/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 03 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:20] <jamesr> heycam, yt?
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  38. # [01:10] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I think WeBMartians meant that I made an ad hominem attack on Microsoft, by saying they care about developers more than users.
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  51. # [01:49] <heycam> jamesr, hi (though busy)
  52. # [01:49] <jamesr_> heycam: so it seems the web perf WG has decided that requestanimationframe should be in their charter. the FX TF has also decided that requestanimationframe is in their scope
  53. # [01:50] <jamesr_> i'm happy to help get it standardized in some form with either group
  54. # [01:50] <zewt> what does that have to do with performance? isn't that basically a vsync feature or something?
  55. # [01:50] <jamesr_> zewt: that is somewhat mysterious to me as well
  56. # [01:50] <zewt> web perf is profiling stuff, right?
  57. # [01:51] <jamesr_> previously, yeah
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  59. # [01:51] <jamesr_> they've decided to expand their charter
  60. # [01:51] <zewt> not too familiar with it, but sounds ... sort of contrived, heh
  61. # [01:51] <heycam> i think it's ok to go with web perf
  62. # [01:52] * heycam must return to svg wg f2f stuff
  63. # [01:52] <jamesr_> ok
  64. # [01:52] <jamesr_> my main concern with web perf is that nobody from apple is there (i assume that you can keep roc / boris z up to date)
  65. # [01:53] <roc> I think it's OK, heycam can represent us there :-)
  66. # [01:54] <jamesr_> i guess i could harass smfr into joining the web perf WG
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  69. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> Google people: are there internal Google aliases that reject all external mail or something? Some people have been sending me stuff CCd to webkit-editing@google.com, but when I reply all, it bounces.
  70. # [01:58] <jamesr_> yes, most internal mailing lists bounce external mail
  71. # [01:58] <jamesr_> you shouldn't be CC'd on such lists in general
  72. # [01:59] <jamesr_> tell whoever is adding you to the CC list that they are doing it wrong ;)
  73. # [02:00] <jamesr_> and should probably be having the whole thread on the appropriate external list
  74. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> I told them to repost feedback to whatwg, which they by and large did, so all is well.
  75. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> Just wondering.
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  212. # [06:50] <Hixie> is there a mouse capturing api in the platform?
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  216. # [06:53] <Hixie> i'm doing stuff using dragging around a canvas, and i can't work out how to not have one of these bugs:
  217. # [06:53] <Hixie> 1) dragging out, releasing the mouse button, and going back in makes the ui drag things around without a button
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  219. # [07:00] <Hixie> 2) dragging out and back in without releeasing the button loses the drag
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  274. # [09:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think annevk worked around those issues in his canvas paintr
  275. # [09:07] <zcorpan> http://annevankesteren.nl/2006/08-paintr21
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  284. # [09:25] <zcorpan> lol "If your web application fails in browsers with scripting disabled, Jakob Nielsen’s dog will come to your house and shit on your carpet." http://diveintohtml5.org/history.html
  285. # [09:32] <zcorpan> boo for using sync xhr
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  294. # [09:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen, MikeSmith: <meta http-equiv="Content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta charset="utf-8"> validates
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  296. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
  297. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> validator is currently not doing any check for that at all
  298. # [09:52] <zcorpan> known?
  299. # [09:52] <zcorpan> oh?
  300. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> yeah, I filed a spec bug on this
  301. # [09:52] <zcorpan> ok
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  303. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> I think the spec should just say, "A document must not have more than one character-encoding declaration."
  304. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> and leave it at that
  305. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> the current spec language doesn't even prohibit multiple <meta http-equiv="Content-type"… instances
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  307. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: what I think we should implement is: report an error for any character-encoding declaration except the first one (in document order)
  308. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> and possibly, also report the location of the first one
  309. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> a problem with that is, this part of the code currently has no means for emitting Info-level messages
  310. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> it can only emit errors and warnings
  311. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: anyway, this is bug : http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12054
  312. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> of course feel free to comment there if you think anything I said there is wrong, or if you have anything to add
  313. # [10:00] <zcorpan> seems fine
  314. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> ok
  315. # [10:01] <karlcow> Does it send a warning when there are conflicting?
  316. # [10:02] <karlcow> s/there/they/
  317. # [10:02] * karlcow is going to tes
  318. # [10:02] <karlcow> test
  319. # [10:02] * karlcow is in typos day
  320. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> karlcow: it doesn't do anything currently
  321. # [10:05] <karlcow> the direct input does funny things
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  332. # [10:15] <annevk> email is down
  333. # [10:15] <annevk> bah
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  349. # [10:34] <karlcow> rha bad network here.
  350. # [10:35] <karlcow> MikeSmith: interesting thing with the meta and the validator
  351. # [10:35] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@mail.itoffshorenepal.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  352. # [10:35] <karlcow> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.la-grange.net%2F2011%2F03%2F03%2Ftest%2Fvalid-charset-02&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.2
  353. # [10:35] <karlcow> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.la-grange.net%2F2011%2F03%2F03%2Ftest%2Fvalid-charset&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.2
  354. # [10:36] <karlcow> the order of the meta is different but it always warn about one being wrong.
  355. # [10:36] <karlcow> which is the case
  356. # [10:36] <karlcow> but it doesn't warn there are two :) indeed
  357. # [10:37] <karlcow> I wonder if browsers pick the first one or the last one in the pile
  358. # [10:37] <zcorpan> karlcow: http://www.la-grange.net/2011/03/03/test/valid-charset has charset in http content-type
  359. # [10:37] <zcorpan> karlcow: which wins over meta
  360. # [10:38] <karlcow> ah interesting making a 3rd test
  361. # [10:38] <zcorpan> charset detection has already been researched and specified and implemented
  362. # [10:39] <karlcow> zcorpan: I would have thought that the meta/charset would win over meta/http
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  364. # [10:41] <karlcow> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.la-grange.net%2F2011%2F03%2F03%2Ftest%2Fvalid-charset-04&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.2
  365. # [10:41] <karlcow> here it says there are two
  366. # [10:41] <karlcow> "The character encoding specified in the HTTP header (utf-8) is different from the value in the <meta> element (iso-8859-1, utf-8). I will use the value from the HTTP header (utf-8) for this validation."
