/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-31 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Mar 31 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:02] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [00:03] <aho> b64 is about the same
# [00:03] <zewt> gzipped base64, 1086 bytes ... very close
# [00:03] <aho> b64=33% bloat, gzip gets rid of that again :>
# [00:03] <zewt> (well--less close if it's a lot of data, but for a file index it's close enough)
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# [00:04] <zewt> and being able to look at the index (with your eyes and not special tools), pull out an sha-1, run sha1sum on a file and compare them (again with no special tools)--that's a general real-world win
# [00:05] <zewt> can't do that if your hashes are encoded in an unusual way
# [00:06] <aho> i do know one other person who does it the same way and who came up with it independently :>
# [00:06] <zewt> also stop with the md5 already it's 2011 :P
# [00:07] <aho> if you're only interested in detecting changes, md5 works fine
# [00:08] <zewt> no reason to use md5 in anything new--default to sha-1
# [00:08] <zewt> even if there's no particular reason to for an application, it helps to get out of the habit :P
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# [00:09] <aho> why not skein then? :>
# [00:10] <aho> or sha-2 for that matter
# [00:13] <zewt> well, sha-1 isn't considered obsolete today; md5 is
# [00:16] <aho> sha-1 outputs 20 bytes instead of 16... meh :I
# [00:16] <aho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_hash_function#Cryptographic_hash_algorithms
# [00:17] <aho> mhmh... ripemd-128 :>
# [00:17] <aho> never heard of that one
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# [01:27] <aho> are websockets now part of html5?
# [01:27] <aho> http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/ <- this url seems to suggest that
# [01:27] <Hixie> define "html5"
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# [01:27] <aho> http://www.whatwg.org/C <- that :P
# [01:27] <Hixie> that's not "HTML5", that's Web Applications 1.0
# [01:28] <Hixie> the Web Sockets API is part of Web Applications 1.0, the Web Sockets Protocol is not.
# [01:28] <aho> well, it was html5 prior to that whole "dropping the version number thing", right?
# [01:28] <Hixie> http://whatwg.org/html was labeled "html5" for a while
# [01:28] <Hixie> but that's a subset of http://whatwg.org/C
# [01:29] <Hixie> (the C stands for Complete)
# [01:29] <aho> ah... ok
# [01:29] <Hixie> the FAQ tries to explain it better if you're still confused :-)
# [01:32] <aho> and the /protocol/ is part of... some ietf thing?
# [01:34] * wilhelm approves of the kitchen sink illustration.
# [01:34] <aho> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/meet-newt-new-exciting-web-technologies/
# [01:34] <aho> lets go with that
# [01:34] <aho> css3? NEWT. webworkers? NEWT. canvas? NEWT. :>
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# [01:38] <potatis_invalido> Pronounced it'd sound like the Swedish word for pleasure.
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# [01:38] <aho> sounds about right
# [01:38] <aho> :>
# [01:39] <potatis_invalido> Haha yeah
# [01:40] <potatis_invalido> What fun projects are you people working on? (With emphasis on the word fun)
# [01:40] <aho> http://mbtic.com/ddd
# [01:41] <aho> old site, old markup, ignore that :>
# [01:41] <potatis_invalido> It's like the ice skating in Pokémon
# [01:41] <aho> never played any pokemon game
# [01:41] <potatis_invalido> but way cooler
# [01:41] <aho> :)
# [01:42] <potatis_invalido> I'm working on a Hammer Editor clone
# [01:42] <potatis_invalido> for the web
# [01:42] <potatis_invalido> Hammer Editor is the map editor for Half-Life and Source games
# [01:42] <potatis_invalido> 3D FPS games in other words
# [01:42] <aho> ah
# [01:42] <aho> i only used radiant (quake3's)
# [01:43] <aho> and some really old one for quake1
# [01:43] <aho> no idea how that one was called
# [01:43] <potatis_invalido> I've tried radiant. Found it confusing
# [01:43] <aho> it is
# [01:43] <aho> got some curve to it
# [01:43] <potatis_invalido> quark?
# [01:43] <aho> probably :)
# [01:43] <aho> it's been a while
# [01:44] <Hixie> aho: web socket protocol is being done by the ietf hybi group
# [01:44] <potatis_invalido> Did you finish any maps?
# [01:44] <aho> i made some midair maps
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# [01:44] <Yuhong> "I wonder what Arjun Ray is doing these days. one could spend a weekend reading his ciwah posts from the late 1990s "
# [01:44] <Yuhong> People have forgotten how the Netscape monopoly was bad.
# [01:45] <aho> but that mod was experimental and only a dozen people ever played it :>
# [01:45] <Yuhong> Back in 1995 or so.
# [01:45] <potatis_invalido> I've been mapping Half-Life ~5 years now. Still haven't been able to produce anything worth looking at :P
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# [01:45] <Yuhong> It basically killed HTML 3.0, which existed as HTML+ before Netscape even existed.
# [01:45] <potatis_invalido> too short attention span
# [01:46] <aho> midair = typically just one room... maybe void... maybe lava... that's about it
# [01:46] <potatis_invalido> No platforms or anything?
# [01:46] * Philip` vaguely remembers that he gave up on making Quake maps before any GUI editor was released, when you had to write the whole level's brush positions in a text file by hand (and then spend two hours computing the lighting maps)
# [01:46] <Yuhong> It delayed adoption of style sheets for years, while they invented their own CENTER and FONT tags.
# [01:46] <aho> RL only, crazy vertical knockback, the higher the enemy is in the air, the more damage they receive
# [01:47] <Yuhong> (First draft of CSS dates around the time of Netscape 0.9)
# [01:47] <aho> it's some qw game type
# [01:47] <potatis_invalido> I made a room in the .map format for Half-Life once (it's the same format as for Quake)
# [01:48] <potatis_invalido> I can't imagine what it'd be like making an entire map like that
# [01:48] <Yuhong> Reading Arjun Ray's posts will make all that clear.
# [01:48] <potatis_invalido> Are the DaDaDash levels randomly generated?
# [01:48] <aho> ye
# [01:49] <aho> there will be real ones in the future though
# [01:49] <potatis_invalido> Ok, that explains why it's so easy :P
# [01:49] <aho> and two extra twists
# [01:49] <potatis_invalido> not getting any harder, I should have said
# [01:49] <aho> http://i.imgur.com/EKhMK.png <- it sometimes creates something interesting though
# [01:49] <aho> <:
# [01:50] <potatis_invalido> Indeed
# [01:50] <erlehmann> try building concave-convex shapes
# [01:51] <aho> ~4.5kb js.gz and 59.6 for the resource blob. it's fairly compact :)
# [01:51] <potatis_invalido> Resource blob? Are all images in one file?
# [01:51] <potatis_invalido> and sounds*
# [01:52] <aho> everything
# [01:52] <aho> it's just those two files
# [01:52] <aho> check the net panel ;)
# [01:53] <potatis_invalido> How did you pull that off? Do you generate data: URIs to load the sounds and images?
# [01:53] <aho> http://mbtic.com/games/dadadash/dadadash-ogg.ibz
# [01:53] <aho> it's like mxhr, but with an index
# [01:53] <aho> name,type,length... and so forth... then a ';' followed by the b64 data uris
# [01:54] <potatis_invalido> Interesting
# [01:54] <aho> with gzip it's about the same size as a zip
# [01:54] <potatis_invalido> I might consider doing something similar for my app
# [01:55] <aho> we also tried some other stuff... like b64-ing on the client side, but that turned out to be too slow
# [01:55] <aho> we also tried tar.gz :)
# [01:55] <potatis_invalido> Do you need to b64 it though?
# [01:55] <aho> way. too. slow.
# [01:55] <aho> ye
# [01:56] <aho> there is no other way to hand those bytes over to image or audio
# [01:56] <aho> so, i do need b64 at some point
# [01:56] <potatis_invalido> Is it impossible to use data: with binary data?
# [01:56] <zewt> there's still no api for generating blobs manually, is there?
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# [01:56] <zewt> which is really what's wanted for this sort of thing
# [01:57] <zewt> well ... you could XHR the whole file to get a File, and slice the individual files, but XHR isn't too great for resource loading
# [01:57] <aho> i'm using xhr for this
# [01:58] <aho> there isn't any other option, is there?
# [01:58] <zewt> iirc some browsers simply never cache xhr :(
# [01:58] <zewt> (opera?)
# [01:59] <zewt> if you use xhr (xhr2, rather), and if the individual files aren't compressed (use HTTP compression instead), you could slice the individual Files from the XHR result, then use object URLs to load them as resources--so you never have to manipulate the data in JS directly
# [01:59] <zewt> (havn't looked at how you're doing it)
# [02:00] <aho> object urls?
# [02:00] <zewt> URL.createObjectURL(file/blob) -> URL
# [02:01] <aho> does that work with ff/opera/chrome/ie9?
# [02:02] <zewt> ff4/chrome 9+ supports it, iirc; don't know about ie9, don't think opera does
# [02:02] <zewt> also the API has been in minor flux so the name has changed (easy to work around, just fyi)
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# [02:03] <potatis_invalido> I can confirm that there's no URI object in Opera 11.10 Beta
# [02:04] <zewt> webkitURL.createObjectURL in chrome 10
# [02:04] <zewt> (and revokeObjectURL)
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# [02:08] <zewt> if you want to see why I hate data: URLs, try context menu->view image on a large canvas in FF :P
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# [02:09] <zewt> (which I *wouldn't* call a QoA issue: code that deals with URLs should not have to be engineered to deal with multiple-megabyte URLs)
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# [02:10] <aho> hmhm... interesting
# [02:11] <aho> i only knew that something like that was in the works, but i didn't know how it's called nor how it was supposed to work :>
