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- # Session Start: Sat Apr 09 00:00:00 2011
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [00:00] <jgraham> It seems quite like that applies to many kinds of scripts as well
- # [00:01] <Hixie> and we're going crazy trying to make js faster, to the point of introducing background workers
- # [00:01] <Hixie> and never introducing sync APIs
- # [00:01] <Hixie> there's only so much we can do about existing issues
- # [00:02] <Hixie> but we shouldn't introduce new ones
- # [00:02] <jgraham> None of that is really relevant to the fact that jQuery has a parent selector and CSS does not
- # [00:02] <jgraham> I mean a faster js engine will help a bit
- # [00:02] <jgraham> But it is mostly DOM speed
- # [00:02] <AryehGregor> jQuery doesn't have to evaluate selectors anywhere near as often as CSS.
- # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Browsers could have a parent selector for querySelector(), but not for actual stylesheets.
- # [00:03] <jgraham> It depends what you are doing with it
- # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Or so I've been told.
- # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Plus, parent selectors break incremental rendering arbitrarily badly.
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- # [00:04] <Hixie> so does :last-child, to be fair
- # [00:04] <AryehGregor> (although I guess :nth-child with negative numbers can be pretty bad too)
- # [00:04] <AryehGregor> :last-child is fairly limited in the damage it can do.
- # [00:04] <Hixie> fair enough
- # [00:04] <jgraham> Anyway I am not arguing for parent
- # [00:05] <Hixie> you brought it up :-)
- # [00:05] <jgraham> I don't think outline selectors have the same level of problems
- # [00:05] <Hixie> well if you want to put the outline algorithm into a css selector implementation, be my guest :-)
- # [00:05] <Hixie> i don't think other UAs will rush to follow though :-)
- # [00:05] <jgraham> At least the mutations that affect them are rather constrained
- # [00:07] <TabAtkins> "section section h1" is a pretty bad selector to use instead of ":heading(3)". :/
- # [00:07] <jgraham> But I could be wrong
- # [00:07] <TabAtkins> (Sorry I'm late with the response - I was shanghaid into a standards discussion.)
- # [00:08] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'm thinking more something like h1:ancestor-count(:matches(section, article, nav, aside), 3)
- # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Holy jeezus, no wonder you're concerned about performance.
- # [00:09] <Hixie> (though not specifically that)
- # [00:09] <Hixie> actually that one would be really fast
- # [00:10] <Hixie> it just has to do a count on the ancestor chain, applying a cachable selector at each level
- # [00:10] <Hixie> that's amongst the fastest selectors we have
- # [00:10] <TabAtkins> It's as fast as a descendant selector is in anyone except current Webkit.
- # [00:10] <Hixie> my point re performance was regarding something that had to implement the outline algorithm, which is a whole different level of perf pain
- # [00:11] <Hixie> little slower that descendant selector, but trivially so probably, yeah
- # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Seems to be no more painful than namespaces. ^_^
- # [00:11] <Hixie> well the above wasn't a concrete proposal
- # [00:11] <Hixie> i just meant that we should provide generic tools, not something hard-coded for HTML
- # [00:11] <TabAtkins> I think we should provide both.
- # [00:11] <Hixie> hard-coding for HTML is only a good idea when the alternative is completely out of control or impossible
- # [00:12] <Hixie> but anyway
- # [00:12] <Hixie> i trust y'all to do a good job here
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- # [00:13] <TabAtkins> I submit that h1:ancestor-count(:matches(section, article, nav, aside), 3) is completely out of control.
- # [00:14] <Hixie> that was just an indication of the general intent, not a concrete proposal
- # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Dunno how you'd make a general ability substantially more consise.
- # [00:14] <Hixie> i'd have to look at common use cases to have an actual proposal to make
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- # [00:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: can you confirm that i read the decision correctly on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10066 ?
- # [00:39] <Hixie> man this makes a mess of ARIA
- # [00:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: sure, what should I check?
- # [00:40] <Hixie> last comment
- # [00:40] <othermaciej> I see, you have a comment
- # [00:40] <othermaciej> ok, lemme pull up the decision and CP to double check
- # [00:40] <Hixie> the reason i ask is that if i'm correct, sam's decision seems to leave the conformance requirements in a really inconsistent state
- # [00:41] <Hixie> e.g. <button> can be a menuitemradio, a menuitemcheckbox, a radio, but not a checkbox.
- # [00:41] <Hixie> and a <button> can be a link, which makes no sense but i presume is intentional
- # [00:42] <Hixie> similarly, <h1> can be a menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio, but not a checkbox or a radio
- # [00:42] <Hixie> i don't really understand what school of language design these decisions would stem from
- # [00:42] <othermaciej> it looks like you have copied the changes and exclusions correctly
- # [00:42] <othermaciej> now checking the delta
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- # [00:44] <hober> Hixie: I guess I should have said, in my response on that poll, that my list of crazy element/role combos wasn't intended to be complete
- # [00:44] <hober> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-129-objection-poll/results#xfigure
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- # [00:45] <Hixie> ah, so the school of design sam followed is the "have no idea what you're doing and try to crib off someone else"?
- # [00:45] <Hixie> sigh
- # [00:46] <Hixie> in other news, anyone know how one goes about reverting a specific revision in svn?
- # [00:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: re reverting, best way is to reverse-apply the diff
- # [00:47] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think you have correctly captured what the decision says
- # [00:47] <Hixie> doesn't svn have a way to do a reverse merge or something that takes into account all the changes after the revision so that i get fewer conflicts, or something?
- # [00:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: ok. i guess i'll apply it and fork for whatwg? or maybe just apply it and fix it in a few years once people aren't paying attention anymore.
- # [00:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: some of the things you mention as inconsistent, I would guess Sam would have also listed as exclusions if anyone (e.g. Ted) had specifically objected to them as not being justified by practice, and probably <botton> being a radio or menu item would have reasonably fallen in that bucket
- # [00:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: at this point, though, someone would have to plead to reopen the decision based on new info to adjust those things
- # [00:50] * jgraham loves Process
- # [00:50] <hober> sad face
- # [00:51] <othermaciej> for some reason I am reminded of http://programming-motherfucker.com/
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- # [01:09] <Hixie> oh wow, this is awesome
- # [01:09] <Hixie> the aria thing actually breaks h1-h6 in ATs
- # [01:10] <Hixie> (it removes their nesting depth)
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- # [01:10] * Hixie cries a little inside
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- # [01:18] <michaeln> LOL at programming-motherfucker :)
- # [01:21] <Hixie> (oh wow, it also removes role=heading for h1-h6)
- # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Wut.
- # [01:25] <hober> that makes no sense
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- # [18:21] <zewt> what's the reasoning behind canvas.getContext returning null on unsupported context types instead of throwing an exception? it's lead to the terrible "webglcontextcreationerror" contortion in webgl, since there's no exception to report error details in
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- # [18:22] <zewt> seems very unlike the rest of the platform
- # [18:23] <Philip`> zewt: I think Firefox still throws an exception, so you could probably argue that the spec should be changed to throw and it won't break compatibility
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- # [18:24] * Philip` doesn't remember seeing a reason for returning null, except that it's easier to catch than an exception
- # [18:24] <zewt> canvas.getContext("garbage") returns null
- # [18:25] <zewt> the important case is when a type is supported, but can't be created for some reason--in that case you want to be able to say why
- # [18:26] <zewt> i don't know if error handling in "return a new object for contextId" is actually defined by the spec
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- # [19:20] <zewt> webgl using the phrase "Later, at the normal event delivery time" makes me sad
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- # Session Close: Sun Apr 10 00:00:00 2011
The end :)