/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 02 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:25] <AlexNRoss> Odd... W3 Validator reports: "Bad valuedofollow for attribute rel on element a: Keyword dofollow is not registered."
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  14. # [00:26] <AlexNRoss> I know it's not in the HTML5 spec, however it is an initiative done by Google that was initiated some time ago; would have thought that it would have been added to the spec already.
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  19. # [00:52] <heycam> *Hixie
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  40. # [02:05] <Hixie> AlexNRoss: did you mean "nofollow"?
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  42. # [02:11] <AlexNRoss> No, I meant "dofollow".
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  44. # [02:11] <Hixie> oh
  45. # [02:11] <Hixie> never heard of it
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  47. # [02:12] <AlexNRoss> http://www.inlineseo.com/dofollowdiver/
  48. # [02:13] <AlexNRoss> It encourages bots to follow the link.
  49. # [02:13] <AlexNRoss> nofollow discourages them. However, they can still go to the link.
  50. # [02:14] <AlexNRoss> It is a SEO initiative that started months ago. It's irritating that it hasn't been implemented into the spec yet; I even submitted it to the spec to be added.
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  53. # [02:15] <eightfold> i'm here for the pseudo-class action
  54. # [02:16] <eightfold> a:visited:after { content: "(you've been here before)"; }
  55. # [02:16] <eightfold> should be valid?
  56. # [02:17] <heycam> jgraham, re your test, I did some similar testing recently for array index properties http://www.w3.org/mid/20110503052431.GN2576@wok.mcc.id.au
  57. # [02:17] <heycam> jgraham, and I think the answer should depend on what comes out of that thread
  58. # [02:18] <heycam> the current way that named/indexed properties are handled sucks a bit
  59. # [02:18] <heycam> it's a little awkward having to look at what own properties already exist on the object, whether they're configurable or not, etc., so that they can be explicitly overwritten
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  61. # [02:19] <heycam> having a [[Get]] & [[Put]] layer over the top of the object seems cleaner and easier to understand
  62. # [02:20] <heycam> I did change the spec to this "looking at what properties exist on the object and having real properties set on the object when collection elements are added" way because TC39 folks were unhappy with the custom [[Get]]/[[Put]] semantics that used to exist in the spec
  63. # [02:20] <heycam> but now they seem to be ok with it
  64. # [02:20] <heycam> (with the Proxy proposal moving forward)
  65. # [02:21] <kevogod> eightfold, Is valid code according to http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator at least
  66. # [02:21] <heycam> jgraham, so to answer a slightly different question: what I want that test to log is true, [object HTMLImageElement], true
  67. # [02:22] <Philip`> AlexNRoss: That page says "DoFollow doesn't technically exist, instead, it is the absense of the "nofollow" tag in a link."
  68. # [02:22] <Philip`> AlexNRoss: Bots follow all links anyway (and sometimes follow things that aren't even links), there's no point explicitly marking any as followable
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  73. # [02:23] <AlexNRoss> Philip`: I'm aware of this, but using "dofollow" is basically putting a big "follow this link" sign right on it.
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  78. # [02:24] <Philip`> AlexNRoss: Since bots have no reason to ever care about such a sign, why put it up?
  79. # [02:25] <AlexNRoss> Philip`: It's an initiative, if people start using it, bots will use it more widely.
  80. # [02:25] <Philip`> Why would bots use it, instead of just following all links (like they do already)?
  81. # [02:25] <AlexNRoss> Philip`: https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=google+dofollow&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-CA:official&client=firefox-a
  82. # [02:26] <Philip`> That doesn't seem to be answering any questions :-p
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  84. # [02:28] <AlexNRoss> Google already acknowledges it. That is what I was showing.
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  86. # [02:28] <AlexNRoss> So, if it becomes official in the spec, more search engines are likely to make use of this.
  87. # [02:28] <Philip`> Where do they acknowledge it?
  88. # [02:28] <AlexNRoss> Read the search findings.
  89. # [02:29] <kevogod> ...
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  91. # [02:29] <AlexNRoss> http://www.verticalmeasures.com/miscellaneous/googles-take-on-nofollow-vs-dofollow-2/
  92. # [02:29] <AlexNRoss> Perfect example.
