/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-16 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 16 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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5. # [00:07] <Hixie> idea for a new css selector (based on some stuff i've talked about before):
6. # [00:08] <Hixie> a new set of attribute selectors where the first character of the attribute is punctuation, e.g.:
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8. # [00:08] <Hixie> input[.value=foo], or video[.readyState=2]
9. # [00:09] <Hixie> it works just like regular attribute selectors, except the value comes from the IDL attribute with the given name
10. # [00:09] <Hixie> and to specify which IDL attributes this works with, we have a new annotation on the attributes in the IDL
11. # [00:09] <Hixie> e.g. [ExposeToCSS] readonly attribute DOMString value;
12. # [00:09] <smaug____> [ExposeToCSS] would work with only some types, right?
13. # [00:10] <Hixie> yeah
14. # [00:10] <Hixie> probably just DOMString, long, maybe boolean if we define it as presence vs absence
15. # [00:11] <Hixie> we could also have a combinator that works via attributes that return elements
16. # [00:11] <smaug____> and the use case is?
17. # [00:11] <Hixie> e.g. foo /bar/ baz, where "bar" is an attribute, so e.g. img /usemap/ map selects the map of the img
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19. # [00:11] <Hixie> many use cases, e.g. selecting input elements based on their current vlaue
20. # [00:12] <Hixie> value
21. # [00:12] <Hixie> if we had this, we could replace :checked with [.checked], and wouldn't need to introduce new ones each time we have something else to select on
22. # [00:12] <Dashiva> I like the sound of that
23. # [00:12] <Hixie> e.g. instead of video:paused we can have video[.paused]
24. # [00:12] <smaug____> yeah, sounds good
25. # [00:13] <Hixie> the combinator is useful for e.g. selecting the control for a label, e.g. label:active /control/ input { border: thick; }
26. # [00:13] <hober> hmm
27. # [00:13] <smaug____> but might be tricky to implement
28. # [00:13] <Hixie> yeah definitely tricky to implement!
29. # [00:13] <hober> could be worth posting to www-style
30. # [00:14] <roc> it's going to be a nightmare to implement
31. # [00:14] <Hixie> ((fwiw, i've suggested both [.foo] and /foo/ before, the new insight here is using an IDL annotation to opt-in attributes to make this work)
32. # [00:14] <roc> depending on which attributes you apply it to
33. # [00:14] <smaug____> actually, I'd assume it would be very hard to make it work *fast*
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35. # [00:15] <Hixie> well like roc says, it depends a lot on what we expose
36. # [00:15] <roc> the code for "compute me the value of this function" is often orders of magnitude easier than "signal me whenever the computed value of this function would change"
37. # [00:15] * shepazutoo is now known as shepazu
38. # [00:15] <Hixie> indeed
39. # [00:19] <Hixie> is there any reason other than "history" for using NodeList vs HTMLCollection?
40. # [00:20] <Hixie> i guess nodelist can't be accessed by name
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42. # [00:20] <Hixie> uh oh, domcore has stuff that html currently has and they're getting out of sync
43. # [00:21] <Hixie> i hope the domcore stuff is just a straight copy so it can be updated easily once i get around to nuking the stuff in html
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47. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Is there any reason to have generic syntax like video[.paused] if it will only work for an extremely small segment of attributes anyway?
48. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> It only makes sense if it's defined to work for a pretty broad class of attributes.
49. # [00:26] <Hixie> why would it be "extremely small"?
50. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> Because CSS selectors are very performance-sensitive, and it would be hard to make most IDL attributes work here.
51. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> Implementations do stuff like intern strings so they don't have to do strcmp() when evaluating CSS selectors. Something like checking JS attributes would presumably be hard if you include lots of them.
52. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> It might make sense even with only a small set of attributes, though.
53. # [00:28] <Hixie> why is it ok with content attributes but not IDL attributes?
54. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> Because then JS and CSS knowledge would be more transferrable.
55. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Because content attributes have a static value and are all updated through the same codepaths, IDL attributes can return something different every time you get them and they're updated through tons of different codepaths.
56. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Or they might not even have a value stored in any specific place at all.
57. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> They might secretly trigger code that's specific to that particular attribute.
58. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Like, I dunno, querying some video-playing framework to determine if a video is paused or not, which might involve a whole bunch of function calls.
59. # [00:30] <Hixie> well it depends on the IDL attribute
60. # [00:30] <Hixie> most IDL attributes just reflect the content attributes, so it seems they'd be equivalent
61. # [00:30] <Hixie> HTMLMediaElement.paused doesn't update dynamically, it's just a settabel boolean
62. # [00:30] <Hixie> settable
63. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> If browsers are okay with keeping two copies of everything, yeah. Maybe they already do that, in fact.
64. # [00:31] <Hixie> you wouldn't need to keep two copies of everything, only of the attributes that you've found the css references
65. # [00:31] <Hixie> and actually you wouldn't need to keep two copies in most cases, if they're the same
66. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Not for regular DOMString, no, but the common case for other types is they're not the same.
67. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Like all non-DOMString types.
68. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Many URLs aren't absolute, either.
69. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Enums are probably going to be exactly the same less often than not.
70. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> But it would be useful to be able to query the actual enum state, so you don't have to worry about case variations and defaults and so on.
71. # [00:33] <Hixie> <a href=""> already has to be checked against the history, I don't see why img[.src] (say) would be any worse, perf wise
72. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> In fact, CSS 2.1 has some wording about attribute default values for exactly this reason.
73. # [00:33] <Philip`> For IDL attributes that reflect content attributes, I assume you could just use the content attribute CSS selectors - the only interesting cases for the new selector are the non-reflective ones
74. # [00:33] <Hixie> Philip`: the idl attributes tend to do some processing that might be interesting
75. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Philip`, not if the attribute reflects interestingly, like enumerated attributes.
76. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> Or numbers, if you're worried you might have weirdly-formatted numbers.
77. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> Not booleans or regular DOMStrings, no.
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86. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I accidentally sent a mail to whatwg a little while ago from the wrong address. Can you approve it?
87. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> (if you don't answer within a few minutes, I'll just resend it, but someone I CC'd already responded on-list, so it would be confusing)
88. # [00:52] <Hixie> yeah one sec
89. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> Hixie, have you approved it yet? I have to leave in a few seconds and want to make sure the post is out before I do.
