/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 10 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jgraham> (quantum entanglement seems rather different because the entangled parts resolve into different states as needed to preserve physical invariants. Whereas here the ports presumably have the same information on both ends)
  4. # [00:01] <jgraham> I just mean taht postMessage(message, ports, targetOrigin) seems inconsistent with postMessage(message, targetOrigin)
  5. # [00:01] <jgraham> I would expect the additional argument to be last
  6. # [00:02] <Hixie> ah well the other way to look at it is postMessage() has two forms, (message) and (message, transferrables), and Window just adds an argument on the end of those
  7. # [00:02] <jgraham> (also entanglement suggests there is some kind of randomness which I assume there is not)
  8. # [00:02] <Hixie> depends which postMessage() you think of as canonical :-)
  9. # [00:02] <Hixie> yeah entanglement certainly isn't an exact metaphor
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  11. # [00:04] <zcorpan> jgraham: we implement all arguments to postMessage
  12. # [00:04] <jgraham> Well I don't find it as easy to view so the current spec makes sense and I would expect people to get it wrong more often this way around. But I don't feel strongly enough to dpend time advocating changing it or anything
  13. # [00:05] <jgraham> zcorpan: Oh, we implement the message channels stuff?
  14. # [00:05] <zcorpan> yes
  15. # [00:05] * Quits: stefan-_ (~music@hiwi0.wi2.uni-trier.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  16. # [00:05] <jgraham> Well I guess I should stop complaining about it now then ;)
  17. # [00:05] <Philip`> Hixie: About the canvas bug: I guess it depends on whether you think training authors to ignore non-machine-checkable conformance requirements is a problem, or if that's already a lost cause and so the spec might as well give some idealistic vision instead
  18. # [00:05] <zcorpan> since 10.60
  19. # [00:05] <jgraham> Ah, I thought we had just got workers, not the other stuff too
  20. # [00:06] <zewt> (i already pretty much ignore those "requirements"; they frankly seem rather nonsense to me)
  21. # [00:06] <zewt> (that one being a solid example of why)
  22. # [00:06] <zcorpan> it was implemented at the same time as workers
  23. # [00:06] <jgraham> Yeah, makes sense
  24. # [00:06] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah
  25. # [00:06] <zewt> (speaking as a random author :)
  26. # [00:06] <jgraham> (it still wouldn't be a big pain to change the argument order if it really helped. I can't image much depends on this yet)
  27. # [00:07] <jgraham> *imagine
  28. # [00:07] <jgraham> (But liek I say I really don't care all that much)
  29. # [00:07] <zcorpan> jgraham: we asked for the spec to change to the order it has now :)
  30. # [00:08] <jgraham> zcorpan: Well that was silly :p
  31. # [00:08] <jgraham> zcorpan: You mean you did? Why?
  32. # [00:08] <zcorpan> jgraham: makes sense to have the optional argument last
  33. # [00:09] <Hixie> hey, wait, yeah, what are you saying jgraham
  34. # [00:09] <Hixie> the order isn't what you said it was
  35. # [00:09] <Hixie> the order you described is what i would expect
  36. # [00:09] <Hixie> but yeah, we changed it
  37. # [00:10] * smaug____ needs to tests message channels and ports in Opera, since Webkit is too buggy
  38. # [00:10] <Hixie> smaug____: file bugs :-)
  39. # [00:10] <jgraham> Oh, in that case obviously zcorpan is an eminently sensible individual with good taste
  40. # [00:10] <smaug____> I'll file a bug to remove MessageChannel :p
  41. # [00:10] <jgraham> and I am probably tired enough to not notice when I am reading an old draft
  42. # [00:10] <jgraham> :)
  43. # [00:10] <jgraham> I think this suggests that sleep might be a good thing
  44. # [00:11] <Hixie> in oher news, what is with chrome stripping off a leading "javascript:" when i post a url into the url bar
  45. # [00:11] <Hixie> damn silly computers trying to stop me hurting myself
  46. # [00:11] <zewt> your browser knows best!
  47. # [00:11] <zcorpan> jgraham: actually it was sof and tarquin who pushed for changing the order, but i guess i did the emailing to public lists
  48. # [00:12] <zcorpan> smaug____: opera should be compliant as far as i know
  49. # [00:12] <smaug____> Hixie: I think other browsers are doing similar silly things. In FF there is at least some hidden pref to get back reasonable javascript: handling
  50. # [00:12] <zcorpan> lemme know if you find bugs :)
  51. # [00:12] <jgraham> zcorpan: Ah, well obviously Opera is full of people with good taste (as long as you define good taste as "agree with me" :) )
  52. # [00:13] <zewt> doesn't everyone?
