/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 16 09:14:42 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [09:14] * Now talking in #whatwg
  4. # [09:14] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  5. # [09:14] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  8. # [09:15] <krijnh> <--
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  10. # [09:15] <krijnh> <-- back even
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  23. # [09:46] <zcorpan> LC seems like even more bureaucracy
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  44. # [10:31] <roc> U+2028/2029 are good for causing crashes in some platform text shapers too
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  55. # [10:43] <b4z81> hi
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  165. # [16:20] <hsivonen> does someone maintain a summary of Web Socket changes since -75?
  166. # [16:22] <zcorpan> -75?
  167. # [16:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what was the last one that was basically Hixie's creation?
  168. # [16:23] <hsivonen> was it -76?
  169. # [16:23] <zcorpan> yeah
  170. # [16:23] <hsivonen> I can't remember how much IETFness was in 76 vs. 75
  171. # [16:23] <zcorpan> actually hixie's latest is called "-latest" and didn't go into ietf
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  173. # [16:23] <hsivonen> -latest sounds more Living than numbered snapshots :-)
  174. # [16:24] <zcorpan> which had changed framing and a few other fixes (subprotocol negotiation comes to mind)
  175. # [16:24] <zcorpan> but -76 was what got implemented, basically
  176. # [16:24] <hsivonen> ok, so is there a summary of the delta between -76 and whatever it is that's being implemented now?
  177. # [16:25] <zcorpan> (opera has a few things from -latest that we had whined about and implemented before hixie got around to fixing the spec)
  178. # [16:25] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  179. # [16:25] <zcorpan> not that i'm aware of
  180. # [16:25] <zcorpan> i would summarize it as follows: everything is changed
  181. # [16:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. thanks.
  182. # [16:26] <jgraham> That's what I was going to say :)
  183. # [16:26] <jgraham> It is basically unrecognisable
  184. # [16:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: did the IETF add or remove features in addition to changing how the old features mapped to bits on the wire?
  185. # [16:27] <zcorpan> added "extensibility", binary support, compression support
  186. # [16:27] <zcorpan> actually i don't recall the state of compression
  187. # [16:27] <zcorpan> might be taken out currently
  188. # [16:28] <zcorpan> also made lots of details undefined
  189. # [16:29] <zcorpan> like error handling
  190. # [16:29] <zcorpan> see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg07063.html
  191. # [16:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: leaving error handling details undefined is seriously uncool. Sad to learn that that happened. :-(
  192. # [16:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what does extensibility do?
  193. # [16:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the framing has reserved bits for anyone to claim special behavior for, aiui
  194. # [16:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: and there's a header to enable the extension or something
  195. # [16:33] <zcorpan> although extensions do not need to use the reserved bits (e.g. compression doesn't)
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  197. # [16:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: please complain on hybi about undefined error handling
  198. # [16:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: as far as i can tell everyone else on hybi seems to think it's cool
  199. # [16:35] <zcorpan> more or less
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  201. # [16:40] <zcorpan> reminds me that i still need to review the newest spec changes
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  204. # [16:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: oh also close frames have status codes
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  211. # [17:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i don't blame you :-)
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  216. # [17:24] <Workshiva> zcorpan: But I hope someone is getting involved, so it doesn't just run wild
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  220. # [17:30] <jgraham> Workshiva: That policy failed
  221. # [17:31] <jgraham> AFAICT the only browser people involve are Ian Fette from Google and Patrick McManus from Mozilla
  222. # [17:32] <jgraham> Notably these are not the people who have been involved with WHATWG / recent W3C work
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  224. # [17:38] <Workshiva> So the plan is just to hope it doesn't run too wild? :)
  225. # [17:39] <jgraham> I don't think ther is a plan
  226. # [17:39] <jgraham> +i
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  231. # [17:40] <zcorpan> yeah i don't know what to do really when it comes to updating our impl
  232. # [17:40] <zcorpan> i guess i will need to reverse engineer mozilla and chrome
  233. # [17:41] <zcorpan> yay for having a spec
  234. # [17:43] <zcorpan> i also hope somebody will push for simplifying the extension mechanism
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  236. # [17:44] <zcorpan> or removing it
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  296. # [20:16] <karlcow> "No matter how good the MSFT rumor/news, this presentation is pretty painful thus far. #OSBC" http://twitter.com/dr138/status/70189401380093952
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  378. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Wait, localStorage only stores strings? That's confusing.