# [02:12] <potatis_invalido> Does DaDaDash only generate games that can be solved?
# [02:12] <aho> yes
# [02:12] <aho> (the level is created in reverse)
# [02:12] <potatis_invalido> Maybe that's what I need to do
# [02:12] <potatis_invalido> Think in reverse
# [02:13] <aho> ye, that's the idea... it's 100% pure backtracking :>
# [02:13] <potatis_invalido> That did it.
# [02:13] <aho> :)
# [02:14] <potatis_invalido> It's quite entertaining for such a simple game
# [02:14] <zewt> puzzle games just make me want to write programs to solve them for me
# [02:14] <potatis_invalido> Haha
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# [02:15] <potatis_invalido> The thought does cross my mind from time to time
# [02:15] <potatis_invalido> I'm a FreeCell adict.
# [02:15] <aho> if you got java installed you can also try another overly pure game of mine: http://kaioa.com/jws/jnlp_na/fuzetsu.jnlp
# [02:15] <aho> this one is 100% bullet scraping
# [02:15] <aho> :>
# [02:16] <aho> it's a 4k game, by the way (i.e. the whole thing is <= 4096 bytes)
# [02:16] <potatis_invalido> How do you play? (I didn't miss a help screen, did I?)
# [02:17] <aho> get close to the bullets, but dont touch them with the white dot in the middle
# [02:17] <aho> that's it :>
# [02:17] <potatis_invalido> oh, ok
# [02:17] <aho> only risk/reward :)
# [02:18] <potatis_invalido> HA! HA!
# [02:18] <aho> evil, eh? ;D
# [02:19] <potatis_invalido> Indeed
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# [02:19] <aho> there are 22 or 23 levels
# [02:21] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/double_winder.png <- the level editor :)
# [02:23] <potatis_invalido> Wasn't it more work creating a level editor than it'd be doing it manually? (This is coming from someone who has almost no experience with Java)
# [02:24] <aho> there are 8 parameters per emitter and there can be up to 3 emitters (mid, left, right)
# [02:24] <aho> finding interesting values is a lot of trial and error
# [02:24] <aho> the editor took only a few hours
# [02:24] <potatis_invalido> Heh, no way I'd survive 3 of them
# [02:25] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/fuzetsu4.png
# [02:25] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/fuzetsu5.png
# [02:25] <aho> :)
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# [02:26] <aho> creating an editor is usually worth it
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# [02:27] <aho> in this case it easily saved me from /days/ of change, compile, start, test :>
# [02:28] <potatis_invalido> Right. I forgot that Java is compiled.
# [02:28] <aho> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJfO5Z2deKc <- integrated level editor :)
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# [02:29] <potatis_invalido> I love games where it's simple to make maps
# [02:29] <potatis_invalido> like Worms, Cell Block or Super Mario War
# [02:29] <potatis_invalido> or N
# [02:30] <aho> imo it's important to have a very high turn-over rate
# [02:31] <aho> doom3 was interesting in that regard
# [02:31] <potatis_invalido> If you're a Half-Life player you might have heard of Entmod. It's a server-side plugin which allows players to modify and copy world objects. You can build houses, trains and stuff.
# [02:31] <aho> you could just back and forth between the editor and the game
# [02:31] <aho> and you also got the real lighting right off the bat :)
# [02:31] <potatis_invalido> Sounds cool. I've been meaning to try Doom 3.
# [02:32] <potatis_invalido> I love the old games.
# [02:33] <potatis_invalido> I actually played an Ultimate Doom co-op game with a couple of friends a few hours ago
# [02:33] <aho> doom3 is kinda meh imo .)
# [02:33] <aho> but the engine was pretty interesting back then
# [02:33] <aho> well, you can grab the game for 5 bucks nowadays
# [02:34] <potatis_invalido> I read they plan to release the source code once Rage is done
# [02:35] <potatis_invalido> should spawn some interesting projects
# [02:35] <aho> right away?
# [02:36] <potatis_invalido> "At the QuakeCon 2009, Carmack said that he planned to petition ZeniMax Media to release the id Tech 4 source upon the release of Rage (expected in 2011)"
# [02:36] <potatis_invalido> id Tech 4 is Doom 3's engine
# [02:36] <aho> ye, rage is tech5
# [02:37] <aho> thought you meant tech5 :)
# [02:37] <potatis_invalido> Oh
# [02:37] <potatis_invalido> LOL
# [02:37] <potatis_invalido> I'm normally not impressed by graphics and such but Rage looks pretty sweet from the few images I've seen
# [02:38] <aho> hope we'll see some kind-of impressive webgl game some day :>
# [02:38] <aho> or well... some real game would be cool for starters
# [02:38] <aho> ;)
# [02:39] <aho> (the quake one doesnt count)
# [02:39] <potatis_invalido> Damn it
# [02:39] <potatis_invalido> I was just going to mention that
# [02:40] <potatis_invalido> Yes, I'd like that too
# [02:41] <potatis_invalido> JavaScript will probably have to get a little faster first though.
# [02:42] <potatis_invalido> But if we give it a few years I'm sure something will pop up
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# [02:45] <aho> speed is ok-ish nowadays, methinks
# [02:46] <aho> full screen is still missing (right?)
# [02:46] <aho> and mouse grabbing, too
# [02:46] <aho> also, audio is very lacking
# [02:47] <potatis_invalido> I agree about the first three
# [02:47] <potatis_invalido> but audio?
# [02:48] <zewt> there was some talk recently about getting started on a fullscreen API, but most of the talk was "which WG to do it in"; I don't know if that went anywhere
# [02:48] <potatis_invalido> 3D audio might be a problem, now that I think of it
# [02:48] <zewt> critical for <video> and games
# [02:48] <potatis_invalido> position audio.
# [02:48] <potatis_invalido> positional*
# [02:49] <zewt> well, there's no API designed for game-audio
# [02:49] <potatis_invalido> for simple audio you can just create a bunch of audio elements
# [02:51] <potatis_invalido> HTML and related technologies are becoming more and more like traditional program environments
# [02:51] <zewt> a full audio API is fairly complex, once you start getting into it (eg. positioning is just one part of environmental audio)
# [02:51] <potatis_invalido> like Java and .NET
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# [02:52] <aho> there isn't even panning :)
# [02:52] <potatis_invalido> So I don't think it's entirely unlikely we'd see a 3D audio API in this decade.
# [02:52] <potatis_invalido> we'll*
# [02:52] <zewt> also a tough topic: accurate sync
# [02:53] <aho> there are also some issues with current implementations. typically there is too much latency and chrome is the worst offender... it goes silent after a few minutes :v
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# [02:53] <zewt> my work has been on music games for years, so i know some of the headaches involved with audio sync :P
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# [02:59] <potatis_invalido> Its's always something, isn't it? Remember that people once were impressed by Pong. :)
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# [03:01] <aho> opera does indeed not bother with caching that xhr thing
# [03:01] <zewt> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3BMqt00z9Y <- that's what I do (... no, that's not me); I don't have any hope of ever being able to make that sort of game in a web app :|
# [03:01] <aho> even though the header says it expires in 2 years :I
# [03:02] <zewt> audio apis tend to not give enough attention to sync, so making a game that depends on sub-10ms play-position accuracy is tricky
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# [03:05] <zewt> aho: go nag some opera devs, i hate that too :P
# [03:06] <zewt> don't know off-hand if it's the only browser that does that
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# [03:09] <zewt> it's particularly odd, since opera is generally more aggressive about caching than other browsers--not more conservative
# [03:10] <zewt> (and there's no way they don't know about it)
# [03:13] <aho> just cross-checked with fiddler... it really does request the file anew
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# [03:18] <aho> http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2009/08/11/f5-and-xhr-deep-dive/
# [03:18] <aho> according to that expires in the future should be enough
# [03:19] <zewt> i remember not being able to get data cached at all--but it's been a while and I'm not sure which browser I was having trouble with
# [03:19] <zewt> it may have been some browser always revalidating even when told not to
# [03:19] <zewt> (which is a lesser crime but still very bad, forcing a round-trip)
# [03:21] <zewt> (let me know if you confirm expire/opera, btw, curious)
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# [03:24] <potatis_invalido> I'm calling it a night. It was nice talking to you.
# [03:24] <aho> nn
# [03:24] <aho> well, as i said i already use expires headers (2 years in the future) and it doesn't cache anything
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# [03:24] <aho> same thing with his test case
# [03:25] <aho> (he talks about opera 10 though. i'm using 11.)
# [03:25] <Hixie> nessy: yt?
# [03:25] <Hixie> foolip: yt?
# [03:25] <zewt> could also be one of the other 92 cache-related headers
# [03:25] <Hixie> doublec: yt?
# [03:25] <doublec> Hixie: yep
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# [03:26] <Hixie> doublec: so i'm looking at how to make MediaController work better based on the feedback so far
# [03:26] <Hixie> doublec: dunno how much you've been following that
# [03:26] <Hixie> doublec: (that's the multiple-synchronised-video/audio thing)
# [03:26] <doublec> Hixie: Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to look at that yet
# [03:26] <aho> http://pastebin.com/srkSQ2dk <- looks fine to me :f
# [03:27] <aho> ehm
# [03:27] <aho> wrong one
# [03:27] <aho> :>
# [03:27] <Hixie> doublec: k. well, quick overview: basically, it proposes an object that a <video> or <audio> element can be slaved to
# [03:27] <Hixie> doublec: and all the slaved elements are forced to play at the same rate, and stall at the same time if any of them stall for network buffering, etc
# [03:28] <aho> http://pastebin.com/KuBUSdJ1
# [03:29] <Hixie> doublec: one thing my original proposal supported somewhat accidentally due to the way it was written is that if any of the media elements were set to loop, it would act as if the looping track was copied many times over infinitely in both directions -- think like a drum beat or metronome loop playing over a song
# [03:29] <Hixie> doublec: based on feedback, i'm changing the api a bit to have the controlling object have a known duration, which of course doesn't work so well if any of the subtracks are looping
# [03:30] <Hixie> doublec: i'm curious as to whether you have any suggestions on that front
# [03:30] <Hixie> doublec: i'm thinking of basically making the looping tracks "fill" any time required to get them to fit the length of the longest non-repeating track
# [03:31] <Hixie> doublec: kinda like a repeating background image
# [03:32] <doublec> Hixie: we've got a Mozilla all hands next week where I'd like to gather the mozilla interested parties to discuss the api
# [03:32] <doublec> Hixie: and then provide feedback
# [03:33] <Hixie> doublec: in that case you should definitely let the htmlwg chairs know your timeline because they are saying we have to be done with proposals by this friday :-/
# [03:33] <Hixie> doublec: i've been trying to explain to them that that's crazy but with minimal success
# [03:33] <doublec> Hixie: that is crazy
# [03:33] <zewt> are the chairs people, or are they actually like, lawn chairs
# [03:33] <doublec> Hixie: is there a public-html thread about the deadline?
# [03:33] <zewt> from people's opinions of them in here I'm no longer certain
# [03:34] <Hixie> doublec: yeah. one minute, brb and can get it for you.
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# [03:35] <jamesr> Hixie: can't you just punt this all from html5 so the htmlwg doesn't care?
