/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 09 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [01:36] <roc> hsivonen: epic blog post! Thanks a lot
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  34. # [01:45] <jamesr> mpilgrim: try unmatched surrogate pairs
  35. # [01:45] <jamesr> mpilgrim: and other non-valid utf16
  36. # [01:46] <jamesr> ah that was already suggested
  37. # [01:46] <jamesr> high ascii can also sometimes be trouble
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  39. # [01:47] <zewt> because there's no such thing? :P
  40. # [01:47] <jamesr> extended ascii?
  41. # [01:47] <jamesr> whatever it's called
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  43. # [01:50] <zewt> "high ascii" is what people tended to call "some 8-bit character set" back before people knew what character sets were--in javascript I'm not sure what it would mean (since strings are wide, not 8-bit)
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  61. # [02:24] <jamesr> zewt: i mean any characters in the 128..255 range
  62. # [02:25] <Hixie> should i spec what happens to the cursor and selection when you reset a text input or textarea's value?
  63. # [02:25] <Hixie> and if so, should i spec a particular behaviour, or should i say it's a platform-specific reset?
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  67. # [02:30] <Hixie> can someone on windows load up some browsers, go to http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ click "download", quickly click on the "1234567" text in the text box under "Rendered view", and then tell me what happens to the text selection and cursor position after two seconds?
  68. # [02:30] <Hixie> on mac, all the browsers i've been able to test move the cursor to the end and remove the selection (if any)
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  70. # [02:30] <Hixie> if anyone is on a non-mac non-windows os that would be useful too
  71. # [02:31] <Hixie> (i changed it to 5 seconds)
  72. # [02:34] <zewt> holy gross, abp does some nasty stuff to the DOM in chrome
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  75. # [02:34] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/erk.png ... heh
  76. # [02:36] <zewt> does the same for me in FF4/O11 in Windows (both of them leave the cursor at the end but scroll the text all the way to the left, which is pretty strange)
  77. # [02:36] <zewt> (same as what you described)
  78. # [02:37] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  79. # [02:37] <zewt> same in chrome 12 (after turning off that mess)
  80. # [02:37] <Hixie> any chance of testing IE?
  81. # [02:37] <Hixie> that's the one i haven't tested on any platform yet
  82. # [02:37] <zewt> need to load a VM, will take a minute
  83. # [02:38] <Hixie> you need a VM to load IE on windows? what kind of weird setup do you have over there :-)
  84. # [02:38] <zewt> xp64
  85. # [02:39] <zewt> ie9 only supports versions of windows which require lots of memory to run, which makes them fantastically wasteful in VMs
  86. # [02:39] <Hixie> funky
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  88. # [02:39] <zewt> xp runs in half a gig; i need like a gig and a half for win7
  89. # [02:39] <Hixie> jeez
  90. # [02:40] <zewt> same
  91. # [02:41] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  92. # [02:41] <Hixie> i guess i'll just spec it
  93. # [02:42] <zewt> pretty oddball that they all mismatch the scroll position and the cursor
  94. # [02:43] <Hixie> yeah that's what makes me thing it might be needed for interop somehow and why it needs speccing
  95. # [02:44] <Hixie> if you've still got some browsers up can you try it again? i changed it to a textarea
  96. # [02:44] <Hixie> looks like it's the same on mac
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  99. # [02:47] <Hixie> woot, i am now up to march in dealing with feedback of a non-feature-request nature
  100. # [02:47] <zewt> uh, ie9 seems to be caching the old one through reloads
  101. # [02:48] <Hixie> weird
  102. # [02:48] <zewt> same in the others, but i'm still seeing type=text in ie9
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  104. # [02:48] <Hixie> if you have sent feedback (not counting feedback asking for new features, but including bugs) that you send before march, and i haven't replied to it, please let me know
  105. # [02:49] <zewt> gah chrome's "copy text in the address bar you didn't ask for" thing drives me crazy (tried to copy the hostname to tcpdump and I got a http:// prefix that I didn't ask for)
  106. # [02:49] <Hixie> yeah man that drives me batty
  107. # [02:49] <zewt> software trying to be more clever than it actually is
  108. # [02:49] <Hixie> ok, i'm outta here
  109. # [02:49] <Hixie> bbl
  110. # [02:49] <zewt> later
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  112. # [02:51] <zewt> same in IE9
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  141. # [04:15] <karlcow> http://insidesearch.blogspot.com/2011/06/authorship-markup-and-web-search.html
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  164. # [05:14] <mpilgrim> Philip`: good call. it took me 2 hours, but i finally found a place in webkit's indexeddb implementation that fails on "\ufffe"
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  169. # [05:30] <yuhong> I submitted and posted some comments on "CSS 2.1 becomes W3C Recommendation"/
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  171. # [05:30] <yuhong> http://slashdot.org/~yuhong
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  193. # [06:50] <Hixie> what's with bjoern quoting my name? weird
  194. # [06:52] <jamesr> as in "Ian Hickson"?
  195. # [06:52] <Hixie> as in "Hixie"
  196. # [06:53] <jamesr> the so-called "Hixie" says
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  198. # [06:53] <Hixie> pretty much
  199. # [07:03] <zewt> i've been tempted to put "timeless" in quotes in several mails, heh
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  201. # [07:07] <jamesr> so "Hixie", "timeless", and "fantasai" walk into a bar...
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  211. # [07:48] <paul_irish> anyone have a rough idea when innerHTML began to be specified?
