/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-26 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu May 26 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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15. # [00:43] <jamesr> heycam: yo
16. # [00:43] <jamesr> heycam: what's ISSUE-6?
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18. # [00:50] <Hixie> abarth: it's intentional
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20. # [00:53] <heycam> jamesr, that's asking to define what happens when you call requestAnimationFrame twice with the same callback before the next animation tick
21. # [00:54] <jamesr> should be just like settimeout
22. # [00:54] <jamesr> the callback is invoked twice
23. # [00:54] <jamesr> why's that ambiguous?
24. # [00:54] <jamesr> well i guess since we haven't defined a processing model, it's unclear from the spec
25. # [00:54] <jamesr> but seems pretty obvious
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27. # [00:54] <heycam> right, I think Jatinder just wants it to be clear whether it's invoked once or twice
28. # [00:55] <jamesr> sure
29. # [00:55] <jamesr> processing model is on my todo list for this week
30. # [00:55] <heycam> great!
31. # [00:55] <heycam> we talked in the call today about publication
32. # [00:55] <heycam> plh and jatinder would like to publish the FPWD on thursday next week. they (and I) don't mind if not all of the issues have been resolved before publication.
33. # [00:56] <heycam> but it would be good to get as many of them knocked down as possible
34. # [00:57] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
35. # [00:57] <jamesr> i think the microsoft folks care a lot more about publication, etc than i do
36. # [00:57] <heycam> :)
37. # [00:57] <jamesr> so if they feel strongly that something should or shouldn't be published then i'm generally not gonna want to fight about it
38. # [00:57] <heycam> ok
39. # [00:58] <jamesr> well currently it isn't really a specification of anything
40. # [00:58] <heycam> I think it's good to get something published so that the spec gets more attention
41. # [00:58] <jamesr> because it doesn't say how anything works
42. # [00:58] <heycam> well, sure
43. # [00:58] <jamesr> but i'm not opposed to publishing at any time
44. # [00:58] <heycam> right, neither am I
45. # [00:58] <jamesr> i think ost of the feedback will probably be "hey, you didn't specify anything!"
46. # [00:58] <jamesr> which we can then fix :)
47. # [01:00] <heycam> yep. I think it's reasonably common in W3C land for first public working drafts not to be terribly complete, anyway.
48. # [01:01] <heycam> so I'll take a look early next week after you've worked on the processing model and see if I can resolve any of the other open issues
49. # [01:08] <abarth> Hixie: thx
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55. # [01:14] <jamesr> heycam: there's another question about the timestamps
56. # [01:14] <jamesr> a lot of animation systems provide two timestamps
57. # [01:14] <jamesr> a "when is this callback being invoked" time and a "when is this frame expected to hit the screen" time
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59. # [01:15] <heycam> is the former related to the currently displayed frame time?
60. # [01:15] <jamesr> i don't fully grok the requirements around that
61. # [01:15] <jamesr> no, i don't think so
62. # [01:16] <heycam> would it be a different time per callback?
63. # [01:16] <heycam> that doesn't seem that useful, if so
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66. # [01:17] <jamesr> like i said i don't fully understand what it's all about
67. # [01:17] <heycam> ok
68. # [01:17] <jamesr> but if CoreAnimation does it, seems worth at least figuring out why
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82. # [01:43] <JonathanNeal> Hey all.
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86. # [01:46] <danheberden> g'day JonathanNeal
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88. # [01:50] <JonathanNeal> :) thanks danheberden
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93. # [02:02] <erlehmann> I see what you did there. <http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-input-element-attributes.html#attr-input-maxlength>
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97. # [02:18] <jamesr> AryehGregor: what's the conceptual difference between parsing a script and executing it?
98. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> jamesr, the same as the difference between compiling a C program and executing it. It might not actually be relevant to all existing implementations, of course.
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100. # [02:19] <jamesr> no such distinction exists for javascript, really
101. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> But I assume everyone does something like compile the whole file to bytecode first thing, at least.
102. # [02:19] <jamesr> no
103. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> No?
104. # [02:19] <jamesr> no
105. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> Then what do you do with it?
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107. # [02:19] <jamesr> there's a few things
108. # [02:20] <jamesr> but one really important distinction is that code can be lazily compiled and constantly recompiled during execution
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110. # [02:21] <jamesr> the only thing we do on a chunk of script in v8 currently before starting to execute code is to essentially brace match
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112. # [02:21] <jamesr> also keep in mind that evaluating the source "function foo() { }" is _executing_ code
113. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> The assertion in that thread is that compilation of large amounts of causes visible lag if it has to be done synchronously, even if the code doesn't actually do anything beyond define some functions. Is that the case in V8?
