/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-28 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Feb 28 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [06:04] <zewt> bleh
# [06:04] <zewt> is it bad that IE has gone from "damn you for not following the spec, IE" to "damn you for following the spec, IE"
# [06:05] <zewt> stop making me feel bad for IE developers
# [06:05] <tw2113> just odd cause we're so used to damning them from not
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# [08:29] <zewt> ... anyone happen to know if the return value of IE9's dispatchEvent is broken (always returns true)? wondering if I'm just going crazy, heh
# [08:30] <zewt> or maybe this is an old beta
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# [08:47] <annevk> oh look, WHATWG Weekly day
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# [08:51] <zewt> annevk: trying to figure out actual browser behavior re: resetting stop propagation/canceled flag; much headaches ensue
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# [08:52] <zewt> can't seem to find a way to test whether the default handler was actually run, that works in all browsers
# [08:53] <zewt> the return value of dispatchEvent seems to always be true in IE9; and the return value of dispatchEvent and the value of getPreventedDefault() in FF don't always match
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# [08:54] <annevk> yeah
# [08:54] <annevk> I had the same results
# [08:54] <zewt> oh... checking for onhashchange after clicking a hash link (which I thought wasn't working in FF, but that's because FF isn't firing the default at all for synthesized clicks)
# [08:54] <annevk> well, I didn't test IE
# [08:54] <zewt> (that's what I was doing, then I got confused at FF's behavior)
# [08:54] <annevk> but I was confused too so I thought we could go with something saner :)
# [08:54] <zewt> well, it's a problem that Core and Events are mismatched on this
# [08:55] <annevk> I do think now that maybe propagation flags should be cleared after dispatching and canceled before
# [08:55] <zewt> right now, in all browsers (I think), you can event.stopPropagation and event.preventDefault an event before dispatching, to cause it to only fire the default or to only dispatch event handlers
# [08:56] <annevk> if you call stop propagation it's never dispatched
# [08:56] <zewt> but the default will still happen
# [08:57] <zewt> (if it's allowed for the non-trusted event, of course)
# [08:57] <annevk> I guess that is true...
# [08:57] <annevk> because dispatchEvent will still return and such
# [08:57] <annevk> but it's also really weird
# [08:57] <annevk> so maybe clearing before is saner
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# [08:57] <zewt> but is it worth being mismatched with all current browsers?
# [08:58] <annevk> maybe
# [08:59] <zewt> by clearing after (as Events does), it matches current browsers, allows the (admittedly obscure) case of cancelling/preventDefaulting before dispatch, and brings the two specs into agreement...
# [09:00] <zewt> FYI, in IE9 defaultPrevented *is* always false after dispatch completes (which is the result of clearing after)--but that may or may not be intentional (as I said, dispatchEvent's return value seems totally broken in that browser)
# [09:00] <annevk> ah yeah, that's the other thing I disliked about it
# [09:02] <annevk> zewt, so then we'd have to store the value of the canceled flag separately at some point so it can be cleared and then the method can be returned
# [09:02] <zewt> i think that'd only be for one step during dispatch
# [09:03] <zewt> eg. 9. var x = canceled flag; canceled flag = false; return x;
# [09:03] <annevk> just before returning you need to store it, then unset the flag, then return the value
# [09:03] <annevk> right
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# [09:03] <zewt> which isn't so bad since it's local to that step--hopefully wouldn't need to have a separately-defined flag bloating the flag list
# [09:04] <annevk> it's a bit unfortunate that it makes defaultPrevented useless after the event is dispatched
# [09:04] <annevk> there's not always a return value of dispatchEvent
# [09:04] <zewt> there should be, right?
# [09:04] <zewt> ignoring IE9's bug
# [09:04] <annevk> not if the event was dispatched by the UA
# [09:05] <zewt> hmm
# [09:05] <annevk> and you store it and analyze its properties later
# [09:05] <zewt> personally, I'd prefer to just never reset the flags ever
# [09:05] <zewt> and don't re-dispatch events; make new ones
# [09:05] <zewt> it seemed like that's what browsers (except IE) actually do--but I got sidetracked by other weirdness and need to re-test
# [09:06] <annevk> that would work too
# [09:06] <annevk> although maybe initEvent() should be able to revive an event
# [09:06] <annevk> (it doesn't currently reset the flags, I tested)
# [09:07] <zewt> i need to re-check FF in particular re: resetting flags
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# [09:07] <zewt> i was testing with preventDefault(), but FF apparently doesn't fire default actions on synthesized clicks at all, which may have been confusing me
# [09:07] <annevk> kk
# [09:07] <zewt> so i need to check with stopPropagation
# [09:07] <annevk> we should probably right down the various options and ask people what they think
# [09:07] <annevk> write*
# [09:08] <zewt> also I hate onhashchange to death for being async
# [09:08] <annevk> bah, twisted my thumb over two weeks ago with skiing and it still bloody hurts
# [09:08] <zewt> (makes it a pain to misappropriate it for event testing, heh)
# [09:09] <annevk> heh
# [09:09] <zewt> personally I try to avoid deliberately falling down mountains
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# [09:10] <zewt> afk, food hunt
# [09:10] <annevk> going down recklessly is a lot of fun; though I have to be careful because otherwise Lachy will reprimand me for being reckless :)
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# [09:29] <annevk> so should I mention developers.whatwg.org or should I leave that to a separate post?
# [09:29] <annevk> I guess i'll leave it to a separate post
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# [09:35] <zcorpan> annevk: so who should i bug about getting rights to edit html5-differences?
# [09:37] <annevk> mike probably
# [09:37] <annevk> or maybe the sysreq@w3.org
# [09:37] <annevk> they need your public key or some such and it should be all good
# [09:40] <hsivonen> we don't want innerHTML-created style sheets to block scripts, right?
# [09:45] <zewt> annevk: this is tricky enough that I wouldn't feel comfortable drawing any conclusions from it without review, but http://zewt.org/~glenn/test-event-flags
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# [09:46] <zewt> a little hesitant to even spend much time squinting at the results in different browsers, since any bugs in those tests could lead me squinting off on a red herring
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# [09:53] <annevk> zewt, looks cool
# [10:02] <annevk> I was gonna something to that...
# [10:03] <annevk> namely that I will hopefully look at it later today
# [10:03] <annevk> trying to focus on the blog entry first
# [10:03] <annevk> and then probably flush out from-origin so the draft is somewhat more complete
# [10:03] <annevk> I had wanted to do most of that yesterday, but I was dead tired instead :)
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# [10:04] <zewt> tired of looking at events tonight, so take your time :)
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# [10:09] * hsivonen just helped a person whose JS program failed due to Namespaces
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# [10:14] <micheil> hsivonen: namespaces?