  212. # [07:51] <paul_irish> which.. i imagine just means the general parsing algo
  213. # [07:52] <Hixie> 2008? 2009?
  214. # [07:52] <Hixie> 2009 i think
  215. # [07:52] <Hixie> it was in january, whatever year it was
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  217. # [07:53] <paul_irish> k. good enough for me. i can work with that. thx
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  219. # [07:57] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/#innerhtml0
  220. # [07:57] <paul_irish> :D
  221. # [07:57] <Hixie> holy cow, that's far before what i expected
  222. # [07:57] <zcorpan> it wasn't specified in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2006-01-01/ so sometime between those dates
  223. # [07:57] <Hixie> must have been 2007 that we specified the parser then
  224. # [07:57] <Hixie> wow
  225. # [07:57] <Hixie> time flies
  226. # [07:58] <paul_irish> yeah.. http://blog.whatwg.org/2007/03 is when html5lib 0.9 came out
  227. # [07:58] <Hixie> can anyone think of any reason i shouldn't specify window.status as a readonly replaceable property on Window that always returns the empty string?
  228. # [08:00] <zcorpan> do sites expect empty string (rather than undefined)?
  229. # [08:00] <Hixie> every browser seems to return empty string
  230. # [08:00] <Hixie> and i know i've written code that broke because i forgot that window.status existed
  231. # [08:00] <zcorpan> ah
  232. # [08:01] <zcorpan> is it repleaceable in browsers too?
  233. # [08:01] <Hixie> i thought it was, and it is in chrome, but it appears not to be in firefox
  234. # [08:01] <Hixie> firefox seems to always return '' regardless
  235. # [08:01] <zcorpan> i guess replaceable makes sense
  236. # [08:02] <Hixie> wait
  237. # [08:02] <Hixie> i'm wrong
  238. # [08:02] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  239. # [08:02] <Hixie> window.status = {}; window.status returns the _string_ "[object Object]"
  240. # [08:03] <Hixie> in chrome & opera
  241. # [08:03] <zcorpan> yeah
  242. # [08:04] <zcorpan> which means there's a setter i guess
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  245. # [08:05] <zcorpan> opera seems to allow sites to set the status by default (but has a pref to disable it)
  246. # [08:07] <zcorpan> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hybi-thewebsocketprotocol-08
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  248. # [08:08] <Hixie> anyone got IE to test with? I don't have IE at home
  249. # [08:10] <zcorpan> hold on
  250. # [08:10] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244)
  251. # [08:10] <Hixie> what's the latest version of web notifications? the editor's draft seems to be more outdated than the TR/ page?
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  255. # [08:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: ie9 seems to always return the empty string
  256. # [08:11] <Hixie> k
  257. # [08:12] <zcorpan> unless i do var status
  258. # [08:12] <Hixie> sure, var is another issue altogether
  259. # [08:12] <Hixie> but it doesn't throw?
  260. # [08:12] <Hixie> so i guess a setter that does nothing is the way to go
  261. # [08:12] <zcorpan> doesn't throw
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  263. # [08:13] <zcorpan> same in ie quirks
  264. # [08:13] <zcorpan> and ie7compat
  265. # [08:13] <Hixie> yeah if gecko and ie match we're good here
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  271. # [08:38] <Hixie> huh
  272. # [08:38] * Hixie notices a revert request that he'd somehow missed
  273. # [08:39] <Hixie> good thing i happened to browse the archives
  274. # [08:39] * Hixie tries to work out what he's supposed to be reverting
  275. # [08:39] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  276. # [08:41] <Hixie> aha, something to make validators not catch inaccessible content
  277. # [08:41] <Hixie> the mind boggles
  278. # [08:46] <zcorpan> what's accessible is an opinion
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  284. # [09:01] <danbri> foolip, when I paste entire source of http://schema.org/TVSeries into http://foolip.org/microdatajs/live/ then try the tabs, the entire page goes blank
  285. # [09:01] <danbri> (though there doesn't actually seem to be any MD in it)
  286. # [09:02] <danbri> ... if I cut from <div id="mainContent"> and below, the UI still works and I see { "items": [] }
  287. # [09:04] <jgraham> Hixie: I think the TR page probably is the latest web notifications draft. That spec seems to have stalled
  288. # [09:05] <Hixie> ah
  289. # [09:06] * Joins: Onderhond (~woef@79.232-136-217.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be)
  290. # [09:06] <jgraham> Also, isn't timeless' name just "tim eless"? That would rather seem to exclude him from a "three people who go by pseudonyms walk into a bar" joke
  291. # [09:07] <Hixie> um, no
  292. # [09:07] <jgraham> Oh
  293. # [09:07] <Hixie> his name is josh soref :-)
  294. # [09:07] <jgraham> Ah. Well he's back in the joke then
  295. # [09:07] <jgraham> Dunno where I got the other idea from
  296. # [09:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is ==date-or-time-content== used anywhere? http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions
  297. # [09:08] <jgraham> (especially since I recognise his real name now you mention it)
  298. # [09:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: also what's with the claims that the formats differ from the spec?
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  302. # [09:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: looks like it's dead code
  303. # [09:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: there used to be some element (<time>?) that accepted date or times in element content
  304. # [09:14] <Hixie> yeah <time> did that for aw hile
  305. # [09:15] <Hixie> <meter> and <progress> also had similar magic with numbers
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  307. # [09:21] <zcorpan> removed it
  308. # [09:21] <zcorpan> that page still needs stuff filled in
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  311. # [09:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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  313. # [09:42] <jamesr> Hixie: i don't thikn we should have args in HTML spec
  314. # [09:42] <jamesr> it's not interoperable
  315. # [09:43] <Hixie> really?
