/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-07 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 07 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: Stiks (Stikki@dsl-pribrasgw1-fe85dd00-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  4. # [00:03] * Joins: Stikki (Stikki@dsl-pribrasgw1-fe85dd00-176.dhcp.inet.fi)
  5. # [00:05] * Quits: homata___ (~homata_@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  6. # [00:06] * Joins: homata__ (~homata_@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  7. # [00:06] * Quits: homata__ (~homata_@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  8. # [00:07] * Joins: homata__ (~homata_@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  9. # [00:08] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  10. # [00:08] * Quits: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec) (Quit: Leaving)
  11. # [00:10] * Joins: benschwarz (~benschwar@ppp59-167-179-123.static.internode.on.net)
  12. # [00:12] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  13. # [00:15] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-174-63-81-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  14. # [00:22] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  15. # [00:22] * Joins: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec)
  16. # [00:23] * Joins: Ankheg (~Ankheg@94.158.194.27)
  17. # [00:27] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.19)
  18. # [00:29] * Joins: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1471.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  19. # [00:29] * Joins: [lan3y] (~laney@5ade4228.bb.sky.com)
  20. # [00:33] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  21. # [01:04] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  22. # [01:06] * Joins: jochen___ (~jochen@nat/google/x-bydknwlsrmqtlqnp)
  23. # [01:06] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  24. # [01:09] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-cxlbzqcqpqucbghz) (Ping timeout: 251 seconds)
  25. # [01:09] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
  26. # [01:10] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@219.157.197.113.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  27. # [01:10] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  28. # [01:22] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  29. # [01:24] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  30. # [01:26] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  31. # [01:29] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  32. # [01:39] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  33. # [01:42] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  34. # [01:44] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  35. # [01:45] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@128.250.195.186)
  36. # [01:48] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:baac:6fff:fe99:adfb) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  37. # [01:52] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  38. # [01:52] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:baac:6fff:fe99:adfb)
  39. # [01:54] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
  40. # [01:55] * Joins: bckenny (~bckenny@c-98-248-41-174.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  41. # [02:01] <aho> TabAtkins_, plain text data region?
  42. # [02:01] <aho> that xmp thing?
  43. # [02:11] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  44. # [02:18] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: boaz)
  45. # [02:42] * Joins: yusukes (~yusukes@2401:fa00:4:1000:224:81ff:fec1:6444)
  46. # [02:44] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  47. # [02:57] * Joins: koalayumyum (~koalayumy@platinum.feralhosting.com)
  48. # [02:57] <koalayumyum> Anyone here used the html5 boilerplate?
  49. # [02:58] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-202f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  50. # [02:58] <paul_irish> i have.
  51. # [02:58] <koalayumyum> ah ha =]
  52. # [02:58] <paul_irish> ;)
  53. # [02:59] <koalayumyum> I'm havin an issue with the .ir class on a site I'm working on...perhaps I'm not implementing it correctly...would you mind taking a look?
  54. # [02:59] <paul_irish> sure. come over to #html5 and we can dig into it there
  55. # [03:00] <koalayumyum> ok, thanks
  56. # [03:12] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@94.158.194.27) (Quit: Leaving.)
  57. # [03:28] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-89-187f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  58. # [03:32] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.19) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  59. # [03:35] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-174-63-81-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  60. # [03:55] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-28-143.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  61. # [03:55] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  62. # [04:03] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@58x157x21x205.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  63. # [04:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@58x157x21x205.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  64. # [04:03] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  65. # [04:09] * Joins: AlexNRoss (~AleossIRC@unaffiliated/aleoss)
  66. # [04:15] * Quits: koalayumyum (~koalayumy@platinum.feralhosting.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  67. # [04:21] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  68. # [04:23] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@58x157x21x205.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  69. # [04:23] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@58x157x21x205.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  70. # [04:27] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@c-24-5-146-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  71. # [04:27] * m0_ is now known as m0
  72. # [04:29] * Joins: Sonja (~sonja@69-165-245-9.cable.teksavvy.com)
  73. # [04:29] <Sonja> can most browsers handle something like <img src="foo.svg" height="36" width="234"> nowadays? or must i still resort to a png that doesn't gracefully react to Ctrl-plus and Ctrl-minus
  74. # [04:31] <m0> Nice -hyphenate-limit-{before,after} is now implemented in WebKit!
  75. # [04:33] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: boaz)
  76. # [04:54] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc15-seac19-2-0-cust232.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  77. # [04:54] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@c-24-5-146-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  78. # [04:56] * Joins: alex_mamel (~koalayumy@pool-173-78-40-174.tampfl.fios.verizon.net)
  79. # [04:57] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@c-24-5-146-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  80. # [05:07] * Parts: Sonja (~sonja@69-165-245-9.cable.teksavvy.com) ("Konversation terminated!")
  81. # [05:12] * Quits: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@58x157x21x205.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith_)
  82. # [05:23] * Joins: SteveGL (~dev@174-21-129-46.tukw.qwest.net)
  83. # [05:23] * Quits: SteveGL (~dev@174-21-129-46.tukw.qwest.net) (Client Quit)
  84. # [05:25] * Quits: bckenny (~bckenny@c-98-248-41-174.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  85. # [05:35] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
  86. # [05:50] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  87. # [05:55] * Quits: benschwarz (~benschwar@ppp59-167-179-123.static.internode.on.net) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  88. # [05:58] * Joins: nonge__ (~nonge@p5082BEB1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  89. # [05:59] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  90. # [06:03] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p5082A3F2.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  91. # [06:32] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-590c62d1.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  92. # [06:45] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-49-140-138.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  93. # [06:57] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-49-140-138.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  94. # [07:01] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-49-140-138.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  95. # [07:04] * Joins: 92AACM3FH (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  96. # [07:05] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  97. # [07:06] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  98. # [07:07] * Quits: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec) (Quit: Leaving)
  99. # [07:10] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Don't follow me)
  100. # [07:14] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-49-140-138.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: No route to host)
  101. # [07:14] * Quits: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  102. # [07:19] * Quits: asmodai (asmodai@dhammapada.xs4all.nl) (Quit: new world)
  103. # [07:20] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.13/20110103133706])
  104. # [07:24] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  105. # [07:26] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  106. # [07:26] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  107. # [07:26] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
  108. # [07:26] * Joins: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  109. # [07:28] * Quits: s21n (~s21n@unaffiliated/s21n) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  110. # [07:28] * Joins: s21n (~s21n@as1-228.ostrowiec.dialup.inetia.pl)
  111. # [07:28] * Quits: s21n (~s21n@as1-228.ostrowiec.dialup.inetia.pl) (Changing host)
  112. # [07:28] * Joins: s21n (~s21n@unaffiliated/s21n)
  113. # [07:30] * Quits: AlexNRoss (~AleossIRC@unaffiliated/aleoss) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  114. # [07:34] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  115. # [07:35] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  116. # [07:44] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  117. # [07:44] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  118. # [07:45] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  119. # [07:45] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  120. # [07:48] * Joins: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan)
  121. # [07:48] * Joins: asmodai (asmodai@dhammapada.xs4all.nl)
  122. # [07:49] * Quits: 92AACM3FH (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  123. # [07:57] * Quits: Kuruma_ (~Kuruman@p19170-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  124. # [07:57] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Write error: Broken pipe)
  125. # [07:57] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  126. # [07:57] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  127. # [07:57] * Quits: nonge__ (~nonge@p5082BEB1.dip.t-dialin.net) (*.net *.split)
  128. # [07:57] * Quits: alex_mamel (~koalayumy@pool-173-78-40-174.tampfl.fios.verizon.net) (*.net *.split)
  129. # [07:57] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-174-63-81-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
  130. # [07:57] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@128.250.195.186) (*.net *.split)
  131. # [07:57] * Quits: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1471.res.insa-lyon.fr) (*.net *.split)
  132. # [07:57] * Disconnected
  133. # [07:58] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  134. # [07:59] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  135. # [07:59] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  136. # [07:59] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  137. # [07:59] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan) (*.net *.split)
  138. # [07:59] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-89-187f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
  139. # [07:59] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (*.net *.split)
  140. # [07:59] * Quits: Kuruma_ (~Kuruman@p19170-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (*.net *.split)
  141. # [07:59] * Quits: krijnh (~krijnhoet@83.160.77.30) (*.net *.split)
  142. # [07:59] * Quits: mven (~mven__@169.241.49.57) (*.net *.split)
  143. # [07:59] * Quits: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56) (*.net *.split)
  144. # [07:59] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (*.net *.split)
  145. # [07:59] * Joins: Kuruma__ (~Kuruman@p19170-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  146. # [07:59] * Joins: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56)
  147. # [07:59] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  148. # [08:03] * Joins: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  149. # [08:03] * Joins: foolip_ (~foolip@h242n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com)
  150. # [08:04] * Joins: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan)
  151. # [08:09] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  152. # [08:12] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  153. # [08:14] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@adsl-75-36-189-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
  154. # [08:15] * Joins: davve__ (~davve@83.218.67.122)
  155. # [08:25] * Quits: mike][inq (~mike@2001:858:5:303:224:81ff:fe12:b5c4) (Remote host closed the connection)
  156. # [08:28] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@128.250.195.186) (Quit: ben_h)
  157. # [08:30] * Joins: mike][inq (~mike@2001:858:5:303:224:81ff:fe12:b5c4)
  158. # [08:38] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  159. # [08:40] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@77.222.73.150)
  160. # [08:42] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-b21c6869-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  161. # [08:45] * Joins: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec)
  162. # [08:46] * Quits: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (Quit: Leaving)
  163. # [08:47] * Joins: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au)
  164. # [08:54] <annevk> guess it's time to write WHATWG Weekly
  165. # [08:57] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  166. # [09:01] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@79.232-136-217.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be)
  167. # [09:05] <foolip_> gsnedders, jgraham, would either/both of you care to have a look at http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=178 ?