  367. # [10:41] <karlcow> or more exactly it sees there are two
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  371. # [10:42] <zcorpan> it doesn't seem to be validator.nu that emits that message
  372. # [10:49] <karlcow> nope, probably the additional layer of W3C validator for messages
  373. # [10:49] <hsivonen> Is my reading comprehension correct that the Chairs "accepted" http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5#Details but excluded more than 50% of its proposed edits?
  374. # [10:49] <hsivonen> thus effectively formulating a middle ground that wasn't fully represented by any one CP
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  377. # [10:50] <hsivonen> might have been easier to document which edits were upheld than to say which edits were excluded
  378. # [10:50] <annevk> I should have just stayed asleep
  379. # [10:50] <annevk> no email no news no nothing
  380. # [10:51] <annevk> although I guess I can concentrate more on this blog post on Web Notifications
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  382. # [10:52] <karlcow> hsivonen: there's a thread in between sam and steve about it http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/thread.html#msg5
  383. # [10:52] <hsivonen> karlcow: yeah, so it seems. thanks
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  385. # [10:53] <zcorpan> annevk: you mean there's nothing that can procrastinate real work?
  386. # [10:54] <karlcow> arf http://www.opera.com/press/releases/2011/03/03/
  387. # [10:54] <karlcow> >"I'm very concerned," says Standal. "Seventeen is very young, and I am not sure if, at that age, people are ready to use such an application. It's very fast, you know, and it has a lot of features. I think the download requirement should be at least 18."
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  389. # [10:55] <zcorpan> heh
  390. # [10:55] <annevk> zcorpan, well, trying to clean up my inbox is pretty much my job
  391. # [10:55] <annevk> it contains bug reports with specs
  392. # [10:56] <annevk> but when I do that I'd like to have up to date information
  393. # [10:56] * hsivonen wonders how Apple came up with 17
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  396. # [10:57] <hsivonen> aren't 15, 16, 18 and 21 more common special ages?
  397. # [10:57] <karlcow> yes very strange
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  399. # [10:58] <hsivonen> I wonder how the iUniverse works for young people and people without credit cards
  400. # [10:58] <jgraham> floor((15+16+18+21)/4) maybe
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  402. # [10:58] <hsivonen> I started using Apple products as a minor and without a credit card
  403. # [10:59] <karlcow> well I'm an adult (well maybe) and I do not use Mac AppStore specifically because of this credit card policy
  404. # [11:00] <karlcow> no shiny new tweetie for me
  405. # [11:00] <hsivonen> I was a hassle to get my dad pay for software using his credit cards back when vendors wanted stuff faxed to them
  406. # [11:00] <hsivonen> karlcow: don't you have a credit card or do you oppose to registering yours in order to download free stuff?
  407. # [11:01] <hsivonen> s/I /It
  408. # [11:01] <karlcow> I have credit cards but indeed you are forced to register to download free stuff
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  412. # [11:05] <hsivonen> I haven't installed any apps from the Mac App Store, either
  413. # [11:06] <hsivonen> I'd probably have more credit card activity with Apple if they got rid of the territorial restrictions on movie rentals
  414. # [11:06] <karlcow> to their credits, I think the territorial stupidity is coming from the movie industry.
  415. # [11:07] <hsivonen> karlcow: that's one possibility.
  416. # [11:07] <hsivonen> karlcow: it could also be coming from the laws the Finnish copyright lobby has gotten set up to favor Finnish copyright holders
  417. # [11:07] <annevk> yeah, I think it's that each country has their own silly laws
  418. # [11:07] <hsivonen> karlcow: or it could come from Apple (incorrectly) thinking that they have to have the movies translated to the local language before they can open the store
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  420. # [11:09] <karlcow> so many missed opportunities for the movie industry. Which reminds me that I should add that on my next talk on the topic.
  421. # [11:09] <hsivonen> but since Apple already sells music in Finland, they have to have had some kind of contact with the local copyright lobby anyway
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  423. # [11:09] <hsivonen> the book industry is super-sad, too
  424. # [11:09] <karlcow> yep
  425. # [11:10] <hsivonen> can't get a single e-Ink-based reader device that'd make sense for both English-language and Finnish-language books
  426. # [11:10] <karlcow> many people do not understand. At least there are new publishers riding on their own fully digital.
  427. # [11:10] <hsivonen> because the broadest selection for English uses Amazon's DRM and the broadest selection for Finnish uses Adobe's DRM
  428. # [11:10] <zcorpan> "CDATA sections must start with the character sequence U+003C U+0021 U+005B U+0043 U+0044 U+0041 U+0054 U+0041 U+005B (<![CDATA[)." is easier to read than:
  429. # [11:10] <zcorpan> "CDATA sections must start with the character sequence U+003C LESS-THAN SIGN, U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK, U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET, U+0043 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C, U+0044 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D, U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A, U+0054 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T, U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A, U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET (<![CDATA[)."
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  431. # [11:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that bit of the spec is putting specifiers ahead of implementors anyway. :-)
  432. # [11:11] <hsivonen> in other ways that is
  433. # [11:12] <karlcow> "CDATA sections must start with the character sequence "<![CDATA[" (U+003C U+0021 U+005B U+0043 U+0044 U+0041 U+0054 U+0041 U+005B)"
  434. # [11:12] <karlcow> even easier to read?
  435. # [11:12] <zcorpan> karlcow: yeah maybe
  436. # [11:13] <hsivonen> are Julian's CPs about slashes in charset all about the content-type sniffing algorithm?
  437. # [11:13] <hsivonen> or does he have CPs that affect HTML parsing?
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  440. # [11:21] <hsivonen> where can I locate the different proposals that are referred to by proposal numbers in the script execution thread?
  441. # [11:26] <hsivonen> oh. there's http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-125-objection-poll/
  442. # [11:26] <hsivonen> I guess I need to take the time to object to it.
  443. # [11:26] <hsivonen> I'd appreciate it if I could fix bugs instead of spending time to object to these
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  451. # [11:31] <zcorpan> opera has now removed uts22 charset alias matching, fwiw
  452. # [11:32] <annevk> in public builds?
