith didn't look at that yet
674. # [16:52] <karlcow> https://bitbucket.org/scope/dragonfly-stp-1/history/src/console-logger/console.js
675. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> console behavior is deceptively simple
676. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> it is not quite as simple to try to spec
677. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> for one thing, console object is now implemented in places other than browser GUI
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679. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> oh man
680. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> I realize I need to publish a new version of this thing
681. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> the source has a bunch of changes
682. # [16:54] <karlcow> :)
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684. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> hmm, wtf… I remember making some changes but they don't seem to show up in the published version
685. # [16:58] <zcorpan> console supports printf-like format strings? really?
686. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: well, tell me what else to call that
687. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> "printf-like" is intentionally vague
688. # [17:01] <zcorpan> i don't mind the terminology, i was just surprised that it was supported
689. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> oh
690. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, it does
691. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> that's another spec wrinkle actually
692. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> or interoperability wrinkle
693. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> because some implementations only support that if the format string is the first argument
694. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> others do even if it's not the first
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696. # [17:03] <zcorpan> does opera support it?
697. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> yeah
698. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> dude
699. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> do you please use Dragonfly
700. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> dogfood
701. # [17:04] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@fedora/tw2113) ("Leaving")
702. # [17:04] <zcorpan> i use dragonfly :)
703. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> whew
704. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> you had me worried for a second
705. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> OK, pushed new version
706. # [17:05] <zcorpan> i get "%s, foo" for console.log("%s", "foo") in df
707. # [17:05] <hasather> MikeSmith: we don't support printf
708. # [17:05] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
709. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> oh
710. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> well, I'm the dumbass ethen
711. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> I could have sworned that you did
712. # [17:05] * gsnedders doesn't use Dragonfly, mainly because everything he does is debugging JIT bugs, and having esdebug Scope service attached disables JIT
713. # [17:06] <hasather> MikeSmith: it's coming though
714. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> k
715. # [17:06] <jgraham> karlcow: the console scope service doesn't have that much to do with what MikeSmith is working on
716. # [17:06] <zcorpan> good thing somebody is writing a spec for it then :)
717. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> heh
718. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> yeah, hopefully somebody other than me
719. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> I made the proof of concept
720. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> somebody smarter than me can make the actual spec
721. # [17:07] * karlcow hides
722. # [17:07] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i'm afraid you might have made a huge mistake there and will be stuck with it
723. # [17:07] <jgraham> MikeSmith: BTW, did you see http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Infrastructure/Requirements/ ?
724. # [17:07] * jgraham will post to the list soon
725. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> jgraham: didn't see it
726. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> but thanks
727. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> very much
728. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> btw, I looked at a couple of existing annotation services
729. # [17:08] <karlcow> I remember something along what zcorpan is saying about bugs. When bugs are assigned to someone, people do not take them. It is better to leave them unassigned until someone really does the work
730. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> Shift+Space for one
731. # [17:08] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
732. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> http://www.shiftspace.org/
733. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> and other which name I forget
734. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> http://reframeit.com/
735. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> both are add-ons for FF
736. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> though Reframeit has a bookmarklet alternative
737. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> which didn't seem to work for me completely
738. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> did I mention that I just pushed an update of the console spec?
739. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.github.com/console-spec/
740. # [17:12] * karlcow is reading the mess about "Expect: 100-continue"
741. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> no idea what that is
742. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> probably some list mail I should be reading but haven't yet
743. # [17:16] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you have severely typoed "Living Standard"
744. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> /me notice http://httpstat.us/ getting some love
745. # [17:16] <jgraham> hsivonen: yt? I was wondering if there would be some way to add support for document.write to the html5lib test format, for cases where using the test as input to document.write should produce different output
746. # [17:16] <jgraham> Well obviously there is *some* way, but I mean a way that would work well for you
747. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: where!? I am the strongest believer in the "Living Standard" dogma… even more than Hixie and annevk
748. # [17:17] <jgraham> (different compared to the normal parser case)
749. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> they just think they believe in it more
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751. # [17:18] <jgraham> Oooh, a license to sell copies of the document
752. # [17:18] <jgraham> I wonder what the market rate for a Console spec is
753. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> anyway, the other problem with console is that it's been implemented outside of browsers
754. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> e.g., in s Node and PhantomJS.