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# [03:38] <othermaciej> doublec: the deadline is effectively imposed by the LC deadline - we could punt the issue past Last Call, but currently Adrian Bateman has objected to that course of action
# [03:38] <Hixie> jamesr: i did punt it from html5. then someone escalated it and now the chairs are insisting it must be done before their arbitrary last call deadline.
# [03:38] <othermaciej> he suggested an extra week instead
# [03:39] <othermaciej> it might be possible to give a one-week extension without blowing the LC deadline
# [03:39] <othermaciej> I'm also not at all against postponing the issue if there is consensus to do that
# [03:39] <jamesr> with the idea that designing an API in one week will produce a better result than waiting for it to be actually good?
# [03:39] <othermaciej> I'm not sure why Adrian asked for the issue to be resolved in the very short time before Last Call
# [03:40] <othermaciej> but folks should feel free to ask him
# [03:40] <othermaciej> well, there's several API designs now which I think took more than a week each to create
# [03:40] <othermaciej> I think it's a matter of refining them and seeing if differences can be eliminated
# [03:40] <Hixie> i like how one vendor, who btw isn't going to ship anything for years given their ship cycle, is able to force an issue to be resolved in a few weeks but when we ask them for input we get nothing for months
# [03:40] <Hixie> othermaciej, jamesr: any opinion on the thing above btw?
# [03:40] <jamesr> i'm not familiar enough with media issues to comment intelligently
# [03:41] <Hixie> othermaciej: consensus isn't the best way to make decisions
# [03:41] <Hixie> othermaciej: also, why do we need consensus on postponing but not consensus on rushing?
# [03:43] <doublec> I'd rather not include it at all than rush an api
# [03:43] <othermaciej> Hixie: after reading the discussion thread, I kind of think the MediaController thing is ill-conceived - it's there in theory to avoid media elements having different master and slave modes, but in implementation terms, they have to have modes anyway
# [03:43] <othermaciej> Hixie: and it results in an API that can't deliver what it promises
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# [03:44] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's there to avoid making the api asymetric
# [03:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: so it seems like it's prioritizing purity over implementations
# [03:44] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's prioritising for authors.
# [03:44] <othermaciej> (I don't think it's a benefit to authors to give them an API that doesn't work)
# [03:44] <Hixie> why would it not work?
# [03:44] <Hixie> or rather what doesn't work?
# [03:44] <othermaciej> well, I'm imagining how we'd change our built-in controls to work with this API
# [03:45] <othermaciej> they'd have to basically always talk to the controller object and never use the API directly on video
# [03:45] <Hixie> same as with all the other proposals
# [03:45] <othermaciej> and without a master/slave relationship, there wouldn't even be an easy way to have a different set of controls for the auxiliary tracks
# [03:45] <Hixie> do you have an example of what you mean?
# [03:45] <othermaciej> I imagine this is true of most set of JS-authored controls that want to work generically, and not just for one page
# [03:45] <Hixie> what's an auxiliary track?
# [03:46] <othermaciej> for example, a sign language translation that displays in a separate area
# [03:46] <othermaciej> it might be that there are use cases where there isn't one clear "main" display area, but in the accessibility use cases, there generally is
# [03:47] <Hixie> if there are two video playback areas, one with "content" and one with "sign language", what controls do you expect to see on the two elements?
# [03:47] <Hixie> the two areas, i mean
# [03:47] <othermaciej> I'd expect the content one to have full controls that control the master timeline
# [03:48] <othermaciej> I would expect the sign language track to have either the same, or possibly to have reduced controls that don't actually manipulate the timeline, to reduce confusion/complexity
# [03:48] <othermaciej> I don't know what our UI people would prefer
# [03:48] <othermaciej> also we might hack the built-in fullscreen control to try to take the whole synchronized group full screen
# [03:48] <othermaciej> though I dunno exactly how we'd do that
# [03:48] <Hixie> none of this sounds hard with the MediaController API
# [03:49] <othermaciej> it's not especially hard, but it's not easier either
# [03:49] <othermaciej> the APIs on individual media elements would basically turn into an obscure thing that you should almost never use
# [03:49] <Hixie> same as if they're asymetric
# [03:49] <Hixie> except for one of the elements
# [03:49] <Hixie> where they'd be serving two purposes
# [03:49] <othermaciej> (does the MediaController API let you designate one media element as the lead, and others as auxiliary?)
# [03:50] <Hixie> it could
# [03:50] <Hixie> doesn't currently
# [03:50] <othermaciej> I think when elements are synchronized, then probably all of their APIs should control the master timeline
# [03:50] <Hixie> in most cases there isn't a lead, as fdar as i can tell
# [03:50] <othermaciej> it's probably true that for non-accessibility use cases, there isn't necessarily a lead
# [03:51] <othermaciej> anyway, I don't like rushing the design of this either :-(
# [03:51] <othermaciej> and I have to get food while there's still time
# [03:51] <othermaciej> brb
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# [03:57] <nessy> Hixie: here
# [03:58] <Hixie> nessy: trying to work out how to deal with looping of tracks in a multitrack situation, especially when the looping track is not the same length as the other tracks
# [03:58] <Hixie> nessy: any ideas?
# [03:58] * nessy reading up on discussion about .. gimme a sec
# [04:03] * nessy ok..
# [04:03] <nessy> so, it's all about what we want to see in the UI, I guess
# [04:04] <Hixie> i doubt most cases with looping would have a ui
# [04:04] <nessy> do we want individual slave tracks to have their own controls (API and displayed)?
# [04:04] <Hixie> it's more about what cases might need looping
# [04:04] <nessy> if it was for me, I'd disable individual looping
# [04:04] <Hixie> most looping is likely to be used in things like games
# [04:04] <nessy> in fact, all the functions that access the timeline, I would slave them together
# [04:05] <zewt> is there really any practical use for looping except to loop an entire, combined media?
# [04:05] <zewt> (eg. all tracks or none)
# [04:05] <nessy> what zewt says...
# [04:05] <zewt> the "metronome" thing is pretty contrived
# [04:05] <nessy> what's your game use case?
# [04:06] <Hixie> games use audio for all kinds of things
# [04:06] <zewt> game audio is way beyond <audio> anyway
# [04:06] <Hixie> e.g. background fire effects when you're in a room with a fire
# [04:06] <Hixie> music
# [04:06] <Hixie> explosions
# [04:06] <nessy> the model I have in mind for multitrack is basically to replicate for external files what in-band would do - I don't think there is any in-band use for looping individual tracks
# [04:07] <Hixie> have you ever used garage band?
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# [04:07] <zewt> (my audio engine allows beat-matching two looping music tracks to seamlessly switch from one to another; rather beyond anything current APIs would try to do, heh)
# [04:07] <nessy> yeah, but this is not an API to create a drum machine or music tracks
# [04:07] <Hixie> we'd probably want a better api for something like garage band, but for simpler cases of things like that it might make sense to just use audio
# [04:07] <nessy> I'd want that problem to be solved by an audio API
# [04:08] <Hixie> for the whole app, sure
# [04:08] <nessy> or asked otherwise: would somebody that wants to implement a game or a drum machine really want to use a multitrack media resource approach?
# [04:08] <zewt> imo, trying to address game use cases with <audio> without actually expanding it to be a full-blown sound engine API ... feels like design creep
# [04:08] <Hixie> what i'm saying is that smaller-scale parts of that might well be simple enough that people would just use <audio> for it
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# [04:09] <nessy> they wouldn't use in-band mutltirack, certainly, so why try to bend external multitrack to support it?
# [04:09] <Hixie> it's not about bending external multitrack
# [04:10] <Hixie> given an external controller, these abilities just fall out if we do it right. the question is what is the right way to do it.