  93. # [02:30] <Philip`> That's just a load of people using it as a kind of pun for a phrase meaning not-nofollow
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  95. # [02:30] <Philip`> i.e. for <a href>
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  97. # [02:30] <Philip`> which happens to be a perfectly good way of marking up links that bots should follow
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  114. # [03:00] <Hixie> AlexNRoss: nofollow doesn't actually mean "don't follow the link", it means "don't give this link any credibility"
  115. # [03:00] <Hixie> AlexNRoss: i can't find anything that suggests "dofollow" would do anything useful
  116. # [03:08] <erlehmann> nofollow is a pretty bad choice for that kind of attribute value
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  118. # [03:09] <Hixie> no argument from me there
  119. # [03:09] <Hixie> heycam: btw i really think we should reconsider this foo? syntax in WebIDL
  120. # [03:10] <Hixie> heycam: having to put question marks in every IDL block is going to take me weeks
  121. # [03:10] <kevogod> Hixie, To answer eightfold's question, is a:visited:after { content: "(you've been here before)"; } valid? I do not see anything in the spec saying pseudo-elements can work with pseudo-classes.
  122. # [03:10] <Hixie> heycam: can't we do it the other way around? have an exclamation mark for the opposite case?
  123. # [03:10] <Hixie> kevogod: which spec?
  124. # [03:10] <erlehmann> kevogod, history sniffing, do you know it? i believe this will not work.
  125. # [03:11] <kevogod> Hixie, http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/
  126. # [03:11] <Hixie> good lord
  127. # [03:11] <Hixie> CSS2 is over 13 years obsolete
  128. # [03:11] <Hixie> don't look at that
  129. # [03:11] <erlehmann> kevogod, i had that same trick (with a check mark :after :visited links) ruined by the history sniffing countermeasures.
  130. # [03:11] <heycam> Hixie, weeks? of course it is possible to do it the other way around for types that previously had "null" as part of them. I chose this way to avoid having both "?" and "!".
  131. # [03:11] <Hixie> kevogod: :hover::after { content: '<has hover!' } should work fine
  132. # [03:11] <heycam> Hixie, let me take a look at the html spec and determine how many "?"s would really be needed
  133. # [03:11] <erlehmann> kevogod, i believe :visited changes can only affect color.
  134. # [03:12] <Hixie> kevogod: with :link it's a bit more dodgy because of the history thing as erlehmann says
  135. # [03:12] <erlehmann> but i am too lazy looking it up. have to work on a minecraft clone.
  136. # [03:12] <erlehmann> :3
  137. # [03:12] <Hixie> kevogod: but anyway, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors3/ is where you want to go for selectors
  138. # [03:12] <Hixie> heycam: i think i would want it everywhere
  139. # [03:13] <erlehmann> kevogod, oh well. read this <http://dbaron.org/mozilla/visited-privacy>
  140. # [03:13] <heycam> Hixie, there are really no cases where you want to throw if null is passed as an argument where an object is expected?
  141. # [03:13] <Hixie> heycam: since that's what was assumed until now, so all the prose assumes null is always allowed
  142. # [03:13] <Hixie> heycam: i'm sure there's lots of cases. but they already throw.
  143. # [03:13] <heycam> Hixie, I see
  144. # [03:13] <Hixie> i could see slowly one-by-one moving them to using IDL instead of prose to require it
  145. # [03:14] <heycam> which you could do with "!"...
  146. # [03:14] <Hixie> right
  147. # [03:14] <heycam> ok, I'll think it over :)
  148. # [03:14] <dbaron> Hixie, follow the CSS2 link, it's updated
  149. # [03:15] <heycam> Hixie, do you mind to file a bug on it?
  150. # [03:15] <erlehmann> hey, dbaron, nice job ruining our :visited selector ;D
  151. # [03:15] <Hixie> dbaron: the css2 link should point to http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/cover.html :-P
  152. # [03:15] <Hixie> heycam: sure
  153. # [03:15] <heycam> thanks
  154. # [03:16] <kevogod> Hixie, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors3/#gen-content refers to the CSS 2.1 spec so it does not necessarily clarify that ::before or :after can be applied to pseudo-classes.
