/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 09 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@server50834.uk2net.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  4. # [00:00] <jgraham> It seems quite like that applies to many kinds of scripts as well
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> and we're going crazy trying to make js faster, to the point of introducing background workers
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> and never introducing sync APIs
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> there's only so much we can do about existing issues
  8. # [00:02] <Hixie> but we shouldn't introduce new ones
  9. # [00:02] <jgraham> None of that is really relevant to the fact that jQuery has a parent selector and CSS does not
  10. # [00:02] <jgraham> I mean a faster js engine will help a bit
  11. # [00:02] <jgraham> But it is mostly DOM speed
  12. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> jQuery doesn't have to evaluate selectors anywhere near as often as CSS.
  13. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Browsers could have a parent selector for querySelector(), but not for actual stylesheets.
  14. # [00:03] <jgraham> It depends what you are doing with it
  15. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Or so I've been told.
  16. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Plus, parent selectors break incremental rendering arbitrarily badly.
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  18. # [00:04] <Hixie> so does :last-child, to be fair
  19. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> (although I guess :nth-child with negative numbers can be pretty bad too)
  20. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> :last-child is fairly limited in the damage it can do.
  21. # [00:04] <Hixie> fair enough
  22. # [00:04] <jgraham> Anyway I am not arguing for parent
  23. # [00:05] <Hixie> you brought it up :-)
  24. # [00:05] <jgraham> I don't think outline selectors have the same level of problems
  25. # [00:05] <Hixie> well if you want to put the outline algorithm into a css selector implementation, be my guest :-)
  26. # [00:05] <Hixie> i don't think other UAs will rush to follow though :-)
  27. # [00:05] <jgraham> At least the mutations that affect them are rather constrained
  28. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> "section section h1" is a pretty bad selector to use instead of ":heading(3)". :/
  29. # [00:07] <jgraham> But I could be wrong
  30. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> (Sorry I'm late with the response - I was shanghaid into a standards discussion.)
  31. # [00:08] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'm thinking more something like h1:ancestor-count(:matches(section, article, nav, aside), 3)
  32. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Holy jeezus, no wonder you're concerned about performance.
  33. # [00:09] <Hixie> (though not specifically that)
  34. # [00:09] <Hixie> actually that one would be really fast
  35. # [00:10] <Hixie> it just has to do a count on the ancestor chain, applying a cachable selector at each level
  36. # [00:10] <Hixie> that's amongst the fastest selectors we have
  37. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> It's as fast as a descendant selector is in anyone except current Webkit.
  38. # [00:10] <Hixie> my point re performance was regarding something that had to implement the outline algorithm, which is a whole different level of perf pain
  39. # [00:11] <Hixie> little slower that descendant selector, but trivially so probably, yeah
  40. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Seems to be no more painful than namespaces. ^_^
  41. # [00:11] <Hixie> well the above wasn't a concrete proposal
  42. # [00:11] <Hixie> i just meant that we should provide generic tools, not something hard-coded for HTML
  43. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> I think we should provide both.
  44. # [00:11] <Hixie> hard-coding for HTML is only a good idea when the alternative is completely out of control or impossible
  45. # [00:12] <Hixie> but anyway
  46. # [00:12] <Hixie> i trust y'all to do a good job here
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  48. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> I submit that h1:ancestor-count(:matches(section, article, nav, aside), 3) is completely out of control.
  49. # [00:14] <Hixie> that was just an indication of the general intent, not a concrete proposal
  50. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Dunno how you'd make a general ability substantially more consise.
  51. # [00:14] <Hixie> i'd have to look at common use cases to have an actual proposal to make
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  60. # [00:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: can you confirm that i read the decision correctly on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10066 ?
  61. # [00:39] <Hixie> man this makes a mess of ARIA
  62. # [00:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: sure, what should I check?
