/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-06-24 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Jun 24 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:07] <Hixie> clair: thanks for the work on the wiki
# [00:08] <clair> No worries :)
# [00:08] <clair> Looks like you've made use of it, do you still want more code or is that enough?
# [00:09] <Hixie> i haven't studied what we have their yet
# [00:09] <Hixie> there even
# [00:09] <Hixie> so no idea :-)
# [00:09] <clair> Ah right, I just saw that you wrote a few notes
# [00:09] <Hixie> yeah that was just some stuff that i was thinking about in the shower
# [00:09] <Hixie> figured i should write it down somewhere
# [00:09] <Hixie> no idea if it makes any sense or not
# [00:10] <clair> What's the best way for me to say "But this would be nice/I'd like to be able to do this"? on your notes?
# [00:10] <clair> heh, some bits do at a glance :)
# [00:10] <Hixie> if you have an agenda, best thing to do is to find examples of dialogs that do what you want to do and include them :-)
# [00:11] <clair> I just would prefer modals to show centre of page rather than at cursor position, that's all really ;)
# [00:12] <clair> (Though of course having them at cursor position is also useful..)
# [00:12] <Hixie> ah that's where screenshots would be useful
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# [00:12] <Hixie> (if you do attach screenshots, make the window as small as you can while still showing the effect, we don't want 3000x2000 screenshots with a 300x200 dialog in the middle!)
# [00:13] * clair grins
# [00:13] <clair> I'm sure I'll find some dialogs that I like :)
# [00:14] <Hixie> :-)
# [00:14] <Hixie> from what i've seen, facebook is a good source of dialogs
# [00:14] <Hixie> though i don't have an account myself
# [00:14] <Hixie> also google docs seems to be pretty dialog-happy
# [00:15] <benschwarz> Hey Hixie
# [00:15] <Hixie> benschwarz!
# [00:15] <Hixie> 'sup
# [00:15] <karlcow> Big Lebowsky is dialogs happy too
# [00:15] <benschwarz> Doing good man. Hows things?
# [00:15] <clair> There's a javascript (jquery maybe) library that copies facebook dialogs - facebox or something. Although to today's standard's/facebook design it might be a bit rubbish now
# [00:16] <clair> Should dig out my facebook and google docs accounts and take a fresh look
# [00:17] <benschwarz> just updated the developer spec now Hixie
# [00:17] <benschwarz> no updates from me. just spec content
# [00:18] <Hixie> benschwarz: doing good, actually making positive progress against the feedback onslaught for once
# [00:18] <Hixie> benschwarz: cool
# [00:18] <Hixie> clair: i expect the big places (facebook, google, apple, microsoft) will have rolled their own dialogs and may be a good place to look at to get a variety of options
# [00:19] <Hixie> clair: my assumption (may be false) is that most smaller sites will all use the same libraries so will have less variation
# [00:19] <Hixie> clair: but i could be completely wrong
# [00:19] <benschwarz> Hixie: I was thinking last night -
# [00:19] <benschwarz> appCache / manifest being static…
# [00:20] <benschwarz> I want my mobile devices to download less, where possible, and maybe use polyfills conditionally, without loading them also
# [00:20] <clair> Hixie: Good point there... doesn't apple use some open source library that isn't jquery?
# [00:21] <benschwarz> do you think using javascript to construct a manifest then base64 it to the browser (html tag) would work?
# [00:22] <Hixie> clair: dunno
# [00:22] <Hixie> benschwarz: i'm confused. what are you trying to cache?
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# [00:23] <benschwarz> Hixie: nothing too special, but it seems a shame to download (and store) files in cache that certain devices dont require
# [00:23] <benschwarz> …which can mean detection / UA sniffing on the server side
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# [00:24] <benschwarz> just thinking aloud… wondering if you could construct a manifest in JS client-side
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# [00:26] <Hixie> benschwarz: ah
# [00:26] <Hixie> benschwarz: the manifest url is used to decide what's going on, so no, not in the current model
# [00:26] <clair> Couldn't they be constructed server side using UA sniffing?
# [00:27] <clair> (although I realise that kind of detection is bad)
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# [00:34] <jamesr> you could have a non-cached loader page that issued a request (or a redirect or something) to the appriopriate cached URL for that ua/etc variation
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# [00:40] <Yuhong> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.html/msg/30ef82a1fbab905a?hl=en
# [00:40] <Yuhong> They have clearly stated that they will only support 90% or the standards for fear of
# [00:40] <Yuhong> "problems with backwards-accessibility". Bull. If they hadn't screwed up prior implementations of HTML and CSS that wouldn't be
# [00:40] <Yuhong> an issue. "
# [00:41] <Yuhong> Sounds familiar?
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# [00:43] <Yuhong> Here is the story:
# [00:43] <Yuhong> Mozilla and IE5 for Mac faced the same problem too, and they decided to solve it by inventing DOCTYPE switching.[`
# [00:44] <Yuhong> IE6 for Windows copied it.
# [00:45] <Yuhong> The problem is then they stagnated IE for 5 years and it gained a monopoly, so guess what people did with ie6's standards mode?
# [00:45] <gsnedders> Moz didn't implement it till after IE, though dbaron proposed it on mailing list before IE impl it.
# [00:45] <gsnedders> AFIAK.
# [00:45] <dbaron> doctype switching?
# [00:45] <dbaron> not my idea
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# [00:46] <gsnedders> dbaron: Any idea who? My memory is obviously dodgy. :)
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# [00:47] <Yuhong> The problems caused by it of course led to the proposal for HTML versioning to the HTML WG, and later the invention of X-UA-Compatible, another mode switch.
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# [00:52] <Yuhong> Anyway, besides <li> being used for indent, <dd>, <dl> and several other tags was used for Indent.
# [00:52] <Yuhong> <Hx> was used to change font size in the Mosaic age.
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# [00:54] <dbaron> gsnedders, well, Gecko has had some form of recognizable doctype sniffing since http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvsquery.cgi?treeid=default&module=all&branch=HEAD&branchtype=match&dir=&file=&filetype=match&who=&whotype=match&sortby=Date&hours=2&date=explicit&mindate=1999-05-15+22%3A26&maxdate=1999-05-15+22%3A29&cvsroot=%2Fcvsroot (see the nsParser.cpp changes)
# [00:54] <dbaron> gsnedders, though really there was a little code before that
# [00:54] <dbaron> gsnedders, I think tantek or Todd Fahrner might know who came up with the idea...
# [00:54] <dbaron> or rickg
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# [00:55] <Yuhong> Here is an example of this abuse: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html/msg/ee3198e46d567819?hl=en
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# [01:00] <Hixie> what's the opposite of an idempotent operation?
# [01:00] <Hixie> specifically, what would one call an operation that can only be done once?
# [01:00] <AryehGregor> What does "can only be done once" mean?
# [01:00] <AryehGregor> What stops you from doing it twice?
# [01:00] <Hixie> a word meaning "irreversible and not-idempotent"
# [01:01] <Hixie> well e.g. you can only break an egg once
# [01:01] <Yuhong> Of course when exactly DOCTYPE switching happened don't matter for this story, what matters that IE6 for Win adopted it and then stagnated for five years.
# [01:01] <Hixie> once you've broken an egg, you can't break it again
# [01:01] <Hixie> so breaking an egg is a .... operation
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# [01:01] <gsnedders> dbaron: I remember reading something linking to some 98 post on moz mailing list about it, though I was unaware Gecko's impl went back anywhere near that far
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> Well, there's not going to be a mathematical term for it. The concept doesn't make sense for pure functions.
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> It's all about side effects.
# [01:01] <Hixie> doesn't have to be a mathematical term :-)
# [01:02] <gsnedders> Today's interesting question: what's the most complex JS you can come up with that you can prove with static-analysis is pure?
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# [01:02] <Hixie> define "complex"
# [01:02] <Yuhong> Which basically screwed it up.
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# [01:03] <gsnedders> Hixie: Does something interesting.