755. # [17:19] <jgraham> Is that a problem?
756. # [17:19] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: "Unofficial Draft"
757. # [17:19] <jgraham> I mean they don't have to be interoperable with browsers
758. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: blame Berjon
759. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> jgraham: other console documentation has stuff about "display a clickable hypertext view of the object"
760. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I guess
761. # [17:20] <karlcow> I'm slowing making my case against 100-continue when used over the public Web
762. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> jgraham: but I thought our goal was to spec out abstract APIs when we can
763. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> and not make assumptations
764. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> or even assumptions
765. # [17:21] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Right, that makes sense
766. # [17:21] <jgraham> So don't specifiy that it must make a clickable hypertext view
767. # [17:22] <jgraham> Just leave all of that as vendor extensions
768. # [17:22] <jgraham> It doesn't need to be interoperable
769. # [17:22] <jgraham> as long as it doesn't throw unexpectedly
770. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> that is exactly what I am attempting to do
771. # [17:23] <jgraham> Add some May level fluff about clickable hypertext views
772. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> Webkit folk have told me they are going to yank a number of the methods that have already implemented
773. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> trace thing for one
774. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> actually, Sam told me that
775. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> to name names
776. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> and I trust Sam implicitly
777. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> and I act on that sense of trust
778. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> matjas: I wonder if Gmail is throttling me? I suspect I'm pinging the email server at least every few minutes, possibly more often.
779. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> matjas: I need to spend time today writing a caching layer.
780. # [17:24] <matjas> TabAtkins: Go ask the Gmail team :)
781. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> jgraham: this why I spec'd it with this "console handler" invention
782. # [17:25] <matjas> TabAtkins: Woohoo, caching. Om nom nom
783. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> or abstraction
784. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> which may or may not map to implementation
785. # [17:25] <jgraham> I see
786. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> anyway, I would really, really prefer that somebody else get some enthusiasm about speccing this
787. # [17:26] * MikeSmith crosses fingers
788. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> I want to be a spec writer just about as much as I want to be a working-group chair
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791. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: to be clear, the "Unofficial Draft" stuff is boilerplate generated by Respec
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793. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, all of us would really like someone to take over our specs ;)
794. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> if I could get one of my secretaries to do it, that would be great
795. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> one professor I work with actually has something like like 7 secretaries
796. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> I kid you not
797. # [17:31] <zcorpan> one for each day of the week?
798. # [17:31] <TabAtkins> Man, I don't want anyone to take over my specs. I like writing specs.
799. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, do you happen to be interested in ranges?
800. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> God no.
801. # [17:32] <jgraham> TabAtkins: That's your dictatorial streak
802. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> innerHTML?
803. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> Let me rephrase. I like writing CSS specs.
804. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: dunno what they all do, but when I want to e-mail him, i have to e-mail this alias address that goes to all his secretaries
805. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> innerText?
806. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> That's all you.
807. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> No, innerText most certainly isn't me
808. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I'm all booked up for spec writing for the next year or so.
809. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> I just want it to die
810. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> Got a half-dozen on my plate, at least.
811. # [17:33] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you should say that Console is a CSS module and TabAtkins will take over it
812. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> Phrase it in terms of the box model and I'm all over it.
813. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> Only *half* a dozen? :)
814. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> Actually... you might be right. It's closer to a dozen.
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816. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> Images, Flexbox, Positioning, Grid/Template, Generated Content, Lists, Variables, Mixins, Modules, Selector Nesting, Box Model Additions, maybe Box Model, SVG Image Baseline.
817. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> I think that's my current list.
818. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> So that's either 12 or 13.
819. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> Box Model would be really awesome :)
820. # [17:36] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know. It'll just be so annoying to write.
