/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-28 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  93. # [06:04] <zewt> bleh
  94. # [06:04] <zewt> is it bad that IE has gone from "damn you for not following the spec, IE" to "damn you for following the spec, IE"
  95. # [06:05] <zewt> stop making me feel bad for IE developers
  96. # [06:05] <tw2113> just odd cause we're so used to damning them from not
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  142. # [08:29] <zewt> ... anyone happen to know if the return value of IE9's dispatchEvent is broken (always returns true)? wondering if I'm just going crazy, heh
  143. # [08:30] <zewt> or maybe this is an old beta
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  150. # [08:47] <annevk> oh look, WHATWG Weekly day
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  152. # [08:51] <zewt> annevk: trying to figure out actual browser behavior re: resetting stop propagation/canceled flag; much headaches ensue
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  154. # [08:52] <zewt> can't seem to find a way to test whether the default handler was actually run, that works in all browsers
  155. # [08:53] <zewt> the return value of dispatchEvent seems to always be true in IE9; and the return value of dispatchEvent and the value of getPreventedDefault() in FF don't always match
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  157. # [08:54] <annevk> yeah
  158. # [08:54] <annevk> I had the same results
  159. # [08:54] <zewt> oh... checking for onhashchange after clicking a hash link (which I thought wasn't working in FF, but that's because FF isn't firing the default at all for synthesized clicks)
  160. # [08:54] <annevk> well, I didn't test IE
  161. # [08:54] <zewt> (that's what I was doing, then I got confused at FF's behavior)
  162. # [08:54] <annevk> but I was confused too so I thought we could go with something saner :)
  163. # [08:54] <zewt> well, it's a problem that Core and Events are mismatched on this
  164. # [08:55] <annevk> I do think now that maybe propagation flags should be cleared after dispatching and canceled before
  165. # [08:55] <zewt> right now, in all browsers (I think), you can event.stopPropagation and event.preventDefault an event before dispatching, to cause it to only fire the default or to only dispatch event handlers
  166. # [08:56] <annevk> if you call stop propagation it's never dispatched
  167. # [08:56] <zewt> but the default will still happen
  168. # [08:57] <zewt> (if it's allowed for the non-trusted event, of course)
  169. # [08:57] <annevk> I guess that is true...
  170. # [08:57] <annevk> because dispatchEvent will still return and such
  171. # [08:57] <annevk> but it's also really weird
  172. # [08:57] <annevk> so maybe clearing before is saner
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  174. # [08:57] <zewt> but is it worth being mismatched with all current browsers?
  175. # [08:58] <annevk> maybe
  176. # [08:59] <zewt> by clearing after (as Events does), it matches current browsers, allows the (admittedly obscure) case of cancelling/preventDefaulting before dispatch, and brings the two specs into agreement...
  177. # [09:00] <zewt> FYI, in IE9 defaultPrevented *is* always false after dispatch completes (which is the result of clearing after)--but that may or may not be intentional (as I said, dispatchEvent's return value seems totally broken in that browser)
  178. # [09:00] <annevk> ah yeah, that's the other thing I disliked about it
  179. # [09:02] <annevk> zewt, so then we'd have to store the value of the canceled flag separately at some point so it can be cleared and then the method can be returned
  180. # [09:02] <zewt> i think that'd only be for one step during dispatch
  181. # [09:03] <zewt> eg. 9. var x = canceled flag; canceled flag = false; return x;
  182. # [09:03] <annevk> just before returning you need to store it, then unset the flag, then return the value
  183. # [09:03] <annevk> right
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  185. # [09:03] <zewt> which isn't so bad since it's local to that step--hopefully wouldn't need to have a separately-defined flag bloating the flag list
  186. # [09:04] <annevk> it's a bit unfortunate that it makes defaultPrevented useless after the event is dispatched
  187. # [09:04] <annevk> there's not always a return value of dispatchEvent
  188. # [09:04] <zewt> there should be, right?
  189. # [09:04] <zewt> ignoring IE9's bug
  190. # [09:04] <annevk> not if the event was dispatched by the UA
  191. # [09:05] <zewt> hmm
  192. # [09:05] <annevk> and you store it and analyze its properties later
  193. # [09:05] <zewt> personally, I'd prefer to just never reset the flags ever
  194. # [09:05] <zewt> and don't re-dispatch events; make new ones
  195. # [09:05] <zewt> it seemed like that's what browsers (except IE) actually do--but I got sidetracked by other weirdness and need to re-test
  196. # [09:06] <annevk> that would work too
  197. # [09:06] <annevk> although maybe initEvent() should be able to revive an event
  198. # [09:06] <annevk> (it doesn't currently reset the flags, I tested)
  199. # [09:07] <zewt> i need to re-check FF in particular re: resetting flags
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  201. # [09:07] <zewt> i was testing with preventDefault(), but FF apparently doesn't fire default actions on synthesized clicks at all, which may have been confusing me
  202. # [09:07] <annevk> kk
  203. # [09:07] <zewt> so i need to check with stopPropagation
  204. # [09:07] <annevk> we should probably right down the various options and ask people what they think
  205. # [09:07] <annevk> write*
  206. # [09:08] <zewt> also I hate onhashchange to death for being async
  207. # [09:08] <annevk> bah, twisted my thumb over two weeks ago with skiing and it still bloody hurts
  208. # [09:08] <zewt> (makes it a pain to misappropriate it for event testing, heh)
  209. # [09:09] <annevk> heh
  210. # [09:09] <zewt> personally I try to avoid deliberately falling down mountains
  211. # [09:09] * Joins: kal-EL_ (~jor-EL@host99-65-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  212. # [09:10] <zewt> afk, food hunt
  213. # [09:10] <annevk> going down recklessly is a lot of fun; though I have to be careful because otherwise Lachy will reprimand me for being reckless :)
  214. # [09:11] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  220. # [09:29] <annevk> so should I mention developers.whatwg.org or should I leave that to a separate post?
  221. # [09:29] <annevk> I guess i'll leave it to a separate post
  222. # [09:34] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  223. # [09:35] <zcorpan> annevk: so who should i bug about getting rights to edit html5-differences?
  224. # [09:37] <annevk> mike probably
  225. # [09:37] <annevk> or maybe the sysreq@w3.org
  226. # [09:37] <annevk> they need your public key or some such and it should be all good
  227. # [09:40] <hsivonen> we don't want innerHTML-created style sheets to block scripts, right?
  228. # [09:45] <zewt> annevk: this is tricky enough that I wouldn't feel comfortable drawing any conclusions from it without review, but http://zewt.org/~glenn/test-event-flags
  229. # [09:45] * Quits: abarth (~abarth@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  230. # [09:46] <zewt> a little hesitant to even spend much time squinting at the results in different browsers, since any bugs in those tests could lead me squinting off on a red herring
  231. # [09:52] * Joins: abarth (~abarth@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  232. # [09:53] <annevk> zewt, looks cool
  233. # [10:02] <annevk> I was gonna something to that...