# [01:04] <Hixie> return 'insert text of a very interesting book here';
# [01:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: Something more complex than function(a, b) { return a * b; }
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# [01:04] <Hixie> wait, what do you mean by "pure"?
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# [01:05] <AryehGregor> "No side effects".
# [01:05] <Hixie> is throwing an exception a side-effect?
# [01:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: No side effects, and state doesn't effect its result.
# [01:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: No, that's a return value.
# [01:06] <Hixie> is triggering GC or allocating memory a side-effect?
# [01:07] <Hixie> are available memory or amount of time the script has been executing so far "state"s?
# [01:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: GC shouldn't be observable, so no. Allocating memory isn't really a side-effect. If they're not arguments to the function, yes.l
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# [01:08] <Hixie> GC is observable in practice via timing attacks, and allocating memory affects both GC and available memory, which you just described is a state.
# [01:09] <Dashiva> gsnedders: What do you mean by complexity? It's possible to write a really big and complex function that only uses local state, so...
# [01:09] <Hixie> anyway, function(a, b) { return a * b; } depends on state and has side-effects
# [01:09] <Yuhong> From http://www.alistapart.com/articles/beyonddoctype :
# [01:09] <Hixie> so it's not "pure" by your definition
# [01:09] <Yuhong> "Back in 1998, Todd Fahrner came up with a toggle that would allow a browser to offer two rendering modes: "
# [01:09] <AryehGregor> Hixie, we're talking about JavaScript on the conceptual level, e.g., side effects that all JavaScript implementations must have.
# [01:09] <AryehGregor> Like ones required by the spec.
# [01:10] <Yuhong> In the article there is a link to the mailing list message.
# [01:10] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Really, I want something that does something interesting.
# [01:10] <AryehGregor> On a practical level, it's implemented in circuits and nothing is really pure.
# [01:10] <Dashiva> gsnedders: How about e.g. a SHA-1 implementation
# [01:11] <Hixie> ah well if this is purely hypothetical then i question whether the question is "interesting" :-P
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# [01:11] <Philip`> What does "state doesn't [a]ffect its result" mean?
# [01:11] <Yuhong> Better link via Google Groups :http://groups.google.com/group/netscape.public.mozilla.layout/browse_thread/thread/fa45e75bd0e8af0f
# [01:13] <boogyman> "interesting" is a subjective term
# [01:13] <Dashiva> Hixie: I would call it a cake operation
# [01:13] <Dashiva> Since you can only eat a cake once, and you can't reverse eating a cake
# [01:13] <Hixie> heh
# [01:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: It's not purely theoretical, because it's relevant if you want to do, e.g., loop invariant code-motion of function calls.
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# [01:14] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Probably doable.
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# [01:14] <gsnedders> Yuhong: thanks for finding that
# [01:14] <Philip`> For any particular piece of code that is pure, it's trivial to write a static analyser that proves it's pure (just make one like "if (code == thatParticularPieceOfCode') return true"), so that part of the interesting question doesn't seem relevant to anything
# [01:15] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Can you give an anagram of Banach–Tarski?
# [01:16] <Philip`> s/interesting/allegedly interesting/
# [01:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: Hmm, function() { var a = []; return a.length; } is pure, though it's not immediately obvious that you can trivially prove by a machine that that property access is pure.
# [01:17] <Hixie> yeah i don't really know whether you can have code with no side-effects that is particularly interesting, i mean, the side-effects are the interesting bit
# [01:17] <Hixie> e.g. displaying the result on the screen
# [01:17] <Dashiva> Hixie: Isn't that what functional programming is all about? No side effects
# [01:17] <Hixie> there's always a side-effect _somewhere_
# [01:17] <Hixie> otherwise you can optimise the whole thing away
# [01:17] <jamesr> no intermediate side effects
# [01:17] <Hixie> and that can hardly be particularly interesting
# [01:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: Sure, you just have side-effects elsewhere. The point is taking advantage of pure functions to do stuff like loop invariant code-motion.
# [01:18] <Philip`> gsnedders: You can prove it trivially with a machine in which you define that function's purity as an axiom
# [01:18] <Hixie> gsnedders: doesn't [] run the Array constructor which can be hooked?
# [01:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: It always runs the built-in Array constructor, no matter what Array in the global scope is equal to
# [01:19] <Hixie> ah
# [01:19] <Dashiva> Actually, no I'm trying to remember if the pure keyword in FORTRAN was a hint or actually enforced...
# [01:19] <Dashiva> *now
# [01:19] <Hixie> how did those json attacks work then?
# [01:19] <jamesr> and so .length ignores Array.prototype in the global scope too?
# [01:20] <gsnedders> jamesr: length is on the individual Array object, so what's on the prototype doesn't matter.
# [01:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: dunno. prototypes?
# [01:22] <gsnedders> jamesr: But yeah, reading any property you can't prove is on the object itself and hence might be on the prototype would make it impure.
# [01:22] <Hixie> gsnedders: from what you've described, it seems easy to prove that it's pure. You walk back from the property access until you get to the previous line which constructs the object in question, and there you find that .length is defined in a pure way, and so you can see it wasn't changed along the way. QED.
# [01:23] <Hixie> s/line/statement/
# [01:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: expression
# [01:23] <gsnedders> :P
# [01:24] <gsnedders> (function statements must have a name)
# [01:24] <Hixie> ?
# [01:24] <Hixie> i meant "return a.length" and "var a = []"
# [01:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, I know.
# [01:24] <Hixie> so statement, not expression
# [01:24] <Hixie> (though statements in JS can be expressions)
# [01:25] <Hixie> (but that's neither here nor there)
# [01:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: No, expressions can be statements, statements can't be expressions.
# [01:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: var foo = if (x) y; doesn't work
# [01:25] <Hixie> i meant what i wrote, but i agree that it's confusingly stated
# [01:25] <Philip`> A feature sadly missing in most languages since BCPL :-(
# [01:26] <Hixie> the class of syntax constructrs that are statements includes the class of syntax construct that is an expression
# [01:26] <Hixie> i actually don't usually like that feature
# [01:26] <Hixie> but that's another story
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# [01:27] <Hixie> (imho neither statements should be expressions not expressions statements, since confusing one for the other is almost always a bug)
# [01:27] <Hixie> (and expressions shouldn't have side-effects; "=" and "++", i'm looking at you)
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# [01:28] <Dashiva> But then you're promoting the vast majority of expressions to statements
# [01:28] <Hixie> hm?
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# [01:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: So function calls can't be expressions, assignment can't be expressions… what can?
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# [01:30] <gsnedders> (I know, I'm exaggerating, but that's a lot of things that cease to be expressions)
# [01:30] <Hixie> it works fine if you have functions that don't return values (which can't be expressions) and if assignment is not an expression.
# [01:31] <Hixie> (well, i can live with functions that return values being statements and the value is dropped, that's useful often enough)
# [01:32] <Dashiva> But then you need a class of statements that return values
# [01:32] <Hixie> why?
# [01:32] <Dashiva> Because expressions aren't allowed to have side effects, but things like delete and new have side effects and return values
# [01:34] <Hixie> function calls that have side-effects are fine
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# [01:38] <Dashiva> Sounds like you're just saying "expressions with side effects are fine, unless it's ++/--" :)
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# [01:40] <Hixie> or '=' @
# [01:40] <Hixie> er
# [01:40] <Hixie> or '=' !
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# [03:33] <sephr> Where do I get the URL for a folder selected by a user resolveLocalFileSystemURL if <input type="file"> only gives relative URLs?
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# [03:35] <sephr> a user for*
# [03:36] <sephr> actually from
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# [03:38] <charlvn> sephr: why would you need the containing directory? you only need the selected files, right?