# [10:14] <hsivonen> micheil: the beloved Namespaces in XML
# [10:15] <micheil> uhh.. okay, glad I don't need to deal with them
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# [10:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: What was the bug?
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# [10:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: svgscript.setAttribute("xlink:href", "foo.js");
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# [10:20] <annevk> that would work if the element in question had a namespaced attribute named xlink:href to begin with
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# [10:20] <hsivonen> annevk: really? that seems super-bad design in the DOM.
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# [10:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: why the note of surprise?
# [10:21] <jgraham> The DOM has plenty of bad design :)
# [10:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: I know the DOM has plenty of bad design, but this is worse than usual
# [10:24] <hsivonen> in other news, it seems that I have made a rather bad bug in Gecko's script loader
# [10:24] <hsivonen> I'm shocked that I haven't noticed it before
# [10:25] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/premature-script-execution/test-external.html
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# [10:28] <zcorpan> annevk: "If the context object does not have an Attr object whose local name is qualifiedName" ...
# [10:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: The bug being that it doesn't wait for the alert?
# [10:29] <annevk> zcorpan, hmm bug
# [10:29] <annevk> at least, I think it is
# [10:29] <zewt> is that the external script bug we were talking about the other day?
# [10:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: the bug being that the inserted script runs before the inserted script finishes
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# [10:30] <jgraham> One day I plan to clean up Hallvord's script scheduling tests and submit them to the testsuite
# [10:30] <annevk> i'd like to summarize public-html, but it's much more daunting
# [10:30] <annevk> :/
# [10:30] <zcorpan> annevk: seems gecko and webkit do as you say, but opera doesn't
# [10:31] <jgraham> It's quite a bit of work though as they are based on guessing desired behaviour rather than a spec
# [10:31] <jgraham> and so are wrong in some cases
# [10:31] <zcorpan> anyone have ie9 at hand? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/850
# [10:31] <zewt> hsivonen: i noticed that a while back, but I assumed it was known, and bugzilla is too hard to search ... sorry, heh
# [10:31] <hsivonen> whoa, whoa! the script run in the right order if I use console.log.
# [10:31] <hsivonen> not my bug!
# [10:32] <hsivonen> bug in the new tab-model alert stuff more likely
# [10:32] <hsivonen> whew.
# [10:32] <zewt> yeah, that's what I thought you meant
# [10:32] <hsivonen> I thought I had committed totally bogus code
# [10:32] <zewt> alert() doesn't fully pause the event loop; external scripts will load during it now
# [10:33] <hsivonen> zewt: I was wondering how tab modal alert was even possible with the required event loop semantics
# [10:33] <hsivonen> violating the required semantics explains it
# [10:34] <zewt> zcorpan: "IE has modified this page to help prevent cross-site scripting." and doesn't show anything
# [10:34] <zewt> hsivonen: Opera does it correctly, IIRC
# [10:34] <jgraham> Hmm, making tab modal alert possible seems important
# [10:34] <hsivonen> zewt: yes, it does
# [10:34] <zewt> the event loop is "paused" (no queued tasks run)
# [10:34] <hsivonen> zewt: Opera's architecture is radically different
# [10:34] <zewt> yeah, I'll take modal alerts no matter how many weird bugs it causes
# [10:35] <zcorpan> zewt: can you disable or work around the xss protection?
# [10:35] <zewt> zcorpan: it only has a "What's the risk?" link and an "X", no "no seriously, do it" button
# [10:36] <zcorpan> zewt: you can disable it somewhere in prefs. to work aruond it, open the link in another browser, copy the input, paste it into ie
# [10:36] <zewt> I just ran the code directly
# [10:36] <zewt> x<script>document.body.setAttributeNS('x','xlink:href','1');
# [10:36] <zewt> document.body.setAttribute('xlink:href','2');
# [10:36] <zewt> alert(document.body.getAttribute('xlink:href'));
# [10:36] <zewt> alerts 2 (as I'd expect)
# [10:37] <zewt> why would/should that do anything else? seems the obvious behavior
# [10:37] <zcorpan> thanks
# [10:37] <zcorpan> seems like stupid behavior to me :)
# [10:37] <zewt> ... how so?
# [10:37] <zcorpan> would be much clearer if setAttribute() always set a no-namespace attribute
# [10:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: BODY xlink:href="2"
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# [10:38] <zewt> i'm not even sure what that is, heh
# [10:38] <zewt> why should x.setAttribute(a, b); x.getAttribute(a); ever return anything other than b?
# [10:38] <zcorpan> what you get if you didn't have the first line in the script
# [10:38] <zewt> ah that namespace
# [10:39] <hsivonen> apparently if you have disabled the XSS filter for software.hixie.ch before installing IE9 RC, you need to disable it again after installing RC for it to take effect in RC
# [10:39] <zewt> i'm not familiar with those--to me "namespace" is just the "xlink:" part of the attribute name
# [10:39] <hsivonen> zewt: that's how bugs emerge
# [10:39] <zewt> not even sure what the point of those NS functions is; I've never seen them used so I've never felt the need to see what they're for
# [10:40] <hsivonen> zewt: the short version is that if you are doing SVG stuff without *NS, you are writing broken code
# [10:40] <jgraham> (or MathML)
# [10:40] <zewt> sounds like ugly legacy noise
# [10:40] <jgraham> Hah
# [10:40] <hsivonen> zewt: YES
# [10:41] <zewt> which seems to comprise a significant chunk of DOM, heh
# [10:41] <jgraham> It is the glorious future, don't ya know
# [10:41] <zewt> but I'm still not sure why x.setAttribute('a:b', 'c'); x.getAttribute('a:b') shouldn't return 'c'
# [10:41] <zcorpan> i guess we should suck it up and change opera, since we're the odd one out
# [10:41] <zcorpan> but it still sucks
# [10:42] <zewt> i've used attributes like that before, though I havn't had any reason to set them; mostly to let me put custom attributes in markup
# [10:42] <zcorpan> zewt: i wouldn't mind if getAttribute() also only worked for no-namespace attributes, but there may be web compat problems with changing that
