/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 07 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <heycam> jamesr, ah right, yeah we should get on that
  4. # [00:00] <zewt> there was some discussion about that recently--don't remember if it was only in here or on the list too
  5. # [00:01] <jamesr> one of the timing APIs specs a better clock internally, but doesn't expose it. webaudio has a better clock too, but it's specific to webaudio
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  7. # [00:01] <jamesr> mozilla had (has?) the animationStartTime global, but i'm not sure how that responds to system clock changes
  8. # [00:01] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  9. # [00:01] <heycam> jamesr, I am not sure either
  10. # [00:01] <zewt> audio can sometimes want to use a clock owned by the audio hardware or drivers, so having that separate might make sense anyway
  11. # [00:02] <zewt> afk
  12. # [00:02] <nlogax> whatever happens when pressing escape is what i would like to do, but with JS :)
  13. # [00:02] <nlogax> but can't find it
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  21. # [00:23] <Hixie> foolip: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#associating-names-with-items look good?
  22. # [00:23] <Hixie> foolip: (i am about to start updating the other algorithms to break loops, not done that yet)
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  24. # [00:31] <Hixie> what's the term meaning the set that contains all items included in the graph if you start at one node and just walk the graph
  25. # [00:31] <Hixie> the something something
  26. # [00:31] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
  27. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> The largest connected component containing that node?
  28. # [00:32] <Hixie> there's a shorter term for it
  29. # [00:32] * AryehGregor doesn't know any graph theory, can't help more than that
  30. # [00:33] <Hixie> man i am completely blanking here
  31. # [00:33] <heycam> are you thinking of the term "transitive closure"?
  32. # [00:33] <Hixie> yes!
  33. # [00:33] <Hixie> thank you.
  34. # [00:34] <heycam> I think "transitive closure" by itself doesn't necessarily mean just walk the graph; I think it only means something if you give it some relation
  35. # [00:34] <heycam> so I'm not exactly sure how to use it correctly
  36. # [00:34] <Hixie> yeah my definition wasn't great
  37. # [00:34] <Hixie> but it got me the term i was looking for, so good enough!
  38. # [00:34] <jamesr> do you want the connected component containing the node?
  39. # [00:35] <jamesr> assuming this is an undirected graph
  40. # [00:35] <Hixie> the term i was looking for is transitive closure, i was just having a mind blank
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  47. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: "transitive closure" doesn't make sense by itself, for the reason heycam gave - it needs a relation.
  48. # [00:39] <Hixie> yes, i am aware :-)
  49. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> If your relation is "neighbor of", then taking the transitive closure gives you the largest connected component including your starting node, which is what you want.
  50. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> (Via the fact that, after taking the transitive closure, all reachable nodes now return true for the new relation you defined.)
  51. # [00:42] * Joins: [tm] (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net)
  52. # [00:44] <jamesr> i think "largest" is redundant, connected component implies it contains all connected nodes
  53. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> No it doesn't.
  54. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> The largest connected component probably includes a lot of smaller connected components.
  55. # [00:45] <Hixie> tab speaks the truth
  56. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> (You're allowed to ignore neighbors if you want, after all.)
  57. # [00:45] * Hixie defines a conformance criteria in terms of a constraint rather than steps, for once
  58. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> FINALLY
  59. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> ^_^
  60. # [00:45] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@80.203.92.114)
  61. # [00:45] <Hixie> :-D
  62. # [00:46] * TabAtkins keeps defining conformance criteria in terms of "use a cycle detector".
  63. # [00:46] <Hixie> heh
  64. # [00:47] <Hixie> specifically:
  65. # [00:47] <Hixie> "All itemref attributes in a Document must be such that the graph formed from representing each item in the Document as a node in the graph and each property of an item whose value is another item as an edge in the graph connecting those two items does not contain any cycles."
  66. # [00:47] <Hixie> that's a pretty horrible sentence, mind you
  67. # [00:47] <Hixie> let me rephrase it into english
  68. # [00:47] <jamesr> wut
  69. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Yay, I was (barely) able to parse it using my native english facilities!
  70. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> (Rather than the deductive variant of english I consciously learned later.)
