/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 04 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <zcorpan> hmm, the html element is still the-html-element-0
  4. # [00:00] <zcorpan> jirka's list was not complete
  5. # [00:00] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  6. # [00:01] <zcorpan> Hixie: can't you set an explicit id for all elements so they're guaranteed to be stable?
  7. # [00:02] <Hixie> i can, but it's a pain
  8. # [00:02] <Hixie> <html> has an explicit id now though
  9. # [00:02] <Hixie> it was in his list
  10. # [00:02] <zcorpan> oh
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  12. # [00:04] <zcorpan> ah yep, maybe the redeployment of developers.whatwg.org hadn't reached me yet. or i had it cached. or something
  13. # [00:05] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@199.223.125.118) (Quit: boaz)
  14. # [00:05] <zcorpan> but body is still broken
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> you have to reload developers.whatwg.org
  16. # [00:06] <Hixie> because it has appcache
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  18. # [00:07] <Hixie> fixing body
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  20. # [00:08] <benschwarz> zcorpan, Hixie — https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/commit/894f834a99628f82f7435639ba223a5e0b224858
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  22. # [00:08] <benschwarz> (also deployed)
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  25. # [00:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: video is also broken
  26. # [00:09] <Hixie> i fixed video, didn't i?
  27. # [00:10] * Hixie loosk
  28. # [00:10] <zcorpan> uh
  29. # [00:10] <zcorpan> yep video is in the diff
  30. # [00:10] <Hixie> yup
  31. # [00:10] <zcorpan> developers.whatwg.org refusing to update for me again
  32. # [00:10] <Hixie> didn't it take?
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  35. # [00:10] <Hixie> zcorpan: you have to wait for your browser to update the appcache
  36. # [00:10] <Hixie> zcorpan: then reload
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  38. # [00:11] <zcorpan> or wait, i wasn't even looking at developers.whatwg.org
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  41. # [00:14] <zcorpan> hmm. when reloading http://developers.whatwg.org/video.html a few times i get four "whatwg" logos and four "in this section" buttons
  42. # [00:15] <Hixie> o_O
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  46. # [00:17] <zcorpan> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdevelopers.whatwg.org%2Fvideo.html
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  48. # [00:19] <aho> so... what's the replacement for hgroup?
  49. # [00:19] <Hixie> aho: <hgroup> is still in html, just not in the w3c copy of html5.
  50. # [00:19] <Hixie> the w3c copy is missing many newer things.
  51. # [00:19] <aho> *scratches head*
  52. # [00:19] <Hixie> see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#is-this-html5?
  53. # [00:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok seems like all links are working now
  54. # [00:21] <aho> so, it still exists and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future?
  55. # [00:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: cool
  56. # [00:21] <Hixie> aho: yeah, it's not going anywhere. even the spec uses it.
  57. # [00:21] <aho> heh
  58. # [00:21] <aho> ok
  59. # [00:21] <aho> :)
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  61. # [00:22] <Hixie> (at least on the whatwg site... the w3c html spec uses html4, so it can't use hgroup or any of the new elements.)
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  63. # [00:23] <zcorpan> how come http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11828 is NEEDSINFO?
  64. # [00:26] <Hixie> resolution was changed by nicolasgallagher@mail.com
  65. # [00:26] <Hixie> @gmail, even
  66. # [00:26] <Hixie> dunno why
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  70. # [00:31] <zcorpan> also no comment about the spec checkin
  71. # [00:32] <zcorpan> oh sorry there was a comment
  72. # [00:32] <Hixie> my script is a bit bitchy when it comes to adding that comment
  73. # [00:33] <Hixie> something to do with encoding errors or something, i think
  74. # [00:33] <Hixie> it used to not commit at all if there was invalid utf-8, i think i fixed that but it's still not completely ok
  75. # [00:33] <Hixie> i haven't cared enough to investigate exactly what the problem is
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  88. # [00:48] <Hixie> anyone know if the idea of doing textarea.selectionDirection="backward" ever got implemented anywhere?
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  90. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> Not that I've heard of.
  91. # [00:49] <Hixie> should i just spec it or wait for impl experience?
  92. # [00:50] <aho> is specified what should happen if you click on the some input[type=text]'s label?
  93. # [00:51] <Hixie> more or less
  94. # [00:51] <aho> chrome and firefox select the text (if any), opera doesn't
  95. # [00:51] <Hixie> it should do the same as is normal on that platform
  96. # [00:51] <aho> hum
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  98. # [00:52] <aho> firefox doesn't select the search text in the find bar, if i click on the "find:" label
  99. # [00:52] <aho> clicking on some textfield's label doesn't seem to do anything in windows programs
  100. # [00:53] <Hixie> (note when drawing conclusions here that it might differ for different types of controls)
  101. # [00:53] <Hixie> (e.g. windows checkbox labels are interactive)
  102. # [00:53] <aho> oh yea... what does work in all browsers is clicking a button by clicking it's associated label (which is kinda weird)
  103. # [00:54] <aho> *its
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  105. # [00:55] <aho> i think opera does at least focus the text field
  106. # [00:56] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/labelfocus.html
  107. # [00:57] <aho> well, that was my use case basically... i didn't want to add js just to select that text
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  110. # [01:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm adding textarea.selectionDirection; is this something i should exclude from the w3c copy? i'm confused as to what counts as a new feature and what doesn't.
  111. # [01:03] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't know offhand what that is, but excluding it for now unless someone requests otherwise is a safe course
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  113. # [01:04] <Hixie> it's an attribute added to <input> and <textarea> to control what direction the selection is in
  114. # [01:04] <Hixie> goes with selectionStart and selectionEnd
  115. # [01:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm not really asking whether it's "safe", so much as what i should do
  116. # [01:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: if it helps, i request it :-)
  117. # [01:07] <othermaciej> if you leave it out, then probably no one will complain
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  119. # [01:07] <othermaciej> if you think no one will complain about adding it (seems like they probably wouldn't), then it seems fine to add it
  120. # [01:07] <Hixie> k
  121. # [01:07] <othermaciej> if in doubt, you can always ask on public-html
  122. # [01:08] <Hixie> that has too-high latency
  123. # [01:08] <othermaciej> didn't the i18n people request this a while ago?
  124. # [01:08] <othermaciej> or am I confusing it with something else?
  125. # [01:08] <Hixie> dunno
  126. # [01:08] <Hixie> i'm adding it based on feedback to the whatwg 0ist
  127. # [01:08] <Hixie> list
  128. # [01:09] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, I don't think it's relevant to i18n at all.
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  130. # [01:09] <AryehGregor> It's about which direction the user selected the text in, nothing to do with the text direction.
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  132. # [01:09] <othermaciej> oh
  133. # [01:10] <othermaciej> in that case I have no idea what it's about so I have no real opinion
  134. # [01:10] * zcorpan thinks someone will complain on the basis that there's always someone who complains for just about anything
  135. # [01:11] <AryehGregor> It seems unlikely to be controversial.
  136. # [01:11] <AryehGregor> As much as anything is.
  137. # [01:11] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's the equivalent of m_baseIsFirst is webkit, as i understand it
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  139. # [01:12] <Hixie> AryehGregor: so should setSelectionRange() reset the direction to forward or preserve the direction? (i'm adding an optional argument to set the direction, but i mean in the absence of that)
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  141. # [01:12] <AryehGregor> Hixie, if it helps, Selection.removeAllRanges() resets the direction, but calling removeRange() on the last range doesn't. :)
  142. # [01:13] <Hixie> if we make it preserve the direction then pages that try to preserve the selection today will magically work better
  143. # [01:13] <Hixie> but pages that try to reset the selection will have the direction the user last used, somewhat arbitrarily
  144. # [01:13] <AryehGregor> Selection.collapse() doesn't reset direction per spec, but I don't know if that's correct.
