/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-07-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jul 31 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:12] <charlvn> jgraham: example?
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  6. # [00:13] <Dashiva> hsivonen: A few days late, but my guess is a lot of people still use firefox 3.6 because of ubuntu
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  8. # [00:14] <charlvn> Dashiva: why because of ubuntu?
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  11. # [00:18] <Dashiva> Because the current LTS is lucid with 3.6
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  14. # [00:19] <charlvn> not sure if this is typical but most ubuntu users i know upgrade rapidly to newer versions
  15. # [00:19] <charlvn> people only seem to care about lts for servers
  16. # [00:20] <Dashiva> Well, there's probably a similar thing going on debian too
  17. # [00:20] <charlvn> well debian uses iceweazel
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  20. # [00:28] <jgraham> foolip_: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13480
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  22. # [00:29] <foolip_> I wonder if we're supposed to be reading/filing spec bugs on Saturday nights...
  23. # [00:30] <charlvn> bug with no references in spec = fail
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  121. # [10:23] <annevk> jetlag sucks
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  123. # [10:31] <othermaciej> yep
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  127. # [10:52] <dydx> hi othermaciej
  128. # [10:52] <othermaciej> hello
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  131. # [11:10] <annevk> AryehGregor, so I agree it would be nice to share the "insert" stuff
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  133. # [11:11] <annevk> AryehGregor, however that means the insert algorithm needs to be split into the steps you need to run before actually inserting and actually inserting the node
  134. # [11:11] <annevk> AryehGregor, calling one "insert" and one "actually insert" seems kind of weird
  135. # [11:12] <annevk> could have "pre-insert" and "insert" I suppose, but it seems kind of weird that appendChild invokes "pre-insert" which in turn invokes "insert"
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  139. # [11:14] <annevk> pre-insert would be used by insertBefore/appendChild
  140. # [11:14] <annevk> insert would be used by pre-insert/replaceChild
  141. # [11:15] <annevk> pre-delete would be used by removeChild
  142. # [11:15] <annevk> delete would be used by pre-delete/replaceChild
  143. # [11:15] <annevk> I guess that could work
  144. # [11:16] <annevk> To pre-delete /node/ ...
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  147. # [11:16] <annevk> s/delete/remove/
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  159. # [11:49] <annevk> I made the above changes
  160. # [11:50] <annevk> s/above/aforementioned/
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  211. # [16:06] <annevk> So contains() in WebKit is implemented on Node but only exposed on Element?
  212. # [16:07] <annevk> Another difference with Opera is that in Opera you can check for non-Element descendants. In WebKit that simply returns false.
  213. # [16:10] <foolip_> hsivonen, are you around?
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  217. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> annevk, I am 147% in favor of a generic contains() on Node that can be used on any Node.
  218. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> That would be awesome.
  219. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> compareDocumentPosition is a nightmare.
  220. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> I wrote my own isAncestor() and isDescendant() helper methods.
  221. # [16:19] <gsnedders> +1 for contains working for any Node
  222. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> Plus, contains() must be cheaper to implement than compareDocumentPosition().
  223. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> Usually you don't care about the full position, you just want to know either ancestor/descendant or before/after.
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  226. # [16:35] <annevk> AryehGregor, hmm maybe
  227. # [16:35] <annevk> AryehGregor, nobody has that though
  228. # [16:35] <AryehGregor> Standards are allowed to add new features sometimes, you know. :)
  229. # [16:36] <annevk> True enough, but I rather be conservative here.
  230. # 03[16:36] * Joins: cygri (~cygri@109.255.150.223)
  231. # [16:36] <annevk> Adding a bunch of features is exactly what went wrong with the DOM.
  232. # [16:37] <AryehGregor> Are you talking about expanding contains() or adding the other stuff I mentioned?
  233. # [16:37] <annevk> Both :)
  234. # [16:38] <annevk> Even standardizing contains()
  235. # [16:38] <AryehGregor> Well, ask implementers.
  236. # [16:38] <AryehGregor> I think we could use a few more convenience features like that.