90. # [00:58] <Hixie> sorry, couple of things bumped it down my stack
91. # [00:58] <Hixie> getting to it now
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93. # [00:58] <Hixie> moderator says there's no pending requests
94. # [00:58] <Hixie> looks like i have invalid addresses set to bounce permanently
95. # [00:58] <Hixie> i think i set that because of the high volume of spam
96. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> Okay, I'll resend it.
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98. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> Gmail could really use smarter list handling.
99. # [01:01] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
100. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> Like: 1) Allowing you to easily reply to multiple posts in a thread in one e-mail (would be good for some private conversations too). 2) Flagging posts that were made off-list so you don't accidentally reply on-list (hi TabAtkins!). 3) Warning you if you try sending from the wrong address.
101. # [01:02] <Hixie> why do you think i use pine for this stuff :-)
102. # [01:02] <Hixie> my mail routes through gmail but i use pine as my frontend
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104. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> Did you ever give Gmail's interface a real try, or were you used to pine already and didn't bother?
105. # [01:03] <Hixie> i use gmail for all my work mail
106. # [01:03] <AryehGregor> My e-mail UI experience went from AOL to Gmail and that's it, I never tried anything else.
107. # [01:03] <Hixie> where work = google internal, not, you know, my actual work...
108. # [01:03] <AryehGregor> Gmail works well enough for me, but it would be nice if I could easily script it.
109. # [01:09] <Hixie> can anyone recall where we dicussed the idea of making Window have a prototype chain on which we put the named items?
110. # [01:09] <Hixie> i can't find either bug or mail about it
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112. # [01:13] <zewt> gmail works well for most things, but yeah, random little things missing (which aren't so little when you need them)
113. # [01:13] <Hixie> hober: i assume the copyright on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12409 is a mistake? :-)
114. # [01:13] <zewt> complete lack of sorting is pretty bad
115. # [01:14] <zewt> actually the biggest is the inability to view non-list mails, eg. things with no labels; they just fall into the abyss of "all mail"
116. # [01:15] <hober> Hixie: yes, indeed
117. # [01:15] <hober> Hixie: forgot to strip that out before copying and pasting the proposal into the textarea
118. # [01:15] <hober> Hixie: I can comment there to that effect if you'd like
119. # [01:16] <Hixie> nah, no worries
120. # [01:16] <Hixie> i was just amused :-)
121. # [01:16] <hober> yeah, i noticed that like 2 minutes after hitting submit
122. # [01:16] <hober> and was sadface
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134. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I think that's on our list of "possible Selectors 4" things.
135. # [01:40] <Hixie> they've been on the list of possible things since 2002 or before
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137. # [01:40] <Hixie> but the interesting new thing is the idl annotations
138. # [01:41] <Hixie> btw i've started http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Dialogs to collect research on pages that use dialog boxes
139. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> Ooh, kk.
140. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> There's unescaped html on that page, btw.
141. # [01:42] <Hixie> i hate wiki syntax
142. # [01:42] <Hixie> it can't make its mind up about whether it's HTML or not
143. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
144. # [01:42] <Hixie> (thanks, fixed)
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146. # [01:43] <hober> Hixie: ahh, cool. I've been looking into dialogs lately, to determine what sort of CP (if any) to write for ISSUE-133
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148. # [01:43] <Hixie> that's all we need, language design by issue process :-)
149. # [01:43] <hober> heh
150. # [01:44] <Hixie> i plan to be doing something along those lines in the coming weeks
151. # [01:44] <Hixie> (though certainly not by the deadline for that issue)
152. # [01:44] <hober> I'm leaning toward writing a zero-edit CP that says basically "there are valid use cases, but the other CP's proposal is woefully underspecified and broken, and to do it right would require a lot of work. let's punt until html.next"
153. # [01:45] <Hixie> haha
154. # [01:45] * Hixie reads said CP
155. # [01:45] <Hixie> you should totally just not post a CCP and let the chairs say this one is gold
156. # [01:45] <Hixie> that would just be funny
157. # [01:45] <boogyman> are you talking to yourself Ian?
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159. # [01:46] <Hixie> hober != Hixie
160. # [01:46] <hober> If I don't do said CP, I'll do a proper one with a decent design, which would require a time extension
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162. # [01:47] <Hixie> hober: i expect we can probably do something pretty simple that hits the majority of use cases
163. # [01:47] <Hixie> hober: but first i need to figure out what the use cases are :-)
164. # [01:47] <Hixie> (hence the wiki page)
165. # [01:48] <hober> Hixie: yeah, I'll be contributing to the wiki page
166. # [01:48] <Hixie> basically whenever i come across a dialog i'll take a screenshot and paste the url or markup used to the page
167. # [01:48] <hober> Hixie: I think stev'e content attribute is totally broken
168. # [01:48] <Hixie> i kinda just want to see what the chairs would do if something that broken were to be the only proposal
169. # [01:49] <hober> Hixie: there would be a call for consensus on the existing cp, and all the usual suspects would object in the poll because the cp is so bad
170. # [01:49] <Hixie> they don't do polls if there's just one cp
171. # [01:50] <Hixie> and honestly i'm not sure how many of the usual suspects would notice the call
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173. # [01:50] <hober> ok, so s/in the poll/on public-html/
174. # [01:50] <hober> fair enough
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279. # [05:12] <Hixie> AryehGregor: dude how do you link to a category page in a wikimedia page?
280. # [05:13] <Hixie> just a regular link, not the thing that makes the category appear at the bottom
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291. # [06:09] <Hixie> wtf
292. # [06:09] <Hixie> how did that spam get through
293. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: hey, you pinged me about something last week. I'm guessing you probably don't remember now why
294. # [06:11] <Hixie> i would have sent you mail or cc'ed you on the relevant bug or whatnot
295. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> ok
296. # [06:11] <Hixie> when i ping people these days it's just to see if i can get some quick reaction rather than letting it sit another 3 months for the next time i see the reply :-)
297. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> hai
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299. # [06:15] <Hixie> well it looks like this spam lost its payload, so i'm just going to ignore it. i still don't understand how it got through the list's filters though.
