/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 18 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <Hixie> sicking: what do you think of having an attribute that enbles CORS use and then also controls whether or not the credentials are sent?
  4. # [00:02] <Hixie> <img src="http://images.example.com/" cross-origin="with-authentication" alt="...">
  5. # [00:03] <Hixie> vs <img src="http://images.example.com/" cross-origin="without-authentication" alt="...">
  6. # [00:03] <Hixie> the latter would be the default, so you could do:
  7. # [00:03] <Hixie> <img src="http://images.example.com/" cross-origin alt="...">
  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> maybe "with-credentials" and "without-credentials" rather than "authentication"
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> or "use-credentials" and "anonymous"
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  11. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> Maybe this is old news, but: http://bellard.org/jslinux/
  12. # [00:10] <Dashiva> Yeah, that's so a few hours ago :P
  13. # [00:10] <Dashiva> Worth repeating, though
  14. # [00:12] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: According to hsivonen, doesn't work if you have big endian typed arrays.
  15. # [00:12] <gsnedders> :(
  16. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> Unsurprising.
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  18. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> Can we just define them to always be little-endian already?
  19. # [00:13] <gsnedders> I'd rather we defined it one way or the other. Defining it to be little-endian means it's mainly embedded devices that'll have the conversion cost, which is sub-optimal…
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  21. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> Lots of embedded devices are little-endian too.
  22. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> ARM can go either way.
  23. # [00:15] <gsnedders> ARM is de-facto little-endian nowadays
  24. # [00:16] <gsnedders> MIPS is the only arch for which browsers really ship on in any quantity where they ship big-endian builds (MIPS is bi-endian too)
  25. # [00:16] <zewt> which will happen first: computers converge on a single set of endianness, word size and newlines; or the world converges on a single spoken language
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  27. # [00:17] <gsnedders> zewt: Endianness and word-size may happen in the not unforseeable future, at least
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  29. # [00:20] <zewt> maybe--still talking decades, though
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  31. # [00:20] <zewt> unless 32-bit systems are shoved out earlier than natural by OS vendors, which could happen
  32. # [00:32] <Philip`> Is there any reason anyone would build a big-endian system nowadays, unless they really need compatibility with some particular old big-endian system?
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  79. # [02:37] <Hixie> am i right that XHR never uses CORS if the url to be fetched is same-origin, even if it redirects to a cross-origin resource?
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  82. # [02:50] <abarth> Hixie: redirect handling in CORS implementations is somewhat nutty
  83. # [02:50] <abarth> and depends on whether the requests are synchronous
  84. # [02:50] <abarth> i suspect (hope!) the spec is less nutty
  85. # [02:51] <Hixie> i'm adding cors to <img> and <video>
  86. # [02:52] <Hixie> the way i've added it, if the url is same-origin, CORS doesn't kick in even if the url points to a redirect that is itself cross-origin
  87. # [02:55] <zewt> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/#infrastructure-for-the-send-method looks like it switches to cross-origin on a cross-origin redirect?
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  89. # [02:58] <Hixie> ah, indeed
  90. # [02:58] <Hixie> well that's a pain
  91. # [02:58] <Hixie> i wish CORS had a codepath for same-origin requsts
  92. # [02:58] <Hixie> that would take care of this
  93. # [02:58] <Hixie> maybe i'll just wait for anne to get back and he can fix me up some simpler way of hooking in
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  96. # [02:59] <zewt> reminds me: anyone know if there's any reliable (implemented) way to force preflight in XHR2, without adding a header to the main request? looks like hooking to progress events will do it, not sure how implemented that is...
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  98. # [03:00] <zewt> doesn't look like it
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  111. # [03:52] <erlehmann> gsnedders, with <http://warumnicht.so/test.html>, is your outliner broken or am i doing something terribly wrong?
  112. # [03:55] <erlehmann> did not close title element. ignore it. -_-
  113. # [03:55] <erlehmann> IRC should put me less in reach with people so I think before annoying them.
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  136. # [05:11] <zewt> ugh, i miss the days when you could reliably stop obnoxious animations by pressing escape; now everything's scripted and harder to get rid of
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  138. # [05:12] <wolfman2000> How much scripting is involved with WhatWG anyway? I don't think I ever understood that part.
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  179. # [06:34] <wirepair> why in the world do dom events decode entities from the attributes?
