/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Feb 21 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:24] <annevk> I guess DOM Features should also be a top-level section
  10. # [00:25] <annevk> maybe as "Features (deprecated)"
  11. # [00:27] <annevk> or maybe bury it somewhere alongside DOMImplementation...
  12. # [00:30] <zewt> annevk: regarding the subtle event dispatch difference between dom-core and dom-events (stopPropagation/preventDefault called before dispatch); should that be mentioned in 8.1? it's an obscure difference, but maybe important to make note of for that reason alone (easy to miss)
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  18. # [00:37] <annevk> yeah, should probably do that
  19. # [00:37] <annevk> though it's really a bug in DOM Events I think
  20. # [00:38] <annevk> because otherwise if you create an event yourself and invoke stopPropagation on it and then dispatch it... nothing happens
  21. # [00:39] <zewt> I can't think of any reason to call stopPropagation before dispatch anyway, so for that case I think either definition is good enough
  22. # [00:40] <zewt> maybe I could contrive a really weird case where being able to call preventDefault before dispatch would be useful, but I'd have to really try, heh
  23. # [00:40] <annevk> hmm, that is actually what happens in browsers
  24. # [00:41] <annevk> for stopPropagation that is
  25. # [00:42] <annevk> well
  26. # [00:42] <zewt> it seems like the dom events way requires having a separate hidden state, separating whether to continue propagation from the defaultPrevented attribute
  27. # [00:42] <zewt> which is lame heh
  28. # [00:42] <annevk> it's not what happens in browsers
  29. # [00:42] <annevk> because if you call stopPropagation
  30. # [00:42] <annevk> dispatch twice
  31. # [00:43] <annevk> it doesn't dispatch
  32. # [00:43] <zewt> do browsers just not clear it at all?
  33. # [00:43] <annevk> oh, Gecko does, Chrome doesn't
  34. # [00:43] <annevk> Opera is like Chrome
  35. # [00:44] <annevk> I wonder why DOM Events cites backwards compatibility as a reason here...
  36. # [00:44] <zewt> yuck: "... and determine whether an event has been canceled through the Event.defaultPrevented attribute while the object is being dispatched"
  37. # [00:45] <zewt> suggesting DOM L3's defaultPrevented was only thinking of that attribute being used during dispatch, and not by the dispatcher after the event returns
  38. # [00:45] <zewt> in which case what L3 does makes sense
  39. # [00:46] <annevk> but that's not what's actually implemented
  40. # [00:46] <zewt> yeah
  41. # [00:46] <annevk> I like my model better :p
  42. # [00:47] <zewt> so Chrome doesn't clear the flag at all, and you can effectively only dispatch an event once?
  43. # [00:47] <zewt> i mean, if it's prevented
  44. # [00:47] <zewt> er, stopPropagation'd
  45. # [00:48] <annevk> well either my model or we make initEvent() reset it I suppose
  46. # [00:49] <annevk> anyway bedtime
  47. # [00:49] <annevk> nn
  48. # [00:49] <zewt> later
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  160. # [05:09] <GPHemsley> I don't suppose any WebVTT validators have cropped up yet?
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  166. # [05:19] <GPHemsley> Also, why are there no samples/examples of WebVTT within the spec?
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  237. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=617528#c1
  238. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> Paul Roget asks, "My main concern is security. How can we make it clear that these menu-items are not from Firefox?"
  239. # [08:06] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  240. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> anybody have thoughts?
  241. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ?
  242. # [08:07] <zewt> given that they can't actually do anything insecure, what's the actual risk?