# [10:43] <zewt> such as a whole lot of my code :)
# [10:43] <jgraham> It turns out that colons are the worst possible character for doing custom whatever
# [10:43] <jgraham> because they pull in all this architecture
# [10:43] <zewt> well, not a lot, but I've been using it more lately, and I've never even considered using *NS for it
# [10:43] <jgraham> that you don't want
# [10:43] <jgraham> hence -data-foo
# [10:43] <zcorpan> it'd still work if you used non-NS methods for both and never use NS methods
# [10:44] <zcorpan> and don't use <svg xlink:href>
# [10:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's happy fun that Facebook uses colons in HTML DOMs all over
# [10:44] <zewt> well, the question for my code isn't setAttribute, it's markup
# [10:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: with *NS methods!
# [10:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess facebook has a culture of thinking they are smart enough to play with fire
# [10:45] <zewt> well, if it works in every browser people test in, then people have no reason to think they're doing so
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# [10:46] <zewt> and if it works in every (or many) browsers, then the good old de facto standard process kicks in :|
# [10:46] <hsivonen> zewt: that logic doesn't work for Facebook, since they have at least four engine-specific code paths
# [10:46] <zewt> haha
# [10:46] <hsivonen> zewt: so there's no guarantee that whatever happens on one of them would work cross-browser
# [10:47] <zewt> i don't even use facebook, but from the times I've loaded the page, they're not doing anything fancy at all that would warrant that kind of complexity
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# [10:51] <jgraham> zewt: The implementation of facebook is more fancy than the content would suggest. Some of it seems a lit like unnecessary complexity, however
# [10:52] <zewt> geh
# [10:52] <jgraham> e.g. a great deal of content is loaded from scripts in order to reduce loading times (or something)
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# [10:52] <zewt> on that setAttribute case, innerHTML shows <body href="2">
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# [10:52] <zewt> if I comment out the setAttributeNS, i get <body xlink:href="2>
# [10:53] <zewt> in FF3
# [10:53] <zewt> ">
# [10:53] <zewt> do I even want to know? heh
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# [11:04] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-same-origin
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# [11:15] <annevk> when is ben usually online?
# [11:15] <annevk> I suppose I can write some announcement post tomorrow if he's too busy for it
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# [11:52] <annevk> in ABNF
# [11:52] <annevk> well, HTTP BNF
# [11:52] <annevk> there's #header-value
# [11:52] <annevk> what is #header-value-or-some-other-value
# [11:52] <annevk> #[a|b
# [11:52] <annevk> ]
# [11:52] <annevk> or just #a|b ?
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# [11:58] <kennyluck> annevk, in http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-same-origin , the first link in the second item (dom) links to the wrong page (bugzilla) it seems.
# [11:59] <annevk> not here...
# [12:00] <annevk> it seems there is some markup error though
# [12:00] * annevk goes to fix
# [12:01] <annevk> fixed
# [12:02] <kennyluck> thanks!
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# [12:38] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/from-origin/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#from-origin-response-header now has a processing model
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# [12:48] <hsivonen> annevk: the spec is completely obscure unless one remembers what prefix # means in this flavor of BNF
# [12:49] <hsivonen> annevk: can the header take a list of multiple origins?
# [12:49] <zewt> where's the definition of this BNF syntax? should it be referenced explicitly?
# [12:50] <hsivonen> annevk: it's very sad that CORS doesn't allow multiple origins to be specified
# [12:50] <hsivonen> zewt: that would help
# [12:51] <zewt> i assumed the #[] meant a comma-separated list or something like that
# [12:51] * hsivonen doesn't know what #[] means
# [12:52] <hsivonen> also, the words origin and same aren't quoted but if they are non-terminals, I don't see expansions, either
# [12:53] <hsivonen> "if none of" suggests that a list is allowed
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# [12:55] <annevk> hsivonen, first version of CORS is not meant for static resources
# [12:55] <annevk> hsivonen, that Gecko used it for fonts without prior discussion with WebApps, well, ...
# [12:55] <annevk> # is some HTTPism
# [12:56] <annevk> makes sense to me to define headers the same way HTTP does
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# [12:56] <annevk> you're right about same, I should make that an expansion and link origin to some definition in the origin concept draft
# [12:58] <zewt> "same" = empty list, don't terminate in step 1 and depend on step 5 to allow same-origin only?
# [12:59] <annevk> terminate means "these steps don't apply"
# [12:59] <annevk> that should prolly be clarified somewhat
# [12:59] <zewt> i know that
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# [12:59] <annevk> and "same" is a convenience keyword
# [12:59] <annevk> if you can specify an empty header that should probably be allowed too
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# [12:59] <zewt> i mean "From-Origin: same" means #1 won't terminate and step 7 will always terminate?
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# [13:00] <zewt> er, abort
# [13:00] <annevk> right
# [13:00] <annevk> however, before step 7 it will be terminated if it's same origin
# [13:00] <annevk> so that's all good
# [13:00] <zewt> i figured that was the idea
# [13:00] <zewt> having an empty header would be cleaner but yeah I don't remember if that's allowed, and it might be a bad idea anyway since nothing ever does that
# [13:01] <zewt> probably best for empty header to be equivalent to no header
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# [13:01] <annevk> actually, WebDAV does that I believe
# [13:02] <annevk> XHR also has a distinction between no header and empty string value
# [13:02] <zewt> for example, there's no way to specify an empty header with curl
# [13:02] <zewt> specifying an empty header removes it
# [13:03] <annevk> anyway, currently it's not allowed
# [13:03] <annevk> # means one or more
# [13:03] <annevk> iirc
# [13:03] <hsivonen> annevk: so is From-Origin: same, same conforming?
# [13:03] <zewt> should it be #[origin | "same"]?
# [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: it would be really nice to link the word "BNF" to whatever IETF flavor of BNF this is
# [13:04] <zewt> bnf-fu very rusty
# [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: also, linking the non-terminals to their expansions would be really nice
# [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen, yes and yes it would; guess I'll do it now
# [13:04] <annevk> zewt, no, then same would not be case-sensitive
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# [13:08] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xml-20001006#sec-notation a link for EBNF
# [13:08] <zewt> this relates not just to HTML but HTTP; should it reference HTTP for what "response header" means? not sure how explicit that's typically made