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# [03:39] <sephr> charlvn: well that's not the point. resolveLocalFileSystemURL needs an absolute URL
# [03:39] <charlvn> ah i see
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# [03:39] <sephr> I need to use resolveLocalFileSystemURL because it's for cross-document manipulation of the files
# [03:40] <sephr> and I can't just adoptNode the file input to the other document
# [03:40] <sephr> also there isn't a single example usage of the function in the spec
# [03:40] <sephr> the person who proposed the function probably didn't even stop to think that it's not actually possible to use lol
# [03:41] <charlvn> i'm actually looking it up myself right now and the examples i'm finding look silly
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# [03:44] <sephr> charlvn: mind linking me to them?
# [03:44] <sephr> I haven't seen any real examples so far
# [03:44] <sephr> only one where someone uses it to access a private filesystem
# [03:44] <charlvn> i'm looking at the spec now but i see what you mean
# [03:44] <sephr> which is just pointless
# [03:44] <sephr> it's intended for file:// URLs
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# [03:44] <charlvn> been looking at this: http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/file/filesystem/
# [03:46] <sephr> yeah that doesn't really touch anything about the local filesystem
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# [03:49] <sephr> charlvn: I just thought of an crazy workaround so it's ok
# [03:50] <sephr> I'm going to request file:///
# [03:50] <sephr> and then make my own makeshift file browser
# [03:50] <sephr> in-page
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# [03:51] <charlvn> lol nice
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# [04:25] <sephr> How does a site request permission to use resolveLocalFileSystemURL?
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# [08:40] <estelle> Will an empty string as the value of the form attribute, form="", disassociate the element from the form of which the element is a descendant? Not that there is a reason to, but is this a way to get a form element to not submit with its parent form?
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# [08:46] <estelle> If the element's form owner is not null, and the element's form content attribute is not present, and the element's form owner is its nearest form element ancestor , then the form element ancestor is the owner. But if the form owner is listed as null via the attribute, does it disassociate from it's ancestor form in which it is contained?
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# [08:54] <estelle> if so, should the spec not explicitly state that? http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#attr-fae-form
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# [09:36] <estelle> http://jsfiddle.net/estelle/ujsEG/ is a test case. Opera disassociates it, Chrome submits it.
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# [09:55] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/meetings/2011-06-23 brings some TAG stuff to the public record
# [09:57] <bga_> espadrine i guess "form" attr just dont work in chrome
# [10:01] <estelle> bga_: form attribute works partially http://jsfiddle.net/estelle/ujsEG/ when submitted goes to http://www.standardista.com/?woof=dog&moo=cow&ribbit=frog. Ribbit=frog is outside the form.
# [10:01] <estelle> not the form attribute on ribbit
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# [10:33] <KevinMarks> hm, Safari 5.0.5 from apple website refuses to install on OS X 10.6.8
# [10:34] <hsivonen> KevinMarks: isn't it already bundled?
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# [11:45] <annevk> Do constructors inherit?
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# [11:46] <annevk> I.e. if I define a constructor on A, and I have interface B : A; does B have it as well?
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# [11:47] <bga_> in classical oop - no
# [11:47] <bga_> its source of silent errors
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# [11:56] <annevk> so we'd have to define it for each interface
# [11:57] <annevk> I guess that works, but it's a minor annoyance
# [12:04] <annevk> heycam|away, around?
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# [12:17] <annevk> AryehGregor, I think the link Hixie uses is http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=exact
# [12:17] <annevk> =ian%40hixie.ch&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Last+Changed&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=
# [12:17] <annevk> at least per damowmow.com
# [12:31] <annevk> oh, the W3C is not publishing WebVTT?
# [12:32] <hsivonen> annevk: source?
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# [12:33] <annevk> I meant it's not in W3C HTML5
# [12:33] <hsivonen> annevk: another WG is being chartered, though
# [12:33] <annevk> Oh right, they are going to set up some WG for it?
# [12:33] <annevk> ah
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# [12:40] <asmodai> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2011/installable-web-apps-and-interoperability/
# [12:40] <annevk> hmm, MediaQueryList needs its own task source? ...
# [12:43] * hsivonen read task force first
# [12:49] <annevk> :)
# [12:49] <annevk> with the CSS WG asking the TAG about Unicode normalization, I would not be surprised
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# [13:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: you managing html5.org, right.
# [13:04] <MikeSmith> * right?
# [13:06] <annevk> yeah
# [13:07] <annevk> and webforms2.org!
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# [13:12] <MikeSmith> annevk: can you add a platform.html5.org domain?
# [13:12] <MikeSmith> and gimme write perms for it
# [13:12] <MikeSmith> and for whoever cares to have it
# [13:13] <slartsa> hm, does html5 offer sollution for my issue of not being able to print source of a page where I have dynamically created and positioned elements?
# [13:13] <annevk> you want some space or you want it to point to another server?
# [13:13] <annevk> slartsa, no, developer tools have solutions for that
# [13:13] <MikeSmith> annevk: space
# [13:14] <annevk> you got it
# [13:14] <annevk> well soon
# [13:14] <slartsa> hm
# [13:14] <MikeSmith> no rush brother man
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# [13:30] <MikeSmith> oh man
# [13:30] <MikeSmith> "Mi nombre es Coronel Bolous Kappa"
# [13:30] <MikeSmith> that is the absolute winner for today
# [13:30] <MikeSmith> hands-down
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# [13:46] <annevk> takes quite a while for that new subdomain to become operational
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# [14:03] <hsivonen> annevk: why is the csswg asking the TAG?
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# [14:04] <annevk> to make it somebody else's problem
# [14:05] <annevk> they should just say no, but nobody seems to have the balls
# [14:06] <annevk> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core - constructor created events, time for a new blog post I gues
# [14:06] <hsivonen> :-(
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# [14:20] <annevk> Ms2ger, I guess I could do part of http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13041 already
# [14:20] <annevk> Ms2ger, I wonder whether we should wait until the mutation events business is sorted out
# [14:21] <Ms2ger> I dunno, I've done a bit of it as well
# [14:22] <annevk> Once Gecko has those new mutation thingies I guess we can add them
# [14:23] <annevk> well, I guess we should wait a week or so to see what the feedback is on the list
# [14:23] <annevk> and maybe write a blogpost to attract more attention etc.
# [14:24] <annevk> Peter`, what is your W3C Bugzilla account? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13044 ;)
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# [14:37] <annevk> Given the current constructor model I am even more convinced we should not have an uninitialized state of any kind...
# [14:37] <annevk> Just adds needless complexity
# [14:38] <matjas> are deferred scripts executed in source order or not?
# [14:38] <annevk> I think so
# [14:39] * Ms2ger thinks so as well
# [14:39] <Ms2ger> Async ones don't, though
# [14:39] <matjas> then so it must be
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# [14:39] <matjas> Ms2ger: I know that much :)
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# [14:40] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/06/creating-events
# [14:42] <annevk> "W3C strategy tax" awesome term
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# [14:43] <annevk> I do not get why I get two emails when I am the assignee despite that I have said I do not want to receive email when a new bug is created when I am the assignee
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# [15:23] <annevk> hmm
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# [15:23] <annevk> I might have screwed something up
# [15:24] <annevk> looks okay, just some additional useless commits
# [15:25] <hsivonen> hmm. my claims are wrong: http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2011/installable-web-apps-and-interoperability/comment-page-1/#comment-769682
# [15:26] <annevk> I agreed with your claims, fwiw
# [15:26] <annevk> And I really like that term
# [15:26] <hsivonen> annevk: which term?
# [15:27] <annevk> W3C strategy tax
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# [15:31] * Philip` wishes he knew how to disable font downloads in Opera, so he could safely visit hsivonen's site without it downloading megabytes of font files
# [15:32] <hsivonen> hmm. I should get around to writing a program that figures out which characters I use so that I could automate driving a subsetter
# [15:33] <hsivonen> the program would either have to implement the CSS cascade or have hard-coded info about the styles I use
# [15:34] <Philip`> It'd possibly be alright if you made each font include each Unicode block that contains any characters you use on your site
# [15:35] <Philip`> as long as you don't have a lot of CJK stuff on there
# [15:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: the fonts don't have CJK
# [15:37] <hsivonen> Philip`: but my site has bits of Polish and Belorusian
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# [15:51] <annevk> who is going to spec DOM Traversal?