  243. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> seems like putting an icon of some kind next to each of them
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  245. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> zewt: I guess Paul doesn't want users to assume the items have any level of trust given to them by the browser
  246. # [08:09] <zewt> you can already style fake things that look like browser prompts, eg. make a bar at the top that looks like FF or Chrome's security prompts
  247. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> sure
  248. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> that doesn't mean browsers should just give up and not attempt to have indicators where they can
  249. # [08:10] <zewt> but they also shouldn't have indicators sprinkled everywhere based on objections that aren't substantiated enough
  250. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> and in this case it's not just about security anyway
  251. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> heh
  252. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> geez
  253. # [08:11] <zewt> people won't understand "icon == not from the browser"
  254. # [08:11] <zewt> and uglifying browser items isn't very nice, either--you should be able to provide your own icon, I'd think
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  256. # [08:12] <othermaciej> context menus can already be replaced in other ways
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  260. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> sure
  261. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> and this is not something the spec needs to necessarily address at all
  262. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> it's an implementation detail, and he's asking for feedback
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  265. # [08:15] <othermaciej> I understand the general concern about letting web sites hook up things that look like trusted UI
  266. # [08:15] <zewt> right
  267. # [08:15] <othermaciej> though the context menu is a low risk area
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  269. # [08:24] <zewt> mental note: never view image on a canvas in FF. heh
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  277. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/pgriess/node-webworker
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  283. # [08:53] <ben_h> j #html5
  284. # [08:54] <ben_h> it seems someone's taken my slash
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  311. # [09:45] <annevk> mornings
  312. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> おはよう
  313. # [09:47] <annevk> I think the common response to something like that is "fuck you too" but lets use Google translate first
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  315. # [09:47] <annevk> :)
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  317. # [09:49] <Peter-> Goedemorgen, MikeSmith!
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  319. # [09:49] <Peter-> and annevk/others of course
  320. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> Peter-: hey hey
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  323. # [09:57] <ben_h> こんいちわ MikeSmith
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  325. # [10:02] <zewt> こんにちは :P
  326. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> I say こんちや sometimes
  327. # [10:03] <Dashiva> ちわす
  328. # [10:04] <Dashiva> I guess we're too old for that
  329. # [10:04] <zewt> ここは夜だけど
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  332. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> if you want to hear some fun spoken Japanese, search for ロペ on Youtube and watch some of those
  333. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=93D23F5D69152DE6
  334. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Y2QGnButY
  335. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> it's gold
  336. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> man, the fan on my MikeBook is failing
  337. # [10:09] <zewt> heh, i can't follow natural japanese at all
  338. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> I hope it lasts long enough until the refresh arrives
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  340. # [10:09] <annevk> by MikeBook you mean your patched black MacBook?
  341. # [10:09] <zewt> if regular people all had the enunciation of voice actors, maybe I'd manage
  342. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  343. # [10:09] <annevk> wow
  344. # [10:10] <annevk> you've had that laptop for as long as I can remember :)
  345. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> yeah
  346. # [10:10] <Dashiva> zewt: And they speak so quickly
  347. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> I dread replacing it because I'll lose all my stickers
  348. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> some people from Kyoto speak more slowly
  349. # [10:11] <annevk> btw peoples, now is your time to scream: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-notification/2011Feb/0005.html (well, don't)
  350. # [10:11] <Dashiva> まじ半端ねえ、あれ
  351. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> I wish somebody would make subtitles for those ロペ videos, because the stuff those guys are saying is really funny
  352. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> anyway, I have to drop off for a bit
  353. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> back later
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  385. # [11:36] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-search-provider-apis
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  394. # [11:44] <zewt> http://isolani.co.uk/blog/javascript/BreakingTheWebWithHashBangs <- it's impossible to take this guy seriously, heh
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  396. # [11:46] <zewt> a bunch of mysterious handwaving for the fact that it's absolutely critical to every web app, and "breaking the web" is such a ridiculous overstatement, it undermines his whole argument
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  398. # [11:47] <annevk> nothing wrong with a bit of hyperbole every now and then
  399. # [11:48] <Workshiva> To be fair, I really don't consider news sites web applications
  400. # [11:48] <zewt> not when it's taken so far it sounds like satire
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  405. # [11:58] <Workshiva> In a way it's good
  406. # [11:58] <Workshiva> Lets the people still stuck in the 80s realize that javascript is here to stay
  407. # [11:59] <Workshiva> And if they don't start working with it, they might not like the results :)
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  416. # [12:17] <annevk> Workshiva, been reading www-tag lately? :)
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  418. # [12:22] <Workshiva> annevk: I only ever read that when someone links it
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  429. # [13:03] <Evet> is JSONP really insecure for private data?
