/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-26 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Jul 26 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# 06[00:12] * annevk thinks step 2 in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-ensure-samedoc cannot happen
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# [00:35] <annevk> hmm
# [00:35] <annevk> WHATWG Weekly
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# [00:51] <annevk> suggestions anyone?
# [00:52] <annevk> download="" / from-origin / traversal / window.find() / ???
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# [01:05] <othermaciej> annevk: end of W3C Last Call is coming up
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# [01:08] <annevk> thanks othermaciej
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# [01:25] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-end-of-last-call
# [01:25] <annevk> also gave myself a week off :)
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# 06[02:12] * annevk hopes abarth's URL spec will end up in HTML one day
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# [02:14] <abarth> annevk: yeah, me too :)
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# [02:14] <abarth> i have all the info, i just need to find a couple hours to do it
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# [02:29] <annevk> if Mozilla throws a NS_ERROR_INVALID_POINTER, is that an indication of a problem?
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# [02:31] <jamesr> there seems to be a porblem
# [02:33] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3Ex%3Cscript%3Etry%7Bdocument.body.replaceChild%28null%2Cdocument.createElement%28%22x%22%29%29%7Dcatch%28e%29%7Bw%28e%29%7D%3C%2Fscript%3E
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# [02:50] <annevk> AryehGregor, you should maybe make some wiki with W3C Process issues
# [02:50] <Hixie> damowmow.com/playground/ideas-for-the-w3c might help if you do that ;-)
# [02:50] <annevk> AryehGregor, I mean, would you please make one :)
# [02:50] <annevk> Hixie, did you look at chairs@w3.org? o_O
# [02:51] <Hixie> what post?
# [02:51] <Hixie> i don't read the secret lists anymore
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# [02:52] <annevk> maybe a good idea
# [02:53] <annevk> but e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2011JulSep/0053.html (W3C Member-only)
# [02:53] <annevk> not that it makes much sense
# [02:54] <hober> annevk: good times
# [02:54] <Hixie> ah, well, daniel and i often disagree about process things :-)
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# [02:54] <Hixie> (i'm assuming he disagrees with me, i didn't do more than skim it)
# [02:54] <wolfman2000> evening. *checks topic* hmm...remind me to do that more often.
# [02:55] <wolfman2000> how goes progress here?
# [02:55] <annevk> wolfman2000, there's http://blog.whatwg.org/
# [02:56] <annevk> wolfman2000, and http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
# [02:56] <annevk> both should give some indication of progress
# [02:56] <wolfman2000> don't recall the blog the last time I was here.
# [02:56] <annevk> wolfman2000, we even have http://twitter.com/WHATWG
# [02:56] <wolfman2000> ...should have known
# [02:57] <wolfman2000> everyone is going to twitter
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# [02:57] <wolfman2000> next thing I know, you guys will say you have a Google+ account
# [02:57] <annevk> Google+ does not allow accounts for groups yet
# [02:57] <wolfman2000> don't know if that's good or bad
# [02:57] <Hixie> i did sign up for the company profile thing for whatwg
# [02:57] <Hixie> doubt we'll get in on teh beta though :-)
# [02:57] <annevk> ah cool
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# [02:58] <wolfman2000> well, that covers one of my purposes here.
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# [02:59] <wolfman2000> The other purpose will depend on whether a particular user is active...and even then, I'd have to take that conversation to PM or a different channel
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# [02:59] <annevk> alright
# [03:00] <wolfman2000> so hopefully it won't be a problem if I idle in here until he is around
# [03:00] <wolfman2000> also, now following you guys on twitter to make things easier
# [03:00] <annevk> there's no rules here
# [03:02] <wolfman2000> strange thing, but I can adapt.
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# [03:31] <Hixie> annevk5: it's interesting how the responses kinda miss the point
# [03:31] <Hixie> e.g. chaals talks about how the process i describe would make the editor "all powerful"
# [03:31] <Hixie> but it would actually make the editor as powerless as the whole w3c is now
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# [03:37] <benschwarz> Hixie!
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# [04:06] <erlehmann> Hixie, could you suggest readings on community gouvernment that influenced you?
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# [04:25] <Hixie> benschwarz!
# [04:25] <Hixie> erlehmann: community gouvernment?
# [04:25] <Hixie> erlehmann: oh you mean like how to run a community?
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# [04:26] <Hixie> erlehmann: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F-3E8pyjFo
# [04:26] <Hixie> erlehmann: and similar talks
# [04:26] <Hixie> in the first of those i think you can see the back of my head in the audience at one point :-)
# [04:26] <erlehmann> Hixie, whatever you call it. i am interested for example, why you prefer descriptive over normative standards and stuff.
# [04:27] <Hixie> oh, that's not really about community building
# [04:27] <Hixie> hm
# [04:27] <erlehmann> also, how to respond to volunteers without driving them off. i think the whatwg did a pretty good job with that.
# [04:27] <Hixie> what makes you think i prefer descriptive standards over normative standards?
# [04:27] <Hixie> how to respond to volunteers is exactly what those videos are about, so that answers that one
# [04:28] <erlehmann> your comments on codecs in particular, like “speccing that so-and-so won't change apple's stance on it“
# [04:28] <Hixie> (in fact just watch all the videos that you find in a search for [brian fitzpatrick and ben collins sussman])
# [04:29] <erlehmann> ima gonna do that some time this week. thank you.
# [04:30] <erlehmann> oh, and context: i maintain the dev branch of a minecraft clone. first project having significant contributions from people i do not personally know.