114. # [02:21] <jamesr> that's setting a variable called 'foo' on the global object
115. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> I realize that.
116. # [02:22] <jamesr> i think that assertion is based on the time spent executing the code
117. # [02:22] <jamesr> i.e. assigning the global variable to 'foo' and dealing with all the side effects of that
118. # [02:22] <jamesr> which you can't meaningfully pass to another thread
119. # [02:22] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
120. # [02:22] <jamesr> you can brace match on another thread, but that's not going to buy you much
121. # [02:23] <jamesr> i haven't jumped in on that thread because everyone is using slightly different terminology and it's just kind of a mess :/
122. # [02:23] <AryehGregor> So you're saying that executing a couple hundred KB of JavaScript is always going to require a large synchronous lag, and you can't just separate off some of the expensive parts to a background thread?
123. # [02:23] <jamesr> no, not really
124. # [02:23] <AryehGregor> That's not really what you're saying, or you can't really separate it off?
125. # [02:23] <jamesr> JS engine developers work really hard to cut down on the time it takes to execute a few hundred KB of javascript
126. # [02:24] <jamesr> i think what authors want is a way to download script but not execute it
127. # [02:24] <jamesr> and they are just being lazy about what they mean by 'parse'
128. # [02:24] <AryehGregor> I'd assume people like Steve Souders can figure out the difference between download and execution.
129. # [02:24] <jamesr> hah!
130. # [02:24] <AryehGregor> Or execution/parsing/whatever.
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132. # [02:24] <AryehGregor> You can just look at the right tab in Web Inspector, right? It tells you how much time it's spending on what.
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134. # [02:25] <jamesr> even very educated and web-saavy people on the internet can have pretty broken mental models about how javascript engines work
135. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> When I go to the "Timeline" tab in Web Inspector, I see separate steps called "Parse" and "Evaulate Script".
136. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> It doesn't say what it's parsing, though.
137. # [02:26] <jamesr> that's just confusing UI
138. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> Not totally sure if it's JS or HTML.
139. # [02:26] <jamesr> it's parsing HTML
140. # [02:26] <jamesr> which might include time spent executing script
141. # [02:26] <jamesr> if it parses a <script> tag, f'instance
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143. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> That is pretty confusing.
144. # [02:27] <jamesr> there isn't a useful "parse' time for JS to expose, tho
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146. # [02:29] <jamesr> some website we saw tries to 'preload' script by setting it as the src of an <object> tag
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148. # [02:30] <jamesr> caused a gigantic pause in webkit once the thing loaded since we tried to linebreak it all nicely
149. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> Hahaha.
150. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> Is there any good way to separate download from parse/execute time right now?
151. # [02:30] <jamesr> does disabled work on <script> tags?
152. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> There's no disabled attribute on <script>, no.
153. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> With <img>, apparently new Image().src = 'foo' works.
154. # [02:31] <jamesr> yeah
155. # [02:31] <jamesr> that creates a new image element and starts a load
156. # [02:32] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, free to answer another selection related question?
157. # [02:32] <jamesr> was there a use case B on that thread or just use case A?
158. # [02:32] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, not now. Ask tomorrow.
159. # [02:32] <AryehGregor> jamesr, seems it was just A.
160. # [02:32] <AryehGregor> According to you, though, use case A was incoherent.
161. # [02:33] <jamesr> incoherent in modern JS engines where there's not much of a distinction between parse and execution, yes
162. # [02:33] <JonathanNeal> Will do, thanks :D
163. # [02:33] <jamesr> and i think the original author requests were about execution
164. # [02:33] <jamesr> even if they thought it was about parsing
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167. # [02:38] <jamesr> AryehGregor: seems like what hixie is really saying is that the author could wrap everything in a big closure and not execute it
168. # [02:38] <smaug____> what is the origin of term "browser chrome" or just "chrome"? Was that used already before Mozilla?
169. # [02:38] <jamesr> so it's entirely up to the author how much time it takes to execute
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171. # [02:39] <AryehGregor> jamesr, so if they wrap it in a big closure and don't execute it, that does take negligible time?