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302. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> Hixie: does it have multiple From addresses?
303. # [06:27] <Hixie> dunno, i deleted it
304. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> OK
305. # [06:27] <Hixie> didn't see multiple From addresses, but it could have
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307. # [06:28] * MikeSmith checks and sees that it doesn't
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340. # [08:30] <mhausenblas> foolip around?
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367. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> «In validation proper, or in "DTD based validation", as opposite to the mixed-technology heuristic checker called HTML5 mode of the validator»
368. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2011Jun/0047.html
369. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I updated the W3C validator backends today with latest from upstream
370. # [10:02] <mhausenblas> ping foolip
371. # [10:03] <foolip> pong mhausenblas
372. # [10:03] <mhausenblas> heya
373. # [10:03] <foolip> what's up?
374. # [10:03] * mhausenblas understands that you're quite active in the Schema.org discussion group
375. # [10:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: cool. thanks. Let's see how that affect meta name and link rel bug reports
376. # [10:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: let me guess. the email above is from Jukka.
377. # [10:03] <mhausenblas> now, I was wondering if you'd like to do some joint work in Schema.org evangelism, foolip?
378. # [10:03] * hsivonen opens the link
379. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> heh
380. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: bingo
381. # [10:04] <foolip> mhausenblas, well, I spam them with bug I find a lot :)
382. # [10:04] <mhausenblas> that is a good start, foolip
383. # [10:04] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my heuristics are working!
384. # [10:04] <mhausenblas> but I was thinking rather long-termish
385. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> :)
386. # [10:04] <foolip> mhausenblas, do you represent schema.org in some way, or just a fanboy/flamerboy like me?
387. # [10:04] <mhausenblas> the latter - and behind Schema.RDFS.org :P
388. # [10:05] <mhausenblas> well fanboy rather than flamerboy
389. # [10:05] * mhausenblas has made his position clear in http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/towards-networked-data/ ... methinks ;)
390. # [10:06] <mhausenblas> so, anyways, I know your good work from the MF WG were we, well at least partially happened both to work, foolip and hence I was wondering ...
391. # [10:06] <foolip> now why haven't I seen that post before? perhaps it's not been mentioned on twitter together with "schema.org" :)
392. # [10:06] <mhausenblas> :P
393. # [10:06] <foolip> what kind of thing did you have in mind?
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395. # [10:06] <mhausenblas> well, we're using https://github.com/mhausenblas/schema-org-rdf
396. # [10:06] <foolip> I just toy around with this stuff in my spare time
397. # [10:07] <mhausenblas> and me currently developing http://omnidator.appspot.com/
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400. # [10:07] <mhausenblas> which happens to exploit Schema.org terms for anything2anything
401. # [10:07] <foolip> ok
402. # [10:07] <mhausenblas> anyways, I was wondering if you'd like to chime in on the above github repo
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404. # [10:08] <mhausenblas> there are two new sections (directories) called examples and mappings
405. # [10:09] <mhausenblas> the former is for collecting examples of Schema.org in various formats the latter for collecting vocab mappings (DBpedia, FOAF, etc - Schema.org terms)
406. # [10:09] <mhausenblas> but what I find most thrilling is the challenges and opportunities re extending Schema.org terms
407. # [10:09] <mhausenblas> and I think there we can assist the sponsors
408. # [10:09] <mhausenblas> what do ya think foolip?
409. # [10:10] <foolip> It's not entirely clear to me what the goal of the project is, except having a bit of fun or course
410. # [10:10] <hsivonen> how can it be so hard to make a proper email client
411. # [10:10] <hsivonen> webmail or native
412. # [10:10] <hsivonen> maybe I should just give up and make all my data are belong to google
413. # [10:10] <mhausenblas> foolip of which project? schema.org or schema.rdfs.org? :D
414. # [10:10] <foolip> I've never seriously toyed with RDF, so looking at mappings isn't something I'd really be helpful in I think
415. # [10:11] <mhausenblas> ok, fair enough
416. # [10:11] <foolip> mhausenblas, whichever you're asking my opinion on :)
417. # [10:11] <mhausenblas> he he
418. # [10:11] <foolip> as for examples, are you not just copying them from schema.org?
419. # [10:11] <mhausenblas> I rather thought of helping people with the extensions part
420. # [10:11] <mhausenblas> re examples, yeah, sorta reformulating them in CSV, JSON, RDFa, etc.
421. # [10:11] <foolip> I haven't quite understood how that's supposed to work, is it documented on schema.org?
422. # [10:11] <mhausenblas> what?
423. # [10:11] <mhausenblas> the examples?
424. # [10:12] <foolip> extensions
425. # [10:12] <mhausenblas> oh
426. # [10:12] <mhausenblas> yes
427. # [10:12] <mhausenblas> lemme check
428. # [10:12] <mhausenblas> http://schema.org/docs/extension.html
429. # [10:12] <foolip> that looks fairly icky :)
430. # [10:13] <mhausenblas> the problem AFAICT (looking at the Schema.org Google group) is that most people that wanna extend are not exactly experts in vocab design
431. # [10:13] <foolip> how could you ever transition an extension into official-dom?
432. # [10:13] <mhausenblas> dunno. ask the sponsors :P
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434. # [10:14] <foolip> For example, http://schema.org/Person/Engineer/ElectricalEngineer would become http://schema.org/ElectricalEngineer if incorporated into the official vocab
435. # [10:14] <mhausenblas> mhm
436. # [10:14] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You could try something like WebDriver for automating boring manual tests although there are risks
437. # [10:14] <mhausenblas> but it's also about properties and their domain/ranges
438. # [10:14] <mhausenblas> there is a hell of a lot one can get wrong
439. # [10:15] <foolip> seems to me that schema.org is too big to begin with, encouraging people to extend it even more seems... unwarranted
440. # [10:15] <mhausenblas> so, gotta run soon but if you like to chime in, lemme know - either clone https://github.com/mhausenblas/schema-org-rdf and send in pull request or I can add you to the repo
441. # [10:15] <mhausenblas> dunno what you mean w/ 'too big to begin with'
442. # [10:15] <foolip> ok, I'll have a look at the examples tonight when I'm not supposed to be working :)
443. # [10:15] <mhausenblas> it's there
444. # [10:16] <mhausenblas> ahm, there are no examples yet ;)
445. # [10:16] <mhausenblas> nor mappings
446. # [10:16] <mhausenblas> jsut started y'day
447. # [10:16] <mhausenblas> OK, I see, you gotta work as well - have fun foolip :D
448. # [10:16] <foolip> I mean that they seem to have a way bigger vocabulary than they can probably make any good use of for search results
449. # [10:16] <mhausenblas> 288 class and 182 props? yes, true
450. # [10:17] <foolip> which means that a lot of it probably isn't terribly well thought out and will just end up being cruft forever
451. # [10:17] * mhausenblas sorta agrees
452. # [10:17] <foolip> so, I'm still on the fence about fanboy/flamerboy :)
453. # [10:17] <mhausenblas> I guess they'll assess what people really use and to which extent
454. # [10:17] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2011Jun/0043.html makes it look like someone has managed to sell SEO to Illinois state. Yay for tax dollars.