  71. # [00:49] <Hixie> well that's a new error from anolis
  72. # [00:50] <Hixie> (some sort of httplib error)
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  78. # [01:00] <Hixie> if a vcard A has as agent a vcard B and vice versa
  79. # [01:00] <Hixie> what should B's AGENT line say?
  80. # [01:01] <Hixie> (A's AGENT line is B's entire vCard)
  81. # [01:02] <Hixie> AGENT;VALUE=TEXT:ERROR ?
  82. # [01:03] * Quits: oknoway (~oknoway@72.11.82.226) (Quit: oknoway)
  83. # [01:03] <annevk> HTML should start using Ms2ger's Anolis
  84. # [01:03] <Hixie> i use whatever jgraham uses
  85. # [01:03] <Hixie> pimpmyspec baby
  86. # [01:03] <Hixie> what does ms2ger's do that's different?
  87. # [01:03] <annevk> xspec xref
  88. # [01:03] <Hixie> how?
  89. # [01:04] <annevk> using https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/specification-data
  90. # [01:04] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@178.74.10.250) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  91. # [01:04] <annevk> some kind of repository with references and linkable terms in other specs
  92. # [01:05] <Hixie> please tell me that's automatically generated somehow
  93. # [01:05] <annevk> and then you use <span data-anolis-ref>HTML</span> for a reference
  94. # [01:05] <AryehGregor> It is for all specs except HTML, I think.
  95. # [01:05] <Hixie> personally i'd much rather cross-spec xrefs be opt-in rather than automatic... what happens if we have a conflict? or don't we?
  96. # [01:05] <annevk> and <code data-anolis-spec=domcore>Node</code>
  97. # [01:05] <Hixie> oh
  98. # [01:05] <AryehGregor> You have to say which spec you're referring to.
  99. # [01:05] <annevk> for terms
  100. # [01:06] <annevk> the dictionary maps terms to fragment identifiers
  101. # [01:06] <annevk> it's auto-generated most of the time, but for IETF specs that doesn't really work
  102. # [01:06] <Hixie> i don't mind listing the terms once, but i'm definitely not going to keep track of what spec things are where all the time
  103. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> The makefiles for DOM Core and DOM Range generate the data files for them automatically.
  104. # [01:06] <Hixie> can't we make this all automatic?
  105. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> I suggested we shouldn't need data-anolis-spec.
  106. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> Conflicts should be handled statically somehow when parsing the data files.
  107. # [01:06] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
  108. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> Or just be an error on use, or whatever.
  109. # [01:07] <annevk> Yeah, maybe we can get rid of data-anolis-spec
  110. # [01:07] <annevk> by having specs use less conflicting terms
  111. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> But personally I was too lazy to fix it, so I gave up on typing it out manually and wrote a preprocessor.
  112. # [01:07] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.201)
  113. # [01:07] <Hixie> right now what i do is have a section of the spec that basically "imports" the terms from the other spec
  114. # [01:07] <Hixie> this makes it work for print media too
  115. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> Even without data-anolis-spec, typing stuff like title=dom-Document-createElement all the time is murderous.
  116. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> This works for print media as well.
  117. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> It uses generated content.
  118. # [01:08] <Hixie> can we just have a data-foo thingy that we put on a <dfn> that says "this term is actually defined over there"?
  119. # [01:08] <Hixie> i guess that's a bit more maintenance
  120. # [01:08] <Hixie> i dunno
  121. # [01:08] <Hixie> anyway
  122. # [01:08] <AryehGregor> Something like @media print { [data-anolis-spec]::after { content: attr(data-anolis-spec); text-transform: uppercase } } or whatever.
  123. # [01:08] <Hixie> i'm happy to use whatever if it makes things better
  124. # [01:08] <AryehGregor> It's not tenable to do that given the number of terms we have to reference.
  125. # [01:08] <AryehGregor> DOM Range uses zillions of terms from DOM Core and HTML.
  126. # [01:08] <Hixie> we really should reduce the number of specs, man
  127. # [01:09] <Hixie> DOM Range should just be in DOM Core
  128. # [01:09] <AryehGregor> HTML isn't so affected because it mostly just defines stuff itself.
