/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-04 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Mar 04 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <annevk> whatwg.org uses <object> for an image by the way
# [00:02] <TabAtkins> nessy: Ah, that's a cool use-case.
# [00:02] <Hixie> <object> works pretty well for images
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# [00:04] <jamesr__> i still think the 'fallback-ish' behavior for <canvas> is bizarre
# [00:06] <zewt> FWIW, object doesn't have naturalHeight/naturalWidth, or complete (doesn't define the "available" state like <img> does) ... not necessarily critical for the cases where you want rich fallback (eg. you're probably not blitting it into a canvas)
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# [00:07] <Hixie> jamesr__: how would you do it instead?
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# [00:08] <zewt> to sum up my earlier two suggestions, 1: have another tag, eg. <cimg>, which is identical to <img> but allows descendants, and put fallback data there; 2: have a <fallback for=id> tag (like <label>) which is only shown if the given id is not
# [00:08] <fantasai> hsivonen: just wanted to note that we just ran into a HTML parsing issue with </! starting a tag sequence
# [00:08] <fantasai> hsivonen: in case that's an interesting test case for you
# [00:09] <annevk> zewt, neither is backwards compatible
# [00:09] <zewt> the <canvas> suggestion isn't, either
# [00:10] <annevk> well I'm not really considering that one either
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# [00:10] <zewt> <fallback> can be made to degrade sensibly with a little scripting help, at least
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# [00:10] <annevk> with scripting everything can be made to work...
# [00:10] <zewt> (eg. check if HTMLFallbackElement exists; if not, add fallback { display: none; })
# [00:10] <nessy> TabAtkins: here's one with multiple angles on a single game http://www.sportsgeekery.com/2010/10/28/watch-tnts-nba-games-online-with-overtime-extra/
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# [00:11] <annevk> lets all look at what we can safely remove instead :)
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# [00:26] <nessy> Hixie: I added a few more examples to http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Media_Rendering
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# [00:28] <Hixie> i don't understand the third one down
# [00:28] <Hixie> there only seems to be one video on the page mentioned by the blog post cited on that page, the sign-language one
# [00:30] <Hixie> the firstone seems to just be single standable videos with one track
# [00:31] <Hixie> the second one seems to just be two unrelated videos rendered on top of each other
# [00:32] <Hixie> for the fourth one, the olympics thing, it's unclear to me what the requirements are. It looks like just four unsynchronised live streams, which we can do today. If they're to be synchronised, I guess that's more like proposals 4/6 -- separate <video>s that are slaved to each other.
# [00:33] <Hixie> unclear to me what the 5th is showing.
# [00:33] <Hixie> or the 6th
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# [00:34] <Hixie> the 7th is burnt-in.
# [00:34] <Hixie> presumably pretty much whatever we do will support the equivalent rendering with two tracks, so long as you can sync it somehow.
# [00:36] <Hixie> 8th is the same as the 2nd, it seems
# [00:37] <Hixie> dunno what the 9th is.
# [00:37] <Hixie> 10th is like the 7th.
# [00:37] <Hixie> 11th too
# [00:39] <Hixie> 12th is like the 4th, assuming they're synchronised. four streams slaved to each other with one set of controls.
# [00:42] <Hixie> 13th is weird, looks like multiple unsynchronised video streams in some incarnations, and more like the slaved case in others.
# [00:43] <Hixie> the last one is more like the olymics thing again
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# [00:43] <Hixie> so in conclusion it looks like we have the following kinds of use cases here:
# [00:43] <Hixie> 1. unsynchronised video streams next to each other (possible today with <video>)
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# [00:44] <Hixie> 2. an additional track, either in a separate file or in the same file, providing a sign-language overlay, which must be synchronised to the primary track, and presumably which can be turned off and on.
# [00:44] <Hixie> 3. multiple independent tracks that need to be played along the same timeline
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# [00:45] <zewt> (do deaf people seriously use sign-language overlays? heh)
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# [00:46] <Hixie> zewt: some do. There's a lot of variety in the deaf community from what I understand, but certainly there are those that use sign-language overlays.
# [00:47] <zewt> that's ... odd, heh
# [00:47] <Hixie> why?
# [00:47] <zewt> hard to think of why you'd want sign language instead of text, since I don't imagine you can watch someone signing while actually watching whatever video contains whatever's being signed
# [00:47] <AryehGregor> I'd imagine you could watch sign-language as well as printed text.
# [00:48] <zewt> text you can read in half a second and go back to the video
# [00:48] <Hixie> sign-language is much denser than text, and you end up seeing it out of the corner of your eye
# [00:48] <AryehGregor> Is the sign language we're talking about here animated, or some type of sequence of symbols?
# [00:48] <Hixie> neither, it's live action of someone signing
# [00:48] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
# [00:48] <AryehGregor> Sign language is developed instinctively, like speech and unlike writing.
# [00:49] <AryehGregor> Sign languages reliably arise spontaneously whenever you have a critical mass of deaf children and no local sign language for them to learn.
# [00:49] <zewt> possibly a similar use case would be animated karaoke tracks of the sort fansubs like to use, which are way outside of webvtt's scope
# [00:49] <AryehGregor> Whereas writing was an invention that was invented independently maybe like three times.
# [00:49] <AryehGregor> And alphabetic writing was invented once.
# [00:49] <AryehGregor> In all of human history.
# [00:49] <zewt> having a separate baked video track overlaid on top of the video would be a lot nicer (in theory) then baking them right into the video
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# [00:50] <AryehGregor> So maybe sign language is much easier to follow than writing, if you grew up speaking it.
# [00:50] <zewt> well, signing is more like speech than writing, and speech arises on its own too
# [00:50] <aho> i imagine it's more like having someone talking to you
# [00:50] <aho> instead of reading something
# [00:51] <zewt> (one practical problem with karaoke overlays is video codecs generally don't support alpha, or if they do underneith it's never implemented)
# [00:52] <aho> what's the new name of websrt again? :>
# [00:52] <zewt> webvtt
# [00:52] <zewt> (don't know why it was renamed, much harder to remember, heh)
# [00:52] <nessy> there's also signwriting, btw - I think in the long run that has the most potential to become a machine-readable sign language
# [00:53] <nessy> Hixie: I will make some notes on the examples
# [00:53] <aho> i really wonder why they didn't go with something more straightforward... like... y'know... websubtitles :>
# [00:54] <nessy> in general, your conclusion seems sound though
# [00:54] <aho> or websubs lol
# [00:54] <nessy> I took those examples also so we can see how multiple tracks can be displayed
# [00:55] <Hixie> aho: webvtt has the advantage of an obvious filename extension (.vtt) that isn't used by anyone already (unlike .sub)
# [00:55] <nessy> vtt = video text track - not that bad IMHO
# [00:55] <Hixie> also "sub"-anything is someone misleading since we do more than subtitles
# [00:55] <aho> still kinda hard to remember
# [00:56] <zewt> we'll get used to it :)
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# [00:56] <zewt> better than .ASS
# [00:56] <aho> oh yea, i remember that discussions from many moons ago... going with some "ASS" based name would have been fun :>
# [00:56] <nessy> lol
# [00:57] <zewt> don't know any particular discussion, just another common sub format :P
# [00:58] <aho> basically, someone made a subset of aas and the idea was to call it small ass or something like that :>
# [00:58] <aho> WebAss would have been fine, too
# [00:59] <aho> haha
# [00:59] * aho is easily amused
# [01:01] <nessy> (Hixie: re third one down - I was simply looking for an example where the sign language video would sit in same size as main video next to it, but I couldn't find an image better than this - maybe I am mistaken to have thought I'd seen that before)
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# [01:02] <zewt> sign language track - as a separate element or as an overlay?