  316. # [09:43] <Hixie> who doesn't do it?
  317. # [09:44] <jamesr> IEs don't, iirc
  318. # [09:44] <jamesr> and mozilla provides another argument
  319. # [09:44] <jamesr> to the callback
  320. # [09:44] <Hixie> well if it's just IE then they can get with the programme
  321. # [09:44] <jamesr> before the user specified argument(s)
  322. # [09:44] <Hixie> really?
  323. # [09:45] <jamesr> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Window.setTimeout
  324. # [09:45] <jamesr> see "lateness"
  325. # [09:45] <Hixie> window.setTimeout(function(a,b,c) { alert('a=' + a + '\nb=' + b + '\nc=' + c) }, 1000, 1, 2, 3);
  326. # [09:45] <Hixie> ...alerts "a=1 b=2 c=3"
  327. # [09:45] <Hixie> in firefox
  328. # [09:45] <jamesr> what's arguments.length?
  329. # [09:46] <Hixie> and opera
  330. # [09:46] <Hixie> and chrome
  331. # [09:46] <Hixie> seems interoperable to me!
  332. # [09:47] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461) (Quit: Leaving.)
  333. # [09:47] <Hixie> 3 in opera and chrome, 4 in firefox
  334. # [09:47] <jamesr> so they stick it after the user-supplied args?
  335. # [09:47] <Hixie> yup
  336. # [09:48] <zcorpan> should we implement lateness in opera and chrome?
  337. # [09:49] <jamesr> why? can't you do it yourself in script?
  338. # [09:49] <zcorpan> i guess the script could do new Date yeah
  339. # [09:49] <jamesr> grab date.now() when setting, grab it when the callback runs, subtract the delay you specified...
  340. # [09:49] <Hixie> i have heard pretty much zero authoring interest in this argument
  341. # [09:49] <Hixie> to the point that i never had even heard of it :-)
  342. # [09:50] <Hixie> jamesr: that doesn't work if the machine was suspended in between
  343. # [09:50] <jamesr> well nobody uses arguments
  344. # [09:50] <Hixie> i use them all the time :-)
  345. # [09:50] <jamesr> Hixie: depends on how the implementation handles that
  346. # [09:50] <jamesr> nobody who authors and has to care about IE does :)
  347. # [09:50] <Hixie> does the monotonic clock from web perf increment when timeouts don't?
  348. # [09:50] <Hixie> people who care about IE don't use a _lot_ of the stuff in this spec
  349. # [09:50] <jamesr> the monotonic clock from web perf isn't actually specified
  350. # [09:50] <zcorpan> jamesr: you could use lateness without using arguments
  351. # [09:50] <jamesr> so nobody knows wtf it does
  352. # [09:51] <Hixie> well ok then
  353. # [09:51] <Hixie> someone should get on that
  354. # [09:51] <Hixie> :-P
  355. # [09:51] * Hixie calls "not it"
  356. # [09:51] <jamesr> yeah it's just microsoft guys
  357. # [09:51] <jamesr> who keep bothering me to put a "implementations should not ..." section into a normative section
  358. # [09:51] <jamesr> i explained that wouldn't mean anything and their response was "we're fine with that"
  359. # [09:52] <zewt> normative shoulds make me want to hit things
  360. # [09:52] <zewt> at least, after dealing with the XMPP specs where half the spec is shoulds
  361. # [09:52] <Hixie> jamesr: well hopefully you don't have an actual "should" in a non-normative section
  362. # [09:52] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.202.39)
  363. # [09:53] <jamesr> i haven't put the sentence anywhere cos it's a dumb requirement
  364. # [09:53] <jamesr> it'll end up being implementation advice in a note
  365. # [09:53] <Hixie> aah
  366. # [09:53] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  367. # [09:53] <Hixie> push back against bad ideas
  368. # [09:53] <Hixie> don't give in!
  369. # [09:54] <Hixie> ok i should go sleep
  370. # [09:54] <Hixie> nn
  371. # [09:55] <KevinMarks> is a normative Should a passive aggressive spec?
  372. # [09:57] <jamesr> i can see that you are satisfying the minimum required requirements of this standard, but do you really want to just be a minimally compliant implementation?
  373. # [09:57] <jamesr> Stan over there is meeting 37 individual requirements...
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  389. # [10:39] <kost-bebix> Good morning everyone! So can anyone please review me with speed testing of making HTMLTokenizer a new-style object?
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  394. # [10:40] <kost-bebix> code: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/402862/
  395. # [10:40] <kost-bebix> file index.html: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ (it's big)
  396. # [10:41] <kost-bebix> results are ~40 seconds everywhere (old-style, new-style, pypy)
  397. # [10:41] <kost-bebix> so maybe my code is wrong or what
  398. # [10:44] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  399. # [10:51] <jgraham> kost-bebix: In general I am happy to make new-style classes. Unless it makes a huge difference weird version-specific-CPython-specific performance hacks at the expense of best practices seem wrong
  400. # [10:52] * jgraham afk for a bit
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  405. # [11:05] <kost-bebix> jgraham: 40 seconds for new-style vs 37 sec. for old-style
  406. # [11:06] <kost-bebix> jgraham: but for new-style I will write topic about "how to make safe wysiwyg ckeditor with html5lib" and won't be a shame to show it's code))
  407. # [11:07] <kost-bebix> jgraham: also, what about fixing html5lib in default? It's currently broken a bit. Should I investigate that or could you please do that?