  180. # [06:35] <wirepair> https://blog.whitehatsec.com/its-a-dom-event/
  181. # [06:35] <wirepair> that just seems crazy
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  202. # [07:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: "The link types that contain no U+003A COLON characters (:), including all those defined in this specification, are ASCII case-insensitive values, and must be compared as such."
  203. # [07:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: which seems to imply that link types that do have a colon are compared code point for code point
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  211. # [08:03] <Akilo> hop
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  213. # [08:15] <ifette> Hixie: Why can a client continue to send on a websocket after calling close()?
  214. # [08:16] <ifette> The API says that if the connection is established and the closing handshake has not yet started, then the uaser agent must send data....
  215. # [08:17] <ifette> why isn't it just defined in terms of "the closing handshake has started"
  216. # [08:17] <ifette> erm... sorry... i meant defiend in terms of the readyState
  217. # [08:18] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.119.115)
  218. # [08:18] <ifette> In an earlier email you said you wanted send() to bail if called after a server-initiated closing handshake, and that the current "start the websocket closing handshake" definition in the protocol is endpoint agnostic
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  220. # [08:18] <ifette> I'm not sure why the initiating endpoint matters?
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  242. # [09:16] <hyungrok> In the HTML5 parsing algorithm, when the parser sees </body> in the in-body insertion mode [§8.2.5.4.7] *without* <body> being in scope, does it still switch to the after-body insertion mode?
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  249. # [09:24] <Ms2ger> hyungrok, I read "no"
  250. # [09:25] <hyungrok> And why would you read it that way?
  251. # [09:25] <Ms2ger> "Ignore this token"
  252. # [09:26] <Ms2ger> If you switch the mode, you haven't ignored it, no?
  253. # [09:26] <hyungrok> Yes. But then there's no "otherwise" around the "Switch the insertion mode..." bit.
  254. # [09:27] <hyungrok> For instance, a couple paragraphs below ("a start tag that's one of ‘address’ &c.),
  255. # [09:27] <hyungrok> it says: "If the stack of open elements has a p element in button scope, then act as if an end tag with the tag name "p" had been seen.
  256. # [09:27] <hyungrok> Insert an HTML element for the token."
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  258. # [09:28] <hyungrok> Clearly it's meant that the parser should "insert an HTML element" regardless of the if above.
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  260. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> (AFAICT, Gecko doesn't switch the mode)
  261. # [09:30] <Dashiva> hyungrok: The otherwise part is because it's another way to trigger a parse error (while not ignoring the token)
  262. # [09:33] <Dashiva> If you look at cases like 'A start tag whose tag name is "frameset"' having 'ignore the token' clearly implies stopping processing immediately
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  264. # [09:33] <hyungrok> Okay. Thanks for the clarification.
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  273. # [09:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: hm yeah, i should strip that. i'll file a bug.
  274. # [09:59] <Hixie> ifette: i don't have a strong opinion on that one way or the other, happy to spec it either way
  275. # [10:00] <Hixie> hyungrok: if the spec isn't clear on this, please don't hesitate to file a bug and i'll look at it more closely (use the widget in the bottom left of the spec to do that)
  276. # [10:01] <ifette> Hixie: I have added (in svn) a definition for "The WebSocket Closing Handshake is Started"
  277. # [10:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: good to know. Fortunately, I didn't get around to implementing that bit just yet
  278. # [10:01] <ifette> Upon either sending or receiving a Close control frame, it is said
  279. # [10:01] <ifette> that <spanx style='emph'>The WebSocket Closing Handshake is
  280. # [10:01] <ifette> Started</spanx>.
  281. # [10:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: done, filed as bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12677
  282. # [10:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, is it intentional to allow stuff like rel=stylesheet on <link> that appears in <body> as microdata?
  283. # [10:01] <ifette> i'm going through your email and trying to make sure i add all the hooks you need. if you want, I can also send you a patch for the api spec
  284. # [10:02] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-590c7b71.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  285. # [10:02] <Hixie> ifette: nah, i can do the api side. there's a bunch of other stuff i need to fix anyway.