172. # [02:39] <jamesr> depends on what the JS engine is doing
173. # [02:39] <jamesr> but it could take negligible time, yes
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175. # [02:41] <jamesr> afaict nobody's actually measured that and reported it to the thread
176. # [02:42] <jamesr> i think the biggest thing hixie is ignoring is that the author isn't necessarily in control of the contents of the script
177. # [02:42] <jamesr> if i want to load up jquery or something else that has a lot of expensive top-level statements, then i can't just wrap it in a closure
178. # [02:43] <jamesr> i gotta add it to a <script> and let all of those top-level statements execute whenever it finishes loading
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180. # [02:47] <AryehGregor> Well, if you're actually using jQuery right away on page load, that's not avoidable, except by modularizing jQuery and only loading the modules you need (which they already do AFAIK).
181. # [02:47] <jamesr> sure, but if you aren't using it right away but still want to start the download ASAP then you are AWOL
182. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> Didn't people say Gmail puts the script contents in a big comment and uncomments it when needed?
183. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> Anything wrong with that?
184. # [02:49] <jamesr> nope
185. # [02:49] <jamesr> still doesn't help with the jquery case
186. # [02:49] <jamesr> where you want to use a well-known URL to hit cache if possible
187. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> Ah, that's a different case, yeah.
188. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure that's what was being asked, though.
189. # [02:49] <jamesr> not exactly
190. # [02:49] <jamesr> but it seems related
191. # [02:51] <AryehGregor> Okay, now it's time for me to head off to bed.
192. # [02:51] <jamesr> oh yay you responded so now i don't have to say anything on the thread
193. # [02:51] <jamesr> wheeee
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197. # [03:03] <zewt> jamesr: isn't that the example I showed?
198. # [03:04] <jamesr> zewt: ah, seems it is
199. # [03:04] <jamesr> (i skipped most of the thread)
200. # [03:04] <jamesr> did you try it on mobile?
201. # [03:04] <zewt> nope
202. # [03:04] <zewt> i generally just assume mobile browsers are bad at everything
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204. # [03:04] <jamesr> there is some work that happens before executing the line 'var yourAPI = '...
205. # [03:04] <zewt> but i think there's no reason they couldn't do it as efficiently
206. # [03:04] <jamesr> but i don't think it is terribly significant
207. # [03:04] <jamesr> you can observe that by timing in a different <script> block
208. # [03:05] <jamesr> yeah grab a start time in a script block above the one defining go() and grab and end time in a block after
209. # [03:05] <zewt> not sure how to get anything after parsing and before top-level execution to do timings there
210. # [03:05] <jamesr> the first line of execution is roughly the end of parsing
211. # [03:05] <jamesr> for this very loose definition of 'parsing'
212. # [03:05] <zewt> that's the point--parsing can be async, so we don't (in theory) care about it
213. # [03:06] <jamesr> observable side effects or it didn't happen
214. # [03:06] <zewt> if there's anything after parsing but before execution that can't be async (eg. depends on the window somehow), that's the only thing that would be a problem, I think
215. # [03:06] <zewt> (that's the part that I mentioned I don't know about)
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221. # [03:27] <zewt> curse you chrome to phone for not working for apps accounts and making me type out my own annoying long URL on a touchscreen
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223. # [03:28] <zewt> top-level context time is also 0ms on android 2.3.4 (stock) browser, FYI
224. # [03:28] <zewt> curiously, the "initializing API" part took 1884ms the first time and 89ms after a refresh
225. # [03:29] <zewt> don't know if that's some kind of caching or just a timing hiccup
226. # [03:30] <jamesr> does it repeat if you clear cache + try again?
227. # [03:33] <zewt> yeah
228. # [03:33] <zewt> I/browser (10698): Console: Initializing API took: 1944ms https://zewt.org/~glenn/test-top-level-context-execution/:10
229. # [03:34] <zewt> that's the inner call, though, not the part that people want to be cheap
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231. # [03:34] <zewt> still curious
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249. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I want to let you know I have set up some semi-automation for generating new bugs from comments posted the public-html-comments list
250. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> if it ends up causing too much confusion/redundancy/extra-work, I can try to figure out something else
251. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> but one of the reasons I set it up was to help address the problems that have been raised with accessibility of the bugzilla UI
252. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> I am told that those problems are not insignificant
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255. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> so I'm also going to be working on trying to get improvements made to our bugzilla UI
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258. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> e.g., by upgrading to v4, or by setting up alternative templates, or whatever else helps
259. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> but in the mean time at least, I hope it'll help that we can let people know we're providing the comments list as an alternative, and have some way of taking those and raising bugs for them that we can track (for the purposes of being able to include them in the LC disposition of comments, etc.)