  168. # [09:06] * Quits: [lan3y] (~laney@5ade4228.bb.sky.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  169. # [09:08] * Quits: wolfman2000 (~wolfman20@rrcs-70-63-208-211.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  170. # [09:10] * Quits: foolip_ (~foolip@h242n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  171. # [09:15] * Joins: kal-EL_ (~jor-EL@host103-148-dynamic.211-62-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  172. # [09:16] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-b21c6869-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  173. # [09:21] <annevk> congratulations Lachy!
  174. # [09:23] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15)
  175. # [09:26] * Joins: kor (~kor@a83-161-211-173.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  176. # [09:36] * Parts: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  177. # [09:40] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  178. # [09:44] * Joins: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com)
  179. # [09:47] * Joins: msucan (~robod@89.123.185.86)
  180. # [09:59] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-b21c6869-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  181. # [09:59] * Joins: tbassetto (~tbassetto@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  182. # [10:01] <annevk> Led Zeppelin win
  183. # [10:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'm having a bit of trouble reading the text on your site. could you try to increase the line-height slightly please?
  184. # [10:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is Opera still picking the wrong font file?
  185. # [10:02] <annevk> so far I have
  186. # [10:02] <annevk> Web Notifications
  187. # [10:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: dunno
  188. # [10:02] <annevk> Purging Link Relations
  189. # [10:03] <annevk> leading with Shelley Powers volunteering
  190. # [10:03] <annevk> and a bunch of shorts from the WHATWG list
  191. # [10:03] <jgraham> Led Zepplin?
  192. # [10:03] <annevk> guess I should check the HTML WG list
  193. # [10:03] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  194. # [10:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: don't think so, looks the same in firefox
  195. # [10:03] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-b21c6869-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  196. # [10:03] <annevk> jgraham, album IV
  197. # [10:04] <hsivonen> oh, nice. Opera has fixed its font selection.
  198. # [10:05] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-b21c6869-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  199. # [10:05] <hsivonen> I wonder which line-height I should use.
  200. # [10:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: a line-height of 1.4 or 1.5 makes it easier to read for me
  201. # [10:05] <zcorpan> (unitless)
  202. # [10:07] <jgraham> annevk: Now I have both a headache and the drums from "When the Levee Breaks" in my head
  203. # [10:07] <jgraham> annevk: But still, awesome album :)
  204. # [10:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: how about now? (1.25)
  205. # [10:08] <jgraham> foolip: Interesting bug
  206. # [10:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: still too little for me
  207. # [10:11] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-b21c6869-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  208. # [10:11] <annevk> :)
  209. # [10:13] <hsivonen> hmm. 1.4 feels a bit too much of a jump for me
  210. # [10:13] <foolip> jgraham, is it easy to run html5lib directly from the hg repo to try out some fixes?
  211. # [10:15] * Joins: matijsb (~matijsb@188.205.108.18)
  212. # [10:15] <jgraham> foolip: Once you have a clone? Yes
  213. # [10:16] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  214. # [10:16] <jgraham> either cd into the python directory and import html5lib
  215. # [10:16] <jgraham> Or setup a virtualenv or so and do python setup.py develop
  216. # [10:16] <jgraham> and it will be the installed version in the whole virtualenv
  217. # [10:17] <foolip> haven't ever used virtualenv, does it have any benefits over the first option?
  218. # [10:17] <jgraham> Not really in this case
  219. # [10:17] <jgraham> In general, it is The Right Thing To Do
  220. # [10:17] <jgraham> if you are writing python
  221. # [10:18] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  222. # [10:21] <foolip> jgraham, so does my hypothesis about the bug seem right?
  223. # [10:24] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@86.188.197.189)
  224. # [10:26] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  225. # [10:27] <jgraham> foolip: It seems that something is going wrong when we try to clone the token to reconstruct the active formatting element
  226. # [10:28] <jgraham> Or maybe when we insert the attribute
  227. # [10:28] <jgraham> In any case it seems very odd to have getcontext()< as the attribute name
  228. # [10:28] <annevk> ok
  229. # [10:28] <annevk> gonna post now
  230. # [10:28] <jgraham> foolip: BTW you know that you can just pass a string in to the parser, right?
  231. # [10:29] <foolip> jgraham, yes, but it didn't reproduce then
  232. # [10:29] <jgraham> No need for a file
  233. # [10:29] <foolip> or I just guessed the wrong syntax
  234. # [10:30] <foolip> is it not html5lib.parse("<p><code x<=foo></code></p>", treebuilder="lxml") ?
  235. # [10:31] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-web-notifications
  236. # [10:32] <annevk> either I missed something or not much happened
  237. # [10:32] <jgraham> foolip: That is scary
  238. # [10:33] <jgraham> I can reproduce it only reproducing with file input
  239. # [10:34] <jgraham> annevk: You should have mentioned hsivonen's investigation into loading about:blank I guess
  240. # [10:36] <annevk> added to shorts
  241. # [10:38] * Joins: Ankheg (~Ankheg@94.158.194.27)
  242. # [10:40] * jgraham wonders what to think about the W3C license
  243. # [10:40] <jgraham> + suggestion
  244. # [10:41] <annevk> no replies to any of the events emails
  245. # [10:41] <annevk> guess I have to wait until tomorrow
  246. # [10:43] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  247. # [10:54] * hsivonen sighs at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11637#c2
  248. # [10:56] <annevk> bureaucracy is painful
  249. # [10:57] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15)
  250. # [10:58] <annevk> though it can also be funny
  251. # [10:58] <annevk> the other day I saw this exposition in Sweden: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/photobooth/2010/06/bureaucratics.html
  252. # [10:59] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  253. # [11:00] <zcorpan> abarth: "and
  254. # [11:00] <zcorpan> the non-origin cookies are returned in the Origin-Cookie header
  255. # [11:00] <zcorpan> field." -- s/Origin-//
  256. # [11:05] * Parts: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122) ("Ex-Chat")
  257. # [11:05] <annevk> wait what
  258. # [11:05] * Joins: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122)
  259. # [11:05] <annevk> I thought the HTML WG test suite was under the MIT license?