  155. # [03:17] <Hixie> heycam: reopened http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10640
  156. # [03:18] <heycam> k
  157. # [03:18] <Hixie> heycam: if you do want to give me a diff (against the .../source file) then i probably wouldn't complain either
  158. # [03:18] <Hixie> heycam: (per your comment in there)
  159. # [03:18] <Hixie> heycam: you're one of hte few people i'd trust to not screw something like that up :-)
  160. # [03:18] <heycam> :)
  161. # [03:19] <heycam> if even with prose changes most types still get a "?", then changing to "!" would be better
  162. # [03:19] <kevogod> Nor do I see where it says a pseudo-element can be applied to a pseudo-class in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors3/#pseudo-elements
  163. # [03:19] <heycam> so I will check that first
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  165. # [03:19] <Hixie> there's 183 idl blocks in the spec
  166. # [03:20] <Hixie> kevogod: it's not applied to a pseudo-class
  167. # [03:20] <Hixie> kevogod: every selector can have one pseudo-element
  168. # [03:20] <Hixie> kevogod: and any number of combinators, pseudo-classes, normal classes, ids, attribute selectors, etc
  169. # [03:20] <Hixie> kevogod: (and one type selector per "chain")
  170. # [03:20] <kevogod> OK, that clears it up. Thanks Hixie.
  171. # [03:21] <Hixie> np
  172. # [03:21] <The_8472> too bad we can't style with xpath
  173. # [03:21] * Hixie shudders
  174. # [03:22] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  175. # [03:22] <The_8472> think about it. absolutely position -> not in the flow -> i have to give the container some extra class/id just to give it dimensions
  176. # [03:22] <The_8472> with xpath that would go away
  177. # [03:23] <The_8472> but i guess that would be too expensive to parse
  178. # [03:23] <Hixie> how would you do it with xpath?
  179. # [03:23] <The_8472> ancestor axis
  180. # [03:24] <Hixie> oh well we can add that to selectors too
  181. # [03:24] <Hixie> that's not an xpath vs selectors thing
  182. # [03:24] <Hixie> selectors has intentionally avoided having such a feature because it's a perf nightmare
  183. # [03:24] <The_8472> i thought things are only supposed to go downwards/forwards in CSS
  184. # [03:24] <Hixie> right, i'm just saying that if that's what you're missing, it'd be easier to add it to selectors than replace selectors with xpath
  185. # [03:25] <The_8472> yeah, but that's just one example. i might want to do something with previous siblings instead... sibling axis
  186. # [03:25] <Hixie> my :matches(...#...) proposal handles all of that
  187. # [03:25] <The_8472> m'kay
  188. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> The_8472: Both of those are perfectly compatible with CSS, we've just avoided them for performance reasons, like Hixie said.
  189. # [03:26] <Hixie> a:matches(#+b) matches an a followed by a b sibling
  190. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> The downwards/forwards restriction means you can match selectors against an element *while* parsing a document, using only the information you've already parsed.
  191. # [03:26] <Hixie> a:matches(#>b) matches an a followed by a b child
  192. # [03:26] <The_8472> also, someone slap google for putting w3schools ontop of the results for anything web standard related
  193. # [03:26] <The_8472> their site is horrible
  194. # [03:27] <zewt> at least google finally added an "ignore this site forever" thing, heh
  195. # [03:27] <Hixie> The_8472: when you get a result, click it, hit back, then hit "block this site"
  196. # [03:27] <zewt> been wanting that for years
  197. # [03:27] <The_8472> mhm... but then i have to allow cookies for google
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  199. # [03:27] <zewt> (now if only they'd stop fuzzing searches to death so i have to +prefix +every +word +of +every +search +to +make +it +not +add +typos +for +me)
  200. # [03:27] <TabAtkins> Google is your friend. Do what Google says.
  201. # [03:27] <Hixie> you really should log in to google anyway, it makes your results way better
  202. # [03:28] <Hixie> (disclaimer, tab and i work for google)
  203. # [03:28] <kevogod> Google tricks me into searching while logged in due to their universal log-in.
  204. # [03:29] <kevogod> :)
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  207. # [03:34] <The_8472> Hixie, so... i could use that to select the previous sibling of a specific type too?