# [04:30] <Hixie> erlehmann: "speccing that so-and-so won't change apple's stance on it" doesn't mean i prefer descriptive over normative standards
# [04:30] <Hixie> erlehmann: it's just that you can't have normative standards if you don't have any power over the people who use them
# [04:30] <erlehmann> oh. thanks for clearing that up, then.
# [04:30] <Hixie> erlehmann: so descriptive standards are the only option on the webd
# [04:30] <Hixie> web
# [04:31] <Hixie> personally i'd much rather we had normative standards, then i could just spec what i wanted and not listen to any feedback, my life would be way easier :-P
# [04:31] <zewt> text/hixie
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# [04:34] <erlehmann> there was a german joke made about that: „in relation to the browser makers, we are all petitioners“ – only that the german word for someone petitioning “bittsteller” can also be mis-construed as “someone who places bits”
# [04:37] <erlehmann> a web dev said that at the end of a panel discussion in april. pretty good ad-hoc humor, in my opinion :)
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# [05:15] <wolfman2000> zewt: are you around?
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# [09:18] <hsivonen> I feel so baited to reply to http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/160#comment-11185 even though I know I should be reviewing and writing code today
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# [09:20] <erlehmann> >threads on google+
# [09:20] <erlehmann> >deleted a sizable amount of my friends' accounts
# [09:20] <erlehmann> do not want ;_;
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# [09:22] <Hixie> what on earth does it mean to be called a "Jacobin"? My ancient political history apparently fails me
# [09:22] <Hixie> erlehmann: why did they delete accounts? did your friends escalate?
# [09:23] <jacobolus> Hixie: they were a political club in revolutionary france
# [09:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: it baffles me how people think standards have any power
# [09:23] <Hixie> jacobolus: that much i gathered from wikipedia
# [09:23] <jacobolus> Hixie: calling someone a Jacobin roughly implies someone who cares mainly about ideological purity
# [09:24] <erlehmann> Hixie, they used their nick names. i have gone back to a normal feedreader since then.
# [09:24] <jacobolus> hah. just looked at wikipedia, which apparently uses the same phrase as description :)
# [09:25] <Hixie> erlehmann: you mean they violated the terms of service and then the terms of service were applied? i'm not saying i agree with the policy, but it seems silly to complain about a site doing what it said it would do.
# [09:25] <Hixie> erlehmann: anyway, they can just put in the more common names they're actually known by and the accounts will be restored
# [09:25] <Hixie> jacobolus: but what does it mean to be called a jacobian? is that good or bad?
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# [09:25] <Hixie> jacobolus: oh, sorry, missed your answer
# [09:25] <jacobolus> it's certainly derogatory
# [09:26] <erlehmann> sometimes the common name is just „plomlompom“ or something equally weird.
# [09:26] <hsivonen> did the Gmail ToS prohibit pseudonyms, too?
# [09:26] <jacobolus> it means you'll toss out allies who don't live up to an impossible extremist standard
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# [09:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: no (and still doesn't, to my knowledge)
# [09:26] <hsivonen> the scariest part of G+ ToS getting applied is people getting their Gmail account closed, too
# [09:27] <hsivonen> dunno if that's happened over pseudonyms, but, reportedly, it has happened over age requirement
# [09:27] <Hixie> erlehmann: if someone really is called that then it should be easy to demonstrate it. but i can understand people doubting that someone is called that in person.
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# [09:28] <erlehmann> Hixie, i think you are absolutely right with the tos. i think they should move out of the google namespace.
# [09:28] <hsivonen> maybe the age requirement is in the Gmail ToS, too, but it's terrible to close a non-American kid's email account without asking the parents when the U.S. law would allow parental consent and the kid isn't in the U.S. anyway
# [09:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: as i understand it from media reports (i have no inside knowledge) there is one case where someone who was already violating the ToS (<13) had their account suspended pending parental approval after they tried to join G+ (which is closed to <18 anyway) and corrected their birthday.
# [09:28] <jacobolus> Hixie: "The Jacobins assumed more and more power during the spring of 1793, with the support of the Parisian mob, which overawed the Convention, culminating in a coup at the end of May. They were to hold power until the summer of 1794, and they repeatedly purged the Convention of those they held disloyal to the Republic, ending with a widespread program of execution, the Reign of Terror in their last months. Robesp
# [09:28] <jacobolus> ierre, generally the spokesman for the successful faction, had great esteem for his reputation as "the sea-green incorruptible", and set up the slogan of the Republic of Virtue, until the Jacobins' last purge, 9 Thermidor, July 27, 1794, Robespierre attempted suicide and only succeeded in shattering his lower jaw. He was executed the next day on Thermidor 10, July 28, 1794.[7]"
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# [09:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: but we already have a system in place that lets the parents unsuspend the account in that case, so i dunno why it made the news
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# [09:29] <jacobolus> there's wikipedia again
# [09:29] <erlehmann> unfortunately, without g+ providing feeds and publish APIs, that is problematic. oh well.
# [09:29] <erlehmann> walled gardens again.
# [09:29] <Hixie> jacobolus: wow, glad he is reconsidering!
# [09:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh. I guess it wasn't at all clear to the parents that there was such a system
# [09:29] <erlehmann> my sister read that article. she's ten. uses google mail. though not for anything important, by her own account.
# [09:29] <erlehmann> she's scared now. i showed her IMAP and will help her migrate.
# [09:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: either that or they were trying to get attention. I've seen several cases where that's happened.
# [09:30] <hsivonen> I've become more scared of having a foreign BigCo manage my identity when I've lately been trying to unlock an old Apple ID of mine
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# [09:31] <erlehmann> the funniest case in germany is a woman whone last name can be literally translated as „unknown“. of course social networks kill her accounts.