  129. # [01:09] <annevk> not if DOM Range depends on HTML
  130. # [01:09] <AryehGregor> I don't think we need to merge specs if we have good xspec xrefs.
  131. # [01:09] <Hixie> merging specs is for sanity of not having a bazillion specs, not for the xrefs
  132. # [01:09] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-agifpfvwlwtfprof)
  133. # [01:09] <Hixie> we should have like a dozen or so core specs for the web platform
  134. # [01:10] <AryehGregor> I think only the Selection part of DOM Range depends on HTML.
  135. # [01:10] <annevk> yeah, but we first need to figure out the Web platform
  136. # [01:10] <annevk> then we can organize :)
  137. # [01:11] <annevk> I mean, we don't even agree on mutation listeners
  138. # [01:11] <annevk> :p
  139. # [01:12] <annevk> oh, IE10 is removing conditional comments
  140. # [01:12] <annevk> about time
  141. # [01:12] <AryehGregor> Yay.
  142. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Where'd you get the VALUE=TEXT:ERROR thing from?
  143. # [01:12] * TabAtkins just read the vcard spec and, as expected, this situation is not addressed.
  144. # [01:12] <annevk> ms2ger, ^^ all of the above :)
  145. # [01:13] <Hixie> core (dom core, dom events, dom range), i/o (xhr, cors, fetch, from-origin, sniffing, file api), user interaction (mouse events, geo, touch, wheel, device orientation), semantics/api (html, web workers, clipboard, aria), css, svg, mathml, js, unicode, http, woff, webgl, indexeddb...
  146. # [01:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: just made it up
  147. # [01:14] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah vCard is a spec from the old times
  148. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ah, kk.
  149. # [01:14] <jamesr> Hixie: audio
  150. # [01:14] <Hixie> jamesr: part of html
  151. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I could tell from the fact that it's a Word doc.
  152. # [01:14] <jamesr> webaudio isn't (and imo shouldn't be, it's a leaf node)
  153. # [01:14] <Hixie> jamesr: along with webrtc, video, etc
  154. # [01:14] <jamesr> the <audio> tag is html and insufficient
  155. # [01:14] <Hixie> jamesr: i'm saying webaudio should be in the same spec as web workers
  156. # [01:15] <Hixie> jamesr: "semantics/api"
  157. # [01:15] <roc> webaudio should not be in a silo of its own
  158. # [01:16] <Hixie> (note that what i'm saying here doesn't map to who should be working on what)
  159. # [01:16] <roc> I guess jamesr hasn't seen my rant about this, because the Audio WG is off in a silo of its own!
  160. # [01:16] <Hixie> heh
  161. # [01:16] <jamesr> yeah, why is that?
  162. # [01:16] <Hixie> why is what?
  163. # [01:16] <roc> because that's the way the W3C works
  164. # [01:16] <jamesr> hm
  165. # [01:17] <jamesr> do we have another process set up other than 'email everything to the whatwg list'?
  166. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Argh, I forget how to get the coordinates of a click relative to the clicked element. ;_;
  167. # [01:17] <jamesr> the web perf WG is another problem, but i don't intend to do anything important enough there for it to matter
  168. # [01:18] <Hixie> jamesr: i'm talking about how we publish specs, not how we write them
  169. # [01:18] <annevk> TabAtkins, offsetX/Y
  170. # [01:19] <roc> unfortunately how we write specs strongly influences how they get published, and how they are designed too
  171. # [01:20] <Hixie> yeah
  172. # [01:20] <annevk> not so much guidelines for writing specs :(
  173. # [01:20] <Hixie> we're in much need of overhaul of much more important stuff before we starting worrying about how we split the specs
  174. # [01:20] <Hixie> i'm just blue-skying here
  175. # [01:21] <annevk> also need some kind of manual to tell people how to write specs
  176. # [01:21] <roc> for example, I think one reason the Audio WG doesn't like my proposal for general media stream processing, is that they're the Audio WG and they're not chartered for or interested in general media stream processing
  177. # [01:21] <jamesr> annevk: does anything anywhere define what the DOMTimestamp on events represent, precisely?
  178. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Yay for Conway's Law!