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  456. # [11:33] <zcorpan> i thought i saw it in a changelog of a snapshot
  457. # [11:33] <zcorpan> don't remember which and it seems i can't access the desktop team site right now
  458. # [11:33] <karlcow> annevk: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2011/02/17/a-first-glimpse-at-barracuda
  459. # [11:33] <karlcow> "CORE-21407 remove support for UTS22 §1.4 charset alias matching"
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  461. # [11:34] <annevk> nice
  462. # [11:35] <karlcow> the changelog of Barracuda is quite impressive
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  464. # [11:38] <hsivonen> responded to http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-125-objection-poll/results
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  468. # [11:47] <karlcow> http://www.ecyrd.com/timeismoney/
  469. # [11:47] <karlcow> for people who loves meetings
  470. # [11:48] <zcorpan> annevk: i would imagine showing notification in-window first and having a button on the notification to opt-in to os-level notification for the origin
  471. # [11:48] <zcorpan> annevk: and an easy way to opt-out again
  472. # [11:50] <annevk> yeah, Hixie proposed that
  473. # [11:50] <annevk> well, that was his design
  474. # [11:50] <annevk> but apparently people want to know things upfront and such
  475. # [11:50] <annevk> but maybe we should just not cater to them?
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  477. # [11:51] <zcorpan> show a notification upfront? :)
  478. # [11:51] <annevk> yeah, but they didn't quite like that either
  479. # [11:51] <jgraham> Umm, that sounds quite complex
  480. # [11:51] <annevk> I forgot where this was discussed
  481. # [11:52] <annevk> and I rather have this be someone else their problem
  482. # [11:52] <jgraham> as you can't just hand off to an OS notification mechanism
  483. # [11:54] <annevk> rel=pingback unused?
  484. # [11:54] <annevk> has this person not heard of WordPress?
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  488. # [12:25] <zcorpan> apparently
  489. # [12:28] * zcorpan filed that bug btw
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  493. # [12:37] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like @opera has "space astronauts" instead of architecture astronauts working on network operations
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  495. # [12:39] <zcorpan> hmm?
  496. # [12:39] <benschwarz> adactio Whatup!
  497. # [12:40] <adactio> benschwarz: Nice work on HTML5 for developers — lovely stuff.
  498. # [12:40] <benschwarz> adactio—Thanks. I enjoyed seeing your tweet
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  500. # [13:05] <annevk> hsivonen, what do you mean?
  501. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: https://twitter.com/#!/opera/status/43254428245032961
  502. # [13:07] <annevk> :)
  503. # [13:09] <adactio> I have a niggling doubt about the definition of the the figure element that I'd like to get clarified http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/grouping-content.html#the-figure-element
  504. # [13:09] <adactio> "The figure element http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#represents some http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#flow-content, optionally with a caption, that is self-contained and is typically referenced as a single unit from the main flow of the document."
  505. # [13:10] <adactio> Is it indeed "the document" that we're talking about or is it actually "containing sectioning content"?
  506. # [13:10] <adactio> (I suspect it is indeed the whole document but I just want to make sure)
  507. # [13:15] <karlcow> I wonder if a space astronauts is like vocal singer
  508. # [13:15] <annevk> adactio, it's the whole document
  509. # [13:16] <adactio> annevk: Thanks. That's what I thought.
  510. # [13:16] <annevk> adactio, e.g. you might have a bunch of graphs in an appendix referenced from the main text
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  512. # [13:19] <hsivonen> regarding http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/formal-objection-status.html : Have the FOs to adopting HTML5 as the WGs "basis for review" been withdrawn?
  513. # [13:20] <annevk> oh right
  514. # [13:20] <annevk> I need to submit a CCP today
  515. # [13:21] <hsivonen> annevk: which ISSUE?
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  519. # [13:29] <annevk> 140
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  524. # [13:44] <hsivonen> I can't work out from Noah's CP if a "Conforming HTML5 Document" is allowed to have stuff in svg or math subtrees
  525. # [13:45] <hsivonen> also, I can't work out from Anne's current CCP if a "Conforming Document" is allowed to have stuff in svg or math subtrees
  526. # [13:45] <hsivonen> and with both CPs: which stuff?
  527. # [13:47] <zewt> zcorpan: seems like it may be important to be able to request permission to show os-level notifications in advance; the "ask on first use" permission model (of eg. geolocation) doesn't really apply, since by the time you need to show a notification, it's too late
  528. # [13:49] <hsivonen> does anyone remember what's a good summary of the aria:foo vs. aria-foo episode?
  529. # [13:49] <zcorpan> zewt: yeah
  530. # [13:49] <hsivonen> use case: explaining why smil:foo is bad for the exact same reasons as aria:foo
  531. # [13:51] <zewt> is anything actually using the web permissions spec yet?
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  533. # [13:52] <annevk> hsivonen, there's probably some emails on www-tag explaining that
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  535. # [13:54] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0244.html ?
  536. # [13:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that one explains that IBM threw its weight behind aria-foo but it doesn't explain the technical problem fully
  537. # [13:56] <hsivonen> looking at my own emails to www-tag, I don't see a nice summary among my own emails, either
  538. # [13:56] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0235.html
  539. # [13:56] <annevk> is mine, not very good though
  540. # [13:56] <annevk> but highlights some of the technical issues
  541. # [13:57] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. that's the best one so far
  542. # [13:58] <zewt> heh the quote in that mail
  543. # [13:58] <zewt> doesn't it basically say "if we spend some cost, we can change the cost/benefit ratio"
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  567. # [14:36] <jgraham> so why doesn't http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/858 work in webkit?
  568. # [14:39] <zewt> works in chrome
  569. # [14:42] <zcorpan> there's something weird with chrome: if i just load a saved livedomviewer, it doesn't run scripts until i edit the script contents in the input
  570. # [14:43] <zcorpan> security feature?
  571. # [14:45] <zewt> what version? seems normal in 9
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  573. # [14:46] <zewt> oh, it displays but I don't know if the onload is working
  574. # [14:46] <zcorpan> dev 11.0.686.1
  575. # [14:46] <zewt> ah yeah contentDocument is undefined
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  577. # [14:48] <zewt> looks like the data: URL isn't considered same-origin to the page itself
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  579. # [14:49] <zewt> Unsafe JavaScript attempt to access frame with URL data:text/html,iframe with data: uri from frame with URL http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?... Domains, protocols and ports must match.