# [13:09] <annevk> maybe case-insensitive is okay
# [13:09] <zewt> that definition says "strings" are case-sensitive
# [13:09] <annevk> lets not confuse HTTP ABNF with EBNF
# [13:10] <karlcow> there is also ABNF http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4234
# [13:10] <karlcow> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5234
# [13:11] <karlcow> geez with erratas
# [13:12] <hsivonen> karlcow: XML BNF is readable. Unlike the IETF stuff.
# [13:12] <zewt> 15.7.1 Denial of Service Attacks on Proxies
# [13:12] <zewt> They exist. They are hard to defend against. Research continues.
# [13:12] <zewt> Beware.
# [13:12] <zewt> gotta love a spec that uses the single word "beware" as a sentence
# [13:13] <zewt> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#page-14
# [13:14] <zewt> ("page-14" as an anchor? really?)
# [13:14] <jgraham> ietf is kinda fucked up
# [13:14] <zewt> writing specs as if the expectation is that everyone's going to print them out ... that's pretty amusing even for 1999
# [13:15] <jgraham> They regard technologies that postdate the 60s with suspicion and even downright hostility
# [13:15] <zcorpan> "They exist. They are hard to defend against. Research continues. Beware." seems like a good section for other stuff as well, like "Security considerations"
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# [13:17] <zewt> can I be happy that we're in an age where we no longer feel the need to explicitly reference the ASCII spec from HTML
# [13:17] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/from-origin/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#from-origin-response-header refresh
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# [13:18] <jgraham> I thought we did reference the ASCII spec
# [13:18] <karlcow> zewt: for http I recommend to look in the direction of httpbis
# [13:19] <jgraham> They was a whole cycle of the Issue process around it, was there not?
# [13:19] <karlcow> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/
# [13:21] <zewt> annevk: perhaps explicitly say that these steps are to be performed as part of the "main step" of fetching
# [13:21] <zewt> assuming that's where it goes
# [13:22] <zewt> (implying that if F-O aborts the resource, cookies aren't updated, and so on)
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# [13:25] <zcorpan> annevk: RFC2119 ref is broken
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# [13:26] <jre> annevk, zevt: reusing the HTTP ABNF makes sense here.
# [13:26] <annevk> thanks zewt, done
# [13:27] <jre> the reference should go to http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2616.html#rfc.section.2.1
# [13:27] <jre> (not that URI, but RFC 2616, Section 2.1)
# [13:27] <zewt> httpbis ref is http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-12#page-7 but if it's the same may as well not use an in-progress reference
# [13:27] <jre> you'll also need to steal the definition of OWS from HTTPbis
# [13:27] <zewt> <zewt> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#page-14 <- that's the 2616 ref
# [13:28] <jre> http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-12.html#rfc.section.1.2.2
# [13:28] <annevk> I guess I'll just say that the ABNF is the same as the Web Origin Concept
# [13:28] <annevk> so I can avoid dealing with HTTP references
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# [13:28] <jre> it may make sense to steal the details from the new cookie spec
# [13:29] <jre> actually no: it uses the 5234 syntax
# [13:29] <annevk> it now just references ORIGIN
# [13:30] <annevk> which in turn hopefully references some correct spec, but it's no longer my problem :)
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# [13:30] <annevk> actually, this is not quite correct
# [13:30] <annevk> bah
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# [13:32] <zewt> annevk: the fetch algorithm has a specifically named "main step"; i think it makes sense to refer to it by name to be precise about where in the algorithm it goes
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# [13:32] <zewt> (of course, it won't be when multiple addon-specs are doing that, but heh)
# [13:32] <annevk> origin-list is space separated :/
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# [13:37] <annevk> fixed bnf again
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# [13:37] <annevk> zewt, yeah, this all needs to be integrated one day
# [13:38] <annevk> at some point someone might take everything network and write it all down :)
# [13:39] <MikeSmith> annevk: please take a look at http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/static.html and let me know if you see any problems
# [13:39] <MikeSmith> please compare to http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/Notifications.html
# [13:39] <MikeSmith> the main difference is where/how the Notification constructor is defined
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# [13:41] <annevk> MikeSmith, that is wrong
# [13:41] <MikeSmith> Berjon's current JS respec does not seem to provide any way to handle the constructor differently than normal methods
# [13:41] <MikeSmith> hmm
# [13:41] <MikeSmith> oK
# [13:41] <hendry> Philip`: hi there, can we chat about how reports are gathered with your test harness?
# [13:41] <annevk> MikeSmith, now it says there's a method Notification on the Notification object
# [13:41] <MikeSmith> annevk; so now I have to hack fricking respec more
# [13:42] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know
# [13:42] <annevk> MikeSmith, respec2 doesn't handle it either? sounds painful
# [13:42] <MikeSmith> I can't imagine this is the first spec using respec that has needed to document a constructtor
# [13:42] <annevk> MikeSmith, I'm fine with publishing as-is though, maybe with a note
# [13:43] <annevk> or maybe berjon knows a cure
# [13:43] <MikeSmith> nah, I can fix it today
# [13:43] <MikeSmith> maybe
# [13:43] <annevk> zewt, added main step
# [13:43] <annevk> zewt, hsivonen, thanks a lot
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# [14:48] <Philip`> hendry: Sure
# [14:48] <Philip`> hendry: (Which test harness?)
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# [15:05] <hendry> Philip`: w3c one, did you get my email btw?
# [15:06] <Philip`> hendry: I see the email now
# [15:07] <Philip`> I know nothing about the W3C test reporting system
# [15:07] <jgraham> hendry: What is the question?
# [15:07] <Philip`> I've heard that it's mostly manual so I haven't been inclined to have a look at it
# [15:09] <hendry> jgraham: just a general enquiry to how the actual reporting is done. e.g. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/tip/tests/submission
# [15:09] <hendry> Philip`: i.e. how automation is best done :)
# [15:10] <jgraham> hendry: Oh, like Philip` I haven't dared look at that too hard
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# [15:11] <jgraham> There is a javascript thing in the repo somewhere that opens the tests in an iframe and lets people submit the results and builds that XML or something
# [15:11] <hendry> jgraham: if you find it let me know
# [15:12] <hendry> jgraham, Philip` if there are reporting / automated examples I could see, I would be grateful
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# [15:12] <Philip`> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/harness/harness.htm
# [15:12] <Philip`> You click pass/fail buttons 819 times and then click "test results" and then post it to a mailing list, I think
# [15:12] <hendry> Philip`: ah ..
# [15:13] <jgraham> hendry: Oh, Philip` beat me to it
# [15:13] <jgraham> The whole thing is insane
# [15:13] <jgraham> the most useful thing would be if people would stop spamming me with test results :(
# [15:13] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/reportgenentry.html is my automated one but that's for a slightly obsolete version of the tests
# [15:13] <Philip`> and also you can't submit the results anywhere
# [15:13] <jgraham> But there must be something somewhere encouraging it
# [15:14] <jgraham> Also, it is quite trivial to build an automated harness for the javascript tests
# [15:14] <jgraham> Since it has an API specifically for that purpose
# [15:14] <zewt> click a button 819 times? make a game out of it and people will pay to run your tests for you
# [15:15] <hendry> jgraham: where is this API documented?
# [15:15] <jgraham> hendry: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/0be07106838c/tests/resources/testharness.js
# [15:15] <jgraham> See where it says "external API"
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# [15:15] <jgraham> zewt: Heh
# [15:16] <jgraham> We should totally do that
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# [15:16] <jgraham> Make people pay to buy a test autoclicker than can submit 5 results for them
# [15:16] <Philip`> Make an online game like The Typing of the Dead
# [15:17] <jgraham> I was totally thinking farmville
# [15:17] <Philip`> where instead of showing you a word you have to type in to kill zombies, it shows a test case in an iframe and you have to select pass/fail to kill zombies
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# [15:18] <Philip`> The end-of-level boss can be a series of test cases submitted by Microsoft where it's really hard to figure out whether it passed or failed
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# [15:18] <zewt> heh typing of the dead
# [15:18] <zewt> someone had me playing that years ago, except it was the japanese version on DC
# [15:18] <hendry> jgraham: don't quite understand that "external API" stuff, was expecting to see a func with XMLHttpRequest post
# [15:19] <Philip`> "Test passes if the text 'PASS' appears to the left and the text 'Your browser does not support media elements.' does not appear anywhere on this page."