  234. # [10:03] <annevk> namely that I will hopefully look at it later today
  235. # [10:03] <annevk> trying to focus on the blog entry first
  236. # [10:03] <annevk> and then probably flush out from-origin so the draft is somewhat more complete
  237. # [10:03] <annevk> I had wanted to do most of that yesterday, but I was dead tired instead :)
  238. # [10:04] * Joins: msucan (~robod@89.123.152.6)
  239. # [10:04] <zewt> tired of looking at events tonight, so take your time :)
  240. # [10:05] * Quits: SteveGL (~dev@174-21-221-107.tukw.qwest.net) (Quit: SteveGL)
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  243. # [10:09] * hsivonen just helped a person whose JS program failed due to Namespaces
  244. # [10:09] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  245. # [10:14] <micheil> hsivonen: namespaces?
  246. # [10:14] <hsivonen> micheil: the beloved Namespaces in XML
  247. # [10:15] <micheil> uhh.. okay, glad I don't need to deal with them
  248. # [10:16] * Joins: kor_ (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  249. # [10:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: What was the bug?
  250. # [10:18] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  251. # [10:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: svgscript.setAttribute("xlink:href", "foo.js");
  252. # [10:19] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  253. # [10:20] <annevk> that would work if the element in question had a namespaced attribute named xlink:href to begin with
  254. # [10:20] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  255. # [10:20] <hsivonen> annevk: really? that seems super-bad design in the DOM.
  256. # [10:21] * Joins: alrra (592f527d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.47.82.125)
  257. # [10:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: why the note of surprise?
  258. # [10:21] <jgraham> The DOM has plenty of bad design :)
  259. # [10:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: I know the DOM has plenty of bad design, but this is worse than usual
  260. # [10:24] <hsivonen> in other news, it seems that I have made a rather bad bug in Gecko's script loader
  261. # [10:24] <hsivonen> I'm shocked that I haven't noticed it before
  262. # [10:25] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/premature-script-execution/test-external.html
  263. # [10:25] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@mail.itoffshorenepal.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  264. # [10:28] <zcorpan> annevk: "If the context object does not have an Attr object whose local name is qualifiedName" ...
  265. # [10:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: The bug being that it doesn't wait for the alert?
  266. # [10:29] <annevk> zcorpan, hmm bug
  267. # [10:29] <annevk> at least, I think it is
  268. # [10:29] <zewt> is that the external script bug we were talking about the other day?
  269. # [10:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: the bug being that the inserted script runs before the inserted script finishes
  270. # [10:30] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  271. # [10:30] <jgraham> One day I plan to clean up Hallvord's script scheduling tests and submit them to the testsuite
  272. # [10:30] <annevk> i'd like to summarize public-html, but it's much more daunting
  273. # [10:30] <annevk> :/
  274. # [10:30] <zcorpan> annevk: seems gecko and webkit do as you say, but opera doesn't
  275. # [10:31] <jgraham> It's quite a bit of work though as they are based on guessing desired behaviour rather than a spec
  276. # [10:31] <jgraham> and so are wrong in some cases
  277. # [10:31] <zcorpan> anyone have ie9 at hand? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/850
  278. # [10:31] <zewt> hsivonen: i noticed that a while back, but I assumed it was known, and bugzilla is too hard to search ... sorry, heh
  279. # [10:31] <hsivonen> whoa, whoa! the script run in the right order if I use console.log.
  280. # [10:31] <hsivonen> not my bug!
  281. # [10:32] <hsivonen> bug in the new tab-model alert stuff more likely
  282. # [10:32] <hsivonen> whew.
  283. # [10:32] <zewt> yeah, that's what I thought you meant
  284. # [10:32] <hsivonen> I thought I had committed totally bogus code
  285. # [10:32] <zewt> alert() doesn't fully pause the event loop; external scripts will load during it now
  286. # [10:33] <hsivonen> zewt: I was wondering how tab modal alert was even possible with the required event loop semantics
  287. # [10:33] <hsivonen> violating the required semantics explains it
  288. # [10:34] <zewt> zcorpan: "IE has modified this page to help prevent cross-site scripting." and doesn't show anything
  289. # [10:34] <zewt> hsivonen: Opera does it correctly, IIRC
  290. # [10:34] <jgraham> Hmm, making tab modal alert possible seems important
  291. # [10:34] <hsivonen> zewt: yes, it does
  292. # [10:34] <zewt> the event loop is "paused" (no queued tasks run)
  293. # [10:34] <hsivonen> zewt: Opera's architecture is radically different
  294. # [10:34] <zewt> yeah, I'll take modal alerts no matter how many weird bugs it causes
  295. # [10:35] <zcorpan> zewt: can you disable or work around the xss protection?
  296. # [10:35] <zewt> zcorpan: it only has a "What's the risk?" link and an "X", no "no seriously, do it" button
  297. # [10:36] <zcorpan> zewt: you can disable it somewhere in prefs. to work aruond it, open the link in another browser, copy the input, paste it into ie
  298. # [10:36] <zewt> I just ran the code directly
  299. # [10:36] <zewt> x<script>document.body.setAttributeNS('x','xlink:href','1');
  300. # [10:36] <zewt> document.body.setAttribute('xlink:href','2');
  301. # [10:36] <zewt> alert(document.body.getAttribute('xlink:href'));
  302. # [10:36] <zewt> alerts 2 (as I'd expect)
  303. # [10:37] <zewt> why would/should that do anything else? seems the obvious behavior
  304. # [10:37] <zcorpan> thanks
  305. # [10:37] <zcorpan> seems like stupid behavior to me :)
  306. # [10:37] <zewt> ... how so?
  307. # [10:37] <zcorpan> would be much clearer if setAttribute() always set a no-namespace attribute
  308. # [10:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: BODY xlink:href="2"
  309. # [10:37] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  310. # [10:38] <zewt> i'm not even sure what that is, heh
  311. # [10:38] <zewt> why should x.setAttribute(a, b); x.getAttribute(a); ever return anything other than b?
  312. # [10:38] <zcorpan> what you get if you didn't have the first line in the script
  313. # [10:38] <zewt> ah that namespace
  314. # [10:39] <hsivonen> apparently if you have disabled the XSS filter for software.hixie.ch before installing IE9 RC, you need to disable it again after installing RC for it to take effect in RC
  315. # [10:39] <zewt> i'm not familiar with those--to me "namespace" is just the "xlink:" part of the attribute name
  316. # [10:39] <hsivonen> zewt: that's how bugs emerge
  317. # [10:39] <zewt> not even sure what the point of those NS functions is; I've never seen them used so I've never felt the need to see what they're for
  318. # [10:40] <hsivonen> zewt: the short version is that if you are doing SVG stuff without *NS, you are writing broken code
  319. # [10:40] <jgraham> (or MathML)
  320. # [10:40] <zewt> sounds like ugly legacy noise
  321. # [10:40] <jgraham> Hah
  322. # [10:40] <hsivonen> zewt: YES
  323. # [10:41] <zewt> which seems to comprise a significant chunk of DOM, heh
  324. # [10:41] <jgraham> It is the glorious future, don't ya know
  325. # [10:41] <zewt> but I'm still not sure why x.setAttribute('a:b', 'c'); x.getAttribute('a:b') shouldn't return 'c'
  326. # [10:41] <zcorpan> i guess we should suck it up and change opera, since we're the odd one out
  327. # [10:41] <zcorpan> but it still sucks
  328. # [10:42] <zewt> i've used attributes like that before, though I havn't had any reason to set them; mostly to let me put custom attributes in markup
  329. # [10:42] <zcorpan> zewt: i wouldn't mind if getAttribute() also only worked for no-namespace attributes, but there may be web compat problems with changing that
  330. # [10:43] <zewt> such as a whole lot of my code :)
  331. # [10:43] <jgraham> It turns out that colons are the worst possible character for doing custom whatever
  332. # [10:43] <jgraham> because they pull in all this architecture
  333. # [10:43] <zewt> well, not a lot, but I've been using it more lately, and I've never even considered using *NS for it
  334. # [10:43] <jgraham> that you don't want
  335. # [10:43] <jgraham> hence -data-foo
  336. # [10:43] <zcorpan> it'd still work if you used non-NS methods for both and never use NS methods
  337. # [10:44] <zcorpan> and don't use <svg xlink:href>
  338. # [10:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's happy fun that Facebook uses colons in HTML DOMs all over
  339. # [10:44] <zewt> well, the question for my code isn't setAttribute, it's markup
  340. # [10:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: with *NS methods!
