/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 01 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:10] <Yuhong> FYI, just tried http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/compat/004.html under Netscape 4.8 for fun.
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  9. # [00:13] <Yuhong> FYI, it seems to be equivalent to <em><address></address></em>.
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  44. # 06[03:00] * AryehGregor is annoyed at the new "ayg@aryeh.name via gmail.com", although of course other mail clients would have been saying something like that forever
  45. # [03:02] <AryehGregor> Maybe I should just switch all my e-mail over to the ayg@aryeh.name Google account from Simetrical@gmail.com? Probably by setting up the former to read all the latter's contents via IMAP?
  46. # 06[03:02] * AryehGregor wonders if that would be possible and how long it would take, or if there's a better way
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  62. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> heycam: where you moving to?
  63. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> oh, Melbourne, I gues
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  67. # [03:59] <heycam> MikeSmith, yep
  68. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> cool
  69. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> I just got back yesterday from a visit to Perth
  70. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> surprised how expensive things are there
  71. # [04:00] <heycam> oh yeah, all the increased wealth over there from the mining boom
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  84. # [05:02] <bga_> anybody from Mozilla?
  85. # [05:02] <bga_> i have bug
  86. # [05:03] <bga_> also miketaylr
  87. # [05:03] <bga_> in last opera window.onerror is fake event
  88. # [05:03] <miketaylr> bga_: orly
  89. # [05:03] <bga_> never fires
  90. # [05:04] <miketaylr> i thought we didn't support window.onerror
  91. # [05:04] <bga_> but
  92. # [05:04] <bga_> 'onerror' in window // true!
  93. # [05:04] <bga_> plz remove
  94. # [05:04] <miketaylr> oh, hmm
  95. # [05:04] <bga_> if not support
  96. # [05:04] <miketaylr> ok, i'll file a bug if that's the case
  97. # [05:04] <bga_> thx :)
  98. # [05:05] <miketaylr> np
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  100. # [05:15] <bga_> miketaylr and opera is one browser which correctly parse { if(foo) _a() else _b() } :)
  101. # [05:15] <bga_> other wants ;
  102. # [05:15] <bga_> not bug, feature!
  103. # [05:17] <miketaylr> :)
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  106. # [05:30] <roc> bga_: what's your Mozilla bug?
  107. # [05:31] <bga_> roc window.addEventListener('error', #(e){ _log(e.message, e.fileName, e.lineNumber) })
  108. # [05:32] <bga_> or .filename .lineno as in webkit
  109. # [05:32] <bga_> but in Gecko both - null
  110. # [05:33] <roc> file a bug I guess
  111. # [05:33] <roc> I don't know
  112. # [05:33] <bga_> a can get lineNumber only if i attach event via window.onerror = #(message, fileName, lineNumber){}
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  114. # [05:34] <roc> those are very different
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  116. # [05:39] <roc> I see that for error events we pass the message, filename and line number as direct parameters to the handler
  117. # [05:39] <roc> instead of passing the event object
  118. # [05:39] <roc> I don't know why we do that
  119. # [05:40] <roc> addEventListener("error", function f(msg, filename, lineno) { ... }, false) should work
  120. # [05:44] <bga_> typeof(msg) == 'object' because its event object
  121. # [05:45] <bga_> both filename and lineno are undefined
  122. # [05:45] <bga_> in 8a1
  123. # [05:45] <heycam> the spec says that window.onerror, as well as registering a listener for the error event, is also called for script errors -- and script errors invocations of window.oenrror get called with the three arguments
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  132. # [06:06] <roc> weird
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  148. # [07:14] <zcorpan> hi
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  150. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hello
  151. # [07:17] <zcorpan> hello MikeSmith
  152. # [07:18] <zcorpan> what happened last month?
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  161. # [08:07] <hsivonen> someone filed a bug report as a Word document?
