/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-05 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu May 05 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <jgraham> Hmm?
4. # [00:00] <karlcow> As in "Do we solve it together?" or "Go elsewhere do your own thing". I prefer the 1st option even if it's often more painful and longer.
5. # [00:01] <karlcow> and because of the involvement of many people inside W3C, the work on html has finally been restarted.
6. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> The work on HTML was restarted by Apple, Mozilla, and Opera in the WHATWG. Not by anyone at the W3C.
7. # [00:02] <Hixie> not for lack of trying to get the w3c to restart it
8. # [00:02] <karlcow> Basically a fork is a too easy answer for a "social" issue.
9. # [00:02] <jgraham> I prefer the first option too. But the possibility of doing the second is critical
10. # [00:02] <jgraham> karlcow: That's not really how I see this in practice
11. # [00:02] <jgraham> People don't just go "oh well I'm forking"
12. # [00:02] <jgraham> Because maintaining a fork is hard
13. # [00:03] <jgraham> It's almost always better to solve the problem
14. # [00:03] <jgraham> together
15. # [00:03] <jgraham> But sometimes there are irreconcilable differences
16. # [00:03] <karlcow> well if the cost of forking is super easy and really light, the fork will happen more often, and then you come into the social issue. No big will to maintain the value of the community
17. # [00:04] <jgraham> karlcow: So why don't people create lots of forks of the WHATWG copy of HTML5?
18. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> Forking a standard the size of HTML5 will never be anything but very hard.
19. # [00:04] <karlcow> AryehGregor: I was working at W3C during that time, I have a different view on the issue ;)
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21. # [00:04] <jgraham> Or indeed of the huge numbers of open source projects
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23. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> People do create lots of forks of some open-source projects.
24. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> The Linux kernel has about seventy bajillion forks.
25. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Many of which don't actually obey the license terms.
26. # [00:05] <karlcow> jgraham: because there is little conflicts between the main proponents right now
27. # [00:05] <jgraham> When there is a fork in a big open source project it almost always results in one or the other forks dying, or them coexisting for a while and remerging
28. # [00:05] <wilhelm_> If a license is all that prevents a viable fork, the process and the standards body in question has already failed.
29. # [00:06] <karlcow> wilhelm_: It's exactly why I think the license is not the right issue
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31. # [00:06] <wilhelm_> karlcow: Then we are in agreement on that point. (c:
32. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> jgraham, well, if the fork poses itself as a competitor, yes. Not if it's meant for internal use or such.
33. # [00:06] <jgraham> AryehGregor: The kernel is quite unusual I think. Things like emacs and XFree86 have had notable forks that followed the pattern I described
34. # [00:06] <karlcow> I would prefer to modify the way the W3C works in terms of process and decisions to allow such a thing inside the organization.
35. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> The kernel has never had any fork that actually intended to replace mainline, I don't think.
36. # [00:07] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Right
37. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Just lots of forks that add specific features or whatnot, and maybe sync up with mainline occasionally.
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39. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> BSD has had forks that stayed permanently separate.
40. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> But those are definitely the exception, not the rule.
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42. # [00:12] <karlcow> The HTML WG participants portrait was quite different more than 10 years ago. If you look at the 1998 workshop participants, there were a lot more content and authoring tools organization than now.
43. # [00:14] <karlcow> For me the biggest issue is often are the implementers in the WG (any WGs), if not why, how do we detect that, how do we change that? This is the more interesting question which would really solve a lot of issues
44. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> As long as the W3C can keep the implementers happy enough to stay their of their own free will, it doesn't have to worry about licensing.
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46. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> A license that allows forks is necessary in case implementers find the W3C to no longer be an acceptable place to develop HTML5, and are not able to resolve their issues by discussion.
47. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> As happened in 2004, and could happen again.
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49. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> There are more than a few individual implementers who participate in the WHATWG and mostly ignore the HTMLWG as it stands, because they view the WHATWG as a better place to work. Otherwise the WHATWG would have been shut down.
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51. # [00:18] <karlcow> AryehGregor: That's why a more permissive license doesn't solve anything with the risk of higher costs such as we had to already bear with for the last 7 years
52. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> HTML 4.01 wasn't worth forking, so license didn't matter in 2004. It matters with a spec as big as HTML5.
53. # [00:19] <Hixie> it's a motivator for the w3c
54. # [00:20] <karlcow> That's another issue ;) I do not think HTML5 is right in its current form ;)
55. # [00:20] <karlcow> It should not be that big
56. # [00:20] <karlcow> :) it should be separate documents
57. # [00:20] <karlcow> but that's yet as I said a complete different issue
58. # [00:20] <zewt-> (your :) key appears stuck)
59. # [00:21] <jgraham> karlcow: The number of documents is irrelevant
60. # [00:21] <jgraham> The platform is as big as it is
61. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> The form isn't nearly as important as the substance.