# [15:56] <Ms2ger> Not it!
# [15:57] <Ms2ger> Didn't Peter` want to spec things? :)
# [15:58] <annevk> I think it's mostly me who wants him to spec things :)
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# [16:03] <annevk> Ms2ger, btw, merge somehow goes rather difficult because we have 3 heads
# [16:03] <annevk> Ms2ger, is that because of your annotations?
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# [16:03] <Ms2ger> Looking
# [16:04] <Ms2ger> Oh
# [16:05] * Ms2ger thinks
# [16:10] <Ms2ger> Should be fixed
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# [16:33] <asmodai> mmm, fast recycle of Chrome and Firefox is pushing corporations to IE due to longer EOL cycles.
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# [16:33] <asmodai> s/recycle/cycle
# [16:34] <asmodai> That definitely seems to mirror the sentiments and groans I heard from our system admins and helpdesk folks when FF EoL'd 4 after the 5 release notification.
# [16:36] <AryehGregor> They were already mostly using IE because of Group Policy and such.
# [16:36] <asmodai> Maybe.
# [16:36] <asmodai> But we moved to FF as the default here.
# [16:36] <AryehGregor> Nobody but MS really tries to target corporations much at all, except recently Chrome a little bit.
# [16:37] <asmodai> And between all the projects and whatnot, we simply have not the means of doing an effective one-day turn around on updates and testing.
# [16:37] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-event-type-timeStamp hmm
# [16:37] <annevk> Ms2ger, should we just copy that for now? (well not the "used to specify" bit, but the general idea)
# [16:37] <AryehGregor> The thing is, new Firefox versions are likely to be so well-tested that you should be able to just deploy them a little while after release and not worry about it.
# [16:37] <Ms2ger> asmodai, 6 weeks*
# [16:38] <asmodai> Ms2ger: Still, 6 weeks turn around? Hah, still laughable.
# [16:38] <asmodai> There's running projects, can't fit that in a 6 week timeframe.
# [16:38] <AryehGregor> What turnaround is needed? Deploy the update without testing and roll back if it causes problems.
# [16:39] <AryehGregor> What problems would it be likely to cause?
# [16:39] <Ms2ger> annevk, sure
# [16:39] <AryehGregor> Unless you rely on extensions . . . the Firefox extension ecosystem will have to adapt here.
# [16:39] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: rolling back can be painful if the Firefox data files have changed format
# [16:39] <AryehGregor> Chrome was smart to establish very high-level, not-so-powerful, but stable extension APIs from the start.
# [16:39] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, granted.
# [16:39] <asmodai> There's always the possibility of things breaking, internal or external websites.
# [16:39] <AryehGregor> The question is, in practice, how likely is it that things will break?
# [16:39] <AryehGregor> Unlike IE, Firefox maintains insane levels of compatibility between versions.
# [16:40] <AryehGregor> (IE doesn't in the last few versions because it's trying to converge to standards)
# [16:40] <AryehGregor> (although maybe the compat modes are enough for 8 and 9, I dunno)
# [16:40] <AryehGregor> Just because most software is written by monkeys and changes massively every release and breaks stuff, doesn't mean Firefox or Chrome will.
# [16:41] <AryehGregor> Firefox gets more testing before release than almost any organization could possibly come close to matching.
# [16:41] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: But likley not with their intranet
# [16:41] <Ms2ger> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2387514,00.asp?f=2#comment-233916003
# [16:41] <asmodai> What gsnedders says.
# [16:41] <gsnedders> (Which may well be some legacy system with no automated testing)
# [16:42] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it's possible, but I'd bet it's not going to be an issue for most organizations in practice.
# [16:42] <asmodai> gsnedders: Shit, we have tons of those here.
# [16:42] <gsnedders> (Or be built with orders from mangement to do it as soon as possible, regardless of whether or not it has tests or will work long-term)
# [16:42] <asmodai> No it's simpler.
# [16:42] <AryehGregor> But most websites are like that too.
# [16:42] <asmodai> new version? Test + acceptance for every app in use that it works.
# [16:42] <AryehGregor> The intranet sites are using the same functionality as the public website.
# [16:43] <AryehGregor> So if the intranet sites break, so will websites.
# [16:43] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Yet are more often built targetting a single browser.
# [16:43] <gsnedders> More often with workarounds for bugs in that browser, relying upon the b ugs.
# [16:43] <gsnedders> *bugs
# [16:43] <gsnedders> For websites you have to support multiple browsers practically, for intranets you don't.
# [16:44] <AryehGregor> Yes, it's possible that things will break, but I strongly suspect that people are not making a rational decision based on the risk and are just blindly applying policies because they're needed for all the other programs they use.
# [16:44] <Ms2ger> You could have a few people on Aurora, but I guess sysadmins are still scared of that idea
# [16:44] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Also, Opera has hacks in browser.js for some third-party software we use internally.
# [16:45] <asmodai> Ms2ger: I work in a development team and we use various versions of browsers ahead of time and that's still not a guarantee every subtle bug or interaction is caught.
# [16:45] <AryehGregor> So what you could do is 1) assign some people to use Aurora so you get early warning, 2) back up everyone's profiles right before deploying a new version, 3) deploy the new version without testing (beyond Aurora use) and roll back if there are problems, restoring the old profiles if necessary.
# [16:45] <asmodai> Let alone if you need to depend on additional support from companies like Oracle, SPSS, or whatnot.
# [16:46] <AryehGregor> Or just keep the old version of the browser installed and working in parallel so people can switch to it themselves if there are problems.
# [16:46] <AryehGregor> asmodai, there are no guarantees in life. You have to make a cost-benefit analysis, and not try applying deployment procedures designed for rarely-updated software to often-updated software.
# [16:46] <Ms2ger> asmodai, sure, but how do you guarantee that every subtle bug will be caught in 6 months of testing?
# [16:47] <asmodai> Ms2ger: Of course. But a timeframe of 6 months is more realistically to plan in. 6 weeks is not.
# [16:47] <AryehGregor> This is a question of people being put in situations they're not familiar with, not something that would be an actual problem in practice if they took appropriate measures.
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# [16:48] <AryehGregor> asmodai, a six-week release schedule means there are only six weeks of possible changes. That means there's much less risk of breakage from each new version.
# [16:48] <Ms2ger> asmodai, note that the number of changes between versions is orders of magnitude smaller now
# [16:48] <Ms2ger> What Aryeh said
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> "orders of magnitude"?
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> Should be like a quarter as many.
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> asmodai, the thing about doing regular small deployments is it usually causes only small problems that can be quickly fixed in production. It's not like software that only releases every two years and changes a million things at once and breaks everything at once.
# [16:49] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: The cost-benefit analysis is heavily biased towards the risk of something breaking. If nothing breaks, you've wasted a day or two of sysadmin time testing. If stuff badly breaks, you've killed producivity for the company for a few days.
# [16:49] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Also, having six weeks to change stuff makes no difference. Typically large changes land all at once, regardless of six weeks or six months.
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, yes, granted. But I think sysadmins who refuse to consider regular browser updates are overestimating the risk of breakage.
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, but you have fewer large changes per release.
# [16:50] <asmodai> Fair point, but I also think you too easily dismiss organisations with an attitude of "suck it up and adjust speed". It simply doesn't work like that. Especially not in organisations like this that are always strapped for cash and resources (university).
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> So fewer distinct things will break.
# [16:50] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It only takes one distinct thing to break to take the whole company down.
# [16:50] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, but if you have a few people running aurora, you'll be warned
# [16:51] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, what Ms2ger said, plus you can keep the old version installed.