# [04:10] <nessy> well, it creates a set of problems that I don't think we want to address in multitrack
# [04:11] <Hixie> what problems?
# [04:11] <nessy> such as independent looping, such as defining the duration, such as what happens with indpendent startOffset and with changes to playbackRate
# [04:11] <Hixie> those aren't problems
# [04:11] <nessy> what would be the duration of a multitrack resource that has a looping track?
# [04:11] <Hixie> those are things we have to define anyway
# [04:11] <Hixie> we can define them as "they do nothing" or we can provide a useful definition
# [04:11] <Hixie> but either way we have taoaddress them
# [04:12] <nessy> no, if we don't accept looping on an individual track, the duration of the overall composition is easier to determine
# [04:12] <nessy> the problem space is smaller
# [04:12] <Hixie> if you decide something, then the number of things you have to decide is smaller, yes
# [04:12] <roc> I hear we need to give feedback by Friday
# [04:12] <nessy> hi roc!
# [04:12] <Hixie> but the number of things you have to decide in all is still the same
# [04:13] <roc> what's up with that? We can't give decent feedback until we've implemented it, and believe it or not we won't have it implemented by Friday
# [04:13] <Hixie> oh, that reminds me, i had to get a url for doublec
# [04:13] <roc> nessy: hi
# [04:13] <nessy> yeah, do write an email on the list that you also want more time to give feedback
# [04:13] <zewt> FWIW, I'd have a duration *assigned* to looping tracks individually (which might be "infinite" if the user wants to loop forever); tracks loop for as long as they're told to; and the duration of the composition of many tracks is straightforward: the maximum duration of all tracks
# [04:13] <nessy> I've already stated that multiple times
# [04:14] <roc> which list?
# [04:14] <roc> public-html?
# [04:14] <nessy> yes
# [04:14] <nessy> reply to Adrian's message I would say
# [04:14] <Hixie> doublec, roc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Mar/0214.html
# [04:15] <nessy> search for "Timing of ISSUE-152"
# [04:15] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0746.html is adrian's e-mail
# [04:15] <nessy> well, the first one is on the a11y list and thus more an internal discussion, IMHO
# [04:15] <nessy> yeah, that second one
# [04:15] <Hixie> "internal"?
# [04:16] <nessy> well, TF-internal discussion to at least get agreement within the TF
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# [04:17] <Hixie> agreement within the TF means nothing except that it's harder to discuss the issue once it goes to the whole group since the people in the TF are invested in their agreement :-)
# [04:17] * Hixie thinks the TFs are a bad idea, but that's probably old news
# [04:17] <nessy> yes, that's why I am saying the one on the main list is more important
# [04:17] <nessy> btw: there's not necessarily agreement in the TF even when things are moved forward
# [04:17] <nessy> anyway...
# [04:20] <nessy> what is the duration of a composition that contains a looping track?
# [04:20] <Hixie> that is one of the questions we'd have to answer if we decide looping is to be supported
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# [04:20] <nessy> would it play until all non-loping tracks have completed their duration and then just continue with the looping track?
# [04:21] <nessy> to be honest, I think it's an artificial use case - a solution looking for a problem
# [04:21] <zewt> it seems it's hard to decide what to do because there are no use cases to base a design on :)
# [04:22] <Hixie> it's not a use case, it's not a solution -- it's just something we have to decide one way or the other
# [04:22] <Hixie> nessy: it's like saying that the ability to put a span inside an em inside a dfn is an artificial use case or a solution looking for a problem
# [04:22] <nessy> what things to you intend to lock into sync between the slave elements?
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# [04:23] <Hixie> based on feedback so far, playback rate
# [04:24] <nessy> also currentTime progress when playing, I guess
# [04:24] <Hixie> how do you mean?
# [04:25] <nessy> well, when you start playing one, you should start playing them all (as far as they are set to display), right?
# [04:25] <Hixie> that's the playback rate :-)
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# [04:26] <nessy> how do you jump to the same time offset across all of them?
# [04:26] <nessy> from script
# [04:26] <nessy> so you can make a common controller for all of them
# [04:26] <roc> Hixie: I have a feeling that solutions for multiple-media-resource synchronization, advanced audio API and RTC all need to be solved in an integrated way
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# [04:26] <roc> right now I think we have three trains rushing towards each other at high speed
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# [04:27] <Hixie> nessy: based on your feedback i'm planning on providing a currentTime feature in the MediaController to replace the seek() feature (that's why the looping thing became an issue -- it wasn't an issue at all with the old seek() approach, which is why i'd gone with seek() rather than a currentTime approach)
# [04:27] <nessy> lol: want to add a fourth train? HTTP adaptive streaming
# [04:27] <nessy> Hixie: I see - that explains it
# [04:27] <Hixie> roc: the RTC and multiple-track things are definitely coordinated, at least insofar as I'm working on them
# [04:28] <Hixie> roc: in fact they currently share an interface (the TrackList thing)
# [04:28] <roc> yeah
# [04:28] <nessy> oh really? … I need to check that...
# [04:29] <Hixie> roc: (that's one reason i'm hoping to make the MediaController thing be good enough to convince silvia and others, so that they are coordinated, since the other proposals aren't coordinated like that)
# [04:29] <roc> but the audio API piece is very significant
# [04:29] <Hixie> roc: agreed
# [04:29] <Hixie> roc: i need to coordinate with them more
# [04:29] <roc> audio API needs to sync multiple streams
# [04:29] <roc> with processing
# [04:29] <Hixie> unfortunately they went to hide into an xg of their own :-P
# [04:29] <Hixie> bbiab
# [04:30] <roc> audio API needs to integrate with RTC to enable big use cases like XBox 360's voice distortion
# [04:30] <roc> er, XBox Live
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# [04:32] <nessy> roc: do write about that to public-html, too - maybe that makes Adrian change his mind
# [04:33] <roc> message already sent
# [04:34] <karlcow> http://httparchive.org/interesting.php
# [04:34] <nessy> in real-time communication - do we really need to lock the local and remote video stream to each other via a controller?
# [04:34] <roc> you can't
# [04:34] <nessy> I mean: skype doesn't do that - it just displays the data that it gets as quickly as possible
# [04:35] <roc> who says we should do that?
# [04:35] <karlcow> 28% of Web pages with Error.
# [04:35] <nessy> ok, cool - I need to find out what we need tracks for RTC then...
# [04:35] <karlcow> or more exactly 28% of URIs with HTTP errors
# [04:36] <karlcow> 61% with HTTP redirects
# [04:36] <nessy> (I've not read up on the RTC proposal yet)
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# [04:36] <nessy> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/video-conferencing-and-peer-to-peer-communication.html#generatedstream
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# [04:37] <nessy> ok, there is no controller there, just the track lists
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# [04:39] <roc> I think the tracklist stuff is low-hanging fruit
# [04:39] <roc> we could just add that to media elements without any of the MediaController stuff, relatively easy to implement and addresses some important use cases
# [04:39] <roc> that seems uncontroversial to me
# [04:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: so, let me elaborate my prior use case a it more
# [04:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: let's say I have a site that embeds various videos
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# [04:41] <othermaciej> I use an existing JS library to provide custom branded controls
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# [04:42] <othermaciej> this library is written to use the regular <video> API, not MediaController, since that is what it's historically used, and it generally works if you don't synchronize additional media items, so the developer never thought to change it
# [04:43] <othermaciej> now for one video, I want to synch an external sign language translation video
# [04:43] <othermaciej> in a separate playback area
# [04:43] <othermaciej> it seems like my options are:
# [04:43] <othermaciej> - rewrite the control logic
# [04:43] <othermaciej> - switch to another JS library
# [04:43] <othermaciej> - accept broken playback controls
# [04:43] <othermaciej> that's kind of sucky
# [04:43] <othermaciej> so there have to be strong use cases to justify the model that imposes this porting cost
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# [04:44] <othermaciej> now, one thing you could do is make the playback API on synch'd videos always throw, to force you to use the media controller, so at least that kind of bug is caught sooner
# [04:45] <othermaciej> but that seems to remove the elegance and symmetry from the proposal
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# [04:47] <othermaciej> (I think the Eric/Sylvia proposal will Just Work for that case if you don't want any controls on the slave track, which most likely you do not)
# [04:48] <nessy> (note that I am not married to our proposal - I want this to be worked out properly and I am not yet sure what the best approach is - still experimenting)
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# [04:56] <Hixie> othermaciej: if we had much legacy for <video>, i'd agree
# [04:56] <Hixie> othermaciej: but we don't
# [04:56] <Hixie> othermaciej: we can just treat this as part of the original api
# [04:56] <Hixie> othermaciej: note that just using the Eric/Sylvia proposal wouldn't work either, if the slaved track was longer
# [04:57] <Hixie> othermaciej: and it wouldn't work right if it assumed that the readyState of the main media element was representative of when the media could play
# [04:57] <othermaciej> really? there's a lot of hosting sites using HTML5 video, and a lot of control libraries
# [04:57] <Hixie> othermaciej: (since the other track might still be buffering)
# [04:57] <othermaciej> I'm not down with (effectively) breaking compatibility with all current HTML5 video content
# [04:57] <Hixie> othermaciej: this wouldn't break compat with anything, it just adds a new feature
# [04:58] <othermaciej> sure, but if you use the feature, it breaks compat with any existing reusable video code you may have used
# [04:58] <othermaciej> Eric/Sylvia proposal is easily extended to make the master media element proxy more things for the whole group
# [04:58] <Hixie> othermaciej: the idea of reusing a media element as the master is a huge hack that will cause problems for years, imho
# [04:59] <othermaciej> what kind of problems do you expect it to cause?
# [05:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: it ties together the status for the whole group and the status for a single resource in such a way that you can't intuitively tell which you're looking at
# [05:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: so e.g. we'll be stuck with not having tracks longer than the master track
# [05:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: we'll be stuck with never having separate playback rate controls for individual tracks in a consistent way
# [05:00] <othermaciej> if you make it only represent status for the whole group, we won't be stuck with such things
# [05:00] <nessy> what is "working right for slaved tracks of different duration"? what do you expect should happen? it is possible to make that happen in any of the proposals IMHO
# [05:00] <othermaciej> the timeline would be max of all timelines
# [05:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: you wouldn't be able to mute the audio of just the master track
# [05:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: you wouldn't be able to seek just the master track
# [05:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: the list goes on and on and on
# [05:01] <othermaciej> separate playback rate controls for individual tracks doesn't really have much of a use case
# [05:01] <othermaciej> your suggested use cases do not seem realistic or useful as reviewed by media experts
# [05:01] <Hixie> it's just an example of something we get blocked out of
# [05:02] <Hixie> anything that relies on the api to control an individual track as opposed to the group is screwed
# [05:02] <othermaciej> seeking just the master track also seems useless
# [05:02] <Hixie> nessy: either the master's video.duration is the resource's duration (in which case you lose the ability to see the group's) or it's the group's (in which case you lose the ability to see the resource's)
# [05:02] <othermaciej> well, if we ever have real use cases for and practical implementability of individual playback control of sync'd tracks, we can add new API for that
# [05:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: you keep dismissing abilities as having no use cases but the whole point is to have a simple api that enables any use case