62. # [00:21] <Hixie> it should be fewer documents, imho, it would be far easier to maintain
63. # [00:21] <jacobolus> karlcow: a fork is just the BATNA
64. # [00:21] <karlcow> zewt-: because it is exactly the translation of my face. I'm very rarely aggressive
65. # [00:21] <Hixie> and to keep track of what was considered part of teh platform
66. # [00:22] <Hixie> but that's just my opinion, i don't mind how many documents we generate :-)
67. # [00:22] <karlcow> Hixie: I know your position on it :)
68. # [00:22] <jgraham> The fact that I have to look for some bits in a spec called "HTML5" and some in a spec called "device Orientation" and some in a spec called "CSS Backgrounds and Borders" is almost irrelevant to me
69. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Okay, new version: http://pastebin.com/BU6ghf5K
70. # [00:23] <jgraham> Except that it is a bit harder to know where to find stuff when you don't know where to look
71. # [00:23] <karlcow> jgraham: it's why I have never read War and Peace ;)
72. # [00:24] <jacobolus> you should. it's fantastic.
73. # [00:24] <jacobolus> :)
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75. # [00:24] * jgraham sighs as another Opera employee falls into the TR/ trap :(
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77. # [00:25] <karlcow> jacobolus: puts it into small orthogonal chapters <kidding/>
78. # [00:25] <jacobolus> karlcow: it's kind of tolstoy's whole theory of history that you can't do that :)
79. # [00:26] <karlcow> heh
80. # [00:27] <karlcow> jgraham: TR/ has its own issues which are not solved by one big document either.
81. # [00:27] <jgraham> I prefer to think of HTML 5 as "Rememberance of Things Past"
82. # [00:27] <jgraham> Not that I have read that
83. # [00:28] <jgraham> karlcow: I'm not saying that TR/ is affected by the big/small document thing. TR belies a broken model of how specs work
84. # [00:28] <jacobolus> AryehGregor: I agree that the "w3c has failed very very badly" bit could be rephrased to clarify your intent
85. # [00:28] <karlcow> À la recherche du temps perdu - Proust. Exactly ;)
86. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> jgraham, like how?
87. # [00:29] <jacobolus> AryehGregor: I would put "within recent memory" before "failed badly"
88. # [00:29] <jacobolus> also, skip the "very, very"; those don't really add much
89. # [00:29] * AryehGregor confused jacobolus with jgraham
90. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> So "Unfortuately, such forks are not only theoretical, because in recent memory, the W3C has failed badly at its job."?
91. # [00:30] <jacobolus> something like that
92. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> Probably I could try to rewrite that part to be more convincing to W3C people, but I doubt my basic argument will ever be convincing to them, because they think the WHATWG fork was bad.
93. # [00:32] <jacobolus> maybe something like "The need for such forks is more than a theoretical concern: within recent memory the W3C process broke down entirely...."
94. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> What does that really change?
95. # [00:33] <karlcow> "The HTML interested parties were not participating anymore in the old W3C HTML WG creating a structural fork on the technology."
96. # [00:33] <jacobolus> AryehGregor: the current one makes it sound like the W3C is still failing
97. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Surely "has failed" is clearly past?
98. # [00:34] <jacobolus> "X has failed" implies (at least possibly implies) an ongoing failure
99. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> I guess so.
100. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> Let me rephrase.
101. # [00:35] <jacobolus> which is why I think if you put "within recent memory" before it's clearer
102. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> karlcow, the W3C as an organization failed badly by being unwilling to accommodate the needs of its most key members. If you're not willing to accept that, then you're never going to like what I write.
103. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> Blaming the failure on the members or whatever misses the point.
104. # [00:35] <karlcow> "The browser vendors not finding a place to continue working on HTML had unfortunately to restart the work outside of W3C"
105. # [00:35] <Hixie> we did find a place
106. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> "Unfortuately, such forks are not only theoretical, because the W3C did fail badly at its job in recent memory."
107. # [00:35] <Hixie> unfortunately the place turned us away :-(
108. # [00:35] <karlcow> AryehGregor: "the needs of its most key members"
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110. # [00:36] <karlcow> history rewriting and focussing on one part of the Web :)
111. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> karlcow, standards are worthless unless they're implemented. Implementers are the only essential members of a standards body.
112. # [00:36] <Hixie> (actually we found two places, an incubator group and the htmlwg. both refused us.)
113. # [00:36] <jacobolus> AryehGregor: that's better
114. # [00:36] <karlcow> I know that browser vendors are important and have become more important in the last 10 years but tsss tsss
115. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> If you lose non-implementers, the quality of your standards might suffer. If you lose the implementers, your standards are worthless.
116. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> The entire point of a standard is to be implemented.
117. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Okay, anyone have other comments? Otherwise I'll submit it shortly.
118. # [00:37] <karlcow> AryehGregor: agreed with losing implementers - this is the issue to solve
119. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> And the W3C failed at it in 2004. Right?
120. # [00:38] <jacobolus> AryehGregor: the argument that governments couldn't create forks of HTML if it had a license that forbid forking seems almost too laughable to answer
121. # [00:38] <karlcow> before that
122. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> jacobolus, yeah, I know.
123. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> karlcow, they didn't leave until 2004.
124. # [00:38] <karlcow> yes they did
125. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> jacobolus, the patent argument is also crazy.
126. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> karlcow, when was this?