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  238. # [16:40] <hsivonen> foolip_: I'm somewhat around
  239. # [16:49] <foolip_> hsivonen, I was adding integration with validator.nu on my live microdata too, see http://worf.foolip.org/microdatajs/live/
  240. # [16:49] <foolip_> but I can't figure out how to make the source show up on your side
  241. # [16:49] <foolip_> <input type="hidden" name="showsource" value="yes"> didn't do anything, it seems
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  244. # [16:50] <foolip_> perhaps copySourceIntoTextArea is where the magic is, but I not sure what it's doing
  245. # [16:50] <foolip_> s/too/tool/
  246. # [16:51] <foolip_> meh, I should get an IRC client with a grammar checker :)
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  250. # [17:00] <hsivonen> foolip_: I have no idea what happens
  251. # [17:00] <hsivonen> foolip_: the explanation might be buried in https://bitbucket.org/validator/validator/src/0a49bcad4ce5/src/nu/validator/servlet/MultipartFormDataFilter.java
  252. # [17:00] <hsivonen> but it's been a while since I wrote that, so I don't remember what oddities it has
  253. # [17:01] <foolip_> ok, I'll just hack away until I find the answer
  254. # [17:01] <foolip_> thanks
  255. # [17:02] <hsivonen> foolip_: IIRC, there's JS that copies the context from the source display to the textarea
  256. # [17:02] <hsivonen> s/context/content/
  257. # [17:02] <foolip_> hsivonen, but what is the source display?
  258. # [17:03] <foolip_> ok, I see how it works from the site itself
  259. # [17:03] <hsivonen> foolip_: It's an <ol>
  260. # [17:03] <foolip_> just need to figure out why my form doesn't have the same effect
  261. # [17:04] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe I put showsource=yes in the URL even though the content is POSTed
  262. # [17:04] <hsivonen> or something weird like that
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  271. # [17:53] <foolip_> I sense frustration: https://plus.google.com/u/0/109022289777044064966/posts/j43r9owxqry
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  273. # [17:55] <erlehmann> foolip_, a classic “U MAD” ;)
  274. # 03[17:56] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-205-142.dynamic.qsc.de)
  275. # [18:05] <foolip_> hsivonen, odd, it looks like the order of the <input> elements matters, when switching name="content" and name="showsource" it works
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  277. # [18:12] <foolip_> I'll just use the order that works without further investigation
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  280. # [18:24] <annevk> foolip_, would be nice if G+ had a real subscribe function
  281. # [18:25] <foolip_> indeed
  282. # [18:25] <foolip_> I assume it's coming
  283. # [18:25] <foolip_> together with unsubscribe
  284. # [18:25] <foolip_> for all those derailed threads :)
  285. # 03[18:25] * Joins: AnselmBradford (~ans@118-92-14-198.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  286. # [18:33] <annevk> mute is unsubscribe
  287. # [18:33] <annevk> although maybe that does not stop notifications? hmm
  288. # [18:34] <foolip_> hmm, that also hides in from the stream, though
  289. # [18:34] <annevk> what a bullshit thread that is by the way, on use cases
  290. # [18:34] <foolip_> better not respond further
  291. # [18:34] <annevk> we know what we want so we can skip the use cases test? mwaha
  292. # [18:35] <foolip_> go ahead and dive in if you want to be punched ;)
  293. # [18:35] <annevk> I never really bothered on mailing lists either so I am not sure I should start on Google+
  294. # [18:35] <annevk> :)
  295. # [18:35] <foolip_> I hear you're quite used to fountain-wrestling and such, it should suit you
  296. # [18:35] <foolip_> how did that actually happen?
  297. # [18:36] <annevk> well we were at Ann's house which is at Lake Union
  298. # [18:36] <annevk> and I asked Alex about going for a swim
  299. # [18:37] <annevk> I'm not sure why, but he walked over to the water and went on his knees to get a feel for how warm it was
  300. # [18:37] <annevk> that was my cue
  301. # [18:37] <foolip_> it was deliberate?!
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  305. # [18:37] <annevk> well yes :)
  306. # 03[18:37] * Guest67215 is now known as Moo--
  307. # [18:38] <foolip_> you're crazy
  308. # [18:38] <annevk> I'll take that as a compliment
  309. # [18:38] <foolip_> was he amused?
  310. # [18:38] <annevk> I jumped in after him, but was wearing swimming shorts
  311. # [18:38] <annevk> he was cool with it, provided I got him a new phone
  312. # [18:39] <foolip_> oh, I thought it was a laptop
  313. # [18:39] <annevk> these days pushing someone in the water is expensive
  314. # [18:39] <foolip_> you wrote "apple hardware" or some such
  315. # [18:39] <annevk> yeah, iPhone
  316. # [18:39] <foolip_> ah well, then you're not quite as crazy
  317. # [18:39] <foolip_> sorry to retract a compliment
  318. # [18:39] <annevk> aaah
  319. # [18:40] <annevk> back to Curb your Enthusiasm
  320. # [18:40] <annevk> LD is awesome
  321. # [18:53] <erlehmann> foolip_, i do not assume google+ gets better. after all, they see that the majority does not care. and feeds et al are not *that* difficult.