  580. # [14:49] <bga_> yeah
  581. # [14:50] <bga_> in ff all ok
  582. # [14:50] <bga_> http: !== data: formally
  583. # [14:51] <bga_> zewt document.write is workaround
  584. # [14:52] <zewt> oddly doesn't work in FF3 (iframe is undefined); works in 4
  585. # [14:54] <bga_> btw this behavior is usefull for sandboxing
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  587. # [14:54] <zewt> not if it's not consistent, though
  588. # [14:55] <zewt> doesn't help sandboxing if it's not sandboxed in FF4
  589. # [14:55] <bga_> partial solution for webkit
  590. # [14:55] <zewt> i assume chrome is strict about it for some XSS-related reason or something like that
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  594. # [14:57] <bga_> htmlfile for IE but i havent discovered it deeply
  595. # [14:58] <jgraham> Right, I am kind of hoping that that is special magic for data: uris
  596. # [14:58] <jgraham> Like Opera and Firefox have
  597. # [14:58] <jgraham> Because making data: cross-origin is annoying
  598. # [14:59] <jgraham> and document.write doesn't work for my case
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  621. # [15:58] <annevk> answered 126, left 125 alone (would have had the same arguments as hsivonen)
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  625. # [16:03] <annevk> Hixie, PDF version link of the spec is broken?
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  637. # [16:18] <webr3> hsivonen, around?
  638. # [16:19] <hsivonen> webr3: yes
  639. # [16:20] <webr3> cool, re HTML+RDFa1.1 - would you be happier if there was /no/ mention at all of xmlns in that doc (html host lang for rdfa core)
  640. # [16:20] <webr3> or, mentioned only for processors for backwards compat with xhtml+rdfa1.0 with a text/html mime type
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  643. # [16:21] <hsivonen> webr3: I'd be happier if neither RDFa in HTML nor RDFa in XHTML relied on xmlns:foo
  644. # [16:22] <hsivonen> and compat with existing content was achieved by hardwiring property names
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  647. # [16:23] <webr3> we can't do that though sadly, there are too many to hard wire
  648. # [16:24] <webr3> we're stuck int hat we've done everything to get rid of it, but have several million docs out there with it to handle for bc
  649. # [16:24] <webr3> ack, moving topic in meeting - will pick up at a later date
  650. # [16:24] <hsivonen> webr3: don't those several million all use a handful of vocabs? Facebook, Google, Yahoo!, CC, DC?
  651. # [16:26] <webr3> we're moving to hard wire them (well for processors) - but doesn't handle all of them, will only handle some
  652. # [16:26] <webr3> and we have in charter the bc thing, so can't avoid
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  654. # [16:27] <webr3> we've made it so authors can forget movign forward, and we don't mention xmlns, /but/ the extra rules needed to handle bc for text/html are goign to make it prominent in that doc
  655. # [16:27] <hsivonen> webr3: charters are set by the people in the WG, so it's not really credible to point to charter as something that forces you
  656. # [16:27] <webr3> so 50+ mentions in HTML+RDFa1.1 - and 1 in rdfa core :|
  657. # [16:30] <Philip`> Instead of mentioning "xmlns" explicitly, you could discourage people from using it by calling it "U+0078 LATIN SMALL LETTER X, U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M, U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L, U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N, U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S"
  658. # [16:39] <karlcow> Philip`: not sure, that would encourage perverts
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  662. # [16:42] <annevk> zewt, hey, you around
  663. # [16:42] <annevk> zewt, http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/track/issues/35
  664. # [16:42] <annevk> it seems form submission works by dispatching a synthetic submit event
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  666. # [16:44] <annevk> it also seems that Ian described "form submission" in the wrong way
  667. # [16:44] <annevk> it is triggered by the submit event, but it is not defined that way
  668. # [16:46] * annevk filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12230
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  670. # [16:50] <zewt> looks like we came to the same conclusions he did
  671. # [16:51] <annevk> yeah, that's positive
  672. # [16:51] <annevk> I'm leaning towards only initEvent() resetting stuff
  673. # [16:51] <annevk> and then making the first argument of initEvent optional too
  674. # [16:52] <zewt> i think like you suggested, resetting in init*Event makes most sense--prevents the canceled flag from being set and then the cancel flag from being unset (inconsistent state), and avoids both the problems of early-reset and late-reset during dispatch
  675. # [16:52] <annevk> yup
  676. # [16:52] <annevk> and when we get fancy-objects I guess we should let initEvent take an object
  677. # [16:52] <annevk> instead of a series of arguments
  678. # [16:53] <annevk> so you can easily set all the properties
  679. # [16:53] <annevk> and then "deprecate" init*Event and not allow them on new event objects
  680. # [16:53] <zewt> the "set the properties manually" idea would be nice but that seems way too different from the current model where most event properties are readonly
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  682. # [16:53] <karlcow> http://robert.accettura.com/blog/2011/03/03/wanted-native-js-encryption/
  683. # [16:54] <annevk> zewt, oh yeah, we could do that too still...
  684. # [16:54] <annevk> zewt, they'd still be readonly while dispatching
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  686. # [16:54] <zewt> i think it'd need to ... yeah what you said
  687. # [16:54] <zewt> so you can't change them for trusted events, in particular
  688. # [16:54] <annevk> hmm, gotta run again; should be online at tenish though
  689. # [16:54] <zewt> it's tenish now, here :P
  690. # [16:54] <zewt> (okay, elevenish)
  691. # [16:54] <annevk> timezones
  692. # [16:56] <zewt> should also be defined that non-trusted submit events perform their default action, if it isn't (iirc only click is explicitly mentioned)
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  714. # [17:21] <Moo-_-_> karlcow: wanted native gzip too :)
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  747. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> if anybody is interested in doing some book writing on HTML5, please let me know. I have an acquisitions editor I can put you in contact with
  748. # [18:04] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  749. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> ping me here or DM me or e-mail me at mike@w3.org
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  776. # [18:19] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I totally read DM as "Dungeon Master"
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  778. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> heh
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  825. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> Can <object>'s contents be thought of as accessibility fallback? I'd dismissed that offhand earlier, but anne is bringing it up as a solution.
  826. # [18:57] * bfrohs thought that's what it was already
  827. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> I thought it was functionality fallback, but I may be drawing a distinction that doesn't exist.
  828. # [18:57] <jgraham> I thought this distinction was important for <video>?
  829. # [18:57] <jgraham> Or was that some other distinction?
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  832. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> I don't... I don't know. I'm confused now.