127. # [00:39] <jacobolus> yes
128. # [00:39] <jacobolus> I don't know if including those answers improves your essay
129. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Maybe not.
130. # [00:39] <karlcow> they stop participating to the HTML WG before 2004. You could read the *valid* frustration of people on www-html mailing list
131. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> I'll remove those two paragraphs.
132. # [00:40] <karlcow> erratas not being fixed, issue trackers not clear, comments not taken into accounts
133. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> Shorter is better.
134. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> karlcow, okay, fine. They didn't start working elsewhere until 2004, though.
135. # [00:41] <karlcow> it's why I said structural fork before. They did work elsewhere individually by working in the bug trackers and slowly not participating to a deaf htmlwg
136. # [00:41] <jacobolus> AryehGregor: in general, I think it's decently argued
137. # [00:41] <karlcow> respective vendor bug trackers
138. # [00:42] <Hixie> AryehGregor: 2003 actually
139. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> Really?
140. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> The spec seems to say 2004, in the history section.
141. # [00:43] <Hixie> AryehGregor: what happened is that the browser vendors slowly dropped away until xforms came up for PR vote in 2003, at which point the frustration was enough that opera/mozilla/opera/and a few others asked for a rethink of the strategy
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144. # [00:43] <Hixie> some of us showed what could be done by writing "xforms basic", an early wf2 prototype spec
145. # [00:44] <Hixie> the w3c responded by having a workshop in 2004 at which the various points of view were put forward
146. # [00:44] <Hixie> then when that concluded with the creation of a doomed wg on compound documents and nothing for html, we announced the whatwg list and moved xforms basic to the whatwg site
147. # [00:44] <Hixie> i was blogging a lot back then, you can see some of the history in my blog posts from 2003/2004
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149. # [00:45] <Hixie> last copy of xforms basic was http://www.hixie.ch/specs/html/forms/xforms-basic-1
150. # [00:45] <Hixie> note how it was proposed as an xhtml m12n module :-)
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152. # [00:46] <Hixie> wow, some parts of that have lasted all the way to the current spec
153. # [00:46] <karlcow> hmmm let's call this crash, the pink crash. That was surprising. Third crash today 2 with grayish screens and one with pink screen
154. # [00:46] <Hixie> check out the table in appendix B
155. # [00:46] <Hixie> that became the table in the <input> element section
156. # [00:46] <Hixie> same styles and everything
157. # [00:48] <Hixie> anyway, that's dated dec 2003
158. # [00:48] <Hixie> ooh, apparently wa1 predates the whatwg too: http://www.hixie.ch/specs/html/apps/web-apps-1
159. # [00:49] <karlcow> yup
160. # [00:49] <Hixie> though almost everything there then became part of web controls 1.0 which then died
161. # [00:49] * Hixie leaves memory lane and gets back to work :-)
162. # [00:51] <karlcow> I guess an archivist work could be done by going through the past HTML WG minutes and you could decipher who, when people participated. Mailing lists too.
163. # [00:52] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/Archives (Member only)
164. # [00:53] <Hixie> sadly that will all be lost to archeologists since it's all member-only
165. # [00:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
166. # [00:53] <karlcow> Hixie, tss tss
167. # [00:54] <karlcow> Most of the libraries have old books not accessible. Archivists can still work :)
168. # [00:54] <Hixie> tss tss?
169. # [00:54] <Hixie> ?
170. # [00:54] <jamesr> maybe in the future everyone will be a w3 member and have access
171. # [00:55] <karlcow> jamesr: that's one possibility. :)
172. # [00:55] <Hixie> even members don't have access to the team lists :-)
173. # [00:56] <karlcow> As I do not have access to your private emails :) or anyone has access to the internal mails of any organizations.
174. # [01:00] <Hixie> there's a moral difference between an organisation that has paying members and decides things for those members that then affect the entire world, and most other kinds of organisations
175. # [01:00] <Hixie> certainly there will always be a need for private lists
176. # [01:01] <Hixie> but e.g. the sub total of private e-mails in the whatwg in the past two or so years is literally zero, and i'm sure one couldn't say the same for the w3c.
177. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> The WHATWG is vastly smaller.
178. # [01:01] <karlcow> Hixie: comparing orange and tomatoes
179. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> I don't think it's a moral issue, just an issue of effectiveness.
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181. # [01:02] <Hixie> AryehGregor: not that smaller. it has 1700 subscribers and a dozen "staff"-equivalent.
182. # [01:02] <karlcow> transparency != trust
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184. # [01:02] <Hixie> karlcow: not sure the relevance of oranges, tomatoes, transparency, or trust here. i was just talking about archeologists of the future.
185. # [01:03] <AryehGregor> Hixie, W3C lists combined surely have vastly more than 1700 subscribers. W3C staff and WHATWG steering committee are not at all comparable, W3C staff actually devote a significant fraction of their time to working at the W3C.
186. # [01:04] <karlcow> archeologists of the future might have access to it. I don't know. I just know that the lists are archived.