  145. # [01:14] <AryehGregor> I'd say reset it, offhand.
  146. # [01:14] <Hixie> k
  147. # [01:14] <AryehGregor> It's simpler, it only gives two behaviors.
  148. # [01:14] <AryehGregor> Also, it won't make anything work any worse than it currently does.
  149. # [01:14] <AryehGregor> Actually, how would it make anything work better, except by chance?
  150. # [01:15] <AryehGregor> I mean, the alternative.
  151. # [01:15] <AryehGregor> Of preserving the current direction.
  152. # [01:15] * AryehGregor shrugs
  153. # [01:15] <Hixie> it would mean pages that today remember the start/end would magically also remember the direction
  154. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> How?
  155. # [01:16] <Hixie> nothing would reset the direction
  156. # [01:16] <Hixie> so... it would be preserved
  157. # [01:16] <Hixie> am i missing something?
  158. # [01:16] <Hixie> this seems simple :-)
  159. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> The user selecting something different would reset the direction.
  160. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> Or are you saying in the case where the user didn't select something different?
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  162. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> I.e., the point is that setSelectionRange() with the current start and end is a no-op?
  163. # [01:16] <Hixie> sure, but if the user selects something, then the script manipulates the control and puts the selection back, it would presevre the direction
  164. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Manipulates the control how?
  165. # [01:17] <Hixie> (sure was to your first of the three lines here)
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  167. # [01:17] <Hixie> input.value = 'abc' + input.value + 'def'; or whatever
  168. # [01:17] <Hixie> the problem we're trying to solve here
  169. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Oh, hmm.
  170. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> Have you defined what value changes do to the selection info?
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  172. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> Are you suggesting that setting the value should clear the selection but preserve its direction, even when there's no selection?
  173. # [01:18] <Hixie> i don't think it's specced currently
  174. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> I dunno, I still think it's simpler to reset.
  175. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> More deterministic.
  176. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> Especially if we don't spec what causes selection to change.
  177. # [01:19] <Hixie> sounds good
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  179. # [01:22] <Hixie> hm, Mac selections have three directions
  180. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> I think someone mentioned that.
  181. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> It sounds evil.
  182. # [01:23] <Hixie> i didn't see anything about mac in the thread
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  185. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> In other threads, about Selection.
  186. # [01:24] <Hixie> ah
  187. # [01:25] <Hixie> well i'm gonna have three values, forward,backward,none
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  189. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> That doesn't match Selection, FWIW.
  190. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Probably best to keep them in sync.
  191. # [01:25] <Hixie> how do you model a mac neutral selection?
  192. # [01:25] <Hixie> i'll use whatever you do
  193. # [01:26] <Hixie> don't want conflicting terminology
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  220. # [01:51] <benschwarz> Hixie: I was offline— what does zcorpan mean by
  221. # [01:52] <benschwarz> saying that its not updating for him?
  222. # [01:53] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i've gone with "none" for now, file a bug to let me know what you used instead and i'll update accordingly
  223. # [01:53] <Hixie> benschwarz: dunno
  224. # [01:53] <Hixie> benschwarz: he was saying there's some sort of corruption or something
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  226. # [01:53] <Hixie> benschwarz: see the validator link he sent
  227. # [01:53] <benschwarz> Hixie: I'll have to ask him…
  228. # [01:53] <benschwarz> nope
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  230. # [01:54] <Hixie> benschwarz: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdevelopers.whatwg.org%2Fvideo.html
  231. # [01:54] <Hixie> i gotta go, meeting
  232. # [01:54] <Hixie> bbiab
  233. # [01:55] <benschwarz> holy shit
  234. # [01:55] <benschwarz> ok
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  262. # [03:02] <jamesr> are thingies defined on IDL functions or methods?
  263. # [03:02] <jamesr> thingies that you can call, that is
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  271. # [03:12] <heycam> jamesr, "operations" :(
  272. # [03:12] <heycam> maybe I should change that, sounds sucky
  273. # [03:12] * heycam lunches
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  275. # [03:13] <jamesr> clearTimeout in the WHATWG spec uses 'method'
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  287. # [03:45] <jamesr> anyone around familiar with mercurial?
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  332. # [05:47] * GPHemsley wonders where to report typos in the latest CSS 2.1 spec
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  334. # [05:52] <GPHemsley> The mailing list, I guess?
  335. # [05:53] <heycam> yes I think that's fine
  336. # [05:56] <tw2113> is it a typo that makes things sort of work in IE6?
  337. # [06:04] <GPHemsley> tw2113: It's much less important than that. :)
  338. # [06:05] <GPHemsley> s/less important/smaller/, if you prefer
  339. # [06:05] <GPHemsley> (e-mail sent, FWIW)
  340. # [06:05] <tw2113> if it broke things in IE6, and you were trying to fix it, i was going to have to stop you
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  452. # [11:03] <jgraham> "Holy crap, I though that I'm member of working group and not a member of
  453. # [11:03] <jgraham> absurd comedy company here."
  454. # [11:03] <jgraham> You must be new here?
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  477. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> heh
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  483. # [12:33] <hsivonen> is the first Ask Professor Markup box correct per spec on http://diveintohtml5.org/offline.html ?
  484. # [12:33] <hsivonen> the one that says "Every page of your web application needs a manifest attribute that points to the cache manifest for the entire application."
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  486. # [12:37] <hsivonen> boohoo. the spec, dev.opera.com and Dive into HTML5 all make it hard to find out at a glance if the app cache events fire on window, document or window.applicationCache
  487. # [12:38] <hsivonen> ah. the specs answers the question in a non-normative section http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#appcacheevents
  488. # [12:38] <hsivonen> I failed to work it out from the normative bits
  489. # [12:39] <Lachy> hsivonen, it's probably wise to confirm that in the normative bits, since I've come across non-normative parts in the spec that contradicted the normative parts
  490. # [12:44] <hsivonen> testing this stuff sure is hard
  491. # [12:49] <hsivonen> ok. there's something wrong with my test case, since I get the checking event but not the cached event
  492. # [12:51] <hsivonen> great. one of my cache manifest entries pointed to a non-existent file
  493. # [12:51] <hsivonen> Dive into HTML5 is right about debugging this stuff!
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  506. # [13:51] <hsivonen> how do I ask an app cache error event object what went wrong?
  507. # [13:52] <hsivonen> ok. now I see what went wrong without asking the object...
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  517. # [14:04] <hsivonen> soo. if I navigate a window.open()ed window via the outer window object, I'm supposed to get a load event visible to the outer window, right?
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  552. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hyphenation feature looks pretty cool
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  555. # [15:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah. too bad it seems the dictionaries total to too many bytes to be all bundled always
  556. # [15:27] <mpilgrim> lol </hgroup>
  557. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, well, that's to be expected I guess
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  559. # [15:30] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: if Professor Markup is wrong, I'll happily make corrections
  560. # [15:30] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: seems to me that hgroup is one of those things were Hixie gets yelled at by the usual suspects no matter what
  561. # [15:31] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: I have a bug assigned to me where the premise of the bug disagrees with Professor Markup
  562. # [15:32] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: so at least Firefox 3.6 made it possible to load an HTML file that itself doesn't have a manifest attribute from a previously declared app cache
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  564. # [15:32] <mpilgrim> what happens when you visit that HTML file?