  179. # [01:21] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:226:bbff:fe05:3fe1)
  180. # [01:21] <Hixie> annevk: we have a wiki page on whatwg.org, i've helped a bit with it. i'd love to help more but don't want to do it all myself. :-)
  181. # [01:22] <annevk> jamesr, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-event-timestamp
  182. # [01:22] <annevk> Hixie, good point, maybe once I'm back from Berlin I'll remember that and fix it up a bit
  183. # [01:22] <jamesr> ok, so same as ECMAScript Date.now()
  184. # [01:22] <annevk> jamesr, the definition of DOMTimeStamp is in Web IDL btw
  185. # [01:22] <Hixie> roc: implementations win
  186. # [01:22] <jamesr> yeah, i'm interested in the value not the representation
  187. # [01:22] <jamesr> thanks
  188. # [01:23] <Hixie> roc: are there implementations of either of the proposals?
  189. # [01:23] <roc> jamesr: the relevant thread is here, if you care: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2011AprJun/0102.html
  190. # [01:24] <roc> Hixie: yes, Chris Rogers has his in Chrome and I'm working on one
  191. # [01:24] <jamesr> oh doug
  192. # [01:24] <roc> doug was mostly an innocent bystander in this case
  193. # [01:24] <jamesr> with a bad suggestion
  194. # [01:25] <roc> Hixie: yes, implementations win, but that's not always a god thing
  195. # [01:25] <roc> er, a good thing
  196. # [01:25] <Hixie> i wasn't making a value judgement
  197. # [01:26] <Hixie> merely observing reality :-)
  198. # [01:26] <roc> I thought so
  199. # [01:26] <Hixie> looks like i said so in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2011AprJun/0118.html too :-)
  200. # [01:27] <Hixie> personally i know nothing about audio so i'm really not in a position to make a proposal
  201. # [01:27] <roc> for other people, saying the exact same thing would amount to a value judgment
  202. # [01:27] <jamesr> as per your last point audio APIs are one of the main drivers of flash in a lot of cases
  203. # [01:27] <Hixie> (that was the case with video conferencing too; after nobody did anything for like a year i finally broke down and taught myself the relevant specs and wrote up the PeerConnection proposal. i don't intend to do that with audio.)
  204. # [01:28] <Hixie> roc: true
  205. # [01:28] <jamesr> angry birds would be 100% web platform if there was decent audio support on the web
  206. # [01:28] <roc> actually
  207. # [01:28] <roc> it turns out that most of today's Web games don't need new Web API
  208. # [01:29] <annevk> Hixie, btw, is PeerConnection mostly for client-server still?
  209. # [01:29] <annevk> Hixie, it doesn't really read like it could be client-client as well
  210. # [01:29] <Hixie> annevk: PeerConnection is for peer-to-peer
  211. # [01:29] <Hixie> hence the name
  212. # [01:29] <Hixie> it does NAT traversal
  213. # [01:29] <annevk> Hixie, but the initiation talks about servers
  214. # [01:29] <annevk> Hixie, I missed that
  215. # [01:30] <roc> they just want to play preloaded sounds with low latency, and would be served just fine with a bunch of <audio preload>s and getElementById(id).clone().play() if that was implemented well
  216. # [01:30] <Hixie> annevk: well, yeah, you can't connect two peers without them having some sort of signaling channel to coordinate things
  217. # [01:30] <roc> see the comments from the Zynga guys later in the thread
  218. # [01:30] <Hixie> annevk: and that means a server to coordinate things
  219. # [01:30] <roc> same goes for Angry Birds, AFAIK
  220. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Low-latency audio with <audio> actually isn't *that* hard to hack around.
  221. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> http://xanthir.com/demos/collidingcircles demonstrates it, frex.
  222. # [01:30] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@128.250.195.138)
  223. # [01:31] <annevk> Hixie, I see, because the previous idea was that they would connect to each other based on some keys
  224. # [01:31] <roc> There are ... implementation issues: http://www.phoboslab.org/log/2011/03/the-state-of-html5-audio
  225. # [01:31] <annevk> Hixie, and the way the keys were exchanged was up to the site
  226. # [01:31] <jamesr> TabAtkins: is that just keeping a bag of <audio>s around?