  341. # [10:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess facebook has a culture of thinking they are smart enough to play with fire
  342. # [10:45] <zewt> well, if it works in every browser people test in, then people have no reason to think they're doing so
  343. # [10:45] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@mail.itoffshorenepal.com)
  344. # [10:46] <zewt> and if it works in every (or many) browsers, then the good old de facto standard process kicks in :|
  345. # [10:46] <hsivonen> zewt: that logic doesn't work for Facebook, since they have at least four engine-specific code paths
  346. # [10:46] <zewt> haha
  347. # [10:46] <hsivonen> zewt: so there's no guarantee that whatever happens on one of them would work cross-browser
  348. # [10:47] <zewt> i don't even use facebook, but from the times I've loaded the page, they're not doing anything fancy at all that would warrant that kind of complexity
  349. # [10:50] * Joins: apostolos (~apostolos@ppp091138142156.dsl.hol.gr)
  350. # [10:51] <jgraham> zewt: The implementation of facebook is more fancy than the content would suggest. Some of it seems a lit like unnecessary complexity, however
  351. # [10:52] <zewt> geh
  352. # [10:52] <jgraham> e.g. a great deal of content is loaded from scripts in order to reduce loading times (or something)
  353. # [10:52] * Quits: apostolos (~apostolos@ppp091138142156.dsl.hol.gr) (Client Quit)
  354. # [10:52] <zewt> on that setAttribute case, innerHTML shows <body href="2">
  355. # [10:52] * Joins: apostolos (~apostolos@ppp091138142156.dsl.hol.gr)
  356. # [10:52] <zewt> if I comment out the setAttributeNS, i get <body xlink:href="2>
  357. # [10:53] <zewt> in FF3
  358. # [10:53] <zewt> ">
  359. # [10:53] <zewt> do I even want to know? heh
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  364. # [11:04] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-same-origin
  365. # [11:05] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool123.cs.man.ac.uk)
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  367. # [11:15] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  368. # [11:15] <annevk> when is ben usually online?
  369. # [11:15] <annevk> I suppose I can write some announcement post tomorrow if he's too busy for it
  370. # [11:21] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
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  373. # [11:32] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
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  379. # [11:52] <annevk> in ABNF
  380. # [11:52] <annevk> well, HTTP BNF
  381. # [11:52] <annevk> there's #header-value
  382. # [11:52] <annevk> what is #header-value-or-some-other-value
  383. # [11:52] <annevk> #[a|b
  384. # [11:52] <annevk> ]
  385. # [11:52] <annevk> or just #a|b ?
  386. # [11:57] * Quits: homata__ (~homata_@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  387. # [11:58] <kennyluck> annevk, in http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-same-origin , the first link in the second item (dom) links to the wrong page (bugzilla) it seems.
  388. # [11:59] <annevk> not here...
  389. # [12:00] <annevk> it seems there is some markup error though
  390. # [12:00] * annevk goes to fix
  391. # [12:01] <annevk> fixed
  392. # [12:02] <kennyluck> thanks!
  393. # [12:02] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool123.cs.man.ac.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  404. # [12:38] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/from-origin/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#from-origin-response-header now has a processing model
  405. # [12:44] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@mail.itoffshorenepal.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  406. # [12:48] <hsivonen> annevk: the spec is completely obscure unless one remembers what prefix # means in this flavor of BNF
  407. # [12:49] <hsivonen> annevk: can the header take a list of multiple origins?
  408. # [12:49] <zewt> where's the definition of this BNF syntax? should it be referenced explicitly?
  409. # [12:50] <hsivonen> annevk: it's very sad that CORS doesn't allow multiple origins to be specified
  410. # [12:50] <hsivonen> zewt: that would help
  411. # [12:51] <zewt> i assumed the #[] meant a comma-separated list or something like that
  412. # [12:51] * hsivonen doesn't know what #[] means
  413. # [12:52] <hsivonen> also, the words origin and same aren't quoted but if they are non-terminals, I don't see expansions, either
  414. # [12:53] <hsivonen> "if none of" suggests that a list is allowed
  415. # [12:53] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@mail.itoffshorenepal.com)
  416. # [12:55] <annevk> hsivonen, first version of CORS is not meant for static resources
  417. # [12:55] <annevk> hsivonen, that Gecko used it for fonts without prior discussion with WebApps, well, ...
  418. # [12:55] <annevk> # is some HTTPism
  419. # [12:56] <annevk> makes sense to me to define headers the same way HTTP does
  420. # [12:56] * Joins: riven` (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  421. # [12:56] <annevk> you're right about same, I should make that an expansion and link origin to some definition in the origin concept draft
  422. # [12:58] <zewt> "same" = empty list, don't terminate in step 1 and depend on step 5 to allow same-origin only?
  423. # [12:59] <annevk> terminate means "these steps don't apply"
  424. # [12:59] <annevk> that should prolly be clarified somewhat
  425. # [12:59] <zewt> i know that
  426. # [12:59] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  427. # [12:59] <annevk> and "same" is a convenience keyword
  428. # [12:59] <annevk> if you can specify an empty header that should probably be allowed too
  429. # [12:59] * riven` is now known as riven
  430. # [12:59] <zewt> i mean "From-Origin: same" means #1 won't terminate and step 7 will always terminate?
  431. # [12:59] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
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  434. # [13:00] <zewt> er, abort
  435. # [13:00] <annevk> right
  436. # [13:00] <annevk> however, before step 7 it will be terminated if it's same origin
  437. # [13:00] <annevk> so that's all good
  438. # [13:00] <zewt> i figured that was the idea
  439. # [13:00] <zewt> having an empty header would be cleaner but yeah I don't remember if that's allowed, and it might be a bad idea anyway since nothing ever does that
  440. # [13:01] <zewt> probably best for empty header to be equivalent to no header
  441. # [13:01] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  442. # [13:01] <annevk> actually, WebDAV does that I believe
  443. # [13:02] <annevk> XHR also has a distinction between no header and empty string value
  444. # [13:02] <zewt> for example, there's no way to specify an empty header with curl
  445. # [13:02] <zewt> specifying an empty header removes it
  446. # [13:03] <annevk> anyway, currently it's not allowed
  447. # [13:03] <annevk> # means one or more
  448. # [13:03] <annevk> iirc
  449. # [13:03] <hsivonen> annevk: so is From-Origin: same, same conforming?
  450. # [13:03] <zewt> should it be #[origin | "same"]?
