/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 13 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  20. # [01:14] <Philip`> http://chrome.blogspot.com/2011/08/building-better-web-apps-with-new.html - is that NaCl and not PNaCl, so they're not even pretending to be CPU-architecture-independent?
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  23. # [01:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: NaCL, AIUI
  24. # [01:23] <Hixie> seems that way. "Native Client modules are operating system independent, not (yet) processor independent. Therefore, you must compile separate versions of the Native Client module for x86-32-bit, x86-64-bit, and other instruction sets. The manifest file, specified in the src attribute of the <embed> tag, specifies which version of the Native Client module to load, depending on the end-user's processor." - ...
  25. # [01:23] <Hixie> ... http://code.google.com/chrome/nativeclient/docs/technical_overview.html
  26. # [01:23] * Hixie raises an eyebrow at the irssi module he apparently set up
  27. # [01:23] <Hixie> neat
  28. # [01:24] <wilhelm> splitlong ftw.
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  35. # [02:06] <gsnedders> http://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2011/08/fuzzing-at-scale.html?m=1
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  72. # [04:28] <heycam> Hixie, sorry ;)
  73. # [04:29] <heycam> Hixie, you could subscribe to member-webapi-cvs or whatever it's called
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  77. # [04:41] <Hixie> hm, i thought i had
  78. # [04:42] <heycam> ah so it never got added to the spec as [NonConfigurable]
  79. # [04:42] <Hixie> oh, right, i didn't because it was so noisy (lots of widget stuff and stuff about stuff i do)
  80. # [04:42] <heycam> procmailrc is your friend :)
  81. # [04:42] <Hixie> or equivalent, yeah
  82. # [04:43] <Hixie> well let's subscribe and add filters as i get tired
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  115. # [07:48] <Hixie> ...you can't take a screenshot of dvd player on mac. wtf.
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  118. # [08:05] <Rik`> Hixie: vlc should be ok
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  120. # [08:07] <gesa> HAHAHA You can, it just shows a photoshop-esque transparency grid. WTF.
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  122. # [08:10] <Hixie> Rik`: i just ended up taking a screen shot of screen sharing on another machine looking at this one...
  123. # [08:11] <Rik`> if you want other stupid things with dvd player : http://www.hardmac.com/news/2008/12/19/use-dvdplayer-5-0-3-with-an-external-reader
  124. # [08:11] <gesa> Hixie: Now that's solution finding...
  125. # [08:12] <Rik`> I like the fact that it's by only using software that Apple ships
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  127. # [08:12] <Hixie> i was going to screen share to another machine then screen share from that one back, so i could do it all without getting up, but for some reason i can't screen share in that direction at the moment. some configuration issue.
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  129. # [08:28] <Hixie> wow now i've got dvd player in a completely wacked state where it's in full-screen mode, but the video is playing in a window UI... wtf
  130. # [08:28] <Hixie> and it pauses if i switch to the space with the dvd player but works fine if i switch to another
  131. # [08:29] <Hixie> jesus
  132. # [08:29] <Hixie> time for a reboot?
  133. # [08:29] <gesa> so.... window on black background? Wait wait, let me guess, you're on Lion?
  134. # [08:29] <Hixie> the background is actually lion's weird fabric background!
  135. # [08:29] <gesa> Time for a reboot.
  136. # [08:29] * gesa is feeling pretty smug for waiting til 10.7.1 ships for an upgrade
  137. # [08:29] <Hixie> ok now the mission control thingy has stopped responding.
  138. # [08:29] <Hixie> definitely rebooting.
  139. # [08:30] <Hixie> yeah lion is pretty damn buggy
  140. # [08:30] <gesa> <-- former Apple employee. I learned things.
  141. # [08:30] <gesa> (Patience, that is.)
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  147. # [09:18] <Hixie> rebooting worked a charm.
  148. # [09:18] <Hixie> of course at the same time the trackpad's batteries died.
  149. # [09:19] <Hixie> and lion with a mouse isn't pleasant.
