/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-16 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Aug 16 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:28] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
# [00:28] <AryehGregor> So Apple wants the spec at the W3C, and people are in fact going to fork it if I don't publish it there.
# [00:28] <AryehGregor> All right, I lose.
# [00:29] <AryehGregor> Or at any rate, I give up. W3C it is.
# [00:29] <AryehGregor> No arguing with major implementers.
# [00:30] <annevk> offlist?
# [00:30] <annevk> and does "fork" mean publish?
# [00:31] <annevk> doesn't seem so bad to me
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# [00:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah, they'll do your work for you. ^_^
# [00:38] <annevk> found the relevant bug
# [00:38] <annevk> should get ourselves a pp
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# [00:40] <annevk> AryehGregor, also, have fun getting the WebApps WG recharter to take on that work item :p
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# [00:53] <mercator> Does HTML5 define somewhere how HTML tags are supposed to interact with context-sensitivity in Unicode characters?
# [00:53] <mercator> I.e. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7069247/css-formating-cursive-word-breaks-it
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# [00:54] <TabAtkins> mercator: That's a CSS issue, actually.
# [00:55] <Philip`> I thought at least Firefox was able to apply colours to characters without breaking apart ligatures etc
# [00:56] <TabAtkins> Should be able to, yes.
# [00:56] <Philip`> My Firefox on Linux does do that with that example
# [00:56] <Philip`> (Opera doesn't)
# [00:58] <mercator> TabAtkins: Is it? It does mention things like right-to-left embedding. Isn't this similar? The actual CSS being applied doesn't really matter. Should a tag break ligatures?
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# [00:59] <TabAtkins> mercator: In general, the answer is no, it shouldn't. Whether or not implementations support it properly is a different question.
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# [01:00] <annevk> we don't define things in that detail
# [01:00] <annevk> it's implementation quality atm
# [01:00] <annevk> much like line-breaking
# [01:03] <mercator> Hmmm, I suppose character selection in fonts *is* more CSS than HTML... And indeed, implementations are rather different.
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# [01:10] <roc> Anne's right of course, but this situation is a bit different from line breaking in that with line breaking, there often is no clearly "right" algorithm, but it's pretty clear that shaping across element boundaries *should* work
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# [01:17] <mercator> That might not always be the case, either, if, say, you float one part of the ligature or something... (But that is decidedly CSS.)
# [01:19] <roc> sure there are edge cases, but when it's obvious that it should work, it should work :-)
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# [01:22] <annevk> I wish writing specs worked like that
# [01:22] <annevk> Invoking X must do what is obvious for Y
# [01:23] <zewt> step 1: just do it
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# [01:31] <roc> I'm not suggesting specs should be written like that, of course. Just that implementation quality should be judged that way when specs are silent
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# [01:43] <mercator> Thanks for the insights!
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# [04:17] <boblet> foolip: know when microdata will be in a public (non-dev) release of Opera? I’m guessing Opera 12, but not sure if that’s imminent or a wee way off yet… (and yes that does mean I’m updating a certain article ;)
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# [04:20] <boblet> also, any Moz ppl know about the progress of microdata ref: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=591467 ? also guessing WIP and not imminent…
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# [05:11] <roc> boblet: looks like it just needs review ... that could happen anytime, and then it would show up in nightlies within a day or three
# [05:12] <boblet> roc: thanks for the explanation
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# [11:05] <smaug____> and yet another wontfix/reopen/wontfix/reopen cycle coming...
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# [11:10] <janv_> you mean bug 12945 ?
# [11:11] <janv_> ah
# [11:11] <janv_> I see
# [11:11] <janv_> just got the bugmail
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# [11:12] <smaug____> janv_: yep
# [11:13] <annevk> prolly more productive to try to get input from other implementors than argue in that bug
# [11:14] <smaug____> yeah, getting input from implementors would be great
# [11:14] <smaug____> randomly just wontfixing bugs isn't very productive
# [11:15] <annevk> I meant that as advice to you
# [11:15] <smaug____> :)
# [11:15] <annevk> he's not randomly wontfixing, he believes that design is appropriate
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# [11:15] <annevk> if you can find several implementors that disagree you can resolve it towards a design you find appropriate
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# [11:33] <foolip> boblet, it ought to be in the next stable release, yes
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# [11:34] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, you know why ranges' offsets are signed?