821. # [17:36] <jgraham> Maybe BoxModel = Nothing | Just BoxModel
822. # [17:36] <TabAtkins> I wont' even think about it until late Q3, though.
823. # [17:37] <TabAtkins> MONADS
824. # [17:37] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: do you have one spec assigned for each month of the year? :)
825. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> By then, Anne will probably have a good definition of a tree you can use ;)
826. # [17:37] <TabAtkins> Um, more or less, yeah.
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837. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Note that 'image-rendering' has nothing to do with optimization. It *used* to, which is why I map both of the old values to 'auto'. It is instead purely about intent - some images shouldn't be scaled with a blurring algorithm.
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844. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Could you just change the :active section to say "For the purposes of Selectors, 'activating' an element means..."
845. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: That's the only actual disconnect between CSS and HTML right now, if you ignore the fact that CSS's definition is underspecified.
846. # [18:23] <annevk> Ms2ger, the current one is no good?
847. # [18:23] <annevk> Ms2ger, btw, I renamed and it changed the URL... https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core
848. # [18:23] <Ms2ger> Haven't reviewed it
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850. # [18:39] * johnd0e is now known as uf0
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854. # [18:51] <jgraham> Bugzilla needs a throtte on words / bug / unit time
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857. # [19:08] <jgraham> Ms2ger, annevk: Is it known that getAttributeNS returns the empty string rather than null if the attribute is missing?
858. # [19:08] <jgraham> At least in webkit / gecko
859. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> Yes
860. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> annevk removed the note I had about that :)
861. # [19:10] <zcorpan> null seems more useful
862. # [19:11] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@216.239.45.19) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
863. # [19:11] <jgraham> Right, I'm not complaining if it isn't a web-compat problem
864. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> You would know if it was :)
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866. # [19:14] <jgraham> Well, maybe
867. # [19:14] <jgraham> If I had perfect knowledge of all bugs
868. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> You == Opera
869. # [19:14] <jgraham> Well, maybe :p
870. # [19:15] <jgraham> (anyway, I can't see any obvious evidence it is a problem and if Gecko _ WebKit are happy to change it is all good)
871. # [19:15] <jgraham> s/_/+/
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874. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I could have >60,000 tests instead of ~1500. It's a few lines' change. Then Gecko/WebKit pass like 90%+ of tests and Opera/IE9 pass more like 70%. But my original version is much handier if you want to actually see what problems you're having.
875. # [19:17] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I plan to make the output better
876. # [19:18] <jgraham> Like maybe show Number of passes / fails/ timeouts / etc. and have checkboxes to hide/show results in different categories
877. # [19:18] <jgraham> suggestions welcome
878. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> My framework is tailored to my tests, so it knows to do things like group together the same tests for different attributes if they fail the same way. So I don't think a general-purpose harness will wind up being as concise no matter what.
879. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Concise, useful, whatever.
880. # [19:19] <jgraham> Sure, but it can clearly be better than it is now
881. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Anyway, however you slice it, IE and Opera will fail a huge number of tests due to null handling.
882. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> Definitely.
883. # [19:20] <zcorpan> "And I just had to perjure myself when signing-up by saying,"I am only going to post messages about HTML5"!!!" - http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4523
884. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> The philosophy I'm adopting is that I'll test whatever makes sense and not pay much attention to how much that skews failure percentages. Because it's inevitable that some individual bugs will cause massive failures.
885. # [19:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: besides being wrong these days, it's also annoyingly long, and i'm not sure it's helpful against spam anyway
886. # [19:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: could we disable the antispam plugin on the forums?
887. # [19:21] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It's not a problem if we fail lots of tests due to null handling (except in the sense that we have a bug we need to fix), but it is a problem if we can't see other problems due to the null issues
888. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Yes, I'm thinking that's what the original version is good for.
889. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> However you slice it, if you have a failed assert aborting the test, one failed assert will mask subsequent ones.