  260. # [11:06] <jgraham> annevk: No
  261. # [11:06] <annevk> when was that decision reverted?
  262. # [11:07] * Quits: ezoe_ (~ezoe@203-140-89-187f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  263. # [11:07] <hsivonen> annevk: was there ever a decision?
  264. # [11:07] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/license.txt
  265. # [11:07] <hsivonen> ooh. interesting
  266. # [11:07] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc15-seac19-2-0-cust232.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  267. # [11:07] <jgraham> wtf
  268. # [11:07] <jgraham> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/1c140e17afb5/tests/resources/testharness.js has BSD/W3C
  269. # [11:08] * hsivonen feels sorry for whoever has to bother lawyers about sorting that out
  270. # [11:08] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Submission/
  271. # [11:08] <annevk> well, it's not going to be me
  272. # [11:08] <annevk> at least not anytime soon
  273. # [11:09] * hsivonen is guessing it's going to be jgraham
  274. # [11:09] * jgraham hopes he doesn't have to bother lawyers
  275. # [11:09] <jgraham> But the prospects look bad :(
  276. # [11:10] * Quits: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  277. # [11:10] <jgraham> Maybe I can make MikeSmith do it!
  278. # [11:10] * Joins: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au)
  279. # [11:10] <jgraham> <laugh type=evil>
  280. # [11:12] * zcorpan puts <laugh> on the list of formatting elements and injects a bunch of <p>s in the input stream
  281. # [11:13] <annevk> guess I should fix EventSource tests today
  282. # [11:13] <annevk> :/
  283. # [11:13] <zcorpan> annevk: it's better than fixing websocket tests, i bet
  284. # [11:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: <laugh> is a void element
  285. # [11:14] <annevk> what I hate most is all the different servers and setups and keeping it all in sync
  286. # [11:14] <zcorpan> jgraham: bummer
  287. # [11:14] <jgraham> Also I think even lawyers might be better than updating websockets tests
  288. # [11:14] <zcorpan> heh :/
  289. # [11:14] <jgraham> Although that might just be optimisim on my part
  290. # [11:14] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  291. # [11:15] <annevk> lawyers delayed WHATWG work for six months or so
  292. # [11:15] <annevk> sorting out the two-line copyright license
  293. # [11:16] <zcorpan> there was no whatwg work for six months because of the license?
  294. # [11:17] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  295. # [11:17] * Quits: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  296. # [11:18] <annevk> pretty sure
  297. # [11:18] <jgraham> Well yes, and the "option 3" thing that has taken years and looks dangerously like it has field of use restrictions
  298. # [11:18] <annevk> before SVN I'm afraid
  299. # [11:19] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  300. # [11:24] <zcorpan> must have been in 2004 before i got involved
  301. # [11:24] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool123.cs.man.ac.uk)
  302. # [11:24] <annevk> yeah, after the summer or so
  303. # [11:25] <annevk> I think
  304. # [11:28] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  305. # [11:39] * Quits: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  306. # [11:40] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  307. # [11:40] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  308. # [11:41] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-25-213-250.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: kennyluck)
  309. # [11:42] * Quits: connrs (~paul@host81-152-90-158.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  310. # [11:47] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  311. # [11:48] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  312. # [11:50] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e35:139b:b390:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  313. # [11:51] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  314. # [11:59] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  315. # [12:01] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-25-213-250.dynamic.hinet.net)
  316. # [12:05] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-25-213-250.dynamic.hinet.net) (Client Quit)
  317. # [12:09] <annevk> so, time to drop the "living standard" label and proceed without labels?
  318. # [12:10] <jgraham> And also the HTML label?
  319. # [12:10] <jgraham> ("living standard" is just a description, it's not a label)
  320. # [12:11] <annevk> you wouldn't call "working draft" or "candidate recommendation" a label?
  321. # [12:12] <jgraham> Well they have formal status
  322. # [12:12] <jgraham> They are names for states
  323. # [12:12] <annevk> all the same to me
  324. # [12:12] <jgraham> "living standard" is purely descriptive
  325. # [12:12] <annevk> and we don't need it
  326. # [12:13] <jgraham> No, we also don't need any non-normative text
  327. # [12:13] <jgraham> But it has value
  328. # [12:14] <annevk> i don't think this has and I thought the plan was to get rid of it
  329. # [12:14] <jgraham> I think it is very successful in conveying to people the model that is being used
  330. # [12:15] <jgraham> You can tell it works because people are objecting to the model
  331. # [12:15] <jgraham> Their objections are largely nonsense
  332. # [12:15] <jgraham> But that's not generally because they don't understand the model
  333. # [12:16] <jgraham> But becuase they don't understand the implications correctly
  334. # [12:17] <annevk> why convey something that just causes confusion?
  335. # [12:17] <jgraham> It doesn't cause confusion
  336. # [12:17] <annevk> yes it does
  337. # [12:17] <jgraham> No, people's broken idea of how web specs work causes confusion
  338. # [12:17] <annevk> see the >100 comments on the post announcing the phrase
  339. # [12:18] <jgraham> The phrase is helpful in conveying the actual model
  340. # [12:18] <jgraham> Those 100+ comments were, by and large, not people confusion about our intentions for maintaining HTML going forward
  341. # [12:19] <jgraham> They were people confused into thinking that the model we will use will cause all sorts of bad side effects
  342. # [12:19] <jgraham> The right approach to clearing up that confusion is not to make it less obvious what the model is
  343. # [12:19] <jgraham> But to make it more obvious that all the bad stuff either won't happen or doesn't matter
  344. # [12:20] <annevk> it makes more sense to me to convey the model by practice than markety terms
  345. # [12:20] <jgraham> The model has been in practice since 1994 or so
  346. # [12:20] <annevk> not really
  347. # [12:21] <jgraham> It's just that even the people practising it thought they weren't
  348. # [12:21] <annevk> o_O
  349. # [12:21] <jgraham> Well except the bit where you actually write down what you are doing
  350. # [12:21] <jgraham> Rather than just doing random stuff
  351. # [12:22] <jgraham> I mean, in practice, since 1994 HTML has been unversioned for implementors. Authors have had to determine compatibility by looking at what UAs support rather than spec versions they conform to
  352. # [12:22] <annevk> you should get a blog for these essays
  353. # [12:22] <annevk> and I should get some sleep :)
  354. # [12:23] <annevk> but first eventsource
  355. # [12:23] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  356. # [12:24] * Guest7905 is now known as Moo-_-_
  357. # [12:24] <jgraham> Anyway, I think that changing the name every two weeks only has bad effects
  358. # [12:24] <jgraham> And what we have is fine
  359. # [12:28] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15)
  360. # [12:30] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  361. # [12:32] <annevk> That went somewhat easier than anticipated although still quite a bit of work.
  362. # [12:32] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool123.cs.man.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  363. # [12:33] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  364. # [12:33] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  365. # [12:41] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@MMMDCCXVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  366. # [12:42] * Quits: seventh (seventh@64.9.157.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
  367. # [12:43] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e35:139b:b390:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed) (Remote host closed the connection)
  368. # [12:54] <annevk> DOM Level 3 Events introduces new hasFeature usage
  369. # [12:54] <annevk> grmbl
  370. # [13:02] * Quits: homata__ (~homata_@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  371. # [13:04] * zcorpan has complained about that in his partial dom3events review
  372. # [13:05] <annevk> oh, then I duplicated your effort
  373. # [13:16] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: boaz)
  374. # [13:19] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  375. # [13:27] * Joins: doublec_ (~doublec@118-93-22-5.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  376. # [13:28] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  377. # [13:33] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  378. # [13:34] <smaug____> argh , even more PutForwards in the spec
  379. # [13:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  380. # [13:35] * Joins: reni (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu)
  381. # [13:37] <annevk> it's used quite a lot
  382. # [13:39] <smaug____> apparently with dropzone too, which is quite bizarre.