# [11:37] <annevk> are they in browsers?
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#
# Session Start: Tue Aug 16 14:45:36 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [14:45] * Now talking in #whatwg
# [14:45] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [14:45] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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# [15:55] <AryehGregor> annevk, the charter says the WebApps WG can take on stuff spun off from HTML5 without rechartering, if I read correctly.
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# [15:56] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, I have no idea. Do you mean specifically .startOffset and .endOffset, or also parameters to various methods like setStart()?
# [15:56] <AryehGregor> I can't see how it would be black-box detectable for .startOffset or .endOffset.
# [15:57] * jgraham really thinks the WebApps charter should read "any DOM API that two or more browser vendors are interested in implementing"
# [15:57] <AryehGregor> Actually, I don't see how it would be black-box detectable for .setStart() either, unless you have a node with about 2G children or character elements.
# [15:58] <AryehGregor> Because if it were unsigned, a negative number would wrap around to a large positive number, which winds up being INDEX_SIZE_ERR either way.
# [15:58] <AryehGregor> So how about we just make them all unsigned?
# [15:58] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I really think there shouldn't be working groups and charters. :)
# [15:59] <jgraham> Well yes, taht would be fine too
# [16:00] <jgraham> But seems less likely in the short term
# [16:00] <AryehGregor> Sadly.
# [16:01] <annevk> does seem like there needs to be AC review
# [16:01] <annevk> at the very least
# [16:02] <annevk> anyway, all that does not matter that much long term
# [16:02] <AryehGregor> Why not?
# [16:03] <annevk> well it's annoying, but mostly to people who actually have to sit through it
# [16:03] <annevk> it just delays publishing a WD
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# [16:04] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/QA/2011/08/subject_from_innovation_to_sta.html
# [16:05] <smaug____> AryehGregor: in which way should the standards be written if not in some kind of WGs
# [16:05] <smaug____> (just curious)
# [16:05] <annevk> community groups have better patent protection (at until REC, which hardly any spec reaches these days) and better licensing...
# [16:06] <AryehGregor> smaug____, in some format where there's no formal organization or membership at all. I mean, you'd want separate mailing lists and Bugzilla components and such, but no actual organization divisions are needed.
# [16:07] <AryehGregor> annevk, but will real specs be accepted as community groups? Worth trying . . .
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# [16:07] <smaug____> AryehGregor: might work, or might not
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# [16:08] <annevk> AryehGregor, as far as I know moving specs from WGs to CGs is somewhat problematic (though might be possible)
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# [16:08] <AryehGregor> smaug____, the WHATWG seems to have worked pretty well so far. We probably wouldn't even have to deal with the W3C at all if not for patent policies.
# [16:08] <annevk> AryehGregor, new specs such as DOM Parsing should be fairly trivial however
# [16:08] <smaug____> AryehGregor: WhatWG is a WG ;)
# [16:08] <AryehGregor> annevk, but what's the point? Is it going to make Apple or Microsoft happier to have it in a community group instead of some random website? If so, okay.
# [16:09] <AryehGregor> I'm game then.
# [16:09] <smaug____> in whatever form the standardization happens, there is always the problem what to do when there are conflicting opinions/interest
# [16:09] <AryehGregor> smaug____, not in the sense I was talking about -- there's no charter or membership or anything like that.
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# [16:09] <AryehGregor> If there are conflicting opinions on implementer requirements, implementers can work it out and specs will follow if they're being written sanely, because people want interop.
# [16:09] <annevk> AryehGregor, a) you have more patent protection than when you publish it as W3C WD; b) makes it easier to move it to REC within a WG when finished as I understand it
# [16:10] <AryehGregor> If the implementers can't work it out, like storage mutex or whatever, leave it undefined.
# [16:10] <AryehGregor> None of this chartering stuff is needed.
# [16:10] <annevk> WHATWG has a charter
# [16:10] <AryehGregor> annevk, okay, I'll be sure to run that by everyone. I don't mind having it at the W3C as long as it's in some place where I don't have to deal with the bureaucracy.