# 06[09:31] * Hixie is a big proponent of open federated standards for this kind of thing
# [09:31] <Hixie> any one vendor being in control of anything is a dangerous situation, however benevolent the vendor.
# [09:32] <erlehmann> indeed. i don't understand why my friends did that stuff. but then i consider g+ a big imageboard. though lacking features.
# [09:32] <hsivonen> so far, iforgot.apple.com doesn't work for my old Apple ID, phone support directed me to iTunes email support and iTunes email support person is having scripted conversations with me and their scripts don't seem to cover dealing with decade-old Apple IDs that have never been used in the iTunes store
# [09:32] <erlehmann> and by „did that stuff“, i mean „use it instead of using their own servers“.
# [09:32] <erlehmann> oh itunes. the internet explorer 6 of the media players you are.
# [09:34] <hsivonen> Are all new Apple IDs required to be email addresses? Is it even possible to register @-less Apple IDs anymore?
# [09:34] <erlehmann> regarding google+: i can only hope that people realized they should not whine when stuff breaks. unless they pay for it.
# [09:34] <hsivonen> where the @-part is implied to be @mac.com for iChat purposes
# [09:34] <hsivonen> the Apple ID page still talks about iChat
# [09:35] <erlehmann> it still looks like a PR problem from here. maybe only in germany.
# [09:35] <erlehmann> or maybe only with early adopters from hacker culture.
# [09:35] <hsivonen> if I register an Apple ID with @whatever and whatever doesn't have the XMPP DNS stuff, how would it work in iChat?
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# [09:43] <hsivonen> It's so frustrating to go back and forth with a support person who is following a script instead of paying good attention to what I say.
# [09:44] <erlehmann> the only good support i ever had via phone was a short talk that amounted to „just remove the yellow disk on the underside with a screw driver and clean it“
# [09:44] <hsivonen> If Apple has a policy against letting me revive my old Apple ID, I'd prefer them to tell me instead of spewing scripted answers to me
# [09:45] <hsivonen> erlehmann: oh, Apple's phone support was clued but the phone guy wasn't empowered to poke at the Apple ID database
# [09:45] <erlehmann> oha!
# [09:45] <hsivonen> erlehmann: he pointed me to iTunes Store support and it went downhill from there
# [09:46] <erlehmann> why do you need to revive it anyway? can't you just create a new one? or is stuff tied to it?
# [09:47] <erlehmann> like .mac trial or something? (i am guessing here)
# [09:47] <hsivonen> erlehmann: in case the ID is now or in the future exposed in some communication service (as it used to be exposed in iChat), I want to be known as "hsivonen" as in other services
# [09:47] <hsivonen> if it won't be exposed anywhere public, I guess then I shouldn't care
# [09:47] <erlehmann> oh well.
# [09:47] <erlehmann> namespace issues again ;)
# [09:50] <hsivonen> I supposed it's rational for them to by default assume that I'm clueless, but it's still so very annoying
# [09:50] <hsivonen> *suppose
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# [09:53] <erlehmann> funny. one of my acquaintances was not deleted, though he has used his IRL nickname and added „dings“ (like the idiom „foo“)
# [09:54] <erlehmann> i wonder if there is something done manually, he is somewhat popular.
# [09:54] <erlehmann> oh well.
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# [10:05] <hsivonen> looks like Darth Vader got kicked out of G+, too
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# [11:15] <hsivonen> why does Chrome decode this as UTF-8? http://m.gsmweb.cz/
# [11:16] <hsivonen> is Chrome applying on-by-default heuristics to detect UTF-8 when there's no declaration?
# [11:16] <hsivonen> or is Chrome willfully violating HTML5 and honoring the XML decl?
# [11:17] <espadrine`> What is the reason behind requiring btoa input to be below U+00FF? Is it technical, or historical?
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# [11:27] <Philip`> espadrine`: What would you expect it do for >= U+0100?
# [11:29] <Philip`> (Base-64 is an algorithm that's defined over 8-bit values so it's unclear what should happen to larger values)
# [11:30] <Philip`> (and you can't just do an implicit UTF-8 encode because then btoa and atob couldn't be exact inverses any more)
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# [12:53] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like Chrome is better at detecting Polish ISO-8859-2 text as ISO-8859-2 than Firefox, IE and Opera
# [12:55] <hsivonen> whoa. Poland and Germany both have high Firefox usage but the usage by Firefox version is *very* different
# [12:55] <hsivonen> oops. no matter. I was looking at the wrong numbers
# [12:56] <espadrine`> Philip`: ah, ok (I was thinking indeed about a utf-8 encode)
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# [14:01] <karlcow> ePub previewer http://dl.dropbox.com/u/160781/apps/mac/Murasaki/index.html
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# [14:10] <jgraham> karlcow: Seems like one should just implement an ePub reader in HTML since they are basically HTML documents
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# [14:12] <jgraham> Alternative theory: it seems like ePub should just be plain HTML with a few specific conventions
# [14:12] <karlcow> It's what is done already by most epubreaders I think. Not sure I understand what you mean :)
# [14:13] <hsivonen> I'm feeling an 386 urge to reply to http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/160#comment-11185 again. I need to learn to look away.
# [14:13] <jgraham> karlcow: Well I mean clearly that uses WebKit for the rendering. But I mean you may as well make the rest of the UI HTML too. Especially for a "preview" reader
# [14:14] <jgraham> Although I understand that some people will value the OSX integration
# 06[14:15] * Philip` likes the non-word "unanimosity"
# [14:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: You could reply briefly with only the most important points
# [14:15] <karlcow> jgraham: yup I found it by looking for an ePub Spotlight importer to just be able to full text search on the files I have.