  408. # [11:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: Broken in what way?
  409. # [11:08] <gsnedders> kost-bebix even
  410. # [11:08] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: even?
  411. # [11:08] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: Broken in what way?
  412. # [11:08] <kost-bebix> oh, sorry, those 40 and 37 secs were for pypy, whong virtualenv))
  413. # [11:09] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: something like this http://paste.pocoo.org/show/402835/
  414. # [11:09] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: but even not for tests
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  418. # [11:11] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: here's fresh error http://paste.pocoo.org/show/403315/ for this test-code
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  425. # [11:19] <kost-bebix> gsnedders: so will you look at that please?
  426. # [11:20] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  427. # [11:21] <gsnedders> kost-bebix: Maybe.
  428. # [11:21] * gsnedders is rather busy at the moment
  429. # [11:21] <kost-bebix> oh, ok
  430. # [11:22] <gsnedders> The soonest I'm likely to do anything is while travelling next Wednesday.
  431. # [11:22] <kost-bebix> ok, I'll look at that
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  436. # [11:28] <mhausenblas> any microdata people around?
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  438. # [11:29] * mhausenblas might benefit from your help re https://github.com/mhausenblas/schema-org-rdf/blob/master/tools/schema-mr-gateway/microdata-parser.py
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  440. # [11:29] <mhausenblas> (using edsu's MD parser https://github.com/edsu/microdata)
  441. # [11:30] <kost-bebix> ok, seems I fixed that
  442. # [11:30] <kost-bebix> how do I do pull request in google code?)
  443. # [11:30] <kost-bebix> http://code.google.com/r/kost88-html5lib-fixes/source/checkout
  444. # [11:31] * Joins: benschwarz (~benschwar@59.167.185.148)
  445. # [11:31] <jgraham> kost-bebix: No idea.
  446. # [11:31] <kost-bebix> jgraham: maybe I should just send patches?
  447. # [11:31] <mhausenblas> kost-bebix good question (re pull request in Google code) - if you find out pls let me know as well ;)
  448. # [11:31] <jgraham> kost-bebix: That should work
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  451. # [11:32] <jgraham> If the patches look good you can benefit from our hippie commit-access policy
  452. # [11:32] <kost-bebix> jgraham: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/403324/
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  454. # [11:33] <kost-bebix> jgraham: I should run tests now, I guess
  455. # [11:33] <kost-bebix> to make sure nothing is broken)
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  457. # [11:34] <kost-bebix> jgraham: fail) super(HTMLTokenizer, self).__init__(object) should be fixed to super(HTMLTokenizer, self).__init__()
  458. # [11:34] <mhausenblas> jgraham, you're not into MD, are you?
  459. # [11:35] <jgraham> kost-bebix: Attaching patches to a bug is best I guess
  460. # [11:35] <jgraham> mhausenblas: A little, but possibly not enough to review code and do real work at the same time :)
  461. # [11:36] <mhausenblas> he he, fair enough
  462. # [11:36] <kost-bebix> jgraham: ok, I'll go and create issues for that
  463. # [11:36] * mhausenblas trying to figure on his own - would be cool to learn what chaps to ask around here ...
  464. # [11:37] <gsnedders> I'd say I could look, but then jgraham would probably start finding more work for me. :)
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  466. # [11:39] <mhausenblas> gsnedders, please look :P
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  468. # [11:39] <mhausenblas> srsly, got a sec, gsnedders?
  469. # [11:39] * mhausenblas won't tell jgraham
  470. # [11:39] <gsnedders> Disclaimer: it's been a while since I've looked at MD closely
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  472. # [11:39] <mhausenblas> he he, fair enough - same for me ;)
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  474. # [11:40] <mhausenblas> so, in https://github.com/mhausenblas/schema-org-rdf/blob/master/tools/schema-mr-gateway/microdata-parser.py I'm trying to dump the items
  475. # [11:40] <mhausenblas> now, what I don't really get is the cascading
  476. # [11:41] <mhausenblas> that is, how items can have other nested items
  477. # [11:41] * mhausenblas should maybe read the spec more closely? ... but I'm a slacker, hence
  478. # [11:42] <gsnedders> mhausenblas: The other item is defined by the nesting, pretty much, IIRC
  479. # [11:42] <mhausenblas> yes, that I get - but what is the relationship? ;)
  480. # [11:42] <mhausenblas> or is there none
  481. # [11:42] <mhausenblas> you see what I'm trying to understand?
  482. # [11:43] <mhausenblas> I have (in my own weird pretty print style):
  483. # [11:43] <mhausenblas> ITEM (http://example.org/event123) of type (http://schema.org/Event)
  484. # [11:43] <mhausenblas> and
  485. # [11:45] <mhausenblas> ITEM (anonymous) of type (http://schema.org/AggregateOffer)
  486. # [11:45] <mhausenblas> how is http://example.org/event123 related to the second item?