# [16:10] <annevk> and has some kind of committee
# [16:10] <AryehGregor> Not in practice.
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# [16:11] <annevk> also in practice, just not that visible
# [16:13] <AryehGregor> Not in practice, insofar as no one pays any attention to them and most people who participate heavily in the WHATWG haven't even heard of their existence.
# [16:13] <AryehGregor> If they have any significance, it's as documentation of what we'd all do anyway even if it weren't officially written down anywhere.
# [16:13] <Ms2ger> So the difference is that the WHATWG's committee works in secret and the HTMLWG's in public? :)
# [16:14] <annevk> I meant that we don't interfere much as it's not deemed necessary
# [16:14] <AryehGregor> You'd have about as much say whether or not you were officially part of some committee.
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# [16:15] <AryehGregor> The reason you have say is really because you're implementers, not because you're on the steering committee.
# [16:15] <annevk> if you say so
# [16:15] <AryehGregor> When was the last time Hixie did anything he didn't want to do because the steering committee told him to?
# [16:15] <AryehGregor> More to the point, what practical enforcement mechanism is there if the steering committee wants to tell Hixie what to do?
# [16:16] <Ms2ger> Kick him out
# [16:16] <AryehGregor> He owns the domain name, he can do whatever he feels like. At the W3C, the Team holds the cards.
# [16:16] <AryehGregor> Or whatever, the W3C staff.
# [16:16] <AryehGregor> Yeah, right, so we'd have the WHATWG operating without Hixie. I really see that happening.
# [16:18] * annevk goes back to work on mutation events
# [16:18] <smaug____> annevk: what are you doing to them?
# [16:19] * smaug____ goes back to implement the replacement
# [16:19] <annevk> sorting out the arguments for end of task and return of outermost method
# [16:19] <annevk> and fleshing them out a bit better
# [16:20] <annevk> the end of task arguments are somewhat compelling I think, just not that clear currently
# [16:22] <smaug____> the end of task suffers badly from the case that one would need to be very careful to not do certain modal stuff in the same task as dom mutations
# [16:22] <annevk> is there anything besides showModalDialog?
# [16:22] <smaug____> the spec does have some other case
# [16:23] <smaug____> IIRC
# [16:23] <annevk> the after modification suffers badly from the same problem as the current mutation events, except the problem now becomes that of library authors rather than UA implementors
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# [16:24] <smaug____> anyway, it should be trivial to change the current implementation from "outermost method" to "end of task"
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# [16:24] <smaug____> though, it is not even clear what kind of API people want
# [16:24] <annevk> yeah, your API would work either way
# [16:25] <annevk> yeah, Rafael had that as open issue (6/7 or so?) but never elaborated
# [16:25] <annevk> I will try to push a bit
# [16:26] <smaug____> so far web devs have managed to work with mutation events quite well. "outermost method" doesn't really make it any worse
# [16:28] <smaug____> annevk: also, the proposed <dialog> would cause similar problems as showModalDialog
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# [16:29] <smaug____> hmm, actually, the proposal isn't clear what showModal does
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# [16:59] <annevk> smaug____, btw, Rafael says sicking also thinks end of task is better
# [16:59] <annevk> and apparently Indexed DB has such an "end of task" concept already?
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# [17:00] * jgraham now plans to tell someone that annevk claims that Rafael said that sicking thinks end of task is better
# [17:01] <annevk> just wondering whether smaug____ knows or not
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# [17:02] <jgraham> :)
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# [17:03] * Ms2ger will alert the world that jgraham told someone that... Meh, it's boring already
# [17:07] <zcorpan> it wasn't boring until you ruined it
# [17:08] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, sorry :(
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# [17:09] <smaug____> annevk: I do know that
