/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-15 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Apr 15 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think the crux of the decision is that the spec should directly define URI parsing (and relative resolution)
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# [00:01] <Hixie> the CP selected doesn't define URI parsing directly
# [00:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: if you have to refactor the content to match the rest of the spec, I think that would be fine, particularly if Adam doesn't object (which I highly doubt he would)
# [00:01] <Hixie> it defines it as a diff of the URL spec
# [00:02] <othermaciej> ah
# [00:02] <othermaciej> well, anyway, I think refactoring the content as part of the original landing would be fine
# [00:02] <Hixie> k
# [00:02] <othermaciej> fixing any bugs with the algorithms would also be fine, but preferably as separate changes
# [00:03] <Hixie> yeah this is gonna be messy enough as it is without fixing bugs at the same time
# [00:03] <othermaciej> I don't think Adam (or anyone else who cares about this) will be excessively picky
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# [00:03] <Hixie> oh i'm sure julian will be
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# [00:05] <othermaciej> did he express a preference in the poll?
# [00:05] <Hixie> he's the reason this all happened in the first place, no?
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# [00:05] <Hixie> maybe i just assume it's him because it involved the ietf and not violating other specs
# [00:06] <othermaciej> I honestly can't remember who started it
# [00:06] <othermaciej> his opinion on the poll was to go back to the drawing board and have Roy Fielding write some text
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# [00:06] <othermaciej> thus, I expect him to hate anything you do regardless
# [00:06] <Hixie> that's a given
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# [00:07] <Hixie> i'd be fine with roy writing the text, fwiw. i don't at all care who writes it so long as (a) it's written and (b) it's not fiction.
# [00:08] <Hixie> ooh, my script congratulated me for fixing two outstanding XXX issue markers
# [00:08] <Hixie> (the XXXs i had for defining "parse" and "resolve")
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# [00:22] * Hixie brings the url feedback back into his bucket of active feedback
# [00:23] <Hixie> (50 e-mails dating back up to 2009)
# [00:23] <Hixie> abarth: what's the status of the url work?
# [00:23] <abarth> Hixie: status is that I have a bunch of time next week blocked off to work on it
# [00:24] <Hixie> ok well the html spec just got its old text back
# [00:24] <abarth> i saw
# [00:24] <abarth> sorry if this is creating busy work for you
# [00:24] <Hixie> eh no worries
# [00:24] <abarth> the good news is that stpete seems interested in actually solving this problem
# [00:25] <Hixie> stpete?
# [00:25] <abarth> http://stpeter.im/
# [00:25] <AryehGregor> Oh, Grid is a new proposal by Microsoft? Wasn't there something like it floating around for a long time?
# [00:25] <abarth> APPS area AD
# [00:25] <Hixie> oh peter
# [00:26] <Hixie> k
# [00:26] <Hixie> so this is gonna be done like the cookie thing?
# [00:26] <abarth> hopefully
# [00:27] <abarth> peter seems to understand that the HTML WG wants a spec by LC
# [00:27] <Hixie> well that's ok, we'll be in LC for years
# [00:28] <abarth> he wants a spec in six months
# [00:28] <abarth> including discussion
# [00:28] <abarth> so, that means we need one mostly written soon
# [00:28] <boogyman> lol, good luck with that
# [00:28] <Hixie> isn't this an area for which discussion is pretty much not needed?
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# [00:28] <Hixie> i mean, it's not like anything is being designed here
# [00:28] <Hixie> it's just describing reality
# [00:28] <Hixie> anyway
# [00:29] <Hixie> if you want to do this at ietf, that's your prerogative
# [00:29] <abarth> i don't particularly care where it gets done
# [00:29] <Hixie> is this going to include the API you were talking about? or is that separate?
# [00:29] <Hixie> i noticed File API has created a URL object
# [00:29] <abarth> that's separate
# [00:29] <Hixie> k
# [00:30] <abarth> the main thing that needs to happen is for me or someone to spend time and actually write up the spec
# [00:30] <Hixie> k
# [00:30] <abarth> once we have that, then we can see who's interested in publishing it
# [00:31] <Hixie> well, my plan is to basically see what happens, and if nothing happens when i get around to looking at the url feedback i just threw back on my pile, i'll just start going through that feedback and fix the stuff in the html spec
# [00:31] <Hixie> we can always extract it out again later
# [00:31] <Hixie> though it would be nice to have a spec that doesn't defer to the URI spec
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# [00:32] <Hixie> what would be even nicer is a spec that obsoletes the URI and IRI specs altogether, goes back to calling everything URLs, and defines syntax and parsing and resolving all in one place, including error handling.
# [00:32] <Hixie> then i could just point straight to one document instead of having to juggle who's in charge of what
# [00:32] <abarth> that's politically more difficult
# [00:33] <abarth> my current plan is to have an object in the spec that can be parsed from a sequence of characters
# [00:33] <abarth> and serialized to a URI
# [00:33] <abarth> I think the current spec calls that a ParsedURL
# [00:34] <abarth> but i haven't looked at the document for a while
# [00:34] <Hixie> current spec?
# [00:34] <Hixie> oh the one you are doing?
# [00:34] <Hixie> k
# [00:34] <abarth> https://github.com/abarth/url-spec/blob/master/drafts/url.xml
# [00:34] <abarth> there's not much there now
# [00:34] <Hixie> well so long as you define parse and resolve in terms that work for the spec, that's fine by me for now
# [00:34] <abarth> but hopefully there will be more in a couple weeks
# [00:34] <Hixie> (that work for the html spec, that is)
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# [00:35] <abarth> a bunch of IETF folks seem very excited about the IDNA aspects of this issue
# [00:35] <Hixie> o_O
# [00:35] <abarth> which seem uninteresting to me
# [00:35] <abarth> i don't plan to include anything about IDNA
# [00:36] <Hixie> there's gonna have to be something about idna, so you can parse iris
# [00:36] <Hixie> but i don't see what there's to get excited about
# [00:36] <othermaciej> abarth: when he says "by LC" does he mean "by the point of entering LC", or "by the point of leaving LC" (which most people might call "by CR")
# [00:37] <othermaciej> the former is probably about a month away, and the latter more than a year away, by my sestimate
# [00:37] <abarth> Hixie: i'm just going to say what the cookie spec says, which is "do the IDNA thing to make this ascii"
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# [00:37] <abarth> othermaciej: he seems to have about six months in mind at a timeframe
# [00:37] <abarth> i don't know where he's getting that timeframe from
# [00:38] <abarth> tlr has also been involved in these discussions, so maybe that part comes from him?
# [00:38] <Hixie> abarth: yeah i think that's pretty much what the html spec says currently
# [00:38] <Hixie> abarth: there's a little more to it, e.g. handling errors from ToAscii, but not much
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# [00:39] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: Yes, Grid Layout is basically a slightly more powerful version of Template Layout.
# [00:39] <TabAtkins_> Lachy: Do you still need to know about the data-binding stuff? I had my computer off for a bit, so I missed if anyone talked to you in the interim.
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# [00:50] <Lachy> TabAtkins_, I'm just curious about what the proposal is and how it will work. But I can wait till the proposal gets sent to the mailing list
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# [01:16] <Hixie> i love that one of leif's arguments for making border=1 valid was "93% of table elements in the wild have the border attribute set"
# [01:16] <Hixie> nevermind that most have it set to 0...
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# [01:23] <othermaciej> does explicit border=0 have any effect?
# [01:26] <Hixie> not in most browsers
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# [02:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: so what it decided if i should apply http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10066#c37 ?