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  160. # [10:23] <annevk> zcorpan, complete/ is generated on html5.org
  161. # [10:24] <annevk> I'm not sure if I published the splitter script I use somewhere, but that would have to be updated to whatever Philip` updated it to I suppose
  162. # [10:24] <annevk> We should get rid of the /html /C distinction anyway
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  169. # [11:42] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-new-status status code for captive portals...
  170. # [11:42] <annevk> I wonder if that'll get traction
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  176. # [11:55] <annevk> ooh
  177. # [11:55] <annevk> almost have my first W3C REC
  178. # [11:56] <GlitchMr> I love how XHTML5 cannot be used with text/html :).
  179. # [11:57] <GlitchMr> (technically, XHTML1.1 also couldn't be used, but some did pages with XHTML1.1 DOCTYPE and text/html)
  180. # [11:58] <annevk> I know I did
  181. # [11:59] <GlitchMr> Wait... so <a href=#> is valid HTML5?
  182. # [12:00] <GlitchMr> I through that in HTML only [a-zA-Z0-9_.-] could be unquoted... I read specification and I learn new things...
  183. # [12:02] <annevk> HTML5 is a bit more flexible
  184. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> Hah, I did XHTML1.1 with application/xhtml+xml
  185. # [12:03] <GlitchMr> That's good :)
  186. # [12:03] <GlitchMr> It annoys me to see XHTML DOCTYPE and text/html
  187. # [12:04] <GlitchMr> If sites say text/html, that means they're HTML. But using /> is invalid HTML (I don't count HTML5, it's different thing).
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  189. # [12:05] <GlitchMr> Hi, Amorphous
  190. # [12:05] <Ms2ger> It's conforming WHATWG HTML in any case
  191. # [12:05] <annevk> Got to love that DOM Views thread
  192. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> And MS
  193. # [12:06] <annevk> The WebApps WG decided somewhere in 2009 to add a note to that document and Ian Jacobs back then said it was okay
  194. # [12:06] <annevk> Then I finally got around to it and we had to rescind it instead
  195. # [12:06] <annevk> Now it is okay again
  196. # [12:06] <annevk> And MS is acting silly as a bonus
  197. # [12:07] <GlitchMr> IE9 doesn't fail on errors in application/xhtml+xml. Kinda weird...
  198. # [12:09] <annevk> "Therefore we have rejected this issue and retained the scroll event as a UIEvent."
  199. # [12:09] <annevk> DOM Level 3 Events is such a disaster
  200. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> Noticed their dependency on HTML5?
  201. # [12:11] <annevk> haha but not Web IDL?
  202. # [12:11] <annevk> classic
  203. # [12:12] <Ms2ger> But they actually claim it's informative
  204. # [12:12] <annevk> of course
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  206. # [12:19] <annevk> I wonder if it is worth fighting DOM3Events or whether I should focus on something else
  207. # [12:20] <annevk> The reasoning Microsoft gives is often very bad, but nobody else seems to care
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  214. # [12:33] <roc> I think smaug cares
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  218. # [12:43] <annevk> I think he might attend the teleconferences yes
  219. # [12:43] <annevk> I really wonder though how he would agree to things like
  220. # [12:43] <annevk> "We agreed that the scroll event fits as a UIEvent from a taxonomy standpoint."
  221. # [12:43] <annevk> As he normally is quite opposed to useless cruft
  222. # [12:43] <annevk> So either he is not paying much attention or something else is going on
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  225. # [12:58] <annevk> By the way, thanks Ms2ger and AryehGregor for replying on the DOM Core thread
  226. # [12:59] <annevk> AryehGregor, merging in Range is already listed as open issue, I'm not in a hurry to actually do it quite yet though
  227. # [12:59] <roc> talk to him
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  230. # [13:22] <annevk> createElementNS("http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "TABLE")
  231. # [13:23] <annevk> HTMLUnknownElement yay
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  235. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> WebKit implemented HTMLUnknownElement recently
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  237. # [13:46] <annevk> Ms2ger, any idea on how to implement http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/xhr-source using --filter instead?