890. # [19:22] <jgraham> Right, so try not to assert for unrelated things in the same test
891. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> Define "unrelated".
892. # [19:23] <jgraham> It's a judgement of course
893. # [19:23] <jgraham> But it sounds like you are generally winding up with tests that can fail for many different reasons
894. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> The only logical things I see are to make one test per tested attribute (dozens of asserts per test), or one assert per test.
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896. # [19:24] <jgraham> One assert per test sounds more reasonable in that case
897. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> Well, I'm happy to go either way.
898. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger said he preferred the other way, and I weakly prefer it too.
899. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> Given the existence of the original version.
900. # [19:25] <jgraham> Well doing it this way seems to have harmful effects and I'm not sure what the benefits are
901. # [19:25] <jgraham> Indeed it is the strongest argument yet that making a test/assert distinction is harmful
902. # [19:26] <jgraham> biab
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907. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> heycam, could you make a decision one way or another on what null should cast to for WebIDL? Apparently web-compat requires "null"; it would be nice if the spec said so. This is blocking some HTML tests I want to write. http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-DOMString
908. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> s/"null"/""/
909. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> Um, yeah.
910. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> That's what I meant. :)
911. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> Not what you said :)
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913. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> Now can someone point out to me what WebIDL says to do when you do something like "delete document.body.id"?
914. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure the correct answer is "do nothing", but I can't see where it says that.
915. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> jgraham, the reason I like combining the tests a bit more is it encourages implementers to fix bugs more, since it magnifies the difference between a nearly bug-free implementation and a relatively buggy implementation. With one assert per test, nobody's going to get less than 70% regardless.
916. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> But my preference is weak.
917. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> If the testing TF has an opinion, I'll change it back.
918. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> I suspect I don't know ES well enough here . . .
919. # [19:48] * Ms2ger checks
920. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> return true, I think
921. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Where do you see that?
922. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> WebIDL 4.4.5: there MUST be a corresponding property on the interface prototype object, unless:
923. # [19:49] <Philip`> I'd imagine implementers would be more encouraged to fix bugs if the tests accurately pointed out all the bugs, rather than if they obscured the results in order to manipulate the percentages
924. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> IIRC, that means [[GetOwnProperty]] returns undefined
925. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> Philip`, well, my original version is much more convenient for that anyway.
926. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> And I do link to it at the top of the test.
927. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, okay, I'm just going to assume you're right.
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930. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> That's not a good idea in this area, generally :)
931. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> Philip`, are you planning to fix your test bugs soon, btw?
932. # [19:54] * Ms2ger wanted to file a WebIDL bug, noticed AryehGregor already did
933. # [19:59] <zewt> AryehGregor: a good test suite should, whenever possible, expose a particular bug with a particular test; a single bug should only cause multiple tests to fail if the tests are inherently overlapping
934. # [20:00] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Depends on what is considered "soon"
935. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> zewt, that's what my original test harness does.
936. # [20:00] <Philip`> I could probably find this weekend to catch up on the known problems
937. # [20:00] * AryehGregor shrugs
938. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> That would be nice
939. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> Makes no difference to me. Right now I'm working on adding more tests.
940. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> Otherwise Kris will spend half of the next few telcons on them :)
941. # [20:01] <dean-> zcorpan: Hi, I have some feedback on your html5 elements webpage. I wonder if it would be good if you also showed what elements are able to be used as children of each element. Anyway, I think the page is great and it gives people a good intro to the features of html, so thanks for creating the site.
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943. # [20:02] <Philip`> s/find this weekend/find time this weekend/
944. # [20:03] <Philip`> (It's not like the weekend itself is at all challenging to find)
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949. # [20:10] <dean-> zcorpan: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20110212#l-403
950. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Why can't the spec splitter make xrefs work right in the multipage version? :(
951. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> (specifically the backlinks)
952. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> (I guess because those are generated by JS for some crazy reason?)
953. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> I guess the logical place to test the rules for parsing non-negative integers is in reflection tests, right?
954. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> So I suppose I should implement that in JavaScript.