# [02:01] <Hixie> s/what/was/
# [02:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: if no one complains by tomorrow AM then I'll say the coast is clear
# [02:01] <Hixie> oh it's by tomorrow, ok
# [02:01] <othermaciej> (so far no objections afaict)
# [02:01] <Hixie> i thought it was today
# [02:02] <Hixie> ok well there are two open WGDecision bugs i haven't applied, that one and the one i just mailed you about
# [02:02] <Hixie> other than that i'm done with applying decisions, i believe
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# [02:10] <othermaciej> that's good
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# [02:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: ok; I flagged your mail on 131
# [02:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think other than those two bugs, there are only three issues pending action (31/80 decision, and 152 survey or whatever other resolution comes about)
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# [02:14] <Hixie> before the arbitrary LC publication, anyway :-)
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# [05:49] <heycam> where is application/x-www-form-urlencoded defined?
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# [07:10] <Hixie> heycam: defined in what sense?
# [07:11] <heycam> defined as in if you have this input dictionary of values, how do you turn it into a string of characters/bytes
# [07:11] <heycam> s/values/key-value pairs/
# [07:11] <Hixie> the encoding algorithm is defined here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#application/x-www-form-urlencoded-encoding-algorithm
# [07:12] <heycam> Hixie, great, thanks. I didn't find that before for some reason, looking in the forms section.
# [07:12] <heycam> although I see it's only a couple of page downs from where I was reading, so don't know why I missed it :)
# [07:13] <Hixie> or just search for "application/x-www-form-urlencoded" in the spec, there's only 16 hits :-)
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# [10:54] <hsivonen> can someone explain to me what profiles "profiles was feedback from the TV industry at TPAC 2010 HTML WG F2F" is referring to in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html ?
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# [10:55] <hsivonen> on the face of things, "profiles" and "TV industry" in one sentence looks like something that's not One Webby
# [10:55] <Hixie> it's almost certainly what you're interpreting it as
# [10:55] <Hixie> (the tv industry doesn't understand "one web")
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# [10:59] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I'm basically never the right person from Opera for any CSS WG stuff :)
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# [11:00] <benschwarz> Hixie: heyp
# [11:00] <benschwarz> heyo
# [11:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I remember there being some TV people at TPAC, but I don't recall them asking for "profiles"
# [11:00] <Hixie> benschwarz: hey, sup
# [11:00] <benschwarz> Hixie, just home from work
# [11:00] <othermaciej> but sometimes the a11y telecon minutes are confused
# [11:01] <benschwarz> Hixie, are you based in SF / mountain view?
# [11:01] <Hixie> yes
# [11:01] <benschwarz> Hixie, I'll be in SF in 2 weeks
# [11:02] <benschwarz> also, any thoughts on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12491 ?
# [11:02] <Hixie> if you're up for coming up to mountain view, i'd be happy to invite you to lunch at google when you're here - drop me a line with dates that would work for you (i don't have my calendar right now)
# [11:02] <Hixie> that bug seems reasonable
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# [11:02] <hsivonen> "<oedipus> plus 1 to judy -- W3C process different from "WG process" set up by chairs, but they are following cookie-cutter process which is detrimental to development of spec"
# [11:03] <benschwarz> Hixie, I was planning to organise a lunch with some heads in SF
# [11:03] <hsivonen> so who, these days, is thinking that the HTML WG Decision Process is good for the development of the spec?
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# [11:03] <benschwarz> KuraFire, paul_irish and some others…\
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# [11:04] <Hixie> cool
# [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: nobody being happy is not a good indicator of badness in this kind of thing
# [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: (but having said that, i do think it's bad :-) )
# [11:05] <benschwarz> Hixie, I'll email a group when I've got my bizness together ;)
# [11:05] <Hixie> cool
# [11:05] <benschwarz> I was thinking saturday the 30th of April
# [11:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: Presumably a majority of the chairs think it is good
# [11:08] <jgraham> Although it is possible that they all beleive it is bad but think that the others both think it is good I suppose
# [11:10] <Hixie> oh wow, it's late
# [11:10] <Hixie> nn
# [11:10] <jgraham> gn
# [11:10] <othermaciej> politics is the art of the possible
# [11:12] <jgraham> Which is another way of saying you think it is the best possible process
# [11:12] <jgraham> Presumably
# [11:13] <Hixie> politics shouldn't (and needn't) be a factor here, fwiw.
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# [11:17] <Lachy> The ridiculous HTMLWG process is one of the major reason I've reduced my involvement in that disfunctional group.
# [11:17] <jgraham> It's not really clear that can be true unless you are using a different definition of politics
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# [11:20] <jgraham> (in particular, even if you use a data-driven process, which is good, the weighting applied to different bits of data is basically a political decision)
# [11:21] <othermaciej> any process that involves more than one human is a form of politics
# [11:22] <jgraham> I think that is a broader definition of "politics" than most people would use
# [11:24] <othermaciej> that was meant to be a non-tautological assertion, not a definition
# [11:24] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, because many people want claim that what they are involved in is not political in any way
# [11:24] <MikeSmith> ceding decision-making authority to somebody else is political decision
# [11:24] <othermaciej> though Wikipedia's one-liner, "Politics is a process by which groups of people make collective decisions", seems pretty broad and about what I had in mind
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# [11:32] <jgraham> othermaciej: Ah, if you had narrowed the scope to "decision making process" that might be more reasonable
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# [11:33] <othermaciej> I'm trying to think of interactions that involve more than one person which do not involve making any decisions, or even any attempts to influence decisions
# [11:34] <othermaciej> I suppose if one person murders another in their sleep, solely for the thrill of it
# [11:36] <zcorpan> doooods! microsoft weren't first! google came up with 'native html5'! here's proof: http://www.html5rocks.com/tutorials/dnd/basics/
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# [14:22] <Ms2ger> /.: "Maqetta: Open Source HTML5 Editor From IBM" (http://rly.cc/7MXVe)
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# [14:23] <dhx1> Ms2ger: native support right?
# [14:25] <asmodai> eh, 6.0 FF nightlies. 5 is being skipped? :P
# [14:25] <hsivonen> asmodai: 5 is in the Aurora channel
# [14:26] <hsivonen> asmodai: the 5 train has left central already
# [14:26] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I wonder if that tool has any connection to Rich S's <canvas> accessibility concerns
# [14:27] <asmodai> wait, wait, aurora channel? :|
# [14:27] * asmodai looks around
# [14:27] <hsivonen> asmodai: http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2011/04/13/new-channels-for-firefox-rapid-releases/
# [14:28] <asmodai> yeah, was looking at the channel page at the moment
# [14:33] <erlehmann> they just want to blow up version numbers
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# [14:34] <asmodai> mmm
# [14:34] <erlehmann> on slashdot, in the IE10 thread, one message stuck me as particularly insightful: “ten? my browser version goes up to eleven!”
# [14:34] <asmodai> aurora doesn't seem to jive with -no-remote anymore :S
# [14:34] <Ms2ger> More like, nobody cares about version numbers, so we just picked the easiest one
# [14:34] <asmodai> Mmm, but most likely I'm doing it wrong again *tries again*
# [14:35] <asmodai> ah there we go
# [14:39] <GlitchMr> erlehmann: I think it's Google Chrome
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# [14:39] <asmodai> Mmm, but can't run aurora and nightly together though.