# [17:09] <smaug____> I disagree with sicking
# [17:09] <annevk> what happened to whatwg.org
# [17:10] <smaug____> ?
# [17:10] <smaug____> works here
# [17:10] <smaug____> er, no
# [17:10] <smaug____> not anymore
# [17:10] <annevk> server disappeared?
# [17:11] <jgraham> Gone for me too :(
# [17:12] <jgraham> The server bus factor of web standards work is way too low
# [17:12] <jgraham> I mean as comforting as it is that Hixie has everything backed up in eleventy bajillion places it doesn't help when his host goes down
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# [17:13] <annevk> AryehGregor, ECMAScript uses "code unit" and "character"
# [17:13] <AryehGregor> Does it?
# [17:14] <AryehGregor> "The String type is the set of all finite ordered sequences of zero or more 16-bit unsigned integer values (“elements”)."
# [17:14] <annevk> oh only in source text
# [17:14] <AryehGregor> It looks like it uses "code unit" to mean something totally different.
# [17:14] <AryehGregor> Oh, it uses it for multiple things.
# [17:14] <AryehGregor> How confusing.
# [17:14] <AryehGregor> Yeah, looks like only for source text.
# [17:14] <annevk> does element also mean escapes?
# [17:14] <annevk> because you don't want that
# [17:15] <annevk> 'Throughout the rest of this document, the phrase “code unit” and the word “character” will be used to refer to a 16-bit unsigned value used to represent a single 16-bit unit of text.'
# [17:15] <annevk> that seems to be what we want
# [17:16] <AryehGregor> So it looks like Steve Faulkner has put up a clone for me: http://dev.w3.org/html5/editing-api/Overview.html
# [17:16] <AryehGregor> That strikes me as actively misrepresenting the copyright status of the document.
# [17:17] <annevk> back online
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# [17:39] <david_carlisle> AryehGregor: Is the original copyright status consistent? It says copyriight google, but released under CC0 which the CC0 page to which you link has the heading "no copyright"
# [17:39] <AryehGregor> david_carlisle, AFAIK (IANAL), the copyright holder is Google, but by licensing it CC0 all actual rights are waived. Where does it say copyright Google, though? I thought I removed that.
# [17:40] <david_carlisle> er I was looking at this which might not be the right thing
# [17:40] <david_carlisle> http://aryeh.name/gitweb.cgi?p=editing;a=blob;f=LICENSE;h=85cb5c8689f2c59cd6b40e87c7b608b303d09294;hb=HEAD
# [17:40] <AryehGregor> Oh, I missed that.
# [17:41] <AryehGregor> david_carlisle, try now: http://aryeh.name/gitweb.cgi?p=editing;a=blob;f=LICENSE;hb=HEAD
# [17:41] <david_carlisle> AryehGregor: I think publishing as a w3c spec has a w3c copyright as a rerequisite 9although I must adnit it's a while since I read those rules:-)
# [17:41] <AryehGregor> david_carlisle, pubrules require that line to be present.
# [17:42] <AryehGregor> But it's not actually submitted anywhere as REC-track just now.
# [17:43] <david_carlisle> AryehGregor: yes but presumably the only point of copying it to w3c woul dbe to put it on rec trac (so if you were to object to a copyright change or anything else, better to get those things sorted earlier rather than later?0
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# [17:43] <AryehGregor> david_carlisle, well, there are now Community Groups at the W3C.
# [17:43] <AryehGregor> I'll see if people are okay with using those.
# [17:43] <AryehGregor> I mean, it'll have to be REC track eventually if we want the patent policy.
# [17:43] <AryehGregor> But doesn't have to be yet.
# [17:44] <david_carlisle> well could stay in your git hosting until then;-)
# [17:44] <AryehGregor> Except people will fork it if I do that.
# [17:44] <AryehGregor> Which is fair enough, since I basically told them to. :)
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# [17:47] <zewt> this is ... odd
# [17:47] <Ms2ger> What? AryehGregor not being openly hostile to the W3C? :)
# [17:48] <zewt> the "quotes" in mark watson's mails show up in a very slightly different color than his text (red vs. black), which I assumed was his mailer being horrible
# [17:48] <zewt> ... but when I view-original-message, there's no HTML part in it at all--is it Gmail somehow doing that? or is "view original" not actually showing the real original data?