  565. # [15:34] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: "if there is no such attribute, or its value is the empty string, or resolving its value fails, run the application cache selection algorithm with no manifest"
  566. # [15:34] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: which is what Firefox 3.6 does
  567. # [15:34] <hsivonen> and Firefox 4 doesn't
  568. # [15:34] <hsivonen> and hopefully Firefox 5 will do
  569. # [15:35] <mpilgrim> Slightly confused. what should Professor Markup say instead?
  570. # [15:35] * mamund_ is here
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  572. # [15:36] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: that if the user has previously visited an HTML file that caused an application cache to be populated, it is then possible to navigate to other HTML pages that were declared in the manifest of the first page but that don't themselves need a manifest because they got cached already
  573. # [15:37] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: except that this doesn't work in Firefox 4 due to this bug
  574. # [15:37] <mpilgrim> what happens if the user navigates to those unlisted HTML pages first, before visiting a page with a manifest attribute?
  575. # [15:37] <mpilgrim> the page isn't listed in a manifest, and there's no manifest attribute, so it's just a regular online page
  576. # [15:37] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: then the browser hits the server
  577. # [15:38] <mpilgrim> that's an inconsistent experience
  578. # [15:38] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: maybe
  579. # [15:38] <mpilgrim> the page is allegedly part of an offline web app
  580. # [15:38] <mpilgrim> except it depends on which page you hit first
  581. # [15:38] <mpilgrim> try debugging THAT
  582. # [15:38] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: but it addresses the problem you, IIRC, had that you had to bother people with the caching authorization on all diveintohtml5 entry points
  583. # [15:39] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: as opposed to having one URL for bootstrapping an offline experience
  584. # [15:39] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: anyway, I don't try to defend the spec
  585. # [15:39] <mpilgrim> ah. that's interesting.
  586. # [15:39] <mpilgrim> a "go offline" page
  587. # [15:39] <mpilgrim> yes, now i see it
  588. # [15:39] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: I'm not even trying to understand the spec beyond fixing the bug and, worse, writing the test case for it
  589. # [15:40] <hsivonen> (which we evidently need to have, because if we had had it in time, we wouldn't have shipped Firefox 4 with this bug)
  590. # [15:41] <mpilgrim> more test cases is always the right answer
  591. # [15:41] <mpilgrim> now i'm trying to figure out how to phrase this in Professor Markup-speak
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  596. # [15:45] <jgraham> Writing automated offline tests for the testsuite is going to be "fun"
  597. # [15:45] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  598. # [15:45] <jgraham> I wonder what tests we have for that…
  599. # [15:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: can't do it without a special powers API that allows you to grant offline caching authorization and to move the browser to the offline mode
  600. # [15:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: I also added a way to evict normal HTTP cache entries into our special powers API
  601. # [15:47] <hsivonen> in order to test this
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  606. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think we are going to need similar special-powers APIs for some other things
  607. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> e.g., the Geolocation API
  608. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> and the Web Notifications API
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  610. # [15:53] <jgraham> For geolocation and device orientation it's not really clear what you can do
  611. # [15:53] <jgraham> Or for notifications really
  612. # [15:53] <jgraham> Unless the plan is to have some magic environment that mocks out the real world
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  614. # [15:53] <jgraham> But that seems… complex
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  621. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> jgraham: what about the WATIR stuff?
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  624. # [16:00] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I don't think that has the capacity to lie about system API calls
  625. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> ok
  626. # [16:00] <jgraham> which is probably what you would need to test e.g. geoloc
  627. # [16:01] <jgraham> Well apart from manual testing ofc
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  630. # [16:02] <wilhelm_> You could fake it somewhere inside the browser. And expose an API for poking the system API-faking-API with Watir or JavaScript.
  631. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> seem like you could you make it automateable using a browser build that had the API-lying support compiled in
  632. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> that is, not a build that you would actually make available to end users
  633. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> or however
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  635. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> my point being you can test with a browser build that had some dangerous stuff enabled just for the purposes of making the testing automateable
  636. # [16:06] <jgraham> Yes you could
  637. # [16:06] <wilhelm_> I doubt exposing that in public builds would be particularly harmful, though. Once a Watir script has control over your browser, it can mess up anything it wants to anyway. (c:
  638. # [16:06] <jgraham> There is of course the danger that the code is broken in the real environment
  639. # [16:07] <wilhelm_> Yes. And faking the location is useful if you're writing tests for a location-based web application too.
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  641. # [16:08] <Philip`> Just add a precondition to the test case that says you have to move your computer to a particular location before running it
  642. # [16:08] <Philip`> Get Google to donate an office for it or something
  643. # [16:08] <wilhelm_> Woo! Free travels!
  644. # [16:08] <Philip`> preferably in an area without much seismic activity so it's not going to move frequently
  645. # [16:10] <jgraham> No California trip then. Much less Japan.
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  647. # [16:17] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  648. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> heh
  649. # [16:20] * mamund_ is now known as mamund
  650. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> somewhat ironically, I now use a browser extension that pops up a notification any time there's an earthquake here that's magnitude 4 or greater
  651. # [16:21] <wilhelm_> So every few hours, then?
  652. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> there is a similar feature enabled in most mobiles here too
  653. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> wilhelm_: yep, pretty much
  654. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> get the notification, then 15 seconds or so later, feel the earthquake
  655. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> since most of them currently are still coming from the same fault where the big one happeneed
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  658. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: about the element-id changes
  659. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> you will probably need to update some links in the HTML5-HTML4 diffs doc
  660. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> actually, there are already some broken links in that doc, btw
  661. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> I have just been fixing them each time we publish a WD
  662. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> I mean, I have been fixing them in the WD
  663. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> not in the source ED
  664. # [16:28] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ah. yeah, file a bug and i'll go through the links
  665. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> but they should probably be fixed in the ED before we publish the Last Call draft
  666. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> hai
  667. # [16:29] <foolip> Philip`, the spec splitter seems to have gone bonkers, <video> is now part of the iframe document: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#the-video-element
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  669. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> foolip: been that way for a while
  670. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> not bonkers
  671. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> it's expected behavior
  672. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> the file names are just generated from whatever ID is at the point where it does the split
  673. # [16:31] <Philip`> It's expected to be bonkers
  674. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> heh
  675. # [16:31] <foolip> ok, and it's intentional that iframe and video are in the same chunk?
  676. # [16:32] <zcorpan> before video+audio+source was on one page and media elements was on one page
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  678. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> Philip`: doesn't it have some way to force splits at particular places?
  679. # [16:32] <Philip`> It tries to split on id="video" but it looks like that's been renamed to id="the-video-element"
  680. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> aha
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  682. # [16:32] <foolip> so it is a bug then :)
  683. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> hmm, the W3C version was already doing that, I think
  684. # [16:33] <Philip`> It does give the impression of being a bug
  685. # [16:34] <zcorpan> i'd prefer if there was a split just before the video element so that all video-related stuff is on one page
  686. # [16:34] <foolip> looks like Hixie renamed a bunch of things: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6049&to=6050
  687. # [16:34] <foolip> might want to go through that and see if there was any other unintended breakage
  688. # [16:35] <foolip> there are a few more similar commits
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  690. # [16:35] <Philip`> Might be better to start from scratch and redo all the split ids, since things have probably been added or grown or rearranged in the meantime so the splits won't be sensible anyway
  691. # [16:36] <Philip`> plus there's some bug you reported aeons ago that I never bothered doing anything about
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  693. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> looking at split_exceptions in http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py it doesn't look so much would have to change due the ID renaming at least
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  703. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm working on adding support for http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=828 and will have a patch to you by tomorrow
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  705. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> after that I don't have any feature changes that I'm planning to add soon
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  707. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> I would really like to add the Prohibit Duplicate Charset Declarations thing
  708. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=589
  709. # [17:01] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  710. # [17:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok.