# [14:39] <asmodai> Despite different installation locations and different profiles.
# [14:40] <wilhelm> 5 is being skipped again? :P
# [14:40] <erlehmann> GlitchMr, :>
# [14:40] <hsivonen> erlehmann: Opera had better stop tweaking minor version to stay ahead of Chrome
# [14:40] <hdhoang> the new fx codename scheme is neat
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# [14:41] <hsivonen> GlitchMr: Opera is the one that goes to 11. Chrome's stable release is still at 10.
# [14:41] <asmodai> wilhelm: aurora is 5
# [14:41] <GlitchMr> Oh, right
# [14:41] <GlitchMr> lol
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# [14:41] <GlitchMr> For me it's just 9.80
# [14:41] <hdhoang> WebKit over five hundred
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# [14:42] <hsivonen> hdhoang: yet, Apple ships Safari as 5. They are missing a hundredfold win here.
# [14:42] <GlitchMr> If user agent says me it's Opera/9.80, it must be it... (I'm kinda confused on browsers user agents)
# [14:42] <wilhelm> GlitchMr: Yes, thanks to broken browser sniffing scripts, 10 < 9.
# [14:43] <gsnedders> hsivonen: So there's now moz-central, aurora, beta, and final?
# [14:43] <GlitchMr> I don't use those
# [14:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yes
# [14:43] <erlehmann> Opera 9.80 is the eternal version.
# [14:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: except the beta channel will take 6 weeks to appear
# [14:44] <asmodai> I wonder what aurora and nightly are sharing together now that you cannot run them at the same time.
# [14:44] <gsnedders> So what's the flow from moz-central to Aurora?
# [14:44] <GlitchMr> All I do is checking by proper header if browser accepts xhtml+xml header and send it if it supports.
# [14:44] <hsivonen> gsnedders: every 6 weeks
# [14:45] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the first ever move from central to aurora happened on Tuesday this week
# [14:45] <gsnedders> hsivonen: So for something to ship you have possibly just under six weeks m-c to Aurora, six weeks to Beta, then six weeks to Final? So everything has a 12–18 week lead time?
# [14:45] <gsnedders> Compared with Chrome's 6–12 week lead time?
# [14:45] <hsivonen> gsnedders: in six weeks, current aurora becomes beta and a new aurora begins with what's in central
# [14:46] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Right, yeah. But to get from central to final takes 12–18 weeks, if I understand correctly?
# [14:46] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yeah
# [14:47] <GlitchMr> If my document validates to XHTML5, it's probably good :P
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# [14:47] * gsnedders finds the difference (by having another stage) between Fx and Ch interesting
# [14:48] <GlitchMr> It's not like HTML5 is cure for all problems. I just use it for semantic elements and placeholder="".
# [14:48] * jgraham wonders if anyone has got mozilla-trunk from the ubuntu ppa
# [14:48] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does Chrome actually land new features on dev? I thought dev and aurora were analogous.
# [14:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I thought they did
# [14:49] <jgraham> I see the package listed as providing firefox-6 on the webpage
# [14:49] <jgraham> But it isn't there in synaptic after I reload
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# [14:52] <jgraham> Oooh it works today
# [14:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Oh, they do have a channel above dev, my bad
# [14:52] <GlitchMr> All those <canvas>es are abstract for me. It might look cool in all those JS demos, but I don't have reason to use it for serious page.
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# [14:53] <erlehmann> serious <canvas> is serious element
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# [14:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: It doesn't allow you to have central and fx4 installed at once though
# [14:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Firefox 4 is so old hat
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# [15:00] <jgraham> (which makes loads of sense. obviously.)
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# [15:07] <zcorpan> erlehmann: This is the Internet. And it is serious business.
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# [15:09] <erlehmann> zcorpan, it is. i'm in my bet, chatting on IRC instead of going to the internet conference half an hour away.
# [15:09] <erlehmann> bed
# [15:10] <erlehmann> such is life in the internets :>
# [15:11] <aho> i use canvas for games
# [15:11] <aho> wasting time is serious business (on the internet) :>
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# [15:45] <zcorpan> are we publishing LC on april 22? or may 22?
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# [15:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: othermaciej said about a month so I guess May 22nd
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# [16:16] <zcorpan> so what is the april 22 date?
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# [16:16] <jgraham> Which April 22nd date?
# [16:17] <jcranmer> the April 22 date is the day that April 22 falls on
# [16:17] <jcranmer> usually
# [16:19] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/E3EACD022300B94D88613639CF4E25F81A1E7330@TK5EX14MBXC134.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
# [16:19] <zcorpan> so we're aming for last call on may 24
# [16:21] <zcorpan> april 22 is when all decisions need to be implemented
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# [16:43] <jgraham> lol at bug 12500
# [16:44] <zcorpan> url?
# [16:45] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/bug-12500-2486@http.www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/>
# [16:45] <zcorpan> heh
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# [16:47] <zcorpan> annevk: you're not supposed to be reading specs while on vacation. you're not supposed to be reading this, either.
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# [17:12] <jwalden> probably no Guinness, tho
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# [18:06] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, too bad, you were the only CSSWG member from Opera that I know.
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# [18:06] <TabAtkins> Hot damn, this is a beautiful abuse of gradients: http://leaverou.me/css3patterns/
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# [18:11] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that's a pretty cool hack.
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# [18:16] <wilhelm> Oh, fun. registerProtocolHandler("mail.google.com", "http://evilsite.com/%s", "Friendly Innocent Site") seems to be valid.
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> For when the user types "mail.google.com" without the "http(s)://" prefix, you mean?
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> That's a nasty attack.
# [18:17] <wilhelm> Yes, or follows a link.
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> They still need to also put a colon in, right? Like "mail.google.com:page"?
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# [18:18] <AryehGregor> Easy fix: don't allow registerProtocolHandler() to register a name with a dot, and only let it handle things if the user types a colon after the protocol.
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> Still definitely non-obvious, of course.
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# [18:18] <AryehGregor> (the latter to prevent issues with users just typing a one-word search term)
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# [18:19] <wilhelm> TabAtkins: Yes. But a link saying mail.google.com:/mail looks completely innocent.
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> Oh, well, that's not much of an attack.
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> I thought you were saying it would work if the user just typed "mail.google.com".
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> Into the URL bar.
# [18:20] <AryehGregor> If you have to get them to allow the site to register a protocol handler, *and* then to follow links that may or may not look legitimate to them, that's really not much of an attack surface.
# [18:20] <AryehGregor> If you can register the protocol handler to start with, they're already viewing your malicious site, so enabling phishing isn't a huge issue here.
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> I'd think that the link wilhelm provides looks pretty legit to basically everyone.
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Not necessarily true. <iframe> hack in an ad-based attack, maybe?
# [18:21] <wilhelm> It's a quite complicated attack vector, yes.
# [18:21] <AryehGregor> I think that basically everyone doesn't look at URLs, and that the ones that do wouldn't be any more confused by "mail.google.com:/mail" than "http://mail.google.foo.com".
# [18:22] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, they're still viewing your malicious site. If the <iframe> isn't sandboxed, they can navigate the parent frame, no?
# [18:22] <wilhelm> “mail.google.com:” seems to be enough.
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# [18:22] <AryehGregor> With the colon. So not a big deal at all.
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# [18:23] <Philip`> "mail.google.com:80" ?
# [18:23] <AryehGregor> Schemes are apparently allowed to contain dots.
# [18:23] <wilhelm> Philip`: Oh, that's ugly. That would trick me.
# [18:23] <AryehGregor> But I don't think it would be a big deal if we banned dots from schemes for registerProtocolHandler(), unless people actually use them.