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# [17:48] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, well, maybe I am openly hostile, but if people are going to try publishing outdated forks of my spec . . .
# [17:49] <Ms2ger> Can't have that
# [17:49] <zewt> anyone want to tell me what his mails look like in another mailer and let me know the manner in which I'm going crazy? (eg. the last post to the MediaSource thread)
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# [17:51] <Philip`> zewt: They look normal colour to me, in Gmail
# [17:51] <Philip`> Does it still look red if you zoom in so the text is larger?
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# [17:51] <Philip`> (Maybe it's an artifact of subpixel font rendering or something)
# [17:52] <jgraham> Do you mean quotes from the message he is replying to?
# [17:52] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/weird.png
# [17:52] <jgraham> I can't tell which is which
# [17:52] <zewt> i have to squint to even tell the difference, but it's there
# [17:53] <zewt> ... but when I "show original", it's just a regular text/plain message
# [17:54] <Philip`> If you mean quote marks then they look normal, if you mean quotations from earlier messages in a purplish colour then Gmail does that by comparing lines of text to lines in previous messages in that conversation
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# [17:54] <zewt> that's ... horribly disgustingly evil
# [17:54] <zewt> and with a nearly-indistinguishable color? even worse
# [17:54] <Philip`> The colour difference for quoted text looks clearly distinct to me
# [17:55] <zewt> it's very subtle
# [17:55] <jgraham> Well so is randomly interspersing your content amonst the content you are replying to with no plain text distinguishing marks
# [17:55] <Philip`> Surely it's less evil than displaying the message with no indication of what's a quote and what's a reply?
# [17:55] <zewt> well yeah, i was originally sending him a mail to ask him to quote normally when I was confused by that
# [17:55] <jgraham> I thought only a11y people did that
# [17:56] <jgraham> But it seems I was wrong
# [17:57] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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# [17:57] <zewt> Philip`: it encourages people to think that people can read messages that are quoted like that, encouraging people like mark to continue quoting in that horrible way
# [17:58] <Philip`> zewt: It doesn't look like it was posted via Gmail, so I would assume the poster isn't going to be influenced by how Gmail renders it
# [17:58] <Philip`> (until Gmail users complain at him)
# [17:58] <zewt> didn't say he was
# [17:59] <Philip`> (and Gmail's colouring will mean a smaller fraction of Gmail users will complain)
# [17:59] <Philip`> (which seems like a pretty indirect form of encouragement)
# [17:59] <zewt> thus proving my point :)
# [17:59] <Philip`> (and likely oughtweighed by the convenience it provides to Gmail users)
# [17:59] <Philip`> (since some people will format emails stupidly regardless of how much you complain)
# [18:00] <zewt> it's not much use to me; as soon as I try to reply to it the questionable distinction is lost (it doesn't transfer to reply quotes in any way)
# [18:00] <jgraham> It appears to be posted from exchange
# [18:00] <jgraham> Which is mildly surprising
# [18:00] <jgraham> I was expecting lotus notes
# [18:00] <jgraham> But only very mildly
# [18:00] <Ms2ger> zewt, my reply is colored green
# [18:01] <zewt> Ms2ger: heh I hate when people do that--but at least they're distinguishing *somehow*
# [18:01] <AryehGregor> I'd actually prefer to use a W3C Community Group than to host this on my website, on reflection, because hopefully it will push the W3C to be less dysfunctional about its process requirements if it sees that people don't mind working there if we don't have to deal with lots of crazy pointless rules.
# [18:01] <zewt> (provided that the receiver sees HTML mail, that he hasn't disabled colors in HTML mail, and that green is readable on whatever his background happens to be)
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# [18:02] <Philip`> Green is an environmentally friendly colour, so I always give emails a solid green background before printing them
# [18:02] <timeless> heh
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# [18:14] <AryehGregor> Okay, I need four people with W3C accounts to support my new Community Group so it can be approved: http://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> Get to it!