  451. # [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: it would be really nice to link the word "BNF" to whatever IETF flavor of BNF this is
  452. # [13:04] <zewt> bnf-fu very rusty
  453. # [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: also, linking the non-terminals to their expansions would be really nice
  454. # [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen, yes and yes it would; guess I'll do it now
  455. # [13:04] <annevk> zewt, no, then same would not be case-sensitive
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  461. # [13:08] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xml-20001006#sec-notation a link for EBNF
  462. # [13:08] <zewt> this relates not just to HTML but HTTP; should it reference HTTP for what "response header" means? not sure how explicit that's typically made
  463. # [13:09] <annevk> maybe case-insensitive is okay
  464. # [13:09] <zewt> that definition says "strings" are case-sensitive
  465. # [13:09] <annevk> lets not confuse HTTP ABNF with EBNF
  466. # [13:10] <karlcow> there is also ABNF http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4234
  467. # [13:10] <karlcow> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5234
  468. # [13:11] <karlcow> geez with erratas
  469. # [13:12] <hsivonen> karlcow: XML BNF is readable. Unlike the IETF stuff.
  470. # [13:12] <zewt> 15.7.1 Denial of Service Attacks on Proxies
  471. # [13:12] <zewt> They exist. They are hard to defend against. Research continues.
  472. # [13:12] <zewt> Beware.
  473. # [13:12] <zewt> gotta love a spec that uses the single word "beware" as a sentence
  474. # [13:13] <zewt> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#page-14
  475. # [13:14] <zewt> ("page-14" as an anchor? really?)
  476. # [13:14] <jgraham> ietf is kinda fucked up
  477. # [13:14] <zewt> writing specs as if the expectation is that everyone's going to print them out ... that's pretty amusing even for 1999
  478. # [13:15] <jgraham> They regard technologies that postdate the 60s with suspicion and even downright hostility
  479. # [13:15] <zcorpan> "They exist. They are hard to defend against. Research continues. Beware." seems like a good section for other stuff as well, like "Security considerations"
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  482. # [13:17] <zewt> can I be happy that we're in an age where we no longer feel the need to explicitly reference the ASCII spec from HTML
  483. # [13:17] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/from-origin/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#from-origin-response-header refresh
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  485. # [13:18] <jgraham> I thought we did reference the ASCII spec
  486. # [13:18] <karlcow> zewt: for http I recommend to look in the direction of httpbis
  487. # [13:19] <jgraham> They was a whole cycle of the Issue process around it, was there not?
  488. # [13:19] <karlcow> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/
  489. # [13:21] <zewt> annevk: perhaps explicitly say that these steps are to be performed as part of the "main step" of fetching
  490. # [13:21] <zewt> assuming that's where it goes
  491. # [13:22] <zewt> (implying that if F-O aborts the resource, cookies aren't updated, and so on)
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  496. # [13:25] <zcorpan> annevk: RFC2119 ref is broken
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  498. # [13:26] <jre> annevk, zevt: reusing the HTTP ABNF makes sense here.
  499. # [13:26] <annevk> thanks zewt, done
  500. # [13:27] <jre> the reference should go to http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2616.html#rfc.section.2.1
  501. # [13:27] <jre> (not that URI, but RFC 2616, Section 2.1)
  502. # [13:27] <zewt> httpbis ref is http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-12#page-7 but if it's the same may as well not use an in-progress reference
  503. # [13:27] <jre> you'll also need to steal the definition of OWS from HTTPbis
  504. # [13:27] <zewt> <zewt> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#page-14 <- that's the 2616 ref
  505. # [13:28] <jre> http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-12.html#rfc.section.1.2.2
  506. # [13:28] <annevk> I guess I'll just say that the ABNF is the same as the Web Origin Concept
  507. # [13:28] <annevk> so I can avoid dealing with HTTP references
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  509. # [13:28] <jre> it may make sense to steal the details from the new cookie spec
  510. # [13:29] <jre> actually no: it uses the 5234 syntax
  511. # [13:29] <annevk> it now just references ORIGIN
  512. # [13:30] <annevk> which in turn hopefully references some correct spec, but it's no longer my problem :)
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  514. # [13:30] <annevk> actually, this is not quite correct
  515. # [13:30] <annevk> bah
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  517. # [13:32] <zewt> annevk: the fetch algorithm has a specifically named "main step"; i think it makes sense to refer to it by name to be precise about where in the algorithm it goes
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  519. # [13:32] <zewt> (of course, it won't be when multiple addon-specs are doing that, but heh)
  520. # [13:32] <annevk> origin-list is space separated :/
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  523. # [13:37] <annevk> fixed bnf again
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  525. # [13:37] <annevk> zewt, yeah, this all needs to be integrated one day
  526. # [13:38] <annevk> at some point someone might take everything network and write it all down :)
  527. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> annevk: please take a look at http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/static.html and let me know if you see any problems
  528. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> please compare to http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/Notifications.html
  529. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> the main difference is where/how the Notification constructor is defined
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  531. # [13:41] <annevk> MikeSmith, that is wrong
  532. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> Berjon's current JS respec does not seem to provide any way to handle the constructor differently than normal methods
  533. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> hmm
  534. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> oK
  535. # [13:41] <hendry> Philip`: hi there, can we chat about how reports are gathered with your test harness?
  536. # [13:41] <annevk> MikeSmith, now it says there's a method Notification on the Notification object
  537. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> annevk; so now I have to hack fricking respec more
  538. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know
  539. # [13:42] <annevk> MikeSmith, respec2 doesn't handle it either? sounds painful
  540. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> I can't imagine this is the first spec using respec that has needed to document a constructtor
  541. # [13:42] <annevk> MikeSmith, I'm fine with publishing as-is though, maybe with a note
  542. # [13:43] <annevk> or maybe berjon knows a cure
  543. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> nah, I can fix it today
  544. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> maybe
  545. # [13:43] <annevk> zewt, added main step
  546. # [13:43] <annevk> zewt, hsivonen, thanks a lot
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  567. # [14:48] <Philip`> hendry: Sure
  568. # [14:48] <Philip`> hendry: (Which test harness?)
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  578. # [15:05] <hendry> Philip`: w3c one, did you get my email btw?
  579. # [15:06] <Philip`> hendry: I see the email now
  580. # [15:07] <Philip`> I know nothing about the W3C test reporting system
  581. # [15:07] <jgraham> hendry: What is the question?
  582. # [15:07] <Philip`> I've heard that it's mostly manual so I haven't been inclined to have a look at it
  583. # [15:09] <hendry> jgraham: just a general enquiry to how the actual reporting is done. e.g. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/tip/tests/submission
  584. # [15:09] <hendry> Philip`: i.e. how automation is best done :)
  585. # [15:10] <jgraham> hendry: Oh, like Philip` I haven't dared look at that too hard
  586. # [15:10] * Joins: bfrohs (~bfrohs@smtp.forewordinternal.com)
  587. # [15:11] <jgraham> There is a javascript thing in the repo somewhere that opens the tests in an iframe and lets people submit the results and builds that XML or something
  588. # [15:11] <hendry> jgraham: if you find it let me know
  589. # [15:12] <hendry> jgraham, Philip` if there are reporting / automated examples I could see, I would be grateful
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  591. # [15:12] <Philip`> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/harness/harness.htm
  592. # [15:12] <Philip`> You click pass/fail buttons 819 times and then click "test results" and then post it to a mailing list, I think
  593. # [15:12] <hendry> Philip`: ah ..