  63. # [00:40] <Hixie> last comment
  64. # [00:40] <othermaciej> I see, you have a comment
  65. # [00:40] <othermaciej> ok, lemme pull up the decision and CP to double check
  66. # [00:40] <Hixie> the reason i ask is that if i'm correct, sam's decision seems to leave the conformance requirements in a really inconsistent state
  67. # [00:41] <Hixie> e.g. <button> can be a menuitemradio, a menuitemcheckbox, a radio, but not a checkbox.
  68. # [00:41] <Hixie> and a <button> can be a link, which makes no sense but i presume is intentional
  69. # [00:42] <Hixie> similarly, <h1> can be a menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio, but not a checkbox or a radio
  70. # [00:42] <Hixie> i don't really understand what school of language design these decisions would stem from
  71. # [00:42] <othermaciej> it looks like you have copied the changes and exclusions correctly
  72. # [00:42] <othermaciej> now checking the delta
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  74. # [00:44] <hober> Hixie: I guess I should have said, in my response on that poll, that my list of crazy element/role combos wasn't intended to be complete
  75. # [00:44] <hober> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-129-objection-poll/results#xfigure
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  77. # [00:45] <Hixie> ah, so the school of design sam followed is the "have no idea what you're doing and try to crib off someone else"?
  78. # [00:45] <Hixie> sigh
  79. # [00:46] <Hixie> in other news, anyone know how one goes about reverting a specific revision in svn?
  80. # [00:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: re reverting, best way is to reverse-apply the diff
  81. # [00:47] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think you have correctly captured what the decision says
  82. # [00:47] <Hixie> doesn't svn have a way to do a reverse merge or something that takes into account all the changes after the revision so that i get fewer conflicts, or something?
  83. # [00:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: ok. i guess i'll apply it and fork for whatwg? or maybe just apply it and fix it in a few years once people aren't paying attention anymore.
  84. # [00:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: some of the things you mention as inconsistent, I would guess Sam would have also listed as exclusions if anyone (e.g. Ted) had specifically objected to them as not being justified by practice, and probably <botton> being a radio or menu item would have reasonably fallen in that bucket
  85. # [00:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: at this point, though, someone would have to plead to reopen the decision based on new info to adjust those things
  86. # [00:50] * jgraham loves Process
  87. # [00:50] <hober> sad face
  88. # [00:51] <othermaciej> for some reason I am reminded of http://programming-motherfucker.com/
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  96. # [01:09] <Hixie> oh wow, this is awesome
  97. # [01:09] <Hixie> the aria thing actually breaks h1-h6 in ATs
  98. # [01:10] <Hixie> (it removes their nesting depth)
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  100. # [01:10] * Hixie cries a little inside
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  104. # [01:18] <michaeln> LOL at programming-motherfucker :)
  105. # [01:21] <Hixie> (oh wow, it also removes role=heading for h1-h6)
  106. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Wut.
  107. # [01:25] <hober> that makes no sense
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  275. # [18:21] <zewt> what's the reasoning behind canvas.getContext returning null on unsupported context types instead of throwing an exception? it's lead to the terrible "webglcontextcreationerror" contortion in webgl, since there's no exception to report error details in
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  278. # [18:22] <zewt> seems very unlike the rest of the platform
  279. # [18:23] <Philip`> zewt: I think Firefox still throws an exception, so you could probably argue that the spec should be changed to throw and it won't break compatibility
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  281. # [18:24] * Philip` doesn't remember seeing a reason for returning null, except that it's easier to catch than an exception
  282. # [18:24] <zewt> canvas.getContext("garbage") returns null
  283. # [18:25] <zewt> the important case is when a type is supported, but can't be created for some reason--in that case you want to be able to say why
  284. # [18:26] <zewt> i don't know if error handling in "return a new object for contextId" is actually defined by the spec
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  293. # [19:20] <zewt> webgl using the phrase "Later, at the normal event delivery time" makes me sad
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  358. # Session Close: Sun Apr 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)