# [01:03] <Hixie> nessy: that's why it's important to have actual examples. :-)
# [01:03] <zewt> (of course you can do both by overlaying two <video> elements, but that's sort of the wrong layer in general I'd think)
# [01:03] <Hixie> zewt: that's what we're discussing
# [01:03] <aho> zewt, would allow resizing and moving it around though
# [01:03] <nessy> Hixie: you're right - I might remove that one and add your comments on all, so we keep track (not just in the bug tracker ;-)
# [01:03] <Hixie> nessy: one use case that hasn't been talked about here that i'm interested in is playing two videos back synchronised but at different offsets
# [01:03] <aho> full screen would be f-ed though :l
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# [01:04] <Hixie> nessy: something like the "double youtube" thing but where you can pick the synchronisation point
# [01:04] <zewt> yeah, if you're on a TV you probably want something like PIP for that, not side-by-side
# [01:04] <nessy> aho: when we attach full screen to page elements, it's possible still
# [01:04] <aho> ah yea... there was that thing
# [01:05] <nessy> Hixie: is that use case not just a toy? I'm worried we end up with SMIL ...
# [01:05] <aho> does any browser support it today?
# [01:05] <zewt> programmatic fullscreen doesn't exist yet at all afaik
# [01:05] <aho> so far i've only seen very slow video fsm
# [01:05] <aho> (full screen mode, not flying spaghetti monster)
# [01:05] <nessy> aho, not yet - but it's being discussed
# [01:06] <zewt> well yeah all (afaik) video implementations right now are really bad at fullscreening, presumably that'll get fixed
# [01:06] <Hixie> nessy: toys are good too :-)
# [01:06] <Hixie> nessy: it's the kind of thing that would be good to support if it can be done in a way that doesn't add complexity
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# [01:06] <zewt> Hixie: being able to adjust the offset is also useful to, for example, quickly adjust off-sync audio or captions
# [01:07] <Hixie> yeah, that too
# [01:07] <nessy> yeah, but then we get those that say that we need to be able to arbitrarily align any video track and audio tracks and have choices between subparts of them etc
# [01:07] <nessy> that really is SMIL and I would prefer to keep such stuff to JavaScript
# [01:07] <Hixie> nessy: e.g. if we have a controller + slaves model, you can imagine a model where the controller doesn't have a timeline, it just controls the velocity (and pauses everything whenever any of them stall), which would let you do all of the above with very minimal additional complexity
# [01:08] <Hixie> nessy: the only change to the current model would be that instead of advancing whenever you're potentially playing, you advance when the controller says to
# [01:08] <nessy> interesting - I'd like to see that specced a bit more
# [01:09] <Hixie> nessy: or maybe even you just multiply the playback rate by he controller's rate, and the controller sets its rate to zero whenever anyone is stalled (or when the controller is paused)
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# [01:10] <nessy> I personally actually don't think the playback of the main resource should be stalled because of subresources
# [01:10] <nessy> or at least you should have the possibility to not stall
# [01:10] <nessy> e.g. maybe I care about seeing sign language, but not enough to want my movie to be stalled when it falls behind a bit
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# [01:12] <zewt> the whole "seeking to keyframe" thing might be tricky with multiple video tracks, since they won't necessarily keyframe together
# [01:12] <zewt> (very unlikely unless specially authored)
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# [01:13] <Hixie> nessy: well you definitely don't want it to fall behind a bit
# [01:13] <nessy> no, just drop it when out of sync
# [01:14] <Hixie> nessy: you might want it to just be muted for a bit while the UA buffers, but in most cases if you need to buffer, and you don't, you'll just never have that track again.
# [01:14] <Hixie> unless it just skips ahead and starts buffering in the future, and then rejoins later
# [01:14] <Hixie> which seems like very confusing behaviour.
# [01:14] <Hixie> i can't really imagine wanting my audio track to do that, so i don't see why a sign-language user would want that to happen to theirs.
# [01:14] <nessy> I would prefer that - but maybe I am a strange user
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# [01:15] <nessy> I am concerned about mixed viewing environments
# [01:15] <nessy> when a deaf person watches something with non-deaf people and the sign language track keeps stalling
# [01:16] <Hixie> AryehGregor: can you give me a tl;dr on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11912 ?
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# [01:16] <Hixie> nessy: the web is mostly a single-viewing environment.
# [01:17] <nessy> hmm, for now maybe
# [01:17] <Hixie> nessy: the mixed-viewing environments tend to have reliable video streams.
# [01:17] <AryehGregor> Hixie, he wants to improve HTTP auth in a couple of obvious ways, allowing you to use it via forms and allowing the site to log you out.
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# [01:17] <AryehGregor> I got into a long argument with him about whether HTTP auth is worth salvaging, but it didn't relate to his actual suggestions.
# [01:17] <Hixie> nessy: but in any case, if you're watching something with someone who's blind, and the video needs to buffer but we still have the audio, do you want the video to cut out? or do you want it to pause?
# [01:17] <Hixie> AryehGregor: k
# [01:18] <Hixie> AryehGregor: thanks
# [01:18] <nessy> depends on how much is happening on the video
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# [01:19] <nessy> but yeah, I guess the main use case is that of keeping in sync and stalling when one active track stalls
# [01:20] <zewt> multiple people watching a video seems normal enough, but I'd think if the sign track keeps dropping out, the deaf person's going to be even more annoyed (than the non-deaf people would be if it stalled the whole video)
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# [02:56] <nessy> say, has anyone ever considered introducing an attribute such as @rows onto the <select> element?
# [02:57] <TabAtkins> What would it do?
# [02:57] <nessy> I am baffled that there is no way to limit the number of options that are displayed in a <select> for scrollbars
# [02:57] <TabAtkins> <select multiple size>?
# [02:58] <AryehGregor> Or just <select size>.
# [02:58] <AryehGregor> E.g., <select size=6>.
# [02:58] <AryehGregor> Or whatever.
# [02:58] <TabAtkins> Ah, indeed, I didn't realize you could use @size on a plain select.
# [02:58] <TabAtkins> Still ugly as sin.
# [02:59] <nessy> no, @size gives you the number of options that are displayed and turns the option drop-down off
# [03:00] <nessy> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/570642/height-of-an-html-select-box-dropdown
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# [03:00] <nessy> this part:
# [03:00] <nessy> the height needed to show (x) entries (with scrollbars to see remaining)
# [03:00] <nessy> (20 in Firefox & Chrome, 30 in IE6,7,8, 16 for Opera 10, 14 for Opera 11,
# [03:00] <nessy> 22 for Safari 4, 18 for Safari 5, 11 in IE5.0,5.5)
# [03:01] <nessy> that number of option rows that are displayed is fixed and browser dependent and there is no way to change it
# [03:01] <TabAtkins> @size is the correct answer, you just have to convince browser to make it not look like *ass*.
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# [03:01] <nessy> but @size turns it from a drop-down to a list