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314. # [06:46] <Hixie> MikeSmith: k
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316. # [06:46] <Hixie> jamesr_: you'd better do more than just brace matching, otherwise you're non-compliant
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318. # [06:46] <Hixie> e.g. you have to be able to catch syntax errors deep inside a script before you do anything with visible sideeffects
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325. # [06:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the volume on the comments list has been really low anyway, so if it stays on the same order it has in the past, there additional mail/notifications shouldn't be too excessive. But if it does get to be too annoying, definitely let me know
326. # [06:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie: and thanks, btw
327. # [06:49] <MikeSmith> and congratulations
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330. # [06:49] <MikeSmith> on the spec having reached LC at the W3C
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332. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> I know you don't see it as quite the milestone that others do
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335. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> but it's a milestone nonetheless
336. # [06:50] <Hixie> we reached last call in october 2009
337. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> for some definition of "we", yeah
338. # [06:51] <Hixie> and that actually meant something -- we got to zero outstanding feedback
339. # [06:51] <Hixie> the latest milestone was completely arbitrary and date driven
340. # [06:51] <Hixie> and happened with over 2000 open e-mails and bugs
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344. # [06:51] <Hixie> forgive me for feeling a bit cynical about it
345. # [06:52] <othermaciej> it has marketing value, at the very least; and if we are lucky, may lead to useful feedback from folks who would not give it otherwise
346. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> Hixie: forgive me for feeling a bit positive about it :)
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349. # [06:53] <Hixie> it's rather too late for high-level feedback on most existing features
350. # [06:53] <Hixie> but i certainly don't have a problem getting more feedback
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353. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie: my point in mentioning it here was just that it gives me a reason to express some personal gratitude to you, fwiw
354. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> as the architect of the spec
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356. # [06:58] <Hixie> thanks :-)
357. # [06:58] <Hixie> it is very much a group effort
358. # [06:59] <Hixie> couldn't do it without all of you and the hundreds of other contributors :-)
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360. # [07:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think we owe you, not just for the semi-arbitrary LC milestone, but for the fact that if you hadn't stepped up and put in so much energy, innovation in the Web platform would probably be far behind where it is today
361. # [07:00] <othermaciej> or possibly driven by competing proprietary extensions
362. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> amen to that
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364. # [07:01] <othermaciej> I know a whole host of people have contributed in incredibly ways, and I am grateful to them as well
365. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, the collective time that has gone into this work is phenomenal
366. # [07:01] <othermaciej> also I am a bit tipsy right now
367. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> heh
368. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> I wish I was
369. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> I missed my breakfast beer this morning
370. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> so I'll need to double-up for lunch
371. # [07:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: my pleasure :-)
372. # [07:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: the technical aspects of this stuff are a lot of fun
373. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
374. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> would that the rest of it was as fun
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376. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> and had a big a return of investment
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378. # [07:05] <Hixie> luckily the rest of it is mostly opt-in
379. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: imma shut up about this for now, but I do want to say that anyway, in particular, I think it remains important to get the spec through the process at the W3C, and there have been some significant costs to getting it this far, including for you, and I personally appreciate that you have stuck with it
380. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> (end of speech)
381. # [07:08] <Hixie> hehe
382. # [07:11] <Hixie> i think the patent policy is valuable. i think the rest of the process is somewhat harmful at this stage.
383. # [07:11] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
384. # [07:12] <Hixie> it encourages people to view standards development as something with an end
385. # [07:12] <Hixie> which imho is how we got into this mess in the first place
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388. # [07:13] <Hixie> the web should continuously evolve, it doesn't make sense to freeze it for years at a time
389. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> I think there is large room for improvement in the standards-development and standards-publication process at the W3C
390. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> and I think there is real possibility of significant concrete changes to improve
391. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> *improve it
392. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> but as you well know, it can seem like trying to move a mountain
393. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> or even sometimes like actually moving a mountain a bit, or thinking you had, and then watching the mountain move right back where it was to begin with
394. # [07:17] <zewt> shape-memory mountains
395. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> myth of sisyphus
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398. # [07:25] <othermaciej> I think a stable branch / unstable branch development model an make sense for specs
399. # [07:25] <othermaciej> but, I haven't really seen a good version of it done, so who can say
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401. # [07:27] <Hixie> i don't think stable/unstable is the right split, because nothing is truly stable
402. # [07:27] <Hixie> i mean, the navigation algorithm has been "stable" for 15 years, long before we started speccing it, but we still change it every other week
403. # [07:28] <Hixie> i think it would make sense to have a "full" spec and an "only widely implemented features" spec
404. # [07:28] <Hixie> the only reason i haven't done it already is that we have way too many specs as it is
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409. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> very much agreed about the idea of having an "only widely implemented features" spec
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413. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> if we were to systematically keep the spec annotations up to date, we could at least generate a view with the sections and subsections for the not-widely-implemented features omitted
414. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> which reminds me, I think I still have the following being automatically regenerated each time the spec is pushed to W3C cvs:
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416. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/status.html
417. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> hmm, or maybe not
418. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> I see Undo History is still there
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420. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> oh, actually, that's expected because it's generated from the annotations for the full upstream spec
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456. # [09:32] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the problem with the section annotations (as far as using them to make a spec is concerned) is that they're too coarse
457. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> right
458. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> I know
459. # [09:32] <Hixie> (e.g. think about what adding or removing appcache should do to the navigate algorithm)
460. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> yeah
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485. # [10:34] <jgraham> "W3C also reconfirmed today that, as announced, these specifications are on track to become stable standards in 2014."