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  177. # [09:06] <zcorpan> Hixie: i don't mind dropping <datalist>-fallback-to-<select>. most authors use script to implement fallback instead of clever markup
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  214. # [11:07] <mhausenblas> hey foolip - a new toy to publish HTML5+Schema.org from CSV files https://github.com/mhausenblas/web.instata - in case you wanna play around w/ it ;)
  215. # 06[11:09] * foolip looks
  216. # [11:09] <foolip> I don't have any POTD I'm afraid :)
  217. # 03[11:10] * Stikk is now known as Stikki
  218. # 03[11:11] * Parts: ng-dev (~ng-dev@c-71-59-215-189.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
  219. # [11:11] <mhausenblas> he he, fair enough
  220. # [11:12] <mhausenblas> I just found the templating stuff fun, so I thought I give it a try
  221. # [11:12] <mhausenblas> Bottle rocks!
  222. # [11:13] <mhausenblas> and, btw, thanks for microdata-live - helped me to debug stuff
  223. # [11:13] <mhausenblas> as well as thanks to hsivonen for validator.nu - same applies here
  224. # [11:14] <foolip> mhausenblas, do you think vocabulary-specific validation would be useful for validator.nu, or a waste of time?
  225. # [11:14] <mhausenblas> hmm
  226. # [11:14] <mhausenblas> didn't think about it, tbh
  227. # [11:15] <mhausenblas> I guess for widely used vocabs, vCard, iCal, etc. yes
  228. # [11:15] <mhausenblas> maybe :)
  229. # [11:15] <mhausenblas> how would you do that, foolip?
  230. # [11:15] <mhausenblas> ah, you're contributing to validator.nu, right? is it on github?
  231. # [11:15] <foolip> mhausenblas, http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=851
  232. # [11:16] <foolip> mhausenblas, I wrote a few patches, but don't expect to be a long-term contributor
  233. # [11:16] <mhausenblas> right
  234. # [11:17] <foolip> mhausenblas, to validate a vocabulary you "just" check if the properties values follow the syntax required by the vocabulary
  235. # [11:17] <mhausenblas> so, let's put it this way: for a couple of common vocabs (that are used throughout microformats, microdata an RDFa) such as license, vCard, etc it would make sense, yes
  236. # [11:17] <mhausenblas> makes sense
  237. # [11:18] <foolip> are there any vocabularies at all that are used for all 3 syntaxes?
  238. # [11:18] <mhausenblas> maybe the first step is to compile a list of vocabs (see above for seeds), including, obviously Schema.org terms
  239. # [11:18] <mhausenblas> I guess so, yes - lemme see
  240. # [11:19] <mhausenblas> vCard - check, iCal - check, license - check
  241. # [11:19] <mhausenblas> Schema.org both for microdata and RDFa or whatever we will have in 3 months time :D
  242. # [11:20] <foolip> I think vCard and vEvent are way to complicated and will fail to get adopted, I don't plan to do anything with them
  243. # [11:20] <mhausenblas> I agree that they are not that simple, but I think widely used and needed
  244. # [11:20] <mhausenblas> but, again, Schema.org to the rescue ;)
  245. # [11:21] <mhausenblas> (that's why I'm focusing on Schema.org)
  246. # [11:21] <foolip> they're not used in microdata, which is all that I'd be checking
  247. # [11:21] <mhausenblas> right
  248. # [11:21] <mhausenblas> anyways, I guess a Schema.org validator would be the most interesting thing to have
  249. # [11:21] <mhausenblas> I'm about to do it anyway (for web.instata and other projects)
  250. # [11:22] <mhausenblas> in which language is validator.nu written?
  251. # [11:22] <foolip> Java
  252. # [11:22] <mhausenblas> ouch
  253. # [11:22] <foolip> the main reason I decided to not do it independently is because it already has all the framework for pointing to the source code location where something was wrong
  254. # 02[11:23] * Quits: pererik (~pe@unaffiliated/pererik) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  255. # 06[11:23] * mhausenblas is chuckling at html5lib/ihatexml.py
  256. # [11:23] <foolip> without that, a validator would be useless for all but trivial cases
  257. # [11:23] <mhausenblas> roger that
  258. # 06[11:24] * mhausenblas used to do Java ... some 8y ago ... now really only Python and JS
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  260. # [11:24] <mhausenblas> anyways, guess back to work (though, formally it's a bank holiday here today, I think ;)
  261. # [11:25] <mhausenblas> good talking to you foolip - KUTGW!
  262. # [11:25] <foolip> mhausenblas, likewise!