  383. # [13:39] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  384. # [13:39] * smaug____ needs to propose something better
  385. # [13:40] * Quits: reni (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu) (Remote host closed the connection)
  386. # [13:41] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  387. # [13:44] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  388. # [13:44] <annevk> down to 850 emails
  389. # [13:44] * Quits: zum (~antti@xdsl-83-150-88-4.nebulazone.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  390. # [13:44] <annevk> maybe I should try to get down to 500 before I leave
  391. # [13:46] <smaug____> annevk: vacation?
  392. # [13:46] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@118-168-80-161.dynamic.hinet.net)
  393. # [13:48] <annevk> 3 months to South America starting March 15
  394. # [13:49] <smaug____> Doesn't sound too bad :)
  395. # [13:50] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  396. # [13:51] <annevk> Yeah, I'm quite excited :)
  397. # [13:52] * Quits: s21n (~s21n@unaffiliated/s21n)
  398. # [13:53] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p1182-ipbf4006marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  399. # [13:57] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  400. # [13:59] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  401. # [13:59] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  402. # [14:03] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  403. # [14:05] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15)
  404. # [14:10] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.19)
  405. # [14:13] <smaug____> oh, it is not just the dropzone which need some work, but the whole new d&d
  406. # [14:17] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  407. # [14:18] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  408. # [14:22] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  409. # [14:24] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  410. # [14:25] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  411. # [14:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  412. # [14:32] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-99.cnt.nerim.net)
  413. # [14:35] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  414. # [14:36] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  415. # [14:42] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  416. # [14:45] * Parts: david_carlisle (~davidc@86.188.197.189)
  417. # [14:54] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  418. # [14:56] * Quits: webr3 (~nathan@host86-142-128-44.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  419. # [14:57] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  420. # [14:59] * Quits: doublec_ (~doublec@118-93-22-5.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (Quit: Leaving)
  421. # [15:00] * Joins: bfrohs (~bfrohs@smtp.forewordinternal.com)
  422. # [15:01] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d6b0.pool.mediaWays.net)
  423. # [15:02] * Joins: webr3 (~nathan@host86-142-128-44.range86-142.btcentralplus.com)
  424. # [15:03] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-28-21.dynamic.amis.net)
  425. # [15:04] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Remote host closed the connection)
  426. # [15:06] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  427. # [15:06] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@118-168-80-161.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: kennyluck)
  428. # [15:10] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  429. # [15:12] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  430. # [15:12] * Joins: speakman (~daniel@unaffiliated/speakman)
  431. # [15:13] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  432. # [15:13] <speakman> is this channel for html5 usage questions?
  433. # [15:16] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.36)
  434. # [15:17] <erlehmann> speakman, no, go to #html5
  435. # [15:21] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  436. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: um, I don't think most people here would have any problems with speakman asking html5 usage questions here
  437. # [15:24] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  438. # [15:28] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  439. # [15:28] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  440. # [15:29] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  441. # [15:29] <karlcow> Qt was not cute enough for Nokia.
  442. # [15:35] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p1182-ipbf4006marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  443. # [15:40] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@MMMDCCXVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  444. # [15:41] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
  445. # [15:41] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12) (Changing host)
  446. # [15:41] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  447. # [15:41] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@c-24-5-146-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  448. # [15:43] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-174-63-81-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  449. # [15:45] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  450. # [15:46] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  451. # [15:47] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, probably. but speakman asked explicitly for a usage question channel and isn't #html5 the more appropriate answer then?
  452. # [15:47] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
  453. # [15:47] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12) (Changing host)
  454. # [15:47] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  455. # [15:51] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Client Quit)
  456. # [15:52] <speakman> Didn't know about #html5. Sounds like a more appropriate channel. :)
  457. # [15:52] * Parts: speakman (~daniel@unaffiliated/speakman)
  458. # [15:54] <krijnserver> -_-
  459. # [15:54] <krijnserver> Is HTML5 done yet?
  460. # [15:55] <krijnserver> Can I use it already?
  461. # [15:55] <Moo-_-_> krijnserver: you can use it already
  462. # [15:55] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  463. # [15:55] <Moo-_-_> krijnserver: however, you need to specify which subset of HTML5 you use
  464. # [15:55] <Moo-_-_> krijnserver: All modern browsers support at least some of the HTML5 features
  465. # [15:55] <krijnserver> Hm, interesting
  466. # [15:56] <erlehmann> krijnserver, no and yes.
  467. # [15:56] <Moo-_-_> krijnserver: http://html5readiness.com/
  468. # [15:57] * krijnserver is now known as krijnh
  469. # [15:58] * Quits: webr3 (~nathan@host86-142-128-44.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  470. # [15:59] <annevk> Moo-_-_, erlehmann, krijnh is trolling you
  471. # [15:59] <krijnh> I'm pulling a ppk
  472. # [15:59] <Moo-_-_> annevk: ah. it was not instantly obvious. wouldn't be the first person asking the question :)
  473. # [15:59] <erlehmann> annevk, OH NOES. MY COGNITIVE RESOURCES.
  474. # [15:59] * Moo-_-_ pours some tar and feathers on krijnh
  475. # [16:00] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric_carl@2620:0:1b00:1191:217:f2ff:fe03:a2e)
  476. # [16:00] <annevk> well well... he runs the IRC logs
  477. # [16:00] <annevk> guess that gives him some trolling privileges :)
  478. # [16:00] <krijnh> And you know it!
  479. # [16:02] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
  480. # [16:04] * Joins: webr3 (~nathan@host86-142-128-44.range86-142.btcentralplus.com)
  481. # [16:05] * Joins: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237)
  482. # [16:10] <annevk> sure sounds like this will lead to "stable standards" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2011Mar/0007.html
  483. # [16:12] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.19) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  484. # [16:12] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  485. # [16:18] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  486. # [16:20] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  487. # [16:20] <zewt> ew
  488. # [16:21] <zewt> referencing RFCs instead of w3 specs for that reason seems ... borderline absurd
  489. # [16:23] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  490. # [16:24] <annevk> the IDL one is the "best"
  491. # [16:25] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.79)
  492. # [16:27] * Quits: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122) (Remote host closed the connection)
  493. # [16:31] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  494. # [16:31] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  495. # [16:32] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-25-213-250.dynamic.hinet.net)
  496. # [16:32] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-25-213-250.dynamic.hinet.net) (Client Quit)
  497. # [16:32] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-25-213-250.dynamic.hinet.net)
  498. # [16:32] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  499. # [16:37] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  500. # [16:38] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  501. # [16:39] * cying is now known as charlietuna
  502. # [16:40] * charlietuna is now known as cying
  503. # [16:40] * cying is now known as charlietuna
  504. # [16:40] * charlietuna is now known as charlietune
  505. # [16:42] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
  506. # [16:42] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12) (Changing host)
  507. # [16:42] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  508. # [16:47] <zcorpan> annevk: yay progress!
  509. # [16:48] <zcorpan> "Let's drop the reference to WebIDL and replace it with prose that requires the same things"
  510. # [16:51] * Quits: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu) (Remote host closed the connection)
  511. # [16:51] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  512. # [16:52] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  513. # [16:52] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@79.232-136-217.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: zZz)
  514. # [16:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: where's the quote from?
  515. # [16:58] <hsivonen> is this some Process stuff around spec maturity?
  516. # [16:58] * jgraham is quite scared hsivonen is reading his mind
  517. # [16:59] <jgraham> OI was literallyu jsut about to type that
  518. # [16:59] <zcorpan> it's not a quote, but a translation of the trailing part of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2011Mar/0007.html
  519. # [16:59] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  520. # [16:59] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  521. # [17:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's so very sad
  522. # [17:01] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Remote host closed the connection)
  523. # [17:02] * Joins: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-104-86.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
  524. # [17:04] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
  525. # [17:05] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  526. # [17:06] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@77.222.73.150) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  527. # [17:06] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  528. # [17:06] <karlcow> The intent of this rule is to avoid a normative reference to a content which might be dropped in the future.