# [03:02] <TabAtkins> That's not a necessary effect, it's just how browsers traditionally present it.
# [03:03] <nessy> but since all browsers do that, it's the de-facto standard
# [03:03] <TabAtkins> Considering how horrible it looks, though, I suspect not too many people are actually using it.
# [03:03] <TabAtkins> (I could be wrong.)
# [03:03] <TabAtkins> This is something we can test.
# [03:04] <nessy> so we need a way to convince the browsers to keep displaying it as a drop-down even when @size is given
# [03:04] <nessy> I guess
# [03:05] <nessy> hmm… Firefox even seems to completely ignore @size (testing here: http://www.w3schools.com/TAGS/tryit.asp?filename=tryhtml_option)
# [03:05] <zewt> there's no size there
# [03:06] <nessy> @size is specified to be "the number of options to show to the user" which is not equivalent to restricting the drop-down length, actually
# [03:06] <nessy> zewt: no, but it's simple to add it manually
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# [03:06] <zewt> but it doesn't ignore it when I add it
# [03:06] <nessy> and see the effect
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# [03:07] <nessy> if I set it to size=2, then I get all four options, but as a list rather than a drop-down
# [03:07] <zewt> i set it to 5 and it shows all 4 with one empty spot
# [03:07] <TabAtkins> size=4 is probably the minimum size
# [03:07] <AryehGregor> Hixie, in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11912, to be fair, the reporter did actually convince me that there was a not-totally-theoretical use-case in which HTTP auth was inherently more secure than cookie auth, albeit slightly.
# [03:07] <TabAtkins> chrome does the same.
# [03:07] <zewt> if i set it to 2 i see 2 options
# [03:07] <nessy> same in safari
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# [03:07] <zewt> haha but
# [03:07] <zewt> if i set it to 5, i get 5 rows with a disabled scrollbar
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# [03:08] <zewt> if i set it to 2, i get 2 rows ... and no scrollbar
# [03:08] <nessy> ups: I mixed up my chrome and firefox
# [03:08] <AryehGregor> But "not totally theoretical" I mean "He said it applies to his application, but it doesn't apply to any app I know about, because you'd have to be incredibly obsessive about separation of privilege for it to be relevant."
# [03:08] <AryehGregor> s/But/By/
# [03:08] <zewt> so it shows a scrollbar if it doesn't need one, and doesn't show a scrollbar if it does need one
# [03:08] <nessy> actually, firefox is the only one that actually does limit the length
# [03:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: what was the use case?
# [03:09] <zewt> nessy: same behavior in Opera as FF
# [03:10] <nessy> yup, Opera and FF behave the specced way, I guess
# [03:10] <AryehGregor> Hixie, the guy had a system where the application didn't actually have access to the database. The only way for it to access the database was using the users' actual username and login.
# [03:10] <AryehGregor> Username and password.
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# [03:10] <nessy> so webkit only changes from drop-down to list display without actually limiting the size
# [03:10] <zewt> webkit (testing in chrome) will extend but not scroll (which again makes it bizarre that it shows a disabled scrollbar)
# [03:10] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: We need to not worry about that ever.
# [03:10] <AryehGregor> So every application-level user had a corresponding database user, and the database user had only the rights to access stuff that the application user had.
# [03:10] <AryehGregor> And so if the browser submits the password every time, the app just uses it for that request, to access the database, then throws it away.
# [03:10] <nessy> so, I would say that's a webkit bug
# [03:11] <nessy> but it's also a spec bug to not have a possibility to remain in drop-down mode and limit the length
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# [03:11] <AryehGregor> But if you use cookies, you'd force the application to remember the user's password somehow, so an application server compromise would result in database server compromise too, even for users who aren't actually executing requests at that particular moment.
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# [03:11] <AryehGregor> I thought it was cool that the guy actually designed such a system that he apparently uses.
# [03:11] <AryehGregor> Or at least he works with such a system, dunno if he designed it.
# [03:12] <AryehGregor> But, uh, not exactly mainstream practice.
# [03:13] <zewt> (AryehGregor: not necessarily useful to that person, but if I really needed that, I'd probably do something along the lines of storing an encrypted password in the cookie with a key on the server, so the server can decrypt it for each request and then throw it away)
# [03:13] <AryehGregor> Neat idea.
# [03:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: how did he add new users to the database?
# [03:14] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I didn't ask. I'm guessing this is some workplace thing, and the database is getting the user info from LDAP or some other external authentication source.
# [03:14] <AryehGregor> So people are probably added by hand by a sysadmin when they first come there, or something.
# [03:14] <Hixie> i can't actually imagine a scenario where i could use that kind of technique
# [03:15] <AryehGregor> In principle, though, you could have open login.
# [03:15] <Hixie> unless his database has per-row ACLs or something
# [03:15] <AryehGregor> It's PostgreSQL.
# [03:15] <AryehGregor> Which, yes, can have extremely granular access controls.
# [03:15] <AryehGregor> I suspect a nontrivial amount of the application logic was implemented as stored procedures or such on the database server.
# [03:15] <Hixie> well anyway
# [03:15] <AryehGregor> So users without direct access to particular rows might still have access to functions that would let them read or modify them indirectly.
# [03:16] <Hixie> you can do that without http auth
# [03:16] <Hixie> in fact most systems i write send the password and username along with every request too
# [03:16] <Hixie> they just use xhr :-)
# [03:16] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but that doesn't work for regular web browsing.
# [03:16] <Hixie> "regular"?
# [03:16] <Hixie> you mean web 1.0 ?
# [03:16] <AryehGregor> :)
# [03:17] <AryehGregor> "something that works in lynx"
# [03:17] <TabAtkins> I don't think we're designing the web for lynx.
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# [03:17] <AryehGregor> Really? Darn.
# [03:17] <Hixie> lynx needs to get with the programme and implement js already
# [03:17] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I could be wrong. Ask Hixie.
# [03:18] <zewt> the few times in the last decade I've had to load lynx for one reason or another, it still does the "pause to show a message 10 times per page load" thing
# [03:19] <zewt> which is pretty awesome
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# [03:19] <AryehGregor> You mean like "This site is trying to set a cookie. Do you want to accept it?"
# [03:19] <zewt> (for some value of awesome)
# [03:19] <AryehGregor> Several times?
# [03:20] <AryehGregor> Yeah, lynx is cool that way.
# [03:20] <zewt> well come on, cookies are a violation of privacy, you need to ask permission for each one
# [03:20] <AryehGregor> One time my school computers (almost all RHEL) were practically unusable because NFS was unresponsive, taking like a second to service simple requests.
# [03:21] <AryehGregor> So all GUI stuff totally died because everyone's home directory was on NFS and all GNOME stuff checks every file in your home directory a billion times a second or something.
# [03:21] <TabAtkins> True story.
# [03:21] <AryehGregor> So I did Ctrl-Alt-F1 and browsed the web using lynx, which more or less worked if you were patient.
# [03:21] <AryehGregor> It impressed my officemate.
# [03:21] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, have you ever tried straceing a GNOME process's startup?
# [03:22] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: No. I've never run strace in any capacity.
# [03:22] <zewt> i havn't used gnome in like a decade and I hope to keep my streak going
# [03:22] <AryehGregor> $ strace gnome-calculator 2>&1 | grep '^open(' | wc -l
# [03:22] <AryehGregor> 338
# [03:22] <AryehGregor> That's starting and then immediately closing.
# [03:22] <AryehGregor> srsly.
# [03:23] <AryehGregor> zewt, what do you use?
# [03:23] <zewt> windows :)
# [03:23] <zewt> (linux too, but relegated to a shell)
# [03:24] <AryehGregor> Speaking of GNOME, I have to think of new ways to harass them into reviewing the one-line patch I submitted well over six months ago.