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487. # [10:35] <jgraham> Well as long as "stable standards" doesn't imply "has a testsuite", maybe
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531. # [12:20] <zcorpan> ie doesn't support conditional comments in application/xhtml+xml, right? right?
532. # [12:21] <zcorpan> or x-ua-compatible?
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537. # [12:25] <zcorpan> what are the use cases for crossorigin="" again? should it be a content attribute at all?
538. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: didn't it mostly come out of WebGL use cases?
539. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61015#c6
540. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> and https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61015#c7
541. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> "I forgot the mention that the point of the attribute is to let you draw images onto 2D and 3D canvases and read back the results. In the case of 3D canvas, my understanding is that a thumbs up for CORS is going to be required for drawing the image at all."
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543. # [12:39] <zcorpan> if it's just for drawing on canvas, you probably don't want the image in the document at all, much less declaratively
544. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can't say I really understand the use cases
545. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> maybe there was some discussion on the webgl list that will provide some clues
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615. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> heh
616. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> http://gijsvanzon.posterous.com/peter-paul-koch-about-the-future-of-mobile-we
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618. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> great PPK photo
619. # [15:20] <Peter`> haha
620. # [15:23] * jgraham wonders if he should make it his mission in life to get a picture of Hixie that doesn't make him look like a drug-addled-monkey on wikipedia
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632. # [15:34] <erlehmann> jgraham, he looks more like out of a british TV series from the 80ies.
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636. # [15:36] <jgraham> erlehmann: I see you had a bad experience with british TV from the 80s
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646. # [15:44] <asmodai> hsivonen: that highlighting in the source on validator.nu is nicely done btw
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655. # [15:57] <hsivonen> asmodai: thanks
656. # [16:01] <asmodai> mmm, normal lxml.html.tostring(pretty_print=True) is not quite fully pretty printing this HTML 5 stuff.
657. # [16:02] <asmodai> wonder if I need html5lib to get that done
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705. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> Ok, I'm clearly missing something. In Hixie's email about separating script download/parsing/execution, why wouldn't it alert "fail"?
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709. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> Because you have to throw a SyntaxError before you can execute it, if you mean the email I think you mean?
710. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> This is hilarious. It actually works for everything I've tried so far: http://ryanelmquist.com/cgi-bin/xkcdwiki
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712. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Ah, duh.
713. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Heh, cool. I guess it's related to the fact that articles usually start with a summary that might link to more general concepts, and a lot of "baseline" general concepts link to philosophy.
714. # [18:14] <AryehGregor> Seems so.
715. # [18:18] <Workshiva> heh
716. # [18:18] <Workshiva> The sequence quickly reached 'Language' and then spent 11 steps reaching Philosophy
717. # [18:18] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
718. # [18:18] <Workshiva> ... but with a detour into geology, wtf
719. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> Workshiva: Your task is to edit the language article to point directly to philosophy first.
720. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, I wonder how many such changes have happened recently
721. # [18:19] <Workshiva> The penultimate article was Modern Philosophy
722. # [18:19] <Workshiva> That's cheating!
723. # [18:21] <Workshiva> Challenge: Find a 10+ chain that doesn't terminate with Property (philosophy) -> Modern philosophy -> Philosophy
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734. # [18:28] <Philip`> Workshiva: Ryan Giggs
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738. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2011May/0031.html
739. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> "Is Unicode Normalization Form C actually required by HTML5 or is this a validator bug?"