955. # [20:12] * AryehGregor does so
956. # [20:13] <Philip`> If the xrefs were handled earlier (e.g. by Anolis, I guess) then it'd probably work better in the multipage one
957. # [20:13] <Philip`> (I don't think the splitter itself would be a good place to implement the xref feature)
958. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> What needs to be handled?
959. # [20:15] <Philip`> AryehGregor: gsnedders had some old tests for the microsyntaxes - maybe you could use something like that, and pass the values through the reflection system?
960. # [20:15] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-knqphmaczgllyecv)
961. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> Where are they?
962. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> It would take me about ten minutes to write my own, so . . .
963. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Listed on the WHATWG wiki
964. # [20:17] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Associating each element that has an id with every element that links to it, so a script can find all the backrefs without having to scan the whole document, I guess
965. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> Mike wrote that, I think
966. # [20:17] <Workshiva> What if every element had a uuid...
967. # [20:17] * Joins: phrearch (~phrearch_@82-136-229-19.ip.telfort.nl)
968. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> httpstat.us is awesome.
969. # [20:27] <k0rnel> wtf 418 :)
970. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> April 1 RFCs rock.
971. # [20:28] <k0rnel> yea, looking at it now
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974. # [20:31] <heycam> AryehGregor, I will get back to editing Web IDL in a couple of weeks, so yes. (Anne was recently asking about this recently, too.)
975. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> heycam, great, thanks.
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988. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> "Let rounded-value be the number in S that is closest to value, selecting the number with an even significand if there are two equally close values." How is this actually supposed to be implemented?
989. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> Oh, gsnedders cheated and just hardcoded the correct values.
990. # [21:10] * AryehGregor gives up on implementing the float parsing algorithm in JavaScript
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996. # [21:18] <Philip`> AryehGregor: By "cheated" you mean "wrote it in a way that is much more robust and easily verified than a custom-written parser"?
997. # [21:18] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6)
998. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> It's strictly harder to verify manually-written expectations than auto-generated ones, since in the auto-generated case you can always enumerate all the expectations.
999. # [21:19] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.180)
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1005. # [21:30] <Hixie> TabAtkins: 'image-rendering' looked a lot like an optimisation feature when i looked, but i'm glad i'm wrong
1006. # [21:30] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it just means "use a smooth scaling algorithm" or "use a pixel-art scaling algorithm".
1007. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> The old 'optimizeSpeed' and 'optimizeQuality' values are aliases for 'auto' (smooth blend) now.
1008. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> Why?
1009. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> Why to which?
1010. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> optimize* > auto
1011. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Because user agents should always be optimizing both speed and quality as much as possible given the system constraints.
1012. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Also: because the definition of a "speedy" and "quality" scaling algorithm changes as computing resources become cheaper.
1013. # [21:32] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-171-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
1014. # [21:33] <zewt> well, there are three meaningful choices, not two
1015. # [21:33] <zewt> "be as fast as possible", "be as high quality as possible", and "use the most general-purpose tradeoff"
1016. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> In practice, you always want the third.
1017. # [21:34] <zewt> no, not really
1018. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> The UA *must* use a cheaper algo when it's fighting for CPU, even if you say to use high-quality.
1019. # [21:34] <zewt> if you're an image host and you're displaying an image scaled to the user's browser window, you want to hint the browser to choose quality over speed
1020. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Similarly, the UA *should* use better algos when doing so is easy, even if you at some point in the past mistakenly thought that it should be using only cheap ones.
1021. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> The browser should always choose as much quality as possible, given the resources it has.
1022. # [21:36] <zewt> that assumes it's possible to make a correct heuristic determination when the image is rendered; I'm not sure that's reasonable
1023. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, the browser can trade off rendering time against quality.
1024. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> The author might prefer that the image take longer to display but be higher-quality.
1025. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> The browser always has unlimited time, in principle.