187. # [01:05] * karlcow doesn't have a crystal ball
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189. # [01:07] * karlcow found "voyager" again, the code name for the future of html4
190. # [01:08] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/WD-html-in-xml-19981205/
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193. # [01:15] <AryehGregor> Okay, answer submitted. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/html5-license-poll-v3/results
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196. # [01:17] <Hixie> man, you have got to love the vote of confidence that is "[a non-free license] is necessary to maintain W3C as a trusted and reputable source of definitive technical specifications"
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218. # [02:00] <Yuhong> "then when that concluded with the creation of a doomed wg on compound documents and nothing for html, we announced the whatwg list and moved xforms basic to the whatwg site "
219. # [02:01] <Yuhong> Personally what I would have asked is an XHTML2 spec that is tag level compatible with XHTML1 (and HTML4 via Appendix C)
220. # [02:03] <Yuhong> Of course, it is too late anyway.
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240. # [03:02] <erlehmann> edbrowse is the standard edi^W browser
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245. # [03:17] <erlehmann> oh, i tried it
246. # [03:17] <erlehmann> edbrowse *is* indeed interesting
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266. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm writing <select required> checking for the validator and I the spec seems quite clear but I want to doublecheck
267. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> so, question:
268. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> the following should be valid, right?
269. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> <select required>
270. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> <option></option>
271. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> </select>
272. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> and the following should not be?
273. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> <select required>
274. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> <option value=1>foo</option>
275. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> </select>
276. # [04:37] <Hixie> i assume we're ignoring the <option> here, right? attribute-wise?
277. # [04:37] <Hixie> or should i check the option requirements too
278. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> there are not requirements on the option in that case, as far as I can see
279. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> so, no, anyway, you don't need to check the option requirements for that first case
280. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> I just meant is is valid as far as the select goes
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282. # [04:38] <Hixie> in the first case, the option has to have a value="" if its contents aren't "".
283. # [04:39] <Hixie> the second one is invalid, indeed
284. # [04:39] <Hixie> so yes, valid and not valid
285. # [04:40] <Hixie> the first might want to emit a warning that the author probably forgot to give the text of the placeholder label option
286. # [04:40] <Hixie> dunno how much linting you're doing
287. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> OK
288. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> hmm
289. # [04:41] <MikeSmith> but now I do think I'm misunderstanding something
290. # [04:41] <MikeSmith> which ish, how do you give the text of the placeholder label option
291. # [04:41] * MikeSmith looks back at the spec
292. # [04:41] <Hixie> in the label="" or textContent of the <option>
293. # [04:42] <MikeSmith> ok
294. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> but the spec says, "if the value of the first option element in the select element's list of options (if any) is the empty string, and that option element's parent node is the select element (and not an optgroup element), then that option is the select element's placeholder label option."
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296. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> should that be "is *not* the empty string"?
297. # [04:44] <Hixie> sorry afk brb
298. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> ok
299. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie: (when you get back), so it seems like maybe it should say that the value attribute is empty (or not specified), but the option must have textContent
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304. # [04:55] <MikeSmith> because, unless I'm missing something, I don't see how the option element can serve as an actual placeholder label option if the "value of the option element" (= "the value of the value attribute, if there is one, or the textContent of the element, if there isn't") has to be the empty string
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306. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> in other words, the current spec text seems to require the following to be reported as invalid
307. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> <select required>
308. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> <option>Choose one of the following</option>
309. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> <option value=1>foo</option>
310. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> <option value=2>bar</option>
311. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> </select>
312. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> because it must have a placeholder label option, but the value of the first option element is not the empty string, so it does not have a placeholder label option
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316. # [05:12] <Hixie> MikeSmith: back
317. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> hey
318. # [05:13] <Hixie> MikeSmith: right, if you have required in that case you also have to have <option value="">label</option>
319. # [05:13] <Hixie> required="", i mean
320. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> ok
321. # [05:13] <Hixie> because otherwise there's no point having required="" -- it'd be required anyway
322. # [05:13] <Hixie> you can't _not_ give a value in that case
323. # [05:13] <Hixie> so marking it required="" is worthless
324. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> right, but that's not what the spec seems to say
325. # [05:14] <Hixie> oh?
326. # [05:14] * Hixie looks
327. # [05:14] <Hixie> in that case, it doesn't have a placeholder label option, and it must have a placeholder label option, right?
328. # [05:15] <Hixie> it doesn't have one because the value of the first option is "1", so the first option is not a placeholder label option
329. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> oh
330. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> but the first option has no value attribute…
331. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> the value of the second option is 1
332. # [05:16] <Hixie> oh
333. # [05:16] <Hixie> sorry
334. # [05:16] <Hixie> i mean the value of the first option is "Choose one of the following"
335. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> yeah
336. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> OK
337. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> I think I see what the purpose of this is now
338. # [05:17] <Hixie> you probably want the validator to notice when the first one have a value="non-empty" and give a distinct error than the case where it is simply missing a value="" (but has textContent, as opposed to <option label="choose one of the following">, which would be fine)
339. # [05:17] <Hixie> because the error message would be confusing otherwise
340. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> OK
341. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> so sorry if I'm being daft here, but if the following is not OK, what should it be changed to?
342. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> <select required>
343. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> <option></option>
344. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> <option value=1>foo</option>
345. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> <option value=2>bar</option>
346. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> </select>
347. # [05:22] <Hixie> it's fine, from a validation point of view
348. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> OK, but what I'm getting at is, the spec currently says that for an option to be a placeholder label option, its "value" must be the empty string
349. # [05:23] <MikeSmith> where "value" is defined as "the value of the value attribute, if there is one, or the textContent of the element, if there isn't"
350. # [05:23] <Hixie> right
351. # [05:23] <Hixie> (hm, we should probably strip spaces before and after the textContent, for sanity, so that omitting the </option> in the case above doesn't matter, but that's another story)
352. # [05:24] <Hixie> (i'll file a bug)
353. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> so that would seem to mean that <option value="">label</option> cannot be a placeholder label option
354. # [05:24] <Hixie> sure it can
355. # [05:24] <Hixie> value="" is good
356. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> OK but the "value" of the option is non-empty
357. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> because it has textContent
358. # [05:24] <Hixie> the value is the value of the value attribute, if there is one
359. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> ah
360. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> yeah
361. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> thanks for your patience :)
362. # [05:25] <Hixie> no worries
363. # [05:26] <Hixie> this stuff is inane, and i make enough mistakes that half the time your questions are just pointing out mistakes i made :-)
364. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> heh
365. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> not sure that's true, but thanks for saying it :)
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369. # [05:32] <karlcow> I wish there was a way to do
370. # [05:32] <karlcow> X-viewport: content="width=device-width" in HTTP headers
371. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so why not have the spec say that for <select required>, its first option child must have a value="" attribute specified?
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373. # [05:35] <Hixie> MikeSmith: we could do that, but in the case of <option label=".."/> it's a bit ugly to require an otherwise redundant value="" as well
374. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> OK
375. # [05:36] <MikeSmith> I will implement it as currently specced so that we have something concrete to test with in the validator
376. # [05:36] <Hixie> cool
377. # [05:37] <Hixie> i just filed a bug about the definition of /option label/ that you might want to look at
378. # [05:37] <MikeSmith> but I should point out to you that as far as I can see, the spec currently doesn't say anything about the label attribute providing the text for the placeholder label option
379. # [05:37] <MikeSmith> OK, I'll look at that bug
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383. # [05:40] * Hixie looks
384. # [05:43] <Hixie> it doesn't say anything special about the placeholder label option vs other options as far as rendering goes
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411. # [07:29] <zcorpan> heh, EventSource.OPEN and EventSource.CLOSED are both 0 in chrome
412. # [07:29] <zcorpan> yay for constants
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419. # [07:48] <erlehmann> edbrowse -d0 >&2 |festival --tts
420. # [07:48] <erlehmann> funny :)
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424. # [08:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm back here now
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429. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie, hsivonen: fyi, I pushed my workspace implementation of <select required> checking to http://www.w3.org/html/check for testing
430. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: will send you the patch now
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432. # [08:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: if i ping you without actually asking something it's usually because i'm working on some bug that i think you have an opinion on, and if you're not around i'll just post my question to the bug :-)
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434. # [08:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: in this particular case, i think it was http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12100
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438. # [08:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: commented on the bug
439. # [08:34] <Hixie> awesome, thanks
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444. # [08:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I replied
445. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> thanks
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468. # [09:44] <hsivonen> I think http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6078&to=6079 didn't actually "clarify" things.
469. # [09:47] <Hixie> that's because you still think they mean "italics" and "bold"
470. # [09:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: we've always been at war with Eastasia
471. # [09:50] <Hixie> i do not claim that they did not once mean "italics" and "bold"
472. # [09:50] <Hixie> so i think that's an inappropriate attempt at dismissing my position using a platitude
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478. # [09:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: granted, I should have come up another redefinition-related quote that doesn't imply retroactive redefinition.
479. # [09:56] <Hixie> or you could use your own words :-)
480. # [09:57] <hsivonen> :-)
481. # [09:57] <Hixie> i'm updating the terms used in the stability boxes in the spec... any idea of a better term for "first draft", to mean the first attempt at specifying something?
482. # [09:57] <Hixie> "first attempt" was my other idea
483. # [09:57] <Hixie> but both kinda suck
484. # [09:57] <othermaciej> in Newspeak, <b> is defined to serve the needs of the people
485. # [09:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: "Don't use this yet LOL"
486. # [09:59] <zcorpan> Hixie: or follow the W3C naming and call it "Last attempt"
487. # [09:59] <othermaciej> "unstable"?
488. # [09:59] <othermaciej> "experimental"?