# [18:23] <Philip`> "localhost:80"
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I thought of that. In current Chrome, that wouldn't even display differently from http://mail.google.com:80/, right?
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> Either in the URL bar or in the hover-over.
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> Philip`, ouch.
# [18:24] <wilhelm> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-3.1 says dots are allowed. I'm not sure that's a great idea.
# [18:24] <Philip`> People seem to put a lot of effort into avoiding IDNs that look a lot like ASCII domain names to avoid phishing, so it seems bad if you can put domain names anywhere else in the URL
# [18:24] <Philip`> rather than saying it's "not much of an attack"
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> There are some TLDs that resolve to websites too, like "to".
# [18:24] <wilhelm> Disallowing dots won't help localhost:80. Hrm.
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> Although Chrome seems to refuse to connect to "http://to/", it wants "http://to./".
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> Disallow dots and special-case localhost.
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I'm not saying that we shouldn't do something about it, but it's not a very severe attack.
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> Initially I thought it was extremely bad.
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> But it seems not.
# [18:26] <Philip`> "anyserveronlocalnetwork:80"
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> Okay, but that's already a very specialized attack right there.
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> And I don't see what to do about it.
# [18:26] <wilhelm> “192.168.1.1:80”
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# [18:28] <AryehGregor> wilhelm, dots.
# [18:28] <AryehGregor> Don't allow dots.
# [18:28] <Philip`> "[::1]:80"
# [18:28] <AryehGregor> Brackets and colons aren't even allowed in schems.
# [18:28] <AryehGregor> schemes.
# [18:28] <Philip`> Alas
# [18:28] <AryehGregor> It has to be [a-z][a-z+\-.]*.
# [18:29] <Philip`> (That scheme doesn't have a colon, actually)
# [18:29] <AryehGregor> Oh, it's just "[".
# [18:29] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure that's not a valid URL regardless.
# [18:29] <wilhelm> AryehGregor: That's what I was thinking too.
# [18:29] <AryehGregor> Don't allow dots or "localhost", and don't allow invalid schemes per the RFC, and you should be fine.
# [18:29] <AryehGregor> Does anyone use schemes with dots or minus signs? I've seen "svn+ssh".
# [18:30] <AryehGregor> (for plus signs)
# [18:30] <wilhelm> xmlrpc.beep, soap.beep, iris.beep are IANA-registered schemes using the dot. But I suppose that's not particularly useful for web browsers.
# [18:30] <AryehGregor> "z39.50r"
# [18:30] <AryehGregor> http://ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/uri/rfc2056.txt
# [18:30] <wilhelm> Oh, that one too.
# [18:30] <Philip`> Hmm, digits aren't allowed?
# [18:31] <AryehGregor> Oh, they are.
# [18:31] <AryehGregor> I misremembered.
# [18:31] <AryehGregor> Although not as the first character.
# [18:31] <AryehGregor> http://labs.apache.org/webarch/uri/rfc/rfc3986.html#scheme
# [18:31] <wilhelm> Yes, they are.
# [18:31] <AryehGregor> [a-z][a-z0-9+\-.]*
# [18:31] * Philip` had just got to "ut2004" in the list
# [18:31] <Philip`> "view-source:"
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# [18:36] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, so did you forward it to someone who can give an answer or what?
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# [18:37] <AryehGregor> Since I have WebKit on my side, I'm pretty sure that agreement by either Microsoft or Mozilla would be enough, but agreement by Opera couldn't hurt.
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# [18:37] <AryehGregor> (I'm pretty sure everyone will agree with me, but if not, then I'd be interested to hear what they have to say)
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> I assume I'm off the hook, since Niwa and Hyatt already said no?
# [18:38] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, yes, I'm fine on WebKit.
# [18:39] <AryehGregor> smaug____, since you asked before, I specced insertNode() yesterday: <http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html#dom-range-insertnode> I have to review the test results a little more before I'll call the spec final, but I'm pretty sure it won't need substantial revision.
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# [18:40] <AryehGregor> smaug____, also, since you're here, would you happen to have any feedback on this? I don't know if you're the right person to ask, but figure I might as well. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0484.html
# [18:41] <smaug____> AryehGregor: actually I'm trying to not be here today. I should recover from jetlag
# [18:41] <AryehGregor> smaug____, ah, okay. Good luck at that. :)
# [18:42] <AryehGregor> It's not urgent at all, I'm just being impatient. :)
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# [18:49] <smaug____> AryehGregor: so is it specified somewhere else in your spec what happens to the end offset
# [18:49] <AryehGregor> smaug____, it just follows the regular range mutation rules.
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# [18:49] <smaug____> AryehGregor: especially when start and end offset are the smae
# [18:49] <smaug____> er, same
# [18:49] <smaug____> I mean, if the range is collapsed and you do insertNode
# [18:49] * AryehGregor looks
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# [18:50] <smaug____> AryehGregor: ok, I assume the mutation rules handle that correctly that neither of the offsets change
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> smaug____, from the rules at <http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html#range-behavior-under-document-mutation>: if the range is collapsed in an Element/Document/DocumentFragment, then the offset of the range doesn't change, so the node winds up outside the selection.
# [18:50] <smaug____> ok
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> If it's in a comment node, it will stay in the comment node, which will wind up after the node.
# [18:50] <smaug____> that is compatible with DOM 2 Range
# [18:51] <AryehGregor> If it's a text node, it will be split and wind up at the end of the first node, so before the new node.
# [18:51] <AryehGregor> In no case will it contain the new node.
# [18:51] <AryehGregor> However, this is one of the things that I was planning on looking at more closely today.
# [18:51] <AryehGregor> I might decide to change that part, depending on my analysis of how current browsers behave and what makes sense.
# [18:51] <AryehGregor> Since if the range isn't collapsed, then in most cases it will wind up containing the new node.
# [18:51] <smaug____> AryehGregor: webkit does against DOM 2 Range
# [18:52] <smaug____> Gecko does what DOM 2 Range says
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# [18:52] <AryehGregor> Well, new specs are allowed to contradict older ones, right? Especially if we don't have interop on the original spec.
# [18:52] <smaug____> acid3 allows both behaviors
# [18:52] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I'll let you know what I decide. Of course, it's subject to people actually being willing to implement it.
# [18:52] <smaug____> I wouldn't want to special case mutation handling for one case
# [18:53] <smaug____> consistency is a good thing
# [18:53] <AryehGregor> We already have special cases for deleteContents() and extractContents().
# [18:53] <AryehGregor> And whoa, my tests became insanely faster when I passed info to iframes by setting a variable on the iframe's window instead of passing info in the hash.
# [18:54] <AryehGregor> No navigation required. Now it's like 13 seconds in Chrome instead of a minute.
# [18:54] <AryehGregor> Also, we have a special case for splitText().
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# [18:54] <AryehGregor> I'd say that it makes the author-visible behavior sensible if we can allow an invariant like "after insertNode(), the new node will always be contained in the range".
# [18:54] <AryehGregor> But we can't actually do that unless we split comments, which seems unreasonable.
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> (and no browser does it)
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> s/sensible/simpler/
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> So I'm inclined to say no special case right now, since we can't make really useful guarantees anyway.
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> The start of the range will always have to fall before the new node in some cases and after in others, and so will the end.
# [18:56] <AryehGregor> Because of comments.
# [18:56] <smaug____> I need to look at what special cases you mean with delete/extractContents and splitText
# [18:56] <smaug____> I'll
# [18:56] <AryehGregor> delete/extractContents() guarantee that the range will be collapsed afterwards.
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> That's only possible by special-casing, because you might have something like <b>foo[</b>]bar where nothing is actually deleted but the selection isn't collapsed, for instance.