  487. # [11:45] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  488. # [11:45] <gsnedders> Depends upon the itemprop
  489. # [11:45] * Quits: Ephemera (~Ephemera@61.41.24.114) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  490. # [11:45] * mhausenblas bangs head on desk
  491. # [11:45] <mhausenblas> sure thing - it's 'offers'
  492. # [11:45] <mhausenblas> sry for the stupid question
  493. # [11:45] <mhausenblas> there you go - you did help me gsnedders ;)
  494. # [11:45] <mhausenblas> case close - let's move on
  495. # [11:45] <gsnedders> I KNOW STUFF.
  496. # [11:45] <mhausenblas> thx, over and out
  497. # [11:45] <gsnedders> :D
  498. # [11:45] <mhausenblas> well, that I wouldn't say, but ...
  499. # [11:45] <mhausenblas> you're a nice guy, at last ;)
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  501. # [11:45] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  502. # [11:46] <kost-bebix> that's for broken default: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=184
  503. # [11:46] <zcorpan> gsnedders is just making stuff up
  504. # [11:46] <mhausenblas> btw, as I have some 3 more min for chit chatting - how's it going, gsnedders - still up in Scandinavia or what are you after these days?
  505. # [11:46] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Pretty much. But if it makes people think I know stuff…
  506. # [11:47] <gsnedders> mhausenblas: Studying in Glasgow, working remotely for Opera still (though part-time now)
  507. # [11:47] <mhausenblas> right
  508. # [11:47] <mhausenblas> well, sounds good - KUTGW!
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  511. # [11:49] <zcorpan> KUTGSAWYAD
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  513. # [11:51] <kost-bebix> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=185 for new-style HTMLTokenizer
  514. # [11:51] <kost-bebix> god, bitbucket + pull requests would be so much easier))
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  517. # [11:52] <gsnedders> zcorpan: ?
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  519. # [12:03] <karlcow> KITTY
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  521. # [12:17] <jgraham> zcorpan: What's accessible might well be a measurable quantity. But no one much seems interested in doing the measurements
  522. # [12:17] * jgraham just saw that in the logs
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  525. # [12:29] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  526. # [12:30] <karlcow> https://github.com/edsu/microdata/blob/master/microdata.py
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  530. # [12:37] <karlcow> http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/2011/06/our-metadata-overlords-and-that.html
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  536. # [14:47] * Disconnected
  537. # [14:48] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  538. # [14:48] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  539. # [14:48] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  540. # [14:48] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  541. # [14:48] <smaug____> http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html from Mozilla and Opera is still surprisingly valid
  542. # [14:48] <hsivonen> krijnh: is back. watch you tongue, folks :-)
  543. # [14:49] <smaug____> hsivonen: my link was public :)
  544. # [14:49] <roc> when you've got W3C leadership insisting they never did anything wrong, then clearly lessons from past mistakes have not been learned, and that reduces trust
  545. # [14:49] <karlcow> hsivonen: taboo? in your own illusions :) That's the point of such an organization. Organizations which tie people who are likely minded are sects, not fora for discussing, debating, etc.
  546. # [14:50] <karlcow> roc: someone is a member of TAG and someone can't have different ideas ? One neuron brain? Role vs personal opinions.
  547. # [14:50] <karlcow> my goodness… sectarism.
  548. # [14:50] <hsivonen> karlcow: I have a feeling I got frowns when I last talked about disjoint communities but [citation-needed] and I don't remember what the context was
  549. # [14:52] <roc> karlcow: so you think it's a good thing to have people on the TAG who are wrong about important issues. OK. I don't.
  550. # [14:53] <roc> he's not just wrong about opinions or strategy, he's wrong about facts, as smaug pointed out
  551. # [14:54] <karlcow> I think it is a good thing to have people with diverse opinions. I do not think there is only one side of a story. I think people can have a role and opinions (it is called compromise). [not saying that I agree with him, but that is totally unrelated to his tag position]
  552. # [14:57] <jgraham> Diverse opinions can be good. Being in denial of facts isn't
  553. # [14:59] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  554. # [15:00] <karlcow> Will one day computing engineers be human… really. It mesmerizes me as something strange. We are all of us humans. yes we lie, we are emotional, have notions of truth, recollection of memories. etc. He might be wrong, he might be right, etc. That's part of the game. Now putting him, his role and the organization in a single entity is quite frightening. it's why I say sectarism. Ministry of thoughts.
  555. # [15:00] <karlcow> anyway, reality catches me up. I have a meeting.
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  567. # [15:50] <Workshiva> karlcow: As the saying goes, you're allowed your own opinions but you are not allowed your own facts
  568. # [15:51] <Workshiva> ... and I was one screen away from the bottom of the conversation
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  579. # [16:14] <karlcow> Workshiva: people have different recollections. Basically people do not see the same facts because of their own moral values, history, memory recollections, etc. Once again not taking side here.
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  581. # [16:16] <hsivonen> karlcow: I think you are taking relativism pretty far
  582. # [16:16] <Workshiva> Misremembering something doesn't change what actually happened...
  583. # [16:16] <karlcow> hsivonen: possibly.
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  586. # [16:17] <jgraham> Wander too far down this path and you end up with holocaust deniers and all sorts of nastiness
  587. # [16:17] * jgraham wonders if that implicity invokes Godwin
  588. # [16:17] <karlcow> we reached godwin
  589. # [16:17] <Workshiva> scientologists :P
  590. # [16:17] <Workshiva> What is true is what you, yourself, decide is true for you.
  591. # [16:18] <karlcow> Workshiva: it's how science is working. Collectively aggreeing on a framework and working in that framework to make assertions.
  592. # [16:19] <karlcow> newton, simple relativity, general relativiy, etc.