  53. # [00:13] <jgraham> Hixie: A few scams on facebook and this is what happens :(
  54. # [00:15] <zewt> if they turn into "open the javascript console and paste this", will browsers start removing javascript consoles? heh
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  56. # [00:16] <Hixie> "type in the following C code and compile it, then run it with sudo"
  57. # [00:16] <zcorpan> yeah try that on facebook
  58. # [00:17] <Hixie> (i guess that explains the way iOS prevents the user from having access to the machine)
  59. # [00:17] <zewt> well, mobile devices are as interested in protecting the carrier from the user than the user from the internet
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  62. # [00:22] <zcorpan> maybe webidl can add a way to annotate an attribute so that it gets enumberable:false
  63. # [00:24] <smaug____> zcorpan: Opera seems to work well. The API is still bizarre
  64. # [00:24] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/ needs more google juice (compared to TR/)
  65. # [00:25] <zcorpan> smaug____: agree it's a bit confusing
  66. # [00:25] <zcorpan> smaug____: not convinced we should change it
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  69. # [00:32] * zcorpan -> sleep
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  79. # [01:10] <Hixie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English_usage_of_quotation_marks is rather humbling.
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  88. # [01:45] <hober> Hixie: indeed, hence dbaron's bug
  89. # [01:46] <Hixie> hm?
  90. # [01:46] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13718
  91. # [01:48] <Hixie> ah, interesting. hadn't seen that one yet.
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  93. # [01:48] <Hixie> can't really argue with the first point.
  94. # [01:48] <Hixie> for the second point, we tried that. people didn't go for it.
  95. # [01:49] <Hixie> or rather, we tried making <q> that.
  96. # [01:49] <Hixie> there isn't really a use case for the described element.
  97. # [01:49] <dbaron> for people who like semantics? :-)
  98. # [01:50] <dbaron> alternatively, deprecate <q> in favor of quotation marks
  99. # [01:51] <Hixie> semantics isn't a use case on its own
  100. # [01:51] <Hixie> the HTML spec already says that there's no reason to use <q> rather than quotation marks
  101. # [01:51] <Hixie> "The use of q elements to mark up quotations is entirely optional; using explicit quotation punctuation without q elements is just as correct."
  102. # [01:52] <Hixie> there's even an example
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  109. # [02:11] <Hixie> heycam: are you going to drop [AllowAny]?
  110. # [02:11] <Hixie> heycam: in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12870 you suggest i use it but the spec says it might go away
  111. # [02:14] <heycam> Hixie, probably not going to drop it
  112. # [02:14] <Hixie> k
  113. # [02:14] <heycam> Hixie, it's kind of ugly, but... *shrug*
  114. # [02:14] <Hixie> is there anything in JS that has a [[Call]] thingy but is not a Function?
  115. # [02:15] <heycam> Hixie, in the spec, I don't think so. but isn't there something with RegExp objects?
  116. # [02:16] <heycam> (might be completely wrong here)
  117. # [02:16] * Hixie tries setTimeout with a RegEcp
  118. # [02:16] <Hixie> RegExp
  119. # [02:17] <Hixie> ...i have no idea what i would test
  120. # [02:17] <heycam> maybe they're not going to be callable forever... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=582717
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  122. # [02:19] <Hixie> Having the domintro blocks and IDL blocks match isn't a goal, btw.
  123. # [02:19] <heycam> Hixie, ok, I understand that
  124. # [02:19] <heycam> you want to omit the finicky details
  125. # [02:19] <Hixie> I mean, they both have to match the same reality, but it's no problem if they use different arguments and stuff
  126. # [02:19] <Hixie> yeah
  127. # [02:19] <Hixie> (different argument names, that is)
  128. # [02:20] <Hixie> gotta love using more fancy webidl syntax though
  129. # [02:20] <heycam> except when it looks crazy and distracting
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  151. # [03:24] <gsnedders> heycam, Hixie: yeah, there's agreement between all major browser vendors to drop [[Call]] from RegExp. Some already have, some haven't, AFAIK.
  152. # [03:24] <gsnedders> (IE never had [[Call]] on RegExp)
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  154. # [03:25] <gsnedders> Ah, gone in Fx5. Probably in Saf5.1, too, though I'm not digging through SVN at this time to see if they have.