  711. # [17:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you decide to implement microformat wiki scraping?
  712. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no, thought about it
  713. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> but what I would like to propose to you instead is that we just hardcode the values
  714. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> and then update them when the page gets updated
  715. # [17:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: radical
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  717. # [17:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I was thinking of actually implementing the scraping in the near future if you aren't doing it
  718. # [17:03] <jgraham> MikeSmith: On an entirely different topic did you come to any conclusion about annotated versions of the spec for test coverage?
  719. # [17:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but your suggestion is a radically easy approximation
  720. # [17:03] <jgraham> (feel free to queue replying to that question indefinitely)
  721. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> yeah, I think it will make our lives easier
  722. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: same goes for meta name checking
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  725. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I have not come to any conclusion
  726. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> but in the mean time, Peter Linss told me about something similar he has put together
  727. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> example at http://test.csswg.org/cascade.html
  728. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> Has HP already allowed him to release his code?
  729. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> scroll down, see the test-annotation boxes
  730. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: dunno
  731. # [17:07] <jgraham> Interesting
  732. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> the beauty of that thing is that it to make it work, all you have to do is add a single script to a copy of whatever spec you want to do it for
  733. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> <script src='http://test.csswg.org/harness/annotate.js#CSS21_RC6' type='text/javascript' defer></script>
  734. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> frag ID tells it what test suite you want it to use
  735. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> of course it does require you have the spec set up in a certain way
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  738. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> and it only lets you associate tests with existing IDs
  739. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> I think
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  743. # [17:10] <jgraham> It would be neat to do per-section then per-regexp for better granularity
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  745. # [17:12] <foolip> Philip`, would you like a bug in some kind of BTS, or will the link http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#getting-media-metadata magically start working when you decide to fix it?
  746. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> btw, I can't add the Prohibit Duplicate Charset Declarations because it's blocked on Hixie actually making it clear in the spec what the expected validator behavior should be. I guess I should ping him about it
  747. # [17:14] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: just implement what you think the spec should say, tell Hixie what you implemented and if he specs something different you whine about it until he makes the spec say what you implemented
  748. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> heh
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  750. # [17:15] <jgraham> zcorpan: Ssh you are giving away the secrets of the vast browser-wing conspiracy
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  752. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: because Hixie clearly always responds very positively to whining
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  754. # [17:15] <zcorpan> oh this is #whatwg? wrong window
  755. # [17:16] <Philip`> foolip: That link ought to work already, since the 404 page is meant to redirect, but it looks like Hixie broke the 404 page there :-(
  756. # [17:17] <zcorpan> the 404 page was not found?
  757. # [17:17] * Philip` has no idea when it last used to work
  758. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> it works still in the W3C version I think
  759. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> or did a couple days ago at least
  760. # [17:19] <Philip`> foolip: I seem to generally ignore BTSes and emails etc, so they're probably not a good way to get me to do things
  761. # [17:19] <Philip`> I could probably try doing it this afternoon if I have time before I forget, though
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  763. # [17:19] <foolip> Philip`, ok, so I'll poke you here every time I get annoyed :)
  764. # [17:19] <Philip`> That's the most reliale approach :-)
  765. # [17:20] <zcorpan> foolip: set up a bot that pings Philip` on irc every hour
  766. # [17:20] <zcorpan> or with random intervals
  767. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> btw, i'm wondering again about the fact that given that we have validator conformance criteria defined in the spec, if we hold that to the "two interoperable implementations" requirement, we are going to end up blocking progress of the spec out of CR for quite a long while. unless somebody puts a couple thousand or so man hours into implementing another validator
  768. # [17:21] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: depends on what we decide the CR exit criteria should be
  769. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> yeah
  770. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> I can't recall, but maybe the last time we talked about this, the sentiment was that having one validator implementation for those assertions was enough
  771. # [17:22] <zcorpan> we aren't gonna get two implementations of all possible conformance classes
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  773. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> true, I guess
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  775. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> but it really would be good to have another validator implementation to compare things with
  776. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> and to compete against
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  779. # [17:24] <hsivonen> I really need to get to pending non-Gecko work for real
  780. # [17:24] <hsivonen> (validator, standalone parser in C++)
  781. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> standalone parser in Javascript…
  782. # [17:25] <Ms2ger> In Haskell...
  783. # [17:25] <hsivonen> maybe I should allocate days in a round-robin fashion to these tasks
  784. # [17:25] <hsivonen> otherwise, the Gecko stuff will continue starving everything else
  785. # [17:26] <hober> MikeSmith: there already is one, though it's not hsivonen's
  786. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> hober: yeah, I know
  787. # [17:27] <hsivonen> actually, it's HTML5 parser in Gecko fallout that's starving everything else
  788. # [17:27] <hsivonen> including the Gecko XML codepath rewrite
  789. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> hober: and it's conformant now too, right?
  790. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> hober: the only downside of that I noticed is that it seems to be relatively slow
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  792. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> hober: like, it takes about 1 minute and 30 seconds to parse the HTML5 spec
  793. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> whereas Henri's parser takes only a few seconds, maybe 5 seconds or less
  794. # [17:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you test both with a browser-provided DOM impl?
  795. # [17:30] <hsivonen> or does the other parser always use a pure-JS DOM?
  796. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> that
  797. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> I think
  798. # [17:30] <hsivonen> ok
  799. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> so I guess it's not surprising that it's slower
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  802. # [17:33] <hsivonen> JITted JS shouldn't be *that* slow
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  805. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: well, I tested it in node, actually
  806. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> but it's still JITted there too, I would think
  807. # [17:37] <jgraham> It's possible they hit a slow case in V8 string handling
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  809. # [17:37] <jgraham> http://my.opera.com/emoller/blog/2011/05/01/javascript-performance
  810. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> I think the slowness in this case may be from jsdom, which this html5 JS parser depends on
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  813. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> hmm, or it doesn't depend on it itself
  814. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> but the parsing test I tried does
  815. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm sure hober knows far more about the details then me
  816. # [17:42] <hober> I'm pretty sure the longest document I've shoved into aria's parser is at least a couple of orders of magnitude smaller than the html5 spec
  817. # [17:42] <hober> so I can't say the performance has bothered me :)
  818. # [17:42] <Philip`> I presume a JS parser shouldn't be any slower than the Python html5lib one
  819. # [17:43] <Philip`> (although that's certainly a lot slower than a Java or C one)
  820. # [17:43] <hober> oh hey, MikeSmith, any chance you'll be in kyoto around the time of the css & svg f2fs?