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# [18:58] <AryehGregor> Gecko currently implements no special case for splitText(), but WebKit does, and I've specced it because it makes a lot of sense. In particular, I'd need to add at least one extra special case to execCommand() if splitText() didn't have the special case, so I figured it made the most sense to make the special case more generally applicable.
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# [18:58] <smaug____> what is the special case for splitText ?
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# [18:59] <AryehGregor> smaug____, if you have something like foo[bar]baz as one text node, and you called splitText(4), then without special cases it would become foo[b] arbaz (space denoting text node break).
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# [19:00] <AryehGregor> The special case is it becomes foo[b ar]baz instead, i.e., the endpoint gets moved to the new node if appropriate instead of being clamped.
# [19:00] <AryehGregor> It's the first item here: <http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html#range-behavior-under-document-mutation>
# [19:01] <AryehGregor> There's one other special case I'm contemplating but haven't yet specced: if you have {foo} (range endpoints lying in the parent element, not in the text node) and split the node, you current get {fo } o, but {fo o} would make more sense. Not sure if it merits a special case, though, so I won't spec it unless I can come up with a solid justification for it.
# [19:02] <AryehGregor> E.g., cases where execCommand() would have to special-case if I didn't special-case in splitText().
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# [19:02] <AryehGregor> (roc agreed with the current spec's special case for splitText(), BTW)
# [19:03] <AryehGregor> Oh, right. There are also different special cases for splitText() when the text node has a null parent. I could probably get rid of those, since that case is somewhat pathological anyway.
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# [19:03] <smaug____> hmm, need to test how that splittext special case works with mutation events
# [19:04] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I'm totally ignoring mutation events right now.
# [19:04] <AryehGregor> I'm hoping they'll go away, but even if they don't, we don't have a spec for them, so it's hard for me to spec anything about them.
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# [19:04] <smaug____> basically, at which point is the special case handled
# [19:04] <AryehGregor> Since you can have mutation events firing in the middle of splitText() execution, right?
# [19:04] <AryehGregor> That'll mess things up, yeah.
# [19:04] <smaug____> right
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# [19:05] <AryehGregor> So I really need to write what to do right after the new node is inserted, and what to do right after the old node's data is truncated.
# [19:05] <AryehGregor> Separately.
# [19:05] <AryehGregor> As I said, I'll ignore it for now, but let me update the spec with an XXX to make it clearer.
# [19:05] <smaug____> ok
# [19:06] <AryehGregor> Thanks for the feedback.
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# [19:06] <smaug____> atm gecko range implementation doesn't have, IIRC, any dom mutation related special cases
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# [19:06] <smaug____> since it just uses internal mutation observer API
# [19:07] <AryehGregor> Right, so I've been told.
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# [19:07] <smaug____> so when dom is mutated, range doesn't know what actually changed the dom
# [19:07] <AryehGregor> Do mutation events fire on data changes, or do you use some other technique for that?
# [19:07] <smaug____> mutation events happen after mutation observer API methods are called
# [19:07] <smaug____> in general
# [19:08] <smaug____> though things like splitTExt causes several dom mutations
# [19:08] <smaug____> removing text data, and creating a new node with same data as what was removed...
# [19:08] <AryehGregor> Ah, there's a DOMCharacterDataModified event.
# [19:09] <AryehGregor> It's the insert that triggers the event, not the create, right? You can't detect the actual create?
# [19:09] <AryehGregor> Or the change of the data on the newly-created node.
# [19:09] <AryehGregor> Since it's not in a tree that you can have attached event handlers to.
# [19:09] <smaug____> mutation events and range are still pretty bad combination, I admit. it is easy to crash webkit and there is at least a case when gecko goes to endless loop
# [19:10] <smaug____> AryehGregor: right, insert triggers an event
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# [19:16] <wilhelm> Good. The mail.google.com:80 trick doesn't work in either Firefox or my internal Opera build. That's treated as hostname:port. (mail.google.com:/ isn't, though.)
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# [19:20] <AryehGregor> Would be good to spec that.
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# [19:24] <funkie> fml i suck
# [19:24] <funkie> at html logic
# [19:24] <funkie> so i have this website
# [19:24] <funkie> its all done mostly
# [19:25] <funkie> and I want to add a bade
# [19:25] <funkie> badge that stays on the bottom left of the screen
# [19:25] <funkie> and when hovered shows something
# [19:25] <funkie> a tooltiop
# [19:25] <funkie> the tooltip is done
# [19:25] <funkie> but I can't get the image to go there :(
# [19:25] <funkie> halp
# [19:25] <aho> try #css or something
# [19:25] <AryehGregor> Try #css.
# [19:25] <aho> heh
# [19:25] <bfrohs> funkie: position:fixed;bottom:0;left:0;
# [19:25] <AryehGregor> You most likely want position: fixed.
# [19:26] <AryehGregor> Works in all recent browsers, but I don't know about IE6.
# [19:27] <AryehGregor> Man, browsers' misimplementation of DOMExceptions really creates loads of distracting failures.
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# [19:28] <funkie> doesn't work
# [19:28] <funkie> :(
# [19:28] <AryehGregor> funkie, post a link to the page so people can debug it, if possible.
# [19:29] <AryehGregor> Actually, I have a CSS question. What's some CSS to make a table fixed-layout, so it doesn't take forever to render if it's huge? That will actually work in all the most recent browsers, obviously I mean.
# [19:29] <funkie> okok
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# [19:29] <TabAtkins> table-layout:fixed
# [19:29] <TabAtkins> Bases the rendering on only the first row, iirc.
# [19:30] <AryehGregor> Is that actually supported in all browsers?
# [19:30] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [19:30] <AryehGregor> I thought no one supported it in practice.
# [19:30] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
# [19:30] * AryehGregor tests
# [19:30] <TabAtkins> I've used it for years.
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# [19:30] <AryehGregor> If I specify percentage widths or such with that, will they actually be interpreted strictly instead of as guidelines?
# [19:31] <TabAtkins> Dunno about that. Table layout is voodoo at the best of times.
# [19:31] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: I believe so, yes
# [19:31] <funkie> ok
# [19:31] <funkie> nerd-migs
# [19:31] <funkie> migos
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# [19:33] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I'm noticing no difference between the two tables here: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/930
# [19:34] <funkie> www.pezbanana.com/aquarella/
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# [19:38] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Hrm.
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# [19:40] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: Add width:500px; to each table
# [19:40] <bfrohs> You'll notice the difference then
# [19:41] <AryehGregor> I'm mainly aiming to speed up table layout here.
# [19:41] <AryehGregor> Because a lot of the time it takes my huge tests to run in jgraham's framework is just table layout time.
# [19:41] <AryehGregor> As far as I can observe -- it displays the results, but then keeps using 100% CPU for a number of seconds, then reflows the whole thing.
# [19:42] <AryehGregor> Maybe I should use a different display value?
# [19:42] <Philip`> Can you just split the table after every ~100 rows (and add a new row of headings)?
# [19:42] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: If you set a width on the table, the layout time is greatly reduced by using fixed table layout
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> Oh yeah! 'auto' width tables automatically use the 'auto' layout algorithm, regardless fo what you specify.
# [19:42] <AryehGregor> Philip`, that would only help if the table layout algorithm is worse than linear, which I'm not sure it is (is it?).
# [19:42] <AryehGregor> Oh.
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yes, it is.
# [19:42] <AryehGregor> So width: 100% will work?
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> (worse than linear, that is)
# [19:42] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: Yup
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> Possibly?