  593. # [16:19] <karlcow> when the model doesn't work to answer the questions we have to solve, we change the model.
  594. # [16:20] <jgraham> I think there is a great deal that is interesting about the philosophy of Science but I'm not sure I get any of it from that statement
  595. # [16:20] <Workshiva> karlcow: The difference is that science describes reality, it doesn't define it
  596. # [16:20] * karlcow has to admit he is influenced by Kuhn
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  598. # [16:21] <karlcow> Worshiva: yup agreed whatever reality is ;)
  599. # [16:22] <karlcow> I was referring to this Kuhn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn
  600. # [16:23] <Workshiva> I didn't know there were other famous Kuhns
  601. # [16:24] <Workshiva> Anyhoo
  602. # [16:24] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuhn
  603. # [16:25] <asmodai> cute: http://www.touchtrigonometry.org/
  604. # [16:25] <Workshiva> A Nobel Prize winner, I guess that counts as famous
  605. # [16:26] <karlcow> asmodai: nice!
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  609. # [16:43] <asmodai> You see the flash dumping happening all over
  610. # [16:43] <asmodai> interesting to see the uptake
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  666. # [19:08] <Hixie> is marcos around?
  667. # [19:09] <Hixie> ah, he's in #webapps
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  688. # [19:56] <jcranmer> out of curiosity
  689. # [19:56] <Hixie> yes?
  690. # [19:56] <jcranmer> if I do <a>foo<span>bar</a>baz</span>
  691. # [19:56] <jcranmer> what happens?
  692. # [19:56] <Hixie> per spec?
  693. # [19:57] <jcranmer> <!DOCTYPE html>, so yes
  694. # [19:57] <Hixie> the doctype doesn't affect this i think
  695. # [19:57] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%20%3Ca%3Efoo%3Cspan%3Ebar%3C%2Fa%3Ebaz%3C%2Fspan%3E
  696. # [19:57] <Hixie> test it in webkit or firefox, they implement the spec
  697. # [19:57] <jcranmer> i.e., do both bar and baz get styled with the span and foo and bar get the link?
  698. # [19:58] <Hixie> the resulting document has one <span> and it contains just "bar"
  699. # [19:58] <Hixie> note that <a> is particularly special here
  700. # [19:58] <Hixie> and you'll get different results if you replace it with <b>, for example
  701. # [19:59] <Hixie> also different results if you replace the <span> with <div>, say
  702. # [19:59] <zcorpan> Hixie: there's no difference between <a> and <b> here
  703. # [19:59] <jcranmer> damn
  704. # [20:00] <Hixie> oh right, <a>'s specialness is when you nest <a>s
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  707. # [20:00] <zcorpan> jcranmer: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/the-end.html#an-introduction-to-error-handling-and-strange-cases-in-the-parser
  708. # [20:00] <Hixie> you'll get different results if you change <a> to <Span> and <Span> to <div>?
  709. # [20:00] <jcranmer> oh well
  710. # [20:01] <jcranmer> well, I need the <a> to stay an <a>
  711. # [20:01] <Hixie> anyway my point is just that that general pattern can give various results depending on the element in question
  712. # [20:01] <Hixie> what's the context of your question?
  713. # [20:01] <jcranmer> basically, I'm trying to refactor this code2html utility I'm writing
  714. # [20:02] <jcranmer> so I get syntax highlighting as regions and link objects also as regions
  715. # [20:02] <Hixie> ah
  716. # [20:02] <jcranmer> I'm not sure I care about partially overlapping syntax highlighting/linkificaiton
  717. # [20:02] <Hixie> yeah you definitely don't want to rely on weird parsing behaviours here
  718. # [20:03] <Hixie> they're invalid for a reason :-)
  719. # [20:03] <jcranmer> since that would be somebody's bug
  720. # [20:03] <Hixie> the best bet when doing docs with two overlapping ranges is to wrap one set of ranges normally, and then do the second set at the fine-grained level by rewrapping just the text nodes for the second set
  721. # [20:04] <jcranmer> but links can be entirely within sytanx regions (i.e., an http in a comment) or syntax regions can be entirely within links (i.e., quallified namespaces)
  722. # [20:04] <Hixie> e.g. if you have hel(lo[ pret)ty wor]ld
  723. # [20:04] <jcranmer> I'm not sure I have a case where a link and syntax region partially overlap...
  724. # [20:04] <Hixie> you'd do "hel<span>lo pret</span> world" first
  725. # [20:04] <Hixie> and then (using <b>s for the sake of clarity:
  726. # [20:05] <Hixie> "hel<span>lo<b> pret</b></span><b> wor</b>ld" second
  727. # [20:05] <jcranmer> I've noticed s/span/b/g changes the resulting dom to do the logically right thing for my use case
  728. # [20:05] <Hixie> if you have more than two sets of ranges, you're best off just dealing with ranges individually, as in:
  729. # [20:06] <Hixie> "hel<span class="a">lo</span><span class="a b"> pret</span><span class="b"> wor</span>ld"
  730. # [20:06] <Hixie> hth
  731. # [20:06] <jcranmer> I was just wondering if the corner cases would have worked even if I didn't look for them
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  751. # [20:38] <scor> is there a way to have multiple tokens in an @itemtype? @itemprop seems to allow it, @itemtype doesn't it seems...
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  756. # [20:56] <Hixie> scor: what would it mean?