# [16:51] <Ms2ger> It doesn't take 6 months to figure out that your intranet can't do anything anymore
# [16:51] <AryehGregor> So if it stops working, people can just immediately use the old version again.
# [16:51] <AryehGregor> This isn't a server app here.
# [16:52] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Not if the profile has been changed by the new version.
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> If someone's doing something in a browser, it doesn't matter if they have to take an extra five minutes to do it again in another browser.
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, keep the old profiles around.
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> If it's a big problem, you'll notice right away.
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> So switching back is no big deal.
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> Also, people can selectively use the old version.
# [16:52] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It depends how frequently used the system is.
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# [16:52] <Philip`> Do corporations currently happily do 4.0.0->4.0.1 etc updates with the assumption that nothing will break because it's just minor bug and security fixes?
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> So if one critical app breaks and they only use it every month, just go back to the old version for that app.
# [16:53] <annevk> added timeStamp
# [16:53] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Will my receptionist understand that?
# [16:53] <AryehGregor> Although again, breakage is unlikely here.
# [16:53] <AryehGregor> Look, you can always come up with theoretical problems.
# [16:53] <AryehGregor> The only way you can find out if it will work for your organization is to try it and see.
# [16:53] <AryehGregor> My bet is it will work fine.
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# [16:54] <AryehGregor> With no more sysadmin overhead than irregular updates, and probably less.
# [16:54] <AryehGregor> Because then everyone's very familiar with the routine, since they do it all the time.
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# [16:54] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Risk-benefit. What benefit does the company get from the upgrade?
# [16:54] <Ms2ger> Security patches
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# [16:54] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, as opposed to switching to IE?
# [16:54] <AryehGregor> That's the question, yeah.
# [16:54] <Ms2ger> A security architecture?
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> Even if it would be no higher risk to switch to Firefox in the long term, there's not really any incentive to find out.
# [16:55] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Or I can use a browser with a slower release cycle where I don't have such a large risk for that benefit.
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, most organizations don't care much about security as long as it's unlikely to hurt the bottom line, which it is.
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> Plus, IE9 is pretty secure.
# [16:55] <Philip`> If they don't care about security, they can just stick with Firefox 4 for years
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> So yeah, I can understand why people don't want to bother trying something different.
# [16:56] <Ms2ger> The enterprise doesn't use IE9, they're on XP
# [16:56] <AryehGregor> Lots of places have upgraded to 7 by now.
# [16:56] <AryehGregor> (Does XP have minority Windows market share yet?)
# [16:56] <AryehGregor> Depends who you ask, it seems.
# [16:56] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
# [16:56] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows#Usage_share
# [16:57] <AryehGregor> Looks like it's at about 50% or higher still.
# [16:57] <AryehGregor> Wow, Microsoft really messed up with Vista.
# [16:57] <Ms2ger> ... You didn't realize that earlier? :)
# [16:58] <AryehGregor> I didn't realize it was quite this bad.
# [16:59] <jcranmer> the upgrade mentality fell apart with the long vitality of XP
# [16:59] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Also: six week release cycles instead of six month release cycles you have the same amount of risk, just distributed over more points.
# [16:59] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, viewed differently, it's the same amount of risk but less concentrated.
# [16:59] <gsnedders> (If course, the real solution to this is to have complete automated test suites for intranet applications)
# [16:59] <AryehGregor> http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2011-01/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm
# [16:59] <gsnedders> *Of
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# [17:00] <AryehGregor> Windows NT 5.1 has slightly less share according to that than Windows NT 6.0+6.1.
# [17:00] <AryehGregor> But it probably underestimates corporate usage.
# [17:00] <gsnedders> (But the tools for automated testing of most browsers still suck in general)
# [17:00] <AryehGregor> So, yeah, ouch.
# [17:00] <llrcombs> Meanwhile, LARGE_PERCENTAGE of mac users upgrade to new OS versions, as they actually adds features and are inexpensive.
# [17:00] <AryehGregor> And most Linux users upgrade too.
# [17:00] <llrcombs> yep
# [17:01] <jcranmer> I think the recession cramped peoples' purchaes of new hardware
# [17:01] <AryehGregor> Microsoft only gets upgrades when people throw out their old hardware and buy new hardware that comes with 7 preinstalled.
# [17:01] <llrcombs> yep
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# [17:01] <AryehGregor> Of course, this is the disadvantage of slow upgrade cycles: the cost of each upgrade is greater, so people don't want to go to the trouble.
# [17:01] <gsnedders> (And possibly convincing mgmt to actually bother paying to write a test suite. Often up-front costs are harder than repeating costs.)
# [17:02] <llrcombs> well, $30 for Mac updates is pretty good as a price, and Linux updates are teh fr33z
# [17:02] <AryehGregor> If upgrades are common and effortless, people will be more willing to upgrade.
# [17:03] <llrcombs> Lion's easy to install, Windows... it depends, and Linux varies wildly
# [17:03] <llrcombs> sometimes on Linux, you can upgrade your kernel without even rebooting
# [17:03] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: My father has gone from System 7.5 -> Mac OS 9.0 -> Mac OS 10.4 -> Mac OS 10.6. Why so irregular? The OS works for him, and he's unliklely to use any new features. The only reason for the last one was 10.4 no longer getting security updates.
# [17:04] <llrcombs> so he must've gotten a new machine between 9 and 10.6
# [17:04] <remysharp> Regarding Web Storage events - if the event only fires on the /other/ windows on the same origin, am I right in thinking this is useless to sessionStorage?
# [17:04] * Philip` counted http://zaynar.co.uk/0ad-pub/oscounts.txt from some game over a few months, and quite a few people were using a slightly-over-a-year-old Ubuntu (which was the oldest the game was packaged for)
# [17:04] <AryehGregor> llrcombs, you can't upgrade the Linux kernel without rebooting, unless you use that thing that those guys are trying to sell that nobody uses.
# [17:04] <AryehGregor> The kernel hotpatch thing.
# [17:04] <gsnedders> llrcombs: Yeah, the first two updates were with new hardware.
# [17:05] <AryehGregor> Linux is an unusual pain to upgrade for an OS, because you typically upgrade all the software at once, not just the OS.
# [17:05] <AryehGregor> So it takes much longer and there's much more chance of breakage.
# [17:05] <AryehGregor> But if you don't do it, you don't get recent software versions unless you go to the pain of using non-distro packages, or tarballs.
# [17:06] <jcranmer> only upgrade X or anything else kernelish if you have an hour to spend fixing it if X goes bad
# [17:07] <gsnedders> Testing systems that rely on screenshots are fun to update
# [17:09] <Ms2ger> How about changing the fonts?
# [17:09] * Ms2ger pushes domcore
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# [17:12] <gsnedders> (Such testing systems also don't work well over many platforms)
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# [17:13] <gsnedders> (Font rendering varies massively, even with the same fonts)
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# [17:13] * annevk sees domcore coming and ducks
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# [17:18] <remysharp> are storage events valid for sessionStorage?
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# [17:20] <annevk> remysharp, yes
# [17:21] <remysharp> annevk: but the event only fires on the other windows, not the window I set the data
# [17:21] <remysharp> annevk: and since sessionStorage only stores in the current window - I don't get any events firing for sessionStorage
# [17:21] <remysharp> annevk: I'm pretty sure I've got this wrong - which is why I'm asking...
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# [17:28] <annevk> remysharp, if you have an iframe it would fire there
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# [17:29] <annevk> remysharp, multiples tabs are not related browsing contexts so that would indeed not work, no
# [17:29] <remysharp> annevk: hmm, interesting. I guess that would be the only situation, right?
# [17:30] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: + HTTP?
# [17:30] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Or is that lower level than you want to count?
# [17:30] <MikeSmith> not sexy
# [17:30] <MikeSmith> this is only for sexy stuff
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# [17:31] <annevk> remysharp, window.open() too
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# [17:32] <remysharp> annevk: you're a star. Cheers (again) for your help.