# [15:19] <zewt> not being able to read any of it made the boss battles ... a challenge
# [15:19] <Philip`> That text will always appear on that page, as part of the instructions
# [15:20] <hendry> jgraham: so one implements result_callback to post results or something?
# [15:21] <hendry> jgraham: i need an example i think
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# [15:34] <Workshiva> Philip`: This test intentionally left failing
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# [15:49] <jgraham> Philip`: Hah
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# [15:51] <jgraham> hendry: If one loads the test in an iframe it will try to send the results to a function in the top-level browsing context called completion_callback
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# [15:51] <jgraham> It might have been neater to use postMessage…
# [15:51] <jgraham> In fact it might still be possible to change
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# [15:53] <annevk> zcorpan, need any information on generating the spec?
# [15:54] <annevk> I currently use (and change ED to WD somewhere and add -F date=2011-xx-xx when generating a copy for publication):
# [15:54] <annevk> curl -u w3c-user:password -F file=@Overview.src.html -F group=none -F output=html -F method=file http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/process.cgi -o Overview.html
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# [16:10] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks
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# [16:15] <zcorpan> where do i change ED to WD?
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# [16:20] <zcorpan> the current version seems to be WD
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# [16:26] <zcorpan> annevk: ^
# [16:29] <annevk> I guess you can keep it that way
# [16:29] <zcorpan> ok
# [16:30] <annevk> but if someone wants you to change it back, change WD to ED in the "This Version:" URL in http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/Overview.src.html
# [16:30] <annevk> everything else should adjust automatically
# [16:31] <zcorpan> ok
# [16:31] <annevk> if something breaks with the generator you probably need to contact Bert Bos or switch to Anolis
# [16:31] <annevk> publication related questions are probably best directed to Mike Smith
# [16:31] <zcorpan> i added myself as editor to see if it'd work
# [16:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can help with pub stuff
# [16:32] <zcorpan> cool
# [16:33] <zcorpan> i guess i'm all set then
# [16:34] <zcorpan> annevk: one more, what do you check when you update it? just the svn log?
# [16:34] <annevk> yes
# [16:34] <zcorpan> ok
# [16:34] <annevk> I keep track of SVN numbers in the comments
# [16:34] <zewt> how did this thread about microphone devices suddenly turn towards sh? heh
# [16:34] <zewt> that may be the most nonsensical suggestion I've seen on the list yet
# [16:35] <annevk> if you look at the HTML5 changelogs section it should be pretty simple to figure out
# [16:35] <annevk> that is, if you look at the source
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# [16:35] <annevk> feel free to make more ambitious changes though :)
# [16:35] <annevk> such as defining the DOM HTML delta or some such
# [16:35] <annevk> ;)
# [16:36] <zcorpan> heh, don't worry, i won't :)
# [16:37] <zcorpan> ok seeya
# [16:38] <annevk> :)
# [16:38] <zcorpan> btw i won't be in linköping this week
# [16:38] <zcorpan> so i guess i won't seeya
# [16:38] <zcorpan> anyway
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# [16:39] <annevk> aaah
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# [16:41] <annevk> Ms2ger, when you read this, jgraham has been given access to dom-core to commit some tests
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# [16:45] <annevk> zcorpan, you forgot "editor" under "Acknowledgments" :)
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# [17:16] <Rik`> "Error: Text run is not in Unicode Normalization Form C."
# [17:16] <Rik`> what the hell does that mean?
# [17:17] <jgraham> Dunno why it's an error
# [17:17] <jgraham> But apart from that it means what it says, mostly
# [17:17] <Workshiva> Because unicode is bad enough with NFC
# [17:18] <jgraham> Rik`: It means that certain sequences of characters and combining characters are in docomposed form rather than single-codepoint form
# [17:18] <jgraham> e.g. if you have an e character followed by an acute combining mark
# [17:18] <Workshiva> If you have e.g. A followed by ring-above-symbol-whatnot instead of Å
# [17:18] <jgraham> rather than an e-acute character
# [17:19] <Rik`> jgraham: oh right, thanks !
# [17:19] <jgraham> Rik`: Note that NFC doesn't mean that there aren't *any* combining chracters
# [17:19] <jgraham> It just means that there aren't the ones in NFC
# [17:19] <jgraham> (I believe that NFD is fully decomposed, however)
# [17:20] <jgraham> http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/
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# [17:21] <jgraham> Also http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/07/06/nfc seems quite relevant to your situation
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# [18:06] <Rik`> still experiencing funny error messages
# [18:06] <Rik`> Error: Bad value UserVoice.Popin.show(uservoiceOptions); return false; for attribute onclick on element a: invalid return
# [18:06] <Rik`> why is can't it "return false" ?
# [18:06] <zewt> i don't even know what language that is, heh
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# [18:07] <zewt> of course I didn't sleep last night and I'm in zombie mode, but
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# [18:40] <karlcow> http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2011/02/28/webgl-and-hardware-acceleration-2
# [18:40] <Rik`> hsivonen: do you have any idea ?
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# [18:46] <annevk> fuck iTunes
# [18:46] <annevk> bought Radiohead album in WAV because why not
# [18:46] <annevk> drag into iTunes
# [18:46] <annevk> iTunes does not play ball
# [18:47] <annevk> after modifying song names and album information appropriately myself (because iTunes does not play ball) it does not allow me to change the frigging artwork
# [18:47] <annevk> does this mean I now have to buy the MP3 version to get this to work?
# [18:52] <matjas> try using iTunes to convert it to MP3
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# [18:59] <hsivonen> Rik`: any idea about return false; in onclick? no, no idea
# [18:59] <zewt> WAV is hard stuff
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# [19:03] <matjas> TabAtkins: http://asi.qfox.nl/ is pretty cool
# [19:03] <zewt> annevk: the terms "type" and "name" with events are used of ambiguously in places
# [19:04] <Rik`> so validator.nu says there is an error but validator.w3.org says it's ok
# [19:04] <zewt> DOM Core refers to the event interface as the "type" and the event name as the "name", but the parameter to init*Event functions is "type" (refering to the name)
# [19:05] <zewt> and specs seem inconsistent (in eventsource within "dispatch the event", step 3 uses "name" and step 4 uses "type" to--I think--refer to the same thing)
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# [19:11] <zewt> might be more consistent for DOM Core to always say "event that uses the Event interface" and never refer to that as "type" or "name"
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# [19:11] <TabAtkins> Yus! I missed 6 ASIs and wasted 8 unnecessary. Still pretty good!