# [03:24] <zewt> generally if i have to harass people to look at patches, I find other projects to contribute to
# [03:25] <AryehGregor> I think I'm going to write up step-by-step instructions for how to apply the patch to your desktop, and post it on all the bugs I filed in various bug trackers.
# [03:25] <AryehGregor> Then maybe other people will find it works for them and they'll help me harass them.
# [03:25] <AryehGregor> zewt, me too, except that in this case it means I have to either endure the bug or re-patch the GNOME clock every time.
# [03:25] <AryehGregor> Currently I've chosen to endure it because I can't be bothered to figure out again how to actually replace the clock applet on a running system.
# [03:26] <AryehGregor> But if I write up instructions and post them on the bugs, then at least I'll have something to refer to when I next upgrade.
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# [03:34] <AryehGregor> Hixie, why is <xmp> not conforming? It would be nice to have when marking up sample HTML markup in HTML by hand.
# [03:35] <AryehGregor> (If you're generating the HTML by a script, you can of course just escape it.)
# [03:35] <AryehGregor> I hate having to type out stuff like <b>Foo</b>, it's incredibly awkward.
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# [03:35] <Hixie> same reason <u> isn't conforming :-)
# [03:36] <TabAtkins> This is why I'm writing myself a custom Markdown parser that doesn't understand any HTML, so I can just write things in that and then take the generated HTML.
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# [03:36] <Hixie> (what semantic would it have?)
# [03:37] <AryehGregor> Hixie, it's a syntactic construct, not a semantic one. It should be semantically void, like <span>.
# [03:37] <AryehGregor> Or <div>, maybe.
# [03:38] <AryehGregor> <xmp><b></xmp> and <span><b></span> would be semantically equivalent.
# [03:41] <Hixie> interesting
# [03:41] <Hixie> file a bug, i guess
# [03:41] <TabAtkins> I don't think HTML has any syntactic constructs any more.
# [03:41] <Hixie> cc henri, i'm interested in what he'd have to say
# [03:41] <Hixie> it'd be an xhtml vs html difference
# [03:42] <Hixie> what is supposed to happen with a UTF-8 document that contains a U+D800 (surrogate half) character?
# [03:42] <TabAtkins> My only fear is people using it as a way of "safely" embedding user-generated text.
# [03:42] <Hixie> did we change this recently?
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# [03:45] <zewt> AryehGregor: would & < > still resolve to &<>? (to encode </xmp> literally)
# [03:45] <AryehGregor> zewt, try it and see: data:text/html,<!doctype html><xmp><>&</xmp>
# [03:45] <AryehGregor> (no)
# [03:45] <AryehGregor> (so you can't encode </xmp> literally, just like you can't encode </script> literally inside <script>)
# [03:46] <zewt> well, </script> has a workaround; would this?
# [03:46] <TabAtkins> Sure - use two <xmp> elements.
# [03:46] <AryehGregor> Doesn't work well with default style.
# [03:46] <TabAtkins> Encoding the first "<x" in one, and "mp>" in the other.
# [03:47] <AryehGregor> Which is block, same as pre.
# [03:47] <zewt> that's not the same, though--that gives you two elements
# [03:47] <AryehGregor> The workaround would be using <pre> instead, and HTML-escaping.
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# [03:47] <TabAtkins> Sure, I'm not saying it's perfect.
# [03:47] <zewt> (granted, "</scr"+"ipt>" isn't exactly the same, either, but in practical terms it is)
# [03:47] <AryehGregor> So <xmp> isn't perfect, that's life.
# [03:47] <jcranmer> "\u003c/script>" ?
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# [03:50] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12235
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# [03:51] <AryehGregor> I'll try to think of a use-case for <plaintext>. :)
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# [03:59] <zewt> speaking of </script>, should innerHTML/outerHTML's non-normative text note that the fragment may not represent the element exactly (may not round-trip)?
# [03:59] <Hixie> it already does somewhere
# [04:01] <zewt> hmm, down in the HTML serialization algo text ... okay i guess
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# [08:20] <annevk> Hixie, the multipart boundary string probably needs to be prefixed by "boundary="
# [08:20] <annevk> Hixie, when you make the MIME type
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# [08:30] <jamesr__> hey y'all i'm trying to find documentation or specification for the 'scrolling' attribute on i?frame. it seems pretty widely supported but i can't find references to it
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# [08:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: <xmp> already has the same semantic as <pre>
# [08:33] <annevk> jamesr__, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#margins-and-padding
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# [08:47] <annevk> benschwarz, yo
# [08:47] <annevk> benschwarz, how about that blog post?
# [08:47] <annevk> ;)
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# [09:02] <zcorpan> annevk: one argument against <object> is that it's not as safe as <img> -- it allows scripted content and plugins, so wouldn't allow it for user generated stuff
# [09:02] <zcorpan> maybe <iframe sandbox> solves that, dunno
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# [09:03] <zcorpan> also svg in object is like interactive and eats click events while svg in img is not interactive and doesn't eat click events
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# [09:04] <zcorpan> so if you want to use an svg image in a link with rich fallback, <object> makes the link not work
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# [09:07] <boblet> hsivonen: I think I found a validator.nu bug. Using <style scoped> as the first child of <figure> gives an error
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# [09:19] <zcorpan> Hixie: + <ul onchange="calculate(form)"> - this wouldn't actually work right? would need to be document.forms.pricecalc or so
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# [10:04] <hsivonen> boblet: thanks. I kinda wish we had a clear direction on <style scoped>: remove from spec ASAP or implement in browsers ASAP
# [10:04] <boblet> oh, is it controversial?
# [10:05] <boblet> I love it for code examples — everything bundled into one figure
# [10:05] <zcorpan> i don't think it's controversial, it's just low priority and probably non-trivial to implement (especially scoped @-rules)
# [10:08] <boblet> yeah, that’s true. I’m just using it with an id hook, so implementation isn’t really so important for me
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# [10:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe the simplest thing to do at the moment is have an assertion that bans <style scoped> on the basis that it's not implemented anywhere yet so should not be used yet
# [10:09] <boblet> zcorpan: is it actually harmful tho? it’s just added to head styles, no?
# [10:10] <zcorpan> boblet: it's harmful if sites start depending on styles being applied to the whole document
# [10:10] <zcorpan> boblet: because then the feature can't be implemented without breaking those sites
# [10:10] <zcorpan> apparently this has already happened with "use strict";
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# [10:12] <boblet> I was thinking to write about it for HTML5Doctor, and say to use with an id hook until there’s browser support
# [10:12] <zcorpan> i'd wait with recommending use of new features until they're implemented
# [10:13] <boblet> well, more if you use it, use it like this. I take your point, but I think ppl will find and use it regardless
# [10:13] <zcorpan> i'm frankly surprised that we haven't had any problems with <article> and friends
# [10:13] <Hixie> zcorpan, annevk: good points; please file bugs!
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# [10:15] <boblet> hsivonen: regardless of which way you decide to jump, the current error for style scoped is a bit confusing, so a warning or more accurate admonition would help
# [10:15] <boblet> zcorpan: thanks
# [10:16] <boblet> l8r
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# [10:16] <zcorpan> seeya
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# [10:20] <annevk> filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12237
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# [10:23] <annevk> I guess I should use www-dom for DOM Core
# [10:23] <annevk> or, we should use
# [10:23] <annevk> but Ms2ger is away or something
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# [10:36] <annevk> so in some browsers you can apply CSS properties to <frameset> and such?