  238. # [13:46] <annevk> Would be kind of nice to just use the Makefile
  239. # [13:49] <Ms2ger> ...For the last Last Call Working Draft < Heh
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  241. # [13:54] <Ms2ger> Shouldn't be too hard, I think
  242. # [13:54] <Ms2ger> Or you can run your script from the Makefile
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  244. # [13:59] <annevk> That's an interesting idea
  245. # [14:06] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Interseting. I know othermaciej was against it — though never got around to writing anything objecting to it as he said he would.
  246. # [14:06] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/2011/08/09-minutes#item05 :)
  247. # [14:08] <gsnedders> Still sad the reason why it had to get into the spec. :( (The only mostly standards based code-path on Yahoo Mail is the Gecko one — both the WebKit and IE ones rely on non-standard stuff — so for any other browser to be competitive you have to implement the only-just-being-specced HTMLUnknownElement, XMLParser, and DOMSerializer, and change your UA string to pretend to be Firefox.)
  248. # [14:08] <gsnedders> (And people care about Yahoo Mail, so you have to support one of their three browser-specific code-paths)
  249. # [14:11] <roc> what non-standard stuff does the Webkit code path use?
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  251. # [14:11] <gsnedders> roc: I forget — it was quite a long time since I looked at it
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  253. # [14:22] <gsnedders> roc: Digging through bugs, I think it was relying on things like exact innerHTML serialization, random edge-cases around ranges.
  254. # [14:22] <gsnedders> (And, uh, it appears what eventually launched at the new Yahoo Mail supports us, if I understand correctly.)
  255. # [14:23] <roc> we should be able to get around those issues as the specs tighten up and Webkit fixes their bugs
  256. # [14:23] <gsnedders> roc: Yeah, indeed
  257. # [14:23] <roc> I'd be more worried if they were using Webkit-prefixed features or Web SQL DB or something
  258. # [14:24] <gsnedders> roc: We support Web SQL DB, so I probably wouldn't have noticed.
  259. # [14:24] <roc> *I'd* have been more worried :-)
  260. # [14:24] <gsnedders> roc: And it's entirely possible they are using WebKit-prefixed stuff in their WebKit branch. Certainly something Google does.
  261. # [14:24] <gsnedders> roc: Even though they give you a codepath for your engine? :)
  262. # [14:25] <gsnedders> roc: And I presume the Gecko codepath doesn't have WebKit-prefixed stuff. :)
  263. # [14:25] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, we care about the web, not just about Gecko ;)
  264. # [14:25] <roc> exacxtly!
  265. # [14:25] <gsnedders> Then I should start telling you about Google stuff.
  266. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> What, NaCl?
  267. # [14:27] <gsnedders> Most things have four code-paths: an IE one relying upon loads of IE bugs; a Gecko one using lots of Gecko-prefixed stuff; a WebKit one using lots of WebKit-prefixed stuff; and an Opera one using lots of Opera-prefixed stuff (and historically relying upon random bugs too, though we've managed to get rid of the worst of that to fix the bugs).
  268. # [14:27] <gsnedders> If you want to bring a new engine to market, you're pretty much fucked by Google.
  269. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> There is Opera-prefixed stuff? I thought you guys never got around to implementing something before everyone dropped prefixes? ;)
  270. # [14:31] <annevk> Wait, is this the reverse joke from we did everything back in 95?
  271. # [14:45] <roc> Ms2ger has a mean streak
  272. # [14:45] * Ms2ger bows
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  293. # [16:32] <annevk> oh yay
  294. # [16:33] <annevk> XMLHttpRequest was already correct with respect to fetch and asynchronously returning
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  296. # [16:45] <annevk> Ms2ger, did you move the XMLHttpRequest test suite?
  297. # [16:45] <annevk> Ms2ger, http://test.w3.org/webapps/tests/XMLHttpRequest/info.htm no longer being a valid link is annoying
  298. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> Yes, I think I did
  299. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> I can fix
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  303. # [16:57] <annevk> Not that anyone complained by the way
  304. # [16:57] <annevk> I wonder how many people noticed
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  308. # [17:12] <annevk> I keep discovering new fun issues in DOM Level 3 Events
  309. # [17:12] <annevk> ECMAScript is a reference but never referenced
  310. # [17:12] <annevk> The mapping of OMG IDL to ECMAScript is not defined
  311. # [17:13] <annevk> It talks about a PostScript version which does not exist, subsection of appendix G is labeled F, etc.