# [17:33] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: XSLT is sexy? *hides*
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: for masochists
# [17:34] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: True enough.
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# [17:40] <annevk> karlcow, can't just say silly and stupid and not explain yourself...
# [17:40] <annevk> that's pretty rude
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# [17:46] * MikeSmith reads hsivonen tweet. you dudes just wants to un-sexy the platform… sigh. but I guess we have to add that
# [17:48] <karlcow> annevk: your message was rude too (or childish or macho). I'll be happy to have a discussion with you about it f2f in front of a beer. :)
# [17:48] <karlcow> I'll be in Oslo beginning of september
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# [17:52] <MikeSmith> you guys should just oil up and have a wrestling match
# [17:52] <annevk> :)
# [17:52] <karlcow> hmmm this becomes interesting, but s/wresting/cuddling/ with oil!
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# [17:56] <MikeSmith> hey, anybody remember that Forms Task Force we created?
# [17:56] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to remember how that worked out
# [17:56] <MikeSmith> dunno why I'm thinking about it today
# [17:57] <MikeSmith> just came to mind for some reason
# [17:57] <Philip`> Did it ever get officially closed, or did it just die out by itself?
# [17:57] <annevk> yeah, we set a deadline for it
# [17:57] <annevk> and then they didn't produce (they included me)
# [17:57] <annevk> and then we merged Web Forms 2.0 into HTML
# [18:02] <MikeSmith> ok, so it worked out great, then
# [18:02] <MikeSmith> here's to similar successes
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# [18:18] <erlehmann> gsnedders, I once attempted to code a content management system in XSLT. last i heard, everyone who hears about XSLT goes through that stage.
# [18:18] <Ms2ger> I hear some people are generating specs with XSLT
# [18:19] <bga_> russian IT company yandex uses xslt as template everywhere
# [18:19] <erlehmann> hear, hear!
# [18:20] <MikeSmith> I still use xslt a lot
# [18:21] <MikeSmith> but my judgement is affected by chronic substance abuse
# [18:21] <MikeSmith> so I kind f don't count maybe
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# [18:22] <bga_> btw
# [18:22] <bga_> when event delegation by class will become standard browser api?
# [18:22] <erlehmann> great. i have made a javascript that leads not to a prompt telling me that the script is slow.
# [18:23] <erlehmann> no, it leads to a prompt telling me that the firefox prompter for slow scripts is slow!
# [18:23] <erlehmann> great success!
# [18:23] <erlehmann> also, killall firefox-bin
# [18:24] <Ms2ger> You might need to adjust that habit, we removed firefox-bin recently
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> Oh, really?
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> What do you have now?
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> aryeh 2153 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? Z Jun23 0:00 [firefox-bin] <defunct>
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# [18:24] <Ms2ger> Just firefox
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> :(
# [18:25] <erlehmann> Ms2ger, debian experimental still only yields FF4
# [18:25] <Ms2ger> Which used to be a wrapper shell script, IIRC
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it did.
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> Never saw the point.
# [18:25] <Ms2ger> erlehmann, boo, Debian
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, guess Debian gets no security updates.
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> The problem is, now all open-source browsers have six-week release cycles and get no security updates after a release.
# [18:26] <erlehmann> blame chrome
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> So Linux distros are going to have to figure out what to do.
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> They'll probably have to make exceptions.
# [18:26] * AryehGregor asks a Debian maintainer he knows
# [18:26] <erlehmann> *I* never saw the point in “firefox already running, close firefox”. Can't the process kill the running process itself? Or at least offer that as an option?
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> Oh, he's not around.
# [18:27] <erlehmann> ubuntu makes exceptions. debian, as if.
# [18:27] <AryehGregor> Or figure out if it's exiting, and wait for it to exit if it is.
# [18:27] <erlehmann> debian is a nomic game. no exceptions!
# [18:32] <AryehGregor> Yes, my Debian maintainer acquaintance confirms that they'll just handle backporting all security fixes themselves for three or four years.
# [18:36] <AryehGregor> Which I'm a bit skeptical of, since I've seen MediaWiki security updates that require intricate rewrites of large swathes of core code.
# [18:36] <wilhelm> That sounds even riskier than making exceptions for certain packages.
# [18:36] <Ms2ger> Fortunately, nobody uses debian, so they won't be targeted
# [18:36] <AryehGregor> Not to mention that I've seen Debian maintainer changes that completely broke the functionality of security-critical packages (i.e., OpenSSL) because the maintainers didn't understand the code.
# [18:37] <wilhelm> “Just patching” a browser without being able to use the browser vendor's testing infrastructure is madness.
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# [18:37] <AryehGregor> Well, for most security patches it's probably fine.
# [18:37] <AryehGregor> Add a bounds check or check for a null pointer or whatever.
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# [18:37] <Ms2ger> wilhelm, this is open source, they have access to the testing infra ;)
# [18:38] <wilhelm> Ms2ger: I certainly hope they do make use if it, then. (c;
# [18:38] <Ms2ger> Ah, that we can't control :)
# [18:39] <AryehGregor> Especially since Debian doesn't even use your trademarks.
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> debian packagers do many arbitrary and misguided patches all the time
# [18:40] <Ms2ger> That's their job, after all
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> that's what makes using de Ian fun
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> * using debian fun
# [18:44] <wilhelm> It's great on servers. I wouldn't want to use anything else. On my workstations, however, I use something slightly more pragmatic. (c:
# [18:45] <AryehGregor> I just use Ubuntu across the board. Works for me.
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# [18:47] <zewt> i stopped using ubuntu recently, went back to debian ... had too many ubuntu upgrades fail catastrophically
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> Yeah, Ubuntu upgrades tend to be a little more exciting than I'd like.
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> But then, from what I've heard, the same is true of every Linux distro with a sane release cycle.
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> (I.e., Ubuntu, Fedora, and . . . that's about it)
# [18:51] * Philip` has upgraded Gentoo incrementally for years and it's almost always worked fine
# [18:52] <Philip`> and much less disruptive than upgrading the entire distro at once
# [18:53] <AryehGregor> Yes, the problem with distro upgrades is they're usually all at once.
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# [18:54] <Philip`> Maybe Ubuntu should switch to a 6-week major release cycle
# [18:54] <Philip`> 11.04, 11.05.5, 11.07, 11.08.5, etc
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# [18:55] <Philip`> (with an occasional LTS release that they support for 12 weeks for people who need stability)
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# [19:02] <AryehGregor> I suggest you file the suggestion on Ubuntu Brainstorm.
# [19:02] <AryehGregor> It has great advantages, like not having to have exceptions for Firefox and Chrome.
# [19:03] <zewt> suggesting it to theonion instead
# [19:05] <AryehGregor> Too techy for them.
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# [19:06] <zewt> dated releases would definitely make more sense for firefox and chrome than numbered releases, though
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# [19:07] <Ms2ger> Firefox 2011.06? Oh no, that must be an enormous update!
# [19:08] <zewt> heh
# [19:08] <kbrosnan> might run out of numbers
# [19:08] <AryehGregor> Hmm, what's supposed to happen if two editorial assistants disagree about whether to WONTFIX a bug?
# [19:09] <Ms2ger> Escalate to the Editor?
# [19:09] * AryehGregor wants to reopen http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12471, but just reopened another bug that annevk closed just a few minutes ago
# [19:09] <MikeSmith> fight
# [19:09] <zewt> cage match
# [19:10] <MikeSmith> more like poke on
# [19:10] <MikeSmith> * pokemon
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# [19:18] <AryehGregor> annevk, hsivonen, what should we do if one of us thinks something should be WONTFIX and another one disagrees?