  529. # [17:07] <jgraham> karlcow: If webidl gets dropped we have much bigger problems
  530. # [17:07] <karlcow> Not webidl.
  531. # [17:07] <karlcow> a specific feature of webidl
  532. # [17:07] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
  533. # [17:07] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12) (Changing host)
  534. # [17:07] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  535. # [17:08] <jgraham> karlcow: By induction the only way one can avoid that is to not use webidl at all
  536. # [17:08] <karlcow> The normative reference is usually to say, This feature in my spec X has a dependcy on the feature of the spec Z.
  537. # [17:08] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
  538. # [17:09] <jgraham> And if spec A depends on feature X of WebIDL and WebIDL changes the meaning of X we likely want A to inherit the change anyway
  539. # [17:09] <karlcow> jgraham: It's why encouraging smaller orthogonal specs with their own track was helping in this situation. Easier to fast forward.
  540. # [17:09] <karlcow> btw, I'm not saying it is good or not. I'm explaining the context of it.
  541. # [17:10] <karlcow> Process and specifications have their story telling and history :)
  542. # [17:10] <karlcow> jgraham: yep
  543. # [17:10] <karlcow> I think there is something to alleviate this issue
  544. # [17:10] <karlcow> let me try to find.
  545. # [17:10] <jgraham> karlcow: Well yes I understand that there is a reason in theory for the process. But I don't think it matches the reality
  546. # [17:11] <karlcow> jgraham: it doesn't match the current reality anymore.
  547. # [17:11] <karlcow> to read Deleuze about Jurisprudence and Legal systems.
  548. # [17:12] <jgraham> Arguably it never matched the reality. But that is angels on the head of a pin stuff
  549. # [17:12] <karlcow> here there are different strategies for normative references http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice
  550. # [17:12] <jgraham> The important point is that specs now shouldn't be crippled by process issues
  551. # [17:13] <karlcow> one of them is the one adopted by Unicode
  552. # [17:13] <karlcow> Where character sets will evolve in the future
  553. # [17:13] <zcorpan> it's also not a requirement in the Process document, but just a "typically" statement
  554. # [17:13] * Joins: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  555. # [17:14] <karlcow> jgraham: "specs now shouldn't be crippled by process issues" this time it is you which is out of reality. Written or not, in human transactions there are always process. This is exactly what human communications are.
  556. # [17:14] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  557. # [17:14] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-charmod-20050215/#sec-RefUnicode
  558. # [17:15] <karlcow> An example of referencing future version.
  559. # [17:15] <jgraham> *crippled*
  560. # [17:15] <jgraham> Rewiting a chunk of text purely to avoid a preocess issue, thereby potentially causing problems down the line === crippling
  561. # [17:15] <karlcow> I'm not on geolocation list, but if you want to chime in. It is possible to make a reference to WebIDL in a generic way by clearly stating it what the reference means.
  562. # [17:16] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  563. # [17:18] <karlcow> so basically, in summary, people have a tendency to make the W3C process stricter than it is. The W3C process basically says here there is a risk, explain to people, so they have the right expectations when reading this piece. That's all.
  564. # [17:21] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  565. # [17:22] <hsivonen> karlcow: sounds like "the Team Disease" :-/
  566. # [17:22] * Quits: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
  567. # [17:22] * karlcow doesn't know what is the team disease
  568. # [17:23] <hsivonen> karlcow: people who have been on the W3C Team rationalize W3C stuff not to be as bad as it looks even after leaving the Team
  569. # [17:23] <hsivonen> (the term is not my invention, FWIW)
  570. # [17:24] <karlcow> Because it is not that bad, but you might have different opinion :) it is ok.
  571. # [17:27] * Quits: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  572. # [17:28] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-56-23.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  573. # [17:31] <MikeSmith_> if you all talking about the problem the restriction that specs can't normatively reference drafts/specs that aren't already at PR, then fwiw, that seems to me to clearly be a major process bug that needs to be fixed
  574. # [17:31] <MikeSmith_> seems blazingly obvious to me
  575. # [17:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-187-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  576. # [17:31] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  577. # [17:32] <karlcow> MikeSmith: it is not a true bug. It can be fixed. But it is authorized to link a future reference of a technology :)
  578. # [17:32] <zewt> well it does seem to make sense that a finalized spec shouldn't reference a spec that isn't finalized ... but the solution seems to be simply "wait for the spec you need to reference to be finished"
  579. # [17:32] <karlcow> been there, done that.
  580. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> karlcow: it is a true bug, in that we all know it's a problem, but despite that, we've not fixed it
  581. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> zewt: in some worlds that might make sense, but in the real world it doesn't
  582. # [17:33] <karlcow> Nope. People are saying it is a problem, and that it is absolutely forbidden. :)
  583. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> exactly
  584. # [17:33] <karlcow> which is not true
  585. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> it's a people problem
  586. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> it's a people bug
  587. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> we need to fix some people, frankly, in order to get that bug fixed
  588. # [17:34] <karlcow> ahaha
  589. # [17:34] * Joins: seventh (seventh@138.199.65.103)
  590. # [17:34] <zewt> clearly, embedding snippets from other specs and referencing old RFCs instead of W3 specs to work around it is worse than any other possible end result, heh
  591. # [17:34] * karlcow has a big smile
  592. # [17:34] * Joins: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56)
  593. # [17:34] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  594. # [17:35] <Philip`> I guess the problem is the expectation that new technologies are built on a solid foundation, when actually the foundations of web technologies are terrible and full of holes
  595. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> bingo
  596. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> pretending otherwise is… pretending
  597. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> and pretending is traditionally more the province of the IETF
  598. # [17:35] <Philip`> And it's evidently okay to build on terrible foundations, because the web still pretty much works
  599. # [17:35] <hsivonen> Web specs are only as stable as the software implementing them
  600. # [17:36] <hsivonen> and the software keeps getting changed all the time
  601. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> Philip`: same old "worse is better" vs "the right thing"
  602. # [17:36] <hsivonen> but some parts of the software are still stable in practice
  603. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> yeah, ture
  604. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> *true
  605. # [17:36] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi)
  606. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> most APIs are quite stable
  607. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> because, well, otherwise we have madness
  608. # [17:37] <hsivonen> the concept of Origin is pretty stable for http URLs. less so for data: URLs
  609. # [17:38] * karlcow is trying to find an example of a technology which is stable… and can't find. Which makes "foundations of web technologies are terrible and full of holes" kind of moot. It is not the right argument
  610. # [17:39] <zewt> define stable :)
  611. # [17:39] <zewt> a word with many different meanings
  612. # [17:39] <karlcow> zewt: exactly
  613. # [17:39] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: I was raided by the FBI and all I got to keep was this lousy quit message!)
  614. # [17:39] <zewt> principally "works reliably" vs. "doesn't change"
  615. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> stability is something very different from "foundations of web technologies are terrible and full of holes"
  616. # [17:40] <zewt> (generally the latter when talking about specs, of course)
  617. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> that "foundations of web technologies are terrible and full of holes" comment wasn't about stability
  618. # [17:41] <karlcow> it is a truism.
  619. # [17:41] <Philip`> I suppose the WHATWG has a similar attitude problem in expecting two interoperable implementations of a whole spec and a comprehensive test suite, because that's the only way to ensure a spec is good quality - in practice that's never going to happen for HTML5 and it's a waste of time pretending we'll ever reach that point, so it'd be better to give up on the quality goal and focus on optimising limited resources
  620. # [17:41] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-99.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  621. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> Philip`: it's imaginable that we can arrive at some other metrics for deciding when a particular technology is recommendable as "ready for widespread adoption in production sites" (or whatever)
  622. # [17:43] <MikeSmith> that is, short of the " two interoperable implementations of a whole spec and a comprehensive test suite" metric
  623. # [17:44] <karlcow> same ol' discussions for the last few centuries :)
  624. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> really?