  286. # [10:02] <ifette> Hixie: great
  287. # [10:02] <Hixie> ifette: awesome news on the protocol side update though, i look forward to it
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  289. # [10:02] <Hixie> hsivonen: iirc that's not allowed, let me recheck
  290. # [10:03] <ifette> Hixie: I'm in Tokyo working with the WS guys. There's a ton of editorial stuff that has been brought up by editorial reviews, but I'm hoping to at least have your hooks done tonight. Will be able to send you a copy that includes that stuff in the next 24h. We're aiming to publish -08 early next week.
  291. # [10:03] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Nice Scotty, now beam my clothes up too!)
  292. # [10:03] <Hixie> ifette: i'm out til friday, so likely won't get to it til monday (i expect friday will be 100% dealing with e-mail... you know the drill)
  293. # [10:03] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  294. # [10:03] <ifette> Hixie: as for errors, I think there's very few errors left anymore, and most trigger a connection close -- let me talk with tyoshino et al, but i think it's probably safe to remove this.)
  295. # [10:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: wow, weird, i wonder why we allow both rel="" and itemprop=""
  296. # [10:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: anyway, as long as <link> and <a> have different allowed rels, this smells like a bug
  297. # [10:05] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think we should disallow rel="" outside <head> for <link>, and make itemprop and rel mutually exclusive -- what do you think?
  298. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: in principle, I think that makes sense
  299. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: however, I can see why someone might want to use both on <a> for backwards compat with tools that only scrape rel
  300. # [10:06] <hsivonen> if such tools are real anyway
  301. # [10:06] * Quits: hyungrok (~hyungrok@128.12.97.179) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  302. # [10:06] <Hixie> yeah i only mean for <link>
  303. # [10:06] <Hixie> agreed on <a>
  304. # [10:06] <Hixie> i filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12678 for <link>
  305. # [10:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  306. # [10:08] <Hixie> ifette: just saw your mail; does our discussion above clarify the issue sufficiently?
  307. # [10:16] <zcorpan> hey ifette
  308. # [10:16] * zcorpan goes to read backlog
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  310. # [10:18] <ifette> hey
  311. # [10:20] <zcorpan> [10:03] <ifette> Hixie: as for errors, I think there's very few errors left anymore, and most trigger a connection close -- let me talk with tyoshino et al, but i think it's probably safe to remove this.)
  312. # [10:20] <zcorpan> ifette: what does that refer to?
  313. # [10:20] <ifette> websocket onError event
  314. # [10:20] <zcorpan> got a link to your latest draft?
  315. # [10:21] <ifette> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/hybi/trac/browser/websocket - still being worked on, will have a new draft next week
  316. # [10:22] <ifette> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/hybi/trac/browser/websocket/draft-ietf-hybi-thewebsocketprotocol.xml rather
  317. # [10:23] <zcorpan> thanks
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  321. # [10:25] <zcorpan> ifette: where does it define when onerror is to be invoked?
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  329. # [10:36] <ifette> it doesn't
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  339. # [10:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: why the hyphen in cross-origin?
  340. # [10:45] <Hixie> why not?
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  342. # [10:48] <zcorpan> because we generally try to avoid hyphens in element and attribute names
  343. # [10:49] <Hixie> we do?
  344. # [10:50] <zcorpan> c.f. event-source
  345. # [10:50] <Hixie> what was our reasoning on that one again?
  346. # [10:50] <Hixie> for attributes we have several precedents
  347. # [10:51] <Hixie> accept-charset, http-equiv
  348. # [10:51] <jgraham> Consistency, I thought
  349. # [10:51] <Hixie> i guess for elements it makes sense
  350. # [10:51] <Hixie> i don't really mind either way, i just thought crossorigin="" looked worse than cross-origin=""
  351. # [10:51] <Hixie> but it's a trivial matter really
  352. # [10:52] <Hixie> if you think it should be crossorigin="" then mail the list, i can change it
  353. # [10:52] <Hixie> right now though, i must go sleep
  354. # [10:52] <Hixie> nn
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  358. # [10:59] <zcorpan> i can find http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/001052.html but not the email where Hixie argues for the rename
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  360. # [11:02] <erlehmann> zcorpan, i think “cross-origin” is better. easier to read.
  361. # [11:02] <jgraham> We tend to use - in author-supplied things
  362. # [11:03] <jgraham> Like -data-
  363. # [11:03] * zcorpan also finds http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6153 which is the date of the rename i think
  364. # [11:04] <zcorpan> uh, no it wasn't
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  366. # [11:07] <zcorpan> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080707#l-26
  367. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Should the validator warn about <meta name> or <link rel> values that are in the "proposal" state?