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  156. # [03:26] <gsnedders> Opera 11.50 dropped it too
  157. # [03:27] * gsnedders wishes all this stuff happened in public and not emails between JS developers — but it's considered off-topic for es-discuss as it's non-standard
  158. # [03:28] <AryehGregor> Use whatwg. :)
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  161. # [03:29] <Hixie> yeah you're welcome to use whatwg
  162. # [03:29] <Hixie> don't forget to update the relevant whatwg wiki page
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  177. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'll split bug 12986
  178. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> (the big "Last Call comments to HTML5" one)
  179. # [04:19] <zewt> If you're having problems seeing the site, it may be because Grooveshark doesn't support your current zoom level. To remedy this problem, simply press CTRL+0 (CMD+0 for Mac users) to return to your browser's default zoom level.
  180. # [04:19] <zewt> gross
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  182. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie: 13590 too
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  203. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> that was fun
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  210. # [06:34] <Hixie> MikeSmith: thanks dude
  211. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> no problem man
  212. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> I should have done it from the beginning
  213. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> was just being lazy
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  215. # [06:39] <Hixie> heh
  216. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: if I missed any others that need splitting, let me know
  217. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> btw, hsivonen can read your mind
  218. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> you made this change recently:
  219. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6387&to=6388
  220. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> about the <link> element for microdata
  221. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> but hsivonen already implemented checking for it in validator.nu exactly it that way last year
  222. # [06:46] <Hixie> cool
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  245. # [08:13] <Hixie> does css have a way to remove whitespace nodes these days?
  246. # [08:13] <Hixie> e.g. if i have <div><span/> <span/></div> and want to have the two spans be inline-blocks that touch, no space from the space character?
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  248. # [08:29] <benjoffe> Hixie: 'whitespace: discard;' should do that I think
  249. # [08:29] <Hixie> oooh
  250. # [08:29] <Hixie> is that implemented anywhere?
  251. # [08:29] <benjoffe> Not sure
  252. # [08:31] <benjoffe> white-space-collapse: discard;
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  255. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> Dadhacker: Revolutions That Weren’t - http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=1444 scroll down to the "Ex Em Hell" part
  256. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> "What we actually got: Any number of crappy serialization schemes and over-designed and under-implemented replacements for INI files. Undebuggable configuration files, poorly written attempts at replacements to already perfectly awful tools (yes, ANT and MSBuild, I’m thinking of you), and a lot of other smelly garbage littered with angle brackets."
  257. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> "We are still living this nightmare, with no end in sight."
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  278. # [10:19] <zcorpan> selectors has [foo^=bar], [foo$=bar] and [foo*=bar] but no way to match case-insensitively
  279. # [10:20] <zcorpan> [foo=/bar/i]
  280. # [10:21] <jgraham> Of course what selectors needs is to look even more like perl
  281. # [10:22] <zcorpan> is there a punctuation character that is usually used to indicate case-insensitivity?
  282. # [10:23] <jgraham> Well, I don't think using random punctuation would be *better*. I mean selectors is already a giant mess
  283. # [10:23] <woef> It would be nicer if html would be case-insensitive in the first place.
  284. # [10:24] <jgraham> But giving people /foo/i would make them think that foo was a regexp
  285. # [10:24] <zcorpan> woef: html *is* case-insensitive for various attribute values
  286. # [10:24] <jgraham> or /bar/i I guess, given your examples
  287. # [10:25] <zcorpan> yeah i was thinking maybe we should just allow full regexps. but maybe that's not acceptable
  288. # [10:25] <woef> zcorpan: so just css selector matching :)
  289. # [10:26] <zcorpan> woef: the problem is that selectors isn't case-insensitive
  290. # [10:26] <zcorpan> except there's an ugly hack to make it so for some attributes in text/html
  291. # [10:27] <jgraham> zcorpan: Well people could always write very slow regexp
  292. # [10:27] <zcorpan> yeah
  293. # [10:27] <jgraham> Or, I guess you could limit the syntax to real regexp and expect people to use something like that google library that is supposed to have good time behaviour in all cases
  294. # [10:28] <jgraham> But that seems like quite a lot of implementation complexity
  295. # [10:29] <jgraham> (re2)
  296. # [10:29] <zcorpan> yeah i'd like just a flag for case-insensitive, but would be nice if it could be used together with ^= $= and *=
  297. # [10:29] <jgraham> (but the site seems to be down)
  298. # [10:29] <zcorpan> and doesn't look like a smiley
  299. # [10:29] <zcorpan> ^_=
  300. # [10:29] <zcorpan> or, what the hell
  301. # [10:30] <zcorpan> ^:=
  302. # [10:31] <zcorpan> that looks ok
  303. # [10:32] <woef> http://images2.layoutsparks.com/1/112359/punisher-black-white-face.jpg -> looks a lit like the Punisher logo :p
  304. # [10:33] <zcorpan> awesome
  305. # [10:33] * jgraham doesn't like the fact that CSS loosk increasingly like a cat walking across the number keys whilst holding down shift
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  309. # [10:38] <woef> ^_= looks like you just punched someone in the face. Which I guess is exactly what you want to do if you have to worry about case sensitivity in html attributes :x
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  320. # [11:24] <Philip`> zcorpan: Maybe [lc(foo)^=bar] so it's case-sensitive matching a forced-to-lowercase value
  321. # [11:30] <zcorpan> wfm
  322. # [11:31] <zcorpan> but wouldn't you do [foo^=lc(bar)] ?