  625. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> I don't remember a whole lot of discussion about that previously
  626. # [17:44] <jgraham> Philip`: The WHATWG *has* given up on that goal, effectively
  627. # [17:44] * karlcow is sending his copy of Thomas Kuhn to MikeSmith
  628. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, well
  629. # [17:45] * jgraham isn't quite sure why Kuhn is relevant but is pretty sure it wasn't two centuries ago
  630. # [17:45] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-99.cnt.nerim.net)
  631. # [17:45] <karlcow> The issue is people searching for purity. The rules or the spirit of the rules
  632. # [17:45] <Philip`> jgraham: I thought there was still the idea within the WHATWG that the snapshot subset of HTML that the W3C calls HTML5 will meet that criteria in 2022, and that people should be working towards that goal
  633. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> jgraham: the "WHATWG" may have implicitly given up on that goal. But since there's not any actual way of measuring what the "WHATWG" actually thinks, that's something else that pretty much impossible to measure
  634. # [17:46] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  635. # [17:47] <annevk> karlcow, smaller orthogonal specs hardly exist
  636. # [17:47] <karlcow> about the double implementation report as a foolish guarantee, I have already written about that. http://www.w3.org/wiki/ImplementationReport
  637. # [17:47] <karlcow> The inconsistency raises a question: does this table prove interoperability between the products? We find that only Feature 1 and Feature 2 are implemented across the three products; only 40% of the specification FooML has reached widespread interoperability.
  638. # [17:47] <karlcow> Is FooML at a good point or at a bad point? Can we improve things? Can we use better metrics for improving implementations?
  639. # [17:47] <jgraham> Well yes, I guess i have falled into the lazy intellectual trap of ascribing notions to "the WHATWG" even when it has no cohesive existence
  640. # [17:47] <annevk> karlcow, the web is intertwined
  641. # [17:47] <annevk> karlcow, people better get used to it
  642. # [17:48] <jgraham> Philip`: Maybe
  643. # [17:48] <karlcow> annevk: yes you are right. The physics, the biology, the cooking, everything is intertwined. Another truism.
  644. # [17:48] <karlcow> This discussion doesn't make sense.
  645. # [17:48] * Quits: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  646. # [17:48] <jgraham> Philip`: I subscribe to the view that testing parts of the spec that are getting implemtation is valuable in continuously increasing interoperability and that arbitary timelines aren't that useful
  647. # [17:49] <jgraham> I don't know if that matches what anyone else thinks
  648. # [17:50] <jgraham> I guess dates have some value in giving people a sense of urgency
  649. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> jgraham: fwiw, it matches what I think too
  650. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> I think it's absurd that we aren't doing more formal testing at this point
  651. # [17:50] * Joins: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56)
  652. # [17:51] <jgraham> In the sense that the HTML5 testsuite is very post-hoc?
  653. # [17:51] <zewt> jgraham: dates 15 years in the future don't do that so much, though... :)
  654. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, but not just that
  655. # [17:51] * Quits: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com) (Quit: thiessenp)
  656. # [17:52] <karlcow> MikeSmith: it might be absurd, but it illustrates a reality. Not that many people like testing stuff. Not very rewarding with regard to the social group for many people. :)
  657. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> but it would seem in general that we all have a bit of ass-backwards way of doing feature development that's not in line with common, modern best practices in software development
  658. # [17:53] * Quits: charlietune (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: charlietune)
  659. # [17:53] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  660. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> karlcow: developers who write application code don't like testing stuff either
  661. # [17:53] <karlcow> yep
  662. # [17:53] * karlcow nods
  663. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> but they do test-driven development because they know that if they don't, they're just pushing off the costs til later, and of course increasing risk of bugs
  664. # [17:54] <zewt> depending heavily on the environment, language, etc
  665. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> sure
  666. # [17:55] <zewt> not really possible to write tests for stuff until late in the game anyway, since you need implementations to ... test the tests
  667. # [17:55] <karlcow> I'm not under the feeling that a majority of devs do test-driven, without entering into another overrated debate about dev methodologies
  668. # [17:55] <wilhelm> A lot of testing work is happening within the organizations of each browser vendor, I presume. But it takes effort to share tests. An effort well worth the investment, presumably. (c:
  669. # [17:55] * Philip` thinks "test-driven development" is something very specific that he's pretty much never seen anyone do in practice
  670. # [17:55] <Philip`> (i.e. you write tests first, and then write the code to make them pass)
  671. # [17:56] <Philip`> (Seems much more common to write code and tests in parallel, or the tests slightly after, in my (very limited) experience)
  672. # [17:56] <zewt> that sounds up there in terms of real-world unreasonable as "assurance"
  673. # [17:56] <zewt> way too expensive
  674. # [17:57] <Philip`> (and even more common to not write tests at all)
  675. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, well, it's like religion. like somebody asking Mark Twain if he had something against Christians, and him saying, no, he'd just never actually met one yet.
  676. # [17:57] * Quits: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  677. # [17:57] <zewt> in the real world, with most development, tests don't actually always pay for themselves, heh
  678. # [17:57] <wilhelm> zewt: That depends on the complexity on the problem you're solving. When adding new APIs to the OperaWatir test framework, we actually wrote tests before the implementation.
  679. # [17:57] * Joins: zdobersek1 (~zan@cpe-46-164-0-233.dynamic.amis.net)
  680. # [17:57] <wilhelm> That's a quite trivial software project compared to a web browser, though.
  681. # [17:58] <zewt> well, yeah--and in most development, you don't actually know precisely where you're going when you start, anyway
  682. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> zewt: that's true of any creative endeavor
  683. # [17:58] <zewt> yeah, but not all development (or every subsection of development) is creative
  684. # [17:58] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-28-21.dynamic.amis.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  685. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> I think it is
  686. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> I think it is fundamentally creative
  687. # [17:59] * karlcow on this good words will go cut the creative daikon for lunch
  688. # [17:59] <wilhelm> When implementing moderately stable web specs, you do know where you're going. We write tests and the running code at the same time here – with different people doing each part.
  689. # [18:00] <zewt> do you have poor hapless interns writing test code
  690. # [18:00] <wilhelm> They're not interns. (c;
  691. # [18:00] <zewt> extra hapless, then
  692. # [18:01] <wilhelm> One full-time tester per two developers.
  693. # [18:01] <wilhelm> Approximately.
  694. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> historically, hapless interns writing test code eventually turn into experiencec QA engineers and valuable test-case writers
  695. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> or even spec writers
  696. # [18:01] <zewt> writing test code seems more like a high-level QA job than development
  697. # [18:02] <zewt> though, perhaps with the advantage that the people developing the software will hate you less than a typical QA staff :P
  698. # [18:02] <zewt> QA results based on reproducable tests that I can run myself? yes please
  699. # [18:03] <wilhelm> If it can be automated, it must be. (c:
  700. # [18:04] * Joins: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56)
  701. # [18:04] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  702. # [18:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-56-23.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  703. # [18:08] * Quits: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1471.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Quit: espadrine)
  704. # [18:09] * Quits: matijsb (~matijsb@188.205.108.18) (Quit: Leaving.)
  705. # [18:13] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.220.59)
  706. # [18:13] * Quits: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-104-86.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
  707. # [18:14] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.220.59) (Client Quit)
  708. # [18:14] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-56-23.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  709. # [18:15] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  710. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: amen
  711. # [18:17] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@host-172-48-107-208.midco.net)
  712. # [18:18] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@host-172-48-107-208.midco.net) (Changing host)
  713. # [18:18] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
  714. # [18:18] * karlcow - daikon is being cooked
  715. # [18:19] * Joins: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/mozilla/x-kkiplnokfdekqdcp)
  716. # [18:19] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  717. # [18:24] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  718. # [18:28] * Quits: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  719. # [18:29] * Joins: gormer (~ghe@132.150.124.56)
  720. # [18:31] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  721. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> heh http://twitter.com/#!/brianleroux/status/44811140668198912
  722. # [18:40] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.220.59)
  723. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> "Client wants 5 extra devs on project in final week before SXSW. I wish Fred Brooks was a super hero I could invoke with a heartfelt plea."