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  277. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I notice that Hixie's "microsyntaxes-dates" folder is empty but the v.nu behavior for checking "valid date or time string" and "global date and time string" is still not conformant
  278. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> specifically, I notice that for date-or-time, v.nu allows, e.g., 1996-01-01T12:05:25 (a date and time with no time-zone information) and 12:05:25Z (a time with no date but with time-zone information)
  279. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> but the spec prohibits both of those
  280. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> and for global-date-and-time, the spec allows 1996-01-01T12:05Z (a date and time string with no seconds specified), but v.nu prohibits it
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  285. # [12:45] <zcorpan> i thought v.nu didn't implement the spec but just used an off-the-shelf library for validating dates and times
  286. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: from what I can see in the code, it's currently just using regexes
  287. # [12:49] <zcorpan> oh
  288. # [12:50] <zcorpan> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/f92a4bdbb5e6 - how is QName equal to Name? annevk?
  289. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: btw, about what happened last month, I have a hard time remembering details about anything further back than two weeks, and I was away most of last week, so my recollections are pretty hazy
  290. # [12:51] <zcorpan> k
  291. # [12:51] <Ms2ger> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/6caa468281a4
  292. # [12:51] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, ^
  293. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't know if either of those differences are ones that you had sent feedback on, but if so, it seems that Hixie must have already responded
  294. # [12:52] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: thanks
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  298. # [13:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it's quite possible that I've missed Hixie's response(s) or spec edits on that topic
  299. # 03[13:06] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  300. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> ok
  301. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I also noticed today that for cases of a time element that has a pubdate attribute, the spec now requires the datetime value can't be just a time
  302. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> that is, it must either be a date with a time, or just a date
  303. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> so I checked in a change for that today
  304. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> but the spec also makes the same requirement for the text content of the time element, if no datetime attribute is specified
  305. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> so I can make a change for that too, but I'm wondering if it's worth it, especially given that there seems to be some chance of the time element just being dropped altogether
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  314. # [13:48] <annevk> What is the latest on mutation listeners?
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  320. # [14:10] <zcorpan> annevk: grattis
  321. # [14:11] <annevk> takk
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  323. # [14:22] <Ms2ger> annevk, congratulations
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  326. # [14:26] <annevk> thanks!
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  328. # [14:34] <brucel> zcorpan "Hixie: i don't mind dropping <datalist>-fallback-to-<select>. most authors use script to implement fallback instead of clever markup" - surely too early to tell? datalist so far has ben implemented in Opera for a while, Chrome recently. So a bit premature to declare the fallback mechanism dead?
  329. # [14:35] <Ms2ger> And Firefox for a while
  330. # 02[14:35] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  331. # [14:35] <Ms2ger> Don't forget the best implementation in the world ;)
  332. # 06[14:35] * jgraham thinks the fallback is a good idea still. Was there some evidence it isn't
  333. # [14:36] <annevk> The fallback mechanism was mostly designed for a time when browsers were not updated
  334. # [14:36] <jgraham> ?
  335. # [14:36] <annevk> Well, IE was not updated
  336. # [14:36] <jgraham> That's not evidence it isn't
  337. # [14:36] <annevk> That changed and scripts became more prevalent to handle fallback in better ways
  338. # [14:36] <annevk> So these days introducing somewhat cleaner design is feasible
  339. # [14:37] <jgraham> That sounds a bit like "backwards compatibility is hard. Let's not bother"
  340. # [14:37] <jgraham> Or "graceful degradation" if you like
  341. # [14:37] <annevk> It's more that backwards compatibility is solved in a different way that allows new features to be designed without clutter
  342. # [14:41] <jgraham> What is the clutter in this case? And who does it help if it is already implemented everywhere?
  343. # [14:42] <annevk> new implementors, people trying to grasp the platform
  344. # [14:42] <annevk> i value those more than legacy implementations
  345. # [14:43] <jgraham> Is there any evidence that this is actually hard to implement?
  346. # [14:45] <annevk> it's pretty clear it's more complex
  347. # [14:45] <brucel> It seems to me that "everything inside datalist is invisible, except the <options>" is beautifully simple, annevk
  348. # [14:46] <brucel> (even I understand it)
  349. # [14:46] <annevk> brucel, except that doesn't tell you if you need to traverse children or descendants, whether scripts are executed, whether other descendants are submitted, etc.