455. # [10:17] <mhausenblas> come on - that's a great thing, no doubt
456. # [10:18] <foolip> I don't know, I can totally imagine people going to great lengths to use lots and very specific parts this vocabulary as a SEO incantation even though it has no effect whatsoever on search results
457. # [10:18] <mhausenblas> btw, my current favourite script is curl http://omnidator.appspot.com/mdpretty?url=$1
458. # [10:18] * Quits: AlexNRoss (~AleossIRC@unaffiliated/aleoss) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
459. # [10:19] <foolip> so it will be used incorrectly, and they will be unable to start using it for search results.
460. # [10:19] <mhausenblas> that might well be, but think beyond SEO
461. # [10:19] <mhausenblas> that the future will tell
462. # [10:19] <foolip> if people use these things in completely the wrong way, it breaks it for everything, not just SEO, right?
463. # [10:20] <mhausenblas> well, that's why I think guidance is top priority
464. # [10:20] <mhausenblas> you do a great job already there foolip and it's good to see that guha personally is very responsive
465. # [10:20] <foolip> I guess we'll see
466. # [10:20] <mhausenblas> yup
467. # [10:20] <mhausenblas> guess we both have to earn our bread now
468. # [10:21] <foolip> right
469. # [10:21] <foolip> talk to you later :)
470. # [10:21] * mhausenblas wondering, can you say that in English - in Austria we use this idiom
471. # [10:21] <mhausenblas> cya
472. # [10:21] <foolip> you can say it in Swedish at least :)
473. # [10:21] <mhausenblas> and thanks for your time foolip - much appreciated
474. # [10:21] <foolip> likewise!
475. # [10:21] <mhausenblas> he he, good to learn that
476. # [10:21] <mhausenblas> what would be the Swedish phrase?
477. # [10:22] <foolip> "att tjäna sitt dagliga bröd"
478. # [10:22] <jgraham> (ir is pretty much something you can say in English, although I can't think of the exact idiom right now)
479. # [10:22] <mhausenblas> tx
480. # [10:22] <mhausenblas> he he, tx to jgraham as well ;)
481. # [10:24] * mhausenblas thinks 'to earn one's crust' might be the right thing to say
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483. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in the interest of closing out http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=842 (srcdoc attribute on iframe in HTML5 does not validate), is it OK with you if I add srcdoc to the schema, but with the datatype set to string for now, and add a FIXME noting that the real datatype checking for it needs to be added later?
484. # [10:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, but please also add it to the "not implemented in browsers yet" warnings
485. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm pretty sure you added it there already
486. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> so I think that's covered
487. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> but I'll doublecheck
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492. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> hmm, incidentally, I don't see how srcdoc would work in XML documents
493. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> without violating XML well-formedness constraints
494. # [10:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, you escape what XML requires but the payload is HTML
495. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> ah
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498. # [10:49] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: Blurg that's what the spec says, but why doesn't it parse as xml in an xml context (like innerhtml)?
499. # [10:49] <david_carlisle> channel topic. I suppose...
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501. # [10:50] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
502. # [10:50] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: In my opinion, it was a mistake to make innerHTML depend on how the DOM got created
503. # [10:51] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: that is to say: If you change the serialization of the docement itself, I think it's a mistake that innerHTML starts wanting different input, too
504. # [10:51] <david_carlisle> hsivonnen: actually for innerhtml I'd probably agree since it's a post parse dom thing, but srcdoc is (more or less) a parse time feature isn't it
505. # [10:51] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: I think it would be a similar mistake if srcdoc behavior changed
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507. # [10:52] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: as I understand it, you could set the srcdoc attribute value from JS
508. # [10:52] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: ah
509. # [10:52] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
510. # [10:52] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: stop being right, makes arguing with you harder
511. # [10:53] <david_carlisle> in a perfect world though, people of a same disposition ought to be able to just use the xhtml syntax and not know the html syntax at all. there's always data:text/xml i suppose...
512. # [10:54] <david_carlisle> s/same/sane/
513. # [10:55] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: if there was even near-equal author interest in text/html and application/xhtml+xml, it would make sense to have an XML-enabled srcdoc equivalent without data: URLs
514. # [10:56] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: but in practice, normal authors outside the W3C are probably not going to care
515. # [10:57] <hsivonen> aside: this recent idea that authors should have Choice between RDFa, Microformats and Microdata, completely ignores the implementor side.
516. # [10:57] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: I suppose a world view where most people use xml and have as much mathematics as text in their documents counts me out of the "normal user" category
517. # [10:57] <hsivonen> it's bad enough to have the Choice between application/xhtml+xml and text/html
518. # [10:58] <david_carlisle> :-)
519. # [10:58] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: you can now have math in text/html!
520. # [10:58] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: Yeh!
521. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> users should be able to create their own arbitrary syntaxes, and browsers implementors should have to provide a mechanism to let them do that
522. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> that's true extensibility
523. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> I want to write my HTML using s-expressions
524. # [11:00] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I believe several browsers do that
525. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> and I should just be able to do that
526. # [11:00] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: Actually if you could get a few of your competitors to implement that, I'd dump the application/xhtml+xml version of our documentation base in a flash, I want xml everywhere inside our firewall but I'd be perfectly happy for it to be all text/html as published, if it worked
527. # [11:00] <jgraham> It's called clone+fork
528. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> no, the browser vendors should do it for me
529. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> the browser vendors are all holding me back
530. # [11:00] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: didn't Apple announce it for Safari 5?