# [19:18] <AryehGregor> (I'd ask zcorpan too, but he's not here)
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# [19:18] <annevk> I would have asked Hixie first
# [19:19] <annevk> Also, he reads the bugmail so he would reopen if he disagrees
# [19:19] <annevk> And if you disagree with Hixie well then it's the normal process
# [19:20] <AryehGregor> Is he actually going to make sure to look at all the bugs we WONTFIX? Surely that defeats the point?
# [19:20] <estellevw> Should an empty string as the value of the form attribute, form="", disassociate the element from the form of which the element is a descendant? Not that there is a reason to, but is this a way to get a form element to not submit with its parent form? Opera seems to say yes. Chrome seems to say no.
# [19:20] <annevk> AryehGregor, looking costs way less time than taking action
# [19:20] * Ms2ger thought Hixie didn't read bugmail
# [19:20] <estellevw> If the element's form owner is not null, and the element's form content attribute is not present, and the element's form owner is its nearest form element ancestor , then the form element ancestor is the owner. But if the form owner is listed as null via the attribute, does it disassociate from it's ancestor form in which it is contained? if so, should the spec not explicitly state that?
# [19:20] <estellevw> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#attr-fae-form
# [19:20] <annevk> estellevw, there's an open bug on whether that should be valid
# [19:21] <annevk> estellevw, what Chrome does is a bug per the current spec
# [19:21] <estellevw> thank you annevk
# [19:21] <AryehGregor> Actually, I should ask Hixie too: what should we do if one of us WONTFIXes a bug and another one disagrees? Reopen, leave it closed? Will you wind up looking at the bugs anyway or not?
# [19:21] <AryehGregor> estellevw, if you want to know whether it's supposed to get submitted, look at the form submission algorithm.
# [19:21] <AryehGregor> That's the important part.
# [19:21] <estellevw> my interpretation is that it shouldn't
# [19:22] <annevk> estellevw, that's correct
# [19:22] <annevk> i.e. Opera is correct
# [19:22] <estellevw> the spec is fairly clear, but i think stating that directly would help site authors
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# [19:24] <annevk> estellevw, please add your thoughts to http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12241
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# [19:43] <Hixie> i don't read the bugmail
# [19:44] <Hixie> the people who are "editor's assistants" are all people i trust to make the right calls
# [19:45] <Hixie> (specifically, i have a script that filters out any bugmail from bugs that are resolved. every few hours, it deletes all bugmails but one from all bugs, and all bugmails from resolved bugs.)
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# [19:49] <AryehGregor> Hixie, so if two of us disagree, should we leave the bug open for you to decide, or what?
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# [20:06] <Hixie> AryehGregor: if you disagree then you should work out why you disagree (is one of you missing information? do you have different priorities? etc)
# [20:07] <AryehGregor> Hixie, the specific case is <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12471>, where I think the rendering section should match what browsers do and Anne thinks it should continue to use new CSS features in a way that browsers don't actually do.
# [20:08] <AryehGregor> I think in practice people are going to have this kind of minor disagreement of priorities pretty regularly.
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# [20:08] <Ms2ger> Because escalating to Hixie would mean more work for Hixie, and we don't want that :)
# [20:08] <AryehGregor> So we should have something to do other than just argue about it.
# [20:08] <AryehGregor> In particular, I don't think it's a good idea to wontfix anything that at least one editorial assistant thinks should be wontfixed, because then we'll tend to wontfix an excessive number of bugs.
# [20:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: then either one of you will change his mind based on new information, or you will come to realise you have two axiomatically different ideas (e.g. one of you thinks it's ok to have the spec be future-looking and the other thinks the spec should be literally useful at every instant of time)
# [20:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: in the latter case, just put the two axioms in the bug and reopen it and i'll pick one, i guess
# [20:09] <AryehGregor> Well, I'd say it's more of a slight difference of priorities than axiomatically different ideas. This is fuzzy logic here, not boolean.
# [20:09] <Ms2ger> Boo, fuzzy logic
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# [20:10] <Hixie> why do you have different priorities? at some level, there has to be a clear difference in axioms or available information to come to a different conclusion
# [20:11] <AryehGregor> No, we have basically the same priorities (at least in common cases), we just weight them slightly differently.
# [20:11] <Hixie> the relative order of priorities _is_ one's priorities
# [20:12] <AryehGregor> It's not just ordering, because multiple priorities can be relevant. Both of us agree that we should use new CSS features if they're best suited to the task, and also that we should match how browsers behave.
# [20:12] <AryehGregor> In this case it's a tradeoff: is the small compat break worth the small gain in simplicity/utility/comprehensibility?
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# [20:13] <AryehGregor> I'd say that it might be, but we should wait till at least one major browser is willing to switch before the spec switches, rather than having the spec not reflect reality at all for some indefinite period of time.
# [20:15] <Hixie> and someone else thinks differently?
# [20:16] <AryehGregor> Apparently Anne thinks differently, if I understand him right.
# [20:16] <AryehGregor> You seem to think differently with respect to Web Storage and structured clones. :)
# [20:18] <Hixie> no i think the spec will change i just don't think it's a high priority. i didn't wontfix that bug, i just haven't touched it.
# [20:18] <Hixie> anyway, my recommendation would be to get anne, figure out why you disagree, then put that in the bug and reopen it
# [20:19] <AryehGregor> Already done, more or less.
# [20:19] <Hixie> cool
# [20:19] <AryehGregor> I don't think there's much point spending the effort on figuring out why we disagree, since it's a minor issue and we have better things to do.
# [20:19] <AryehGregor> This sort of disagreement is best handled by arbitration (i.e., you) for the sake of efficiency, instead of attempting to reach consensus.
# [20:20] <Hixie> i'm not saying you should reach consensus
# [20:20] <Hixie> i'm saying you should understand your differences and explain them
# [20:20] <Hixie> mostly i'm saying this because i think most of the time if you do that one of you will change his mind
# [20:20] <AryehGregor> I think that's been adequately done.
# [20:21] <Hixie> at a higher level, i'm aiming to write the spec we'll have in n years, so if we know something is temporary (as opposed to something where we don't know what'll happen, which if i understand correctly is the case here?) then i'd rather not do the temporary thing
# [20:21] <AryehGregor> I think you have an excessive faith in people's ability to work out their disagreements by reasoning. Different people have different priors, and there's no sound way to pick common priors even if everyone were a perfect Bayesian reasoning machine, so there's a certain degree of arbitrariness in everything.
# [20:22] <AryehGregor> I'm not aware of any implementers who have said they want to change to using underline instead of border-bottom for abbr/acronym. If anyone major changes, then I agree we should wontfix.
# [20:22] <Hixie> oh i don't think that this would work for most people
# [20:22] <Ms2ger> Does anybody implement t-u:dotted?
# [20:22] <Ms2ger> Hmm, maybe we do
# [20:22] <Hixie> i am, however, pretty sure that the people who are "editor's assistants" are of that caliber
# [20:23] <AryehGregor> I don't think it will work *reliably* for people of any caliber, even if they mostly agree. What you'll have instead is they'll come to an amicable agreement because they don't disagree very strongly to start with.
# [20:23] <Hixie> and if you're not, i was wrong to delegate to you :-P
# [20:25] <Hixie> my assumption here is that the decisions being made are logical decisions based on rational thought, and those discussions can almost always be boiled down to a clear statement of different axioms
# [20:25] <Hixie> and most of the time, one of the people will realise his axioms are inferior
# [20:25] <Hixie> imho
# [20:26] <AryehGregor> I've long thought your position on that issue is not realistic at all.
# [20:27] <AryehGregor> But it doesn't matter much for our purposes.
# [20:28] <Ms2ger> Did you just admit your axioms were inferior? ;)
# [20:28] <Ms2ger> (And Gecko does support text-decoration-style, prefixed)
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# [20:38] <zewt> dreaming of the day "do this automatically for files like this" in Firefox actually works
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# [20:41] <zewt> or at least, doesn't show up when it won't work (C-D: attachment)
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# [20:42] <zewt> looks like they've improved the wrong-mime-type handling; I think in 4 a bad mime type would bring up that dialog every time, regardless of any other type discovery methods
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# [20:50] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I probably shouldn't change the priority/severity of old bugs en masse, because it would wreck up all the last-changed dates.