  821. # [17:44] <jgraham> I would assume that a js parser should be faster
  822. # [17:44] <jgraham> If it was well optimised
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  825. # [17:45] <jgraham> Although I would be interested in profiling html5lib in PyPy to see what's slow
  826. # [17:46] <jgraham> (it is supposedly about twice as fast as CPython)
  827. # [17:47] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  828. # [17:49] <gsnedders> http://speed.pypy.org/comparison/?exe=2%2B35%2C4%2B35%2C1%2BL%2C3%2BL&ben=6&env=1&hor=false&bas=2%2B35&chart=normal+bars
  829. # [17:50] <gsnedders> Interestingly that claims Pysco makes html5lib *slower*
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  832. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> hober: I can certainly plan to head down there, especially if you're planning to be there
  833. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> I also encourage you to visit Tokyo if you can, before or after you go to Kyoto
  834. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> you're welcome to stay at my place if you do, though it's really small
  835. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> it's kind of like hanging out in a treehouse
  836. # [18:01] * Ms2ger loves treehouses
  837. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> or a moonshiner shack
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  844. # [18:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: Psyco make html5lib much faster when I tested it ages ago, I believe
  845. # [18:18] <Philip`> s/make/made/
  846. # [18:18] <Philip`> where "much" might be a factor of 2x or so
  847. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> what's Psyco?
  848. # [18:20] <Philip`> I tried writing a trivial tokeniser in Python that just understood element names (I think), with the input just being a string, and tried iterating over characters or using regexps etc, and couldn't find any way that was appreciably faster than running the whole of html5lib on the same string
  849. # [18:20] <Philip`> so I think that's the main bottleneck and I think it's probably impossible to overcome with pure Python :-(
  850. # [18:21] <Philip`> MikeSmith: It's kind of a JIT for Python
  851. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> ok, yeah
  852. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> I was just reading the Info page for it
  853. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> pretty impressive
  854. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> hober: what are the dates for the CVS f2f?
  855. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> (or anybody else who knows)
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  858. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> 2-4 June (Thu-Sat) it seems
  859. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> "1 Jun is a forum with designers, implementers, etc."
  860. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> and SVG f2f the beginning of the week after that
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  862. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> hober: fwiw, I will be around during those dates
  863. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> from the 6th to the 10th, I have to go to Beijing
  864. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> so if you wanted to visit Tokyo during those days, you would be welcome to have my apartment to your own then
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  867. # [18:38] * jgraham likes the idea of a CVS f2f
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  869. # [18:39] * Ms2ger screams at the idea
  870. # [18:39] <jgraham> "So… guys… everyone hates us. Hell we even hate ourselves. Beer?"
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  874. # [18:42] <karlcow> houla… dean waking up threads which are 4 years old
  875. # [18:43] <hober> MikeSmith: I think I'm flying through kansai, so the odds are sadly low that I'll make it that far north
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  886. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> hober: OK. anyway, there is plenty to do and see in Kyoto/Osaka area
  887. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> and people in that area are usually a lot more fun to spend time with than people in Tokyo anyway :)
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  920. # [20:02] <Hixie> wow, multipage/ has been broken since feb 8 and nobody noticed until now
  921. # [20:02] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/#!/johnfoliot/status/65815344433991680
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  923. # [20:02] <Hixie> i suck
  924. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> Hixie, broken how?
  925. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> I've been using it on almost a daily basis.
  926. # [20:02] <Hixie> the 404 page is missing, and the htaccess file is bogus in various ways
  927. # [20:02] <hsivonen> I only use multipage or the parser and the parser has been stable
  928. # [20:02] <Hixie> the content still works
  929. # [20:03] <hsivonen> I use single-page for everything else
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  931. # [20:05] <Hixie> ok 404 page fixed
  932. # [20:05] <Hixie> what was the thing MikeSmith was blocked on?
  933. # [20:05] <Hixie> something about Prohibit Duplicate Charset Declarations?
  934. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah
  935. # [20:06] <Hixie> is there a bug# or e-mail?
  936. # [20:06] <Hixie> i'm not sure what the problem is
  937. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> yeah, hang on
  938. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> lemme find it
  939. # [20:06] <Hixie> or just tell me the problem :-)
  940. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12054
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  942. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> problem is, I can't tell from the spec what the document-conformance criteria are for the case of multiple character-encoding declarations in a document
  943. # [20:07] * Hixie looks
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  946. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: basically, if you just add one sentence saying something like "There must be only one character encoding declaration in the document.", then I think that's all we need
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  948. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> or however you want to state it
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  951. # [20:10] <Hixie> apparently that's not quite accurate
  952. # [20:10] <Hixie> there's a comment in the spec:
  953. # [20:10] <Hixie>
  954. # [20:10] <Hixie> <li>There can only be one character encoding declaration in the
  955. # [20:10] <Hixie> document.</li> <!-- conformance criteria for this one are given in
  956. # [20:10] <Hixie> the XML spec, the <meta> section just after defining charset="",
  957. # [20:10] <Hixie> and the character encoding pragma section. And actually this
  958. # [20:10] <Hixie> statement isn't quite true, since you can have an XML one and an
  959. # [20:10] <Hixie> HTML one at the same time if they match. -->
  960. # [20:10] <Hixie>
  961. # [20:11] <Hixie> what prohibits there being two <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"> headers is "There must not be more than one meta element with any particular state in the document at a time."
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  963. # [20:12] <Hixie> so you can't have multiple <meta charset>s, you can't have multiple "meta http-equiv="Content-Type">s, and you can't have one of each
  964. # [20:12] <Hixie> but you _can_ have both an XML one and an HTML one, so long as they match
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  967. # [20:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: but in that case they must say utf-8, right
  968. # [20:20] <Hixie> right
  969. # [20:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i've clarified the statements a bit
  970. # [20:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: hopefully it'll help
  971. # [20:20] <MikeSmith> OK
  972. # [20:20] <Hixie> regenning now
  973. # [20:20] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  975. # [20:21] <MikeSmith> I appreciate it
  976. # [20:21] <Hixie> (note, if you have both the xml one and the html one, it must be an xml doc, it must be utf-8 as hsivonen says, and it must be <meta charset>, no <meta content-type text/html> in xml)
  977. # [20:22] <Hixie> ok, committed
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  998. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> On what basis are WML or XHTML-MP actually harmful? Assuming that there are devices out there that cannot realistically handle full HTML, isn't an alternative standard needed regardless?
  999. # [21:03] <Hixie> wml resulted in two webs
  1000. # [21:03] <Hixie> yet was no lighter on UAs than HTML
  1001. # [21:03] <Hixie> XHTML-MP didn't go anywhere useful so i don't know that it was harmful in practice
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  1003. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> So is WML an argument against forking?
  1004. # [21:07] <wilhelm_> Hixie: It cost certain browser vendors a lot of time, frustration and some added compexity.
  1005. # [21:08] <wilhelm_> Not quite as much as ES-MP (oh, please kill me now), but still harmful.
  1006. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> I guess WML is a weaker argument against forking than HTML5 is in favor of forking, because WML eventually died.
  1007. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Since it was the worse standard.
  1008. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Which is the point.
  1009. # [21:09] <wilhelm_> Oh, it's still around.
  1010. # [21:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: forking itself is terrible
  1011. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Oh, hmm.
  1012. # [21:10] <Hixie> AryehGregor: allowing forking is indispensible
  1013. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> Okay, I'll have to revise a lot of what I just wrote.
  1014. # [21:10] <Hixie> AryehGregor: well, successful forking such that there are multiple active incompatible forks is terrible, anyway
  1015. # [21:10] <Hixie> AryehGregor: but that's what most people mean when they refer to forks
  1016. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> So really the argument is that competing standards are very bad, but a single bad standard is even worse -- because then it will just compete against nonstandard technologies.
  1017. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> And lose, since it's bad.
  1018. # [21:13] <wilhelm_> On the Web, I'd say HTML5 really is the odd one out. One beneficial fork among many harmful.