# [19:11] <zewt> (I think "type" is sort of entrenched, due to the prototypes of all of the initEvent methods)
# [19:12] <TabAtkins> Most of those wasted ones were me putting them after function declarations, which the rules didn't call out explicitly.
# [19:12] <TabAtkins> (It's subsumed in the "hidden rules" it mentions, I guess.)
# [19:13] <karlcow> hmmmm checking http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/ too
# [19:15] <zewt> i think DOM Events always uses "type" to refer to the event name, not "name"
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# [19:16] <zewt> so yeah I'd also change the term "name" to "type", I think
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# [20:09] <zewt> aren't custom events a bit of a namespace nightmare? as soon as people start using events with arbitrary names, adding new events to anything ever will cause backwards-compat problems
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# [20:28] <TabAtkins> Argh, how can someone in the leadership of the accessibility group write such inaccessible emails?
# [20:30] <TabAtkins> I can't figure out who is saying what in the quoted part of this top-posted email, and I'm a fully-sighted user.
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# [21:01] <hober> TabAtkins: srsly
# [21:03] <Hixie> kennyluck: please don't cross-post messages to the whatwg list, it causes thread fragmentation when people not on the list reply to the thread
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# [21:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "There is an option to ignore the “legacy doctype” and “xml:lang” errors that Validator.nu reports for documents using an XHTML doctype" http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201102/html5_validator_extension_updates/
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# [22:07] <kennyluck> Hixie: hmm... OK, but I was replying a mail that was cross-posted. What am I supposed to do?
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# [22:12] <Hixie> kennyluck: figure out the best list to reply to, i guess :-)
# [22:12] <Hixie> kennyluck: are you on whatwg?
# [22:12] <kennyluck> Hixie: Yeah.
# [22:12] <Hixie> k
# [22:12] <zewt> only replying to one list is causing thread fragmentation, not replying to all :P
# [22:13] <Hixie> yeah but it just encourages others to do the same :-)
# [22:14] <zewt> crossposting between relevant lists is pretty ordinary--works fine as long as lists aren't subscriber-post-only (unfortunately, some lists are)
# [22:14] <karlushi> You can minimize the damage of cross-posting by stopping the thread and replying to one list and then send an email to the other list pointing to the discussion. Reply-To: might help too. Though nothing perfect, beauty of humans.
# [22:14] <zewt> (like that annoying PRNG thread that people expected everyone to subscribe to es-discuss for)
# [22:14] <Hixie> zewt: yeah. whatwg is, for spam control reasons
# [22:15] <zewt> speaking of spam control, maybe the spec feedback form should throw away comments that begin with "Please enter your feedback" :)
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# [22:17] <kennyluck> Hmm... the email address I use everyday isn't the email address I use to subscribe to the whatwg list. I guess that's the reason why my letter doesn't show up on the whatwg list.
# [22:18] <Hixie> zewt: is it common?
# [22:19] <zewt> probably not common enough to actually spend time on it, though if I was the one who had to keep closing them I might get annoyed enough to, heh
# [22:19] <Hixie> if it's happened more than twice i'm happy to add code for it, it'll take a second or two
# [22:19] <Hixie> paste the urls to the cases where it happens and i'll deal with it
# [22:20] <zewt> eg. http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12206
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# [22:21] <zewt> (i'm surprised those don't happen more often than they do)
# [22:21] <Hixie> wow i wonder how _that_ happens
# [22:22] <AryehGregor> Why is it so hard to traverse the DOM in tree order?
# [22:22] <Hixie> six times so far
# [22:22] <Hixie> crazy
# [22:22] <AryehGregor> From JavaScript, I mean.
# [22:22] * Hixie goes to block that case
# [22:22] <AryehGregor> Would Node.nextNode be too much to ask?
# [22:22] <zewt> is it hard?
# [22:22] <Hixie> AryehGregor: Node.nextSibling?
# [22:22] <AryehGregor> Hixie, what if it's the last child?
# [22:22] <Hixie> AryehGregor: oh you mean including the next node
# [22:22] <AryehGregor> Or what if it has a child?
# [22:22] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: walk parentNode?
# [22:22] <Hixie> AryehGregor: use a node iterator
# [22:23] <AryehGregor> Hmm, let me look into that.
# [22:23] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: NodeIterator?
# [22:23] <AryehGregor> Is that available cross-browser these days?
# [22:24] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Non-IE, at least. It's in Acid3. I think IE9 supports it.
# [22:24] <AryehGregor> This seems way more complicated than I want.
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# [22:24] * AryehGregor just does it manually
# [22:24] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: If you want to do it for all documents, have fun with IE's non-tree documents.
# [22:25] <zewt> write a nextNode(node) function, add it to the bag of helpers :)
# [22:25] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's what I did.
# [22:25] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, well, if IE does that, it will just fail my tests, so too bad on it.
# [22:25] <Hixie> make sure it fails and doesn't lock u
# [22:25] <Hixie> p
# [22:27] <jgraham> Locking up browsers is fun!
# [22:27] <jgraham> But probably shouldn't be encouraged...
# [22:28] <zewt> Hixie: maybe he's asking you to enter your feedback (to yourself)
# [22:28] <Hixie> heh
# [22:28] <zewt> that would be rather literal feedback
# [22:29] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Indeed, what Hixie said is the risk here. (Just following the circle.)
# [22:30] <AryehGregor> Well, tests that time out fail automatically, right?
# [22:30] <AryehGregor> Anyway, does IE9 in standards mode allow non-tree documents?
# [22:30] <AryehGregor> Not like we're testing compatibility modes.
# [22:30] * AryehGregor will worry about it when he gets to it
# [22:30] <zewt> better to detect an infinite loop and fail quickly instead of waiting for a timeout and making the test set take forever
# [22:30] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I think not.
# [22:31] <Hixie> we'll have to test compatibility modes in due course
# [22:31] <AryehGregor> I doubt it.
# [22:31] <jgraham> Boy is that going to be a fun discussion
# [22:31] <AryehGregor> We'll probably never test compatibility modes.
# [22:31] <AryehGregor> IE's, anyway.
# [22:31] <jgraham> We should test doctype/no doctype at least
# [22:31] <AryehGregor> Nobody has any real reason to want to emulate them.
# [22:31] <AryehGregor> Well, maybe someday.
# [22:32] <Hixie> the spec doesn't have compatibility modes, it just has one set of rules that include some differences based on the doctype
# [22:32] <Hixie> so...
# [22:32] <zewt> it's annoying that apparently only IE9 changes modes significantly with no doctype
# [22:32] <gsnedders> Yeah, we should test standards/quirks.
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# [22:32] <gsnedders> But that's going to be painful enough.