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  324. # [11:33] <Philip`> bar is the string the user typed into the selector and they'll have already written that in lowercase, so no
  325. # [11:34] * Parts: danj2 (~danj@s15372200.onlinehome-server.info) ("Came, saw, parted")
  326. # [11:34] <Philip`> foo is the attribute which they don't know the case of and want to force to lowercase before matching
  327. # [11:34] <zcorpan> fair enough
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  364. # [12:45] <gsnedders> jgraham_: re2 is O(n) when matching, though can be O(n^2) compiling the regexp. It's the tradeoff you make for converting the NFA to a DFA.
  365. # [12:53] <Philip`> O(n^2) memory usage too, I think
  366. # [13:02] <jgraham_> gsnedders: But you could compile once per document rather than once per match, so it seems much more acceptable
  367. # [13:02] <jgraham_> Memory usage might be more of an issue
  368. # [13:02] <jgraham_> Not that I am advocating this at all
  369. # [13:02] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  370. # [13:07] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, might be good to redirect http://people.w3.org/mike/web-platform/
  371. # [13:07] <Ms2ger> Or at least remove D3C :)
  372. # [13:09] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, and add a link to xml-stylesheet?
  373. # [13:10] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@adsl-83-100-253-226.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  374. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: done and done
  375. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> thanks
  376. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  377. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> I think that was the reason I've got "<?xml-stylesheet" written on my desk
  378. # [13:17] * Ms2ger gets an eraser
  379. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> heh
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  382. # [13:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: Indeed.
  383. # [13:27] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: surely you had it on your desk because you wanted to praise me for having worked on it
  384. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, it's a mess of a spec
  385. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I mean, er..
  386. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> Huh
  387. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6403&to=6404
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  390. # [13:30] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i blame the WG for working against me :P
  391. # [13:30] <Ms2ger> I guess that's actually true
  392. # [13:32] * Ms2ger shakes his fist at XMLCore
  393. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> nice, I just committed revision 666 of the validator.nu schema
  394. # [13:37] * MikeSmith breaks out some champagne and upside-down crosses
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  396. # [13:42] <MikeSmith_> test automation UI that Francois set up is nice:
  397. # [13:42] <MikeSmith_> http://w3c-test.org/framework/suite/nav-timing-default/
  398. # [13:43] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what wsa the commit?
  399. # [13:43] <Ms2ger> Section "4.3: The"
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  402. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: https://bitbucket.org/validator/syntax/changeset/51b2578b6d58
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  404. # [13:46] <zcorpan> evil
  405. # [13:47] <jgraham_> MikeSmith: Uh, opinions about that might vary :)
  406. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> well, it's a start
  407. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> it was totally manual before
  408. # [13:47] <jgraham_> I was quite surprised that it auto0submitted my results to the W3C
  409. # [13:48] <jgraham_> Maybe it said somewhere that it would, but that makes it pretty toxic for people who don't work entirely in public
  410. # [13:49] * jgraham_ is now known as jgraham
  411. # [13:49] <jgraham> I should point this out on the mailing list
  412. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> oh
  413. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
  414. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> true
  415. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> needs a warning and/or confirmation dialog of some kind
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  417. # [13:55] <jgraham> In general I am a test-framework skeptic
  418. # [13:55] <Ms2ger> [x] Report test results automatically (when possible)
  419. # [13:55] * Ms2ger missed that as well the first time
  420. # [13:56] <jgraham> I don't think the problem it is trying to solve ("we need test reports to get to CR") is actually the right problem to focus on
  421. # [13:57] <jgraham> The right problem to focus on is "how do we get vendors running all the tests every day"
  422. # [13:57] <jgraham> Once you have that, the "we need the results" thing becomes trivial
  423. # [13:57] <Ms2ger> Working on that...