  757. # [20:56] <Hixie> scor: or rather, how would you know which vocabulary's terms you were using?
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  761. # [21:13] <mpilgrim> ok, i have a bunch of IndexedDB properties that are defined "readonly" per their WebIDL
  762. # [21:13] <mpilgrim> what should happen when I try to set those properties from JavaScript?
  763. # [21:13] <zcorpan> mpilgrim: my favorite
  764. # [21:13] <mpilgrim> "An object that implements the interface on which a read only attribute is defined will not allow assignment to that attribute. It is language binding specific whether assignment is simply disallowed by the language, ignored or an exception is thrown."
  765. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> Fail silently, and throw in strict mode
  766. # [21:13] <zcorpan> what Ms2ger said
  767. # [21:13] <mpilgrim> which browsers support strict mode?
  768. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> Fx
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  770. # [21:14] <Ms2ger> Chrome too, I think?
  771. # [21:14] <gsnedders> Chrome doesn't
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  773. # [21:14] <gsnedders> WebKit nightlies do
  774. # [21:14] <gsnedders> IE10 Preview does
  775. # [21:15] <mpilgrim> wow, chrome is behind IE in something?
  776. # [21:15] <mpilgrim> we live in interesting times
  777. # [21:15] <mpilgrim> i have a webkit nightly
  778. # [21:15] <mpilgrim> how would I check for strict mode?
  779. # [21:16] <Ms2ger> <script>"use strict"; try { global = "" } catch(e) { // In strict mode }</script>
  780. # [21:16] <gsnedders> or function is_strict() { return !this; }
  781. # [21:16] <gsnedders> Uh, with "use strict";
  782. # [21:17] * Ms2ger never understood that
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  784. # [21:17] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1024
  785. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: calling a function as foo() passes the global object as the this argument in non-strict, and null in strict mode.
  786. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> So, Chrome fails your test and passes mine, apparently
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  788. # [21:19] <zcorpan> you mean chrome has a half implementation of a feature? how surprising
  789. # [21:19] * gsnedders facepalms
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  791. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> Also, passe zcorpan's
  792. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> +s
  793. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> Speaking of strict mode, should "onload = function() {..}" be allowed?
  794. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: onload should already be defined, so it's not a new variable reference.
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  796. # [21:22] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: (i.e., "onload" is already a defined variable)
  797. # [21:22] <zcorpan> another editor will save websockets
  798. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> Then I seem to recall Chrome being wrong
  799. # [21:23] <zcorpan> gsnedders: onload is a property, not a variable, right?
  800. # [21:23] <gsnedders> zcorpan: It's a property on the global object
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  804. # [21:24] <gsnedders> zcorpan: variables just define properties on the global object in the global scope
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  806. # [21:27] <scor> Hixie: imagine I want to say that a item is both an Article and a NewsArticle (using schema.org as example here)
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  808. # [21:29] <TabAtkins_> mpilgrim: We're implementing Strict, we just haven't gotten it quite shippable yet.
  809. # [21:30] <mpilgrim> yeah, that's fine
  810. # [21:31] <mpilgrim> i'll make do with non-strict mode
  811. # [21:31] <mpilgrim> so the proper behavior in non-strict mode is to fail silently when setting a readonly property?
  812. # [21:31] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i hope the impl is complete when it ships
  813. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> Yes
  814. # [21:32] <mpilgrim> ok, i can test that
  815. # [21:32] <mpilgrim> thanks
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  819. # [21:32] <gsnedders> readonly? That *so* ES3. [[Writable]]: false.
  820. # [21:32] <gsnedders> :P
  821. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> It's rather WebIDL ;)
  822. # [21:33] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: webidl doesn't have readonly properties!
  823. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> It has attributes
  824. # [21:34] <gsnedders> WebIDL doesn't define how to fail when setting it, though. That depends upon the language binding, which defines it by reference to ECMA262.
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  829. # [21:57] <Hixie> scor: aren't all NewsArticles Articles?
  830. # [21:57] <scor> Hixie: yes, in this case it's true, but imagine they were not
  831. # [21:58] <Hixie> can you give an example that actually represents the case you're thinking of? :-)
  832. # [21:58] <scor> or imagine a consumer expect Article, and the page uses NewsArticle
  833. # [21:58] <Hixie> fix the consumer. or the page.
  834. # [21:58] <scor> and the consumer is not smart enough to infer that they are the same type
  835. # [21:59] <Hixie> it's not a matter of being smart, it's a matter of how the vocabularies are defined
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  837. # [21:59] <Hixie> if NewsArticle says that it's an Article, it's an Article
  838. # [21:59] <scor> ok, maybe a different example where you would want to use totally different vocabularies
  839. # [21:59] <Hixie> and the consumer should implement the spec
  840. # [21:59] <Hixie> can you give a concrete example? it's hard to argue hypotheticals
  841. # [21:59] <scor> Hixie: where would it say that NewsArticle is also Article?
  842. # [21:59] <scor> in the vocabulary?
  843. # [21:59] <Hixie> in the spec for NewsArticle
  844. # [21:59] <scor> oh, it's possible to model such relationships?
  845. # [22:00] <scor> note that I would not want to hard code this logic in my app, but rather use what ever hierarchy is defined in the vocab
  846. # [22:00] <Hixie> You just write, in the spec, "User agents must treat all items that are NewsArticles as also being Articles"
  847. # [22:00] <Hixie> or whatever it is you want to say
  848. # [22:01] <scor> Hixie: ok, but I write this in HTML, how do I write this in a format that my app can understand
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  851. # [22:02] <scor> ok, here is an example taken from the spec for @itemprop: <h1 itemprop="name http://example.com/fn">Hedral</h1>
  852. # [22:02] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  853. # [22:02] <Hixie> what's your app?