531. # [11:00] <david_carlisle> yes
532. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> jgraham: they have all the power and I have none, and that's just not fair
533. # [11:01] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: and Opera has Ragnarök in the pipeline though the math rendering isn't quite up to the quality one would want
534. # [11:01] <jgraham> MikeSmith: They also have a good line in evil laughs
535. # [11:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: search engines are now holding you back, too
536. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: exactly
537. # [11:02] <david_carlisle> anyone from Chrome: speak up now:-)
538. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> "The typemustmatch attribute is a boolean attribute whose precense indicates..."
539. # [11:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: Presumably david_carlisle is partially responsible for the MathML CSS Profile stuff :)
540. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> I guess that's kind of like incense, but before you light it
541. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> speaking of incense, time for some j
542. # [11:05] <david_carlisle> jgraham: Well I partially have my name on the front, but really Giorgi from Opera did all the work
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545. # [11:07] <jgraham> david_carlisle: Like I said you are partially responsible for it :)
546. # [11:07] * jgraham is on the record as thinking it is not the greatest idea in the world
547. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> Opera?
548. # [11:08] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@2406:a000:f0ff:fffe::3461) (Quit: Leaving.)
549. # [11:09] <jgraham> Ms2ger: :p
550. # [11:09] <Ms2ger> :)
551. # [11:09] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
552. # [11:12] * jgraham wonders if he should ignore the fact that Janina accused someone of lying and then followed up with what amounts to "what you said is basically true, but the situation is more complex than you realised"
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554. # [11:13] <Ms2ger> My approach is to ignore everything that happens in the HTML WG
555. # [11:13] <Ms2ger> Works well, IMO :)
556. # [11:15] <jgraham> Yes, I see the merit in that approach for sure
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559. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> hmm, I had been hoping CSSLint did actual validation of property names
560. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> but I see it doesn't
561. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> by design
562. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> it would be nice to have an up-to-date CSS validator
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570. # [11:35] <zcorpan> anyone care about whether broken utf-8 in websockets should be U+FFFDd or fail the connection?
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583. # [12:18] <hsivonen> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2011/modal-dialogues-in-html5/ I thought dialogs in the UI sense were dialogs rather than dialogues even in en-GB. have I been mistaken for all these years?
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585. # [12:19] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Different style-guides say different things
586. # [12:19] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok
587. # [12:20] <gsnedders> hsivonen: dialog is probably more common, though
588. # [12:21] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: en-gb is whatever you want, for most computing things i'd follow us usage though (a fortran program but a tv programme, a css font but a church fount, ...)
589. # [12:21] * gsnedders has never come across that spelling of fount
590. # [12:22] <david_carlisle> en-gb is whatever you want:-)
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592. # [12:22] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: is a church fount etymologically related to typesetting font?
593. # [12:23] <david_carlisle> yes I think so, and old english typesetting books spell it as fount
594. # [12:23] <hsivonen> ok
595. # [12:23] * gsnedders looks up in OED…
596. # [12:24] <gsnedders> fount (for type) comes later than font (for type).
597. # [12:25] <gsnedders> From the French fonte
598. # [12:26] <gsnedders> The church font (always font), frm Latin font-em
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601. # [12:27] <hsivonen> the "CSS should support 'colour' folks" never seem to ask for "fount", too
602. # [12:28] <gsnedders> The OED notes for that sense fount is more common in England than font.
603. # [12:30] <jgraham> I had a "computing" practial in first year undergard
604. # [12:30] <jgraham> Let's try that again
605. # [12:31] <jgraham> I had a "computing" practical in first year undergrad
606. # [12:31] <jgraham> Which iirc was basically using Office
607. # [12:31] <jgraham> The hardest part was doing some numberial model in Excel
608. # [12:32] <jgraham> *numerical
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610. # [12:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess this wasn't the CS option. :)
611. # [12:32] <jgraham> Anyway at one point you were required to type something out about typefaces involving the word "fount"
612. # [12:33] <jgraham> And you were marked down for excluding the "u"
613. # [12:33] <jgraham> In other news, Frank King is quite nuts
614. # [12:35] * tbassett is now known as tbassetto
615. # [12:36] <jgraham> (disclaimer: I'm sure he isn't nutes really. But he does insist on the use of archaic spelling)
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617. # [12:38] <gsnedders> Only recently archaic, though, as far as I can tell.
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643. # [13:50] * hsivonen is surprised (in a positive way) to see someone other than the usual suspects say something (and reasonable!) in the longdesc debate
644. # [13:52] <jgraham> hsivonen:?
645. # [13:52] <hsivonen> the "stop right there" response wasn't so positive
646. # [13:53] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm catching up with public-html
647. # [13:53] <jgraham> Ah
648. # [13:53] <hsivonen> and just read Matthew Turvey's email
649. # [13:53] * hsivonen spent yesterday traveling and settling in the new location
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653. # [13:59] <jgraham> The PFWG list of "requirements" seems like a clear attempt to shift the goalposts to me. I get the stong impression that they were worked out by writing down all the positive properties of longdesc, writing down all the positive properties of other solutions, and eliding the intersection
654. # [13:59] <jgraham> But I guess no good will come of getting more involved
655. # [14:00] <jgraham> eliding the intersection... from the longdesc side and billing the remainder as "requirements"
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661. # [14:16] <zcorpan> hsivonen: a common authoring problem apparently is using <a href><div> and not setting the a to display:block which causes rendering issues in ie
662. # [14:16] <zcorpan> hsivonen: not that v.nu checks stylesheets, but if it did...
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664. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> somebody should write a modern CSS validator
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666. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: on another topic, didn't you raise a valiator.nu bug a while back proposing a way to trim down the allowed-attribute spec fragments based on what the type of the attribute is?