# [19:43] * AryehGregor will try that in a second
# [19:43] <TabAtkins> Answer: yes.
# [19:43] <funkie> ok, here's the web in case you guys wanna check it out
# [19:44] <funkie> www.pezbanana.com/aquarella
# [19:44] <funkie> que ribbon doesn't show at all when set to position: fixed;
# [19:44] <funkie> :/
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# [19:44] <bfrohs> funkie: You have width and height set to 0
# [19:45] <bfrohs> funkie: Well, that's what it's computing to
# [19:45] <AryehGregor> Why doesn't someone specify what exceptions are actually supposed to look like? Ugh.
# [19:45] <AryehGregor> Like WebKit adds a "stack" string member, Gecko adds "lineNumber" and "fileName" . . .
# [19:46] <AryehGregor> At least for some exceptions.
# [19:48] <AryehGregor> Oh, Gecko does stack too.
# [19:48] <funkie> oh
# [19:48] <funkie> awesome, thanks a shitton
# [19:48] <funkie> bfrohs
# [19:48] <funkie> :D
# [19:49] <AryehGregor> Formatted differently from WebKit, naturally.
# [19:49] <bfrohs> funkie: np. Consider using Chrome or installing Firebug for Firefox--will allow you to right-click > inspect elements to find detailed information :)
# [19:49] <funkie> thx
# [19:49] <funkie> using coda to hand code stuff
# [19:49] <funkie> my code is a mess
# [19:49] <funkie> but I'm still learning T_T
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# [19:56] <AryehGregor> vim users: does anyone know how to tell vim to automatically adopt the tab convention of the file you're editing?
# [19:56] <AryehGregor> E.g., look at the first X lines and try to figure out if it's tabs or spaces, and if spaces how many?
# [19:56] <AryehGregor> Because I wind up leaving tabs littered in space-indented files if I'm not careful, and it's annoying.
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# [20:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You said that most tables that specify @border in the wild use border=0?
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# [20:02] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, looks like table-layout: fixed plus width: 100% works for Chrome and IE9, but not Opera or Firefox.
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# [20:02] <AryehGregor> Oh well, it's an improvement.
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# [20:03] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: Using 3.6? Because it works in 4.0 for me.
# [20:03] <bfrohs> (in firefox)
# [20:03] <AryehGregor> bfrohs, using 4.0.
# [20:03] <bfrohs> OS?
# [20:03] <AryehGregor> Okay, let me try a simpler test case.
# [20:03] <AryehGregor> Ubuntu, but I really doubt OS matters here.
# [20:03] <bfrohs> Same here, so very weird
# [20:03] <TabAtkins> Works for me in FF 3.6 on Linux.
# [20:04] * ezoe_ is now known as ezoe
# [20:04] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I see border=0 about 10x as often as border=1
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# [20:04] <Philip`> TabAtkins: and that 10x more than border=2
# [20:04] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
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# [20:04] <TabAtkins> Cool, thanks Philip`.
# [20:05] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: Wait, are you saying table-layout:fixed; doesn't affect the final layout? Or that it doesn't solve the layout time?
# [20:05] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I'm just taking your livedomviewer and adding a "<style>table { width:100%; }</style>" to it. I get a clear behavior difference.
# [20:05] <AryehGregor> The behavior is different, but doesn't seem to be what I want unless I give explicit cell widths.
# [20:05] <AryehGregor> As I'm reading the spec, any available horizontal space should be divided up equally among columns whose first cell has width: auto.
# [20:06] <Philip`> TabAtkins: http://philip.html5.org/data/table-border-pages.txt
# [20:06] <AryehGregor> But width: auto on any of the first row's cells seems to still make the column widths depend on cell contents after the first row.
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> The spec algo is a fiction.
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# [20:06] <AryehGregor> One sec.
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> Just set % widths on the cells.
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# [20:07] <jamesr> TabAtkins: what's supposed to happen if you have <div style="display:none"><iframe src"..."></iframe></div> ?
# [20:07] <TabAtkins> jamesr: In terms of loading behavior for the iframe?
# [20:07] <jamesr> in terms of layout inside the iframe
# [20:07] <TabAtkins> Oh, the iframe is display:none, so it doesn't lay out.
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# [20:08] <TabAtkins> It should be like setting "window { display:none; }", if that was actually a thing you could do.
# [20:08] <jamesr> so every computed layout size is 0 inside of it? ok
# [20:08] <TabAtkins> Well, that's undefined. But 0 is a good answer.
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# [20:08] <jamesr> ok
# [20:09] <jamesr> guess we gotta figure out how to do that now that we load the iframe
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# [20:09] <jamesr> pretend it's display:none on the inside without actually returning 'none' for getters to style.display
# [20:10] <AryehGregor> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/931
# [20:10] <AryehGregor> It looks like it's enough to specify explicit widths on all but one cell.
# [20:10] <AryehGregor> The last will then be flexible.
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# [20:11] <AryehGregor> Ugh, my real-world case is still broken in Firefox 4.0.
# [20:11] * AryehGregor investigates
# [20:12] <AryehGregor> Oh, maybe it's just not picking up the updated CSS file for some reason . . . ?
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# [20:12] <AryehGregor> Yeah, weird . . .
# [20:12] <AryehGregor> Now it works.
# [20:13] <AryehGregor> Dunno why it didn't fetch the file properly before.
# [20:13] <AryehGregor> It did when I ran in Firebug.
# [20:13] <AryehGregor> Ack, now it broke again?!
# [20:13] <AryehGregor> No, not anymore.
# [20:13] <AryehGregor> Okay, Firefox is still slow, but at least Chrome seems faster.
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# [20:14] <TabAtkins> Philip`: I just... I just don't understand what kind of confusion would cause someone to write border="width=95%".
# [20:15] <mpilgrim> that's quite stunning
# [20:15] <Philip`> They probably write something more like <table border= width=95%>
# [20:16] <Philip`> which used to have some border value that got deleted
# [20:16] <TabAtkins> Ah, that would make sense.
# [20:16] <AryehGregor> That parses the same as border="width=95%"? I'd have thought it would be border="" width=95% or something.
# [20:16] <AryehGregor> (Welcome to text/html, I guess.)
# [20:16] <mpilgrim> tables would be cooler if you could use unicode characters to draw the border you want, inside the border attribute
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# [20:17] <TabAtkins> ASCII is sufficient for all layout purposes.
# [20:17] <mpilgrim> works for the IETF
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# [20:18] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Whitespace is optional around the =
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> Fascinating.
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> I... didn't know that.
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# [20:19] <TabAtkins> So <table border =^^=> parses as <table border="^^=">?
# [20:19] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#unquoted
# [20:19] <Philip`> "The attribute name, followed by zero or more space characters, followed by a single U+003D EQUALS SIGN character, followed by zero or more space characters, followed by the attribute value"
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# [20:20] <TabAtkins> Hm, I'd have to actually go look at the parsing algo to tell how my example is parsed, since it contains an =.
# [20:20] <Philip`> It's what you said
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# [20:20] <bfrohs> "attribute value ... must not contain ... equals sign"
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# [20:20] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#attribute-value-(unquoted)-state
# [20:20] <TabAtkins> Oh, the "no = in the attr value" is just an author conformance?
# [20:21] <Philip`> Only whitespace and '>' break out of it
# [20:21] <Philip`> (and EOF)
# [20:21] <TabAtkins> Ah, yup.
# [20:21] <Philip`> Yeah, that whole section is just author conformance
# [20:21] <mpilgrim> pfft, authors
# [20:22] <AryehGregor> What's the easiest way to add a new style rule to the document? Just appending a style element, or is there some nicer way to do it via CSSOM?