489. # [09:59] <othermaciej> (not sure if that matches the intent)
490. # [10:00] <Hixie> i'll try "Experimental draft" for now maybe
491. # [10:01] <Hixie> search for "== STATUS" in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status.js for the new list
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497. # [10:23] <jgraham> Aren't the real statuses "Unimplemeneted", "experimentally implemented", "Multiple interoperable implementations"
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499. # [10:25] <Hixie> "experimentally implemented" doesn't correspond to a state in the spec
500. # [10:25] <Hixie> and there are definitely more states than just "no" and "yes"
501. # [10:25] <Hixie> :-)
502. # [10:25] <jgraham> Yes it does
503. # [10:25] <jgraham> It corresponds to what W3C woudl call "Last Call"
504. # [10:26] <jgraham> i.e. if you don't like this comment soon before more people implement it
505. # [10:26] <Hixie> oh i thought you meant a feature implemented as an experiment before the spec is written
506. # [10:26] <Hixie> sorry
507. # [10:26] <jgraham> Ah
508. # [10:26] <Hixie> yeah, those are a subset of the states
509. # [10:26] <Hixie> see the script for the full list
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512. # [10:31] <jgraham> Hixie: The states there don't seem to be much like the ones I said at all
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515. # [10:33] <Hixie> jgraham: unimplemented = TBW, OCBE, FD, WD; implemented = LC, CR; multiple = REC
516. # [10:33] <jgraham> Also I agree with hsivonen about the interesting use of the word "clarify" to mean "make more unlike reality" in the <b> and <i> definitions
517. # [10:33] <Hixie> authoring conformance requirements aren't about past reality they're about future reality
518. # [10:33] <Hixie> they're about best practices, and what we can most highly recommend to authors
519. # [10:34] <Hixie> they're very much unlike implementation conformance criteria, in that respect
520. # [10:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: not entirely true in a world where people have legacy sites to work with
521. # [10:34] <Hixie> (which is why the decision to make <table> not entirely non-presentational in the w3c copy is just a bad decision)
522. # [10:34] <jgraham> Hixie: My point about the statuses, such as it was, was that statuses could be explicitly about implementations rather than having abstract states and having to tell people who they map onto reality
523. # [10:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: how not?
524. # [10:35] <Hixie> jgraham: we already have explicit implementation status information, so that would be redundant
525. # [10:35] <Hixie> the states are not abstract, they're descriptions of the quality of the text
526. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: if a validator whines too much about legacy content on points that take effort to fix but that have dubious payoff, the validator isn't really helping the author and the author might opt not to validate
527. # [10:36] <jgraham> Hixie: From the reader's point of view they're abstract
528. # [10:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: which would be bad, because the author would then also miss out on useful error messages
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530. # [10:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'll be immediately convinced of that argument's relevance to this particular problem as soon as you are able to determine whether <b> is being used for bold or for keywords.
531. # [10:36] <Hixie> programatically
532. # [10:36] <jgraham> About <b> and <i>: the glorious future where people never use them to mean bold or italic will likely never happen. Even if it did it wouldn't be a big win for anyone
533. # [10:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: when it comes to cases that _can_ be programmatically detected, i think we've done a good job of walking that line, though
534. # [10:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: how's that a prerequisite for my point?
535. # [10:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: either i misunderstood your point, or your point doesn't apply to a case where you wouldn't ever show an error message regardless of the definition we're talking about
536. # [10:38] <jgraham> The main bad effect is that people won't take the rest of the spec seriously
537. # [10:38] <jgraham> Not that they won't take validators seriously
538. # [10:38] <Hixie> jgraham: re the states being abstract, i don't really see how "this is brand new first-draft experimental text" vs "i think we are ready for implementations" is "abstract", but if it is, then i guess i think we need abstraction here.
539. # [10:39] <Hixie> if people are going to dismiss the entire spec just because <i> is defined in a media-independent way, then i think we have bigger problems.
540. # [10:39] <Hixie> like, why on earth isn't the rest of the spec useful enough that it overcomes this minor issue.
541. # [10:40] <jgraham> Hixie: The "How do I suggest a feature" FAQ suggests implementations may preceed spec text so the smooth transition implied by the current states doesn't man much
542. # [10:40] <jgraham> Not the whole rest of the spec
543. # [10:40] <jgraham> But the other semantic requirments
544. # [10:40] <jgraham> Including the ones that actually matter a bit
545. # [10:40] <jgraham> Like not using <table> for layout
546. # [10:41] <Hixie> i don't see how anything smooth is implied. certainly no smoothness was intended to be implied.
547. # [10:41] <Hixie> i think the w3c has done far more damage to the tables-for-layout issue than we could possibly do even if we defined <i> to mean "ice cream"
548. # [10:41] <jgraham> That is true
549. # [10:41] <jgraham> But it's only one example
550. # [10:42] <jgraham> and doesn't excuse us anyway
551. # [10:42] <Hixie> but i also think the people who are most likely to care about <table> being media-independent are the same people who are likely to appreciate <i> being media-independent
552. # [10:42] <Hixie> so i don't really buy the premise of your argument
553. # [10:43] <jgraham> Well I care about <table> but don't really care if people use <i> to mean "I want this text to be italic"
554. # [10:43] <jgraham> Because non-visual UAs have to deal with that anyway
555. # [10:43] <jgraham> and it seems to be way down the list of problems they have
556. # [10:43] <zcorpan> jgraham: do you care if people use <em> to mean "I want this text to be italic"?