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  834. # [18:58] <jgraham> In any case I disagree with anne I think
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  839. # [18:58] <jgraham> <object> is worse than <canvas>
  840. # [18:58] <zewt> using canvas as an IMG seems questionable, since they're very different things (eg. progressive image rendering is very IMG-specific)
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  842. # [18:59] <jgraham> zewt: It seems natural to load an image with a declarative src and then draw on it
  843. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> jgraham: In that case you can just use <img> and then draw it in, though.
  844. # [18:59] <zewt> what would it mean? would it be immutable while it's loading (like an img), and only allow drawing ops after the load finishes?
  845. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> I'd be inclined to say "don't touch it until you see a load, because it'll explode".
  846. # [19:00] <zewt> (eg. act as if you stuck an img on top of the canvas, then blitted the img onto the canvas and deleted the image at onload)
  847. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Alternately, interacting with it between the time you set @src and when 'load' fires will abort the load.
  848. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> That counts as "explode"
  849. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> jgraham: If you could comment on why <object> is bad news, that would be nice. I can't formulate a forceful enough objection.
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  860. # [19:03] <jgraham> TabAtkins: For all the normal reasons that <object> is bad
  861. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> I'm insufficiently familiar with why <object> is bad, I've just picked up the religion.
  862. # [19:03] <zewt> a lot of stuff currently specced for img would seem to need to be defined for canvas (onload, "fully decodable" and so on)--i'd hope there's a simpler way
  863. # [19:03] <jgraham> It tries to do many things and none of them well
  864. # [19:04] <jgraham> So you don't get media-specific apis and so on
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  868. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> zewt: All those are already defined, so it would just be a matter of "do [this]".
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  870. # [19:05] <zewt> they're defined for images, canvas isn't complicated by them
  871. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Is there much in the way of media-specific APIs for <img>? I grok why we did <video>/<audio> instead of extending <object>.
  872. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> zewt: I don't understand what distinction you're trying to draw. All the algorithms are well-defined and can be trivially reused.
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  874. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> None of them depend on the name of the element.
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  880. # [19:07] <zewt> (let me reread your mail and think for a bit)
  881. # [19:07] <zewt> (not that I'll necessarily have any ideas)
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  883. # [19:07] <zewt> hmm... seems like the obvious, but impossible, solution would be to put the alternate data in the children of img; impossible since img can't have children, of course
  884. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> Yes, indeed. That's why I'm turning to the idea of using the *other* image element.
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  886. # [19:08] <zewt> my first impression would be to define another tag which is completely synonymous with <img> but has children, eg. <cimg>, sharing 99% of the spec and (preferably) the same object type--existing only to syntactically allow it to have descendents
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  890. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> Didn't somebody suggest doing that for <image>?
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  893. # [19:09] <zewt> don't know
  894. # [19:09] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: I think so
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  924. # [19:22] <zewt> another possibility would be something like <img src=foo.jpg id=foo><fallback for=foo>...</fallback>, which degrades a bit more nicely
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  926. # [19:23] <TabAtkins> That seems weirder.
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  928. # [19:23] <zewt> (modelling label, of course)
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  931. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> presumably <fallback> wouldn't render if the element that it was for rendered correctly?
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  933. # [19:27] <zewt> yeah, something like that--something like "hide this element by default, and show it if the target is in an error state"
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  936. # [19:28] -tomaw- [Global Notice] Hi all. As you probably noticed we're experiencing some connectivity issues currently. We're investigating options and will continue with any updates via wallops (/mode yournick +w to enable)
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  943. # [19:33] <zewt> degradation would require users to have a script to hide <fallback> when it's not supported, but image loading would be unchanged
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  974. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Hixie, could you get me sample execCommand() usage in the wild?
  975. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Probably I should also research some major WYSIWYG implementations.
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  1015. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Is there any strong technical objection against the 'beforeprint' event that IE fires?
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  1017. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> Google docs changes the rendering of the document for printing if you hit Ctrl+P or select Print from the in-app menu, but it can't tell if you hit Print from the browser's menu.
  1018. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> media=print
  1019. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> That doesn't let you run arbitrary JS.
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  1021. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Unless you can have matchMedia?
  1022. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Hmm...
  1023. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> I was about to mention that
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  1025. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> I suggested that we implement matchMedia instead.
  1026. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Now, back to writing an email summarizing a subtle technical issue with floats.
  1027. # [20:22] * Ms2ger screams at CSS2.1
  1028. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> I'd just scream at floats. They're defined SO BADLY.
  1029. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> I don't think anyone recognized at the time how complex they are.
  1030. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> They're not hard, if you use them as intended
  1031. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> No, they're always hard. You just don't realize it.
  1032. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Just don't start making float-based layouts
  1033. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> (Hi most of the web)
  1034. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Perfectly natural-looking use-cases turn out to be subtly odd
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  1036. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> dropcaps!
  1037. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> For example, I'm almost certain the spec doesn't cover the case exercised by: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/859
  1038. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> (Remove the / in front of the float to swap behavior.)
  1039. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> The float drops to the second line, some of the content following it jumps to the previous line, while some of the content that was previous on the same line as it drops to the line below it.
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  1041. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> s/previous/previously/
  1042. # [20:25] <zewt> sounds like some kind of dance routine
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  1044. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> I'm pretty certain I can find undefined things in most of CSS2.1
  1045. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> Even if they're not explicitly called out
  1046. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Oh, indeed.
  1047. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> Hence the scream
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  1087. # [21:34] <emersonvinicius> Hello everybody
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  1089. # [21:35] <emersonvinicius> sorry my english, but what the diference of spec whatwg instead w3c?
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  1091. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#is-this-html5? explains it better than I ever could
  1092. # [21:36] <emersonvinicius> Ms2ger: thx
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  1094. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Note to all who may be concerned: doing simultaneous alert()s in fifty or so iframes at once makes Firefox unhappy.
  1095. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> Anyone mind if I rewrite every sentence involving floats to a new, subtly backward-incompatible version that actually makes sense?
  1096. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> In what spec?
  1097. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> CSS
  1098. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> And no
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  1100. # [21:49] <zewt> at least in ff4 i'll get to stop killing the entire browser every time I inadvertently cause an alert loop. heh
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  1103. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but that doesn't help if you create fifty alerts from fifty separate iframes. Apparently the "don't show more" box doesn't work then.
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  1105. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> Sounds like a good rick-rolling situation.