1026. # [21:36] <zewt> and of course, the browser should always be allowed to ignore a hint like "use the best quality available"; it's always just a hint
1027. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> zewt: If it's possible *at all*, it's best done by the browser at the moment the iamge is rendered, rather than an author at some point in the past who has no idea what sort of device the user is running on.
1028. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> If you're providing the image for download, you might be okay with it taking significantly longer to scale.
1029. # [21:37] <zewt> (well, not necessarily with things like canvas blitting, but for page rendering)
1030. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> The browser doesn't know what purpose the author intends the image be used for.
1031. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Scaling has no effect on downloading.
1032. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Yes, true, not in this case.
1033. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> For, say, canvas, that wouldn't be true.
1034. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> I can't think of any case where you'd have good reason to change it around for CSS.
1035. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> An author who, in 2005, thought that his image was too big and should thus use a cheap scaling algorithm, is wrong now in 2011.
1036. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> Similarly, the author who thought that his image scaled fine with a high-quality algo on his desktop machine is wrong when I view the site on my phone.
1037. # [21:38] <zewt> how is a browser going to know that the purpose of a page is displaying an image, so the quality of scaling a particular image is more important than usual, and more important than other images on the page?
1038. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> zewt: If you're scaling every image on the page, you're doing things wrong.
1039. # [21:39] <zewt> if higher-quality image scaling becomes very cheap, then at that point browsers are free to simply ignore the hint
1040. # [21:39] <zewt> TabAtkins: no, that's an incorrect generalization
1041. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> zewt: It's already true. It used to be that bilinear scaling was the "quality" algorithm. Now, bilinear is easy and cheap on the GPU, so you can almost always use it, and algos like Lanczos are the "high-quality" version.
1042. # [21:40] <zewt> so browsers should be free to treat "high quality" hints as lanczos (which is what I'd expect, with today's hardware)
1043. # [21:40] <zewt> (desktop hardware, that is)
1044. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> Browsers should be free to *always* use Lanczos, if they can grab the CPU for it.
1045. # [21:41] <zewt> if lanczos scaling becomes the "cheap" algorithm, browsers can treat that as the default, or at that point simply stop paying attention to "high-quality" hints entirely
1046. # [21:41] <zewt> TabAtkins: sure; I'm not suggesting anything but a hint
1047. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> And they should be free to drop down to nearest-neighbor if there's too much going on, regardless of what the author indicates.
1048. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> zewt: I understand. My point is that hinting in this way provides very close to zero benefit for the browser.
1049. # [21:42] <zewt> and I think that's wrong.
1050. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> Okay.
1051. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> zewt, give specific real-world use-cases.
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1053. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> I know that our graphics people agree that optimization-hinting isn't useful for this sort of thing.
1054. # [21:42] <zewt> i did; an image host that displays images scaled to the user's browser window
1055. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> (It can be useful in some cases.)
1056. # [21:43] * Joins: nessy1 (~Adium@1.42.74.246)
1057. # [21:43] <zewt> in that case, image quality is at the forefront, since the entire purpose of the page is displaying that image
1058. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> Heh, if image quality is at the forefront, you serve a larger image and don't scale at all.
1059. # [21:43] <zewt> but like I said: scaled to the user's browser window
1060. # [21:43] <zewt> you can't have a separate version of the image for every possible window size :)
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1062. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> Sure. Now, how does a hint help the browser here? If it has the CPU for it, it'll use a high-quality scaling algo anyway. If it doesn't, it wont'. The only time the hint could possibly matter is if you're in a situation where lots of images need scaling and you have a lightly constrained CPU.
1063. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> zewt, is that actually a real-world use-case? Do you know of a site with that requirement?
1064. # [21:45] <zewt> but that's exactly what's wrong: it *won't* use a higher-quality algorithm
1065. # [21:45] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-157-52.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
1066. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> And that depends on the browser detecting this and not just deciding that the best thing to do is bail and scale everything cheaply, so they dont' stress the CPU more than necessary.