# [18:14] <annevk> oh Firefox 6 is out
# [18:14] * AryehGregor waits to see how many minutes it will take
# [18:15] <annevk> does not work in Opera?
# [18:15] <zewt> only difference i've seen in ff6 is ... randomly shuffled menu items breaking a bunch of my menu habits
# [18:15] <AryehGregor> What doesn't, the W3C page?
# [18:15] <AryehGregor> That's amusing.
# [18:15] <zewt> (havn't checked into what API updates they've made yet)
# [18:16] <jgraham> Nope, teh page is broken in Opera
# [18:16] <annevk> AryehGregor, yeah, the big button does not appear
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> lulz.
# [18:16] <jgraham> Gotta love that
# [18:17] <jgraham> AryehGregor: In firefox the links in the description seem to be missing
# [18:17] <zcorpan> w3c hates opera!
# [18:18] * zcorpan goes to bbq
# [18:18] <Ms2ger> Two more
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# [18:19] <annevk> I cheated by using a different browser
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# [18:22] <zewt> wow, ff6 seems much much slower at incrementally decoding big (print resolution) images
# [18:23] <Hixie> the server going down earlier was because of the pdf generation
# [18:23] <Hixie> happens every day these days because the pdf generation is taking too many resources
# [18:23] <smaug____> zewt: really? Please file a bug
# [18:23] <Hixie> i need to disable it really
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# [18:23] <smaug____> zewt: also, do you have a testcase?
# [18:24] <zewt> need to reinstall ff5 to re-test first
# [18:24] <annevk> Hixie, that would be better than the server going offline
# [18:24] <jgraham> Oh, look at that, the problem is an HTML parsing issue
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# [18:24] <annevk> Hixie, maybe email whatwg@whatwg.org to ask if anyone wants to volunteer
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# [18:24] <Philip`> Hixie: You should make the spec smaller
# [18:24] <jgraham> Also, who the hell uses wordpress to design a site like this
# [18:24] <Hixie> Philip`: :-P
# [18:24] <Hixie> annevk: yeah
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# [18:25] <AryehGregor> jgraham, cool.
# [18:25] <Philip`> jgraham: What's wrong with Wordpress for a site like that?
# [18:25] <Ms2ger> ö
# [18:25] <Ms2ger> That page uses header
# [18:26] <annevk> Ms2ger, only TR/ is outdated
# [18:26] <jgraham> Philip`: It seems entirely unlike a blog
# [18:26] <jgraham> Also, did you look at the source?
# [18:26] <Philip`> "The group\'s deliverables" yay escaping
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> We need two more people with a W3C account to signal support here: http://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/
# [18:26] * AryehGregor prods
# [18:26] <Philip`> "It will start work with the preliminary specification hosted at <http://aryeh.name/spec/editing/editing.html>" yay escaping again
# [18:26] <Ms2ger> Hixie, ^
# [18:27] <AryehGregor> WTF.
# [18:28] <Philip`> Try XSSing it to get people to automatically approve your group as soon as they open the page
# [18:28] <jgraham> <header class="group tMargin header_article"><a href="#" class="h3"><img src="/community/src/img/icon-minus.png" class="icon_plus_minus" width="14" height="14" alt="icon-minus" />HTML Editing APIs</a></header>
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# [18:28] <jgraham> Yes, it uses <header>
# [18:28] <jgraham> No, it doesn't really get the point of <header>
# [18:28] <smaug____> AryehGregor: so what does Community Group mean in practice?
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# [18:29] <AryehGregor> smaug____, AFAICT, the W3C provides some infrastructure but no Process requirements, and it doesn't produce "official" specs like RECs or anything.
# [18:29] <AryehGregor> smaug____, http://www.w3.org/community/about/faq/
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# [18:30] <smaug____> AryehGregor: and why should editing APIs be there and not in WebApps ?
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# [18:30] <smaug____> (Sorry, I haven't followed all the politics )
# [18:31] <AryehGregor> smaug____, because that way I don't have to deal with the Process, which is nice, because I'm not a masochist. Eventually it will have to be in WebApps for the Patent Policy.