  424. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> (And IE every three days, I presume)
  425. # [13:58] <jgraham> Heh
  426. # [13:58] * jgraham is working on it too
  427. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> Next up: useful tests
  428. # [13:59] <jgraham> Yep. We are getting there, slowly
  429. # [14:00] <Ms2ger> And mostly on Opera's back, or so it seems
  430. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> <noscript><p>Enable JavaScript and reload</p></noscript> <-- Is that common in your tests? :)
  431. # [14:01] <jgraham> That is in our internal guidelines
  432. # [14:01] <jgraham> I have suggested it is silly
  433. # [14:02] <jgraham> But apparently it isn't so silly that the people who have been doing it habitually want to stop
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  435. # [14:03] <Ms2ger> The same guidelines that want window.undefined? :)
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  437. # [14:04] <jgraham> No, that's just Tarquin :)
  438. # [14:04] <zcorpan> maybe i should start writing window.frames.self.undefined
  439. # [14:04] <zcorpan> you can almost form a sentence with attributes that return window
  440. # [14:07] <zcorpan> hmm there weren't more than those, how disappointing
  441. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> Gecko has _content
  442. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> And content
  443. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> Not sure what they do exactly
  444. # [14:08] <zcorpan> huh, didn't know about those
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  447. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> Interestingly enough, if you set window.content yourself, _content will mirror that
  448. # [14:12] <zcorpan> window === content // false
  449. # [14:12] <zcorpan> window === _content // false
  450. # [14:12] <zcorpan> content is enumerable but _content is not
  451. # [14:13] <zcorpan> _content = 1 does nothing
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  453. # [14:14] <Ms2ger> Nope
  454. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> We only handle it when getting
  455. # [14:15] * Ms2ger wants all this code to die
  456. # [14:16] <zcorpan> is there a bug?
  457. # [14:17] <Ms2ger> For getting bindings that don't suck as much? Yes, probably
  458. # [14:19] <zcorpan> i meant for dropping content and _content
  459. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Might be something for extensions
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  463. # [14:31] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: is it possible to tweak the settings for which emails go to public-html-bugzilla so that if only the cc list is changed, don't send an email?
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  465. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> Should be
  466. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah
  467. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> will do that in a bit
  468. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> but now, breakfast
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  505. # [16:08] <benjoffe_> I'm surprised that no browser has implemented a special readable stylesheet for html pages that have no styles or scripts
  506. # [16:09] <Ms2ger> I'm not
  507. # [16:09] <Ms2ger> There is lots of other stuff to do
  508. # [16:10] <miketaylr> safari has that reader/readability feature
  509. # [16:10] <benjoffe_> This wouldn't be hard to implement, and there's tonnes of pages out there like this, especially academic content
  510. # [16:11] <benjoffe_> miketaylr: I'm thinking something like that but with all the links and forms styled well inline too
  511. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> You can use a bookmarklet.
  512. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> I have one called Readability.
  513. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> I use it for pages with horrible contrast or such.
  514. # [16:15] <benjoffe_> I know there's ways for me to consume this content, but I'm just surprised none of them have anything decent on by default
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  520. # [16:23] <AryehGregor> Someone seriously needs to tell Google Maps about the 184th Street entrance to the 181st Street A station. And the Bennett Avenue entrance to the 190th A. It seems to think there's only one entrance to each station, and it totally messes up the directions it gives.
  521. # [16:24] <AryehGregor> Like thinking it makes as much sense to tell you to walk to 181st and St. Nicholas to get to the 1 as walking to 181st and Fort Washington to get to the A, when you're starting at 184th and Overlook and there's an entrance to the A like fifty feet away.
  522. # [16:24] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Not as bad as Subway station closest to me, it's ignorant of there is a staircase down from bridge to where it is, so makes you go a huge long way around
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  524. # [16:25] <zewt> as much as I like gmaps, I really wish Garmin would make an Android release
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  526. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> It does that with the 190th A.
  527. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> There's an entrance on Bennett and one on Fort Washington, and to get from one to the other you have to walk several blocks around because Fort Washington is on top of a cliff overlooking Bennett at that point.
  528. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> Google Maps only knows about the Fort Washington entrance.
  529. # [16:27] <gsnedders> It's really quite amusing around where I used to live: such a random selection of footpaths on it.
  530. # [16:27] * AryehGregor tries http://maps.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=162873
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  533. # [16:29] <zewt> is glenn adams trolling? heh
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  535. # [16:29] <Ms2ger> zewt, no comment :)
  536. # [16:33] <jgraham> Someone should tell him why W3C publishes "technical recommendations"
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  538. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> De Jure Standards, I'm telling you!