  322. # [18:53] <foolip_> there are feeds?
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  324. # [19:03] <erlehmann> foolip_, no. but they could have had feeds and chose not to.
  325. # [19:04] <foolip_> do feeds that require authentication actually work in things like Google Reader?
  326. # [19:05] <foolip_> sounds unlikely
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  340. # [19:44] <hsivonen> can folks who have a Mac and have never had Perian installed, please, test http://webm.html5.org/ in Safari?
  341. # [19:44] <hsivonen> it seems that I'm unable to revert to a Perianless state for retesting
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  343. # 03[19:51] * _uf0 is now known as uf0
  344. # [19:53] <annevk> "Your browser supports HTML5 video but does not support WebM.
  345. # [19:53] <annevk> You need to install Perian to view WebM content in your current browser."
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  348. # [19:57] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. works. thank you
  349. # [19:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: is https://plus.google.com/u/0/109022289777044064966/posts/PRJjCL75KPu on your radar?
  350. # [19:59] <gsnedders> foolip_: WebKit/OSX has mappings that do that? I thought it all came from querying the QT APIs.
  351. # [20:02] <annevk> So after the big schema.org announcement people are going to try to change everything yet again?
  352. # [20:02] <annevk> Authors are going to be so thrilled
  353. # [20:03] <hsivonen> annevk: http://www.xkcd.com/927/
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  359. # [20:17] <foolip_> annevk, not the people who announced schema.org ...
  360. # [20:18] <foolip_> gsnedders, I'd be surprised if the plugins exposed Content-Type-compatible names for containers and codecs, neither GStreamer, DirectShow or MediaFoundation do
  361. # [20:19] <foolip_> so it looks like Google+ is the new venue for creating web standards :)
  362. # [20:20] <foolip_> for some reason it seems easier to actually discuss things, is it because people have a picture and the font isn't monospaced?
  363. # [20:20] <foolip_> mysterious
  364. # [20:21] <hsivonen> foolip_: too bad the venue excludes pseudonymous people like Ms2ger
  365. # [20:22] <foolip_> hsivonen, it is
  366. # [20:22] <foolip_> I don't think they designed it primarily for people who only know each other by IRC nicks
  367. # [20:23] <foolip_> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/GitConcepts#Git.27s_staging_area was unhelpful
  368. # [20:24] <foolip_> how am I supposed to write code with random debug print messages and not commit those using mercurial?
  369. # [20:24] <foolip_> without git add -p I am lost
  370. # [20:24] <hsivonen> foolip_: merqurial queues FTW
  371. # [20:24] <Philip`> Maybe since it's web-based there's more a feeling that it's public and you shouldn't say anything particularly rude and unhelpful and you should explain yourself with more context, whereas email feels more private
  372. # [20:25] <foolip_> Philip`, maybe, email archives certainly suck enough that almost no one will read them
  373. # [20:26] <foolip_> hsivonen, http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/MqExtension ?
  374. # [20:26] <foolip_> it seems like everything is an extension in mercurial :)
  375. # [20:28] <Philip`> Isn't modular software meant to be a good idea? :-)
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  377. # [20:28] <foolip_> I guess, but the difference here is which modules are available by default
  378. # [20:28] <foolip_> perhaps hg tries to not scare newcomers
  379. # [20:28] <foolip_> git certainly makes no attempt to be approachable
  380. # [20:29] <hsivonen> foolip_: yes, that one. and yes, hg needs extensions to work
  381. # [20:29] <foolip_> my first few encounters with git were funny, always getting me into a state I didn't know how to get out of
  382. # [20:29] <Philip`> I think it's nice that you can treat default hg like a slightly fancier svn, and once you understand it and get annoyed by limitations you can find an extension that removes those limitations
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  385. # [20:30] <foolip_> funny in a "haha I need to re-clone the repo and start over" kind of way
  386. # [20:30] <Philip`> instead of being thrown in at the deep end with a million features that you have no idea why you'd ever use
  387. # [20:31] <foolip_> certainly, but I wish there were good tools that allowed me to work with a hg or bzr repo using the git tools that are now hardcoded in my brain
  388. # [20:31] <foolip_> it's like switching between qwerty and dvorak all the time
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  390. # [20:32] <Philip`> I wish either hg or git was rubbish, so everyone would standardise on one or the other
  391. # [20:33] <foolip_> yes, that would be great!