  350. # [14:47] <zcorpan> brucel: maybe, although i base my judgement on other features where i see most authors use script to implement the fallback behavior
  351. # [14:48] <zcorpan> brucel: which makes sense since it's dead simple if somebody else writes the script, e.g. modernizr
  352. # [14:49] <zcorpan> jgraham: i recall bratell whining about datalist having to consider all descendants and not just the children
  353. # [14:50] <zcorpan> it complicates teh implementation
  354. # [14:50] <brucel> zcorpan and that's legit - but how big is the amount of evidence at the moment? Basing it on the decisions of a small group of highly-motivated script-savvy early adopters isn't indicative of the majority of authors who, let's face it, won't be figuring this stuff out until IE10
  355. # [14:51] <zcorpan> brucel: the fallback is *for* early adopters. when it's mainstream, you don't bother with fallback at all
  356. # [14:52] <zcorpan> if the early adopters don't use the declarative fallback mechanism, it isn't going to do anyone any good
  357. # [14:55] <brucel> zcorpan I don't understand you, sorry. The fallback, surely, is so IE6,7,8,9 users get an input mechanism more helpful than a plain text input.
  358. # [14:56] <zcorpan> i'm saying that pages that use datalist will use a scripted dropdown if datalist is not supported
  359. # [14:56] <zcorpan> if (!input.list) { use jquery dropdown and be done with it }
  360. # [14:59] <brucel> feels to me like losing a useful declarative fallback mechanism in order to make it easier for implementors, because in the short time that it's been supported by majority of browsers, not everyone is using it
  361. # [15:02] <zcorpan> yeah
  362. # [15:03] <zcorpan> i've been disappointed several times where new features have useful fallback mechanisms but people feature check for the feature instead and fallback to jquery or something with script
  363. # [15:03] <Rik`> brucel: is it really implemented in Chrome ?
  364. # [15:05] <brucel> Rik Not sure - I meant to type Firefox (and made Ms2ger mad by getting it wrong)
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  366. # [15:05] <Rik`> last time I checked, it was broken because the default CSS had "datalist{ display: none;}"
  367. # [15:05] <brucel> ah, think they removed that
  368. # [15:06] <zcorpan> without implementing the feature?
  369. # [15:06] <brucel> and it's implemented in IE10 although the fallback mechanism is mangled; I reported it to them and was told they were de-mangling that
  370. # [15:07] <Rik`> brucel: I removed that ;)
  371. # [15:07] <zcorpan> brucel: mangled how?
  372. # [15:07] <Rik`> zcorpan: yeah, they had flags for <datalist> implementation but not in the CSS
  373. # [15:07] <zcorpan> k
  374. # [15:07] <brucel> zcorpan - just let me dig out my tests
  375. # [15:13] <brucel> zcorpan <input list=cheese>
  376. # [15:13] <brucel> <datalist id=cheese>
  377. # [15:13] <brucel> <option>Wensleydale</option>
  378. # [15:13] <brucel> <option>Gouda</option>
  379. # [15:13] <brucel> </datalist>
  380. # [15:13] <brucel> .. works fine in IE10 pp1
  381. # [15:14] <brucel> .. but Jeremy's example with <select> fallback always goes back to the fallback, even though datalist is supported
  382. # [15:15] <zcorpan> you mean the select is rendered?
  383. # [15:15] <brucel> yes
  384. # [15:15] <zcorpan> so chrome stole ie's CSS!
  385. # [15:16] <Rik`> brucel: well it's PP1, report it and it should be fixed
  386. # [15:16] <brucel> have done, a couple of weeks ago
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  388. # [15:18] <brucel> but my point is that until we see datalist usable in the Web's Favourite Browser most devs aren't going to be aware of it, so it's too early to call the degrade-to-select pattern a failure
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  391. # [15:20] <zcorpan> and when we know for sure it'll be too late to change it :)
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  399. # [15:37] <annevk> so what is left
  400. # [15:37] <annevk> * mutations
  401. # [15:37] <annevk> * range
  402. # [15:38] <annevk> * event handlers
  403. # [15:38] <annevk> and evaluation of what can be removed and what needs to be added back in
  404. # 03[15:38] * Parts: mamund (mamund@obsidian.nullshells.net)
  405. # [15:39] <annevk> some of which depend on either Acid3 changing or browsers giving up on Acid3
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  415. # [15:59] <hsivonen> I didn't want to think about mutation events today, but I ended up thinking about them anyway.