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  1107. # [21:51] <zewt> i havn't squinted hard enough at the "pause" part of the spec, but I'd expect an alert (of any modal type) to pause scripts on the whole window, so you can only have one alert at a time even across iframes
  1108. # [21:51] <zewt> (i know that's the case with a single document; just not sure off-hand how that translates to iframes)
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  1113. # [21:53] <zewt> oh, since it pauses the event loop, and iframes are in the same event loop, it should pause all iframes in the window together
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  1120. # [21:59] <zewt> same bug as async scripts running during prompts, i guess
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  1129. # [22:11] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i dunno how much use it'll be but http://aupeople.com.au/1/aupeople2/read.php?tid=60099 is a random sample of some pages with "execCommand(" and "<script"
  1130. # [22:11] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i don't have an easy way to get pages that have JS files that use execCommand(, which unfortunately is going to be the majority of your interesting cases
  1131. # [22:11] <Hixie> AryehGregor: but e.g. i'm sure google docs uses it
  1132. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> Ah, okay.
  1133. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it's probably best to look at specific high-profile examples.
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  1135. # [22:12] <Hixie> yeah
  1136. # [22:12] <bfrohs> Google Docs, AFAIK, does not use execCommand anymore. They ran into a ton of inconsistencies with browsers and I believe they ended up creating their own API for it in javascript (create characters off-screen, take measurements, and move them into place).
  1137. # [22:13] <Hixie> hm, possible
  1138. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> Docs does EVERYTHING manually.
  1139. # [22:13] <Hixie> it'll still be interesting though as it'll be able to show the use cases that are important
  1140. # [22:14] <bfrohs> Yeah, that's very true.
  1141. # [22:14] <bfrohs> Gmail/hotmail/etc WYSIWYG editors as well.
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  1149. # [22:29] <annevk> I really like my idea of removing all initXXXEvent in favor of initEvent(object)
  1150. # [22:29] <annevk> well, removing all future initXXXEvent
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  1153. # [22:34] <jamesr__> i never understood why i have to create a mouse event and then init it before it's really a mouse event
  1154. # [22:34] <zewt> it just sets the properties, since most of them are read-only
  1155. # [22:35] <annevk> so yeah, the alternative would be removing all future initXXXEvent in favor of read-write attributes before and after dispatch
  1156. # [22:36] <annevk> but the initEvent() design is probably slightly better, as that also cleanly resets the "trusted flag" and maybe also the "propagation flag" and such if we decided to do that
  1157. # [22:36] <zewt> could deal with the getters problem by just defining it as operating on a copy, eg. var copy = {}; for(key in obj) { copy[key] = obj[key]; } but sorting the keys, which would be a simple way of defining how getters are called
  1158. # [22:36] <zewt> (doesn't work for structured clone, but works here since it's not recursive)
  1159. # [22:36] <annevk> heycam can sort that out :)
  1160. # [22:37] * ezoe_ is now known as ezoe
  1161. # [22:37] <annevk> though it should allow arbitrary nested objects, e.g. for CustomEvent
  1162. # [22:37] <zewt> having properties be writable when not in dispatch would be nicer, but sort of unusual behavior
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  1167. # [22:39] <zewt> wonder if there's any precedent for that--properties which are only conditionally read-only
  1168. # [22:39] <heycam> i like the idea of just writable properties on Events
  1169. # [22:39] <heycam> instead of 50-argument init methods
  1170. # [22:39] <zewt> either idea gets rid of the horrible init methods
  1171. # [22:39] <othermaciej> giant init methods suck
  1172. # [22:40] <othermaciej> otoh it is weird if you can alter the property of an event being dispatched by the UA
  1173. # [22:40] <othermaciej> I guess altering any properties would have to clear the "trusted" flag
  1174. # [22:40] <zewt> othermaciej: needs to be read-only when the dispatch flag is set
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  1177. # [22:41] <zewt> that'd be weird--setting a property would effectively imply preventDefault for most eventts, which would be confusing
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  1181. # [22:42] <annevk> heycam, the idea was to have initEvent(object) instead
  1182. # [22:42] <heycam> annevk, ah. that works too.
  1183. # [22:42] <annevk> writable attributes does not solve the problem of resetting some flags not exposed by attributes
  1184. # [22:42] <heycam> right, ok
  1185. # [22:42] <heycam> i wasn't really considering them
  1186. # [22:43] <annevk> e.g. the moment you modify you want the "trusted flag" to be false
  1187. # [22:43] <heycam> aha
  1188. # [22:43] <heycam> well that you could do
  1189. # [22:43] <annevk> defining that for each attribute would be kind of weird
  1190. # [22:43] <heycam> but you couldn't then reset it to true
  1191. # [22:43] <heycam> actually you never want that do you
  1192. # [22:43] <zewt> i think the current readonly flags in events should stay readonly (at least during dispatch), not silently clear trusted
  1193. # [22:43] <annevk> heycam, yeah, it would never be set back to true
  1194. # [22:44] <heycam> you could just make the writable attributes also set the internal trusted flags, it's easy enough
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  1196. # [22:44] * heycam doesn't mind either way
  1197. # [22:44] <annevk> yeah, it could be done, it just seems less intuitive
  1198. # [22:45] <annevk> zewt, this is for when a trusted event is dispatched and then modified after dispatch
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  1200. # [22:45] <zewt> annevk: right, I'm saying you shouldn't be able to modify it during dispatch at all
  1201. # [22:46] <annevk> I don't think I suggested otherwise
  1202. # [22:46] <zewt> <annevk> e.g. the moment you modify you want the "trusted flag" to be false <- modify when? if you modify outside of dispatch it doesn't matter (trusted will be reset on dispatch anyway)
  1203. # [22:48] <zewt> i guess i'm assuming the trusted flag is only important during dispatch
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  1205. # [22:50] <annevk> i want isTrusted to always be correct
  1206. # [22:50] <annevk> anyway, if not for the "trusted flag" it would also go for the "canceled flag"
  1207. # [22:50] <zewt> then initEvent(object) seems simpler--one entry point to clear the flag
  1208. # [22:50] <annevk> and for that using initEvent() is also better, as otherwise you'd have to set an attribute to reset it...
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  1210. # [22:52] <Hixie> yeah this CDATA paragraph is ridiculous
  1211. # [22:52] <Hixie> what was i thinking
  1212. # [22:53] <zewt> i was assuming there'd still be initEvent() for the base event flags, and only the additional properties would be writable
  1213. # [22:54] <zewt> eg. e.initEvent("click", true, true); e.offsetX = 10; ...