667. # [14:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: might be worthwhile to warn about that
668. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> *based on what the value of the type attribute is
669. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> the allowed-attributes spec fragment that gets emitted for input continues to confuse people -
670. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11048
671. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> we really ought to do something to fix that
672. # [14:26] <zcorpan> ah yeah
673. # [14:26] <zcorpan> at first i had no idea what you were talking about :)
674. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> heh
675. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> if you can find the bug number, I'd appreciate it
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678. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> oh
679. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> 339
680. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=339
681. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> I thought it was a new one but I guess it was just that I re-read it recently
682. # [14:29] <zcorpan> are v.nu bugs that are autosubmitted from spec checkins annotated in some way so they can be excluded from searches?
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684. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: no, unfortunately :(
685. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> not as far as I know at least
686. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> maybe hsivonen knows
687. # [14:30] <zcorpan> is that thing still enabled?
688. # [14:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: you could try to to filter by the URL field
689. # [14:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no longer enabled
690. # [14:31] <zcorpan> ah
691. # [14:31] <zcorpan> ok
692. # [14:32] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Jun/0040.html (Member-only; the To field is worth checking out in the light of the Subject field)
693. # [14:34] * hsivonen also notes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Jun/0050.html
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697. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: about the input error-message thing, your suggestion in http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=339#c0 seems like the best way to handle it, so I guess I'll try to figure out how to implement that
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711. # [15:09] * zcorpan learns about http://csslint.net/
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719. # [15:32] <rimantas> not a good thing to learn about :(
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722. # [15:33] <hsivonen> rimantas: why not? did the lint hurt your feelings?
723. # [15:34] <rimantas> hsivonen, yup, along with oocss
724. # [15:34] <hsivonen> what's oocss?
725. # [15:35] <rimantas> they should have called it oocss lint, that would make more sense then
726. # [15:35] <rimantas> oocss is Nicole's brainchild: https://github.com/stubbornella/oocss/wiki/faq
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728. # [15:37] * MikeSmith wishes somebody would brainchild a better css validator
729. # [15:38] * jgraham wishes the first FAQ was "WTF is this?"
730. # [15:38] <nlogax> how hard is it to get patches into the w3 validator?
731. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> nlogax: the html4 one?
732. # [15:39] <nlogax> MikeSmith: the CSS validator i mean
733. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> dunno
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736. # [15:40] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: rel=prerender, but apparently it's already listed on the microformats wiki
737. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> nlogax: nobody is actually maintaining it actively any more
738. # [15:40] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: it was already in the old registry
739. # [15:41] <nlogax> MikeSmith: oh i see
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741. # [15:41] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: it was one of the very few proper registations in the old wiki, so I registered it in the new registry
742. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> nlogax: it's kind of past the point of being worth patching
743. # [15:41] <mpilgrim> when was it registered? did google put out a whitepaper on it a while ago or something?
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745. # [15:41] <mpilgrim> the feature was just announced like 2 days ago
746. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> the oocss FAQ question "I need more than six (h1-h6) headings on my site. How do I add more?" needs a better answer
747. # [15:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: registered in the old registry on May 17th
748. # [15:44] <hsivonen> oops
749. # [15:44] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: ^
750. # [15:44] <mpilgrim> wow
751. # [15:44] <hsivonen> I guess this was a failure for the old registry to point properly to the new one
752. # [15:46] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: it's nice to see a rel extension that comes with documentation with the words "Corner Cases" in a section heading
753. # [15:46] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: quite refreshing compared to all the cargo-cult stuff out there
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755. # [15:48] <hsivonen> I'm still amazed that Dublin Core stuff hasn't been properly registered
756. # [15:48] <hsivonen> are DC users boycotting the registry?
757. # [15:48] <hsivonen> or are the specs too tedious to navigate even for people who put DC stuff on their pages
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760. # [15:57] <Philip`> jgraham: Did Frank King's numerical model happen to involve a bell and/or a sundial?
761. # [15:58] <jgraham> Philip`: You would have thought so wouldn't you?
762. # [15:58] <jgraham> As far as I recall they didn't, however
763. # [16:00] * Philip` has had seemingly nuttier lecturers, like one whose introduction-to-Java lecture notes were full of full-page photos of him wearing silly hats
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765. # [16:03] * jgraham had one that decided it would be a good idea to sing an end-of-course song
766. # [16:03] <jgraham> But I don't think he can hold a candle to Frank King
767. # [16:04] <Philip`> Did he/she ask everyone to join in the singing?
768. # [16:05] <jgraham> I don't remember. Terrifyingly this was almost a decade ago
769. # [16:05] <jgraham> I have some dim suggestion that maybe we were expected to koin in for the final chorus
770. # [16:05] <jgraham> *join
771. # [16:06] <jgraham> But that could be a false memory
772. # [16:06] <Philip`> That sounds potentially excruciating
773. # [16:06] <jgraham> I do, however, remember the couplet "If you're feeling like a cabbage / sitting in the Babbage" quite clearly
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791. # [16:55] <hsivonen> so if crossorigin and typemustmatch get reverted from W3C HTML5, will they just get the same preprocessor treatment that <a ping> gets now?
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793. # [17:02] <erlehmann> preprocessor treatment?
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795. # [17:04] <hsivonen> erlehmann: there's a preprocessor that removes and splits stuff when generating the W3C specs and removes other stuff when generating the WHATWG spec
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797. # [17:05] <erlehmann> ah.
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828. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Presumably, yes.
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842. # [19:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: definitely -- even more so than ping, since both of those are important security features
843. # [19:07] <Hixie> btw re srcdoc="", the reason i didn't make it work usefully in xml is that xml's escaping rules make it not really any more useful than data: URLs
844. # [19:11] * miketaylr is now known as mktylr
845. # [19:12] <Hixie> could someone explain to Jukka that HTML is not related to SGML anymore so the term "DTD" is meaningless in this context?
846. # [19:13] <Ms2ger> Would it help?
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858. # [19:46] <jarib> i think i've found a bunch of invalid WebIDL in the HTML spec, at least my parser complains about "SomeInterface?" and "object?"
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860. # [19:46] <jarib> since those types are already nullable, the ? isn't right
861. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> jarib, your parser is out of date
862. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> At least a week
863. # [19:46] <jarib> Ms2ger: so this isn't up to date http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/#idl-nullable-type ?
864. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> No
865. # [19:47] <jarib> aha
866. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> Try the dev.w3.org draft
867. # [19:47] <Hixie> TR/ page strikes again!