  416. # [15:59] <annevk> sorry
  417. # [16:00] <Ms2ger> And it's not even annevk's fault
  418. # [16:00] <hsivonen> annevk: oh, not your fault. I blame sicking's patch
  419. # [16:02] <zcorpan> so that's the latest on mutation listeners
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  429. # [16:24] <atrigent> when using HTML5 drag and drop, is it possible to obtain the dom node of the element being dragged on drop?
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  437. # [16:56] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%20%0A%20%3Cstyle%3E%20%0A%20%20%20div%20%7B%20background-color%3A%20green%3B%20color%3A%20lime%3B%20%7D%20%0A%20%20%20div%3Afirst-line%20%7B%20background-color%3A%20red%3B%20color%3A%20blue%3B%20%7D%20%0A%20%20%20span.one%20%7B%20background-color%3A%20inherit%3B%20color%3A%20inherit%3B%20%7D%20%0A%20%3C%2Fstyle%3E%20%0A%20%3Cdiv%3E%3Cspan%20class%3D%22one%22%3EGreen%3F%3C%2Fs
  438. # [16:58] <Michael> That's a cool tool
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  450. # [17:16] <annevk> gsnedders, should be I think
  451. # [17:17] <annevk> gsnedders, the real fun is when you put a break in the <span>
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  453. # [17:26] <gsnedders> annevk: Why? Why does background-color inherit from one place and color from another?
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  455. # [17:28] <erlehmann> oh my. google+ javascript routing breaks links containing fragments
  456. # [17:28] <erlehmann> or so it seems
  457. # [17:28] <erlehmann> srsly.
  458. # [17:28] <erlehmann> ._.
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  461. # [17:32] <gsnedders> When is Fx8 release?
  462. # [17:33] <gsnedders> 14 weeks time?
  463. # [17:33] <smaug____> https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease/Calendar
  464. # [17:33] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, your URL was cut off at: Green%3F%3C%2F
  465. # [17:35] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1090
  466. # [17:35] <gsnedders> is somewhat amusing in Firefox was the comment with it
  467. # [17:35] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: so you didn't really miss anything
  468. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> Yeah, seems not.
  469. # [17:39] <erlehmann> ohne thing is that the release version number stuff seems to work
  470. # [17:40] <erlehmann> i fell bad about not having ff $next yet ;)
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  478. # [17:55] <zewt> gar i need to figure out how to make firefox stop pasting html as html
  479. # [17:55] <zewt> it's never ever wanted and i always have to paste text into a text editor and copy it back out to make it stop, heh
  480. # [17:56] <Philip`> You should use an OS on which copy-and-paste almost never works reliably so it's bound to degrade to plain text, like Linux
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  482. # [17:56] <zewt> this feels like one of those things that somebody designed and implemented without really thinking about how annoying and unwanted it is in practice
  483. # [17:57] <zewt> eg. pasting text into email and having it end up in a giant font
  484. # [17:58] <gsnedders> zewt: It's one of the most common feature requests for Opera, though.
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  486. # [18:04] <erlehmann> Philip`, sadly, even linux desktops do that right nowadays. bugs me as well.
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  492. # [18:26] <annevk> gsnedders, that's the current thinking
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  494. # [18:28] <gsnedders> annevk: citation?
  495. # [18:29] <annevk> don't have anything handy
  496. # [18:29] <annevk> but see discussion from some years ago
  497. # [18:29] <annevk> involved bz
  498. # [18:33] <gsnedders> annevk: CSS 2.1 doesn't seem to match that, though
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  502. # [18:36] <gsnedders> annevk: inherit has a single dfn that is used for everything, which implies constant behaviour
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  507. # [18:46] <annevk> gsnedders, CSS is a mess
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  509. # [18:47] <Ms2ger> News at 12
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  511. # [18:51] <gsnedders> annevk: That doesn't mean we should go against fairly unambiguous parts of the spec. :P
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  531. # [19:30] <gsnedders> annevk: Also: Happy birthday!