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  369. # [11:09] <hsivonen> or should proposals count as silently OK?
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  373. # [11:10] * hsivonen observes that http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions lacks links to more details
  374. # [11:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: any plans to delegate meta extensions to microformats.org, too?
  375. # [11:13] * hsivonen observes that the MetaExtensions page has some registrations that are invalid because they claim a space of tokens instead of enumerating tokens
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  379. # [11:16] <zcorpan> Philip`: video is still on iframe.html
  380. # [11:18] <zcorpan> heh, click on cross-origin definition in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/the-iframe-element.html#attr-media-cross-origin
  381. # [11:18] <hsivonen> Do the meta name extensions that Nick Levinson added have any specs at a URL?
  382. # [11:18] <hsivonen> Should registry entries that fail to link to a spec be removed from the registry?
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  385. # [11:26] <zcorpan> ok so video is now same-origin by default? is that gonna fly?
  386. # [11:27] <zcorpan> "Otherwise, fetch the current media resource, from the media element's Document's origin, with the force same-origin flag set." http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/the-iframe-element.html#concept-media-load-resource
  387. # [11:27] <zcorpan> foolip: ^
  388. # [11:28] <foolip> zcorpan, no, I don't think it's a good idea at all, and intended to complain about it
  389. # [11:28] <foolip> but please do it for me
  390. # [11:28] <zcorpan> what were you going to say? :)
  391. # [11:28] <foolip> actually, the spec already said something along these lines before the recent cross-origin attribute change, but I've ignored the spec on that point
  392. # [11:29] <zcorpan> oh?
  393. # [11:29] <foolip> I haven't read the diff yet, so I'm not sure what it's trying to do
  394. # [11:29] <foolip> but I don't think that the cross-origin attribute should be needed to load <video> elements cross-origin
  395. # [11:30] <foolip> IIUC, the current spec suggests that a network error should be the result
  396. # [11:30] <zcorpan> ah yeah video had force same-origin before too
  397. # [11:31] <foolip> yes, which I ignored, and I think everyone else too
  398. # [11:31] <foolip> not sure what the overall philosophy here is
  399. # [11:31] * Parts: hyungrok (~hyungrok@128.12.107.231)
  400. # [11:33] <zcorpan> ok filed a bug
  401. # [11:33] <foolip> thanks
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  451. # [14:26] <hsivonen> I curated http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions . Please review.
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  455. # [14:36] <karlcow> hsivonen: what is the list of requirements?
  456. # [14:36] <karlcow> " Proposals that don't meet the requirements for a registration"
  457. # [14:37] <hsivonen> karlcow: see the link in the first paragraph of the page
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  459. # [14:38] <hsivonen> karlcow: now the word "requirements" is also a link in the heading
  460. # [14:38] <karlcow> hmm I see. Thanks. :) ah thanks for the modification too.
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  468. # [14:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: Remind me what was decided about filtering of innerHTML input into the parser and whether it made it into the spec or not
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  470. # [14:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: no filtering. Not sure if it made into the spec.
  471. # [14:47] <jgraham> For anything including CR and so on?
  472. # [14:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh, CR and CRLF normalization happens
  473. # [14:47] * jgraham seems to remember that being the case
  474. # [14:48] <jgraham> OK. So no filtering but CR normalization happens
  475. # [14:48] <jgraham> I will see if the spec agrees :)
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  477. # [14:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: let's change the spec if it doesn't :-)
  478. # [14:48] <jgraham> Indeed
  479. # [14:49] <jgraham> I'm all in favour of this approach
  480. # [14:51] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  481. # [14:52] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should bother to implement validation for the value of the content attribute when the value of the name attribute is viewport, robots or one of the robot-specific synonyms for robots...
  482. # [14:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: do the robot-specific synonyms have the same syntax and no extensions?
  483. # [14:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: at least when extensions are supported, documentations says they are supported for "robots", too
  484. # [14:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not sure if some bot-specific synonyms allow a narrower set of tokens only
  485. # [14:56] <hsivonen> probably
  486. # [14:56] <hsivonen> I'd expect <meta name=googlebot content=NOYDIR> not to be supported by Google
  487. # [14:58] * hsivonen wonders how many people use Teoma as their search engine
  488. # [14:59] <hsivonen> wow. this is uncool: whenever a Teoma result should point to wikipedia, it points to wiki.ask.com instead
  489. # [14:59] <hsivonen> which is just a copy of the wikipedia article
  490. # [14:59] <hsivonen> allowed by the license of course.