# [05:03] <othermaciej> right now, there aren't good use cases, and it's not practical to implement
# [05:03] <othermaciej> Hixie: you sound like an RDF guy right now
# [05:03] <Hixie> hah
# [05:03] <Hixie> based on what Jer was saying, it's quite feasible to implement a MediaController approach
# [05:03] <nessy> I'm not opposed to a MediaController approach either
# [05:04] <nessy> I think we have to solve the same problems for all of the proposals, btw
# [05:04] <othermaciej> it is, it will just have severe limitations that make the edge case use cases not really work
# [05:04] <othermaciej> and it will break compat with existing controller code if you ever use syncing
# [05:04] <Hixie> what severe limitations?
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# [05:04] <othermaciej> and poor performance if you don't hit the sweet spot
# [05:05] <Hixie> so would the other proposal
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# [05:05] <Hixie> and the existing controllers don't just work with the asymetric proposal either
# [05:05] <othermaciej> you can't actually control playback of the individual tracks separately live
# [05:06] <Hixie> the asymetric proposal allows that too, to the same extent (except that you can't do the master track for a random reason)
# [05:06] <nessy> the master is not independent of its slaves, that's right
# [05:06] <Hixie> so it would have the same "severe limitation"
# [05:06] <Hixie> (or as i would put it, and as jer put it, "quality of implementation issue")
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# [05:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: the difference between this and rdf is that in this case, we get the various abilities and a consistent api by having a _simpler_ solution
# [05:07] <othermaciej> sure, but if every implementation is going to have a QoI issue that makes a feature not practical to use, it's not helpful to say it's just a QoI issue
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# [05:07] <nessy> my main objection is whether it can be implemented, since the controller basically has its own independent timeline
# [05:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: so should we not support seeking in the current api either?
# [05:08] <othermaciej> I think it's debatable whether adding new API or making existing API modal is simpler
# [05:08] <Hixie> othermaciej: or playbackRate?
# [05:08] <nessy> however, we could always assume that the first element that is slaved to the controller is the main one to define the timeline from a sw implementation pov
# [05:08] <Hixie> the video api is full of things that have QoI issues
# [05:08] <Hixie> nessy: what do you mean by "timeline"?
# [05:09] <nessy> clock
# [05:09] <Hixie> nessy: the MediaController spec already defines that
# [05:09] <nessy> it drives the playbackRate of all the slaves
# [05:09] <nessy> so, it needs to have a clock
# [05:09] <Hixie> "All the slaved media elements of a MediaController must use the same clock for their definition of their media timeline's unit time."
# [05:09] <nessy> and in all media frameworks that I know, there is no such thing as an abstract clock - it's always bound to a specific resource
# [05:10] <Hixie> no need to define which one it is, since it doesn't matter which one it is so long as there is only noe
# [05:10] <nessy> (I'm talking implementation, not definition)
# [05:10] <Hixie> one
# [05:10] <Hixie> ah ok
# [05:10] <Hixie> i don't see the problem then
# [05:11] <Hixie> why would it be any different to implement?
# [05:11] <nessy> yeah, all I am saying is that it's probably a hack to get it implemented and not as clean as it might seem
# [05:11] <nessy> i.e. if you happen to remove during playback the one element that defines the timeline, all sorts of things may go wrong
# [05:12] <Hixie> if you remove anything during playback, you need to redo the group anyway
# [05:12] <Hixie> according to jer
# [05:12] <Hixie> so that's rather academic
# [05:12] <Hixie> also, you can do that with your proposal too :-)
# [05:12] <nessy> you could remove any slave without affecting the timeline
# [05:12] <nessy> removing the master is kinda dumb
# [05:13] <Hixie> removing a slave, according to jer, will cause stalling
# [05:13] <nessy> when you have a controller, yes, because you may need to find another element to become the timeline master
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# [05:13] <Hixie> no, in general
# [05:13] <Hixie> not because of the controller
# [05:13] <nessy> I don't thinks - that's not how I interpreted Jer's feedback
# [05:14] <nessy> s/thinks/think so/
# [05:14] <Hixie> ah, correction, he was talking about adding tracks
# [05:14] <Hixie> in any case, what's the use case for every adding or removing tracks on the fly?
# [05:14] <nessy> yeah, I guess hooking that into the master or controller would take time
# [05:15] <Hixie> it seems like a rare event, so i don't see much point worrying about it
# [05:15] <Hixie> and since both proposals have the problem, it seems academic
# [05:15] <nessy> not at all - what if you are playing a video and mid-video you turn on the audio description track?
# [05:15] <Hixie> it would already be slaved
# [05:15] <nessy> I think that use case is more common than looping ;-)
# [05:15] <Hixie> just disabled
# [05:16] <Hixie> looping of synced content isn't common at all as far as i'm aware
# [05:16] <nessy> disabled tracks aren't loaded and thus aren't progressing in time
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# [05:16] <Hixie> they can be
# [05:16] <Hixie> they certainly will be loaded
# [05:16] <nessy> (agree on the looping - I can't think of having seen that anywhere)
# [05:17] <Hixie> my point is just that the problem exists with all the proposals
# [05:17] <nessy> why would you load a resource that you're not using?
# [05:17] <Hixie> because you might use it
# [05:17] <Hixie> that's what prefetching is all about
# [05:18] <nessy> yes, but in this case prefetching doesn't make much sense for disabled tracks
# [05:18] <nessy> in particular if you have a video with 52 dubbed audio tracks where you only want to play one
# [05:18] <Hixie> *shrug* sure, the author would say which to prefetch
# [05:20] <nessy> all I am saying is that in my understanding the implementation would be a hack that would probably decide on a master video or audio anyway
# [05:20] <nessy> this does not mean, however, that we have to define the html markup and api in that way
# [05:20] <Hixie> i'm not sure i understand your use of the word "hack", but ok
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# [05:22] <nessy> a "hack" in that the concept that is defined in the controller as a clock that applies to all elements would in the implementation mean to clock of one element to which the others are slaved
# [05:22] <nessy> I can see advantages of the controller approach
# [05:23] <Hixie> but the spec doesn't say the controller has a clock
# [05:23] <Hixie> it says the slaved elements must have the same clock, that's all
# [05:23] <nessy> I would almost feel compelled to give the controller a css rendering area of its own even, so we can use css to arrange all the slave elements into that box and provide a single transport bar over all of them
# [05:24] <roc> I want to implement API to list and select in-band tracks in a single media element, and punt on the out-of-band stuff until we understand how RTC and advanced audio API fit in
# [05:24] <Hixie> (in practice you have to use the clock of the sound card. in your proposal, what would happen if the master was silent and there were two slaved audio tracks? the UA would have to use the clock of one of the audio tracks.)
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# [05:24] <roc> if the master is silent you can pretend it has an audio track of all silence and mix the slaves into it
# [05:24] <Hixie> roc: i had been hoping to punt the api for the same reason, but unfortunately nessy then escalated the issue which is how we ended up discussing it :-)
# [05:25] <nessy> I did not escalate the issue - I've not ever escalated any issue!
# [05:25] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/152 says "This issue was raised on behalf of Silvia Pfeiffer"
# [05:25] <nessy> but I certainly registered the bug
# [05:26] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9452#c8 is where the TrackerRequest keyword was added, which indeed suggests otherwise
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# [05:34] <nessy> I guess it was just raised as part of the bugs that were registered pre last call
# [05:34] <nessy> anyway...
# [05:35] <nessy> what influence does RTC have on mutltirack?
# [05:35] <Hixie> hard to know in advance
# [05:35] <Hixie> in the current proposal they share the audioTracks and videoTracks attributes
# [05:35] <Hixie> amongst other things
# [05:35] <Hixie> (like both using <video>)
# [05:35] <nessy> do you want to make use of the controller concept for rtc?
# [05:36] <Hixie> i'm not currently aware of any reason to use MediaController in the context of video conferencing, but naturally we'd have to make sure how they interact is defined
# [05:38] <nessy> or asked otherwise: why do you have a GeneratedStream API, when it is basically the same as the MediaController?
# [05:38] <nessy> aren't they basically achieving the same thing?
# [05:38] <nessy> (really trying to understand it - no criticism)
# [05:40] <Hixie> i don't understand in what way they are similar :-)
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# [05:40] <Hixie> they have nothing in common as far as i can tell
# [05:41] <nessy> a controller synchronizes multiple audio and video streams - so does a generatedStream
# [05:42] <Hixie> a generatedstream just exposes a local webcam
# [05:42] <Hixie> it doesn't do synchronisation
# [05:42] <Hixie> not in the sense that mediacontroller does
# [05:42] <nessy> so the audio and video tracks inside it are not synchronized?
# [05:42] <Hixie> they're one media stream
# [05:43] <nessy> is the difference that the GeneratedStream is creating data, while the MediaController is playing back data?