# [10:36] <annevk> like 'background'?
# [10:37] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/863
# [10:37] <annevk> works in Gecko
# [10:38] <annevk> I guess that's a bug then
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# [10:39] <zcorpan> spelling fail - JaëgerMonkey https://mozillademos.org/demos/dashboard/demo.html
# [10:41] <zcorpan> section on CORS talks about CSP
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# [10:50] <jgraham__> zcorpan: ae is cool and umlauts are cool clearly having both is double plus cool. But they really missed a trick not going for æ̈
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# [10:54] <jgraham__> MikeSmith: BTW did I mention recently how awesome the HTML version of the ES5 spec is?
# [10:55] <MikeSmith> no you didn't
# [10:55] <MikeSmith> but glad it's useful
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# [10:59] <zcorpan> äë?
# [11:01] <annevk> AryehGregor, you are not subscribed to www-dom
# [11:02] * annevk was wondering who would miss out on DOM Core discussion
# [11:08] <jgraham__> zcorpan: Nah, the coolness of æ is so much greater than ae that the double diaeresis can't comepete
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# [11:10] * zcorpan was just having an unrelated discussion with his mom about how to type æ on windows
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# [11:25] <zcorpan> lol http://clubajax.org/presentations/the-fight-over-html5/
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# [11:26] <zcorpan> funny and accurate, love it
# [11:29] <Philip`> AryehGregor: If you want a syntactic construct rather than a semantic one, it seems better design to use something like <![CDATA[ that is purely syntactic and doesn't affect the DOM
# [11:29] <Philip`> (Need to find a way to make it apply in non-foreign content though, I guess)
# [11:30] <karlcow> zcorpan: misleading and inaccurate the clubajax thingie
# [11:30] <karlcow> I left a comment here but still in the moderation queue http://clubajax.org/presentation-the-fight-over-html5/comment-page-1/#comment-7463
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# [11:31] <annevk> there was only one real error I spotted
# [11:32] <zcorpan> namely?
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# [11:33] <zcorpan> it spells W3C as WC3
# [11:33] <annevk> trying to make standards patentable
# [11:33] <zcorpan> oh right
# [11:34] <annevk> well and the logo cost, but that seems like an obvious joke
# [11:34] <zcorpan> you sure? :)
# [11:34] <annevk> nah, just seems that way
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# [11:44] <deane> Hixie: I think the spec needs to define what a document is. It needs a definition or a pointer to a definition. Many people get confused between syntax and document.
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# [11:49] <zcorpan> deane: file a bug
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# [11:52] <deane> zcorpan: AFAIK the whatwg doesn't have a bug tracking system
# [11:53] <zcorpan> deane: html wg does, there's a comment box in the whatwg spec to use it
# [11:55] <deane> zcorpan: yeah, I know, but some people prefer not to deal with the w3c so the whatwg should provide some sort of alternative.
# [11:56] <zcorpan> ah, ok. the alternative in whatwg land is whatwg@whatwg.org i guess
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# [11:56] <deane> zcorpan: yeah, I'll sort something out
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# [12:03] <jgraham> Not really clear how you have to "deal with w3c" to file a bug
# [12:03] <jgraham> I guess there is the possibility that someone will raise your bug to an Issue
# [12:04] <jgraham> but you can ignore it if you like
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# [12:14] <MikeSmith> the W3C needs an official theme song
# [12:14] <MikeSmith> WHATWG already has that T.Rex "Whatever Happened to the Teenage Dream" song
# [12:14] <MikeSmith> which is a great song
# [12:14] <MikeSmith> but we need a similarly appropriate one for the W3C
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# [12:16] <deane> I don't particularly wish to use the W3C's buzilla since the last time I used it I was attacked by some crazed fan of Hixies
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# [12:20] <jgraham> Hixie has /groupies/? This spec editor lifestyle is so much mopre rock and roll than I thought
# [12:21] <MikeSmith> I'm a fan of Hixie
# [12:21] * jgraham is somewhat ashamed that his brain has just started reworking "Money for Nothing" to more apropos form
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# [12:21] <MikeSmith> I'm aheh
# [12:21] <MikeSmith> oh
# [12:21] <MikeSmith> heh
# [12:21] <deane> I'm a fan of Hixie too
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# [12:21] <MikeSmith> I'm also crazed maybe
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# [12:22] <MikeSmith> but I don't know if I'm crazed about Hixie
# [12:22] <MikeSmith> I'm just a big fan
# [12:22] <deane> nah,MikeSmith, you're ok
# [12:22] <MikeSmith> like I'm a Charlie Sheen fan too
# [12:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Have you ever turned up at his hotel room door without wearing any clothes?
# [12:22] <deane> maybe you're his biggest fan
# [12:22] <jgraham> That is really the acid test for a groupie
# [12:22] <deane> maybe you're like a Hixie stalker
# [12:23] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I have done that, and worse
# [12:23] <MikeSmith> oh *his* hotel room
# [12:23] <MikeSmith> well, no
# [12:23] <MikeSmith> but other hotel rooms, yeah
# [12:23] <deane> MikeSmith: perhaps you have photos of Hixie on your bedroom wall
# [12:23] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Phew. The images I was getting there were seriously disturbing
# [12:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie and David Cassidy from the Partridge Family
# [12:24] <MikeSmith> I also have pictures of Roy Fielding
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# [12:24] <MikeSmith> waiting to be autographed
# [12:25] <MikeSmith> anyway, I need to drop off
# [12:25] <MikeSmith> going to watch a movie
# [12:25] <MikeSmith> "The Town"
# [12:25] <MikeSmith> which, it better be good, or I'm going to raise hell
# [12:25] <MikeSmith> because I had to travel all the way across town to find a theater showing it at a decent time
# [12:26] <MikeSmith> you all don't have too much fun without me
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# [12:27] <deane> MikeSmith: enjoy your movie
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# [12:52] <annevk> heycam, so should I file a bug on Web IDL to get some kind of object support?
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# [13:09] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/webapi/issues/20 Member-only?
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# [13:34] <annevk> hmm, CustomEvent is not yet in Gecko or WebKit
# [13:35] <annevk> so initCustomEvent can probably be dropped then
# [13:35] <annevk> if people react positively to the initEvent(object) proposal
# [13:37] * jgraham doesn't really know why create and init are seperate steps
# [13:37] <jgraham> But I havne't read the draft carefully
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# [13:40] <hsivonen> having create and init as separate steps feels like an artifact of C++ memory management
# [13:41] <annevk> maybe at some point we'll make the init implicit
# [13:41] <annevk> like new MouseEvent(initObject)
# [13:41] <annevk> but for now this is good enough and much simpler
# [13:41] <zcorpan> can we jump to that directly?
# [13:42] <annevk> I'd rather not
# [13:42] <zcorpan> having three ways to create+init seems bad
# [13:42] <annevk> I mean everyone here gets excited about simplicity and how complex this is, but it's really not that complex and the use cases are nihil
# [13:43] <hsivonen> does IE SmartScreen treat all unsigned .exe files dangerous by default even if they don't match against malware fingerprints?
# [13:43] <annevk> zcorpan, one would just be a shorthand for the other in the end...
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# [13:43] <zcorpan> annevk: if the use cases are nihil, why bother with initEvent(object)?