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# [14:17] <karlcow> hsivonen: if you want to make constructive points to some things which seem general enough, do not leave a comment, but create a FAQ on your web site and point to it.
# [14:17] <karlcow> The FAQ will have the benefits to be able to grow across time and subsequent blog posts
# 06[14:22] * Ms2ger wonders what http://www.w3.org/wiki/DOM/domcore is about
# [14:23] <hsivonen> karlcow: maybe I should do that, but having a page that catalogs incorrect allegations and misunderstandings about me, the stuff I'm working on and stuff I don't want to work on would be a rather odd thing to have on my site
# [14:23] <Philip`> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/%0C - yay XML
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# [14:24] <hsivonen> Philip` strikes again
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# [14:29] <Philip`> Hmm, their inline sitestat script code seems to not execute, because it's <script></script> but served as XML so the comment gets ignored
# [14:31] <Philip`> (which is lucky since http://www.legislation.gov.uk/"+alert(document.cookie)+" would be an XSS hole if it did execute)
# [14:32] <Philip`> (Oddly it does seem to prevent "--" being injected into the script code, but nothing else)
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# 06[14:33] * Philip` guesses that's the consequence of using an XML templating system that thinks the page name is actually meant to be inserted into a legitimate comment
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# [14:34] <Philip`> (which is presumably introducing the vulnerability for any users without an XHTML-supporting browser)
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# [14:37] <Philip`> (Sticking an HTML5 serialiser on the output wouldn't help since that'll serialise the comment node inside the script element as <script><!-- ... and result in it becoming executable too)
# 06[14:38] * Philip` would like it if parsing tree-structured data wasn't so very complex :-(
# [14:39] <Philip`> s/parsing/serialising and parsing/
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# [15:37] <gsnedders> "inserted into a document" means if you follow parentNode you'll reach the Document node, right?
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# [15:41] <Ms2ger> That's "in a document" in DOM Core/HTML
# [15:42] <gsnedders> Right, and inserted into is when it enters that state?
# [15:42] <gsnedders> Yay I can understand specs. :3
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# [15:44] <Philip`> Something is in a document once it's been inserted into a document? Who would've guessed!
# 06[15:44] * jgraham wonders what he wanted to say to Ms2ger
# [15:46] <jgraham> Oh yes
# 06[15:46] * Philip` wonders what the Plain English Campaign would think about the specs
# [15:46] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Do you have a link to the testharness.js/Mochitest integration bug?
# [15:47] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647323
# [15:47] <jgraham> Takk
# 06[15:48] * Ms2ger should figure out at what line length annevk wraps
# [15:53] <annevk> uh?
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# 06[15:57] * jgraham wonders which text editor annevk uses
# 06[15:58] * Philip` ponders what font annevk picked
# 06[15:58] * Ms2ger ponders Philip`
# [15:59] <annevk> oh I get it now
# [15:59] <annevk> 76
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# [15:59] <annevk> TextWrangler, Monaco-12
# [16:00] <Philip`> An excellent choice
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# [16:00] <jgraham> Now you should blog about how that exact setup is the key to writing good specs
# [16:01] <Ms2ger> Pff, 80, gedit, Monospace-10 beats that :)
# [16:02] <annevk> gedit is nice
# 06[16:03] * jgraham was at least right in thinking annevk isn't an emacs/vi type
# [16:04] <Ms2ger> Don't tell Hixie
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# [16:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, question of whether inserted means in the tree or has ownerDocument.
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# [16:21] <foolip> does anyone know how to leave a W3C WG? http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42786/join exists but /leave does not
# 06[16:23] * jgraham tries to avoid humming hotel california
# [16:24] <Philip`> foolip: Wait a year until you get automatically unsubscribed?
# 06[16:24] * Philip` wonders if that only applies to the HTML WG
# [16:24] <annevk> foolip, you should talk to Charles
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# [16:26] <annevk> foolip, the /join form goes via Charles too
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# [16:26] <foolip> annevk, k
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# [16:51] <Ms2ger> "User agents may wish to offer the user more control over the provided media."
# 06[16:51] * Ms2ger wonders if that's an RFC2119 MAY
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# [16:59] <Ms2ger> <AryehGregor> git commands have seldom been faulted for having an insufficient number of options.
# [16:59] <Ms2ger> Hah
# [16:59] <david_carlisle> annevk: thanks for closing that bug
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# [17:01] <annevk> your welcome
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# [17:05] <annevk> btw
# [17:05] <annevk> I learned my lesson
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# [17:06] <annevk> one Microsoft employee in the water, 500 dollar potential Apple hardware damages
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# [17:22] <Ms2ger> annevk, step 2 at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-ensure-samedoc was for sync mutation events, not sure if it was a good idea
# [17:23] <annevk> oh because adoptNode removes
# [17:23] <gsnedders> Window.prototype.toString doesn't exist per WebIDL, right?
# [17:24] <annevk> I think the idea is that the mutation event fire after all mutations happened
# [17:24] <annevk> so an implicit call to adoptNode would not fire one
# [17:24] <annevk> prolly need to split out the adoptNode algorithm to handle that scenario
# [17:24] <annevk> better
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# [17:28] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, why would it?
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# [17:30] <annevk> btw
# [17:30] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Because Jeff Walden implied it did :)
# [17:30] <annevk> the shadow DOM stuff apparently introduces a new Node type
# [17:30] <Ms2ger> Boo, Waldo
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# [17:34] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg
# [17:34] <dglazkov> annevk: yes!
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# [18:01] <annevk> so what is the plan dglazkov?