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# [20:22] <Philip`> If authors want to write <table border =^^=>, who are we to deny them?
# [20:22] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, "nicer way to do it via CSSOM"?
# [20:22] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, you must be new here
# [20:22] <AryehGregor> Heh.
# [20:23] <Philip`> document.body.innerHTML += '<style>...</style>';
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# [20:23] <Ms2ger> innerHTML += is evil
# [20:24] * Philip` shrugs
# [20:24] <Philip`> HTML is evil
# [20:24] <aho> well, it's the slowest thing you can possibly do
# [20:24] <TabAtkins> Just make an HTMLStyleElement or whatever, set textContent, and append it.
# [20:24] <Ms2ger> No, HTML is ugly, there's a subtle difference
# [20:26] <Philip`> Emperor Palpatine was evil, and he was ugly
# [20:26] <Philip`> There's not really any difference
# [20:26] <AryehGregor> Philip`, innerHTML += will do fun things like reset the state of all the <video>s on the page, won't it?
# [20:26] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Sure
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# [20:27] <Ms2ger> /.: Rivals Mock Microsoft's 'Native HTML5' Claims (http://rly.cc/E8bj)
# [20:27] <Ms2ger> Oh no!
# [20:28] <Philip`> (That link doesn't work)
# [20:28] <mpilgrim> TabAtkins: this may be relevant to your interests http://www.mozdev.org/pipermail/greasemonkey/2005-July/003696.html
# [20:28] <Ms2ger> http://rly.cc/E8bjy
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# [20:28] <mpilgrim> and ensuing discussion
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# [20:29] <mpilgrim> these days you should probably use document.head, if it exists
# [20:30] <mpilgrim> it's a surprisingly tricky question
# [20:30] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: And kill event handlers, etc. You're throwing away and reparsing the entire page.
# [20:31] <mpilgrim> holy shit, slashdot still exists!
# [20:31] <Ms2ger> mpilgrim, no kidding!
# [20:31] <AryehGregor> Ugh, I just want to not use table layout here.
# [20:32] <mpilgrim> i always assume things stop existing once i stop looking at them
# [20:32] <mpilgrim> like the HTML working group
# [20:32] <mpilgrim> and we see how well that worked out
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# [20:33] <AryehGregor> mpilgrim, are you surprised whenever you figure out the sun rose in the morning?
# [20:33] <mpilgrim> presentational attributes, shelley doing the whatwg weekly, cats living with dogs
# [20:33] <mpilgrim> AryehGregor: i try not to go outside, it ruins my complexion
# [20:34] <AryehGregor> The yellow face, it burns us?
# [20:35] <mpilgrim> wow, i can not think of two people who deserve each other more than Dean Hachamovitch and Asa Dotzler
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# [20:36] <mpilgrim> i haven't been this entertained by trolls since Dave Winer learned that JSON was not XML
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# [20:38] <TabAtkins> mpilgrim: http://scripting.com/2006/12/20.html Heh, funny.
# [20:38] <mpilgrim> oh, you thought I was kidding?
# [20:38] <AryehGregor> If a resource is served with no caching headers, does that mean UAs are allowed to cache it at all?
# [20:39] <TabAtkins> mpilgrim: No, I just hadn't seen that before.
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# [20:41] <mpilgrim> AryehGregor: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec13.html#sec13.4
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# [20:41] <mpilgrim> "A response received with a status code of 200, 203, 206, 300, 301 or 410 MAY be stored by a cache and used in reply to a subsequent request, subject to the expiration mechanism, unless a cache-control directive prohibits caching."
# [20:41] <AryehGregor> mpilgrim, k, thanks.
# [20:42] <mpilgrim> in practice, i don't think it will be cached very long
# [20:42] <AryehGregor> It seems to be cached long enough to be annoying, for Firefox and Opera.
# [20:42] <AryehGregor> I'll reconfigure the web server.
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# [20:44] <mpilgrim> lol https://bug649408.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=525702
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# [20:47] <Ms2ger> Yay, blink tags!
# [20:47] <tw2113> long live the blink!
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# [20:49] <TabAtkins> @keyframes blink { 0% { opacity: 1; } 75% { opacity: 1; } 75.1% { opacity: 0; } 100% { opacity: 0; } } blink { animation: blink 1s infinite; }
# [20:51] <Peter`> Be careful, one day that might end up in css reset sheets :-p
# [20:52] * nimbupani adds to html5boilerplate
# [20:52] <paul_irish> +1
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# [20:56] <Philip`> "75.1%" - that looks like an ugly hack - isn't there a way to do two separate keyframes in/out of a single instant?
# [20:56] <TabAtkins> Nope.
# [20:56] <Philip`> How silly
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# [20:58] <TabAtkins> Assuming that the steps() timing function is supported, you do it with that. But otherwise, sharp transitions require that sort of hack.
# [20:58] <TabAtkins> The problem is that another design choice (allowing folding of similar keyframes together) required out-of-order keyframes to be allowed. Once you have that, you can't tell definitely that two keyframes at the same time represent a "before" and "after".
# [20:59] <TabAtkins> (I really should have written my animation as just "0%,75% { opacity: 1; } 75.1%,100% { opacity: 0; }".)
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# [21:15] <jgraham> Persoanally I think we should all promote "Naked HTML5"
# [21:16] <jgraham> Which, depending on your point of view is either just when you say "HTML5" and don't actually mean "CSS", or a special style of coding where you don't wear clothes
# [21:16] <jgraham> and get a little badge to put on the site that says "I supposrt naked HTML5"
# [21:17] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Why are you trying to add style rules dynamically?
# [21:17] <jgraham> If this is for testharness.js, you could just edit the stylesheet
# [21:17] <AryehGregor> jgraham, dynamically?
# [21:18] <AryehGregor> jgraham, testharness.js was adding inline "display: none" to thousands of rows when you unchecked one of the boxes. This is rather slow on big tables.
# [21:18] <jgraham> Weren't you asking how to add stylesheets to the page?
# [21:18] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I committed some changes already, take a look and see if you like them.
# [21:18] <AryehGregor> I just added some style elements, seems to work fine.
# [21:18] <jgraham> OK
# [21:19] <jgraham> Also, are you sure that it is table layout that takes a long time, not just building a table thousands of rows long?
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> jgraham, not totally sure, no.
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> Well, actually I'm sure it's layout.
# [21:19] <jgraham> Also also, I really wish there was a proper review system for hg
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> At least in Firefox.
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> Because it's really slow to check or uncheck the boxes.
# [21:20] <AryehGregor> I don't see how that could be anything but layout.
# [21:20] <AryehGregor> While we're talking, do you know of any way to add a doctype to an existing document that has no doctype, in Opera?
# [21:20] <AryehGregor> insertNode() seems to throw an exception.
# [21:21] <jgraham> I have no idea
# [21:21] <AryehGregor> NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR.
# [21:21] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
# [21:21] <jgraham> I would have to test or read the code :)
# [21:21] <jgraham> (and I wouldn't trust my ability to read the code)
# [21:21] <AryehGregor> I'd really like to not have to re-navigate my iframe whenever the doctype gets blown up.
# [21:23] <AryehGregor> Alternatively, does anyone know if it's possible to directly set the contentDocument of an iframe, to some Document object I have, instead of having to give a URL?