# [13:44] <annevk> zcorpan, as I explained in the email, I want event interfaces to be extensible and initXXXEvent does not accomplish that
# [13:45] <annevk> zcorpan, so I want to introduce something as simple as possible that prevents introduction of any new initXXXEvent methods
# [13:45] <annevk> (and maybe allows us to remove some of them)
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# [14:25] <annevk> hmm, newsycombinator discovered canvaspaint.org
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# [14:28] <loucapo> greetings everyone
# [14:29] <annevk> good day
# [14:29] <loucapo> i dont believe there is, but does anyone here know for sure about limitations of CORS posting from http to https?
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# [14:33] <annevk> in theory there are no limitations
# [14:34] <annevk> in practice implementations might enforce limitations
# [14:34] <annevk> at some point we might formalize those one way or another
# [14:34] <loucapo> i see, we are seeing that status 0 issue again for non 200s
# [14:34] <loucapo> and 0 for 200s on chrome
# [14:36] <bga_> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/masa141421356/20110228/1298904732
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# [14:49] <annevk> if DOM Core did not have XML production checking the only normative dependencies would be Web IDL and RFC 2119...
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# [14:49] <annevk> hardcore
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# [15:06] * annevk wonders where AryehGregor is
# [15:07] <annevk> guess I should update XHR with the new hooks HTML has now
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# [15:38] <annevk> http://who-t.blogspot.com/2011/03/how-to-dos-developer.html glad I work on open standards instead...
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# [15:41] <annevk> updated http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/ with the new terms from HTML
# [15:41] <annevk> now I guess DOM Level 3 Events review comments
# [15:44] * smaug____ should review events part of web dom core
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# [15:45] <jgraham> annevk: Sarcasm? (about the "how to DOS…" article)
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# [15:50] <annevk> only slightly, because we do not nearly have as much people involved as open source projects I think
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# [15:55] <jgraham> Pretty sure I have seen most of the IRC and email things
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# [16:06] <Rik`> TabAtkins: http://bonjourmozilla.fr/?post/2011/02/25/Boris-Zbarsky for some BZ facts :)
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# [16:17] <loucapo> annevk, have you seen something similar to what i was saying earlier?
# [16:17] <annevk> strange as it may seem, I have not played much with CORS yet
# [16:18] <loucapo> seems like not too many have
# [16:18] <loucapo> i hear people still say its not possible to post across domains
# [16:18] <loucapo> makes me wanna slap them
# [16:18] <annevk> it's getting traction, but it's not exactly simple :/
# [16:18] <loucapo> i put my code on github
# [16:19] <loucapo> but never shared it
# [16:19] <annevk> hopefully Apache will do this by default one day
# [16:20] <jgraham> Rik`: I think that is the first photo of bz I ever saw
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# [16:38] <annevk> I think I raised all relevant points on DOM Level 3 Events: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011JanMar/
# [16:41] <zewt> way too late to invert the return value of dispatchEvent...
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# [16:44] <annevk> zewt, I did not suggest that
# [16:46] <annevk> As a heads up, Shelley Powers will be writing the WHATWG Weekly starting with her first post around March 21
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# [16:46] <annevk> jgraham volunteered to help out with publishing, though she can publish directly if she wishes in line with what we use for other contributors (everyone is allowed to blog)
# [16:47] <annevk> She asked that any suggestions for the WHATWG Weekly are submitted to "Shelley Powers" <shelleyp@burningbird.net>
# [16:47] <annevk> as she will be primarily be focusing on HTML and might not always have all the details on everything else that is going on
# [16:48] <annevk> I will include this summary in the next two WHATWG Weekly posts that I write as well and then hopefully the world knows how it works :)
# [16:50] <karlcow> there will be redundancy ;) that will cool to see
# [16:50] <karlcow> s/will/will be/
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# [16:59] <annevk> zewt, you misread what I wrote right? otherwise I need to fix something
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# [17:11] <zewt> ah yeah, k
# [17:11] <jonathanMH> This may be a little wordpress specific, but how should I differ between nav and aside in my themes? When I distribute a theme I can't tell which widgets will be put in the widget areas by the user. Would <section> be the best solution for this kind of uncertainty?
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# [17:16] <annevk> anyone know if html5test.com guy is available on IRC?
# [17:16] <annevk> the type=color validation tests are wrong
# [17:17] <annevk> it's impossible to make that invalid
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# [17:17] <annevk> also, the form event tests are wrong
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# [17:17] <annevk> besides that the events are now removed 'dispatchFormInput()' in form will return false because of the parenthesis
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# [17:19] <Rik`> annevk: I believe volkmar is in contact with him, by mail
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# [17:20] <volkmar> Rik`: not really by email, but i have his email
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# [17:21] <volkmar> i was going to send him a patch to remove forminput, formchange, and dispatch methods
# [17:21] <volkmar> but i have to understand why vim doesn't like utf-8 on this computer :(
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# [17:23] <annevk> the keygen tests are also wrong
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# [17:24] <Rik`> (and probably talking about forms :) )
# [17:25] <volkmar> annevk: who cares about keygen?
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# [17:26] <annevk> dunno, but it's worth points!
# [17:26] <annevk> actually, I used to care about <keygen>, mostly because it existed and I wanted it documented, but now that is done
# [17:26] <volkmar> eh... i can't really ask who cares about these kind of tests, sadly :(
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# [17:27] <annevk> we decided to look through it because it's Friday
# [17:27] <annevk> drinking a beer would be more enjoyable however so I'm going to do that now
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# [17:28] <volkmar> annevk: a beer is a thousand times better :)
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# [17:28] <volkmar> and cheers ;)
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# [17:35] <TabAtkins> Rik`: That bz link is funny. ^_^
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# [17:35] -tomaw- [Global Notice] Hi again. As you will have noticed we're having some connectivity problems again this afternoon. We're working with sponsors to rectify it.
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# [17:38] <mven> is it still going ?
# [17:38] <mven> beh wrong channel ;p
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# [17:41] <AryehGregor> annevk, I'm reluctant to subscribe to any more spec mailing lists, they take enough time as-is.
# [17:41] <jgraham> http://ie6countdown.com/
# [17:42] <TabAtkins> Hah, Opera's nearly stamped out IE6 usage in Norway. ^_^
# [17:43] <AryehGregor> Also, yeah, http://clubajax.org/presentations/the-fight-over-html5/ is awesome.
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# [17:44] <AryehGregor> "12.0% of the world was using Internet Explorer 6, which was 9% lower than the previous year"
# [17:44] <AryehGregor> I assume they mean "9 percentage points" and not "9%" there.
# [17:46] <TabAtkins> Yes, I assume so.
# [17:47] <TabAtkins> This is why percentages are confusing - they don't contain information about what they're relative to.
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# [18:36] <AryehGregor> You know, if <xmp> isn't made valid, I could always do <script type=text/plain style=display:inline><b>some HTML I don't need to escape&&&!</b></script>
# [18:36] <AryehGregor> That would just be semantically incorrect.
# [18:36] <AryehGregor> I have to say, it's sad that <xmp> is flow content instead of phrasing content. Makes it much less useful.
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# [18:42] <AryehGregor> "My main regret in saying this is that WebIDL, having evolved from Corba IDL,
# [18:42] <AryehGregor> is notationally almost pessimal for encouraging good JS interface design. We
# [18:42] <AryehGregor> have all been suffering the consequences of that. I fear that WebIDL, and
# [18:42] <AryehGregor> What's that supposed to mean?
# [18:42] <AryehGregor> JS programmers are the only ones we cater to, in real life . . .
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# [18:48] <AryehGregor> Argh, my toString() definition is wrong too.