  594. # [15:13] <jgraham> hendry: Oh, Philip` beat me to it
  595. # [15:13] <jgraham> The whole thing is insane
  596. # [15:13] <jgraham> the most useful thing would be if people would stop spamming me with test results :(
  597. # [15:13] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/reportgenentry.html is my automated one but that's for a slightly obsolete version of the tests
  598. # [15:13] <Philip`> and also you can't submit the results anywhere
  599. # [15:13] <jgraham> But there must be something somewhere encouraging it
  600. # [15:14] <jgraham> Also, it is quite trivial to build an automated harness for the javascript tests
  601. # [15:14] <jgraham> Since it has an API specifically for that purpose
  602. # [15:14] <zewt> click a button 819 times? make a game out of it and people will pay to run your tests for you
  603. # [15:15] <hendry> jgraham: where is this API documented?
  604. # [15:15] <jgraham> hendry: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/0be07106838c/tests/resources/testharness.js
  605. # [15:15] <jgraham> See where it says "external API"
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  607. # [15:15] <jgraham> zewt: Heh
  608. # [15:16] <jgraham> We should totally do that
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  610. # [15:16] <jgraham> Make people pay to buy a test autoclicker than can submit 5 results for them
  611. # [15:16] <Philip`> Make an online game like The Typing of the Dead
  612. # [15:17] <jgraham> I was totally thinking farmville
  613. # [15:17] <Philip`> where instead of showing you a word you have to type in to kill zombies, it shows a test case in an iframe and you have to select pass/fail to kill zombies
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  615. # [15:18] <Philip`> The end-of-level boss can be a series of test cases submitted by Microsoft where it's really hard to figure out whether it passed or failed
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  617. # [15:18] <zewt> heh typing of the dead
  618. # [15:18] <zewt> someone had me playing that years ago, except it was the japanese version on DC
  619. # [15:18] <hendry> jgraham: don't quite understand that "external API" stuff, was expecting to see a func with XMLHttpRequest post
  620. # [15:19] <Philip`> "Test passes if the text 'PASS' appears to the left and the text 'Your browser does not support media elements.' does not appear anywhere on this page."
  621. # [15:19] <zewt> not being able to read any of it made the boss battles ... a challenge
  622. # [15:19] <Philip`> That text will always appear on that page, as part of the instructions
  623. # [15:20] <hendry> jgraham: so one implements result_callback to post results or something?
  624. # [15:21] <hendry> jgraham: i need an example i think
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  632. # [15:34] <Workshiva> Philip`: This test intentionally left failing
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  638. # [15:49] <jgraham> Philip`: Hah
  639. # [15:50] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  640. # [15:51] <jgraham> hendry: If one loads the test in an iframe it will try to send the results to a function in the top-level browsing context called completion_callback
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  642. # [15:51] <jgraham> It might have been neater to use postMessage…
  643. # [15:51] <jgraham> In fact it might still be possible to change
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  645. # [15:53] <annevk> zcorpan, need any information on generating the spec?
  646. # [15:54] <annevk> I currently use (and change ED to WD somewhere and add -F date=2011-xx-xx when generating a copy for publication):
  647. # [15:54] <annevk> curl -u w3c-user:password -F file=@Overview.src.html -F group=none -F output=html -F method=file http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/process.cgi -o Overview.html
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  654. # [16:10] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks
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  657. # [16:15] <zcorpan> where do i change ED to WD?
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  660. # [16:20] <zcorpan> the current version seems to be WD
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  662. # [16:26] <zcorpan> annevk: ^
  663. # [16:29] <annevk> I guess you can keep it that way
  664. # [16:29] <zcorpan> ok
  665. # [16:30] <annevk> but if someone wants you to change it back, change WD to ED in the "This Version:" URL in http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/Overview.src.html
  666. # [16:30] <annevk> everything else should adjust automatically
  667. # [16:31] <zcorpan> ok
  668. # [16:31] <annevk> if something breaks with the generator you probably need to contact Bert Bos or switch to Anolis
  669. # [16:31] <annevk> publication related questions are probably best directed to Mike Smith
  670. # [16:31] <zcorpan> i added myself as editor to see if it'd work
  671. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can help with pub stuff
  672. # [16:32] <zcorpan> cool
  673. # [16:33] <zcorpan> i guess i'm all set then
  674. # [16:34] <zcorpan> annevk: one more, what do you check when you update it? just the svn log?
  675. # [16:34] <annevk> yes
  676. # [16:34] <zcorpan> ok
  677. # [16:34] <annevk> I keep track of SVN numbers in the comments
  678. # [16:34] <zewt> how did this thread about microphone devices suddenly turn towards sh? heh
  679. # [16:34] <zewt> that may be the most nonsensical suggestion I've seen on the list yet
  680. # [16:35] <annevk> if you look at the HTML5 changelogs section it should be pretty simple to figure out
  681. # [16:35] <annevk> that is, if you look at the source
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  683. # [16:35] <annevk> feel free to make more ambitious changes though :)
  684. # [16:35] <annevk> such as defining the DOM HTML delta or some such
  685. # [16:35] <annevk> ;)
  686. # [16:36] <zcorpan> heh, don't worry, i won't :)
  687. # [16:37] <zcorpan> ok seeya
  688. # [16:38] <annevk> :)
  689. # [16:38] <zcorpan> btw i won't be in linköping this week
  690. # [16:38] <zcorpan> so i guess i won't seeya
  691. # [16:38] <zcorpan> anyway
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  693. # [16:39] <annevk> aaah
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  695. # [16:41] <annevk> Ms2ger, when you read this, jgraham has been given access to dom-core to commit some tests
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  697. # [16:45] <annevk> zcorpan, you forgot "editor" under "Acknowledgments" :)
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  704. # [17:16] <Rik`> "Error: Text run is not in Unicode Normalization Form C."
  705. # [17:16] <Rik`> what the hell does that mean?
  706. # [17:17] <jgraham> Dunno why it's an error
  707. # [17:17] <jgraham> But apart from that it means what it says, mostly
  708. # [17:17] <Workshiva> Because unicode is bad enough with NFC
  709. # [17:18] <jgraham> Rik`: It means that certain sequences of characters and combining characters are in docomposed form rather than single-codepoint form
  710. # [17:18] <jgraham> e.g. if you have an e character followed by an acute combining mark
  711. # [17:18] <Workshiva> If you have e.g. A followed by ring-above-symbol-whatnot instead of Å
  712. # [17:18] <jgraham> rather than an e-acute character
  713. # [17:19] <Rik`> jgraham: oh right, thanks !
  714. # [17:19] <jgraham> Rik`: Note that NFC doesn't mean that there aren't *any* combining chracters
  715. # [17:19] <jgraham> It just means that there aren't the ones in NFC
  716. # [17:19] <jgraham> (I believe that NFD is fully decomposed, however)
  717. # [17:20] <jgraham> http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/
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  719. # [17:21] <jgraham> Also http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/07/06/nfc seems quite relevant to your situation
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  737. # [18:06] <Rik`> still experiencing funny error messages
  738. # [18:06] <Rik`> Error: Bad value UserVoice.Popin.show(uservoiceOptions); return false; for attribute onclick on element a: invalid return
  739. # [18:06] <Rik`> why is can't it "return false" ?