# [20:50] <Ms2ger> Please don't touch mine, but update all others as much as you like ;)
# [20:53] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: sometimes I wish there was a way to change bugs without changing a last mod date
# [20:54] <Ms2ger> Doesn't that kind of defeat the point?
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> Depends what people use the last change date for.
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> In this case, we really want a last comment date.
# [20:55] <Philip`> Also a way to change them without spamming people with bugmail
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> That too.
# [20:55] <The_8472> or a minor change/bulk change flag, like mediawiki has
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# [21:04] <scor> can someone explain why <link> tags can be present in the body of an HTML5 document in the examples at http://dev.w3.org/html5/md/#examples although from what I've read online, <link> is only allowed inside <head>
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# [21:05] <Ms2ger> scor, when using microdata, that restriction is lifted
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# [21:05] <scor> interesting, but where is that documented?
# [21:05] <Philip`> scor: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/semantics.html#the-link-element says it depends on whether there's an itemprop attribute
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# [21:06] <Ms2ger> scor, I thought it was in the md spec somewhere, but I suggest using the WHATWG spec
# [21:06] <scor> ah, so I was probably looking at the wrong version... this hasn't trickled to the w3.org version yet?
# [21:07] <AryehGregor> I think the latest MD draft on the W3C has it, but probably not the TR.
# [21:07] <AryehGregor> It was recently changed, IIRC.
# [21:07] <Ms2ger> Yeah, but that was a link to dev.
# [21:07] <AryehGregor> Previously it was pretending not to depend on HTML5, so it didn't do things like change conformance requirements.
# [21:08] <Ms2ger> Oh, 4.1 Content models
# [21:09] <scor> how do validators know about this particular rule, is this rule also available as machine readable data, or is it hard coded in validators?
# [21:10] <AryehGregor> There is no official machine-readable source of authoring conformance requirements for HTML5.
# [21:10] <AryehGregor> Only the prose in the spec.
# [21:10] <AryehGregor> The one existing validator uses a mix of RelaxNG and hand-coded Java, as I understand it.
# [21:10] <scor> ah, ok, not equivalent of the DTD then
# [21:10] <AryehGregor> No, no official equivalent.
# [21:10] <scor> thanks AryehGregor
# [21:11] <scor> Philip`: Ms2ger thanks for the pointer!
# [21:11] <AryehGregor> Hixie, what "Status:" do you usually use in the boilerplate for WORKSFORME? "Accepted"?
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# [21:11] <Ms2ger> Np
# [21:11] <Philip`> The idea is that it's the validator developer's job to work out how to write code to check conformance, not the spec writer's job
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# [21:17] <scor> I see
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# [21:54] <Yuhong> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/e5sxd/netscape_navigator_on_the_acid_3_test/c15kkg6
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# [21:54] <Yuhong> Wonder what this comes from.
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# [21:57] <Philip`> It's not too hot on http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/nn2/acid2.png either
# [21:58] <Yuhong> I am talking about "Google scores 69/100 on that test (google for "acid3 test" and watch thumbnail)."
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# [22:26] <llrcombs> I wonder how Google runs their thumbnail renderer
# [22:26] <llrcombs> probably a customized WebKit
# [22:27] <AryehGregor> Should be easy to test.
# [22:27] <AryehGregor> Find a page that exhibits an easily-visible WebKit bug.
# [22:27] <AryehGregor> I can't see what else they'd use, though.
# [22:28] <llrcombs> or make a page that JSON-dumps window.navigator in a giant font in the middle of a page
# [22:28] <AryehGregor> Do they run JS for the thumbnails?
# [22:28] <zewt> does anyone, anywhere actually find the google thumbnail thing useful? heh
# [22:28] <AryehGregor> No.
# [22:28] <AryehGregor> It only manages to annoy me.
# [22:28] <zewt> its main purpose seems to be to pop up unwanted
# [22:29] <llrcombs> AryehGregor: they must, if Acid3 runs
# [22:29] <Yuhong> Yea, exactly. I was looking for an answer from a Google employee like Hixie.
# [22:29] <AryehGregor> The Google employees who hang out here don't work on the search engine, and if they know anything about it they're probably not authorized to talk about it.
# [22:30] <llrcombs> the thumbnail for Acid3 for me shows 99/100
# [22:30] <AryehGregor> Oh, I didn't see the conversation above.
# [22:30] <Yuhong> Now.
# [22:30] <llrcombs> _I_ get 69/100 on Safari 5.1
# [22:30] <llrcombs> lemme try without extensions
# [22:31] <llrcombs> 100/100
# [22:31] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jun/0366.html
# [22:31] <karlcow> TAG issue on HTML+RDFa and Microdata last call drafts
# [22:41] <AryehGregor> It will really depend who's on the task force.
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# [22:44] <Yuhong> Google for "site:quirksmode.org browser detection you are using" and view the thumbnail on the first result.
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# [22:52] <Philip`> Is there some term for the GUI design where you have a vertical list of items, and if you click one then it expands into a sublist of items and pushes all the other top-level items down (until you click on one of those and the first one collapses and the new one expands)?
# [22:54] <hober> sicking: ping
# [22:55] <sicking> hober: pong. I'm working on it now :(
# [22:55] <miketaylr> Philip`: like a tree widget?
# [22:55] <hober> sicking: cool. sorry for being so naggy
# [22:55] <sicking> hober: no worries, this was much much later than i had hoped to finish :(
# [22:56] <hober> sicking: *nod*
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# [22:58] <Philip`> miketaylr: Vaguely similar but where you can only expand a single branch at once
# [22:59] <miketaylr> oh, hmm
# [22:59] <Philip`> Or, sort of like menus with submenus, except the submenus are inserted inline instead of being off to the side
# [23:02] <miketaylr> the only thing that comes to mind is a jquery plugin that filament group did: http://www.filamentgroup.com/lab/jquery_ipod_style_and_flyout_menus/
# [23:02] <miketaylr> (the 2nd example)
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# [23:48] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yes
# [23:49] <Hixie> AryehGregor: btw i have some bookmarklets for this stuff, let me put them on the wiki
# [23:50] <Hixie> i guess you don't need the "accepted" ones
# [23:52] <Hixie> hm, wikipedia won't let me do JS links
# [23:52] <Hixie> AryehGregor: is there some way to put bookmarklets on a mediawiki?
# [23:52] <Hixie> s/wikipedia/mediawiki/ above)(
# [23:52] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you can't directly link them, no. You can paste them as text.
# [23:53] <Hixie> laame
# [23:53] <AryehGregor> We kind of don't want random people off the Internet running arbitrary JavaScript as en.wikipedia.org, if it's all the same to you. :)
# [23:54] <AryehGregor> Just replace all the external links on a page with javascript: links that behave the same but forward the user's cookies to an attacker . . .
# [23:54] <AryehGregor> (we use HttpOnly, but still)
# [23:54] <AryehGregor> Only "safe protocols
# [23:54] <AryehGregor> Only "safe" protocols are whitelisted, which have no side-effects.
# [23:54] <AryehGregor> We also don't whitelist some things like (IIRC) jabber that can send messages if you just click the link.
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# [23:55] <Hixie> ah man you can't link to a data: URL either!
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# [23:56] <AryehGregor> That might make sense to allow, since it's relatively safe.
# [23:56] <AryehGregor> But this is whitelist-based, yeah.
# [23:58] <Hixie> ok see the bottom of http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Bugzilla_conventions
# [23:58] <Hixie> click them while on a bug
# [23:58] <Hixie> heycam|away: yt?
# Session Close: Sat Jun 25 00:00:00 2011

The end :)