1067. # [21:45] <zewt> firefox won't use lanczos to scale the image today
1068. # [21:46] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@175.33.245.249) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1069. # [21:49] <zewt> AryehGregor: http://oreno.imouto.org/post/browse#/order:random%20s (note: NWS content on that site, but that URL should filter it out)
1070. # [21:50] * AryehGregor isn't interested in looking at sites like that
1071. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> That's still a valid case. ^_^
1072. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> Hmm, nobody who implements reflected doubles follows the spec for IDL sets: data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>var el = document.createElement("meter"); el.max = 10000000000; alert([el.getAttribute("max"),Number("10000000000")]);</script>
1073. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> A site like that should be using unscaled thumbnails at the bottom, and then scale the main image. As it's the only image on the page being scaled, your case doesn't apply.
1074. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> getAttribute() returns "1e10", not "10000000000".
1075. # [21:52] <zewt> TabAtkins: the main image is scaled at runtime; double-click the window, or resize the browser
1076. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> zewt: Yeah, I understand.
1077. # [21:52] <zewt> (the thumbnails actually can be scaled, too, for mobile)
1078. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> But your use-case for hinting relies on there being many scaled images on the page, some of which can be low-quality and some which should be high-quality.
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1080. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Are 0 and -0 meaningfully different in JavaScript?
1081. # [21:54] <Philip`> Yes
1082. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> They're different IEEE doubles.
1083. # [21:54] <Philip`> Divide a non-zero value by them
1084. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> But 0 === -0, right?
1085. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> In webkit, yeah.
1086. # [21:54] <Philip`> Yes (but 1/0 !== 1/-0 so they're not actually equivalent)
1087. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, Gecko and Opera too.
1088. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Also String(-0) == "0".
1089. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Confusing.
1090. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> So they're the same except where they're not.
1091. # [21:58] * Quits: mzu (~mischa@188-222-214-79.zone13.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: mzu)
1092. # [21:58] <espadrine> Well, 1/+0 is +infinity, right? And 1/-0 is -infinity... So it's not completely absurd.
1093. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> No, but I'd expect at least String(-0) == "-0". Although then 0 === -0 but String(0) != String(-0) . . .
1094. # [22:00] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.180) (Quit: othermaciej)
1095. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Maybe people shouldn't make up values that don't mathematically exist. :)
1096. # [22:01] <zewt> heh, floating-point infinity has got to be one of the biggest cases of where developers spend a lot of time thinking about something and very little time actually using it
1097. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> Maybe you should be more accepting of alternate mathematical models.
1098. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> There's a reason -0 is the same as 0 in mathematics.
1099. # [22:01] <zewt> in my 15-or-so years of using C, I've never once ever seen or written code that intentionally uses INF
1100. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> It's a one-line proof using the group axioms.
1101. # [22:02] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.180)
1102. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Who needs groups?
1103. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> I do all my math over magmas.
1104. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, better than PHP's false == "0" != "" == false.
1105. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Additive identities are useful.
1106. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Well, JS sort of has one because it fakes equality.
1107. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> The operation isn't well-defined with respect to equality.
1108. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> This discussion is an example of the confusion that causes.
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1111. # [22:07] <zewt> > But ideally, we should hash this out with Microsoft people weighing in here on es-discuss (I'm told they're not allowed to participate on whatwg lists).
1112. # [22:07] <zewt> heh
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1115. # [22:15] * AryehGregor succeeded in getting Opera to fail all tests in the -onepage version
1116. # [22:16] <zewt> i'm not entirely following what you're doing, but i have to seriously question the methodology if you're editing tests to make them fail in particular browsers, heh
1117. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> If someone can confirm for me how delete is supposed to work, then I can get WebKit to fail everything too because of: data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>delete document.head.id; alert(typeof document.head.id);</script>
1118. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> I wasn't really being serious. :P
1119. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> The onepage version is silly, it fails the whole test if there's a single detected bug in that particular attribute's reflection.
1120. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> I'll probably replace it with one that runs all the tests regardless.
1121. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> But I do think it's nice that I was able to find so many bugs in every browser.