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742. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I realize the spec doesn't cite Form C directly, but I'm wondering what part of the conformance requirements that are directly stated in the spec have the effect of also make Form C a requirement
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744. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> Ugh.
745. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Can we get rid of contenteditable=false? It's a pain in the neck to worry about it all the time.
746. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> (that was rhetorical, I'm pretty sure the answer is "no")
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749. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> Does that let you embed non-editable regions inside a contenteditable?
750. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Yes.
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752. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Which I guess is handy, but it's a huge PITA to make sure all the algorithms leave them alone.
753. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> Corner case, likely to have lots of bugs.
754. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> Just ensuring that you don't climb out of contenteditable regions is comparatively easy.
755. # [18:43] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
756. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> Although the original idea of only allowing designMode on whole documents would be even easier to spec and implement. :)
757. # [18:44] <AryehGregor> But I guess those horrible author people will want these silly features, so spec it we must.
758. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> Those jerks.
759. # [18:46] <jgraham> I hate authors almost as much as I hate generated content
760. # [18:47] * jgraham imagines he won't like shadow DOMs any more than generated content
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762. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> At least you've dealt with shadow DOM for years and years, you just didn't know it.
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764. # [18:48] <jgraham> Because of generated content? Well yeah that's one way to look at it
765. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> No, because of <input>.
766. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> And friends.
767. # [18:49] <jgraham> Oh well that's just magic as far as I'm concerened
768. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> s/magic/shadow DOM/
769. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> s//magic/
770. # [18:50] <jgraham> If that's how we implement it than I don't know about it. So it's magic to me :)
771. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> magicmagicmagic
772. # [18:50] <nimbu> s/magic/typing nightmare/
773. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> I know that we, at least, implement it with some combination of pseudo-shadow-DOM and custom C++ renderers.
774. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> But we're now switching over to pure shadow DOM.
775. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> And it's apparently a big win.
776. # [18:51] <jgraham> I remember Mozilla tried to do that like 10 years ago
777. # [18:51] <jgraham> I dunno what happened
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779. # [18:51] <jgraham> But I certainly recally pure-XBL-forms builds
780. # [18:51] <jgraham> *recall
781. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> XBL was just a bad version of shadow DOM, so there you go.
782. # [18:52] * Ms2ger removed some traces of that earlier this year
783. # [18:52] <jgraham> Well I know that XBL and shadow dom are the same or I wouldn't have mentioned it :)
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785. # [18:53] <asmodai> ye gods, people just don't grasp how ditching HTML versions in favour of feature detection is So Much Nicer(tm).
786. # [18:53] <jgraham> Who wants versions now?
787. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> MS?
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789. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Still?
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791. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> Are they reopening the issue?
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793. # [19:03] * Ms2ger knows nothing, but they seemed a possible suspect
794. # [19:03] <asmodai> Nah, was some topic on a website about last call for HTML 5
795. # [19:04] <asmodai> A relatively high-tech oriented site and there's people seriously wondering wth you would want feature detection over HTML versions.
796. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Maybe they've never written actual websites.
797. # [19:06] <asmodai> That's my best explanation.
798. # [19:06] <Philip`> Got to teach them that web standards aren't like actual standards that software actually implements, where you can meaningfully ask software what standards it implements
799. # [19:07] <asmodai> I mean, I don't mess with website coding on a daily basis, but the entirety of using feature detection just makes so much more sense for a developing and moving platform like the web.
800. # [19:07] <asmodai> Philip`: Yeah, pointed them to explanations of graceful degradation and feature detection.
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806. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> In bytes, http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/editcommands.html is now about 6% the size of http://whatwg.org/c.
807. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> And growing.
808. # [19:09] * AryehGregor isn't sure if that's scary or not
809. # [19:10] * Philip` imagines the complexity of a spec increases non-linearly with its size
810. # [19:10] <Philip`> so the next 6% will be much harder
811. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> In some ways I've found it's gotten easier, because I have a much better understanding of how everything works.
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813. # [19:11] <Philip`> but fortunately /c will find growth even harder so it won't be too fast a moving target
814. # [19:11] * jgraham imagines this document will be merged into /c eventually
815. # [19:11] <jgraham> So you can't win
816. # [19:12] <Philip`> Hmm, yeah, I suppose agglutinating specs is quicker way to seemingly grow
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1084. # [19:29] <asmodai> Anyone happen to know if lxml.html's pretty_print needs html5lib to function properly for pretty printing HTML 5 markup?