  1019. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> Were the harmful forks, all added together, as harmful to the open web as Flash?
  1020. # [21:13] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1021. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> Which got almost total market share because HTML stagnated and didn't add support for basic things like video?
  1022. # [21:14] <Hixie> flash has done both good and bad to the web
  1023. # [21:14] <hober> wilhelm_: how is the W3C fork of HTML5 not harmful?
  1024. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> Man, you guys are really making it hard for me to write a persuasive argument. :P
  1025. # [21:14] <Hixie> hober: i assume he meant the fork in 2004
  1026. # [21:14] <hober> oh, indeed. that was quite harmful.
  1027. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> What good has Flash done, compared to the same standards being standardized in comparable timeframes?
  1028. # [21:15] <wilhelm_> Yes, I was referring to 2004.
  1029. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> Or are we assuming they wouldn't have been, even if forking were allowed? Since in fact, forking was allowed . . .
  1030. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> Effectively.
  1031. # [21:15] * Joins: ilkeavelho (d036041f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.4.31)
  1032. # [21:15] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you need an R&D lab
  1033. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> I mean, is this really mostly a moral argument and not an empirical one, here?
  1034. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> I guess it has to be, since the result is irrelevant given that HTML5 is forkable anyway.
  1035. # [21:16] <Hixie> AryehGregor: flash and gears both did significant research, effectively, into how to improve the web
  1036. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> That could have been done with prototype standards too.
  1037. # [21:16] <wilhelm_> Yes. A great way to establish cowpaths for us to pave later. (c:
  1038. # [21:17] <Hixie> what's a "prototype standard"?
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  1042. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> Something where you devise it with the goal from the beginning of standardizing it, soliciting feedback early on and planning to retire it in favor an equivalent standard when one becomes available.
  1043. # [21:18] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  1044. # [21:18] <Hixie> othermaciej: any chair instructions at this time? (either on hgroup or on drawfocusring, or anything else for that matter)
  1045. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> Like how a lot of new standards are developed.
  1046. # [21:19] <Hixie> AryehGregor: proprietary extensions to UAs, you mean?
  1047. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Vendor-specific, let's say, yes. Could be extensions too.
  1048. # [21:19] <Hixie> AryehGregor: sure. that's what flash is. :-)
  1049. # [21:19] <Hixie> at least, up to the bit about adobe's intent
  1050. # [21:19] <Hixie> dunno what their intent is
  1051. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> There's no way to integrate Flash into web standards. It's a totally different platform.
  1052. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> As opposed to adding features that are accessible from HTML/CSS/JS, and could be easily translated to standards.
  1053. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Plus, there's no attempt to get wider feedback or plan for multiple interoperable implementations from an early stage. That makes a big difference.
  1054. # [21:21] <Hixie> it's a spectrum
  1055. # [21:21] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Forking seems to be bad when people want to use it to create a platform that isn't the web
  1056. # [21:21] <Hixie> i agree flash isn't in the ideal place on the spectrum for use as R&D
  1057. # [21:21] <Hixie> it's still there, though
  1058. # [21:21] <jgraham> But they do that regardless of the license so it's not a very strong argument against forking
  1059. # [21:21] * Joins: matijsb (~matijsb@5353CD69.cm-6-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1060. # [21:22] <jgraham> The best way to counter that is to make the web platform better
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  1062. # [21:22] <jgraham> And forking can be essential to that end
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  1065. # [21:26] <Hixie> there are lots of reasons why allowing forking is beneficial. as far as i'm aware, none of the arguments in favour of disallowing forking would actually prevent the problems they portend.
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  1068. # [21:26] <Hixie> that's the crux of the argument, imho.
  1069. # [21:26] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  1070. # [21:27] * AryehGregor tries rewriting a second time
  1071. # [21:27] <Hixie> heh
  1072. # [21:28] <wilhelm_> Diverging specifications isn't really a problem in itself. It's when there are diverging implementations the trouble starts.
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  1075. # [21:32] <jgraham> wilhelm_: To a point. But XHTML2 was damaging even though no one implemented it because W3C decided that what the world needed was a backwards-incompatible clean-up of HTML4 with no substantial changes in the feature set and a less forgiving parsing model. To get there they blocked (or tried to block) work on what was actually good for the web
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  1080. # [21:34] <wilhelm_> jgraham: Sure. And that triggered the 2004 fork, which is the one beneficial HTML fork among a pile of harmful ones. (c:
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  1082. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Hixie, see, if the W3C could actually license HTML5 restrictively (no WHATWG copy), it would prevent forks very effectively, at least forks that plan to be compatible with existing contents.
  1083. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> content.
  1084. # [21:35] <wilhelm_> AryehGregor: Nah. You could do a diff spec.
  1085. # [21:35] <jgraham> So one impact of granting others the ability to fork is that it lessens the burden of decision making because it is much more likely that someone will pick up the pieces if it all goes wrong
  1086. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> wilhelm_, only if you wanted to change limited parts.
  1087. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Also, diffs might be derivative works.
  1088. # [21:36] <Hixie> AryehGregor: WF2 was a diff spec of HTML4 originally
  1089. # [21:36] <jgraham> wilhelm_: Aren't most of those bad forks actually diff specs?
  1090. # [21:36] <wilhelm_> jgraham: Yes.
  1091. # [21:36] <jgraham> It is at least unclear if that counts
  1092. # [21:36] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it would significantly raise the barrier to creating a fork, but it wouldn't prevent it altogether. someone could always just start from scratch like we did.
  1093. # [21:36] <wilhelm_> I'm in favour of a permissive license, but I disagree with anyone saying forks are good. (c:
  1094. # [21:36] <jgraham> Especially if they take advantage of Modularization which positively encourages forking
  1095. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but the amount of work you'd have to waste to replicate HTML5 would be ridiculous.
  1096. # [21:37] <Hixie> AryehGregor: clearly, that's why it should be allowed
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  1098. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> That doesn't answer the original question.
  1099. # [21:37] <Hixie> jgraham: good point
  1100. # [21:37] <Hixie> jgraham: what's with that!
  1101. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> You just said that "none of the arguments in favour of disallowing forking would actually prevent the problems they portend", but they'd actually do a lot to make serious forks harder.
  1102. # [21:37] <jgraham> Hixie: I don't know. The W3C policy seems to be very inconsistent
  1103. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Not ones that just subsetted or added a handful of features, but they'd kill rewrites.
  1104. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> jgraham, didn't you get the memo? Proprietary features count as standard if they have a colon in them.
  1105. # [21:38] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I don't even know that you need a colon in this case
  1106. # [21:38] <jgraham> Maybe you do
  1107. # [21:39] <jgraham> But really it makes no difference to implementors
  1108. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> I assume so. After all, otherwise the XHTML people would have had to not taken an opportunity to use namespaces, and I find that implausible.
  1109. # [21:39] <jgraham> Yes, that seems like a reasonable argument
  1110. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I see no strong arguments in favor of allowing forking at this point other than "We don't trust the W3C to do the right thing", and/or "The only ones who would bother really forking HTML5 instead of just doing a diff spec are implementers, and implementers are right by definition."
  1111. # [21:41] <jgraham> Who said that implementors are right by definition?
  1112. # [21:42] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) ("Nice Scotty, now beam my clothes up too!")
  1113. # [21:42] <jgraham> One can be quite wrong
  1114. # [21:42] <jgraham> and be an implementor
  1115. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Well, a standard that implementers don't implement is kind of useless.