  724. # [18:41] <zewt> when in doubt, throw a half dozen new people on project at last minute
  725. # [18:41] <zewt> what could possibly go wrong?
  726. # [18:42] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6)
  727. # [18:43] <karlcow> it reminds me last year nightmares.
  728. # [18:45] <karlcow> The business of Web development/Web agencies is flawed at many levels. Saturated market, low prices, lack of Web culture inherited from the publicity/marketing world. :/
  729. # [18:45] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  730. # [18:47] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-56-23.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  731. # [18:48] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.79) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  732. # [18:51] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15)
  733. # [18:52] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  734. # [18:52] * Quits: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  735. # [18:52] * Quits: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  736. # [18:53] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10)
  737. # [18:54] * Joins: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  738. # [18:54] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-132-97.dynamic.qsc.de)
  739. # [18:54] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10) (Client Quit)
  740. # [18:55] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d6b0.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  741. # [18:55] * Quits: Stikki (Stikki@dsl-pribrasgw1-fe85dd00-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  742. # [18:55] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.79.35)
  743. # [18:57] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  744. # [18:57] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  745. # [18:58] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi)
  746. # [18:58] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
  747. # [18:59] * Joins: foolip_ (~foolip@h242n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com)
  748. # [19:00] * Joins: Stikki (Stikki@dsl-pribrasgw1-fe85dd00-176.dhcp.inet.fi)
  749. # [19:00] <foolip_> jgraham, care to commit my change for http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=169 or make me committer so I can do it myself?
  750. # [19:01] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-56-23.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  751. # [19:02] <jgraham> foolip_: philip@foolip.org?
  752. # [19:04] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  753. # [19:04] <foolip_> jgraham, right
  754. # [19:05] <zewt> ... is that foo lip or fool ip? :P
  755. # [19:05] <foolip_> that's philip with s/phi/foo/, so the former I guess
  756. # [19:05] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-23-229.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  757. # [19:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-56-23.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  758. # [19:06] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  759. # [19:06] <foolip_> jgraham, do you ever do any kind of code review for html5lib?
  760. # [19:06] <foolip_> or just commit and hope for the best?
  761. # [19:06] * Joins: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  762. # [19:06] <jgraham> foolip_: Sometimes we go "oh my sainted lord what is this crap"
  763. # [19:06] <jgraham> Does that count?
  764. # [19:07] <foolip_> hehe, absolutely
  765. # [19:07] <jgraham> I guess occasionally we use different curses too
  766. # [19:07] <jgraham> But basically, so far we haven't bothered
  767. # [19:08] <foolip_> ok, I'll just apply common sense and colorful curses
  768. # [19:08] <jgraham> If you would like anything reviewed please ask
  769. # [19:09] <foolip_> sure
  770. # [19:09] <jgraham> And if you commit things that use \ to extend long lines I will have to use my full palette of curse colours
  771. # [19:09] <zewt> python? :P
  772. # [19:09] <jgraham> ;)
  773. # [19:09] <jgraham> zewt: Yeah
  774. # [19:09] <zewt> i've spent way too much time trying to "fix" people who have been tainted by PEP-8 :|
  775. # [19:10] <zewt> let's wrap at 80 columns, because anything more won't fit on my 14" CRT
  776. # [19:10] <jgraham> foolip_: (for style issues, basically try to look like the rest of the file. But I guess that is obvious)
  777. # [19:10] <foolip_> yep
  778. # [19:10] <jgraham> zewt: No, that is good and right
  779. # [19:10] <foolip_> one good thing about python is that it doesn't allow for as much variation and "styles" as some languages
  780. # [19:10] <jgraham> zewt: I often have two windows open side-by-side for example
  781. # [19:11] <zewt> doesn't really matter, the world doesn't end if your editor has to wrap a line here and there :)
  782. # [19:11] <jgraham> People who insist on using all the horizontal space on their dual 30" monitors when there are multiple nice places to wrap the line are very annoying
  783. # [19:11] <foolip_> watch out zewt, people with strong opinions about source code formatting are amusing :)
  784. # [19:12] <zewt> foolip_: probably everyone in here has strong opinions on such things :)
  785. # [19:12] <jgraham> Hmm, looks like the html5lib bugs have been building up a bit
  786. # [19:12] <zewt> i'll wrap if and where it makes sense, but I won't mangle code to force it
  787. # [19:12] <jgraham> I should give it some love
  788. # [19:13] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  789. # [19:14] * Quits: tbassetto (~tbassetto@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tbassetto)
  790. # [19:15] <foolip_> hmm, what does mercurial do you try to push a commit while your repo is out of date?
  791. # [19:15] <foolip_> does it even do rebase?
  792. # [19:16] <annevk> you do hg pull and then hg update
  793. # [19:16] <annevk> and then hg commit -m "merge" if it merged cleanly
  794. # [19:16] <annevk> or some such
  795. # [19:16] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  796. # [19:17] <jgraham> foolip_: You can enable rebase in the config
  797. # [19:18] <jgraham> and do hg pull --rebase
  798. # [19:18] <foolip_> jgraham, thanks
  799. # [19:20] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  800. # [19:20] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.220.59) (Quit: zZz)
  801. # [19:20] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  802. # [19:22] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
  803. # [19:22] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@2001:470:95a5:dead:beef:1337:c0ff:ee) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  804. # [19:24] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba@207.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  805. # [19:25] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@219.157.197.113.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  806. # [19:25] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.76)
  807. # [19:25] * Joins: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  808. # [19:26] * Quits: Stikki (Stikki@dsl-pribrasgw1-fe85dd00-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  809. # [19:26] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a) (Remote host closed the connection)
  810. # [19:26] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
  811. # [19:27] * Joins: Stikki (Stikki@dsl-pribrasgw1-fe85dd00-176.dhcp.inet.fi)
  812. # [19:28] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@c-24-5-146-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  813. # [19:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-23-229.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  814. # [19:32] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-23-229.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  815. # [19:33] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  816. # [19:34] * Joins: Stiks (Stikki@dsl-pribrasgw1-fe85dd00-176.dhcp.inet.fi)
  817. # [19:34] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Leaving)
  818. # [19:34] * Quits: Stikki (Stikki@dsl-pribrasgw1-fe85dd00-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  819. # [19:34] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  820. # [19:35] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15)
  821. # [19:35] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-48f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  822. # [19:37] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93)
  823. # [19:39] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  824. # [19:40] * Quits: Stiks (Stikki@dsl-pribrasgw1-fe85dd00-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  825. # [19:44] * Joins: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-94-134.dynamic.qsc.de)
  826. # [19:45] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-132-97.dynamic.qsc.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  827. # [19:46] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  828. # [19:46] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  829. # [19:46] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@17.244.14.92)
  830. # [19:48] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-7-13.dynamic.amis.net)
  831. # [19:49] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-23-229.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  832. # [19:49] * Quits: zdobersek1 (~zan@cpe-46-164-0-233.dynamic.amis.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  833. # [19:50] * Quits: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-94-134.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  834. # [19:50] * Joins: SavageX_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-208-142.dynamic.qsc.de)
  835. # [19:51] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-dalepfzbuxwwsmtv)
  836. # [19:52] * Joins: matijsb (~Adium@5353CD69.cm-6-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  837. # [19:52] * Quits: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  838. # [19:53] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.106.89)
  839. # [19:58] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  840. # [19:58] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.106.89) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  841. # [20:01] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c) (Quit: brb)
  842. # [20:04] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  843. # [20:04] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.220.59)
  844. # [20:05] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10)
  845. # [20:08] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-7-13.dynamic.amis.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  846. # [20:09] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-29-239.dynamic.amis.net)
  847. # [20:10] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@20.74.9.46.customer.cdi.no)
  848. # [20:10] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  849. # [20:12] <foolip_> jgraham, what's the proper way to run all the python tests?