# [22:33] <jgraham> I'm not sure that intentionally putting IE in a compat mode to show that it doesn't follow standards in that mode really helps anyone
# [22:33] <Hixie> i don't really care about IE
# [22:33] <Hixie> it's not an IE issue
# [22:33] <jgraham> But showing that it fails to follow ordinary quirks mode is fine
# [22:33] <zewt> (every time I make a quick test HTML and I'm lazy and don't put a doctype, everything works fine in every browser ... except IE9, which falls to quirksmode)
# [22:33] <Hixie> since they refuse to follow the spec for this anyway
# [22:33] <Hixie> we still need to make sure the spec is useful for the browsers who _do_ want to follow it
# [22:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: Then what is gained by testing it?
# [22:34] <Hixie> IE isn't the only browser?
# [22:34] <jgraham> Right, but it is reasonable to assume that <meta content=what-ever-the-magic-is> won't dpo anything magic in non-IE browsers
# [22:34] <Hixie> zewt: i tried to add somethin to prevent the case you mentioned earlier
# [22:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: But how likely are they to end up on the wrong code-path because of x-ua-compatible?
# [22:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: cost/benefit doesn't seem to make it seem worthwhile, because the meta does nothing.
# [22:35] <Hixie> jgraham: oh i wasn't suggesting having tests that check the IE thing
# [22:35] <zewt> i don't expect other browsers to deliberately break when there's no doctype, but it'd be nice if there was *some* indication, so the problem doesn't lurk
# [22:35] <Hixie> didn't mean to imply anything about X-UA-Compatible
# [22:35] <jgraham> Hixie: It sounded like you were :)
# [22:35] <gsnedders> Indeed. :)
# [22:35] <Hixie> what did i say that sounded like that?
# [22:35] * Hixie is confoosed
# [22:35] <jgraham> 15:26 < Hixie> we'll have to test compatibility modes in due course
# [22:35] <gsnedders> We should test everything in at least quirks/non-quirks. Dunno if we sohuld test everything in limit-quirked.
# [22:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: "compatibility modes" is something I only ever hear wrt IE's modes
# [22:36] <jgraham> "compatibility modes" in context sounds like the IEism
# [22:36] <Hixie> jgraham: i meant the quirks mode thing, sorry
# [22:36] <jgraham> not the spec thing
# [22:36] <jgraham> Hixie: np
# [22:36] * jgraham is less ambitious than gsnedders
# [22:37] <Hixie> back in a bit, unch
# [22:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think we want to check for everything that behaviour isn't changed by being in quirks
# [22:37] * jgraham would settle for tests that just cover the areas where they should be the same
# [22:37] <gsnedders> To avoid browsers changing too much in quirks
# [22:37] <jgraham> er
# [22:37] <jgraham> s/same/different/
# [22:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: We can do that ofc
# [22:37] <jgraham> But it seems like a lot of effort for not much gain
# [22:38] <jgraham> (like: it won't just be a case of adding or removing <!doctype html> from the top of each html file)
# [22:38] <gsnedders> I know.
# [22:39] <gsnedders> It should be for a lot, though.
# [22:39] <gsnedders> Very little changes per spec for quirks mode.
# [22:39] <gsnedders> CSS would be a huge amount of work, but HTML5 wouldn't be.
# [22:39] <jgraham> Lots of tests will do thjings like load documents in iframes
# [22:39] <jgraham> Do you need to change the document in the iframe
# [22:39] <jgraham> *So
# [22:40] <jgraham> Which could be a data: uri
# [22:40] <jgraham> So there is no automated approach that will be reliable
# [22:40] <jgraham> So it will mean going through all submissions by hand
# [22:40] <jgraham> Which is possible ofc
# [22:41] <jgraham> It's not like it will be an impossible amount of work
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> Hixie: While you're changing the comment verifier code, could you reject any feedback starting with a doctype too? For reasons unknown to me a lot of the spam is people just putting source-code for pages into the comment box, and I haven't seen a single bug legitimately start with a doctype.
# [22:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: I would much rather do that, FWIW.
# [22:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: Than having separate tests.
# [22:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do what?
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> Hixie: (You could probably get away with just rejecting anything starting with "<", possibly preceded by whitespace.)
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# [22:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: Having the same testsuite for both, pretty much.
# [22:42] <jgraham> TabAtkins: <html> might be a better be
# [22:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: If you can convince someone to pay for it, sure
# [22:42] <jgraham> *bet
# [22:42] <jgraham> At the moment we don't even have an automated harness
# [22:42] <TabAtkins> jgraham: That wouldn't work - a good chunk of the relevant spam starts witha doctype, not <html>.
# [22:42] <jgraham> So some proverb involving beggars and choosers comes to mind
# [22:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: But an automated harness is needed by no browser vendor, so…
# [22:43] <zewt> relevant spam - an uncommon sequence of words
# [22:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: Whereas more tests benefit browser vendors.
# [22:43] <TabAtkins> zewt: Meaning "the spam under discussion", of coruse.
# [22:43] <zewt> i know, heh
# [22:43] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I think I meant <!DOCTYPE | <html>
# [22:43] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Oh, okay. Yeah, I suspect that would catch most of them. Though I don't think I've ever seen a legitimate bug starting with <, either.
# [22:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: Doubling the number of tests just to test the same codepath twice in most cases doesn't sound that appealing to vendors
# [22:44] <TabAtkins> Best, of course, would be setting up an approval queue that a few of us can hit and accept/reject things quickly and easily before hitting the bugzilla.
# [22:45] <jgraham> It makes test runs take twice as long, doubles the number of regressions to investigate per bug, and takes time to implement
# [22:45] * gsnedders doesn't feel like debating it now
# [22:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: Clearly it is an axis along which browser behaviour can vary. But one presumes that in a sane browser the mode doesn't propogate everywhere
# [22:46] <jgraham> So it doesn't seem more valuable then, say, making sure all tests pass if there is at least one script in the DOM
# [22:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: We need some tests for things that quirks mode might obviously change, at the very least. And things it does change in any browsers in the past few years.