  491. # [14:59] <hsivonen> but still not cool
  492. # [15:00] <hsivonen> at least Google didn't go there with Knol
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  501. # [15:19] <roc> Google didn't go anywhere with Knol
  502. # [15:19] <roc> there are quite a few copies of wikipedia floating around trying to get traffic
  503. # [15:23] <mpilgrim> it turns out true experts aren't well-motivated by the prospect of earning a few pennies on ads writing on someone else's site
  504. # [15:24] <mpilgrim> but content spammers are
  505. # [15:24] <mpilgrim> go figure
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  507. # [15:31] <hsivonen> ok. Validator.nu now checks the value of rel="" and <meta name="">.
  508. # [15:31] <hsivonen> enjoy the new strictness
  509. # [15:31] <hsivonen> or if you don't enjoy it, please get your unregistered tokens registered!
  510. # [15:40] * mpilgrim furiously checks his own sites
  511. # [15:41] <mpilgrim> rel="shortcut icon" is invalid now?
  512. # [15:41] <mpilgrim> @hsivonen
  513. # [15:49] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: not registered according to the requirements set forth in the spec!
  514. # [15:50] <hsivonen> also, it appears that no one has registered google-site-verification so far for <meta name>
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  516. # [15:50] <mpilgrim> does rel="icon" actually work without "shortcut"?
  517. # [15:51] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: I don't know. I sure hope Hixie knows and tested before leaving "shortcut" out of the spec!
  518. # [15:51] * Joins: rsato (~rsato@187.38.166.224)
  519. # [15:51] <hsivonen> clearly, having "shortcut" be invalid is not going to be practical
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  523. # [15:55] <jgraham> Hmm, I assumed that the LC CfC was per-Member, but it seems to be set up as per-individual
  524. # [15:55] * wilhelm slaps whoever came up with urn: schemes.
  525. # [15:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's per-individual
  526. # [15:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: Where did the chairs say that?
  527. # [15:55] <jgraham> (and why? That doesn't make much sense)
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  531. # [15:56] <matjas> hsivonen: is validator.nu supposed to error for `rel=me` and `rel=nofollow`? aren’t those registered?
  532. # [15:57] <hsivonen> matjas: for rel=me, it's supposed to err until someone fixes the registry
  533. # [15:57] <hsivonen> matjas: for rel=nofollow, not supposed to err
  534. # [15:57] * hsivonen checks
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  536. # [15:58] <hsivonen> matjas: <a rel=nofollow> WFM
  537. # [15:58] <hsivonen> matjas: <link rel=nofollow> is an error per spec, though
  538. # [15:59] <hsivonen> matjas: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0213.html
  539. # [15:59] <matjas> my bad, I was testing `rel="me nofollow"` and it just threw an error for `nofollow`
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  541. # [15:59] <hsivonen> matjas: on which element?
  542. # [16:00] <matjas> hsivonen: for `me`, sorry
  543. # [16:00] * matjas needs more sleep
  544. # [16:00] <matjas> thanks for that link
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  551. # [16:12] <zcorpan> hmm, i guess whining about rel="shortcut icon" is mostly a time waster
  552. # [16:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ^
  553. # [16:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes, indeed
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  555. # [16:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: let's get it registered.
  556. # [16:16] <hsivonen> First, gotta find a spec for it.
  557. # [16:17] * zcorpan finds http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms537656(v=vs.85).aspx#Associate_the_Icon_with_Your_Web_Page
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  561. # [16:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  562. # [16:19] <matjas> “HTML5” standardizes /favicon.ico anyways
  563. # [16:20] <hsivonen> the microformats.org wiki is slow today
  564. # [16:20] <matjas> no need to register `shortcut` IMHO
  565. # [16:20] <zcorpan> matjas: still a time waster
  566. # [16:20] <matjas> most people don’t seem to know about /favicon.ico
  567. # [16:20] <matjas> so it may just be helpful
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  569. # [16:21] <zcorpan> what if you want to use different icons for different pages, or want to locate the icon somewhere else?