  312. # [17:13] <annevk> I think DOM Level 3 Events is a fine example of monkeypatching
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  314. # [17:19] <annevk> Can someone change http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Research&redirect=no so that it does not appear in the Proposals category?
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  316. # [17:24] <Dashiva> I think it's supposed to be [[:Category:Proposals]]
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  324. # [17:51] <gsnedders> annevk: Is there a testsuite for DOM Level 3 Events?
  325. # [17:51] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, a mostly manual one
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  327. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/tip/DOMEvents
  328. # [17:52] <annevk> thanks Dashiva
  329. # [17:52] <gsnedders> Because, although I know it's trolling, I'm so tempted to send feedback saying, "What defines that there is a createEvent property on this object? The IDL states there is something on the interface, but doesn't define that is actually exposed as a property."
  330. # [17:53] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, are you prepared to get an email back next year saying that that's intentional?
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  332. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Or that it's defined by the informative WebIDL appendix
  333. # [17:54] <gsnedders> "Please document that you are relying upon the informative appendix for the testsuite."
  334. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> No. Our customers rely on the stability of our tests, not on their correctness.
  335. # [17:56] <gsnedders> (Basically following the reducio ad absurdum route of making them call-out their only way to test their spec is by relying upon non-standard behaviour.)
  336. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> Sure
  337. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> Is it worth your time?
  338. # [17:58] <gsnedders> No. Not at all.
  339. # [17:58] <gsnedders> There's going to be interop because everyone will follow the informative appendix.
  340. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> "OpenClass - HTML 5 Workshop (Supported by Opera Software)"
  341. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> What?
  342. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> "Use this area to offer a short teaser of your email's content. Text here
  343. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> will show in the preview area of some email clients."
  344. # [18:01] <gsnedders> What?
  345. # [18:03] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@94.197.127.56.threembb.co.uk)
  346. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> One isn't expected to read that email in plain text mode
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  349. # [18:07] <gsnedders> Yeah, I got that much,
  350. # [18:07] <gsnedders> Just… what?
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  393. # [21:00] <jarek> Hi
  394. # [21:00] <gesa> Hi.
  395. # [21:01] <jarek> do you know of any compatability tables that would show which CSS featues are supported on mobiles?
  396. # [21:01] <paul_irish> http://caniuse.com is pretty good at that
  397. # [21:01] <jarek> I mean something like http://caniuse.com/, but with mobile browsers
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  399. # [21:01] <paul_irish> it has mobile browsers
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  401. # [21:02] <gesa> Yeah, far right column iirc
  402. # [21:02] <jarek> oh wait, indeed...
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  427. # [23:15] <jarek> what's the proper english term for describing the page area that is visible after load witout scrolling?
  428. # [23:15] <gesa> above the fold?
  429. # [23:17] <jarek> hmm… how about "fold area"? Would this still have the same meaning?
  430. # [23:17] <gesa> not entirely. what's the context?
  431. # [23:18] <jarek> uhm… it's a big complicated
  432. # [23:18] <gesa> "initial view"?
  433. # [23:18] <jarek> I have an app that shows a preview of the website, I would like to put a horizontal line in the place where page fold is
  434. # [23:19] <Philip`> http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/fold.php seems to use "first fold"
  435. # [23:19] <jarek> now I would like to toggle this feature via menu, but I don't know how to call it :)
  436. # [23:21] <jarek> Philip: thanks!
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  443. # [23:38] * Quits: janv_ (~varga@195.91.87.57) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  444. # [23:41] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.200.17.118) (Disconnected by services)
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  446. # [23:41] * xCG is now known as CvP
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  451. # [23:51] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  452. # Session Close: Sun Aug 14 00:00:00 2011

The end :)