# [05:43] <Hixie> the mediacontroller doesn't play back data
# [05:43] <Hixie> it just ensures a number of <video> elements have the same clock
# [05:43] <Hixie> it's like saying a <video> is the same as a mediacontroller, which i think is equally non-sequitur, though i guess you are proposing that too :-)
# [05:43] <nessy> … and they play them back in sync, so indirectly, it does that
# [05:44] <nessy> a <video> has a controller, if you want it or not - it may not be exposed ;-)
# [05:44] <Hixie> overloading objects to do many related things is bad api design
# [05:45] <Hixie> one should just have one object per task
# [05:45] <nessy> sure
# [05:45] <Hixie> (video, in retrospect, is poorly designed because it amalgamates video fetch and video playback)
# [05:45] <nessy> I'm trying to understand the difference ...
# [05:45] <nessy> and if we say that there is a difference, then I also don't see a need to have one wait for the other to be defined
# [05:47] <Hixie> things that interact need to be designed with each other in mind
# [05:47] <Hixie> otherwise you end up with apis that look like, well, a lot of the web's apis
# [05:47] <othermaciej> fair point; though there is also value to doing things incrementally
# [05:47] <othermaciej> it is hard to strike the right balance
# [05:47] <nessy> yeah, unfortunately, it is impossible to solve all the world's problems at the same time - you end up achieving nothing
# [05:47] <Hixie> incrementally is fine too, but it risks getting things like the video element :-)
# [05:48] <Hixie> nessy: what i often do in the whatwg spec is overdesign and then comment-out large parts of the feature
# [05:48] <nessy> yeah, I learnt that recently - I was indeed curious!
# [05:48] <Hixie> nessy: the (new) drag-and-drop api being one example, where the spec already has support for a number of things that aren't in the spec, like promises and file objects (or is it blob objects)
# [05:49] <Hixie> or like automatic ducking in the multitrack feature
# [05:49] <Hixie> which is in there but commented out
# [05:49] <nessy> is there a way to view the spec will all your commented out things>
# [05:49] <nessy> ?
# [05:49] <Hixie> view > source :-)
# [05:49] <nessy> lol
# [05:50] <nessy> ok… I might browse the repository - I find that easier
# [05:50] <Hixie> (though you're better off just looking at the /source file)
# [05:50] <roc> Hixie: I think there could be an indirect relationship between RTC and multitrack
# [05:50] <nessy> anyway - I am planning to try and design the multitrack with a conroller in mind, too, independently of what you did, and see where that takes me
# [05:50] <nessy> … might end up having a clearer view of things then
# [05:51] <nessy> roc: how so? do you have a hunch?
# [05:51] <roc> Hixie's RTC proposal defines Streams which can be used as sources for media elements
# [05:52] <roc> maybe that feature isn't literally in Hixie's draft, but it's clearly coming
# [05:52] <Hixie> it's there
# [05:52] <Hixie> there's even an example
# [05:52] <roc> therefore multitrack synchronization needs to work with Streams
# [05:52] <Hixie> search for "Snapshot Kiosk"
# [05:53] <roc> furthermore
# [05:53] <roc> if we define an advanced audio API based on Streams
# [05:53] <roc> (including integrating existing audio API proposals with Streams)
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# [05:54] <roc> then that API will almost certainly allow mixing of multiple sources
# [05:54] <roc> which will need to be synchronized
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# [05:55] <roc> which creates considerable overlap with MediaController and related proposals
# [05:55] <nessy> GeneratedStream is the thing that synchronizes them, right?
# [05:55] <Hixie> GeneratedStream is just a representation of the local WebCam's output
# [05:56] <Hixie> it doesn't synchronise anything
# [05:56] <Hixie> you can think of it as a remote stream
# [05:56] <Hixie> rtsp://whatever/foo
# [05:57] <roc> in particular any advanced audio API is likely to need a way to get a Stream (or equivalent) representing an arbitrary media resource, and mix those Streams together in a synchronized way, optionally with effects
# [05:58] <roc> at which point you almost have the functionality of a MediaController
# [05:58] <roc> even if the APIs stay unrelated (I'm not sure if that's wise or not), the implementation probably should have much in common
# [05:59] <roc> at least in Gecko, where we're not shackled by some media framework
# [05:59] <roc> am I making sense?
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# [06:03] <roc> I guess not :-)
# [06:03] * nessy is thinking...
# [06:04] <nessy> well, if the implementation shares a lot, that would not have much of an effect on the markup and API, I guess
# [06:04] <Hixie> hmm...
# [06:05] <nessy> I am trying to understand how the streams are synchronized in the rtc proposal
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# [06:07] <Hixie> having added a combined currentTime feature, i wonder whether to just force the slaved tracks to be aligned up and not support offsets at all
# [06:07] <Hixie> since offsets would have to be implicit, which is confusing
# [06:07] <Hixie> hmm
# [06:08] * Hixie isn't liking the implications of having to add currentTime to the media controller
# [06:08] <Hixie> nessy: nothing synchronises anything in the PeerConnection/GeneratedStream world
# [06:08] <Hixie> nessy: there's nothing to synchronise
# [06:09] <nessy> a local audio and video stream that are recorded and then sent to the other side would need to be synchronized to each other
# [06:09] <Hixie> they're one stream
# [06:09] <nessy> s/recorded/captured/
# [06:10] <Hixie> that's like asking what synchronises the audio and video in a .mov file
# [06:10] <Hixie> they're never _not_ synchronised
# [06:10] <nessy> yes, and there is an answer: the container
# [06:10] <Hixie> same answer applies here
# [06:10] <nessy> are they being put in a container?
# [06:11] <nessy> by the GeneratedStream object?
# [06:11] <nessy> then it does the synchronization
# [06:11] <Hixie> the user agent serialises them (with a container) as part of RTP
# [06:11] <Hixie> (or as part of the StreamRecorder when recording to a file)
# [06:12] <Hixie> this is an entirely different, and far less interesting, kind of synchronisation than what we're talking about with MediaController
# [06:12] <nessy> anyway … more importantly your question before...
# [06:13] <nessy> I would agree that we should not support offsets
# [06:13] <Hixie> well we'd still support offsets, either now or eventually
# [06:13] <Hixie> the question is when we do, what should the api look like
# [06:13] <nessy> the by far most common use case for multitrack is same length audio and video tracks that all start at the same time and all end at roughly the same time
# [06:14] <Hixie> that's a self-fulfilling prophecy if we design it to only truly cater for that use case
# [06:15] <nessy> maybe there are two fundamentally different use cases that we are trying to satisfy with the same approach
# [06:15] <Hixie> if we instead do as roc is suggesting, and design this with the audio api in mind, then "drum machines" as you call them (and more specifically, the audio synchronisation in video games) might well be far more common use cases
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# [06:16] <Hixie> on the long run
# [06:17] <Hixie> even if we don't support that, i think things like director's commentaries are going to be a major use case, and they're often not the same length as the video
# [06:17] <nessy> they still start at the same time
# [06:17] <Hixie> usually
# [06:17] <Hixie> though often they're silent for a while at the start
# [06:17] <nessy> overhang at the end is not as big a problem as different playback positions for each track
# [06:17] <Hixie> different playback positions isn't a problem :-)
# [06:18] <nessy> how do you create a common transport bar then?
# [06:18] <Hixie> we can easily have the media controller define a zero point and a total duration that spans the earliest point to the latest point, taking offsets into account
# [06:19] <zewt> for a commentary track that doesn't start immediately, that can probably be done by having a timestamp offset in the file itself, at authoring time to match the video track it's for--rather than setting it by hand in script
# [06:19] <nessy> ok, then currentTime would be the time on that transport bar - where is the problem?
# [06:19] <Hixie> nessy: you're the one who said there was a problem :-)
# [06:20] <nessy> you said:
# [06:20] <Hixie> zewt: yeah, that would be ideal
# [06:20] <nessy> "having added a combined currentTime feature, i wonder whether to just force the slaved tracks to be aligned up and not support offsets at all
# [06:20] <nessy> since offsets would have to be implicit, which is confusing"
# [06:22] <Hixie> here's what i just wrote in the e-mail i'm writing in response to all the feedback:
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# [06:22] <Hixie> Originally, the tracks could be offset because their .currentTime attributes were advanced at a fixed rate, and the MediaController didn't have any concept of the currentTime, so just changing the currentTime of a media element offset the video by the difference between the old and new values. I guess theoretically we can still do that, but it becomes kind of weird that you can change the currentTime of each video in
# [06:23] <Hixie> oh that didn't wrap right
# [06:23] <Hixie> second try:
# [06:23] <Hixie> Originally, the tracks could be offset because their .currentTime
# [06:23] <Hixie> attributes were advanced at a fixed rate, and the MediaController didn't
# [06:23] <Hixie> have any concept of the currentTime, so just changing the currentTime of
# [06:23] <Hixie> a media element offset the video by the difference between the old and
# [06:23] <Hixie> new values.
# [06:23] <Hixie> I guess theoretically we can still do that, but it becomes kind of weird
# [06:23] <Hixie> that you can change the currentTime of each video in turn, and when you
# [06:23] <Hixie> change the first one, the controller's "duration" changes, and then
# [06:23] <Hixie> suddenly when you change the last slaved media elements's currentTime, the
# [06:24] <Hixie> duration changes back.
# [06:25] <nessy> all good thoughts!
# [06:28] <nessy> I think we're starting to feel the pain between close and loose coupling
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# [07:15] <Hixie> actually i guess i have to support the offset thing, because otherwise setting currentTime on the video would be even weirder
# [07:15] <Hixie> i wonder what nessy did in her proposal
# [07:16] <Hixie> "currentTime of the slaves is turned into a readonly attribute"
# [07:16] <Hixie> o_O
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# [07:16] <Hixie> nessy: what does "currentTime of the slaves is turned into a readonly attribute" mean in your proposal?
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# [07:17] <nessy> it means that they slaves are slaved to the timeline of the master and cannot seek on their own
# [07:18] <Hixie> so what happens when you set a slave's .currentTime attribute?
# [07:18] <nessy> however, they may not be fully in sync with the master, so the currenTime does display where they are actually at
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# [07:18] <nessy> nothing - it's rejected
# [07:18] <nessy> but that was something I randomly made up - not sure it makes sense
# [07:18] <Hixie> the setter just ignores the new value?
# [07:18] <nessy> it was part of slaving everything to the master
# [07:18] <nessy> yes
# [07:18] <Hixie> huh
# [07:19] <nessy> I guess it would be possible - if the master is paused - to set the slave and play with it individually
# [07:20] <nessy> but as soon as the master (or controller) is touched, then the slaves would re-sync with it
# [07:21] <Hixie> it seems really weird to have a mutable attribute whose value changes but which ignores values it is set to
# [07:22] <Hixie> i wonder how else to handle this
# [07:22] <Hixie> i guess i'll have to support the offsets after all
# [07:22] <Hixie> hmm
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# [07:32] <nessy1> curious: what does it have to do with offsets?