# [18:48] <AryehGregor> Ranges are bloody confusing.
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# [18:52] <bfrohs> Yes, yes they are.
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# [18:53] <AryehGregor> It's so tempting to assume that they assume that they include everything between their start and end nodes.
# [18:53] <AryehGregor> That would make things so simple.
# [18:54] <AryehGregor> But it's a primrose path. Don't be fooled!
# [18:54] <bfrohs> They don't?
# [18:54] <AryehGregor> No, not even remotely.
# [18:54] <AryehGregor> Consider a range whose start is (head, 0) and whose end is (body, 3).
# [18:54] <AryehGregor> It contains a whole bunch of nodes that come after body in the DOM.
# [18:54] <bfrohs> Also, I noticed when copying an ordered list, if you don't include the first item, it doesn't realize it is an ordered list and only sees the li and makes it unordered. (at least in ff)
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> . . . what?
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> That sounds like a Selection.toString() issue!
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> Which I'm supposed to be standardizing, but I got demoralized and moved on to things that are saner.
# [18:55] <bfrohs> IIRC, there are several other issues when copying and pasting from mid-string (similar to the li issue)
# [18:56] <AryehGregor> Yes, this is why I ran away from it.
# [18:56] <AryehGregor> I didn't even consider this sort of mid-string issue.
# [18:56] <AryehGregor> But I still ran away.
# [18:56] <bfrohs> I don't blame you one bit
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> Also because it's not clear anyone wants to standardize the API.
# [18:57] <zot--> bravely ran away?
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> Possibly.
# [18:57] <bfrohs> oh, you wouldn't happen to be standardizing double/triple clicking selects, would you?
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> Certainly not, those are platform-specific.
# [18:57] <bfrohs> Cause it becomes *very* interesting when generated content is involved
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> Oh, selecting generated content.
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's a fun one.
# [18:57] <bfrohs> :first-letter especially
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# [18:58] <AryehGregor> Hmm? What generated content would you put in :first-letter?
# [18:58] <bfrohs> well, wait
# [18:58] <bfrohs> Let me go back to what I was doing and figure out exactly what the issue was--one sec
# [18:59] <bfrohs> Take that back, SPAN around first letter in an H1
# [19:03] <dglazkov> is there any indication anywhere that meter/progress elements should change their orientation depending on the containing width?
# [19:03] <dglazkov> I just scanned http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-button-element.html#the-progress-element and http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-button-element.html#the-meter-element
# [19:03] <dglazkov> and there doesn't seem to be anything there
# [19:05] <AryehGregor> dglazkov, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#the-meter-element-0
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# [19:05] <TabAtkins_> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12232
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# [19:07] <uf0> question
# [19:07] <TabAtkins_> answer
# [19:07] <uf0> what kind of bugs occur if I leave out '<meta charset="utf-8">' in a basic html page
# [19:07] <TabAtkins_> Depends. Are you sending a charset header?
# [19:07] <uf0> sending, as in in the apache config?
# [19:08] <TabAtkins_> If you are, the page uses that. If not, it defaults to, um, Windows-1252 or something? Something that'll make your page look messed up if you use characters too far outside of ascii.
# [19:08] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
# [19:08] <zot--> depends on the user's environment--typically defaults to their default windows codepage, i think
# [19:08] <zot--> (... in windows)
# [19:08] <uf0> makes sense, you've answered my question :)
# [19:08] <uf0> got another one
# [19:09] <zot--> so many japanese pages with no charset defined anywhere, just expecting that everyone will default to sjis, heh
# [19:09] <uf0> <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible">
# [19:09] <zot--> i almost wish every browser would just default to something totally nonsensical so the problem wouldn't be so obscured
# [19:09] <uf0> is that something WhatWG created or microsoft
# [19:09] <uf0> ?
# [19:09] <TabAtkins_> Microsoft.
# [19:09] <uf0> so why this..
# [19:09] <uf0> <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge,chrome=1">
# [19:09] <TabAtkins_> We wouldn't do something so dumb.
# [19:09] <uf0> the chrome=1 part
# [19:09] <uf0> which is google
# [19:10] <TabAtkins_> That's something that Chrome Frame listens for.
# [19:10] <uf0> what's the point of adding that then, I see the point for IE
# [19:10] <uf0> because I actually ran into a bug where it rendered in IE7 mode
# [19:10] <uf0> and edge fixed
# [19:10] <TabAtkins_> It tells Chrome Frame "hey, if you're installed, use yourself to render me".
# [19:11] <uf0> you're a fucking guru, thanks!
# [19:11] <uf0> case closed.
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# [19:27] <AryehGregor> Does Opera have a built-in mail client?
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# [19:28] <karlcow> AryehGregor: yes
# [19:28] <karlcow> irc too
# [19:28] <karlcow> p2p too
# [19:28] <zot--> also tetris and a copy of emacs
# [19:28] <AryehGregor> Mmm.
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# [19:29] <AryehGregor> rniwa is saying he thinks maybe <font> is needed for e-mail clients, because some clients don't understand CSS.
# [19:29] <AryehGregor> I'll have to do a survey of e-mail clients to see.
# [19:29] <annevk> AryehGregor, if DOM related matters are to be discussed on www-dom I suspect that would make sense for DOM Range too
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# [19:30] <AryehGregor> Then maybe I can subscribe to www-dom and unsubscribe from public-webapps.
# [19:30] <AryehGregor> Is www-dom also a Webapps WG list?
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# [19:30] <karlcow> AryehGregor: the support of HTML in email clients has been historically bad.
# [19:30] <karlcow> there is a very good source for it
# [19:30] <annevk> AryehGregor, sort of
# [19:31] <karlcow> let me fetch it
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# [19:33] <karlcow> AryehGregor: http://www.campaignmonitor.com/css/
# [19:35] <AryehGregor> Ouch, Blackberry doesn't support font-family or font-size.
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# [19:41] <AryehGregor> Actually, I remember now, people were complaining about this and Hixie WONTFIXed them.
# [19:42] <AryehGregor> They wanted legacy markup to be made valid because Blackberry needed it and he said they should complain to Blackberry.
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# [19:42] <AryehGregor> I suspect browser implementers whose rendering engines are used for e-mail clients won't be receptive to that suggestion.
# [19:42] <karlcow> Email marketers/communications teams/PR people have to rely on tables for their html emails
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# [20:12] <zot--> html spec vs. chrome 9: html spec wins
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# [20:14] <AryehGregor> Hmm?
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# [20:16] <zewt> made the mistake of triple-clicking in the spec, heh
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# [20:32] <AryehGregor> Argh, that's the second time in two days I wrote "for (var i = 0; i < foo; i++)" instead of "for (var i = 0; i < foo.length; i++)".
# [20:32] <AryehGregor> This is why we want foreach-style loops. C-style for loops are an abomination.
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# [20:33] <othermaciej> what language are you writing in?
# [20:34] <AryehGregor> JavaScript.
# [20:34] <zewt> gah, i can't copy text from the spec with chrome no matter what I do; it always decides to select the whole document
# [20:34] <AryehGregor> As I understand it, for (var entry in arr) is a bad idea because it might pick up added attributes or wacky stuff like that, right?