  379. # [23:14] * AryehGregor just ran into that in the context of the fact that Boolean(String(false)) == true
  380. # [23:17] <Philip`> I thought it stored structured clones (at least in theory)?
  381. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Does it? It seems like when I put in a boolean, I get back a string.
  382. # [23:18] <Philip`> "Values can be any data type supported by the structured clone algorithm."
  383. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/994
  384. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> log: string
  385. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> In all four engines.
  386. # [23:20] <Philip`> (and that algorithm should pass primitive values unchanged)
  387. # [23:20] <Philip`> Don't know if implementations do that, though
  388. # [23:20] <bga_> json everywhere
  389. # [23:22] <bga_> localStorage['a'] = '1\02' :(
  390. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Theoretically, it does structured clones. In reality, it's all strings for now.
  391. # [23:22] <bga_> we can not store \x00-\xFF => we can not store binary data
  392. # [23:23] <bga_> asciiz was bad invention
  393. # [23:24] <bga_> window.name also can not contains \0
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  395. # [23:24] <zewt> localStorage is structured clone but I don't think it's widely implemented?
  396. # [23:25] <zewt> many apis seem to be in that state currently
  397. # [23:26] <zewt> from bugzilla spam it looks like they just fixed History doing that in FF
  398. # [23:26] <zewt> would be very nice to be able to store File references in history; don't know if that actually works yet
  399. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> bga_: Just store binares in base64 instead.
  400. # [23:27] <bga_> TabAtkins can you force implementation to store string as len(4 bytes) + content instead content + \0 ?
  401. # [23:27] <bga_> TabAtkins no
  402. # [23:27] <zewt> base64 utf-16, heh
  403. # [23:27] <bga_> i dont want overhead
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  407. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> bga_: Then shrug.
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  411. # [23:35] <Hixie> lordy, window.external interop is poor
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  417. # [23:56] <jamesr> Hixie: yt?
  418. # [23:56] <Hixie> yeah
  419. # [23:56] <Hixie> sup
  420. # [23:56] <jamesr> so about the canvas AX stuff
  421. # [23:57] <jamesr> is this the use case in mind: http://webstuff.nfshost.com/examples/canvas_form.html ?
  422. # [23:57] <Hixie> no
  423. # [23:57] <Hixie> it's more about buttons and list boxes
  424. # [23:57] <Hixie> text editors in canvas don't make sense
  425. # [23:57] <jamesr> are they different?
  426. # [23:58] <Hixie> see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#best-practices
  427. # [23:58] <erlehmann> what
  428. # [23:58] <erlehmann> madness
  429. # [23:58] <erlehmann> jamesr, who created this stuff and whyyyyyyyyyyyy?
  430. # [23:58] <jamesr> lemme make a version with buttons and list boxes, then
  431. # [23:59] <jamesr> erlehmann: i made that page to try to figure out wtf people are talking about with this stuff
  432. # [23:59] * Quits: yijun (~yijun@059148184190.ctinets.com) (Quit: yijun)
  433. # [23:59] <jamesr> because the text editing case is pretty dumb
  434. # [23:59] <mpilgrim> all roads lead to bespin
  435. # [23:59] * Joins: tmzt (~tmzt@adsl-99-164-40-18.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net)
  436. # [23:59] <jamesr> not even bespin uses a canvas any more
  437. # Session Close: Tue May 17 00:00:01 2011

The end :)