# [07:32] <Hixie> ignoring a new value in a mutable attribute is bad api design, so imho not an option
# [07:32] <nessy1> ok, fair enough - but how else to deal with it?
# [07:32] <Hixie> exactly
# [07:33] <Hixie> if we have to make it do something, what is the logical thing for it to do?
# [07:33] <Hixie> i see two options:
# [07:33] <nessy1> you could play independently, I guess
# [07:33] <Hixie> making all the currentTimes into proxies for each other, and making it just change that element's position
# [07:33] * nessy1 is on a ferry, so may drop out randomly, sorry
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# [07:33] <Hixie> now if we grant that the elements must remain synced, then the second is equivalent to setting an offset
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# [07:34] <Hixie> the former seems bad because there's no intuitive reason why setting one track's position should affect other tracks, especially since it might set the other tracks to entirely different numbers
# [07:34] <Hixie> (since they might have different "zero" times)
# [07:34] <nessy1> except if you interpret the second as a local positioning only - so when the user changes the currentTime of the controller, it snaps back into place
# [07:35] <Hixie> that would be essentially useless, especially while playing
# [07:35] <Hixie> designing useless APIs is also bad api design :-)
# [07:35] <nessy1> how so?
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# [07:35] <Hixie> it's essentially the same as saying it's ignored
# [07:36] <nessy1> I can see it very useful - e.g. I have a sign language track and a main video - I watch both - I miss some parts in the sign language and just scroll back on that to watch something again - then I play the full composition again in sync
# [07:36] <Hixie> if you can play one track and the others don't move then it's not synced...
# [07:36] <nessy1> not when you directly interact with it
# [07:37] <nessy1> isn't that the beauty of a controller?
# [07:37] <Hixie> the beauty of a controller is that the api isn't asymetric
# [07:37] <nessy1> that it only controls when interacted with it and otherwise leaves the slaves alone?
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# [07:38] <Hixie> you can't interact with a controller, it's a js object, it has no UI
# [07:38] <Hixie> i'm not sure i follow what you're proposing
# [07:38] <Hixie> anyway i have to go to bed now
# [07:38] <nessy1> well, if they are all slaved together, then I don't see why the first option doesn't make sense
# [07:38] <Hixie> i'll finish this tomorrow night i guess
# [07:38] <nessy1> no worries
# [07:38] <nessy1> nn
# [07:38] <nessy1> (it's hard!)
# [07:39] <Hixie> this is by orders of magnitude not what i'd call hard, it's just finicky
# [07:39] <Hixie> if you think this is hard you should try writing the html parser spec :-)
# [07:40] <Hixie> nn
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# [08:56] <zcorpan> Hixie: i'm happy to review books
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# [08:57] <zcorpan> at least if "review" means "point out errors to the author", not "publish a review to make the book sell more copies"
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# [09:05] <VISHAL> Hi
# [09:05] <VISHAL> Hope this is the right channel to ask about html5
# [09:10] <VISHAL> i am trying to access the server to get some data using ajax aplication is on same server but it shows Origin null is not allowed by Access-Control-Allow-Origin
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# [09:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: there's a problem with overlaying a sign-language video and using native controls
# [09:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: because the overlaid video overlaps the native controls
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# [09:27] * zcorpan filed a bug
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# [09:34] <hsivonen> what's the most realistic documentation of mutation events?
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# [10:54] <gsnedders> Where does WebIDL forbid assignment to read only attributes in the ES binding?
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# [10:58] <gsnedders> Oh, "The attribute setter is undefined if the attribute is declared readonly and has neither a [PutForwards] nor a [Replaceable] extended attribute declared on it"
# [10:59] <gsnedders> Which means that the exact behaviour depends upon strict-mode
# [11:02] <foolip> Hixie, I'm here now
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# [11:14] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
# [11:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes]
# [11:18] <jgraham> Lachy: 00:34 < Hixie> anyway i have to go to bed now
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# [11:19] <jgraham> I know that isn't always a reliable indicator, but it was 4 hours ago
# [11:20] <Lachy> jgraham, "00:34" is 11 hours ago, unless you're running in a weird timezone
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# [11:21] <jgraham> Yes the server is in the US somewhere and I am too lazy to change the timezone in irssi
# [11:21] <Lachy> ok
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# [11:23] <zcorpan> ok i have updated http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
# [11:24] <zcorpan> i guess i should set the date to 5th also
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# [11:25] <zcorpan> there
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# [11:41] <jgraham> Hixie: BTW I might also be interested in doing book review, if they need more volunteers (assuming the same definition as zcorpan)
# [11:44] <jgraham> MikeSmith: BTW, as gsnedders reminded me, I will not be around on 20th May, and possibly some of the following week
# [12:00] <hsivonen> anyone got an insertAdjacentHTML test suite_
# [12:00] <hsivonen> ?
# [12:03] <jgraham> I don't at least
# [12:17] <hsivonen> googling for mutation events shows an unfortunate interest in them
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# [12:36] <hsivonen> Someone seem to believe that whatwg members want to filter Norm: http://twitter.com/#!/gimsieke/status/51567252096548865
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# [13:58] <MikeSmith> jgraham: how about the week of May 8 to 14?
# [13:58] <jgraham> MikeSmith: That is good for me, but before gsnedders finishes his exams
# [13:58] <MikeSmith> oh
# [13:59] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm busy on the 20th as well
# [13:59] <MikeSmith> but free after that
# [13:59] <jgraham> I will *probably* be free the following week
# [14:00] <jgraham> Not sure about gsnedders though
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# [14:00] <MikeSmith> OK, let's see what he says when he's back here
# [14:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: doc looks good
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# [14:01] <MikeSmith> I will try to get it staged up today at http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-diff-20110405/
# [14:03] <MikeSmith> hmm "The action and formaction attributes are no longer allowed to have the empty string as value."
# [14:04] * MikeSmith tries to remember if any validator fix has been made for that yet
# [14:04] <MikeSmith> oh yeah, value is common.data.uri.non-empty
# [14:06] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: cool
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# [14:14] <hsivonen> wow. this time writing test cases really pays off
# [14:14] * hsivonen is implementing insertAdjacentHTML
# [14:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: Planning to release the tests?
# [14:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes, in the "pushed to m-c" sense
# [14:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: other publication depends on how easy it is to repurpose mochitests as HTML WG tests
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# [14:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: the tests are now public but not necessarily useful outside mochitest: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=523283&action=diff
# [14:36] <volkmar> someone knows what could be the labels attribute use case? (I see a few internal browser stuff but not for authors)
# [14:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: Is the execution flow in HTML WG test harness one-to-one mappable to mochitest yet?
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# [14:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think the answer to your question is probably "no" although I don't understand the question.
# [14:50] <jgraham> One could write a MochiTest wrapper for the HTML WG harness
# [14:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: could I just take the tests that I linked to above, change the assertion function names and have it work?
# [14:50] <jgraham> No
# [14:50] <hsivonen> (maybe adding some kind of explicit finish() call)
# [14:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok :-(
# [14:51] <zcorpan> jgraham: btw, it'd be nice with a second version of t.step() that returns a function
# [14:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'd really like to get to a point where the difference between Mochtest and HTML WG tests is just trivialities in naming that can be addressed with a simple wrapper
# [14:52] <hsivonen> but I really don't expect to spend the time to adapt mochitests to .step() in order to contribute
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# [15:04] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yes, I was thinking t.step_func or so
# [15:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: It would be trivial to write a wrapper that collected the results of a HTMLWG test and returned them to mochitest
# [15:05] <jgraham> s/HTMLWG/testharness.js/
# [15:05] <jgraham> zcorpan: I can add that now if you need it
# [15:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: what about the other way round?
# [15:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't know about the other way around because I don't know how MochiTest exposes its test results
# [15:07] <jgraham> testharness.js has callbacks for each test that completes and for the whole suite completing
# [15:08] <jgraham> So you would just hook into those and do something like function on_result(test) {is(test.result === test.PASS, test.message)}
# [15:08] <jgraham> (and hook on_result up to the right callbacks)
# [15:10] <zcorpan> jgraham: that'd be nice
# [15:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: what about window.onerror?
# [15:16] <jgraham> hsivonen: What about it?
# [15:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: are tests that rely on window.onerror now accepted in HTML WG test submissions?
# [15:17] <jgraham> Rely on it in what way? Tests that test it are fine
# [15:18] <jgraham> Tests that require it when they don't need to seem extremely dubious to me
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# [15:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: If something in the global scope fails, it is caught by window.onerror
# [15:19] <hsivonen> which would matter if we submitted tests that failed in some UA
# [15:19] <jgraham> hsivonen: In general relying on that is discouraged, not least becase when testing window.onerror one will need exceptions that propogate to the global scope
# [15:22] <zcorpan> jgraham: step_func would support only one argument, right? javascript doesn't support passing along an arbitrary number of arguments, does it
# [15:23] <jgraham> zcorpan: Sure it does
# [15:24] <zcorpan> oh?
# [15:24] <hsivonen> I think Mozilla needs someone whose primary work item is wrapping HTML WG tests into the mochitest reporting system and wrapping mochitests into the HTML WG reporting system
# [15:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: http://hoppipolla.co.uk/tests/insert_adjacent_html.html is a very quick transliteration, which probably has bugs
# [15:27] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: 8 to 14th definitely can't do. Week after the 20th I *might* be able to do. Almost certainly end of that is doable.
# [15:27] <MikeSmith> ok
# [15:29] <Workshiva> zcorpan: apply is your friend
# [15:29] <jgraham> Workshiva: Or your enemy
# [15:30] <Workshiva> Only if you mistreat it
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# [15:34] <zcorpan> ah
# [15:34] * zcorpan doesn't know the javascript fu
# [15:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: there are somefailures in the translation in my build that passes the mochitest
# [15:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: all "Should have had <a> as next sibling" tests throw
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# [15:36] <hsivonen> and tests 30 though 33 say expected is undefined
# [15:36] <jgraham> so you ant to be able to do something like something.some_event = t.step_func(function(e) {assert_equals(1, e.a)}) or something?