  227. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> roc: Yes, thus the "hack around" part.
  228. # [01:31] <Hixie> annevk: it's basically still like that
  229. # [01:31] <Hixie> annevk: you get a callback that gives you the "keys" (actually an SDP payload)
  230. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> jamesr: Yeah, I generate 10 <audio>s per sound, and cycle through them everytime I play that particular sound.
  231. # [01:31] <Hixie> annevk: and you get it to the other side somehow
  232. # [01:32] <jamesr> TabAtkins: doesn't really scale when you are trying to implement quake and have hundreds of sounds that you might want to play and you might need to overlap them dozens of times on top of each other
  233. # [01:32] <Hixie> annevk: and then you pass the "keys" to the other browser
  234. # [01:32] <Hixie> annevk: and so on back and forth
  235. # [01:32] <jamesr> and you need to distance-fade them and adjust some samples to come in one ear more strongly than the other
  236. # [01:32] <Hixie> annevk: with all the video and audio and udp data going straight peer-to-peer
  237. # [01:32] <annevk> I guess I should read it more closely, thanks
  238. # [01:32] <jamesr> or pan the sample from one ear to the other as it plays (and the rocket wooshes by)
  239. # [01:32] <Hixie> annevk: i haven't written a good intro
  240. # [01:32] <Hixie> annevk: it's on my list
  241. # [01:32] <jamesr> which you definitely don't have CPU time to do in javascript
  242. # [01:32] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  243. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> jamesr: An actual games company came up with another technique where you concatenate all your sounds and seek. That way you only need to have as many audios as you plan to have *total* sounds playing at once.
  244. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> That requires a bit more expertise, though.
  245. # [01:33] <jamesr> and a really really big continuous audio sample
  246. # [01:33] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  247. # [01:33] <jamesr> or rather a few dozen copies of it
  248. # [01:33] <roc> what was my last message?
  249. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  250. # [01:33] <jamesr> roc: There are ... implementation issues: http://www.phoboslab.org/log/2011/03/the-state-of-html5-audio
  251. # [01:33] <zewt> jamesr: can't really do it in javascript anyway if you want to support things like hardware surround
  252. # [01:34] <jamesr> true
  253. # [01:34] <zewt> environmental audio, etc
  254. # [01:34] <roc> 3D spatialization definitely needs new API
  255. # [01:34] <roc> Angry Birds and Zynga games do not
  256. # [01:34] <zewt> roc: well, it's debatable whether 3d audio vs. 2d audio should be separate APIs or not
  257. # [01:35] <roc> they should be tightly integrated
  258. # [01:35] <jamesr> they could use 2d spatialization, it'd be basically free if the API was designed well
  259. # [01:35] <roc> but we already have an API for playing sound samples
  260. # [01:35] <roc> <audio>
  261. # [01:35] <zewt> angry birds could certainly make use of stereo (whether it does or not I don't know)
  262. # [01:35] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  263. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> zewt: They either use or fake stereo on Android, at least - as you scroll away from pigs, their grunts get quieter.
  264. # [01:35] <Philip`> Just wrap OpenAL and call it WebAL
  265. # [01:36] <jamesr> Philip`: i think khronos proposed that :/
  266. # [01:36] * Philip` 's experience with OpenAL has not been universally positive
  267. # [01:36] <zewt> i know environmental audio APIs can be pretty stupidly complex; trying to represent their whole vocabulary in a generic API is probably hopeless
  268. # [01:36] <roc> the Zynga guys didn't ask for spatialization
  269. # [01:36] <roc> they asked for basic sound playback to work
  270. # [01:36] <jamesr> the quake guys did
  271. # [01:36] <roc> and it doesn't
  272. # [01:37] <jamesr> yes, there are QoI issues with existing <audio>, but there are also API needs
  273. # [01:37] <Philip`> (e.g. I work on some game that uses OpenAL, and it randomly hits assertion failures on OS X and nobody has yet figured out why)
  274. # [01:37] <roc> there's both, but the QoI issues get less love, because hey, shiny new API!