868. # [19:47] <Hixie> you want http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/
869. # [19:47] <jarib> i always get confused :)
870. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> So how about we solve that by not publishing new drafts on TR/...
871. # [19:47] <jarib> thanks, i'll fix the parser
872. # [19:49] * ralphholzmann is now known as rlphhlzmnn
873. # [19:49] * Ms2ger hopes Hixie keeps up the bug fixing rate
874. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> somebody here said earlier, "/TR stands for Trash"
875. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> which is a dumb thing to say
876. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> whoever said that
877. # [19:55] * rlphhlzmnn is now known as HolzRalphmann
878. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> It is, unfortunately, often accurate.
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880. # [19:56] <Hixie> any IE users around? i need a test of http://junkyard.damowmow.com/471
881. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> btw, that 2006 in the dev URL al
882. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> *also is really helpful for readers
883. # [19:57] <Hixie> i stopped being impressed with the bogus years in urls when i started seeing TWO bogus dates in some w3c urls
884. # [19:57] <Hixie> that's where it's at
885. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> Hixie: After hitting "Test", I get "script" and "new-original". After hitting "Reset" I get "new-original" and "original".
886. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> ie9
887. # [19:59] <Hixie> thanks
888. # [19:59] <Hixie> and also, what?
889. # [19:59] <Hixie> that's even more crazy than what opera does
890. # [19:59] <Hixie> fucking browsers
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894. # [20:03] <clair> Hixie: I noticed you've written up some stuff on <dialog> - sorry I've not done anything yet, promise I'll do some research on JS libraries by the end of the weekend!
895. # [20:03] <Hixie> no worries!
896. # [20:03] <Hixie> the more the merrier
897. # [20:04] <clair> Yeah, just didn't want you thinking I'd cleared off and decided not to do anything :)
898. # [20:04] <Hixie> :-)
899. # [20:04] <clair> I was going to do stuff last weekend but ended up, er, clothes shopping
900. # [20:04] <clair> (As you do)
901. # [20:04] <Hixie> (http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Dialogs if anyone else wants to contribute, btw)
902. # [20:05] <Hixie> clair: cool
903. # [20:05] * danheberden is now known as aeee
904. # [20:05] <Hixie> clair: if you do have time to help out, one thing that would help that hasn't been done at all yet is screenshots and snippets of markup and script showing how the pages are doing it now
905. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Dammit, why do list markers have to be so damn magical?!? >_<
906. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, it's the web
907. # [20:07] * aeee is now known as danheberdn
908. # [20:07] <clair> I wasn't sure if code snippets would've been too much at this stage, but sure I can do that
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915. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: But now I have no idea where to place ::marker pseudos in the element-tree, unless I punt and make position:marker *even more* magical. ;_;
916. # [20:12] * Joins: othermaciej_ (~mjs@17.246.18.73)
917. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> It isn't in the element tree
918. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> When are you defining the box tree again?
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921. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> Pseudos live in the element-tree.
922. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> (Thus the pseudo-*element* part.)
923. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> And probably sometime next year.
924. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> If fantasai doesn't beat me to it.
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932. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> See, if apple.com had enabled SPF with hard fail instead of soft fail, that spam mail to whatwg would have bounced.
933. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> And also all forwarding would break for Apple employees.
934. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
935. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> I hate the Internet sometimes.
936. # [20:28] <Hixie> i don't understand why that spam mail went through in the first place
937. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> Why shouldn't it?
938. # [20:28] <Hixie> none of the addresses are subscribed
939. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
940. # [20:29] * Quits: othermaciej_ (~mjs@17.246.18.73) (Quit: othermaciej_)
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942. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Maybe it subscribed and then unsubscribed for some reason?
943. # [20:29] <Hixie> maybe
944. # [20:29] <Hixie> though how?
945. # [20:29] <Hixie> they'd need access to the account
946. # [20:30] <Hixie> who filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12470 and could they explain to me how you can have horizontal top and bottom margins?
947. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Oh, right . . .
948. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Good question, then.
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951. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> Hixie, wasn't me, but I don't think the spec is clear
952. # [20:32] <Hixie> well i added the word vertical to make sure
953. # [20:32] <Hixie> but i don't understand how else it could be interpreted
954. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> You could read it as "all the margins of elements at the top..."
955. # [20:33] <Hixie> i guess
956. # [20:33] * Ms2ger shuts up and lets Hixie work :)
957. # [20:34] <Hixie> i guess i should go to the office
958. # [20:34] <Hixie> bbiab.
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976. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> Wow. initKeyEvent is horrifying. Ten arguments, of which six are booleans.
977. # [20:58] * Joins: koskoz (koskoz@tri59-2-82-225-135-247.fbx.proxad.net)
978. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> Yes.
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985. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Argh, drat it, another bounce.
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998. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I wonder who came up with initKeyEvent first? Also, I wonder if that person hates the entire world, or just web devs in particular.
999. # [21:49] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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1010. # [22:27] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Damn you nerd sniped me
1011. # [22:27] <jgraham> +,
1012. # [22:27] <jgraham> But I can't find who is responsible for initKeyEvent
1013. # [22:27] <jgraham> I bet it was made up in a telecon
1014. # [22:28] <jgraham> However I did find http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/1997JulSep/0007.html
1015. # [22:28] <jgraham> Which is very interesting
1016. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Interesting indeed.
1017. # [22:38] <jgraham> And makes for a fun human-interest angle since Tim Bray "invented" draconian XML and it seems his wife narrowly missed standardising HTML error recovery 10 years before Hixie finally succeeded
1018. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> Ah, didn't realize Lauren Wood was his wife.
1019. # [22:39] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYGDCCCXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
1020. # [22:39] <jgraham> I believe so, although I have been mistaken about bigger things
1021. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Hm, the newest "let's hash <input type=password>" suggestion seems pretty decent.
1022. # [22:40] <jgraham> (also, I guess Tom Pixley is the most likely candidate for initEvent and friends)
1023. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> (Except for suggesting sending the extra information in a header instead of an extra form input.)
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1026. # [22:44] * jgraham wonder why "Host cannot validate password requirements" is listed as a disadvantage
1027. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Heh, indeed.