  539. # [16:34] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Not available in the UK, so can't do that for here…
  540. # [16:34] <jgraham> SOmeone whould tell me how the fuck I have managed to break virtualbox so that installing guest additions has no effect
  541. # [16:35] <zewt> through the power of song
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  572. # [17:39] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  598. # [19:03] * AryehGregor does not understand how someone can *consistently* misspell his name as "Areyeh" when communicating in a text medium where his name is presented with the correct spelling on every post
  599. # [19:04] <gesa> Someone doesn't know how to properly utilize copy & paste. Clearly
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  603. # [19:08] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Some people consistently can't even spell "Philip" :-(
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  605. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> Phillip`: Hmm?
  606. # [19:09] * Philip` generally avoids referring to people by name entirely, and sticks with pronouns where possible, else is careful to double-check and/or copy-and-paste their names
  607. # [19:12] * jgraham gets Philip wrong at least 50% of the time unless there is tab completion
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  610. # [19:16] <jgraham> (otoh, people very often forget that the possesive of James is spelt James')
  611. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> Jame's or James's?
  612. # [19:17] <zewt> james's
  613. # [19:17] <zewt> there is not more than one jame :)
  614. # [19:17] <jgraham> mmm jam
  615. # [19:17] <jgraham> Sorry we were talking about food, right?
  616. # [19:18] <jgraham> I believe that the extra s is also acceptable
  617. # [19:18] <zewt> people regularly call me "glen", even when writing my name in an email where my name, correctly spelled, is right there on screen
  618. # [19:18] <zewt> i'd consider james' flatly incorrect, fwiw
  619. # [19:19] * Ms2ger raises a FORMAL COMPLAINT against James'
  620. # [19:19] <jgraham> Well maybe I get it wrong then :p But the mistake I had in mind was not having any suffix at all
  621. # [19:19] <gsnedders> zewt: What is your name?
  622. # [19:20] <zewt> glenn
  623. # [19:20] <gsnedders> I see all kinds of variations of Geoffrey. Most commonly "Geoffery".
  624. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> Are you the Glenn on webapps?
  625. # [19:20] <zewt> there are two Glenns on webapps
  626. # [19:20] <zewt> one of which I am not
  627. # [19:20] <jgraham> zewt: You should tell the other Gleen that he is brining your name into disrepute
  628. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> It would be weird if you were both
  629. # [19:20] <zewt> i'm certainly not the one (seemingly) trolling against whatwg today, heh
  630. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> Good
  631. # [19:21] <jgraham> Not much weirder than the two Philip Taylors on public-html
  632. # [19:21] <zewt> it's sad when it's more important to explain clearly who you are not than who you are
  633. # [19:21] <zewt> it sure is confusing when hixie refers to "Ian"
  634. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> That
  635. # [19:21] * Philip` would generally consider "James'" to be probably technically acceptable but old-fashioned and silly, kind of like "an historic" or "the data are"
  636. # [19:22] * Ms2ger thinks Philip` is an hero
  637. # [19:22] * jgraham thinks that insisting data is plural is... very annoying
  638. # [19:22] <zewt> i'd personally consider it technically incorrect because the "s'" construction is for plural possessives
  639. # [19:23] <zewt> at least "an historic" and "data are" i know where they come from
  640. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Octopodes, I'm telling you
  641. # [19:25] <Philip`> zewt: It's not childrens' etc - I see it as more related to ending with an s rather than being a plural (and rather than being a plural that ends with an s)
  642. # [19:25] <zewt> and i assume everyone else over 20 is also righteously infuriated over such nonsense as "on accident"
  643. # [19:26] <Philip`> (though I'm just going by what seems right, rather than what is officially right in some sense)
  644. # [19:27] <jgraham> Yeah, I would also say "gsnedders'" but "zewt's"
  645. # [19:27] <zewt> Philip`: but the "'s" is pronounced as a separate "s", where "s'" is not; for example, we do pronounce two s's in "boss's"
  646. # [19:27] <jgraham> (umm, obviously the latter)
  647. # [19:27] <zewt> likewise for "james's", it's not pronounced as "james desk"
  648. # [19:27] <Ms2ger> !summon timeless
  649. # [19:27] <Philip`> zewt: Surely nobody would say something like that by purpose?