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  277. # [01:37] <zewt> roc: heh
  278. # [01:38] <Philip`> (and also it breaks with Creative's OpenAL drivers on Windows so we replace it with the OpenAL Soft implementation which defeats the whole point of standards)
  279. # [01:38] <zewt> roc: but if they're built on the same underlying framework, in principle both win
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  281. # [01:38] <roc> indeed
  282. # [01:38] <zewt> i seem to remember looking at OpenAL source over a decade ago and it having pages of conditionals 10+ levels deep
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  284. # [01:38] <zewt> tried to find the code I saw later on but it seemed to have been scoured from the internet
  285. # [01:38] <roc> but, and here I reveal my biases, Chris Rogers' API and implementation are much not built on the same underlying framework
  286. # [01:39] <jamesr> what do you mean? they use the same backend as our <audio> support
  287. # [01:40] * Joins: linclark (~clark@089-101-090180.ntlworld.ie)
  288. # [01:40] <Philip`> zewt: If I remember correctly, the official reference driver was terrible, and OpenAL Soft is a reimplementation from scratch
  289. # [01:40] <jamesr> the whole stack is the same except for the API bits, and the frontend support for the webaudio features not there in <audio>
  290. # [01:40] <zewt> it was easily some of the worst code I'd ever seen
  291. # [01:40] <Philip`> s/driver/implementation/
  292. # [01:40] <roc> I mean you play samples using AudioBufferNode, not <audio>
  293. # [01:40] <zewt> then or since
  294. # [01:40] <jamesr> oh, you mean from the API pov? <audio> can be used as source nodes
  295. # [01:41] <roc> that's not very well defined
  296. # [01:41] <roc> it's not the way you're supposed to do it
  297. # [01:41] <jamesr> how so?
  298. # [01:41] <jamesr> http://chromium.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/samples/audio/specification/specification.html#MediaElementAudioSourceNode-section
  299. # [01:42] <jamesr> use one of those as a source node linked to your <audio> or <video or whatever, hook it up to an output, note()
  300. # [01:42] <roc> for example, if the audio element is paused, what happens?
  301. # [01:42] <Hixie> things can definitely be well-defined
  302. # [01:43] <Hixie> last i looked at the audio api, the whole thing was rather under-defined
  303. # [01:43] <Hixie> that's just how things are before they're mature
  304. # [01:43] <Hixie> the question is, is it the right direction at all?
  305. # [01:43] <Hixie> if there's more than one way to do things, it probably isn't (e.g. is there another way of getting audio from a file into an audio node?)
  306. # [01:44] <Hixie> if it requires a lot of code to do simple things, it probably isn't (e.g. do you have to have six lines of boilerplate code to get from <audio> to an audionode?)
  307. # [01:44] * Joins: benschwarz (~benschwar@59.167.185.148)
  308. # [01:45] <Hixie> if there are things that don't work just because parts of the api have different designs, it probably isn't (e.g. can you go from <audio> to an audio node but not from an audio node to a PeerConnection stream?)
  309. # [01:45] <Hixie> (i don't know the answers to those questions)
  310. # [01:45] <Hixie> and there's also the question "is there another concrete proposal?"
  311. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> Hixie: http://chromium.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/samples/audio/specification/specification.html#AudioElementIntegration-section
  312. # [01:46] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i know, i've talked about this with chris in front of you :-P
  313. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> Ah, I must not have been listening. ^_^
  314. # [01:46] <Hixie> :-)
  315. # [01:49] <jamesr> strawpoll on another topic: when calling setTimeout(..., 3000), if the system clock is adjusted before the timer fires all browsers except WebKit fire the timer anyway after 3000ms expire. WebKit-based browsers wait until the system clock has advanced to 3000ms past the time the system clock said when setTimeout() was called
  316. # [01:49] <jamesr> is WebKit's behavior here justifiable or just crazy land?
  317. # [01:49] <jamesr> i tested against ffx 8.01a, opera 11.something on mac and ie9/win7
  318. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> jamesr: So you mean that other browsers use a real time, while webkit goes purely off of Date()?