  430. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2011/02/frame_accurate_video_in_html5.html
  431. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> "as of this week, after 120 emails, the bleeding edge development versions of several HTML5 implementations (as used in Safari, Chrome, Mozilla and many others) are now fully frame accurate"
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  438. # [13:26] <ben_h> MikeSmith: awesome!
  439. # [13:28] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  440. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> it's great to see an article like that giving credit to the actual developers who did the work
  441. # [13:29] <ben_h> hell yeah
  442. # [13:29] <ben_h> developers are pretty cool these days
  443. # [13:29] <ben_h> :)
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  449. # [13:39] <Workshiva> Evet: If any site you visit can access the data, would you call it private?
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  451. # [13:43] <erlehmann> opera devs, please support CORS
  452. # [13:43] <erlehmann> thanks
  453. # [13:43] <erlehmann> ._.
  454. # [13:46] <Evet> :)
  455. # [13:49] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.68) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  456. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> the comments about Workers in http://dt.deviantart.com/blog/38471599/ are particularly interesting
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  460. # [13:55] <annevk> hmm, my schedule for today was not very ambitious
  461. # [13:55] <annevk> I wonder if I missed something
  462. # [13:58] <annevk> that blog post from the BBC is a nice change from the one some time ago
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  465. # [14:00] <Evet> i wish flash sockets + html5 websockets cover 100% of browsers
  466. # [14:02] <annevk> MikeSmith, maybe you can reply to John's email about the draft with information on pubrules?
  467. # [14:02] <annevk> or I can do it
  468. # [14:02] <annevk> that is, giving a link to http://www.w3.org/Guide/pubrules
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  471. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: if you can, that'd be great
  472. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> I looked for him on #chromium but not finding him
  473. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> the source really should be updated to use the JS respec
  474. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> but I'm not sure it's worth stopping to take time to do that now
  475. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> though it actually wouldn't take too much time
  476. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> I don't know whether he's got the source set up that way because he actually prefers that, instead of editing HTML and using JS, or what
  477. # [14:14] <annevk> I know nothing about Respec
  478. # [14:14] <annevk> but I'll bring it up
  479. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> はい
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  481. # [14:16] <annevk> MikeSmith, do I need to email out some pubrequests?
  482. # [14:16] <annevk> MikeSmith, guess we need shortname approval
  483. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> yeah
  484. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> actually
  485. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> need to mail the chairs list
  486. # [14:18] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  487. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> "The Chair sends a transition request to the Domain Lead(s) responsible for the group(s) publishing the document, cc'ing w3t-comm@w3.org and chairs@w3.org"
  488. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> "The goal of the transition request is to secure an archived record of the Domain Lead(s)' approval of the title, and shortname."
  489. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> I will give PLH a heads-up about this today
  490. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> oh
  491. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> it's a holiday in the US I guess
  492. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> he'll probably be on for a bit anyway
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  494. # [14:24] <annevk> okay, I can do that
  495. # [14:25] <annevk> first ever email to chairs I think
  496. # [14:25] <annevk> back to Member-only territory brrr
  497. # [14:26] * kennyluck wonders whether folks here know how pronounce はい
  498. # [14:26] <wilhelm> kennyluck: Hai.
  499. # [14:27] <wilhelm> (は on its own is usually “wa”, though.)
  500. # [14:27] <Peter-> Iie!
  501. # [14:28] <kennyluck> for reasons I don't know, this word gives me a funny image.
  502. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> annevk: chairs list really should be public
  503. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> i guess I shouldn't say that
  504. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> I guess the issue with doing that is, some chairs still have some member-only groups…
  505. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> maybe we should have a chairs list for all the public groups, and a chairs list for all the member-only groups
  506. # [14:41] <annevk> MikeSmith, emailed
  507. # [14:41] <annevk> MikeSmith, included request for being able to copy a public list going forward
  508. # [14:42] <annevk> MikeSmith, hopefully I got it all right, I didn't look up the chair guidelines doc as I couldn't locate it quickly
  509. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> I just read it, it's fine as-is
  510. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> I suspect plh answer will be, you are free to copy to www-archive if you want
  511. # [14:45] <annevk> mkay
  512. # [14:45] <annevk> that is something
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  522. # [15:25] <annevk> did http://esw.w3.org/HTML/history get lost somehow?