  1116. # [21:42] <jgraham> e.g. one could add an <xml> element for xml data islands
  1117. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> So as far as standardization goes, implementers are collectively right by definition, if by "right" you mean "listening to them is the only sensible thing to do".
  1118. # [21:43] <jgraham> Yes, because in some market-dynamic way they reflect the will of the people
  1119. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> No, independent of that.
  1120. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Even if they're totally wrong, you can't force them to implement what's right.
  1121. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> You can only spec what's wrong.
  1122. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> It's also true that implementers are directly responsible to users, unlike anyone else in this whole picture, so they're the best ones to decide things.
  1123. # [21:44] <jgraham> No, but if they are totally wrong people won't upgrade to browsers with the new features
  1124. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Well, yes, if they're really extraordinarily wrong.
  1125. # [21:44] * Parts: cooto (~Adium@190.98.195.170)
  1126. # [21:44] <jgraham> Right
  1127. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Or if they're not so extraordinarily wrong, but only some are wrong and others are right.
  1128. # [21:45] <jgraham> There's only so far off the rails an implementor can go
  1129. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> Well, the same is true for a standards body.
  1130. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> If they get too impractical, no one will follow the standards.
  1131. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> But that's an extremely weak safeguard.
  1132. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> It only kicks in at ridiculous levels of fail.
  1133. # [21:46] <wilhelm_> It's not much of a standard if noone follows it, is it? (c:
  1134. # [21:46] <jgraham> Yeah, but if the standard is proprietary and a huge amount of work to replicate it is hard to route around a rouge standards body
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  1136. # [21:46] <jgraham> wilhelm_: Don't tell the IETF that </rimshot>
  1137. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Likewise, if you have enough of a browser monoculture it can be hard to route around the browser even if it's terrible.
  1138. # [21:47] <jgraham> Indeed. Browser monoculture is bad
  1139. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Eventually you will, in either case.
  1140. # [21:47] * Joins: lumely (~lumely@dhcp2-228.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp)
  1141. # [21:47] <wilhelm_> jgraham: :P
  1142. # [21:48] <jgraham> Happily these days we don't have a browser monoculture
  1143. # [21:48] <jgraham> To be fair we also don't have a HTML5 spec monoculture
  1144. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> We have multiple independent interoperable specifications of HTML5?
  1145. # [21:49] <jgraham> Huh?
  1146. # [21:49] <jgraham> We have the spec under multiple licenses managed by multiple bodies
  1147. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> We only have one HTML5 spec, basically. It may come in several flavors, but it's basically one spec.
  1148. # [21:49] <jgraham> If one goes insane we can use the other one
  1149. # [21:50] <jgraham> I'm not saying that having differences is good
  1150. # [21:50] <jgraham> It's not
  1151. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> Well, so that's like saying we don't have a WebKit monoculture in mobile because the WebKit forks are under multiple licenses managed by multiple bodies.
  1152. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> It's still WebKit.
  1153. # [21:50] <jgraham> This is a critical difference between specs and implementations I think
  1154. # [21:51] <jgraham> Although one can argue that a WebKit monoculture is better than an IE monoculture for this reason
  1155. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> Or worse, because at least IE6 is a consistent target . . .
  1156. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> (but maybe that makes it better, not worse)
  1157. # [21:51] <Hixie> AryehGregor: arguments in favour of allowing forking: it motivates the w3c not to screw up again, it allows easier resolution of the situation if they do screw up again.
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  1159. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> (because it gives more room for competition)
  1160. # [21:52] <jgraham> Flash is a consistent target
  1161. # [21:52] <jgraham> I'm not sure it's also good
  1162. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> Hixie, but at the same time also allows easier harmful forking, and it's non-obvious that that's a lesser problem.
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  1164. # [21:53] <Hixie> AryehGregor: can you describe a scenario where there is harmful forking?
  1165. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> You'd have to argue either that harmful forks from a good spec are less of a problem than a single bad spec, or that license restrictions somehow disproportionately affect good forks.
  1166. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Hixie, WML was being discussed here a little while ago.
  1167. # [21:54] <jgraham> I am personally of the opinion that the people who want to change the spec in a bad way and will be deterred by the license will also be open to reasonable arguments about why it is bad
  1168. # [21:54] <Hixie> WML was written from scratch. No copyright can stop that.
  1169. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> HTML5 was also written from scratch.
  1170. # [21:54] <Hixie> indeed.
  1171. # [21:54] <wilhelm_> It's still a fork of the Web, although not of the specification text.
  1172. # [21:54] <jgraham> People who won't listen to reasonable arguments won't be deterred by the license
  1173. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> But that's because HTML 4 and earlier were very short standards and easy to rewrite from scratch.
  1174. # [21:55] <Hixie> so?
  1175. # [21:55] <Hixie> forks of the HTML standard now are possible regardless of the W3C license
  1176. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Well, I guess WML would have been rewritten largely from scratch regardless, since the point was to be stripped-down.
  1177. # [21:55] <Hixie> WML wasn't stripped down really, it was a new language altogether.
  1178. # [21:55] <jgraham> wilhelm_: Since we can't stop people forking the web through any license text it seems relevant to note that a strict licence would have no effect vas a liberal one
  1179. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Its goal was to be stripped-down compared to HTML.
  1180. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> jgraham, that's not an argument either way, though.
  1181. # [21:56] <Hixie> AryehGregor: any other examples (even theoretical) of a bad fork?
  1182. # [21:56] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It's an argument that WML isn't a valid reason to have a less permissive license
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  1184. # [21:56] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i'm having trouble understanding how a copyright could prevent it, that's why i'm asking for examples
  1185. # [21:56] * jgraham wonders if people consider ePub good or bad
  1186. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I'm not familiar with the history here.
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  1188. # [21:57] <wilhelm_> jgraham: I agree. I'm in favour of a permissive license, with a big sticker that says “Forks are bad. Really. Don't go there.”.
  1189. # [21:57] <Hixie> ePub, whether good or bad, happened again regardless of whether we allow forking or not
  1190. # [21:57] <wilhelm_> That includes previously W3C-approved forks.
  1191. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> jgraham, it's an argument that nothing is a valid reason to have a more or less permissive license, so we should stop wasting our time arguing about it.
  1192. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> Which is a fair point of view, but doesn't favor either side.
  1193. # [21:57] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Only if you ignore the arguments unrelated to extant forks
  1194. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> jgraham, how does that follow?
  1195. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Hixie, so are you suggesting that bad forks would be disproportionately unlikely to actually want to use the existing specification text, or something like that?
  1196. # [21:59] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I am saying that the ability to create WML is unaffected by the license. Nevertheless the knowledge that a specification can be forked if it diverges from what the community wants provides a useful measure of oversight
  1197. # [21:59] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i am arguing that bad forks have happened and there's no reason to believe they'll happen more if we change the license
  1198. # [21:59] <Hixie> AryehGregor: but that it is invaluable to have the _ability_ to fork in case the w3c screw up again.
  1199. # [22:00] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the w3c should be the place people want to write specs not because they have a legal position of power, but because they are the best place to write specs.
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  1201. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> Hixie, but if you say changing the license would increase the ability to fork or threat of forking, surely it would also increase the incidence of forks?
  1202. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> One has to go with the other, surely.
  1203. # [22:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: why?
  1204. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  1205. # [22:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: is there any evidence that people have avoided "harmful" forks because of the license?
  1206. # [22:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: or any evidence that since the whatwg has started, the number of "harmful" forks has increased?