1028. # [22:45] * TabAtkins will put that in his response email, as it's good snark (and a good point).
1029. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Possible disadvantage - a good server uses a good crypto hash, which is slow to evaluate, forcing each login attempt to take a non-trivial amount of time. If the attacker can use their own resources to compute the cryptographic hash quickly relative to the attempts (frex, putting several machines to work hashing for each one making requests), they can bypass that.
1030. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> But then, those are machines not being spent making requests, so that may end up being a wash.
1031. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> It's not sane to distribute the actual hash computation, when you're doing brute-force hashing.
1032. # [22:51] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@208-90-212-203.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
1033. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> Just have each node compute its own hash, it's embarrassingly parallel.
1034. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> I wasn't meaning to distribute the individual hashings, but to have several machines hashing for each machine making requests.
1035. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> Doesn't each request only submit one hash?
1036. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Yes.
1037. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> But requests are faster than hashing with a good hash.
1038. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> Well, "good" for password storage, anyway.
1039. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> (The full rtt may not be, but you don't have to worry about that.)
1040. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's the contexty.
1041. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> s/y//
1042. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Why wouldn't you just have each node both hash and submit at the same time?
1043. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Submitting should take negligible CPU time.
1044. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Compared to hashing.
1045. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> It doesn't make sense to forward the hashes to other nodes to submit.
1046. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> Then you've dropped down to the same rate that you'd get if the server was computing the hash itself.
1047. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> But like I said, it sounds like it'd be a wash anyway.
1048. # [22:54] * AryehGregor looks at the thread
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1050. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Or rather, it sounds like it's exactly identical, except with useless message-passing.
1051. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> Right, that's what I meant.
1052. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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1073. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> Wow, I spent ridiculously long replying to that post.
1074. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> Like almost an hour. Definitely not worthwhile.
1075. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> (what with me not being paid for it, I mean)
1076. # [23:42] * AryehGregor goes back to work for the next not very many minutes
1077. # [23:43] <Hixie> which post? i want to waste some time too!
1078. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> The one about password hashing.
1079. # [23:43] <Hixie> oh, bummer, it's a whatwg mail
1080. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
1081. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> This is actually a fairly good proposal.
1082. # [23:43] <Hixie> :-P
1083. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> I just wish I could see some way to work proper salting into it.
1084. # [23:45] <Hixie> biggest problem with it is nobody will understand it
1085. # [23:45] <Hixie> but they'll get a false sense of security
1086. # [23:45] <Hixie> the proposal itself could be used securely
1087. # [23:45] <Hixie> it's like postMEssage() -- it can be used securely, but the API is widely misunderstood and misused
1088. # [23:46] <clair> Thing is, those browsers that don't do the hashing will send over plain text passwords and naive coders will just store that
1089. # [23:46] <clair> If I understand the post correctly...
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1091. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> Hixie, if I know that my password is being hashed with SHA256 100,000 times before submission, that gives me a fairly substantial security guarantee as a user.
1092. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> If I could somehow also know that a long random per-user salt was being used, that's basically all the security guarantee I need.
1093. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> The latter is what's tricky.
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1095. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> But at least the former is better than nothing.
1096. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Also, it's better if the client transmits the hash instead of the plaintext password, to make life harder for eavesdroppers.
1097. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The benefit is that you don't need to understand it. Right now, a lot of devs just store the plaintext password directly. With @hash, they'd just store the hash directly. No change in their life.
1098. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> As opposed to making people understand that they should throw away the plaintext password as soon as possible.
1099. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: One downside of a per-user salt is that fingerprinting suddenly gets trivial.
1100. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, huh? What do you mean?
1101. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> The per-user salt has to be supplied by the site, obviously.
1102. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> Oh, okay.
1103. # [23:51] <AryehGregor> It can't be supplied by the browser, because the user might use different browsers.
1104. # [23:51] <Hixie> AryehGregor: your browser could do that today (indeed that's what systems like lastpass do, no?)
1105. # [23:52] <Hixie> AryehGregor: "this" being the "hashed with SHA256 100,000 times before submission" stuff
1106. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> querySelector("input[name=username]").onchange = function() { querySelector("input[name=password]").salt = this.value; };
1107. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> Hixie, yes, but then you have to use the same browser all the time, because the site doesn't know about it.
1108. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> No logging into sites from a friend's computer.
1109. # [23:52] <Hixie> AryehGregor: or the same plugin
1110. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> Generally my friends would be annoyed if I tried to install a plugin in their browser, I'd think. Operators of public computers would be even more annoyed.
1111. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> There's clear benefit to having the site involved in the process.
1112. # [23:53] <Hixie> anyway, it'll end up on my WF3 pile and will sit there until browsers are interoperable and pretty on the wf2 stuff :-)
1113. # [23:53] <Hixie> AryehGregor: such systems have web sites you can use and copy and paste the password, too
1114. # [23:54] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i'm not saying it's not better to have a standard way to do it, but i'm not sure it's better to have the site do it
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1116. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> Bigger problem: your way requires user opt-in and awareness.
1117. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> If it's done by the author, all users benefit.
1118. # [23:56] <jgraham> Yes, somehing that requires users to use lastpass or whatever is hopeless
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1120. # [23:56] <jgraham> That protects the 0.1% of users who were probably the best protected anyway
1121. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> If any significant number of savvy users come to expect it, and they can easily tell whether it's happening (like if the input displays slightly differently and it's hard for authors to forge the appearance), they'll pressure authors of large sites to use it.
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1123. # [23:56] * david_carlisle_ is now known as david_carlisle
1124. # [23:57] <zewt> sort of wondering if it could reuse something like SCRAM, instead of reinventing the wheel, but that's a real challenge-response mechanism so it's not quite the same
1125. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> What everyone really should use is SRP.
1126. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> TLS over SRP is the cure to all phishing problems.
1127. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> . . . As long as everyone uses it.
1128. # [23:58] <zewt> don't know anything about it
1129. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> SRP is a type of PAKE. It's basically like symmetric-key encryption, where the password is the key, and executing the protocol gives the client or server or any eavesdropper close to zero information about the key if they don't know it already.
1130. # Session Close: Fri Jun 17 00:00:00 2011

The end :)