  532. # 03[19:37] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  533. # [19:37] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  535. # [19:38] <dglazkov> annevk: Happy Birthday!
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  547. # [20:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: it wasn't on my radar, but in general i recommend people send feedback ot the list rather than to a limited-availability social network :-)
  548. # [20:02] <Hixie> for those whe were talking about the <datalist>/<select> thing -- as far as i can tell, none of the implementations match the spec or are interoperable with each other, so we don't have enough data to know if the fallback can be used by authors or not
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  559. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Okay, so I changed the address in my W3C profile thing to ayg@aryeh.name, but public-html thinks I'm not subscribed?
  560. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Any further magic I need to do?
  561. # 06[20:37] * AryehGregor inquires of MikeSmith
  562. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Also, MikeSmith, can I get a Bugzilla component for my editing spec? Specifically, are there going to be any political problems based on the fact that the spec isn't hosted at the W3C that might lead people to agitate that it should be shut down after I've come to start relying on it?
  563. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> (DOM Range already has one, it's been pointed out)
  564. # 03[20:38] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~ZombieL@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  565. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> (did anyone get my public-html message yet? does it have to be approved by moderators or something in addition to me giving permission to post it?)
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  573. # 06[20:53] * AryehGregor wonders why mailing list archives are not conventionally updated in real time
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  583. # [21:06] <Hixie> annevk: can we get an overload for appendChild() that takes a DOMString and creates a text node for you?
  584. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> That would be cool.
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  586. # [21:06] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I suggest you try to convince implementors directly :)
  587. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> Although frankly, if we're going to add shortcuts to the DOM methods, we need to go a heck of a lot further than that.
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  591. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> They're a massive headache to use.
  592. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> As it stands at least they're predictable, so adding a few random shortcuts doesn't seem like it would be a big win.
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  603. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Agreed with Aryeh on the "let's just sit down and make the entire DOM less sucky". ^_^
  604. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Do you have a concrete proposal? Maybe "clone the most commonly used parts of jQuery"? :)
  605. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> That would be a good start, certainly.
  606. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> SVG wants to make a less sucky SVG DOM, so we can coordinate and get everyone together.
  607. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> SVG has totally different needs.
  608. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> They need some kind of entirely non-DOM API that translates to DOM stuff.
  609. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Likely, yes.
  610. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> But some things could be fixed, like automatically handling the namespacing hell.
  611. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> SVG is vector graphics shoehorned into XML, HTML is actually a natural fit for the DOM.
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  613. # [21:40] <Michael> Have you guys seen Adobe Edge?
  614. # [21:41] <Michael> It finally became public today
  615. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Vector graphics are naturally layer-based, which seems like an acceptable fit for a tree-based language.
  616. # [21:41] <smaug____> huh, please, no jQuery
  617. # [21:42] <jgraham> Hopefully not the sucky magic bits of jQuery
  618. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> Depends on your defintion of "sucky magic".
  619. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> I was thinking of just looking at things that take five lines of DOM vs. one line of jQuery.
  620. # [21:42] <jgraham> Like "oh you entered a string that matched (some regexp) so you probably meant x"
  621. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Not actually trying to copy it.
  622. # [21:42] <jgraham> In function parameters
  623. # [21:42] <smaug____> though, perhaps I'm against jQuery just because the implementation is ... less-than-perfect
  624. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Heh, probably.
  625. # [21:43] <miketaylr> much like the DOM
  626. # [21:43] <miketaylr> ;)
  627. # [21:43] <Michael> smaug____, Have you told the jQuery devs?
  628. # [21:43] <jgraham> smaug____: By that token is there any software you ar for ? :)
  629. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Did anyone get my last post to public-html, in the thread about innerText?
  630. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> I haven't been able to figure out whether sending from ayg@aryeh.name worked or not.
  631. # [21:43] <smaug____> to jresig yes
  632. # [21:44] <Michael> What'd he say?