# [18:01] <annevk> is Ian going to edit the specification?
# [18:01] <annevk> or you?
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# [18:03] <dglazkov> It's going to be me and Dominic Cooney, for starters.
# [18:03] <dglazkov> "for starters" is here, btw: http://dglazkov.github.com/component-model/
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# [18:04] <dglazkov> the only section that's more or less spec'd is events: http://dglazkov.github.com/component-model/events.html
# [18:04] <dglazkov> I essentially took Hixie's events section from XBL2 and wrote it down in algorithms.
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# [18:05] <dglazkov> unfortunately, I need to work on something different this quarter (WebKit hygiene related stuff)
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# [18:06] <dglazkov> so I am 20%-ing on the use cases/spec work at the moment
# [18:07] <dglazkov> but I'll be back with the vengeance in October!! :)
# [18:08] <dglazkov> annevk: does this make any sense? :)
# [18:09] <Ms2ger> The web? None
# [18:09] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: all we have to do is slightly adjust the definition of "sense"
# [18:10] <Ms2ger> Apply a binding to the word, if you will
# [18:10] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: you know me, I would much rather sub-class it
# [18:10] <dglazkov> class WebSense : Sense
# [18:10] <Ms2ger> {
# [18:11] <Ms2ger> // Reimplement everything
# [18:11] <dglazkov> / override all methods
# [18:11] <dglazkov> :)
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# 06[18:13] * Ms2ger cleans up annevk's typos
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# [18:13] <annevk> sounds good dglazkov
# [18:13] <annevk> you should probably announce that spec on WebApps
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# [18:14] <dglazkov> annevk: yes.
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# [18:21] <annevk> Ms2ger, I had the idea of not <dfn>'ing historical constants
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# [18:22] <annevk> Ms2ger, Web IDL already requires everything there is to need to know about them
# [18:22] <annevk> Ms2ger, and they do not need to be referenced
# [18:22] <Ms2ger> That works
# 06[18:23] * gsnedders would like Anolis to automatically semantically mark-up IDL blocks
# [18:24] <gsnedders> (and make it possible to xref them, etc.)
# [18:24] <Ms2ger> You mean, turn it into ReSpec? :)
# [18:26] <gsnedders> ReSpec didn't exist when I started talking about implementing that :)
# [18:26] <Ms2ger> Also, patches welcome
# [18:27] <annevk> semantically how?
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# [18:28] <annevk> haven't changed exceptions because of the outstanding bug
# [18:29] <gsnedders> annevk: basically making it possible to just type a pre/code block of WebIDL with no elements within it
# [18:30] <gsnedders> annevk: And getting the same output as today
# [18:30] <annevk> yeah that would be kind of cool
# [18:31] <Ms2ger> Someone (who isn't me) should write a python WebIDL parser
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# [18:32] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: This was what I concluded. :)
# [18:32] <Ms2ger> So, is the DOM Tree a tree?
# 06[18:32] * Ms2ger enjoys www-dom
# 06[18:34] * annevk replied with a link to wikipedia
# [18:35] <dglazkov> oh good lord
# 06[18:35] * dglazkov feels bad for the poor guy
# [18:35] <Ms2ger> gal*
# [18:35] <dglazkov> pesone
# [18:36] <dglazkov> ^^ person that is
# [18:36] <annevk> Ms2ger, can http://dev.w3.org/2009/webidl-checker/webidl-check be reused in some way
# [18:37] <Ms2ger> Wait, that's python?
# 06[18:37] * Ms2ger is confused
# [18:37] <annevk> combined with XSLT
# [18:37] <dglazkov> PYTHON IS AWESOME
# [18:38] <annevk> oh it looks more like a nice hack
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# [18:38] <annevk> heycam, is there some Python parser for Web IDL that you know of?
# [18:39] <heycam> annevk, not that I know of
# [18:39] <annevk> also hi
# [18:39] <heycam> hi :)
# [18:39] <heycam> you might like to look at that es-operating-system project? to see what parser they're using
# [18:40] <zewt> well that's lovely
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# [18:40] <zewt> "wait 30 seconds to download" sites that stop the countdown if you change tabs
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# [18:41] <zewt> three cheers for degenerate scripting abuses
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# [18:43] <annevk> http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk%2Fesidl
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# [18:47] <zewt> heh www-dom
# [18:47] <zewt> should have suggested that a tree refers to the roots
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# [18:49] <zewt> i'd have assumed it was a troll if it wasn't from a named domain
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# [18:52] <Philip`> DOM Tree doesn't make any sense because it doesn't photosynthesise
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# [19:01] <Hixie> so i'm thinking <dialog> should also have a <form> feature: <form method=dialog> which causes form submission to just look for the nearest ancestor dialog and set its return value accordingly
# [19:01] <Hixie> so you could do: <dialog> <form method=dialog> <button type=submit value=1>Ok</button> <button type=submit value=0>Cancel</button> </form> </dialog>
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# [19:02] <Hixie> and then: dialog.showModal(); dialog.onclose = function () { if (dialog.returnValue == '1') { ... } };