  523. # [15:25] <annevk> just found that again via hsivonen slides who just tweeted that w3.org never go wrong
  524. # [15:26] <annevk> w3.org URLs*
  525. # [15:26] <annevk> hsivonen's*
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  536. # [16:15] <Philip`> Does anyone have data on how frequent PAC (proxy auto-config) usage is?
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  540. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: hmm
  541. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> if so, my fault
  542. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> damn
  543. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> not lost
  544. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> just different URL
  545. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> eh?
  546. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> something borked
  547. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> annevk: it's at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/History
  548. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> now I just need to figure out how to get http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/history to redirect to there
  549. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> hmm, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Redirects
  550. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> but that can only redirect to a page on the same wiki, not to an arbitrary URL
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  552. # [16:54] <thiessenp> (sorry off topic but :) Can anyone recommend a good JS crypto library (RSA, BigInt etc.)?
  553. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> thiessenp: not off topic :)
  554. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> but I don't know of one personally
  555. # [16:56] * MikeSmith looks around for Adam Barth
  556. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> wirepair: ↑
  557. # [16:57] <zcorpan> thiessenp: i think window.crypto.getRandomValue or what it's called is being added to address that
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  559. # [16:59] <annevk> is it just me or has interest in WHATWG Weekly waned somewhat?
  560. # [16:59] <annevk> I wonder if it should maybe done in a somewhat different way
  561. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> how do you measure interest in it?
  562. # [17:00] <annevk> tweets / comments / feedback via IRC/email
  563. # [17:00] <Peter-> get used to it :p
  564. # [17:00] <annevk> haven't looked at stats recently
  565. # [17:01] <Peter-> comments on my webkit posts are lowish lately as well, as are the tweets
  566. # [17:01] <annevk> though I did notice subscriber count went up for the feed in Google reader
  567. # [17:01] <Peter-> view counts are still rising though
  568. # [17:01] <kennyluck> I have great interest in it, personally.
  569. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> what is the anti-TPM clause in CC licenses?
  570. # [17:02] <annevk> Peter-, interesting
  571. # [17:02] <nimbupani> annevk: maybe coz we know you are leaving :P
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  573. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> so next month marks the seventh anniversary of the whatwg.org domain being registered
  574. # [17:07] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  575. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> three months prior to the infamous W3C Workshop on Web Applications and Compound Document
  576. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> s
  577. # [17:09] <annevk> a year for each capital
  578. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> capital?
  579. # [17:11] <annevk> that is quite long
  580. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> ah
  581. # [17:12] <annevk> guess I'm getting close to a decade of something
  582. # [17:12] <annevk> MikeSmith, you got it? heh; useless number game :p
  583. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> for me, it's close to 10 years since I moved to Japan
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  585. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> even more: my daughter just turned 13 years old this weekend
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  587. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> oh, "technological protection measures"
  588. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> jesus
  589. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> why don't they just say DRM?
  590. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> acronym proliferation
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  596. # [17:36] <Lachy> MikeSmith, TPM is more generic than DRM. AIUI, TPM can be any protection measure, either analogue or digital.
  597. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> yeah well
  598. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> one can always mint more precise acronyms I guess
  599. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> but point taken
  600. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> Lachy: hey
  601. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> btw, where you been, man?
  602. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> you've become a ghost
  603. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> you working on some secret project
  604. # [17:45] <Lachy> I'm working on lots of stuff internally at opera and haven't had too much time to follow what goes in HTML lately
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  608. # [17:46] <Lachy> MikeSmith, also, because of the way bugzilla is used on public-html, it makes it much more difficult than it should be to actually follow anything.