  319. # [01:50] <zewt> sounds like it'd break everything using timers, especially if the time is set back a lot
  320. # [01:50] <zewt> (which fortunately doesn't happen often, but)
  321. # [01:50] <jamesr> zewt: the delta of Date.now() before the callback and when it fires goes negative in other browsers
  322. # [01:50] <jamesr> actually it happens more than most people think
  323. # [01:50] <jamesr> TabAtkins: yes, for scheduling purposes
  324. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> Webkit's behavior is crazytown.
  325. # [01:54] <jamesr> k i'll just fix it
  326. # [01:54] <zewt> setTimeout should be defined in terms of the time delta API, once it actually exists
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  328. # [01:54] <jamesr> yeah, i'm working on a proposal for that too
  329. # [01:55] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  330. # [01:57] <jamesr> annevk-cloud: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-event-timestamp doesn't say anything about leap seconds
  331. # [01:57] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  332. # [01:57] <jamesr> annevk-cloud: ECMA-262 defines Date as ignoring leap seconds, although i don't think anyone actually does that
  333. # [01:58] <zewt> (nitpick: "number of milliseconds" is more natural than "amount of")
  334. # [01:58] <jamesr> i think that means the two differ by either 24 or 34 seconds now (i'm not sure what the wikipedia page is trying to tell me)
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  337. # [02:13] <TabAtkins> Dammit, these emails I write don't seem so long when I'm writing them.
  338. # [02:14] <jamesr> heycam: webperf uses www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-ED.css
  339. # [02:14] <jamesr> but it's not https so if you load the webperf spec over https you get mixed content errors
  340. # [02:14] <jamesr> is that stylesheet available over https?
  341. # [02:15] <heycam> jamesr, it seems it is
  342. # [02:15] <jamesr> if i just change the url to https:// the connection times out for me
  343. # [02:15] <jamesr> what url are you using?
  344. # [02:15] <heycam> https://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-ED.css
  345. # [02:15] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:401:226:4aff:fe14:aad6) (Quit: ap)
  346. # [02:15] <nessy> so, hmm, I wonder if I've been doing this correctly: if I want to point out a bug on a part of the spec that's only in the WHATWG version, can I still go through the w3c bug tracker or should I email the whatwg list?
  347. # [02:16] <heycam> maybe the url should be "//www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-ED.css" so that it uses http: or https: depends on how you view the spec. (that works, doesn't it?)
  348. # [02:16] <jamesr> yeah
  349. # [02:16] <jamesr> (well it should)
  350. # [02:17] <jamesr> either that or just always use the https:// version
  351. # [02:17] <jamesr> i think // is best practice
  352. # [02:17] <jamesr> hm url works for me now, not sure why i was having trouble earlier
  353. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> nessy: There's no practical difference between filing a bug and sending an email, so just send an email (that way it avoids anyone being snotty and closing the bug).
  354. # [02:19] <nessy> TabAtkins: hehe :-) good idea! thanks!
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  357. # [02:23] <TabAtkins> nessy: (I'm also prejudiced in that I hate the bugtracker and vastly prefer email.)
  358. # [02:24] <nessy> TabAtkins: aha! I don't really care actually - but conversations in the bug tracker tend to be short and to the point, but also often harsh
  359. # [02:26] <heycam> hmm, where do you actually download the IE10 PP3 from? http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Info/Downloads/Default.html only seems to have PP2
  360. # [02:26] <TabAtkins> Has pp3 beenr elease yet?
  361. # [02:27] <heycam> http://windowsteamblog.com/ie/b/ie/archive/2010/06/23/internet-explorer-platform-preview-3-released-today.aspx
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  364. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> heycam: Hm, I dunno.
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  369. # [02:52] <jamesr> TabAtkins: don't you see? corporations are -have already- more likely
  370. # [02:52] <TabAtkins> jamesr: It's... it's all so obvious now.
  371. # [02:52] <jamesr> you have no time to rebut make your accessibility
  372. # [02:54] <TabAtkins> Take off all SVG. For great justice.
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  379. # [03:11] <TabAtkins> 40% of the new email in my inbox from the last 10 minutes is a11y.
  380. # [03:12] <TabAtkins> Ah, to be fair, one of those was the public-a11y reminder that I'm not registered and the list hates me.