  392. # [20:33] <foolip_> doesn't look like the world works like that, though
  393. # [20:34] <foolip_> looks like http://stackoverflow.com/questions/883452/git-interoperability-with-a-mercurial-repository may be what I'm looking for
  394. # [20:34] <foolip_> I already found that n times, but always thought it was the reverse of what it is
  395. # [20:34] <foolip_> odd
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  397. # [20:41] <erlehmann> Philip`, hg is rubbish. it is slow.
  398. # [20:42] <erlehmann> foolip_, i use hg-fast-export to merge upstream changes for a game, i maintain the dev branch. so that works, unless you have multiple heads
  399. # [20:43] <erlehmann> (i use git. upstream uses hg. everyone else uses git.)
  400. # [20:43] <foolip_> erlehmann, don't you need to re-export every time upstream changed and rebase --onto your changes?
  401. # [20:43] <foolip_> or is it clever enough to handle that?
  402. # [20:44] <erlehmann> foolip_, it is clever enough. however, upstream does not seem to be clever enough, so i now have duplicate commits.
  403. # [20:44] <erlehmann> as upstream evolves, the old commits have the same IDs
  404. # [20:44] <erlehmann> is that what you want?
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  407. # [20:46] <foolip_> erlehmann, sounds like it, yes
  408. # [20:46] <erlehmann> also, if upstream does something that requires you to rebase, upstream is bad-bad!
  409. # [20:46] <doublec> I use hg-git for git/hg conversions
  410. # [20:47] <erlehmann> i do
  411. # [20:47] <erlehmann> hg-fast-export -r ~/share/src/games/minetest -o upstream
  412. # [20:47] <erlehmann> git push origin upstream/master:upstream -f
  413. # [20:47] <erlehmann> (the -f is there because it is just intended as a mirror)
  414. # [20:47] <foolip_> I'd like the two repos to live in the same working tree
  415. # [20:48] <foolip_> doublec, do you do something like in the linked stackoverflow answer?
  416. # [20:48] <erlehmann> everyone telling me that git and hg are equivalent is a mercurial user.
  417. # [20:48] <doublec> foolip_: yes
  418. # [20:49] <doublec> foolip_: it's how I work on the mozilla hg repository - I maintain a git mirror and use that
  419. # [20:49] <foolip_> doublec, I'll try to follow that answer then
  420. # [20:49] <doublec> foolip_: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2011/02/10/git-conversion-of-mozilla-central.html
  421. # [20:50] <doublec> foolip_: and http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2011/04/16/my-git-workflow-for-mozilla-development.html
  422. # [20:50] <erlehmann> reminds me of this one microsoft PR (?) guy i once met, who really wanted me to know that windows can do everything linux can. kinda annoying.
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  436. # [21:47] <twisted`> yo, for some reason a piece of CSS get's totally ignored in Chrome/Firefox, got the html + css here: http://jsfiddle.net/pPpbx/
  437. # [21:47] <twisted`> the offending bit is: http://bastardoperatorfromhell.org/~twisted/jing/index.php?f=2011-07-31_2136.png&h=146&w=229
  438. # [21:48] <twisted`> the css class is .category_img {}
  439. # [21:48] <twisted`> and somehow doesn't get loaded :s
  440. # 03[21:50] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-41-96.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  441. # [21:50] <The_8472> there seems to be a special character in the css selector
  442. # [21:51] <Philip`> Looks like a U+0010
  443. # [21:51] <Philip`> (after ".category_img " before "{")
  444. # 03[21:54] * Parts: brucel (~brucel@cpc3-smal11-2-0-cust48.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
  445. # [21:57] <twisted`> really? let me check
  446. # [21:58] <twisted`> just deleted whatever was there and placed a space, didn't seem to change
  447. # [21:59] <twisted`> ah!
  448. # [21:59] <twisted`> The_8472 and Philip` THANKS!!!
  449. # [22:00] <twisted`> I'll now leave invisible chars on in Coda
  450. # [22:00] <twisted`> :)
  451. # 03[22:01] * Joins: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  452. # [22:05] <Philip`> If you turn display of invisible characters on, they're no longer invisible characters, so they shouldn't be displayed by that option
  453. # [22:07] <twisted`> Philip`: it showed as a red questionmark in a rotated square
  454. # [22:07] <twisted`> the 'illegal' char, when using invisible chars
  455. # [22:07] <twisted`> but I get your logic ;)
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  458. # [22:25] <annevk> http://technologizer.com/2011/07/29/a-brief-history-of-apple-not-buying-things/ is nice
  459. # [22:25] <annevk> analysts...
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The end :)