  609. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> yep
  610. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> not my choice
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  612. # [17:47] <Lachy> I really wish we could go back to how it was before bugzilla became used as a poorly designed forum, that I hate even more than real forums
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  650. # [19:12] <yecril71pl> Why is document in the lexical scope of code in event handler attributes?
  651. # [19:13] <yecril71pl> like onclick="alert (write === document. write)"?
  652. # [19:16] <bga_> strange
  653. # [19:16] <bga_> `true` in chrome11
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  657. # [19:18] <yecril71pl> and in Konqueror
  658. # [19:18] <bga_> in opera too
  659. # [19:19] <yecril71pl> Since browsers are unanimous, there must be some method in this madness
  660. # [19:21] <bga_> but
  661. # [19:21] <bga_> var a = document.createElement('a'); a.setAttribute('onclick', 'alert (title === document.title)'); a.onclick()
  662. # [19:22] <bga_> false
  663. # [19:22] <yecril71pl> in event handler attributes only
  664. # [19:24] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  665. # [19:26] <yecril71pl> DOM-Level-2-Events 1.3.2.: No technique is provided to allow HTML 4.0 event listeners access to the context information defined for each event.
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  667. # [19:30] <yecril71pl> Neither HTML 4 nor DOM Level 1 discuss binding of events
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  670. # [19:34] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#event-handler-content-attributes
  671. # [19:34] <Philip`> "Let Scope be the result of NewObjectEnvironment(the element's Document, the global environment)."
  672. # [19:34] <Philip`> Sounds like that might be it
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  676. # [19:38] <yecril71pl> Thanks, that cuts it. Any background? Was it in DOM 0?
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  678. # [19:40] <Philip`> I have no idea
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  708. # [20:53] * yecril71pl found it: http://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/webprog/jscript/ch19_01.htm, 19.1.6: Scope of Event Handlers
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  710. # [20:54] <yecril71pl> Note that it actually pulls all properties of containing elements, not just Document
  711. # [20:54] <yecril71pl> HTML5 takes a more modest apporach
  712. # [20:54] <yecril71pl> HTML5 takes a more modest approach
  713. # [20:55] <yecril71pl> It is like extended "this", and it is more logical this way.
  714. # [20:56] * yecril71pl means more consistent
  715. # [20:56] <yecril71pl> So why did HTML5 choose to include that Document as an exception?
  716. # [21:00] <nonge_> Would it be 'right' to use <canvas> for an "eyecandy only" animation? … wich would normally be the job of CSS, but canvas-like stuff is not possible with it :/
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  719. # [21:04] <yecril71pl> Flanagan’s book, however, does not provide any further references; it does not even say who Flanagan is.
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  721. # [21:13] <yecril71pl> the technical term for it is "augmented scope chain"
  722. # [21:14] <yecril71pl> http://www.jibbering.com/faq/names/event_handler.html disagrees, and includes only FORM and document.
  723. # [21:20] <nonge_> for example, using an empty <canvas></canvas>, which only use is "simulating" an background-image (with z-index)
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  732. # [21:34] <annevk> Gecko has document.contentType apparently
  733. # [21:35] <annevk> we have some bug that requests it (not a compat issue)
  734. # [21:35] <annevk> guess that should be in HTML, given that it defines page loading and such
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  736. # [21:44] <annevk> going through TAG minutes...
  737. # [21:44] * Quits: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148) (Quit: Leaving...)
  738. # [21:44] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/08-minutes#item03 still actively considering DTDs...
  739. # [21:44] <annevk> for HTML
  740. # [21:46] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/09-minutes seems to cover a bunch of HTML stuff too
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  743. # [21:52] <annevk> couldn't find much interesting stuff
  744. # [21:53] <annevk> at least what interests me
  745. # [21:53] <annevk> I believe that does include web architecture, but apparently a different kind
  746. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> Is it just me, or can I not actually click on this button in Opera while I have the web inspector thing loaded? http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/test/bold.html
  747. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> Because that seems . . . well, makes it sort of hard to use.
  748. # [21:58] <jacobolus> annevk: did you intend to have the latest whatwg blog post end with a sentence fragment?