  850. # [20:12] <foolip_> the runtest.sh script is a lie
  851. # [20:12] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric_carl@2620:0:1b00:1191:217:f2ff:fe03:a2e) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  852. # [20:12] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.106.89)
  853. # [20:21] * Quits: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  854. # [20:25] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2011Mar/thread.html
  855. # [20:25] <karlcow> 1 message about meeting
  856. # [20:25] <karlcow> 12 messages about IPR
  857. # [20:25] <karlcow> 1 message about techno
  858. # [20:26] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  859. # [20:26] <karlcow> the web and TV thing will show culture clashes for a little bit while.
  860. # [20:28] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  861. # [20:29] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric_carl@17.203.15.27)
  862. # [20:29] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.220.59) (Quit: zZz)
  863. # [20:31] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  864. # [20:32] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-29-239.dynamic.amis.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  865. # [20:37] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  866. # [20:41] * Quits: SavageX_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-208-142.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  867. # [20:50] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-23-229.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  868. # [20:53] * Quits: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec) (Quit: Leaving)
  869. # [21:00] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.14/20110301090359])
  870. # [21:00] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
  871. # [21:04] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi)
  872. # [21:05] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/mozilla/x-kkiplnokfdekqdcp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  873. # [21:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-23-229.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  874. # [21:08] * Joins: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:fed0:8cd2)
  875. # [21:18] * Joins: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  876. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Anyone have suggestions on non-obfuscated execCommand() users I could look at?
  877. # [21:21] <miketaylr> https://github.com/search?type=Code&language=javascript&q=execCommand&repo=&langOverride=&start_value=1&x=24&y=22 :)
  878. # [21:22] * Joins: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/mozilla/x-buraxfuunumqzwjp)
  879. # [21:24] <jgraham> foolip_: In theory python runtests.py should do it
  880. # [21:25] <jgraham> Note that some tests will fail today
  881. # [21:25] <jgraham> Since the tests evolve independenly
  882. # [21:27] * Joins: zum (~antti@xdsl-83-150-88-4.nebulazone.fi)
  883. # [21:28] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.220.59)
  884. # [21:29] * Quits: Dashiva (Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  885. # [21:31] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  886. # [21:34] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.220.59) (Quit: zZz)
  887. # [21:34] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@c-24-5-146-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  888. # [21:36] * Joins: doublec (~chris@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  889. # [21:36] * Quits: doublec (~chris@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Changing host)
  890. # [21:36] * Joins: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec)
  891. # [21:42] * Joins: davve__` (~davve@83.218.67.122)
  892. # [21:42] * Quits: davve__` (~davve@83.218.67.122) (Remote host closed the connection)
  893. # [21:45] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.79.35) (Quit: Martijnc)
  894. # [21:50] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  895. # [21:53] <foolip_> jgraham, filed http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=179 about all the things that are broken about tests
  896. # [21:55] <jgraham> foolip_: Looks like I bitrotted some of the stuf when I had a cleanout
  897. # [21:55] <jgraham> that shell script should die
  898. # [21:55] <foolip_> shall I just remove it?
  899. # [21:55] <jgraham> Yes
  900. # [21:56] <jgraham> simplejson shouldn't be in the support package, you should have to install it
  901. # [21:56] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  902. # [21:56] <jgraham> although we should use the built-in json where possible
  903. # [21:56] <jgraham> the potscript files are freaking me out
  904. # [21:56] <jgraham> *postscript
  905. # [21:56] <jgraham> I hope that is just random
  906. # [21:56] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-99.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  907. # [21:58] <foolip_> you've never seen them?
  908. # [21:59] <jgraham> No
  909. # [22:01] <annevk> awesome Hixie
  910. # [22:01] <annevk> gonna create those tomorrow
  911. # [22:06] * Joins: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-ywczkhopohzwuybj)
  912. # [22:08] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@94.158.194.27) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  913. # [22:09] * Joins: Ankheg (~Ankheg@94.158.194.27)
  914. # [22:17] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237) (Quit: plainhao)
  915. # [22:19] * Quits: Sosby (~fsosby@s2.rdlbnc.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  916. # [22:20] * Quits: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  917. # [22:22] * Joins: Sosby (fsosby@70.32.34.100)
  918. # [22:24] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
  919. # [22:26] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  920. # [22:27] * Quits: msucan (~robod@89.123.185.86) (Quit: .)
  921. # [22:40] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  922. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> Wordpress supports WYSIWYG of some type, right? Does anyone know of an existing Wordpress blog with public WYSIWYG comments enabled?
  923. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> Hmm, or maybe it only allows WYSIWYG for editors, not commenters?
  924. # [22:44] <gsnedders> For editors, AFAIK
  925. # [22:44] <Peter`> gsnedders: thanks for the list!
  926. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> Hmm, do I have a login at blog.whatwg.org?
  927. # [22:45] <gsnedders> Peter`: np
  928. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> Ah, looks like it uses TinyMCE, maybe.
  929. # [22:48] <gsnedders> IIRC it does
  930. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Blech, DOS line-endings?
  931. # [22:51] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  932. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> Oh, no, it has a mix. Nice.
  933. # [22:54] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  934. # [22:54] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Quit: OMG, YOU KILLED OPPO!)
  935. # [22:54] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  936. # [22:55] * bfrohs loves line-endings
  937. # [22:58] <zewt> i don't believe your lies
  938. # [22:58] <zewt> are you going to tell us you like time zones and legacy charsets, too
  939. # [22:58] <Ms2ger> Yes
  940. # [22:59] <bfrohs> Yes, I love them all /sarcasm
  941. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> Okay, so it looks like the big projects all just avoid execCommand() and roll their own editors.
  942. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> For good reason, needless to say.
  943. # [23:02] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  944. # [23:03] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  945. # [23:05] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  946. # [23:06] * Joins: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-104-86.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
  947. # [23:06] * Quits: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:fed0:8cd2) (Quit: estes)
  948. # [23:11] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-98-216-238-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  949. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Oh man, if so, can we just drop execCommand?
  950. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> No.
  951. # [23:13] * Quits: foolip_ (~foolip@h242n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  952. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> I mean, go ahead and try to convince implementers if you like.
  953. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> But no.
  954. # [23:13] <annevk> and if we make it work it might actually be useful
  955. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's the thing.
  956. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> No one uses it because it's so horribly inconsistent between browsers.
  957. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> If not for that, it would be useful.
  958. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Although it could probably also do with being more flexible.
  959. # [23:14] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (*.net *.split)
  960. # [23:16] <bfrohs> Thing I wish execCommand had was formatinline (inline version of formatblock)
  961. # [23:16] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-98-216-238-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  962. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that sounds like a good feature to add.
  963. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> Although it will be more complicated than formatBlock for sure.
  964. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> (if you want it to work sensibly)
  965. # [23:18] <bfrohs> Yeah, the lack of that feature caused me a lot of headaches awhile back when working on a basic wysiwyg editor
  966. # [23:19] <zewt> "modern" editors in javascript are invariably such a headache to use...
  967. # [23:19] <zewt> too magic, which means glitchy
  968. # [23:23] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  969. # [23:23] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93) (Quit: Leaving)
  970. # [23:24] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  971. # [23:25] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  972. # [23:31] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.79)
  973. # [23:38] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  974. # [23:40] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-157-190.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  975. # [23:43] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e35:139b:b390:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  976. # [23:46] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Don't follow me)
  977. # [23:47] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  978. # [23:47] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.14/20110301090359])
  979. # [23:47] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  980. # [23:49] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric_carl@17.203.15.27) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  981. # [23:51] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.79) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  982. # [23:51] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  983. # [23:51] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.79)
  984. # [23:52] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  985. # [23:55] * Joins: homata_ (~homata_@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  986. # [23:55] * Joins: SteveGL (~dev@174-21-205-223.tukw.qwest.net)
  987. # Session Close: Tue Mar 08 00:00:00 2011

The end :)