557. # [10:44] <jgraham> zcorpan: I think that is a bigger problem
558. # [10:44] <jgraham> (and one that is encouraged by demonising <i>)
559. # [10:45] <Hixie> we don't demonise <i>, we give it what imho is a rather succint definition that maps surprisingly well to real good-practice usage (i.e. not pure styling where an entire section is italics, but more phrasing-like usage), in such a way that authors can continue to use it with no fear of media-dependence
560. # [10:46] <Hixie> personally i am quite happy with where we are with <i>, <b>, <small>, and even <u> which i have come to terms with
561. # [10:46] <Hixie> i don't really see what value we would have in introducing <font>-like definitions for any of them
562. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: are there Web authors other than you and fantasai who use <i> correctly as specced as a result of reading and understanding the spec? (as opposed to by accident)
563. # [10:47] <Hixie> no idea
564. # [10:47] <jgraham> I don't see that any UA can treat <i> as currently defined different to <span style="font-style:italic">
565. # [10:48] <Hixie> dunno how one would measure that
566. # [10:48] <jgraham> So whatever media independence we have would be equally true if we defined that as a synonym
567. # [10:49] <Hixie> same can be said of <em> and <cite>
568. # [10:49] <Hixie> so i dunno that that is relevant
569. # [10:49] <Hixie> anyway, i really should go to bed
570. # [10:49] <jgraham> Not really. I would expect an AT to read <em> in a difference voice, for example
571. # [10:49] <jgraham> I might be wrong in that expectation ofc
572. # [10:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: <em> different voice from <i>?
573. # [10:50] <jgraham> hsivonen: That depends how many people are using <i> to mean <em> I guess
574. # [10:50] <hsivonen> I'd expect the best AT user experience to come from rendering <em> and <i> the same way by default regardless of medium, because they are rendered the same way on the medium that authors test the most
575. # [10:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: of course, it should be possible to test and find out what implementations actually do!
576. # [10:51] <hsivonen> as opposed to theorizing about it
577. # [10:52] <jgraham> Indeed
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602. # [11:49] <hsivonen> I love how the HTML 4.01 spec italicizes "Standard Generalized Markup Language" not as <cite>, not as <i> but as <dfn>
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606. # [12:04] <hsivonen> Unicode srsly! Where's my RIGHTWARDS ARROW WITH CORNER UPWARDS?
607. # [12:07] <reggna> Hehe, all i find is RIGHTWARDS ARROW WITH TIP UPDARDS. :P
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609. # [12:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: from Steve on Twitter: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2008/02/screen-readers-lack-emphasis/
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612. # [12:08] <hsivonen> reggna: thanks!
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615. # [12:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: Interesting. It would be interesting to hear what changed in 3 years
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645. # [14:36] <othermaciej> VoiceOver doesn't report any bold or italic by default, and while it can be set to do so, Safari doesn't seem to respect that (I'll have to find out if this is a bug)
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647. # [14:39] <jgraham> "Any bold or italic" including <em> and <strong>?
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653. # [14:54] <othermaciej> well, since it doesn't work in Web content I can't test that
654. # [14:54] <othermaciej> oh, I see what you are asking
655. # [14:56] <othermaciej> it does not apply voice changes for em/strong
656. # [14:57] <othermaciej> for bold and italic in apps that support it, it just announces "bold" or "italic", it doesn't use a different voice
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815. # [20:51] <Hixie> "Adobe does not wish the specification to fork, since we believe that this would fragment the Web."
816. # [20:51] <Hixie> you really have to love the irony
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821. # [20:56] <othermaciej> I wonder if they have software that supports any of the existing HTML forks
822. # [20:56] <Hixie> i also like the implication that anyone actually wishes the specifications to fork
823. # [20:58] <Hixie> reminds me of the far more serious issue of abortion rights, where anti-reproductive-rights advocates argue that abortions should be illegal because "we don't want abortions", as if the pro-reproductive-rights advocates actually want to have abortions recreationally or something
824. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Well, in that case the anti-abortion people actually do tend to oppose abortions much more strongly than the pro-abortion rights people, in extreme cases considering abortion murder. That's the official Catholic position, right?
825. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> I don't think it's tenable to support any abortion rights at all if you think abortion is wrong *enough*, e.g., on the level of murder.
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827. # [21:00] <Philip`> What if you support murder?
828. # [21:00] <othermaciej> I wonder if this will end up the most-responded-to HTML WG survey ever
829. # [21:00] <othermaciej> I can't remember the previous record
830. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> We can always rely on Philip` to throw monkey wrenches from left field into seemingly sound logic.
831. # [21:00] <reggna> Pro murder but anti-abortion?
832. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, well, the large majority of surveys explicitly say not to answer if you're just repeating others' objections, while in this one many people voted without saying anything.
833. # [21:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah it's not a good analogy, it just reminded me of it
834. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> reggna, maybe you only think murder is okay if the victim has the opportunity to fight back.
835. # [21:01] <reggna> AryehGregor: Ah, that's true.
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837. # [21:01] <reggna> Got to love the fight!
838. # [21:01] <othermaciej> there are older surveys that were not objection polls in the style of the issue surveys
839. # [21:01] <Philip`> What about the "should we adopt the WHATWG's HTML5 spec or doom ourselves to irrelevance before even starting" survey from years ago?
840. # [21:01] <othermaciej> this may be the record for most answered: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/htmlbg/results
841. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Maybe I wasn't around for those.