  633. # [21:44] <smaug____> not much
  634. # [21:44] <Michael> I mean... Did you say "jQuery sucks" or did you pin point areas for improvement?
  635. # [21:44] <smaug____> I just CC'ed him to some bugs to show that jQuery causes mem usage to go high
  636. # [21:44] <smaug____> very high in some cases
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  638. # [21:44] <Michael> hmm
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  640. # [21:45] <Michael> Do other libs like prototype, mootools etc?
  641. # [21:45] <smaug____> and jQuery used to have code which slowed down unload of pages a lot, but I think they did fix that
  642. # [21:45] <smaug____> don't know about other libs
  643. # [21:46] <smaug____> because when profiling, if some slow down has been caused by a js lib, it has usually been jQuery
  644. # [21:46] <smaug____> perhaps because it is used so often
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  646. # [21:47] <Michael> I'd be curious to see the performance benchmarks for jQuery vs prototype etc
  647. # [21:47] <Michael> Just because JS itself is a single threaded bottleneck
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  649. # [21:48] <smaug____> *IIRC*, jQuery also uses some constructs which tend to be hard to optimize in JS JITs (at least in some forms of jits).
  650. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> jQuery is an abstraction layer, it aims more for ease of use than performance.
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  652. # 06[21:52] * AryehGregor says this as someone who just found that in his own code, he was repeatedly doing getDescendants(document) on a huge document, which recursed through all nodes in the document at a stack depth of like twenty, when he could have written it imperatively in a few more lines and iterated over like twenty nodes instead
  653. # 03[21:52] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@202.157.197.113.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  654. # 06[21:52] * AryehGregor just rewrote that and noticed a significant speedup, but there don't seem to be good JS profiling tools last he checked . . .
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  659. # [21:57] <jgraham> "JS itself is a single-threaded bottleneck" - not really
  660. # [21:57] <jgraham> Some concurrency is avaliable via workers
  661. # [21:58] <jgraham> and the idea of making the DOM threadsafe or letting random webdevs loose with threads in the browser is... not appealing
  662. # [21:59] <jgraham> Also, javascript is generally pretty fast these days. Surprisingly so, even
  663. # [21:59] <Hixie> yet in some cases still lacking in what seed like obvious optimisations to me
  664. # [21:59] <Hixie> seem
  665. # [22:00] <Hixie> i recently optimised a for loop by a factor of two by factoring out some common computation with variables that were not assigned to in the loop
  666. # [22:00] <Hixie> the loop had no side-effects, called no user methods
  667. # 03[22:00] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  668. # [22:00] <jamesr> it's hard to tell that in JS
  669. # [22:01] <Hixie> so are all the other optimisations
  670. # [22:01] <Hixie> i was surprised that this one hadn't been done yet
  671. # [22:01] <Moo--> AryehGregor: google chrome comes with good performance monitoring tools nowadays
  672. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> Moo--, its JS profiler tends to give me useless results.
  673. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> I've tried it pretty recently.
  674. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> IIRC, IE10 was the only browser that had usable profiling when I tested it out, although I think at the time Firebug wasn't working with my Firefox version.
  675. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> Hixie, were you calling into the DOM?
  676. # [22:03] <Hixie> no
  677. # [22:03] <Hixie> it was a loop on a CanvasPixelARra
  678. # [22:03] <Hixie> CanvasPixelArray even
  679. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> Same thing, really
  680. # [22:03] <Hixie> who is that the same thing?
  681. # 06[22:03] * Ms2ger has a wide definition of "DOM"
  682. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> I should have said "native code"
  683. # [22:04] <Hixie> CanvasPixelArray shouldn't be any more native than String
  684. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> Not sure why it'd be any less native than Node per spec
  685. # [22:05] <Hixie> Node has to interact with complicated machinery
  686. # [22:05] <Hixie> CanvasPixelArray does not
  687. # [22:06] <Hixie> (e.g. what you do to a Node could involve HTTP, CSS, image decoding, memory allocation, mutation events, etc etc etc)
  688. # [22:06] <Ms2ger> And people still expect that to be fast :)
  689. # [22:07] <Hixie> that doesn't affect my point
  690. # [22:07] <Hixie> which is that in the case i was talking about, i don't see why it should be that hard to optimise
  691. # [22:08] <Hixie> compared to other optimisations that have already been done
  692. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> Yeah, in this case it should
  693. # [22:14] <jgraham> Hixie: On all browsers? It's not like everyone has the same optimisations
  694. # [22:15] <Hixie> i do not recall on what browsers i tested
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  697. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> Firefox might be better there, because we implement it as an ArrayBuffer
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  701. # [22:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: Loop invariant code motion is actually not that easy to do with JS, because such a small amount can actually be proven to be loop-invariant
  702. # [22:36] <Hixie> what makes it hard to prove loop-invariancy?