# [20:35] <gsnedder1> AryehGregor: Right
# [20:37] <jamesr_> it's a crappy language that lets you do that
# [20:37] <jamesr_> without at least some sort of indication of a problem
# [20:37] <jamesr_> comparing an int to an array is silly
# [20:37] <othermaciej> for (var entry in arr) won't really do what you want
# [20:37] <AryehGregor> Yes, the typing here is really too weak.
# [20:38] <AryehGregor> It should raise an exception or at least log a warning if you compare a number to an array.
# [20:38] <AryehGregor> I guess it's too late for that, though.
# [20:38] <AryehGregor> (Maybe in strict mode? :) )
# [20:38] <zewt> can we just make strict mode python
# [20:38] <gsnedder1> Logging a warning can always be done. And changes in Harmony are always possible.
# [20:38] <AryehGregor> (Is there any provision for extending strict mode? "use stricter mode";?)
# [20:38] <AryehGregor> zewt++
# [20:39] <gsnedder1> AryehGregor: Harmony will have separate MIME-type, as I understand the intention
# [20:39] <othermaciej> it will enumerate the property names, not the properties
# [20:39] <othermaciej> however, I don't see how forgetting .length undermines for loops
# [20:39] <othermaciej> obviously there is much better syntax for enumerating arrays out there, but that's not a very good example of why for loops are grungy
# [20:39] <AryehGregor> Given that, will anyone actually use it?
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# [20:39] <AryehGregor> Well, I'd reply, but you just left.
# [20:40] <AryehGregor> gsnedder1, FWIW, I found no Opera bugs with my deleteContents() tests, other than unrelated bugs in Range that I already knew about. I found at least one bug in every other browser.
# [20:40] <gsnedder1> AryehGregor: Well you generally have a properly if you ever want to make any syntax change because they're inherently not BC compatible, and will just throw SyntaxError in existing impls
# [20:40] * gsnedder1 is now known as gsnedders
# [20:40] <AryehGregor> . . . although the unrelated bugs still make Opera fail more bugs than any other non-IE browser.
# [20:41] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, so instead, let's pop up a "would you like to download this file?" dialog in legacy UAs! . . . or actually, I guess they just ignore scripts with different <script type="">, right?
# [20:41] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Just ignore them. They have to, because of legacy VBScript.
# [20:41] <AryehGregor> As long as they don't care about the actual MIME type served by the server, that sounds potentially sane.
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# [20:42] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: There was some talk about both in-band and out-of-band markers
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# [20:43] <gsnedders> I haven't been massively keeping up-to-date on all of this, and I'm not on the TC39 list
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# [20:57] <uf0> why are these chosen to display block: article, aside, details, figcaption, figure, footer, header, hgroup, menu, nav, section { display:block; }
# [20:58] <uf0> why aren't any others added? is it because those are the only block elements
# [20:58] <uf0> and everything else is inline by default?
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# [21:18] <AryehGregor> IE sometimes randomly doesn't run some of my tests, even with timeout: 60000. :(
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> Where by "sometimes" I mean "usually".
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> Oh, now it worked.
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# [22:00] <aho> http://html5doctor.com/html5-simplequiz-6-zeldmans-fat-footer/#comment-14585
# [22:00] <aho> is there anything else one could use for image+caption?
# [22:01] <aho> dl/dt/dd is kinda icky :>
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# [22:07] <AryehGregor> <div> and <span>?
# [22:07] <aho> <div><img/><span>caption</span></div>... meh :>
# [22:08] <aho> with <dl><dt><img/></dt><dd>caption</dd></dl> you got at least some relationship between the image and the caption
# [22:09] <aho> i.e. they belong together
# [22:09] <aho> whereas the former is just some image and oh there is also some span... might be the caption or some other text
# [22:10] <AryehGregor> <div> implies there's some type of grouping relevant to its contents.
# [22:11] <aho> that's only as strong as the outer dl in the second example
# [22:12] <aho> it's like a pile of things vs a pile of things where two things are glued together :>
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# [22:38] <annevk> Hixie, no idea why impls do it that way, found it via http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/track/issues/35
# [22:39] <annevk> Hixie, I suspect there might be a few other things that work this way, but I have not tried figuring it out
# [22:39] <annevk> Hixie, we could introduce some kind of "default handler" concept in DOM Core for this I suppose
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# [22:55] <AryehGregor> annevk, okay, I joined www-dom. If DOM discussion stays there, maybe I can drop public-webapps.
# [22:55] <AryehGregor> Mostly stuff about IndexedDB and whatnot, it seems.
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# [23:25] <uf0> what's the using the keyword 'only' in: @media only screen and (max-device-width: 480px)
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# [23:26] <uf0> what's the use**
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# [23:29] <Hixie> annevk: can we change implementations?
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# [23:31] <uf0> I don't see the point of using 'only' media queries
# [23:31] <uf0> because browsers that don't support MQ will ignore anyway
# [23:31] <uf0> am I wrong here?
# [23:32] <uf0> @media only screen and (max-device-width: 480px) vs @media screen and (max-device-width: 480px)
# [23:32] <Hixie> uf0: according to html4, browsers that don't support MQ will treat "screen and (foo)" as "screen"
# [23:32] <stevela> q
# [23:32] <stevela> sorry - ignore me.
# [23:33] <uf0> so are you advocating for me to use @media only screen and (max-device-width: 480px)
# [23:33] <uf0> ?
# [23:33] <uf0> that's safer?
# [23:34] <Hixie> only way to know what's safer is to test browsers
# [23:34] <tw2113> use media queries to alter what would be the default view, and if they're not supported, have the regular version show up
# [23:35] <uf0> tw2113 I'm specifically talking about the keyword 'only'
# [23:35] <uf0> should it be left in or not
# [23:37] <uf0> thanks Hixie.
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# [23:47] <heycam> annevk, yes file a bug please (for generic structured-cloneable object support)
# [23:47] <annevk> Hixie, no idea really, maybe cc jonas and such
# [23:47] <annevk> Hixie, and some other "old timers"
# [23:47] <annevk> Hixie, they might know :)
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# [23:48] <annevk> heycam, will do tomorrow
# [23:48] <heycam> annevk, how does html5 deal with? are there specific apis that take an object to do a structured clone of?
# [23:49] <annevk> heycam, postMessage() and localStorage I guess
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# [23:50] <annevk> heycam, Jonas says Indexed DB might use it
# [23:50] <annevk> heycam, for events I guess we only need the keys and their immediate values to be "sane"
# [23:50] <annevk> heycam, as e.g. CustomEvent.details can take an arbitrary object as far as I can tell
# [23:51] <heycam> annevk, for details though will it do the structured clone?
# [23:51] <heycam> or just hold on a reference to that object?
# [23:51] <heycam> if the latter, we don't need anything special
# [23:51] <heycam> and the implementation won't be inspecting that object, it's only for script to use, right?
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# [23:52] <annevk> heycam, right, but that object can be nested in another one that does need some kind of "saneness"
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# [23:52] <annevk> heycam, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011JanMar/0061.html
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# [23:53] <heycam> annevk, ah
# [23:53] <annevk> heycam, so it's just a reference, but it can be inside an object where you need some kind of guarantees
# [23:54] <heycam> annevk, so I think the way some of the DAP specs handled this is to define an interface (with [Callback] maybe?) with writable attributes for each of the keys you might expect on the object
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# [23:54] <heycam> annevk, that might not work if you don't know the set of keys you're expecting
# [23:54] <heycam> s/might not/won't/
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# Session Close: Sat Mar 05 00:00:00 2011

The end :)