  1214. # [22:55] <Hixie> (please don't let events be modified during dispatch)
  1215. # [22:55] * Ms2ger tries to get Hixie back in the business of writing evil test cases
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  1220. # [23:02] <annevk> Hixie, some browsers allow it, but yeah, that's the plan
  1221. # [23:02] <annevk> zewt, eww
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  1223. # [23:05] <zewt> might be sort of handy that you can initEvent(object) with the same object multiple times (though of course you could implement that manually, copying properties from a saved object)
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  1226. # [23:13] <Hixie> nessy: so, it's likely going to be time to actually do this multitrack thing soon. it seems there's been lots of discussion about it in public-html; is there a summary anywhere of the current thinking?
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  1228. # [23:13] <nessy> Hi Hixie
  1229. # [23:13] <Hixie> in particular, list of use cases, implementation constraints, anything like that?
  1230. # [23:14] <nessy> try this: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Media_API
  1231. # [23:14] <nessy> I'll be working with Eric Carlson on a change proposal
  1232. # [23:15] <nessy> the proposal that Microsoft did is too limited and only restricted to audio tracks
  1233. # [23:16] <Hixie> that page is great
  1234. # [23:17] <Hixie> i considered reopening http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9452 but i wasn't sure whether that was appropriate or not
  1235. # [23:17] <Hixie> since we had agreed to assign it to the tf
  1236. # [23:17] <Hixie> and then it got closed and escalated while assigned to the tf
  1237. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Okay, deleteContents() is probably finished. Hurrah.
  1238. # [23:20] <annevk> zewt, I don't see why we'd disallow that
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  1240. # [23:21] <zewt> just mean, one (minor) handy side-effect of the init(object) approach
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  1242. # [23:22] <annevk> ah k
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  1244. # [23:24] <annevk> once we have that initEvent(object) stuff we could also make that automatic
  1245. # [23:24] <annevk> document.createEvent(interface, initObject)
  1246. # [23:24] <nessy> yeah, I think they worked through all the remaining open bugs and just escalated them to issues - though some slipped the cracks - I don't claim to understand
  1247. # [23:24] <annevk> or maybe new MouseEvent(initObject) at some point... dunno though
  1248. # [23:25] <annevk> would be a lot of additional things to test for somewhat minor benefit
  1249. # [23:25] <annevk> pretty easy to make these things way more complicated than they need to be because the problems are so simple
  1250. # [23:25] <nessy> Hixie: you can either try and work through it now and understand all the options etc, or you can wait until the call for change proposals closes and you have some more thought-through proposals to work through
  1251. # [23:25] <zewt> doesn't seem very important to have a lot of redundant shortcuts for event init
  1252. # [23:26] <nessy> the main problem we still haven't looked at is how to actually render all this stuff - and how to address it through CSS
  1253. # [23:26] <nessy> that's not in that wiki page
  1254. # [23:27] <Hixie> nessy: well i don't want to step on any toes here. If the bug was filed today, I would probably just address it, but then there wouldn't be pending CPs and whatnot.
  1255. # [23:27] <zewt> personally I'm not crazy about the separate fireEvent() suggestion for the same reason--doesn't seem worth the redundancy
  1256. # [23:28] <nessy> Hixie: no toes to step on - people are looking for a solution and are prepared to put in effort to help get there - but we all want the best possible outcome
  1257. # [23:28] <Hixie> nessy: I don't want to have people feel like they have worked on something and then have me just come along and change it, but i also don't want y'all to work on something if you'd rather i just went ahead and did my thing like i usually do :-)
  1258. # [23:28] <nessy> it's not a simple task though, so if you have a good solution, it would be awesome to push it!
  1259. # [23:28] <annevk> zewt, right, I think initEvent(object) is probably the simplest approach to something sane here
  1260. # [23:28] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, how about you write tests for intersectsNode, then I can get it into Gecko ;)
  1261. # [23:29] <zewt> yeah
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  1263. # [23:29] <nessy> how about you do your thing like you usually do, but put it forward as a change proposal rather than pushing it into the spec?
  1264. # [23:29] <Hixie> nessy: well i don't have anything right now, but i'm sure i would come up with something (maybe good, maybe not) if i were to go through that wiki page
  1265. # [23:29] <annevk> zewt, the advantages are no crazy initXXXEvent methods, it makes event interfaces extensible, and does not change much about the current model
  1266. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, maybe I'll take a look tomorrow.
  1267. # [23:29] <Hixie> nessy: i hate writing CPs
  1268. # [23:29] <Hixie> nessy: they take 10 times longer than writing spec text
  1269. # [23:29] <nessy> just add another option to the wiki page then?
  1270. # [23:29] <nessy> or engage in the discussion to state which option(s) you prefer?
  1271. # [23:30] <nessy> it's good to come up to speed so we can shoot down the bad change proposals/options early IMHO
  1272. # [23:30] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-41-83.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  1273. # [23:30] * Ms2ger will be out for the weekend
  1274. # [23:31] * Joins: kjayl (~IceChat77@24-204-3-242.networkip.net)
  1275. # [23:31] <Hixie> nessy: what is the direction you and eric are likely to go in for your CP?
  1276. # [23:31] <nessy> that's the hard question
  1277. # [23:31] <nessy> Eric submitted option 8 and I think that's the main one he is after
  1278. # [23:32] <nessy> but we have already found that option 1 will be necessary in addition so we can make adaptive HTTP streaming work
  1279. # [23:32] <Hixie> looking at this i think a variation on 6 is probably what i'd mainly propose
  1280. # [23:32] <nessy> and we have found cases where a total replacement of the resource is necessary, which could be done with option 6 or 7
  1281. # [23:32] <Hixie> anything that messes with <track> is flat-out wrong since video/audio tracks have nothing to do with text tracks, and as something near the top says, anything that messes with <source> is a nightmare in waiting
  1282. # [23:33] <Hixie> however, 6 wouldn't really help with multiple tracks in one file
  1283. # [23:33] <nessy> Philip is mostly for 6 or 7
  1284. # [23:34] <Hixie> i imagine if i were to try to spec this it'd be a hybrid of all of the above plus some more out-of-the-box thinking
  1285. # [23:34] <Hixie> e.g. with a controller object as the master and all the <Video>s as slaves
  1286. # [23:34] <nessy> well, the discussion about 8 is on the list - you should engage with Eric/David about that, because they are very keen on 8
  1287. # [23:34] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  1288. # [23:34] <nessy> haha, that's option 4 - and very smil-like
  1289. # [23:35] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.118.128) (Quit: nn)
  1290. # [23:35] <Hixie> it's similar to 4
  1291. # [23:35] <Hixie> and similar to 6
  1292. # [23:35] <Hixie> probably wouldn't be an element though
  1293. # [23:36] <nessy> interesting!