  650. # [19:27] <zewt> *smack*
  651. # [19:28] <jgraham> zewt: You seem to be mistakenly assuming a clean mapping between English spelling and pronounciation
  652. # [19:28] <zewt> people under around 20 seem to be saying "on purpose" a lot, which makes me sad (there are some others, though I'm having trouble recalling them off-hand)
  653. # [19:29] <zewt> there's a reasonably consistent mapping between "s'" and "s's" and one or two s sounds, in all cases I can think of
  654. # [19:29] <zewt> english certainly isn't a consistent language, but that doesn't mean it has no consistencies at all :)
  655. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> Those it has are probably accidents
  656. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> it would be very cool to actually rescind a Rec
  657. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> for a number of reasons
  658. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> including having a precedent
  659. # [19:31] <zewt> show that it can be done? heh
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  661. # [19:33] <Philip`> Let's rescind them all and start again from scratch
  662. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> Philip`, want to write two paragraphs to rescind Views?
  663. # [19:34] * Joins: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
  664. # [19:35] <Philip`> Since I don't know what it is, no
  665. # [19:35] <timeless> anyone here familiar w/ <input type=number> ?
  666. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> Ah, timeless
  667. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> timeless, want to write two paragraphs to rescind Views? :)
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  669. # [19:41] <Philip`> I guess that's a no?
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  672. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> :(
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  684. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> So delete window.Node should do what?
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  688. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Nothing good, I suspect.
  689. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> >.<
  690. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> It seems like the answer is "Nothing", but I can't figure out why that is
  691. # [20:29] * AryehGregor recommends summoning heycam|away
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  693. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> I tried
  694. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> He's always away
  695. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> I mean, it's past 6AM in NZ
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  701. # [20:40] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Well, I guess window.Node.[[Configurable]] = false
  702. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> No
  703. # [20:41] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: But I guess you mean in IDL terms?
  704. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> The property has the attributes { [[Writable]]: true, [[Enumerable]]: false, [[Configurable]]: true }.
  705. # [20:42] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-interfaces
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  708. # [20:43] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: The global object is odd and defined nowhere in real terms :(
  709. # [20:43] * Ms2ger sighs
  710. # [20:44] * Ms2ger files a bug
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  713. # [20:46] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Look at self and parent for the *real* gfun.
  714. # [20:46] <gsnedders> *fun
  715. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> No thanks
  716. # [20:46] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  717. # [20:46] <w3ztb0y> is there any indonesian people??
  718. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> Presumably there are
  719. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> AFAIK, Indonesia hasn't been abandoned
  720. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Even if it had, wouldn't there still be Indonesian expatriates?
  721. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> Would you call them Indonesian people in that case? Presumably yes.
  722. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> Sure.
  723. # [20:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie: whitespace-collapse:discard isnt' yet implemented anywhere afaik. But it's definitely awesome, for precisely the case you mention.
  724. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> it does sound awesome.
  725. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> w3ztb0y, no, no one here is Indonesian.
  726. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> zcorpan, others: Selectors 4 introduced a way to match attributes case-insensitively a few weeks ago.
  727. # [20:50] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah once i saw it i realised it was what we were talking about back in 2003 or so
  728. # [20:50] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  729. # [20:50] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i still think we should get rid of the three properties and still only use white-space, with whatever keywords make sense
  730. # [20:50] <Ms2ger> Hixie, then it should be implemented in 5 years or so
  731. # [20:51] <Hixie> TabAtkins: since the vast majority of the combinations make no sense at all
  732. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> Send email to www-style
  733. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, won't that force browsers to keep a separate case-normalized copy of every attribute value? Do they actually want to do that?
  734. # [20:51] <Hixie> Ms2ger: dude, you obviously aren't familiar with the csswg's specs' schedules (especially fantasai's...)
  735. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> The CSSWG apparently thinks you don't know about www-style
  736. # [20:52] <Hixie> by "the CSSWG" do you mean daniel? :-)
  737. # [20:53] * Parts: w3ztb0y (~belajar@114.79.63.129)
  738. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Nah, fantasai was making fun of you for saying that you weren't sure how to ask the CSSWG to handle ::paragraphs.
  739. # [20:54] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  740. # [20:54] <Hixie> what i wasn't sure about was whether there was some convenient way to just reassign the bug
  741. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> No, we don't use the bugtracker for feature requests.
  742. # [20:55] <Hixie> lame
  743. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> Those are solely handled on the mailing list.
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  745. # [20:55] <Hixie> where are they tracked?
  746. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> The editor's heads
  747. # [20:55] <Hixie> i'm going to go back to "lame"
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  749. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> Hmm
  750. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> Various places. We're consolidating to *tracking* on a bugtracker.