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# [21:26] <AryehGregor> Whoa, WTF, Opera allows moving a doctype to illegal positions in the DOM.
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# [21:26] <AryehGregor> Like as the child of an Element.
# [21:26] * AryehGregor works around it
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# [21:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Do you remember you and I discussing some improvement to Error objects a few months ago?
# [21:28] <TabAtkins> (Arun has some notes about an idea of mine, but I don't remember having any such idea.)
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# [22:05] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: There's plenty of other Opera people on the list
# [22:05] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, none that I knew.
# [22:05] <AryehGregor> At least I don't think I saw any.
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# [22:05] <gsnedders> Maybe not, but probably around half the layout group are.
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# [22:08] <AryehGregor> Then I guess they can answer?
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# [22:12] <GPHemsley> Hixie: typo "environements" around line 104722
# [22:12] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Pretty much
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# [22:25] <Hixie> GPHemsley: thanks
# [22:25] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i do not
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# [22:34] <AryehGregor> jgraham, is there some specific reason that there's no assert_not_equals()?
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# [22:48] <Hixie> this native html5 thing really is quite amusing
# [22:50] <zcorpan> "Basically browsers are limited in what they can do with Java, so to execute complex script without bogging down you need plugins, such as the Adobe Flash plugin." http://html5.tmcnet.com/topics/html5/articles/164722-microsoft-decides-support-html-5-let-games-beg.htm
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# [22:51] <Hixie> it's like microsoft don't know how to compete without criticising the competition
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# [22:53] <AryehGregor> Sheesh, insertNode() took a lot longer than I expected.
# [22:53] <AryehGregor> Mostly writing the tests . . .
# [22:53] <othermaciej> their promotional posts for IE do seem to focus a lot on why the competition is supposedly bad
# [22:53] <AryehGregor> Now I get to do surroundContents()!
# [22:54] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you have no idea how much i am enjoying not having to do the work you're doing :-)
# [22:54] <AryehGregor> Hixie, well, I'm happy doing it, so that's two of us. :)
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# [22:55] <Hixie> :-)
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# [23:08] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Regarding the @border=1 survey, would I be accurately summarizing one of your arguments as "@border=1 serves as a signal to non-CSS UAs that the table is non-presentational"?
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# [23:08] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, yes.
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# [23:08] <TabAtkins> kk. Any particular reason the existing signal defined for that purpose (the presence or absence of @aria-role=presentation) is insufficient?
# [23:09] <TabAtkins> Particularly given the current state of affairs, where presentational tables are okay if tagged in that way?
# [23:09] <Hixie> only in the w3c copy of the spec :-P
# [23:10] <TabAtkins> Well, yeah, but we're arguing about an HTMLWG decision, so the w3c copy is somewhat relevant.
# [23:10] <Hixie> (since the rationale for that made absolutely no sense)
# [23:10] <Hixie> fair enough
# [23:11] <Hixie> the way the spec currently defines border=1 is that it is an explicit indicator that the table is not a layout table
# [23:11] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that's a way to determine that the table *is* presentational, not that it's *not* presentational.
# [23:11] <Hixie> frankly if you want to argue a decision i'd concentrate more on the tables-for-layout one, the case against that one is much stronger
# [23:11] <AryehGregor> If you just write <table>, UAs can't safely assume it's non-presentational.
# [23:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, I will, I'm just annoyed that a paragraph from my objection was misinterpreted in the decision. I'm debating about whether or not to respond to Lief seriously here. It's probably a bad idea.
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# [23:12] <TabAtkins> I think I'll instead just point out that he has no idea what he's talking about, and he should read the Rendering section again.
# [23:12] <Hixie> dude the chairs have ignored entire e-mails of feedback, at least if they misinterpreted your paragraph that means they read it
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# [23:15] <TabAtkins> Given that Maciej authored the decision email, I have a (possibly mistaken?) hope that he'll respond reasonably.
# [23:16] <Hixie> another decision i'm worried about is the weird one about focus rings
# [23:16] <Hixie> i don't even understand that decision though
# [23:16] <Hixie> so it's harder to know how to argue against it
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# [23:24] <Hixie> anyone know of a good online tool for drawing state transition graphs?
# [23:25] <Hixie> doesn't have to have good exporting facilities
# [23:25] <Hixie> i'm just trying to sketch something out and ascii art isn't cutting it
# [23:25] <TabAtkins> SVG?
# [23:26] <TabAtkins> Omnigraffle is offline, but is supposed to be really good.
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# [23:29] <Hixie> something like omnigraffle would work
# [23:30] <Hixie> gliffy.com will do
# [23:30] <Hixie> though it's not automatically placing the nodes as i had hoped
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# [23:32] <Hixie> PS. I hate how Flash steals keyboard focus
# [23:32] <AryehGregor> I hate that too.
# [23:32] <Philip`> Hixie: Maybe draw it with pencil and paper?
# [23:33] * Philip` usually finds that easier than drawing anything on a computer
# [23:35] <AryehGregor> Did I seriously forget to specify that extractContents() et al. need to throw if the context object is detached?
# [23:35] <AryehGregor> Feh.
# [23:35] <AryehGregor> (the whole idea of being detached is ridiculous anyway)
# [23:35] <AryehGregor> Oh, no, wait, I didn't.
# [23:36] <AryehGregor> I'm just testing it differently.
# [23:36] <AryehGregor> k, all is well.
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# [23:38] <jgraham> AryehGregor: No specific reason. Please add if you need it
# [23:38] <AryehGregor> jgraham, k.
# [23:39] <AryehGregor> How sneaky. Someone evaded my "spec inbox" filter by sending to w3c.org instead of w3.org.
# [23:40] <AryehGregor> I suppose www.org would have been too confusing.
# [23:40] <AryehGregor> Although they do own it.
# [23:41] <jgraham> AryehGregor: For bonus points make it correct in the corner case where assert_equals is wrong
# [23:42] <AryehGregor> What case is that?
# [23:42] <jgraham> (hint: javascript has two zero values)
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# [23:43] <jgraham> (I will fix assert_equals at some point)
# [23:46] <AryehGregor> I already worked around that in format_value().
# [23:46] <AryehGregor> It's roughly one line.
# [23:46] <AryehGregor> So, it looks like IE is aiming to advertise itself as 10.0 in its UA string, not 9.8 or anything. Wonder how well that will go.
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# [23:47] <TabAtkins> I suspect they'll flinch when release time rolls around.
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# [23:52] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It also needs to be right in the assertions of course
# [23:52] <AryehGregor> What do you mean?
# [23:52] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, or they'll just add all major affected sites to their compatibility list.
# [23:52] <jgraham> like if (expected === 0) {assert(1/expected === 1/actual)}
# [23:53] <jgraham> Because +0 === -0
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Sure, that's possible.
# [23:53] <jgraham> But 1/+0 !== 1/-0
# [23:54] <AryehGregor> Why would anyone assert that?
# [23:54] <AryehGregor> I mean, maybe in theory, but doesn't seem likely in practice, right?
# [23:54] <jgraham> The point is that you might assert_equals(-0, 0), which should be false
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# [23:55] <jgraham> It seems unlikely in practice indeed
# [23:55] <jgraham> That's why I said "corner case"
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# [23:56] <AryehGregor> It came up in my reflection tests in some capacity or other.
# [23:56] <jgraham> But it would be nice to match the ES5 SameValue algorithm exactly
# [23:56] <AryehGregor> Well, not exactly.
# [23:56] <AryehGregor> Anyway, yeah.
# Session Close: Sat Apr 16 00:00:00 2011

The end :)