  570. # [16:22] <matjas> sure
  571. # [16:22] <matjas> if oldIE support is a must then you would still use rel="shortcut icon"
  572. # [16:23] <matjas> although IMHO /favicon.ico could be considered as graceful degradation for that
  573. # [16:23] <matjas> so you could just use `icon`
  574. # [16:24] <hsivonen> registering "shortcut" would be easier if the wiki wasn't so slow
  575. # [16:24] <matjas> it’s a sign!
  576. # [16:25] * matjas runs
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  580. # [16:28] <karlcow> https://github.com/wireghoul/htshells
  581. # [16:31] <hsivonen> aargh. the microformats wiki is completely unusable right now
  582. # [16:31] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  583. # [16:31] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  584. # [16:33] <hsivonen> now there's an FO to advancing HTML5 to REC. that's more like an HTML WG poll.
  585. # [16:35] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@195.130.156.13) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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  588. # [16:39] <jgraham> Only from someone who objected to everything
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  590. # [16:40] <mpilgrim> in retrospect, migrating a 300 MB repository to new hosting while sitting in an internet cafe was not the brightest decision i've ever made
  591. # [16:40] <mpilgrim> though it is by no means the dumbest, either
  592. # [16:41] <Jon47> lol
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  594. # [16:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: still, it wouldn't feel like an HTML WG poll without an FO
  595. # [16:45] <hsivonen> I sure hope the slowness of the microformats.org wiki is transient. otherwise, the experience for registering stuff is not going to be good.
  596. # [16:45] <mpilgrim> tantek can probably fix it once he wakes up
  597. # [16:46] <mpilgrim> ironically, the administration of the microformats site is not distributed
  598. # [16:47] <hsivonen> hooray, now we have one registration: http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions
  599. # [16:47] <hsivonen> time to implement it in software
  600. # [16:47] <jgraham> This is not news, but occasionally I read emails from a11y taskforce people and get visions of a strange and distressing world. What on earth could a "Text Subteam" possibly be?
  601. # [16:47] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Client Quit)
  602. # [16:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: is there an org chart for the a11y TF?
  603. # [16:49] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  604. # [16:50] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  605. # [16:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: Who knows
  606. # [16:51] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: they talked about making one, but it got bogged down in discussions of how to make it accessible
  607. # [16:51] <jgraham> I imagine reading it would be like staring into the void
  608. # [16:51] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.68)
  609. # [16:52] <hsivonen> bitbucket is also being slow today
  610. # [16:52] <jgraham> Worryingly I can't tell if mpilgrim is serious or not
  611. # [16:52] <hsivonen> I wonder if there's something wrong with my connection
  612. # [16:54] <mpilgrim> jgraham: what you're experiencing is the a11y version of Poe's Law
  613. # [16:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: Microformats wiki seems fine to me
  614. # [16:54] <mpilgrim> which states that it's impossible to distinguish between parodies of religious extremism and religious extremism itself
  615. # [16:54] <mpilgrim> (and i was kidding, btw)
  616. # [16:55] <karlcow> a FO for a wrong dated link…
  617. # [16:55] <karlcow> I don't understand
  618. # [16:56] <karlcow> I think there is a misunderstanding about what is FO
  619. # [16:57] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: rel="shortcut icon" is now valid
  620. # [16:58] <mpilgrim> that was quick. i haven't even finished migrating my repository yet (which i was doing so i could check in that fix)
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  622. # [16:58] <jgraham> karlcow: Since the chairs have propogated the idea that a FO is the only kind of dissent that they will pay attention to, it is not surprising that people use it for trivia
  623. # [16:59] <karlcow> specifically when the dated URI is the URI of 24 May WHEN the spec will enter Last Call. Any pub request is always like that
  624. # [16:59] <karlcow> it is silly
  625. # [16:59] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@95-55-1-236.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru)
  626. # [17:02] <karlcow> ah MikeSmith has answered. good good http://www.w3.org/mid/20110518134400.GB59744@sideshowbarker
  627. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> yeah, I think I've also resolved this problem with the drafts not being static
  628. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> by making copies of them and setting up some temporary redirects
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  630. # [17:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: rel="shortcut" without icon validates too
  631. # [17:08] <karlcow> hsivonen: suggestion for validator.nu (just thoughts), for the values which are not yet accepted but identified in a page would it be interesting to have a Warning text saying "this value is in the list but not formally accepted or rejected. You may [Help](link to the wiki) to fix it."