  751. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> s/a bugtracker/bugzilla/
  752. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> That's a bit of a strange picture
  753. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> But discussion shouldn't ever happen on bugzilla.
  754. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> *The editors' heads
  755. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> /lunch
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  757. # [20:57] <Hixie> well where discussion happens is not really my concern
  758. # [20:57] <Hixie> i just wanted to get the bug off my list :-P
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  761. # [20:57] <zewt> when you run out of space, do you have to buy a razor
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  785. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I think that wrapping and whitespace collapsing and newline collapsing are all distinct, and useful to control separately, so the separate properties are good.
  786. # [22:12] * jgraham blinks
  787. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Don't stop blinking!
  788. # [22:14] <jgraham> TabAtkins: It's OK I think that I will keep blinking for as long as I keep getting email about the W3C test framework thing.
  789. # [22:15] <jgraham> It is being built with a set of assumptions that are quite alien to me
  790. # [22:15] * jgraham should try to ignore it
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  794. # [22:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think giving authors switches where the majority of possible setting combinations are bad when we can enumerate the good ones is bad UI
  795. # [22:36] <matjas> is there a point in using @defer when you only use a single <script> and it’s at the bottom, right before </body>?
  796. # [22:36] <Hixie> not really
  797. # [22:38] <matjas> not really or not at all?
  798. # [22:38] <matjas> what is the point?
  799. # [22:39] <Hixie> there's no point that i can think of
  800. # [22:39] <Ms2ger> Being fancy! :)
  801. # [22:39] <Hixie> there are some subtle minor differences, but nothing useful i don't think
  802. # [22:43] <matjas> Hixie: it seems to make a difference in rendering, at least in Chrome
  803. # [22:43] <matjas> compare http://stevesouders.com/cuzillion/?c0=bi1hfff2_0_f&c1=bj1hfff2_0_f&t=1313008395 and http://stevesouders.com/cuzillion/?c0=bi1hfff2_0_f&c1=bj1hfft2_0_f&t=1313008412
  804. # [22:44] <matjas> first test is blank until the script is loaded, second test (with @defer) displays the table “immediately”, then shows the last line after the script is loaded
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  806. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> QoI
  807. # [22:44] <Hixie> that's a browser detail
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  810. # [22:48] <Hixie> jgraham: 504ing
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  825. # [23:28] <jgraham> Hixie: I really don't know what to do. The only message in the logs is about the ekkepalive connection being closed which afaict from the docs is an effect rather than the cause
  826. # [23:29] <jgraham> *keepalive
  827. # [23:29] <Hixie> any idea _which_ connection?
  828. # [23:29] <Hixie> when does the problem occur?
  829. # [23:29] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  831. # [23:36] <jgraham> Well I assume that what's happening is that the host has changed their setup to use nginx as a frontend for all requests and then send them to apache if needed. And sometimes the script takes a little bit too long and nginx gets bored waiting for a response
  832. # [23:36] <Hixie> aaah
  833. # [23:36] <Hixie> interesting
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  835. # [23:36] <Hixie> no way to change the timeout?
  836. # [23:36] <Hixie> maybe make your script send stuff back regularly?
  837. # [23:37] <Hixie> i ignore what you send back, iirc
  838. # [23:37] <Hixie> oh no wait
  839. # [23:37] <jgraham> I'm looking to see if there is a timeout
  840. # [23:37] <Hixie> that's for the multipage thing
  841. # [23:37] <Hixie> i actually use your output
  842. # [23:37] <Hixie> you could send back something in a comment at the top that i then strip out
  843. # [23:37] <Hixie> <!-- progress... line 1000... line 2000... line 3000...
  844. # [23:37] <Hixie> or whatever
  845. # [23:42] <jgraham> I probably can
  846. # [23:42] <jgraham> But it is going to be a crazy hack
  847. # [23:43] <Hixie> up to you :-)
  848. # [23:43] <Hixie> on my end the entire pipeline is one long series of crazy hacks
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  850. # [23:44] <Philip`> Only a long series, not a complex interconnected DAG?
  851. # [23:45] <Philip`> (or even a cyclic one)
  852. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: Then it wouldn't be a DAG
  853. # [23:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: That's presumably why he said "or even"
  854. # [23:46] <Philip`> I didn't mean to imply it would be
  855. # [23:48] <jgraham> Hixie: I think it is too late at night for crazy hacks right now. Hopefully I will wake up with a better idea than I have right now
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  858. # Session Close: Thu Aug 11 00:00:01 2011

The end :)