# [19:02] <dglazkov> Hixie: <dialog> sounds pretty cool
# [19:02] <annevk> for some reason I read <details> and got confused
# [19:02] <Hixie> (instead of having to hook each button up to the <dialog>, etc)
# [19:02] <Hixie> this also gets you form validation for free
# [19:02] <Hixie> so you can use <input required>, etc
# [19:02] <Hixie> and it all magically works
# [19:03] <dglazkov> so returnValue is what?
# [19:03] <Hixie> the value of the button the user used to submit the form
# [19:03] <dglazkov> what if I have a dialog to ask for a new label name?
# [19:04] <Hixie> you can get the value from the form by just grabbing the form control and picking the input element and getting its value
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# [19:04] <Hixie> dialog.getElementsByTagName('form')[0].newLabelName.value
# [19:05] <Hixie> (with <input name=newLabelName>)
# [19:05] <annevk> will these dialogs be written in markup though?
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# [19:05] <Hixie> haven't really done the research yet but i'm guessing yes
# [19:05] <zewt> is there a reason to do this in a surrounding dialog element, instead of just using events on the form?
# [19:05] <Hixie> (still need to see if it's what people want by studying how it's done today)
# [19:06] <Hixie> zewt: how would that look?
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# [19:06] <annevk> zewt, you need a container that will be the dialog
# [19:06] <zewt> akin to onsubmit, i imagine
# [19:07] <Hixie> how would you write the example above?
# [19:08] <zewt> something like form.method = "none"; /* submitting triggers events but doesn't submit to the server */ form.onaftersubmit = function(e) { form.returnValue ... }
# [19:09] <Philip`> Should OK/Cancel buttons get automatically hooked up to keys like Enter/Escape and other UI like 'X' buttons, rather than just being arbitrary submit buttons?
# [19:09] <Hixie> zewt: how do you get the dialog to show up in this model?
# [19:10] <Hixie> Philip`: ok/cancel are an antipattern in dialog design, i don't think we should be encouraging their use. I was just lazy in my example.
# [19:10] <zewt> i don't know anything about <dialog>, i'm looking at it from the javascript-form perspective
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# [19:10] <Hixie> zewt: ah well if all you want is a form, you can already do that using action="javascript:..."
# [19:10] <zewt> where it seems like you sort-of want f.onsubmit = function(e) { e.preventDefault(); }, but you don't want to actually stop the submission entirely--still go through validation and so on, just don't send it to the server
# [19:10] <TabAtkins_> Not for much longer, if at all anymore.
# [19:10] <zewt> ew
# [19:10] <Philip`> Hixie: Keyboard shortcuts and default choices seem important regardless of what the buttons are labelled with
# [19:11] <Hixie> Philip`: ah if you mean should it be possible to mark a button as the default button, that's already on the list of features for a future version
# [19:12] <zewt> can you do form.action = function in JS? code in a javascript: url is evil
# [19:13] <nlogax> not afaik. but why not add an event listener?
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# [19:13] <zewt> listener on what?
# [19:13] <Hixie> zewt: why is it evil?
# [19:14] <zewt> how is it not evil? heh
# [19:14] <Hixie> what's the difference between onclick="foo()" and action="javascript:foo()" ??
# [19:14] <Ms2ger> That the latter is evil :)
# [19:15] <zewt> i can say x.click = function() in JS; x.action = "foo()" in JS is nasty
# [19:15] <zewt> onclick
# [19:15] <Hixie> oh well if you're talking about scripted stuff sure
# [19:15] <Hixie> i assumed you were talking about markup
# [19:15] <nlogax> zewt: submit listener on the form
# [19:15] <zewt> whether prefixed with javascript: or not (that just makes it worse)
# [19:16] <Philip`> Scripts in attribute strings are effectively executed using eval, and eval is inherently evil
# [19:16] <zewt> nlogax: being able to trigger validation without performing a server submit
# [19:16] <nlogax> zewt: you can prevent the default action
# [19:17] <nlogax> form.addEventListener("submit", function(e) { e.preventDefault(); do some stuff; }, false)
# [19:18] <zewt> i assumed that would prevent form validation as well (havn't used form validation yet)
# [19:19] <nlogax> i think an invalid form is not possible to submit anyway.. but only used it once and forgot
# [19:19] <nlogax> >_>
# 06[19:19] * nlogax reads
# [19:19] <zewt> too tired at the moment to think much harder about it
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# [19:19] <zewt> two hours of sleep is fun
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# [19:28] <erlehmann> i am of sleepy as well.
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# [19:36] <annevk> I wonder how we should organize the Nodes section
# [19:36] <annevk> the current order makes little sense
# [19:36] <annevk> maybe they should be in nodeType order
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# [19:37] <annevk> with the exception of comment
# [19:37] <annevk> that should just come after Text and not ProcessingInstruction
# [19:38] <Ms2ger> Tree order? Doc/PI/doctype/Element/CharData/Text/Comment/DocFrag
# [19:39] <annevk> that seems kind of nice actually, again with Comment out of order
# [19:40] <Ms2ger> I just want (CharData/Text/Comment) together
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# [19:44] <annevk> yeah
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# [20:40] <AryehGregor> So it looks like one of the two bugs I filed in IE Connect was silently fixed at some point.
# [20:40] <AryehGregor> Encouraging. Maybe I'll file some more.
# [20:41] <zewt> was it reflexively WONTFIX'd anyway
# [20:41] <zewt> heh
# [20:42] <annevk> god I wish Mozilla obsoleted Attr already
# [20:43] <annevk> and other browsers too of course
# [20:43] <annevk> but I mainly want to clean up the DOM spec :p
# [20:43] <Ms2ger> We warn already!
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# [20:44] <AryehGregor> zewt, no, both of my bugs got quick form responses saying: Thank you for your feedback.
# [20:44] <AryehGregor> We were able to reproduce the issue and are investigating it.
# [20:44] <AryehGregor> Best regards,
# [20:44] <AryehGregor> The Internet Explorer Team
# [20:44] <AryehGregor> Which is actually impressive by itself.
# [20:44] <karlcow> each time a Website is using it, make Firefox sends an email to the spec editor ;)
# [20:45] <zewt> i'd say "buy a lottery ticket" if randomness worked that way
# [20:45] <Ms2ger> karlcow, to the website author ;)
# [20:45] <AryehGregor> Also, they kept them open after shipping IE9. One is still open, the other is fixed, and I confirmed that the fixed one is actually fixed in 10PP2.