# [15:37] <zcorpan> yes
# [15:38] <zcorpan> so one argument is good enough for me
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# [15:42] <Workshiva> Just make sure you get an argument and not abuse
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# [15:44] <jgraham> hsivonen: typo, fixed
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# [15:46] <jgraham> Oh, I missed the "script should not have run" bits
# [15:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: now all tests pass
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# [15:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: Fancy cleaning up the "script should not have run" bits (e.g. by setting a flag in the script and checking its value doesn't change) and submitting to HTML WG?
# [15:52] <jgraham> Or I could do that I suppose…
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# [16:02] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I guess a more reasonable question from my POV is when is the latest the meeting can be to suit you?
# [16:03] <MikeSmith> the end of that week I guess
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# [16:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: I can do it, but if you are already doing it, go ahead
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# [16:12] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: mmhmm, maybe doable
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# [16:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: Am I missing something on the RegExp.prototype.compile thread?
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# [16:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm sure I am.
# [16:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK, your reply makes sense to me
# [16:21] <gsnedders> jgraham: At least it makes sense to someone
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# [17:02] * zcorpan notes that there's no EventSourceSync for workers
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# [17:02] <zcorpan> but maybe that doesn't make any sense
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# [17:59] <zewt> ... websql stopped because sqlite was too good? heh
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# [18:10] <TabAtkins> zewt: More precisely, sqlite was "good enough" that nobody seriously wanted to write an independent implementation. It's still not very good, though.
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# [18:11] <TabAtkins> (We're currently using sqlite as the backing store for indexeddb, and it's pretty slow and horrible. We're writing a specialized backing store just for it right now.)
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# [18:11] <zewt> sqlite is pretty excellent; it's definitely not "slow and horrible"
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> Tell that to our indexeddb folks.
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# [18:12] <zewt> idb seems like a heinous wheel reinvention; the world doesn't need another completely distinct database vocabulary
# [18:12] <zewt> (vs. sql)
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> indexeddb is a pretty standard simple object store.
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# [18:14] <zewt> and they're spending all kinds of time trying to solve things like "how do we define multi-key indexes with different orderings on each key", stuff which is already solved in SQL
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> Yes?
# [18:15] <zewt> yes?
# [18:15] <zewt> sorry, that's not a very meaningful response. heh
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> SQL is still a relational model, which, for whatever reason, a lot of people simply can't wrap their heads around. I don't understand why, because I found relational algebra pretty trivial, but whatever.
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> Linear object stores appear to be much more intuitive to most people.
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> And then we need to find a way to map more advanced concepts onto the simpler model, in a clean and understandable way.
# [18:17] <zewt> i can't say i have much sympathy for people who can't understand SQL. heh
# [18:17] <zewt> basic stuff.
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> I have sympathy for developers in general. That's why I obsess so much over things being simple in my specs.
# [18:19] <Philip`> Given how many inexperienced people manage to develop web sites with PHP+MySQL, it seems it's understable enough to get by
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# [18:19] <TabAtkins> Have you looked at their databases?
# [18:19] * TabAtkins shudders.
# [18:19] <zewt> heh, that may not be the most flattering comparison if you consider how secure those sites probably are on the whole :|
# [18:19] <Philip`> s/understable/understandable/
# [18:20] <Philip`> Their databases are probably no worse than their PHP code :-)
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# [18:20] <TabAtkins> Point. ^_^
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# [18:21] <Philip`> They've probably never heard of relation algebra but that doesn't stop them using the tools to solve their problems
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> Indeed, and the relational algebra does *not* help them solve the problem. They just bodge on and create something pretty bad. We can offer them something that more closely matches their intuitive model, so when they just throw something together it's not as bad.
# [18:23] <zewt> what bothers me a lot, though, is the notion that WebSQL development died because everyone used sqlite--that's exactly what they should be doing
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> No, because then the web depends on sqlite's bugs, rather than the spec.
# [18:23] <zewt> sqlite is in a small category of libraries that are so widely-used, heavily tested and robust that, for tasks it's designed for, it's generally a really bad idea to not use them (along with eg. zlib, libpng/jpeg, etc)
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> All of those latter libraries definitely have problems as well, and we'd be better off if we spent the effort to reimplement them.
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> They're just "good enough" that we don't do so.
# [18:24] <zewt> none of those libraries need reimplementing.
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> Luckily, the problems with those libraries are almost completely hidden from the web author. Exposing sqlite via websqldb means its problems *aren't* hidden.
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> Again, ask our devs. I've heard a lot of chatter about people wanting to reimplement libpng, for example, due to its horribleness.
# [18:26] <Philip`> Seems pretty typical for programmers to want reimplement everything - you always think you can do better yourself
# [18:27] <zewt> heh
# [18:27] <zewt> i'm not immune from NIH, but i'd never go there for that set of libraries
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# [18:32] <Philip`> (Usually you *can* do better, because you've got the experience of the old design and an extra decade of research, and better development tools and practices)
# [18:32] <Philip`> (which makes it dangerously tempting)
# [18:33] <zewt> oh, you could do better--but not enough better, IMO, to warrant throwing away the extra decade of testing and real-world use
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# [18:34] <zewt> (personally, zlib's buffering API always annoys me when I have to use it, for example, but everyone's used to it)
# [18:35] <Philip`> (API problems are usually the easiest thing to resolve - just stick a wrapper API around it)
# [18:35] <zewt> yeah.
# [18:36] <Philip`> (libpng's use of setjmp is kind of nasty, but not enough to really matter)
# [18:37] <zewt> oh yeah, i forgot about that. lua does that too
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> I think that's one of the things that annoys some of our devs a lot.
# [18:37] <zewt> that's pretty much wrappable too, i think.
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# [18:40] <Philip`> The more important problems are probably things like libjpeg using a poor decoding algorithm (given e.g. http://cbloomrants.blogspot.com/2011/02/02-13-11-jpeg-decoding.html)
# [18:43] <Philip`> but then it's nice to fix the problems as non-disruptively as possible, e.g. change the implementation but don't redesign the whole API unless it's really necessary, and definitely don't make a whole new file format (e.g. WebP) that's incompatible with everybody else in the world
# [18:43] <zewt> i'd sooner hope that improvements like that would make their way into libjpeg, not replace it outright
# [18:44] <zewt> of course, that depends on how flexible libjpeg's internals are (which I have never needed to look at--which is a major part of why I like libjpeg so much :)
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# [18:49] <stefan-_> hi
# [18:49] <stefan-_> how safe in terms of browser compat is it to use a contentEditable based editor?
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> It's not.
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> At least, not if you want to use execCommand().
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> If you're willing to roll your own editting commands, then it's okay.
# [18:52] <stefan-_> just for simple formatting (bold, underline, etc)
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# [18:53] <stefan-_> http://www.freshcode.co.za/plugins/jquery.contentEditable/demo.html
# [18:53] <stefan-_> im using this one currently
# [18:53] <stefan-_> seems to work ok in ie6 and chrome so far
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# [18:55] <stefan-_> so what you mean with rolling out my own editing commands?
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# [18:56] <stefan-_> http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/execCommand.html
# [18:56] <stefan-_> nice
# [18:56] <stefan-_> that should be satisfactory
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# [18:58] <micheil> Hixie: do you know if all vendors currently implementing websockets support the Events IDL?
# [18:58] <micheil> (as in WebSocket inherits from the Events api)
# [19:00] <jgraham> micheil: what do you actually mean?
# [19:00] <jgraham> All relevant browsers implement DOM events…
# [19:00] <micheil> well, each websocket instance has the .addListener methods
# [19:01] <micheil> is a websocket guaranteed to inherit from DOMEvents
# [19:02] <jgraham> By the spec, sure
# [19:02] <jgraham> browsers can have bugs ofc
# [19:02] <jgraham> If you want to ensure that they don't you'll have to test
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# [20:53] * beowulf resents jgraham's suggestion that work must be done before cakes can be had
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# [21:19] <jgraham> There is cake?
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# [21:20] <bfrohs> The cake is a lie.
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# [22:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you have access to the @whatwg twitter?
# [22:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen: wondered if you could RT https://twitter.com/zcorpan/status/53548207921315840 from @whatwg (or write a new tweet)
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# [22:27] <antti_s> is there an offline html5 validator available? (other than a local instance of validator.nu)
# [22:27] <Ms2ger> That's the only one I know
# [22:28] <zcorpan> is there an html5 validator other than validator.nu?
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# [22:37] <karlcow> zcorpan: validator.w3.org but which is the same engine than validator.nu. I do not know another implementations of html5 validation. Unfortunately.
# [22:38] <zcorpan> yeah would be nice with some competition there - i'd like a validator that was tightly integrated with browser dev tools
# [22:39] <zcorpan> where clicking an error would bring up the relevant element in the dom tree view
# [22:40] * bfrohs misses his old validator/dev tool that did exactly that
# [22:41] <zewt> out of curiosity, when is that more useful than going to the corresponding source line?
# [22:42] <zcorpan> there might not be a source line if you're doing stuff with script
# [22:42] <zewt> i suppose if there were any in-place validators that could validate a DOM tree directly, eg. to validate dynamic content
# [22:43] <zcorpan> with today's web apps, what the validator sees is not so useful to validate
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# [22:52] <jgraham> By the time you have a DOM you missed half the errors anyway
# [22:52] <jgraham> Of course you can collect those up at the time
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# [22:53] <zcorpan> sure, parse errors would be logged too
# [22:53] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Mar/0016
# [22:53] <zcorpan> also those from innerHTML etc, which could point to the line of script where it occurred
# [22:54] <karlcow> DOM SpellChecker by Sean Palmer
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# [22:57] <zcorpan> karlcow: is that just thoughts or running code?
# [22:58] <karlcow> zcorpan: thoughts I think. But Sean Palmer is known to hack too. So I do not know if he tried
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# Session Close: Fri Apr 01 00:00:00 2011

The end :)