1085. # [19:29] <asmodai> Because currently, without any html5lib serialisation, it doesn't seem to properly pretty print.
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1088. # [19:33] <jgraham> asmodai: No idea. I didn't think lxml ever depended on html5lib though, so I don't see why it would
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1091. # [19:35] <asmodai> Well, it doesn't depend on it for its parsing, but you can use it in conjunction.
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1093. # [19:35] <asmodai> I'm just not understanding why it's not pretty printing how I expect it.
1094. # [19:36] <asmodai> Even non-HTML5 elements are not pretty printing.
1095. # [19:36] <asmodai> I doubt that lxml would have a bug, so I must be doing something wrong.
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1107. # [19:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Normalization checking is based on my 2006 expectation that HTML5 would normatively reference C300 in Charmod-Norm
1108. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oh
1109. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> but doesn't it sorta do that indirectly now?
1110. # [19:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: how? AFAICT, my expectation has so far been wrong
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1112. # [19:52] <hsivonen> I also received other feedback about this today
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1114. # [19:52] <hsivonen> now I'm really curious to find out what the W3C i18n folks think about charmod-norm today and why
1115. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I can probably get a quick answer to that by pinging r12a
1116. # [19:53] <hsivonen> I suppose the errors should be downgraded to warnings if there's not going to be a normative trail to a normalization spec
1117. # [19:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: already did
1118. # [19:53] <othermaciej> good morning, folks
1119. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
1120. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> I hear i18n has been asking the CSSWG to require NFC-normalizing selectors in css3-namespaces
1121. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> as far as how, I guess I assumed this was something that the upstream Unicode spec would mandate by now
1122. # [19:54] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I thought they wanted processors to do late normalization
1123. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so that the rest of us don't have to N number of times
1124. # [19:54] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: instead of requiring authors to do early normalization
1125. # [19:54] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: in the CSS case
1126. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> I think you're right
1127. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> I'm still surprised that they want that specced in namespaces
1128. # [19:55] <hsivonen> (FWIW, I'm very, very much against late normalization for identifier matching)
1129. # [19:56] * Parts: takkaria (~takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
1130. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> Make sure to convince your CSSWG representative, then :)
1131. # [19:56] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: there are multiple reps to convince :-/
1132. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> multiple points of failure?
1133. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: おはよう
1134. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> There's no way to make a position: fixed box adjust height (for instance) to fit its contents, right?
1135. # [19:58] <hsivonen> frankly, I get the feeling that the selector normalization debate is an indication that i18n on the Web has been solved
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1137. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> By that logic, a11y has been solved as well
1138. # [19:59] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: good point
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1140. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fwiw, I just (re)pinged r12a (but fact is, dude's pretty busy. used to be he had another full-time i18n person on W3C team to help, but now it's just him, and other i18n people outside of the W3C team have been significantly less active lately)
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1171. # [20:58] * AryehGregor has come to the realization that he needs a higher chair and a higher desk
1172. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> When I sit up straight, my eye level is slightly above the top of my monitor, and my legs have to be uncomfortably squished under me.
1173. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> It can't be good for me.
1174. # [20:59] <aho> i miss my huuuuge desk
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1176. # [20:59] <aho> 2.5m x 1.2m x 0.8m
1177. # [21:00] <aho> it was so lovely
1178. # [21:00] <aho> interestingly... it was stolen
1179. # [21:00] <aho> which is... pretty weird
1180. # [21:01] <aho> mmm
1181. # [21:01] * aho checks ikea
1182. # [21:01] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-ubltynvwjqmspsqq)
1183. # [21:05] <jgraham> aho: Noooo. IKEA is the source of all evil
1184. # [21:06] <aho> they dont have ridiculously large desks anyways :f
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1199. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> So is there any way at all to center something vertically in CSS, say in a position:fixed div that takes up the whole screen?
1200. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> (don't ask why I'm using a position: fixed div that takes up the whole screen)
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1203. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> (or if you want to know: http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/linebreaktest.html)
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1206. # [21:57] <Jon47> aryehgregor - there's definitely a way
1207. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> Namely?
1208. # [21:58] <Jon47> somethign like this perhaps: http://www.emblematiq.com/blog/vertical_align_with_css/assets/03.html
1209. # [22:07] <The_8472> AryehGregor, that is not easy to achieve because it goes against the concept of CSS flows. at least of vertical ones. and the ability to create horizontal flows is... well... not widely supported yet.
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1211. # [22:08] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12101 - do we need to clone getters at all?