# [20:45] <annevk> D/DF/PI/DT/E/T/C is the new order
# [20:45] <AryehGregor> So actually my only complaint is that I don't seem to get e-mail for status updates, and there's no explanation of when the fixed one was fixed.
# [20:46] <Ms2ger> Weird place for DF
# [20:46] <annevk> I also abstracted out the adopting stuff Ms2ger
# [20:46] <annevk> it's close to Document
# [20:46] <karlcow> Ms2ger, I really wish we had a simple way of having a feedback loop for people in charge of websites. It is hard to impossible to find the right persons, web agencies, departments.
# [20:47] <Ms2ger> Same here
# [20:47] <zewt> if only there was always actually someone in charge of websites :|
# [20:47] <Ms2ger> annevk, great
# [20:47] <annevk> i think the new adopt stuff is quite good yes :)
# [20:48] <annevk> now I just need to solve xxxhierarchy
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# [20:48] <annevk> and see how the mutating algorithms overlap
# [20:48] <annevk> so there's only a few places to patch eventually for mutation events
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# [20:49] <wolfman2000> afternoon
# 03[20:49] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
# [20:50] <Ms2ger> Night
# [20:50] <annevk> almost midday
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# [20:53] <karlcow> http://www.niso.org/topics/ccm/e-book_annotation/
# [20:53] <karlcow> Books in Browsers Meeting
# [20:53] <karlcow> October 26, 2011
# [20:54] <Ms2ger> How is the hit-testing going?
# [20:54] <Ms2ger> (Pushed)
# [20:54] <annevk> tantek is finding out it is hard :)
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# [20:56] <Ms2ger> He's managing to make others write spec text, though
# [20:57] <annevk> maybe he can make you do more than fix typos :p
# [20:58] <Ms2ger> Noooo
# [20:59] <annevk> tantek, btw, will you remove the pseudo-elements from CSS3 UI?
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# [21:00] <tantek> annevk: lol - what I was finding out is just how many *more* unprefixed CSS properties have been implemented.
# [21:00] <tantek> (which may affect hit-testing yes)
# [21:01] <tantek> regarding the pseudo-elements in CSS3-UI, I've already placed them all "at risk"
# [21:04] <Ms2ger> <ChrisL> can we please drop the 'levels' stuff
# [21:04] <Ms2ger> Hear, hear
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# [21:09] <tantek> and will be keeping ::value and ::choices per implementer interest/intent (Mozilla) - but at this point looking at dropping the ::repeat-* pseudo-elements.
# [21:09] <zewt> gar
# [21:10] <zewt> next thing browsers need: modal save-as prompts
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# [21:10] <zewt> which is ... hard :|
# [21:11] <wolfman2000> Maybe look at jquery to see how they did their modal stuff?
# [21:14] <hober> zewt & wolfman2000: please contribute what you find to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Dialogs
# [21:14] <annevk> tantek, hmm, if they are going to be used for shadow DOM like stuff it might be better to wait for that
# [21:16] <tantek> annevk - my understanding is that ::value and ::choices are simple enough that it will fairly easy to map them to shadow DOM like stuff when that is defined.
# [21:16] <tantek> and if there is only one implementation of the pseudo-elements then they won't exit CR
# [21:16] <tantek> so I'm ok with seeing if browser implement them or not and keeping/dropping accordingly.
# [21:16] <tantek> *browserS
# [21:18] <annevk> I think for shadow DOM though instead of having a bunch of pre-defined pseudo-elements we want something else
# [21:18] <annevk> ::shadow(ident)
# [21:18] <annevk> and in your shadow tree you have <div pseudo=test> which can then be matched from the outside using ::shadow(test)
# [21:19] <annevk> dglazkov might know more
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# [21:19] <annevk> because otherwise you need to keep updating the selectors grammar and in general it would not be very extensible
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# [21:25] <dglazkov> annevk: I tried to convince dhyatt to do something like ::shadow(ident), but he insisted that we just use pseudo-elements.
# [21:25] <dglazkov> annevk: and allow builders of shadow DOM to define them with "pseudo" attribute.
# [21:26] <annevk> but that does not work
# [21:26] <annevk> ::foobar { } is dropped from a style sheet
# [21:27] <annevk> unrecognized pseudo-elements do not make it past parsing
# [21:27] <dglazkov> annevk: not in WebKit
# [21:27] <annevk> that's a CSS compliance issue then
# [21:28] <dglazkov> annevk: right http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0769.html
# [21:28] <dglazkov> WebKit. we're awesome.
# [21:29] <annevk> well that extension makes sense
# [21:29] <annevk> but that is not about not dropping unrecognized pseudo-elements on the floor
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# [21:30] <dglazkov> how would you know if a pseudo-element is unrecognized?
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# [21:30] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%3E%3A%3Atesttest%2Cbody{background%3Ared}%3C%2Fstyle%3E
# [21:31] <annevk> only red in webkit
# [21:31] <annevk> violating forwards compatible parsing rules
# [21:32] <wolfman2000> hober: I may have misunderstood your request. I'm looking at the slashdot example on the dialog wiki page, and that looks like jquery to me.