# [22:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: Agreed entirely
# [22:47] <gsnedders> How far we go is a question we'll need to discuss, though
# [22:47] <AryehGregor> Okay, testing deleteContents() is kind of annoying.
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# [22:47] <AryehGregor> Because it's a real pain to reset between tests . . .
# [22:47] <AryehGregor> Especially since cloneNode() doesn't work on Documents for some obnoxious reason.
# [22:47] <zewt> this is bugging me--aren't custom event names (with no requirement of any sane namespacing) going to cause backwards-compat issues in the future, because people will be using every conceivable verb as an event name?
# [22:47] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Can you use try/catch/finally?
# [22:48] <gsnedders> zewt: No moreso than creating new HTML elements.
# [22:48] <AryehGregor> jgraham, how does that help when it successfully deletes a chunk of the document? I have to restore the document to its previous state somehow.
# [22:48] <jgraham> try {/*do the test*/} catch(e) {throw e} finally {/*reset*/}
# [22:48] <zewt> people aren't exactly encouraged to use arbitrary strings as HTML elements
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# [22:48] <zewt> (rather, they're strongly discouraged from it)
# [22:48] <AryehGregor> That's not the issue, the issue is I have to actually reset the document.
# [22:48] <hober> name collisions just aren't that big of a deal in practice
# [22:48] <gsnedders> zewt: Go read the IE blog :P
# [22:49] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Well yes, I am somewhat assuming you have a way to create the initial state
# [22:49] <jgraham> I recommend recreating all state from scratch between tests
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# [22:49] <zewt> also, one set of horrible backwards-compatibility black holes doesn't justify another :P
# [22:49] <AryehGregor> That's what I'll have to do here, yes.
# [22:49] <AryehGregor> For things that don't mutate the DOM, it's not really necessary.
# [22:49] <jgraham> Right
# [22:50] <jgraham> But in general it is good if errors from one test don't propogate into others
# [22:50] <zewt> it's not a problem if people use event names with any sensible namespacing scheme, but there's no convention in place or anything
# [22:50] <jgraham> (for some reason, I seem to recall that javascript libraries love making tests like that)
# [22:50] <AryehGregor> I generally adopt the philosophy that if there are test failures, I'll look into them then.
# [22:50] * AryehGregor realizes he can just use innerHTML to reset, nice
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# [22:52] <AryehGregor> (assuming my DOM is nice enough that it will round-trip, but if not, oh well)
# [22:52] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Bear in mind that you are (hopefully) not the only consumer of your tests
# [22:52] <AryehGregor> I'm testing all the consumers of my tests.
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# [22:52] <hober> zewt: if you don't want your names to collide, pick sufficiently interesting names.
# [22:53] <zewt> but web specs generally don't make changes under the notion of "it's okay to break web pages if the developer was incompetent"
# [22:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Right, but the ultimate consumer is some developer who gets a regression report telling them that a whole bunch of contentEditable tests failed with the changes they made
# [22:55] <AryehGregor> I'm aware of that.
# [22:58] <AryehGregor> Ugh, why can't Documents be cloned?
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# [23:01] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Because cloning is an abomination.
# [23:01] <AryehGregor> Why?
# [23:01] <TabAtkins> I should have added "...unto God."
# [23:02] <AryehGregor> Why?
# [23:02] <TabAtkins> I dunno, go ask the Bible.
# [23:02] <TabAtkins> I didn't make the rules here.
# [23:03] <AryehGregor> . . .
# [23:05] <AryehGregor> You know, I just realized that restoring the document by overwriting the contents of the log isn't really that useful for testing purposes.
# [23:05] <AryehGregor> I think I'm going to use an iframe.
# [23:05] <AryehGregor> That seems a lot saner.
# [23:05] * AryehGregor now has to figure out how iframes work, exactly, but that shouldn't be too hard
# [23:06] <jgraham> As long as you remember that the load is async, all is good
# [23:08] <jgraham> (which is pretty straightforward)
# [23:12] <Hixie> TabAtkins: sure
# [23:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: on it
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# [23:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Either my suggestion (reject if it starts with "<") or jgraham's (reject if it starts with "<!doctype" or "<html") would work.
# [23:18] <AryehGregor> Reject if it starts with "<" sounds too broad.
# [23:18] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I don't recall ever seeing a legitimate bug that started with "<".
# [23:19] <Hixie> i rejected with a <, it'll only affect ms2ger
# [23:19] <TabAtkins> Haha.
# [23:19] <TabAtkins> I suppose starting a bug with a chat transcript may cause a problem.
# [23:19] <Hixie> people should give context anyway
# [23:20] <Hixie> i hate reading these bugs that just start without context so i've no idea wtf y'all are talking about until i'm half-way through
# [23:20] <Hixie> then i have to reread it with context :-P
# [23:20] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, http://bit.ly/eAdCP7
# [23:20] <Hixie> i've also updated the bug report form so it logs the user agent, hopefully we'll be able to see if there's any patterns there
# [23:20] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That reminds me, I have a five-page paper expounding on the changes you should make to HTML.
# [23:21] <Hixie> cool, mail it in
# [23:21] <AryehGregor> E.g.: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7746
# [23:21] <Hixie> i'll stick it on top of the other 1600 pages :-P
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# [23:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: 118 decision just posted
# [23:21] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I was, um, joking about rambling context-less bugs. ^_^
# [23:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: will 3 weeks extra time to draft a 119 counter-proposal be sufficient?
# [23:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: :-P
# [23:22] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Okay, point taken. Shrug. They can start their bug with something else, or file it via bugzilla.
# [23:22] <Hixie> othermaciej: one sec
# [23:22] <AryehGregor> Is there a spec for how encoding names are supposed to be processed? (Apropos: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2011/02/28/script-error-c00ce56e-means-you-have-specified-an-invalid-charset-utf8-is-not-utf-8.aspx)
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# [23:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: doesn't that decision supercede issue 119 altogether?
# [23:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: (awesome decision, btw)
# [23:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: (didn't expect that to go that way at all)
# [23:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: I have no idea, I don't remember what 119 is about
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# [23:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: did the relations with special meaning when repeated all get dropped?
# [23:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes
# [23:24] <othermaciej> it's just about "up"?
# [23:25] <othermaciej> ok
# [23:25] <Hixie> othermaciej: 118 drops index, up, first, and last. 119 is about up.
# [23:25] <Hixie> othermaciej: allow me to make this easier on you. I retract any intent to object to 119. :-)
# [23:26] <othermaciej> then I guess I should just post a call for consensus to close 119 by amicable resolution
# [23:29] <Hixie> sounds good
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# Session Close: Tue Mar 01 00:00:00 2011

The end :)