  740. # [18:06] <zewt> i don't even know what language that is, heh
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  742. # [18:07] <zewt> of course I didn't sleep last night and I'm in zombie mode, but
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  760. # [18:40] <karlcow> http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2011/02/28/webgl-and-hardware-acceleration-2
  761. # [18:40] <Rik`> hsivonen: do you have any idea ?
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  764. # [18:46] <annevk> fuck iTunes
  765. # [18:46] <annevk> bought Radiohead album in WAV because why not
  766. # [18:46] <annevk> drag into iTunes
  767. # [18:46] <annevk> iTunes does not play ball
  768. # [18:47] <annevk> after modifying song names and album information appropriately myself (because iTunes does not play ball) it does not allow me to change the frigging artwork
  769. # [18:47] <annevk> does this mean I now have to buy the MP3 version to get this to work?
  770. # [18:52] <matjas> try using iTunes to convert it to MP3
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  772. # [18:59] <hsivonen> Rik`: any idea about return false; in onclick? no, no idea
  773. # [18:59] <zewt> WAV is hard stuff
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  776. # [19:03] <matjas> TabAtkins: http://asi.qfox.nl/ is pretty cool
  777. # [19:03] <zewt> annevk: the terms "type" and "name" with events are used of ambiguously in places
  778. # [19:04] <Rik`> so validator.nu says there is an error but validator.w3.org says it's ok
  779. # [19:04] <zewt> DOM Core refers to the event interface as the "type" and the event name as the "name", but the parameter to init*Event functions is "type" (refering to the name)
  780. # [19:05] <zewt> and specs seem inconsistent (in eventsource within "dispatch the event", step 3 uses "name" and step 4 uses "type" to--I think--refer to the same thing)
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  782. # [19:11] <zewt> might be more consistent for DOM Core to always say "event that uses the Event interface" and never refer to that as "type" or "name"
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  784. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> Yus! I missed 6 ASIs and wasted 8 unnecessary. Still pretty good!
  785. # [19:11] <zewt> (I think "type" is sort of entrenched, due to the prototypes of all of the initEvent methods)
  786. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> Most of those wasted ones were me putting them after function declarations, which the rules didn't call out explicitly.
  787. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> (It's subsumed in the "hidden rules" it mentions, I guess.)
  788. # [19:13] <karlcow> hmmmm checking http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/ too
  789. # [19:15] <zewt> i think DOM Events always uses "type" to refer to the event name, not "name"
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  792. # [19:16] <zewt> so yeah I'd also change the term "name" to "type", I think
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  814. # [20:09] <zewt> aren't custom events a bit of a namespace nightmare? as soon as people start using events with arbitrary names, adding new events to anything ever will cause backwards-compat problems
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  823. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> Argh, how can someone in the leadership of the accessibility group write such inaccessible emails?
  824. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> I can't figure out who is saying what in the quoted part of this top-posted email, and I'm a fully-sighted user.
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  840. # [21:01] <hober> TabAtkins: srsly
  841. # [21:03] <Hixie> kennyluck: please don't cross-post messages to the whatwg list, it causes thread fragmentation when people not on the list reply to the thread
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  855. # [21:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "There is an option to ignore the “legacy doctype” and “xml:lang” errors that Validator.nu reports for documents using an XHTML doctype" http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201102/html5_validator_extension_updates/
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  873. # [22:07] <kennyluck> Hixie: hmm... OK, but I was replying a mail that was cross-posted. What am I supposed to do?
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  876. # [22:12] <Hixie> kennyluck: figure out the best list to reply to, i guess :-)
  877. # [22:12] <Hixie> kennyluck: are you on whatwg?
  878. # [22:12] <kennyluck> Hixie: Yeah.
  879. # [22:12] <Hixie> k
  880. # [22:12] <zewt> only replying to one list is causing thread fragmentation, not replying to all :P
  881. # [22:13] <Hixie> yeah but it just encourages others to do the same :-)
  882. # [22:14] <zewt> crossposting between relevant lists is pretty ordinary--works fine as long as lists aren't subscriber-post-only (unfortunately, some lists are)
  883. # [22:14] <karlushi> You can minimize the damage of cross-posting by stopping the thread and replying to one list and then send an email to the other list pointing to the discussion. Reply-To: might help too. Though nothing perfect, beauty of humans.
  884. # [22:14] <zewt> (like that annoying PRNG thread that people expected everyone to subscribe to es-discuss for)
  885. # [22:14] <Hixie> zewt: yeah. whatwg is, for spam control reasons
  886. # [22:15] <zewt> speaking of spam control, maybe the spec feedback form should throw away comments that begin with "Please enter your feedback" :)
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  888. # [22:17] <kennyluck> Hmm... the email address I use everyday isn't the email address I use to subscribe to the whatwg list. I guess that's the reason why my letter doesn't show up on the whatwg list.
  889. # [22:18] <Hixie> zewt: is it common?
  890. # [22:19] <zewt> probably not common enough to actually spend time on it, though if I was the one who had to keep closing them I might get annoyed enough to, heh
  891. # [22:19] <Hixie> if it's happened more than twice i'm happy to add code for it, it'll take a second or two
  892. # [22:19] <Hixie> paste the urls to the cases where it happens and i'll deal with it
  893. # [22:20] <zewt> eg. http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12206
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  896. # [22:21] <zewt> (i'm surprised those don't happen more often than they do)
  897. # [22:21] <Hixie> wow i wonder how _that_ happens
  898. # [22:22] <AryehGregor> Why is it so hard to traverse the DOM in tree order?
  899. # [22:22] <Hixie> six times so far
  900. # [22:22] <Hixie> crazy
  901. # [22:22] <AryehGregor> From JavaScript, I mean.
  902. # [22:22] * Hixie goes to block that case
  903. # [22:22] <AryehGregor> Would Node.nextNode be too much to ask?
  904. # [22:22] <zewt> is it hard?
  905. # [22:22] <Hixie> AryehGregor: Node.nextSibling?
  906. # [22:22] <AryehGregor> Hixie, what if it's the last child?
  907. # [22:22] <Hixie> AryehGregor: oh you mean including the next node
  908. # [22:22] <AryehGregor> Or what if it has a child?
  909. # [22:22] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: walk parentNode?
  910. # [22:22] <Hixie> AryehGregor: use a node iterator
  911. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> Hmm, let me look into that.
  912. # [22:23] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: NodeIterator?
  913. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> Is that available cross-browser these days?
  914. # [22:24] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Non-IE, at least. It's in Acid3. I think IE9 supports it.
  915. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> This seems way more complicated than I want.
  916. # [22:24] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-590c7828.pool.mediaWays.net)
  917. # [22:24] * AryehGregor just does it manually
  918. # [22:24] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: If you want to do it for all documents, have fun with IE's non-tree documents.
  919. # [22:25] <zewt> write a nextNode(node) function, add it to the bag of helpers :)
  920. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's what I did.
  921. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, well, if IE does that, it will just fail my tests, so too bad on it.
  922. # [22:25] <Hixie> make sure it fails and doesn't lock u
  923. # [22:25] <Hixie> p
  924. # [22:27] <jgraham> Locking up browsers is fun!
  925. # [22:27] <jgraham> But probably shouldn't be encouraged...
  926. # [22:28] <zewt> Hixie: maybe he's asking you to enter your feedback (to yourself)
  927. # [22:28] <Hixie> heh
  928. # [22:28] <zewt> that would be rather literal feedback
  929. # [22:29] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Indeed, what Hixie said is the risk here. (Just following the circle.)