# [21:32] <annevk> WebKit. we've awesomely undocumented extensions and do not push for them in standards bodies
# [21:32] <annevk> ;)
# [21:32] <dglazkov> ;)
# [21:33] <dglazkov> maybe TabAtkins should do it
# [21:33] <dglazkov> he's smart
# [21:34] <Ms2ger> CSS3WEBKIT?
# [21:37] <tantek> annevk - longer term it seems the ::shadow(ident) approach makes more sense. which is why I'm fairly conservative with adding new pseudo-elements. ::value and ::choices have specific uses / use-cases and implementer interest which is why I'm even considering them.
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# [21:45] <gsnedders> B2G — an entirely memory unsafe OS, on a limited memory platform?
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# [21:49] <Ms2ger> Limited memory and Gecko in one sentence?
# [21:51] <zewt> "gecko causes me to have limited memory"
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# [21:53] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Well, isn't that the implication of B2G? Or going down the Maemo/N900 route of needing swap space on microSD or the like?
# [21:54] <Ms2ger> Dunno, I'm happy to have skipped that thread
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# [21:55] <zewt> swap on sd? sounds like a good way to have to replace an sdcard every couple months, heh
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# [22:14] <AryehGregor> How do you get raw HTML hosted at github, like es5.github.com? Does it require $$$?
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# [22:29] <karlcow> AryehGregor: http://pages.github.com/ if you like solutions which are not free, tied to a corporate for hosting ;)
# [22:30] <AryehGregor> Yeah, so it's not free. Figures.
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# [22:39] <Philip`> Do any modern browsers not have document.images?
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# [22:40] <Ms2ger> Gecko does, that much my source tells me
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# [22:42] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like IE4+, NN3+, O3+
# [22:42] <Philip`> per http://blooberry.com/indexdot/html/topics/uastring-navobj.htm
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# [22:47] <AryehGregor> Okay, I'd say my editing spec is ready for implementer review.
# 06[22:47] * AryehGregor writes up posts
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# [23:31] <AryehGregor> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-July/032630.html
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# [23:35] <jamesr> AryehGregor: tl;dr
# [23:35] <AryehGregor> jamesr, :(
# [23:35] <jamesr> AryehGregor: :D
# [23:35] <Hixie> man, harsh
# [23:37] <jamesr> is the intent that this spec be detailed enough to clean-room from the spec and be compatible with the web?
# [23:37] <AryehGregor> jamesr, yes.
# [23:37] <jamesr> i'm wondering if anyone would try to do an html5-parser style rewrite+ditch
# [23:37] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure that's the only feasible strategy here.
# [23:37] <AryehGregor> I don't know if it's quite ready for that, though.
# [23:37] <jamesr> for interop, yeah
# [23:38] <AryehGregor> It still has some known issues, and I'm sure there are loads of problems I didn't think of at all.
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# [23:38] <karlcow> sometimes I wonder if specs should not just been small index card. linked together
# [23:39] <AryehGregor> One problem with this is that interop is so bad right now that sites that rely on execCommand all use massive browser sniffing.
# [23:39] <AryehGregor> So any convergence will have to break sites in at least one browser, probably.
# [23:39] <AryehGregor> But that's not avoidable.
# [23:39] <jamesr> also a certain amount of content is inherently engine-specific
# [23:39] <AryehGregor> Yes, we all know WebKit has that problem.
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# [23:39] <AryehGregor> Well, and IE, but they just gave up and started keeping around the old engines, so it's not an issue for them.
# [23:39] <jamesr> it's a significant issue in WebKit, but probably true to some degree for everyone
# [23:40] <jamesr> i guess apple could keep another version of WebKit.framework around for Mail.app :/
# [23:40] <AryehGregor> The algorithms should be compatible enough in most cases, because usually sites aren't going to depend on the exact DOM produced.
# [23:40] <AryehGregor> Or so one hopes.
# [23:41] <AryehGregor> Unlike with the HTML parser.
# [23:41] <AryehGregor> But there will definitely be some migration pain here.
# [23:41] <AryehGregor> Still, no way around it.
# [23:43] <zewt> well, you *could* avoid backwards-compatibility, in principle, by speccing a new function ("newExecCommand"), everyone implements that, then declare execComment to be inherently browser-specific for backwards-compat only, as if it was a prefixed vendor extension
# [23:43] <zewt> not very pretty, of course
# [23:43] <jamesr> if you're going to do that, might as well go ahead and design something that makes more sense
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# [23:43] <AryehGregor> WebKit can do that if they want to preserve compat with WebKit-specific content, but it's not reasonable for the web in general.
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# [23:44] <AryehGregor> We need to define something for execCommand() that's basically web-compatible.
# [23:44] <zewt> jamesr: well, that way means that the new API gives a pretty simple migration for existing code
# [23:44] <jamesr> that's basically saying "let's design a new editing API", which is different from standardizing execCommand()
# [23:44] <zewt> whereas a new sparkly API may not
# [23:44] <AryehGregor> jamesr, well, a redesign from scratch risks introducing unforeseen design flaws, and it would be harder for authors to port their sites.
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# [23:44] <AryehGregor> But yeah, this isn't an option, we're standardizing what's out there.
# [23:44] <zewt> also a much bigger investment implementation- and design-side
# [23:44] <AryehGregor> Most users probably won't break.
# [23:44] <jamesr> fingers crossed!
# [23:44] <AryehGregor> I mean, most sites that use it.
# [23:45] <zewt> breaking users sounds like a fascinating side-effect
# [23:45] <zewt> *crunch*
# [23:45] <AryehGregor> If they do, we'll figure out what to do at the time. I'm happy to change the spec to be more compatible if people identify specific sites that break.
# Session Close: Wed Jul 27 00:00:00 2011

The end :)