  208. # [03:35] <The_8472> ah, yeah. neat
  209. # [03:35] <The_8472> <TabAtkins> The downwards/forwards restriction means you can match selectors against an element *while* parsing a document, using only the information you've already parsed. <- just like C was designed to for a single-pass compiler. and we're all using multi-pass ones today ;)
  210. # [03:36] <The_8472> imo the runtime complexity class is more important than having to wait for the document to finish to load for (some) selectors.
  211. # [03:37] <The_8472> but it doesn't look like one can construct NP-hard statements with that ^^
  212. # [03:37] <Hixie> it's not so much to allow single-pass (you already can't do that with e.g. :last-child)
  213. # [03:38] <Hixie> it's to allow you to style the document without having to do a full crawl of the entire document for each element
  214. # [03:38] <TabAtkins> The_8472: That's why there isn't any inherent restriction against that sort of thing. It's just not possible with currently-defined syntax, is all.
  215. # [03:38] <Hixie> consider *:matches(.foo) { }, for example, which would match any element if the document had a class=foo element in it
  216. # [03:38] <Hixie> for every element, you'd have to walk the entire document (modulo caching)
  217. # [03:39] <The_8472> well, but that is traversing the entire document once
  218. # [03:39] <The_8472> you could try to evaluate all those conditions at once
  219. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> Which isn't really a problem once the entire document is present, but it means that you can't determine if that selector matches until the entire document loads.
  220. # [03:40] <Hixie> or :matches(.foo .bar ~ .baz #) which for every element would require crawling huge parts of the dom and would be very difficult to cache efficiently
  221. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> ...Hixie, that's equivalent to just omitting :matches().
  222. # [03:40] <The_8472> TabAtkins, that should be acceptable i think. fancy javascript stuff doesn't load either until the dom is there
  223. # [03:40] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that's not such a big problem, document load is just like dynamic changes to the dom
  224. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> The_8472: It's not acceptable.
  225. # [03:41] <Hixie> er, i had my example backwards
  226. # [03:41] <Hixie> i meant :matches(# .foo ~ .bar .baz)
  227. # [03:41] <TabAtkins> The_8472: You want to be able to display a page *as* it loads.
  228. # [03:41] <TabAtkins> And preferably as complete as possible, to minimize visual jank.
  229. # [03:41] <The_8472> so just display it based on the the forward-evaluateable rules
  230. # [03:42] <The_8472> you already have to do that, think of nth-last-child
  231. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> Those are *very* rarely used.
  232. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> And they do indeed slow the document down when you use them.
  233. # [03:42] <The_8472> should do that on a separate thread
  234. # [03:42] <Hixie> they don't slow the document down anywhere near as much as :matches() would :-)
  235. # [03:42] <The_8472> snapshot the graph and do some traversing to match the selectors
  236. # [03:43] <TabAtkins> Doesn't help. You're still doing multiple layouts over the same tree. Once a new selector is found to match, you have to throw away most of your progress over the subtree and start again.
  237. # [03:43] <The_8472> of course nobody designed/implemented dom with multithreading in mind :/
  238. # [03:43] <TabAtkins> Because one value changing can percolate down via inheritance, etc.
  239. # [03:43] <The_8472> TabAtkins... same when JS does dynamic stuff on dom ready
  240. # [03:44] <The_8472> simple sites won't need it and complex sites will already be... complex
  241. # [03:44] <The_8472> but yes, it'll certainly not work well with naive implementations
  242. # [03:45] <TabAtkins> The problem is that people don't think of CSS as complex. We'd prefer that the performance impact be small before adding them.
  243. # [03:45] <Hixie> bbl
  244. # [03:45] <TabAtkins> s/naive/all current/
  245. # [03:48] <The_8472> the loops that this combined with calc() might create are far more interesting
  246. # [03:48] <The_8472> mh, nvm
  247. # [03:49] <The_8472> it would just override it
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  452. # [14:32] <karlcow> http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/p/230502/562113.aspx :D
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  505. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I reverted the Overview.html copy in cvs to a version which you should be able to commit over without conflicts
  506. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> but if you do get conflicts, then, yeah, please do feel free to just blow it away and replace it
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  512. # [17:56] <gsnedders> CSSOM View defines offsetTop giving the offset to the body element (in the case where there's no position properties). How do you find the offset of the body element to the viewport? (Or the offset of an arbitrary element to the viewport?)