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  704. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> "But rather than actually calculating the dimensions of that hypothetical box, user agents are free to make a guess at its probable position."
  705. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> <3 CSS
  706. # [22:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: Doing static analysis of entire lexical scopes is expensive (so any function call becomes expensive), and the fact that objects can change their value in random places.
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  708. # [22:46] <Hixie> gsnedders: sure but in this case there were no such problems :-)
  709. # [22:46] <Hixie> gsnedders: it was just math
  710. # [22:46] <Hixie> anyway
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  712. # [22:50] <Philip`> Rather than proving hard optimisations are perfectly safe and coping with obscure edge cases, browsers ought to run an aggressive optimiser that's safe 99% of the time, and also run a completely independent clone of the page in parallel with a slow but perfectly safe JS engine
  713. # [22:51] <Philip`> then if the first one happens to go wrong, the divergence will be detected soon when the second one catches up with it, and the browser can switch to displaying the output of the second one
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  715. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> And then stay on the slow one forever?
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  717. # [22:51] <Philip`> so you'll eventually end up with the correct result but in most cases you'll get the result displayed much sooner
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  719. # [22:52] <Philip`> It's a foolproof plan
  720. # [22:52] <Hixie> there's one pretty fatal flaw with this plan
  721. # [22:53] <Hixie> no wait, two.
  722. # [22:53] <Hixie> though i guess the second one is the same as the first.
  723. # [22:53] <Hixie> so one.
  724. # [22:53] <Hixie> (namely, that script can have side-effects)
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  726. # [22:54] <Hixie> (the second one is that the script's side-effects include "taking time" which can be detected from script, but i guess you cuold make new Date() in the second script always return whatever it returned on that occurrence in the first script.)
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  728. # [23:00] <gsnedders> Hixie: Firefox should do a lot if you're on a traced path. If you're in method JIT, not so much.
  729. # [23:01] <jarek> Hi
  730. # [23:01] <jarek> why iframe is allowed by default to navigate the parent window?
  731. # [23:01] <jarek> isn't this potentialy dangerous?
  732. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> It's only allowed to do so when it's same-origin as the parent, right?
  733. # [23:02] <jarek> TabAtkins: I'm afraid not
  734. # [23:02] <jarek> no… wait, I have same origin policy disabled in browser
  735. # [23:03] <jarek> let me check
  736. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> Navigating the parent is how things break out of frames, no?
  737. # [23:03] <jarek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framekiller
  738. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> Isn't that one of the things <iframe sandbox> explicitly prevents?
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  740. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> Basically, if you include an <iframe> you're letting it take over the page, yes.
  741. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> sandbox is designed to prevent that.
  742. # [23:04] <jarek> it looks like any iframe (even from different origin) can overwrite parent's top.location value
  743. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> Sounds right.
  744. # [23:04] <Hixie> overriding top.location isn't a security problem
  745. # [23:06] <jarek> this permission could be used to redirect user to malicious website
  746. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Only if you're already embedding the malicious website.
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  751. # [23:11] <Hixie> jarek: yeah but the user could tell that he was going to a malicious website.
  752. # [23:11] <Hixie> jarek: because it would change the location bar
  753. # [23:12] <Hixie> jarek: the web's security model assumes that the user is aware of the origin of the current page and can determine if it's safe or not.
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  755. # [23:12] <Hixie> whether that's a safe assumption or not is open to debate, but if it's not, we have much bigger problems than top.location being settable
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  778. # Session Close: Tue Aug 02 00:00:00 2011

The end :)