  930. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Well, tests that time out fail automatically, right?
  931. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Anyway, does IE9 in standards mode allow non-tree documents?
  932. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Not like we're testing compatibility modes.
  933. # [22:30] * AryehGregor will worry about it when he gets to it
  934. # [22:30] <zewt> better to detect an infinite loop and fail quickly instead of waiting for a timeout and making the test set take forever
  935. # [22:30] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I think not.
  936. # [22:31] <Hixie> we'll have to test compatibility modes in due course
  937. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> I doubt it.
  938. # [22:31] <jgraham> Boy is that going to be a fun discussion
  939. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> We'll probably never test compatibility modes.
  940. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> IE's, anyway.
  941. # [22:31] <jgraham> We should test doctype/no doctype at least
  942. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> Nobody has any real reason to want to emulate them.
  943. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> Well, maybe someday.
  944. # [22:32] <Hixie> the spec doesn't have compatibility modes, it just has one set of rules that include some differences based on the doctype
  945. # [22:32] <Hixie> so...
  946. # [22:32] <zewt> it's annoying that apparently only IE9 changes modes significantly with no doctype
  947. # [22:32] <gsnedders> Yeah, we should test standards/quirks.
  948. # [22:32] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  949. # [22:32] <gsnedders> But that's going to be painful enough.
  950. # [22:33] <jgraham> I'm not sure that intentionally putting IE in a compat mode to show that it doesn't follow standards in that mode really helps anyone
  951. # [22:33] <Hixie> i don't really care about IE
  952. # [22:33] <Hixie> it's not an IE issue
  953. # [22:33] <jgraham> But showing that it fails to follow ordinary quirks mode is fine
  954. # [22:33] <zewt> (every time I make a quick test HTML and I'm lazy and don't put a doctype, everything works fine in every browser ... except IE9, which falls to quirksmode)
  955. # [22:33] <Hixie> since they refuse to follow the spec for this anyway
  956. # [22:33] <Hixie> we still need to make sure the spec is useful for the browsers who _do_ want to follow it
  957. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: Then what is gained by testing it?
  958. # [22:34] <Hixie> IE isn't the only browser?
  959. # [22:34] <jgraham> Right, but it is reasonable to assume that <meta content=what-ever-the-magic-is> won't dpo anything magic in non-IE browsers
  960. # [22:34] <Hixie> zewt: i tried to add somethin to prevent the case you mentioned earlier
  961. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: But how likely are they to end up on the wrong code-path because of x-ua-compatible?
  962. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: cost/benefit doesn't seem to make it seem worthwhile, because the meta does nothing.
  963. # [22:35] <Hixie> jgraham: oh i wasn't suggesting having tests that check the IE thing
  964. # [22:35] <zewt> i don't expect other browsers to deliberately break when there's no doctype, but it'd be nice if there was *some* indication, so the problem doesn't lurk
  965. # [22:35] <Hixie> didn't mean to imply anything about X-UA-Compatible
  966. # [22:35] <jgraham> Hixie: It sounded like you were :)
  967. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Indeed. :)
  968. # [22:35] <Hixie> what did i say that sounded like that?
  969. # [22:35] * Hixie is confoosed
  970. # [22:35] <jgraham> 15:26 < Hixie> we'll have to test compatibility modes in due course
  971. # [22:35] <gsnedders> We should test everything in at least quirks/non-quirks. Dunno if we sohuld test everything in limit-quirked.
  972. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: "compatibility modes" is something I only ever hear wrt IE's modes
  973. # [22:36] <jgraham> "compatibility modes" in context sounds like the IEism
  974. # [22:36] <Hixie> jgraham: i meant the quirks mode thing, sorry
  975. # [22:36] <jgraham> not the spec thing
  976. # [22:36] <jgraham> Hixie: np
  977. # [22:36] * jgraham is less ambitious than gsnedders
  978. # [22:37] <Hixie> back in a bit, unch
  979. # [22:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think we want to check for everything that behaviour isn't changed by being in quirks
  980. # [22:37] * jgraham would settle for tests that just cover the areas where they should be the same
  981. # [22:37] <gsnedders> To avoid browsers changing too much in quirks
  982. # [22:37] <jgraham> er
  983. # [22:37] <jgraham> s/same/different/
  984. # [22:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: We can do that ofc
  985. # [22:37] <jgraham> But it seems like a lot of effort for not much gain
  986. # [22:38] <jgraham> (like: it won't just be a case of adding or removing <!doctype html> from the top of each html file)
  987. # [22:38] <gsnedders> I know.
  988. # [22:39] <gsnedders> It should be for a lot, though.
  989. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Very little changes per spec for quirks mode.
  990. # [22:39] <gsnedders> CSS would be a huge amount of work, but HTML5 wouldn't be.
  991. # [22:39] <jgraham> Lots of tests will do thjings like load documents in iframes
  992. # [22:39] <jgraham> Do you need to change the document in the iframe
  993. # [22:39] <jgraham> *So
  994. # [22:40] <jgraham> Which could be a data: uri
  995. # [22:40] <jgraham> So there is no automated approach that will be reliable
  996. # [22:40] <jgraham> So it will mean going through all submissions by hand
  997. # [22:40] <jgraham> Which is possible ofc
  998. # [22:41] <jgraham> It's not like it will be an impossible amount of work
  999. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Hixie: While you're changing the comment verifier code, could you reject any feedback starting with a doctype too? For reasons unknown to me a lot of the spam is people just putting source-code for pages into the comment box, and I haven't seen a single bug legitimately start with a doctype.
  1000. # [22:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: I would much rather do that, FWIW.
  1001. # [22:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: Than having separate tests.
  1002. # [22:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do what?
  1003. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Hixie: (You could probably get away with just rejecting anything starting with "<", possibly preceded by whitespace.)
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  1008. # [22:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: Having the same testsuite for both, pretty much.
  1009. # [22:42] <jgraham> TabAtkins: <html> might be a better be
  1010. # [22:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: If you can convince someone to pay for it, sure
  1011. # [22:42] <jgraham> *bet
  1012. # [22:42] <jgraham> At the moment we don't even have an automated harness
  1013. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> jgraham: That wouldn't work - a good chunk of the relevant spam starts witha doctype, not <html>.
  1014. # [22:42] <jgraham> So some proverb involving beggars and choosers comes to mind
  1015. # [22:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: But an automated harness is needed by no browser vendor, so…
  1016. # [22:43] <zewt> relevant spam - an uncommon sequence of words
  1017. # [22:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: Whereas more tests benefit browser vendors.
  1018. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> zewt: Meaning "the spam under discussion", of coruse.
  1019. # [22:43] <zewt> i know, heh
  1020. # [22:43] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I think I meant <!DOCTYPE | <html>
  1021. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Oh, okay. Yeah, I suspect that would catch most of them. Though I don't think I've ever seen a legitimate bug starting with <, either.
  1022. # [22:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: Doubling the number of tests just to test the same codepath twice in most cases doesn't sound that appealing to vendors
  1023. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Best, of course, would be setting up an approval queue that a few of us can hit and accept/reject things quickly and easily before hitting the bugzilla.