  1207. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> The license was much less relevant pre-HTML5 because it was relatively easy to rewrite from scratch, so that's not an argument either way.
  1208. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Now that's a good point.
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  1210. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> HTML5 has been permissively licensed since 2004, and we've seen no harmful forks that use much of its license text.
  1211. # [22:02] <Hixie> it would be my contention that the people who make harmful forks don't care about the parts of the spec that make it hard to fork without a liberal license
  1212. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> Right, that's what I was asking.
  1213. # [22:02] <Hixie> the detailed content in teh spec is only useful for those who want interoperability
  1214. # [22:02] <wilhelm_> AryehGregor: Depends on what other measures you take. The W3C can, say, stop endorsing forks. It can talk to those who have started forking elsewhere and ask them nicely to stop, and see if their problems can be solved within the existing specs.
  1215. # [22:02] <Hixie> which by definition one does not need if one is forking harmfully
  1216. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> Whether you thought good forks were disproportionately harmed by an anti-forking license.
  1217. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Okay, let me start on that rewrite again.
  1218. # [22:03] <Hixie> i think forks that want to preserve compatibility with the work we're doing now are disproportionally affected by the license, yes.
  1219. # [22:03] <jgraham> wilhelm_: FWIW I would very much like like W3C to do that
  1220. # [22:03] <Hixie> or maybe another way to put it is that forks are affected by the license in proportion to how compatible they want to be with what they are forking from
  1221. # [22:04] <jgraham> ePub 3 doesn't seem to have any normative UA conformance changes
  1222. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> What does it do, then?
  1223. # [22:05] <wilhelm_> jgraham: Yes, that could make a much greater impact than choosing one license over another.
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  1226. # [22:05] <jgraham> wilhelm_: I wonder why we are having this pointless series of votes than rather than doing stuff
  1227. # [22:05] <jgraham> then
  1228. # [22:06] <wilhelm_> Bikesheds are easy. Work is hard and expensive.
  1229. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> ISO HTML doesn't allow client-side scripting?
  1230. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Did anyone actually ever use it.
  1231. # [22:07] <wilhelm_> Telling people they are wrong on the Internet may even be entertaining.
  1232. # [22:08] <mpilgrim> so when will we get RDFa5 that matches facebook's processing requirements?
  1233. # [22:08] * jgraham hasn't really found much to hate about ePub 3 yet
  1234. # [22:08] <jgraham> mpilgrim: When hell freezes over?
  1235. # [22:09] <jgraham> I suppose I should send the email suggesting to the RDFa people that they cut out 2/4 ways of writing values allowed in RDFa
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  1237. # [22:09] <jgraham> So that they can tell me "no"
  1238. # [22:10] <jgraham> (but there do seem to be 4 mutually redundant ways of doing exactly the same thing)
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  1240. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Okay, so what's HTML 4.1, exactly?
  1241. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> I can't figure out.
  1242. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Oh, an a11y fork?
  1243. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> Wait, do some of the HTML 4.1 supporters also oppose forking licenses?
  1244. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> Steve Faulkner is listed as a supporter here: http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/Mission_Statement
  1245. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> As is John Foliot. Both said that cannot live with CC0/MIT, and support anti-forking licenses.
  1246. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> . . .
  1247. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> Hey, Philip Taylor is an HTML 4.1 supporter.
  1248. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> Philip`, so what's it about, exactly?
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  1250. # [22:21] <Hixie> different philip taylor
  1251. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  1252. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> That's horribly confusing.
  1253. # [22:21] <Hixie> he's no longer in the wg
  1254. # [22:21] <Hixie> it was far more confusing when he was
  1255. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> So Philip` is Philip Taylor, and that one's Philip TAYLOR?
  1256. # [22:21] <Hixie> yes
  1257. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Kind of like Mike(tm) Smith?
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  1259. # [22:23] <Philip`> Sometimes he's just called Philip Taylor
  1260. # [22:23] <Philip`> Usually it should be obvious which is which by the context :-)
  1261. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Now that I know there's two of you, it's pretty obvious, yeah. :)
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  1263. # [22:25] <Philip`> I don't understand the confusion - it's always been perfectly clear to me
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  1302. # [23:29] <Hixie> every browser except IE uses the last meta refresh. IE uses the first one.
  1303. # [23:29] <Hixie> weird.
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  1313. # [23:40] <jgraham> Oh. ePub has badness hidden behind :s
  1314. # [23:40] <jgraham> It seems to require XML Events support
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  1317. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> Okay, so now my response for the licensing survey is a bit short of 2000 words. Review appreciated: http://pastebin.com/PA7dZ2d1
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  1319. # [23:47] * AryehGregor is busy reviewing it right now himself, too
  1320. # [23:47] <karlcow> hmmmm the lines 27 and 29 make me uncomfortable.
  1321. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> Which parts, and why?
  1322. # [23:49] <karlcow> difficult to explain, it might take a few lines :) let me try
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  1324. # [23:51] <karlcow> "W3C has failed very, very badly at its job" The W3C organization has followed the opinion of the W3C members who collectively, genuinely, decided to adopt XML as the future of the Web. The decision was not really made in 2004 but before that.
  1325. # [23:51] <AryehGregor> Sure. That doesn't contradict what I said.
  1326. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> It just explains the nature of and reasons for the failure.
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  1328. # [23:53] <karlcow> the really important workshop is not the one in 2004
  1329. # [23:54] <karlcow> the one in 2004 for me is the expression of the failures of communications and understandings, not a failure of a bad job.
  1330. # [23:54] <karlcow> It's the abandon of negotiation from all parts participating
  1331. # [23:54] <karlcow> no winners, only losers on every side
  1332. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> The job of a standards body is to be a place where people want to develop standards.
  1333. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> If, for any reason, groups that the standards body wants to attract decide to go someplace else, that's a failure of the standards body.
  1334. # [23:56] <karlcow> It's a failure of the community as large
  1335. # [23:56] <karlcow> the important workshop is here http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/
  1336. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> The real failure was not when the W3C decided to pursue XML. That turned out to be wrong, but there was reason to believe it was right at the time.
  1337. # [23:57] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/HTML-Future-minutes.html (Members only)
  1338. # [23:57] <karlcow> AryehGregor: exactly. that's the nuance which is missing.
  1339. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> The real failure was when the browsers said "This isn't working for us and we need to support legacy content better", and the W3C refused to let them.
  1340. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> That was in 2004.
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  1342. # [23:57] <jgraham> karlcow: I think the essential point is that whatever W3C was doing between it stopping work on HTML4 and starting work on HTML5, it wasn't "leading the web to its full potential" because the technology that it developed has been abandonded and the technology that is being used on the web was developed by an outside body
  1343. # [23:57] <karlcow> It's why the license issue is a red herring
  1344. # [23:57] <karlcow> because it is not a license issue
  1345. # [23:58] <jgraham> Regardless of the reasons for the failure, the W3C failed by its own terms
  1346. # [23:58] <karlcow> but a community issue on the way we accommodate a change of pace, way, direction and sometimes parallel works
  1347. # [23:59] <jgraham> The license seems like a big part of how we accomodate parallel works
  1348. # [23:59] <karlcow> nope
  1349. # [23:59] <jgraham> and indeed changes of pace way and direction
  1350. # [23:59] <karlcow> the license is how we dissolve a community creating a parallel work. It doesn't have the same constraints in terms of Contrat Social.
  1351. # Session Close: Thu May 05 00:00:00 2011

The end :)