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845. # [21:01] <Philip`> Yeah, that one
846. # [21:04] <othermaciej> there were a bunch of others in that era that drew ~80-100 responses
847. # [21:05] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) ("Nice Scotty, now beam my clothes up too!")
848. # [21:05] <othermaciej> for entertainment, check out these results too: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/results
849. # [21:06] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yt?
850. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> Hixie, yes.
851. # [21:06] <Hixie> AryehGregor: for http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12213 you suggest adding a note for fakepath
852. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> Yes.
853. # [21:06] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it turns out fakepath is mentioned in two places. one is where the bug reporter reported the bug from, which is in class=impl text
854. # [21:06] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the other is in a place more relevant to authors, namely in the input type=file section
855. # [21:07] <Hixie> AryehGregor: that section mentions fakepath as part of a big note on how to use it
856. # [21:07] <Hixie> AryehGregor: does this affect your position?
857. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Hixie, not really. I certainly wouldn't assume either that authors don't read implementer stuff, or that implementers won't want to have a one-line explanation of WTF things like this so that they know they're not hallucinating.
858. # [21:09] <Hixie> should i just point to the other one, or have another similar explanation?
859. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> It's like one line either way, so I don't think it makes a difference.
860. # [21:10] <Hixie> the other one is far more than one line
861. # [21:10] <Hixie> there's sample code and everything
862. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> Well, so you can point to that, sure.
863. # [21:10] <Hixie> k
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866. # [21:12] <Philip`> Maybe you need a sic element to mark sections where the reader might think they're hallucinating, to indicate that it really is that crazy
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882. # [21:47] <zcorpan> Philip`: we could add a warning, "If you have smoked something funny you may be hallucinating."
883. # [21:50] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@199.223.125.118)
884. # [21:50] <Philip`> "If you haven't, maybe you should before reading further"
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887. # [21:52] <zcorpan> but then we'd need another conformance class: the reader
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889. # [21:53] <zcorpan> and two interoperable readers that smoke something funny (unless they have understood the risks of not smoking and have a valid reason for not smoking)
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892. # [21:56] <jgraham> Hmm, no response from anyone at Apple yet
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894. # [22:05] <zcorpan> jgraham: you need to follow that up with a conspiracy theory
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896. # [22:09] <jgraham> Oh sorry
897. # [22:09] <jgraham> Erm
898. # [22:10] <jgraham> If you play Let It Be backwards it reveals that Paul McCartney had a secret plot to kill Steve Jobs in 2011 so they are all in mourning?
899. # [22:10] <jgraham> And therefore unable to express an opinion
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901. # [22:10] <zcorpan> holy shit!
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904. # [22:13] <zcorpan> maybe he failed to kill him the first time and that's why he got ill
905. # [22:13] <jwalden> steve jobs eats cheez whiz
906. # [22:14] <Philip`> I've heard they're planning to replace Steve Jobs with bin Laden who they secretly employed with the cover story of having killed him, once they've given him a sufficiently convincing disguise to stand in with nobody noticing the switch
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936. # [23:22] <Hixie> anyone got IE9/10 available?
937. # [23:22] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ - what does the log say if you paste in <!DOCTYPE html>...<input type=number value=01><script>w(document.getElementsByTagName('input')[0].valueAsNumber)</script> ?
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939. # [23:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: hit upload
940. # [23:23] <Hixie> done
941. # [23:23] <zcorpan> log: undefined
942. # [23:23] <Hixie> thanks
943. # [23:24] <zcorpan> this was ie9 btw
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946. # [23:26] <Hixie> cool, thanks
947. # [23:27] <zcorpan> np
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953. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> Hmm, Opera 11.10's HTML serializer seems to be broken. When will it upgrade to an HTML5 serializer?
954. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> (specifically, it looks like <ol><li></li><ol></ol><li></ol> serializes as <ol><li><ol></ol><li></ol>)
955. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> (which puts the <ol> inside the <li> instead of as a sibling)
956. # [23:45] <zcorpan> doesn't ie do that as well?
957. # [23:45] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I expect that will work once Ragnarok lands for real
958. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, it does omit end tags in some cases, but it seems to get this case right (didn't test carefully).
959. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> jgraham, . . . which means what?
960. # [23:48] <gsnedders> when it's ready, pretty much
961. # [23:48] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I think this is the time that I pull the Apple line about not discussing future products or services
962. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Aw.
963. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Meanie.
964. # [23:49] <jgraham> s/Apple/Google/ maybe
965. # [23:49] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: we'll serialize html correctly no sooner than when we parse html correctly (and likely not later either)
966. # [23:49] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Anyway, basically what gsnedders said
967. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> I was figuring that much, yeah.
968. # [23:50] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@199.223.125.118) (Quit: boaz)
969. # [23:51] <Hixie> abarth: yt?
970. # [23:51] <zcorpan> (we couldn't do it sooner because it wouldn't work right with our current DOM tree lies about where elements end)
971. # [23:51] <wilhelm_> The codename “Ragnarok” might give a clue about the time of its arrival. (c:
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974. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> Wow, we've gotten a huge number of eleventh-hour responses to the survey.
975. # Session Close: Fri May 06 00:00:00 2011

The end :)