1122. # [22:17] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@p5DDBAEDF.dip.t-dialin.net)
1123. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Sadly, I don't have time to continue isolating and reporting all of them like I was doing before.
1124. # [22:18] <zewt> want to know a fun bug? set a timer during pagehide in FF3.6
1125. # [22:18] <zewt> iirc it'll be fired after the tab is closed, heh
1126. # [22:18] <zewt> fortunately, fixed in 4
1127. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> Submit a test to the test suite!
1128. # [22:19] <zewt> heh, sort of an interesting challenge to come up with a way to test that
1129. # [22:19] <zewt> maybe trigger a page change with window.location, and have the timer set a flag in localStorage
1130. # [22:20] * AryehGregor observes that Firefox, Chrome, and Opera take from 7 to 14 seconds to run his test suite, while IE9rc takes 74 seconds
1131. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> annevk, what do you need for the glossary thing?
1132. # [22:22] <AryehGregor> Okay, now back to execCommand().
1133. # [22:22] <AryehGregor> If you, e.g., bold something like <div><p>Foo <p>Bar</div>, Gecko does <div style=font-weight:bold><p>Foo <p>Bar</div>. Everyone else does something like <div><p><b>Foo </b><p><b>Bar</b></div>.
1134. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> I initially specced the latter, but the former is starting to make more sense to me.
1135. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> Opinions?
1136. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> Specifically, you don't have to know anything about where <b> can validly go.
1137. # [22:23] * Ms2ger tends to prefer matching Gecko :)
1138. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> In the latter approach, you have to know that you can't put it around the <div> or <p>, which is annoying.
1139. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> And will change if new elements are introduced.
1140. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> So I'm going to re-spec it.
1141. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, everyone's going to have to rewrite their implementations from scratch anyway to match any conceivable spec, from what I've seen so far.
1142. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Since everyone does crazy different things.
1143. # [22:24] <Ms2ger> Aww
1144. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> Unless I just spec exactly what one browser does.
1145. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> Or almost exactly.
1146. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> Maybe if Gecko's sufficiently saner than everyone else, I'll do that. We'll see.
1147. # [22:27] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-99.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
1148. # [22:27] <erlehmann> implying gecko was sane
1149. # [22:27] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@p5DDBAEDF.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1150. # [22:27] <zewt> the implication knocked him offline
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1154. # [22:30] <zewt> AryehGregor: what are you referring to, re "bold something"?
1155. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> zewt, execCommand().
1156. # [22:31] <zewt> (makes me wonder what happens if you then unbold "Foo"--inserting another font-weight: makes sense)
1157. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> Depends where your selection is.
1158. # [22:32] * Quits: benschwarz (~benschwar@59.167.185.148) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1159. # [22:32] <zewt> eg. you can bold things with <b>, but there's no element-level analogue for un-bolding as there is with font-weight
1160. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> Unbolding "<b>Foo</b>" results in "Foo".
1161. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> Unbolding the "oo" in "<b>Foo</b>" results in "<b>F</b>oo". Etc.
1162. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> In fact, bolding "Foo <strong>bar</strong>" generally results in something like "<b>Foo bar</b>".
1163. # [22:33] <zewt> yeah--seems like that would get a little complicated with nesting, eg. <b><i>Foo</i></b>--now unbold "oo" and you have to shuffle stuff around
1164. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> It's all evil magic, and I aim to uncover its deepest secrets and expose them to the light of day.
1165. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> Yep, undoubtedly.
1166. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> I'll find out!
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1171. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> Wait, am I smoking something?
1172. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> Now Gecko's behaving differently.
1173. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> :(
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1176. # [22:40] <zewt> heisenbrowser
1177. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> Oh, there's a styleWithCSS command . . . sigh.
1178. # [22:42] <zewt> dreaming of a world where i can tell gmail to ignore fonts in emails
1179. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> No, I'm just confusing myself even more. Sigh.
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1218. # Session Close: Thu Feb 17 00:00:00 2011

The end :)