  1024. # [22:45] <jgraham> It makes test runs take twice as long, doubles the number of regressions to investigate per bug, and takes time to implement
  1025. # [22:45] * gsnedders doesn't feel like debating it now
  1026. # [22:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: Clearly it is an axis along which browser behaviour can vary. But one presumes that in a sane browser the mode doesn't propogate everywhere
  1027. # [22:46] <jgraham> So it doesn't seem more valuable then, say, making sure all tests pass if there is at least one script in the DOM
  1028. # [22:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: We need some tests for things that quirks mode might obviously change, at the very least. And things it does change in any browsers in the past few years.
  1029. # [22:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: Agreed entirely
  1030. # [22:47] <gsnedders> How far we go is a question we'll need to discuss, though
  1031. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> Okay, testing deleteContents() is kind of annoying.
  1032. # [22:47] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Quit: http://brandedcode.com | http://github.com/miksago)
  1033. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> Because it's a real pain to reset between tests . . .
  1034. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> Especially since cloneNode() doesn't work on Documents for some obnoxious reason.
  1035. # [22:47] <zewt> this is bugging me--aren't custom event names (with no requirement of any sane namespacing) going to cause backwards-compat issues in the future, because people will be using every conceivable verb as an event name?
  1036. # [22:47] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Can you use try/catch/finally?
  1037. # [22:48] <gsnedders> zewt: No moreso than creating new HTML elements.
  1038. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> jgraham, how does that help when it successfully deletes a chunk of the document? I have to restore the document to its previous state somehow.
  1039. # [22:48] <jgraham> try {/*do the test*/} catch(e) {throw e} finally {/*reset*/}
  1040. # [22:48] <zewt> people aren't exactly encouraged to use arbitrary strings as HTML elements
  1041. # [22:48] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 4.0b12pre/20110222000907])
  1042. # [22:48] <zewt> (rather, they're strongly discouraged from it)
  1043. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> That's not the issue, the issue is I have to actually reset the document.
  1044. # [22:48] <hober> name collisions just aren't that big of a deal in practice
  1045. # [22:48] <gsnedders> zewt: Go read the IE blog :P
  1046. # [22:49] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Well yes, I am somewhat assuming you have a way to create the initial state
  1047. # [22:49] <jgraham> I recommend recreating all state from scratch between tests
  1048. # [22:49] * Quits: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  1049. # [22:49] <zewt> also, one set of horrible backwards-compatibility black holes doesn't justify another :P
  1050. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> That's what I'll have to do here, yes.
  1051. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> For things that don't mutate the DOM, it's not really necessary.
  1052. # [22:49] <jgraham> Right
  1053. # [22:50] <jgraham> But in general it is good if errors from one test don't propogate into others
  1054. # [22:50] <zewt> it's not a problem if people use event names with any sensible namespacing scheme, but there's no convention in place or anything
  1055. # [22:50] <jgraham> (for some reason, I seem to recall that javascript libraries love making tests like that)
  1056. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> I generally adopt the philosophy that if there are test failures, I'll look into them then.
  1057. # [22:50] * AryehGregor realizes he can just use innerHTML to reset, nice
  1058. # [22:52] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  1059. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> (assuming my DOM is nice enough that it will round-trip, but if not, oh well)
  1060. # [22:52] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Bear in mind that you are (hopefully) not the only consumer of your tests
  1061. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> I'm testing all the consumers of my tests.
  1062. # [22:52] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
  1063. # [22:52] <hober> zewt: if you don't want your names to collide, pick sufficiently interesting names.
  1064. # [22:53] <zewt> but web specs generally don't make changes under the notion of "it's okay to break web pages if the developer was incompetent"
  1065. # [22:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Right, but the ultimate consumer is some developer who gets a regression report telling them that a whole bunch of contentEditable tests failed with the changes they made
  1066. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> I'm aware of that.
  1067. # [22:58] <AryehGregor> Ugh, why can't Documents be cloned?
  1068. # [22:59] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1069. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Because cloning is an abomination.
  1070. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> Why?
  1071. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> I should have added "...unto God."
  1072. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> Why?
  1073. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> I dunno, go ask the Bible.
  1074. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> I didn't make the rules here.
  1075. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> . . .
  1076. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> You know, I just realized that restoring the document by overwriting the contents of the log isn't really that useful for testing purposes.
  1077. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> I think I'm going to use an iframe.
  1078. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> That seems a lot saner.
  1079. # [23:05] * AryehGregor now has to figure out how iframes work, exactly, but that shouldn't be too hard
  1080. # [23:06] <jgraham> As long as you remember that the load is async, all is good
  1081. # [23:08] <jgraham> (which is pretty straightforward)
  1082. # [23:12] <Hixie> TabAtkins: sure
  1083. # [23:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: on it
  1084. # [23:15] * Parts: bfrohs (~bfrohs@smtp.forewordinternal.com)
  1085. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Either my suggestion (reject if it starts with "<") or jgraham's (reject if it starts with "<!doctype" or "<html") would work.
  1086. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Reject if it starts with "<" sounds too broad.
  1087. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I don't recall ever seeing a legitimate bug that started with "<".
  1088. # [23:19] <Hixie> i rejected with a <, it'll only affect ms2ger
  1089. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Haha.
  1090. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> I suppose starting a bug with a chat transcript may cause a problem.
  1091. # [23:19] <Hixie> people should give context anyway
  1092. # [23:20] <Hixie> i hate reading these bugs that just start without context so i've no idea wtf y'all are talking about until i'm half-way through
  1093. # [23:20] <Hixie> then i have to reread it with context :-P
  1094. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, http://bit.ly/eAdCP7
  1095. # [23:20] <Hixie> i've also updated the bug report form so it logs the user agent, hopefully we'll be able to see if there's any patterns there
  1096. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That reminds me, I have a five-page paper expounding on the changes you should make to HTML.
  1097. # [23:21] <Hixie> cool, mail it in
  1098. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> E.g.: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7746
  1099. # [23:21] <Hixie> i'll stick it on top of the other 1600 pages :-P
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  1101. # [23:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: 118 decision just posted
  1102. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I was, um, joking about rambling context-less bugs. ^_^
  1103. # [23:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: will 3 weeks extra time to draft a 119 counter-proposal be sufficient?
  1104. # [23:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: :-P
  1105. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Okay, point taken. Shrug. They can start their bug with something else, or file it via bugzilla.
  1106. # [23:22] <Hixie> othermaciej: one sec
  1107. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> Is there a spec for how encoding names are supposed to be processed? (Apropos: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2011/02/28/script-error-c00ce56e-means-you-have-specified-an-invalid-charset-utf8-is-not-utf-8.aspx)
  1108. # [23:22] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237) (Quit: plainhao)
  1109. # [23:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: doesn't that decision supercede issue 119 altogether?
  1110. # [23:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: (awesome decision, btw)
  1111. # [23:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: (didn't expect that to go that way at all)
  1112. # [23:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: I have no idea, I don't remember what 119 is about
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  1114. # [23:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: did the relations with special meaning when repeated all get dropped?
  1115. # [23:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes
  1116. # [23:24] <othermaciej> it's just about "up"?
  1117. # [23:25] <othermaciej> ok
  1118. # [23:25] <Hixie> othermaciej: 118 drops index, up, first, and last. 119 is about up.
  1119. # [23:25] <Hixie> othermaciej: allow me to make this easier on you. I retract any intent to object to 119. :-)
  1120. # [23:26] <othermaciej> then I guess I should just post a call for consensus to close 119 by amicable resolution
  1121. # [23:29] <Hixie> sounds good
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The end :)