  749. # [21:58] <jacobolus> annevk: it seems like there was supposed to be something after the bit that's there
  750. # [21:59] <jacobolus> (http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-search-provider-apis)
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  753. # [22:10] <annevk> poor wording
  754. # [22:11] <annevk> fixed
  755. # [22:11] <annevk> ta jacobolus
  756. # [22:11] <jacobolus> :)
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  764. # [22:27] <benschwarz> Its out! http://germanforblack.com/articles/html5-for-web-developers
  765. # [22:29] <annevk> benschwarz, "Thankyou" -> "Thank you"?
  766. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> I think I have finally figured out a workable and sane initial definition for execCommand("bold").
  767. # [22:30] <benschwarz> annevk, nice pickup, thanks
  768. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> It has taken me something like 15 hours.
  769. # [22:31] <annevk> was that the command you started out with?
  770. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  771. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> So it includes a bit of time to get familiar with execCommand() itself.
  772. # [22:31] <annevk> figuring out the model is typically the hardest bit
  773. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> In this case, I spent most of the time figuring out a sane way to sane "make all the stuff in this Range bold/unbold".
  774. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> s/to sane/to say/
  775. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> Ranges are *way* too complicated for this.
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  777. # [22:32] <zewt> s/for this//
  778. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> :)
  779. # [22:32] <annevk> doesn't execCommand operate on Selection?
  780. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> Yes, which is defined in terms of Ranges.
  781. # [22:33] <annevk> right, just saying there could be multiple making it more fun potentially
  782. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> It's a one-to-one mapping in every browser except Firefox, which allows multiple Ranges per Selection, but that turned out to be easy to define away.
  783. # [22:33] <annevk> hopefully you do not allow overlapping ranges within a selection
  784. # [22:33] <zewt> i hate multi-ranges, because it makes "Read more at:" clipboard hijacking way too easy :| (though it's possible to do without it)
  785. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> That is allowed, but the behavior is simple anyway.
  786. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> If you have a text node "Foobar", and the first range contains "Foob" and the second contains "obar", and you bold it, then Firefox produces something like "<b>Fo</b>ob<b>ar</b>".
  787. # [22:34] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  788. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> Or, no.
  789. # [22:34] * AryehGregor tests that
  790. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I just say to style the Ranges one by one, in order.
  791. # [22:34] <annevk> and the ranges are live?
  792. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> . . . yeah, well, that's a separate question.
  793. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> No one has even attempted to define how Ranges behave under DOM mutation.
  794. # [22:35] <annevk> well it sort of matters if you are gonna operate on them :)
  795. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> Which actually is a practical problem for execCommand(), yes.
  796. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> It's occurred to me.
  797. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> But first things first.
  798. # [22:35] <annevk> looking forward to reading through this one day
  799. # [22:35] <annevk> gonna sleep now
  800. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> Here's the draft now: http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/editcommands.html
  801. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I could use a list of execCommand() usages, to figure out which features people actually use and how they use them.
  802. # [22:37] <annevk> good times
  803. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Wow, there are a heck of a lot of them.
  804. # [22:37] <annevk> btw
  805. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> This will take me weeks for sure.
  806. # [22:37] <annevk> you should contact Roland
  807. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Who's Roland?
  808. # [22:38] <annevk> he works on contenteditable/execCommand testing
  809. # [22:38] <annevk> at least some part of his time
  810. # [22:38] <annevk> /msg'd you detaild
  811. # [22:38] <annevk> s
  812. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> Oh, is that related to the stuff that Google submitted to the whatwg at some point?
  813. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> They seemed to be concerned with the stuff I didn't start with, so I put it aside for the time being.
  814. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> But thanks, I'll contact him.
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  816. # [22:39] <annevk> it's very much about what exactly execCommand should do given some situation
  817. # [22:40] <annevk> http://groups.google.com/group/browserscope
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  820. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> Thanks, I'll take a look.
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  844. # [23:38] <benschwarz> Hixie — maybe one you can help with https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/issues/#issue/33
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The end :)