  854. # [22:02] <Hixie> i'm confused
  855. # [22:03] <Hixie> the app has to implement these vocabularies, right? so wherever you implement the vocabulary, you make it support the spec that defines the vocab
  856. # [22:03] <scor> could I write <h1 itemprop="http://vocab.org/TypeA http://example.com/SomeTypeB">
  857. # [22:03] <Hixie> not per the current spec, no
  858. # [22:03] <scor> sorry let me rewrite the ex.
  859. # [22:03] <Hixie> but i don't know why you would want to do that
  860. # [22:03] <Hixie> or what it would mean
  861. # [22:03] <Hixie> (processing-wise)
  862. # [22:03] <scor> <div itemtype="http://vocab.org/TypeA http://example.com/SomeTypeB">
  863. # [22:04] <scor> (ignore the hierarchy thing for a min ;) )
  864. # [22:04] <scor> only look at the last example
  865. # [22:04] <Hixie> ok
  866. # [22:05] <scor> I defined two type, e.g. this could be for two different vocabulary, schema.org and Facebook for the second
  867. # [22:05] <scor> does that make more sense
  868. # [22:05] <Hixie> what doesn't make sense is why you would make one item be two things
  869. # [22:05] <Hixie> it would be like having one element be both a <p> and an <ol>
  870. # [22:06] <scor> well, because Facebook and schema.org will not expect/understand the same types
  871. # [22:06] <scor> they each expect to find their own type
  872. # [22:06] <Hixie> so have two items
  873. # [22:06] <scor> otherwise they ignore you
  874. # [22:06] <Hixie> if you make them the same item, how would you know what the properties meant?
  875. # [22:06] <Hixie> say you had:
  876. # [22:06] <scor> but I do not want to repeat HTML content!
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  880. # [22:07] <Hixie> <div itemscope itemtype="http://example.com/school http://example.com/socioeconomic"> <span itemprop=class>A</span> </div>
  881. # [22:07] <Hixie> and suppose the http://example.com/school vocabulary defines itemprop=class as defining the name of a classroom
  882. # [22:07] <Hixie> and http://example.com/socioeconomic defines itemprop=class as defining the name of a socioeconomic level (poor, rich, etc)
  883. # [22:07] <Hixie> what does the page mean?
  884. # [22:09] <scor> well, you would not use that ambigious token in itemprop, but the full URLs instead
  885. # [22:10] <scor> note you would be dealing with two different domain names
  886. # [22:11] <scor> let me wip up the complete example
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  888. # [22:12] <scor> let's use this one:
  889. # [22:12] <scor> <div itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/School http://facebook.com/School">
  890. # [22:12] <scor> <span itemprop="http://schema.org/classname http://facebook.com/class">A</span>
  891. # [22:12] <scor> </div>
  892. # [22:13] <scor> Hixie: now, @itemprop is valid I believe, but is @itemtype valid like that?
  893. # [22:13] <Hixie> you're not answering the question... what if the two vocabularies both defined "class", and you use it? you can't just say "don't do that". We have to define what it means if someone does it anyway.
  894. # [22:13] <scor> I agree, so the @itemtype is limited to one for avoiding that problem, right?
  895. # [22:13] <scor> one token
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  897. # [22:17] <Hixie> yes
  898. # [22:20] <scor> thanks Hixie, that's what I wanted to know - sorry for the somewhat lengthy/confusing questions :)
  899. # [22:20] <zcorpan> anyone know how filesaver is supposed to work? surely the user has to choose a folder at some point? http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4650
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  901. # [22:23] <zcorpan> scor: you can do http://foolip.org/microdatajs/live/?html=%3Cdiv%20itemscope%20itemtype%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org%2FSchool%22%20itemref%3Da%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20itemscope%20itemtype%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Ffacebook.com%2FSchool%22%20itemref%3Da%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cspan%20id%3Da%20itemprop%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org%2Fclassname%20http%3A%2F%2Ffacebook.com%2Fclass%22%3EA%3C%2Fspan%3E
  902. # [22:24] <scor> zcorpan: oh, thanks! looks like complicated markup though, but I guess that's the only way
  903. # [22:25] <zcorpan> though i guess the vocabularies wouldn't allow itemprops from other vocabularies like that
  904. # [22:25] <scor> zcorpan: why not?
  905. # [22:25] <scor> are they required to exist at all anyway?
  906. # [22:26] <zcorpan> well they could allow it, but i think in general vocabularies would ban anything "unknown"
  907. # [22:26] <scor> afaik, you could even make up your own property names
  908. # [22:26] <scor> zcorpan: interesting, but the document would still validate at the HTML5 level right?
  909. # [22:26] <zcorpan> yeah
  910. # [22:27] <scor> it's just if whatever application checks that all property name exist and refuse to work if it does not find the property in the vocab
  911. # [22:27] <scor> but there is no built validation like that
  912. # [22:27] <scor> in HTML5 microdata parsing
  913. # [22:29] <zcorpan> foolip: feature request: save feature for short urls :)
  914. # [22:29] <scor> lol
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  946. # [23:57] <roc> foolip: ping?
  947. # Session Close: Fri Jun 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)