  632. # [17:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: Your msdn link is 404 for me
  633. # [17:10] * karlcow thinks poor hsivonen… 3 opera persons bothering him in a row :p
  634. # [17:10] <hsivonen> karlcow: there's already a link to the wiki registry. do you mean I should rephrase it?
  635. # [17:10] <karlcow> let me check again.
  636. # [17:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: sure, the spec doesn't support co-occurrence constraints for validitity
  637. # [17:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: even though alternate and stylesheet are magic together
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  639. # [17:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: the link was supposed to be http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms537656%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#Associate_the_Icon_with_Your_Web_Page
  640. # [17:12] <hsivonen> did the wiki mangle it?
  641. # [17:12] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  642. # [17:12] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  643. # [17:13] <hsivonen> if someone else has a faster connection to the wiki, feel free to paste in the correct link from IRC
  644. # [17:13] <hsivonen> I'm going to go deal with dishes in the kitchen while the wiki loads
  645. # [17:15] <karlcow> s/is not registered./is [proposed|rejected]./
  646. # [17:15] <karlcow> and when in the category proposed: "You may help get it rejected or accepted… and then the prose with links"
  647. # [17:16] <hsivonen> karlcow: for practical purposes, "Proposed" has to count as valid
  648. # [17:16] <hsivonen> karlcow: since most things will sit in the "Proposed" state for years
  649. # [17:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i thought about alternate stylesheet but they can be used alone while shortcut is meaningless alone
  650. # [17:17] <karlcow> so I just tried with name="creator" and it says Error
  651. # [17:17] <hsivonen> karlcow: otherwise, this would be just another IANA exercise with the designated expert denying validity
  652. # [17:17] <hsivonen> karlcow: creator is not registered according to the requirements for registration
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  654. # [17:17] <hsivonen> (I'm starting to sound like a Designated Expert. Hmm.)
  655. # [17:17] <karlcow> ah sorry I might be using the wrong vocabulary
  656. # [17:18] <karlcow> I'm talking about this list in which creator is for example
  657. # [17:18] <karlcow> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions#Proposals_that_don.27t_meet_the_requirements_for_a_registration
  658. # [17:19] <hsivonen> karlcow: that's a list of stuff that doesn't meet the requirements, so the validator doesn't know about that list
  659. # [17:19] <karlcow> This I understood.
  660. # [17:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it seems a spec amendment would be required for making shortcut without icon invalid
  661. # [17:20] <karlcow> What I'm proposing is that the validator knows about it, to speed up rejection or adoption by inviting people to give information on the wiki.
  662. # [17:20] <karlcow> As I said just thoughts.
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  681. # [18:10] <hsivonen> krijnh: it seems the yellow highlights don't get saved
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  728. # [19:40] <linclark> is this a good channel for asking questions about microdata? or is there another channel for that
  729. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> Go ahead.
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  735. # [19:55] <linclark> is there a list of known consumers of microdata yet? I see that there are notes that parts are ready for first implmentation, I'm not sure whether there have been any
  736. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> Google consumes at least some Microdata.
  737. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> Dunno if there's a comprehensive list.
  738. # [19:57] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: has Google's consumption been investigated for spec compliance?
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  740. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Not to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
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  742. # [20:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: data point: After I added rel and name checking to Validator.nu, 5 people gave me feedback almost immediately
  743. # [20:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: 4 of the 5 people were concerned about rel="shortcut icon"
  744. # [20:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: considering how popular "shortcut icon" is and considering that Microsoft was the first to mint it before other implemented just "icon", it would make sense to grandfather "shortcut icon"
  745. # [20:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: right now, to make the validator not suck, I have to register "shortcut"
  746. # [20:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: which means that rel="shortcut" becomes valid
  747. # [20:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: which is bogus
  748. # [20:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: but the closest approximation that the registration mechanism provides
  749. # [20:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, the 5th person was interested in the registration of "shortcut" afterwards
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  757. # [20:19] <hsivonen> btw, bonus points to anyone who can dig up Microsoft documentation that says that Bing pays attention to <meta name=msnbot>
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  848. # Session Close: Thu May 19 00:00:00 2011

The end :)