  381. # [03:22] <Philip`> Does 10 minutes provide a statistically significant sample?
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  454. # [06:31] <boblet> damn, writing specs is hard. I’m trying to think of a good alternative *sentence* to propose… and failing <_<
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  458. # [06:39] <zewt> heh, g+ feedback button sends a screenshot of the page ... i wonder what they're doing to implement that
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  477. # [08:01] <boblet> Anyone following along with my problems with the blockquote spec, I wrote an article http://oli.jp/2011/blockquote/ found real-world examples that would be non-conforming with current spec http://oli.jp/example/blockquote-metadata/ and emailed WHATWG list
  478. # [08:01] <boblet> so do I file a bug report now or is that overkill? :)
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  488. # [08:52] <annevk> boblet, email should be sufficient
  489. # [08:52] <annevk> boblet, unless you want to escalate it within the W3C if you disagree with Ian, in which case you need to file a bug report
  490. # [08:56] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-76f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Quit: And Now for Something Completely Different.)
  491. # [08:56] <annevk> jamesr_, I mentioned your comment on leap seconds in the source
  492. # [08:56] <boblet> annevk: thanks. yeah heard email is enough from Hixie too
  493. # [08:56] <annevk> jamesr_, I guess we want to be consistent with new Date()
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  496. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> it's really great to see the latest IE10 platform preview has an HTML5 that intends to conform with the spec
  497. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> a lot of nice surprises in that latest release
  498. # [09:02] * Joins: kytibe (~kytibe@212.174.109.55)
  499. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> is http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/runner.html up to date?
  500. # [09:04] * Quits: shans (~shanestep@74.125.56.17) (Quit: shans)
  501. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> and/or it would be great to get some data on how much of the html5lib test suite the IE10 parser is passing at this point
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  504. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunno if you saw http://enable-cors.org/ yet
  505. # [09:09] <Rik`> yeah, happy morning without conditional comments \o/
  506. # [09:09] <annevk> Yeah some time ago
  507. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: seems mhausenblas made that page
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  509. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> Rik`: funny that most responses to that IEblog post were about "no more conditional comments" rather than "IE now has a real HTML5 parser"
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  511. # [09:12] <annevk> We should sign up for https://plus.google.com/105923173045049725307/posts/E3mVj6nskaX
  512. # [09:13] <annevk> http://goo.gl/zq95C
  513. # [09:14] <Rik`> MikeSmith: the HTML5 parser is only interesting if you don't write valid code so web developers that care about the IE announcement are not writing invalid code hopefully
  514. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> I see
  515. # [09:15] <annevk> Rik`, conditional comments are invalid
  516. # [09:16] <Onderhond> I'll miss them though.
  517. # [09:16] <nlogax> man, i really can't figure out how to cancel a drag&drop action at the time it is dropped
  518. # [09:16] * Quits: hsivonen (~hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  519. # [09:16] <nlogax> like what happens when you press escape mid-d&d
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  521. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> maybe Google Circles should be called Google Cells instead
  522. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> in the sense of terrorist cells where there's only guy who knows who's actually in the cell, and none of the members of the cell necessarily know they are even in it
  523. # [09:26] <Onderhond> Wouldn't it still be wise to forsee some kind of standardized mechanism proving fall-back code (css) for unsupporting browsers?
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  561. # [11:09] <foolip> Hixie, I'm here
  562. # [11:09] <foolip> Hixie, I was looking at this just yesterday
  563. # [11:09] <foolip> you're probably sleeping, will email you
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  572. # [11:41] <krijn> (Server will be down a bit today, getting a new fiberglass connection)
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  577. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> http://groups.google.com/group/es-operating-system/browse_thread/thread/5146403c9623eeec?pli=1
  578. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> "Today I pushed a brand-new web browser source code to the ES operating system's code base. It's been built from the ground up at Esrille Inc., which I founded in Kyoto just a year ago."
  579. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> bravo Shiki
  580. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> his company has a great logo too
  581. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> http://www.esrille.com/
  582. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> that's based on his actual dog
  583. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> named Jiminy
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  602. # Session Close: Fri Jul 08 00:00:00 2011

The end :)