  1294. # [23:36] <nessy> throw it in the wiki and add it as a proposal to the email thread?
  1295. # [23:36] <Hixie> i'd have to actually spend the time to consider this, i'm just making stuff up here
  1296. # [23:37] <nessy> that's how we all started...
  1297. # [23:37] * Joins: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  1298. # [23:38] <Hixie> whenever i make proposals without thinking them through, they end up implemented and with legacy content before i have a chance to correct them
  1299. # [23:38] <Hixie> so...
  1300. # [23:38] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.240.90) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1301. # [23:38] <nessy> I actually quite like option 8 right now - it leaves the main a/v in place as the controlling entity and the others are clearly dependent
  1302. # [23:38] <nessy> but I'm, keen to see yours!
  1303. # [23:39] <Hixie> option 8 is a non-starter imho, it messes with <track> in a nonsensical way
  1304. # [23:39] <Hixie> it's unclear to me whether external sign-language tracks need to be supported without JS, and what the use case is for inline embedded videos being controlled from JS.
  1305. # [23:39] <Hixie> are there same pages anywhere?
  1306. # [23:39] <Hixie> sample
  1307. # [23:39] <Hixie> not same
  1308. # [23:40] <nessy> let me see - I stared a collection some time ago...
  1309. # [23:41] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  1310. # [23:41] <nessy> how's this http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Media_Rendering
  1311. # [23:41] <nessy> incomplete, but has some ideas..
  1312. # [23:41] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  1313. # [23:42] * Quits: bga_|away (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1314. # [23:43] <Hixie> we really should look at how people do this today in more detail before we write proposals
  1315. # [23:44] <nessy> mostly sign language is picture-in-picture or two videos next to each other
  1316. # [23:45] <nessy> there's not that much more options anyway
  1317. # [23:45] <nessy> I'm thinking about rendering that we could render all the active video tracks in a video into the single viewport and have two rendering modes: a tiling approach and a picture-in-picture approach
  1318. # [23:46] <Hixie> yeah but do people use two videos? one video with two tracks?
  1319. # [23:46] <Hixie> do they let people control both videos separately?
  1320. # [23:46] <nessy> on modern TV all the time
  1321. # [23:46] <Hixie> etc
  1322. # [23:46] <nessy> actually, there's a third display mode, usually used on tV
  1323. # [23:47] * Joins: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec)
  1324. # [23:47] * Parts: bfrohs (~bfrohs@smtp.forewordinternal.com)
  1325. # [23:47] <nessy> the main video is large and a couple of other views are tiled down the side
  1326. # [23:47] <nessy> when you select one of the smaller tiles, it becomes the big one and swaps position with the big one
  1327. # [23:48] <Hixie> TVs aren't really good as a precedent here since they have very different interaction modalities and constraints
  1328. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> I've never seen that used on tv.
  1329. # [23:48] <nessy> my uncle had a TV like that in Germany 5 years ago - I was quite impressed - probably had a set-top box
  1330. # [23:48] * Quits: k0rnel (~k0rnel@krtko.org) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  1331. # [23:49] <nessy> typically used for sports games to allow people to have different perspectives
  1332. # [23:49] <zewt> annevk: re "Conflicts" - it sort of makes sense to require initEvent to be called, since in practice you probably don't want to take the default and dispatch an event with e.type == ""
  1333. # [23:49] <nessy> there is only a single timeline though and only one control
  1334. # [23:50] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  1335. # [23:50] <zewt> (which I assume is why DOM Events disallows e.type == ""; that seems to be what's checked when requiring initEvent to be called, so it doesn't need a separate "has been initialized" flag)
  1336. # [23:51] <annevk> zewt, what does DOM3Events say should happen when it is not called? what does it say should happen .type returns? or .eventPhase returns? lots of things are undefined
  1337. # [23:51] <annevk> zewt, I'm not sure putting arbitrary restrictions in place really makes sense
  1338. # [23:51] <zewt> not sure; I'm looking more at browser behavior than the spec
  1339. # [23:52] <annevk> I'm also not sure why he thinks event.type can be null in D3E
  1340. # [23:52] <zewt> it can't be, in either browser I tried
  1341. # [23:52] <annevk> e.g. D3E says it has to be at least one character and has multiple places say it cannot be an "invalid string"
  1342. # [23:52] <zewt> (by spec I don't know)
  1343. # [23:53] * Joins: k0rnel (~k0rnel@krtko.org)
  1344. # [23:53] <zewt> (predictably, I havn't read the entire DOM Events spec :)
  1345. # [23:53] <annevk> would be cool to know what Jacob thought about how the spec was written
  1346. # [23:54] <annevk> but I should sleep some and then read everything again and then reply
  1347. # [23:56] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1348. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> annevk: Re using <object> for inline fallback on images, <object> is horrible for video and audio, but I'm not sure if there are any APIs we have to worry about for static images that <object> won't expose.
  1349. # [23:57] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@p19029-ipngn1601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: kennyluck)
  1350. # [23:58] <zewt> seems generally unpleasant to have people start putting images in object tags...
  1351. # [23:58] <annevk> using <object> if you want rich fallback is the argument we have been using for years
  1352. # [23:58] <annevk> if it is invalid I would appreciate to learn why, as it works fine for me
  1353. # [23:59] <nessy> TabAtkins: I've found something similar: http://gigaom.com/video/att-lets-cubs-fans-choose-their-own-camera-angle/ - though this brings in different channels rather than tracks of the same video
  1354. # [23:59] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1355. # [23:59] * Quits: kjayl (~IceChat77@24-204-3-242.networkip.net) (Quit: Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs.)
  1356. # [23:59] * Joins: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  1357. # Session Close: Fri Mar 04 00:00:00 2011

The end :)