1212. # [22:08] <AryehGregor> Jon47, oh, display: table-cell. Big surprise.
1213. # [22:09] <Jon47> lol, sorry :(
1214. # [22:09] <zcorpan> seems annoying if a getter does sync xhr or alert or so
1215. # [22:09] <The_8472> another way would be creating an inline-block and making the line-height as big as the container, then vertical-align the inline block
1216. # [22:10] <The_8472> since lines are a poor man's horizontal flow
1217. # [22:10] <Jon47> whenever I've had to do this in the past I just invoke a jquery method to center the element
1218. # [22:11] <zcorpan> just do <br><br><br><br><br> until it looks about right
1219. # [22:12] <The_8472> table layout!
1220. # [22:15] <Philip`> AryehGregor: You don't need a higher chair and desk, you just need a lower floor
1221. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I'll take that into consideration.
1222. # [22:15] <Philip`> Cutting/digging a hole can't be that hard, surely
1223. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> I suspect I'd need a permit.
1224. # [22:20] <Philip`> It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission
1225. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Easier, but probably not quite as wise when you're talking about the city buildings commission.
1226. # [22:21] <Philip`> Besides, you could cover the hole up with some kind of camouflage when you're not using it to rest your legs in, so nobody would even know
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1228. # [22:28] <nimbu> dbaron: i cant seem to find mochitest in mozilla's latest source code :s the test_animations.html in layout/style/ wont run :/
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1231. # [22:29] <dbaron> nimbu, the stuff in layout/style/test/ and the stuff in testing/mochitest/tests/ gets installed into a separate directory structure
1232. # [22:29] <nimbu> ohh
1233. # [22:29] <nimbu> oops
1234. # [22:29] <dbaron> nimbu, but just combining them so that layout/style/test/ -> .../layout/style/test/ and testing/mochitest/tests/SimpleTest/ -> .../SimpleTest/ should work
1235. # [22:30] <dbaron> nimbu, though there may be some cases where it has / rather than ../../../, which means you'd need to fix that at the top of the *.html in layout/style/test/
1236. # [22:30] <dbaron> nimbu, since they get served with a local web server
1237. # [22:30] <nimbu> i thought I could get away without building mozilla >_>
1238. # [22:30] <dbaron> nimbu, you can, for many of the tests
1239. # [22:30] <nimbu> ah but your API needs mochitest :)
1240. # [22:31] <nimbu> SpeciaPowers™
1241. # [22:31] <nimbu> +l
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1243. # [22:31] <dbaron> nimbu, yeah, the animations test needs SpecialPowers and that API, but the transitions tests don't
1244. # [22:31] <nimbu> oh neet
1245. # [22:31] <nimbu> let me look at that first then.
1246. # [22:33] <dbaron> nimbu, and it looks like I got the path mapping a little wrong (testing/mochitest/tests/ -> .../tests)
1247. # [22:33] <dbaron> nimbu, and also the MochiKit copy in testing/mochitest/ is needed
1248. # [22:33] <dbaron> nimbu, though it's really just 3 files total
1249. # [22:35] <nimbu> thanks dbaron! ah, i will try building this (my first time!) if I fail I will trouble you again.
1250. # [22:35] <dbaron> nimbu, ah, well, you'd only need to build for the animations test, but yeah...
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1260. # [22:59] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: Do you know the height of the object? If so, you can center it using "top:50%;margin-top:-<half-the-height>;".
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1262. # [23:00] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, you mean of the thing I want to center? It's some text, so I suppose I could guess how many lines it will wrap to.
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1264. # [23:06] <hsivonen> http://ryanelmquist.com/cgi-bin/xkcdwiki
1265. # [23:06] * tomaw_ is now known as tomaw
1266. # [23:06] <hsivonen> 15 steps from HTML5
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1284. # [23:39] <jgraham> Like the Radiohead song
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1286. # [23:41] <jgraham> Clearly we should adopt that as the official theme song of HTML5. "How come I end up where I started/ How come I end up where I went wrong / won't take my eye off the ball again" - clearly a reference to W3C abandoning HTML development
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1288. # [23:49] <yuhong> FYI, on ISSUE-129 table-border, look up "HTML 3.0 vs Netscape table border" on Google Groups and particularly read the threads from 1995.
1289. # [23:49] <yuhong> ISSUE-155 table-border, sorry.
1290. # [23:50] <yuhong> For some important history.
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1295. # Session Close: Fri May 27 00:00:00 2011

The end :)