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  555. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> So Google's finally come out behind microdata instead of RDFa for search results, it seems.
  556. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> Apparently Microsoft and Yahoo! too, if they're backing schema.org, although I notice the whois goes to Google.
  557. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> (they clearly are backing schema.org, they've got blog posts announcing it too)
  558. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> http://schema.org/docs/faq.html#14
  559. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> "Focusing on microdata was a pragmatic decision. Supporting multiple syntaxes makes documentation for webmasters more complex and introduces more overhead in terms of defining new formats. Microformats are concise and easy to understand, but they don't offer an open extensibility mechanism and the reuse of the class tag can cause conflicts with website CSS. RDFa is extensible and very expressive, but the substantial complexity of the language
  560. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> has contributed to slower adoption. Microdata is the most recent well-known standard, created along with HTML5. It strikes a balance between extensibility and simplicity, and is most suitable for building the schema.org. Google and Yahoo! have in the past supported both microformats and RDFa for certain schemas and will continue to support these syntaxes for those schemas. We will also be monitoring the web for RDFa and microformats adoption
  561. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> and if they pick up, we will look into supporting these syntaxes. Also read the section on the data model for more on RDFa."
  562. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> Ack, too long. I do that too often.
  563. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> The discussion group is also a Google Group.
  564. # [19:54] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, didn't hixie tell us that microdata was easier to author and understand than RDFa?
  565. # [19:55] <erlehmann> i wonder what CC is doing now for licensing information, i did my wordpress plugin for GSoC with RDFa.
  566. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> Well, yes, but until recently, Google's rich snippets mostly focused on RDFa, or at least as much as microdata.
  567. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> Awesome, a PAM update on Ubuntu a couple of days ago broke cron and at. How many systems will that wind up completely wrecking, I wonder?
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  574. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  575. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> In the execCommand() use-case, is there really any notable difference between <div align=right> and <div style="text-align: right">?
  576. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> The only obvious differences I can think of involve things like fixed-width block descendants, which you can't really get in a normal contenteditable setup.
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  578. # [20:29] <Ms2ger`> Tables?
  579. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> There's no way to make those with execCommand() either, actually, that I've seen. Although you'd think there should be.
  580. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Seems like a pretty obvious feature to add.
  581. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> I guess I'll spec it as text-align across the board for now, and change it if any problems arise.
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  590. # [21:04] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, it is ubuntu. whoever runs that should know that updates break stuff, even deliberately, see unity.
  591. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> That's a major version upgrade, not a security update.
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  593. # [21:07] <zewt> heh, i stopped using ubuntu after yet another major update totally hosed my system ... don't think I've ever had one go well
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  596. # [21:22] <Philip`> I always mix up "microformats" and "microdata" when reading
  597. # [21:22] <Philip`> Probably would have been good if they'd had distinct prefixes
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  601. # [21:31] <Hixie> "microdata" wasn't really ever intended to be a brand
  602. # [21:32] <Hixie> that one just kinda got away from me
  603. # [21:32] <Hixie> it was just meant to be descriptive, the same way that the html spec uses "microsyntax"
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  627. # [22:39] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
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  633. # [22:52] <linclark> can itemprop take multiple values?
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  641. # [23:15] <The_8472> mhhh... do border images support gradients instead of url() images?
  642. # [23:18] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  643. # [23:21] <The_8472> i guess not
  644. # [23:23] <The_8472> well, the css3 border spec and the css3 images spec contradict each other
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  646. # [23:24] <The_8472> i see , they use the css2.1 definition
  647. # [23:25] * Parts: shichuan (~Shi_Chuan@cm182.eta124.maxonline.com.sg)
  648. # [23:34] <Hixie> linclark: "The itemprop attribute, if specified, must have a value that is an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens that are case-sensitive, representing the names of the name-value pairs that it adds. The attribute's value must have at least one token."
  649. # [23:34] <Hixie> linclark: in other words, "yes"
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  651. # [23:35] <linclark> Hixie: thanks!
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  657. # Session Close: Fri Jun 03 00:00:00 2011

The end :)