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# [18:31] <smaug____> ok
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# [18:34] <smaug____> AryehGregor: now you need only one more to click "support"
# [18:34] <zewt> reminds me of petitions, heh
# [18:35] <Ms2ger> zewt, please sign my petition! Or do you *want* to kill puppies?
# [18:35] <zewt> absolutely
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# [18:35] <smaug____> "Oil, Gas and Chemicals Business Group " o_O
# [18:36] <zewt> "i got thousands of people to sign a piece of paper! i think one or two of them actually read it"
# [18:36] <Ms2ger> smaug____, surprised me as well
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# [18:39] <smaug____> AryehGregor: I hope you'll use webapps or whatwg mailing lists for editing stuff
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# [18:43] <jgraham> Why pass up the oppertunity to start a new mailing list?
# [18:43] <jgraham> Everyone knows that N+1 lists are strictly better than N, always
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# [18:44] <zewt> shh we'll end up in an infinite loop
# [18:44] <Ms2ger> N+2*
# [18:44] <AryehGregor> smaug____, I intend to, yeah.
# [18:45] <AryehGregor> Likewise for wikis etc.
# [18:45] <Ms2ger> Uh
# [18:45] <Ms2ger> N+4*
# [18:45] <Ms2ger> "Each group has four mailing lists by default, two public and two non-public."
# [18:45] <AryehGregor> . . .
# [18:46] <jgraham> See. The only way that could be improved is if they gave you 5 lists by default
# [18:47] <Ms2ger> And CGs must use the public lists for technical stuff, Business Groups don't
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# [18:50] <annevk> from what I heard you can contact ij and get alternative setups
# [18:50] <annevk> e.g. use an existing mailing list or repository
# [18:51] <annevk> or bug tracker etc.
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# [18:51] <annevk> at the moment however that requires manual setup
# [18:54] <AryehGregor> We still need one more supporter.
# [18:56] <nimbu> foolip: Is this true "And: Unfortunately Opera still lack a very important feature in their HTML5 video spec implementation, which is the Buffer API." ?
# [18:56] <Ms2ger> nimbu, surely you have a W3C account
# [18:57] <nimbu> Ms2ger: I do >_>
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# [18:57] <Ms2ger> Want to click a button on http://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/?
# [18:58] <timeless> AryehGregor: what is `as (1) te contenteditable ` ?
# [18:58] <AryehGregor> timeless, a typo, possibly my fault and possibly not.
# [18:58] <AryehGregor> (they reformatted it)
# [18:59] <timeless> AryehGregor: if you fix it, you can have my vote:)
# [18:59] <nimbu> what button Ms2ger
# [19:00] <Ms2ger> The one you get to see after you click "HTML Editing APIs", if timeless doesn't beat you to it
# [19:00] <annevk> Ms2ger, sounds like you need to find an XSS exploit lol
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# [19:00] <AryehGregor> timeless, Ian fixed it.
# [19:00] <Ms2ger> Heh
# [19:00] <AryehGregor> Ian Jacobs, that is.
# [19:00] <timeless> > This group is no longer proposed, it has been
# [19:00] <timeless> it has been what?
# [19:00] <annevk> "oh come on, just log in and click the button, you'll get a cookie"
# [19:01] <timeless> and i can't click the report a bug link
# [19:01] <timeless> because the error page doesn't have it!
# [19:01] <timeless> <h3> Errors </h3> <ul> <li>This group is no longer proposed, it has been </li> </ul>
# [19:01] <annevk> it's a group
# [19:01] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/community/editing/
# [19:01] <timeless> it has been... what?
# [19:01] <Ms2ger> mailto:team-community-process@w3.org?Subject=Problem reported for editing
# [19:02] <Philip`> It's a has been
# [19:03] <timeless> oh cute
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# [19:03] <timeless> the group was on the list of /proposed/ with the error for when i tried to vote for it
# [19:04] <timeless> but when i tried to vote for it *again*, the error appeared and the group did not reappear
# [19:04] * timeless goes to hunt lunch
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# [19:04] <Ms2ger> Heh
# [19:05] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, joined your own IRC channel already? :)
# [19:05] <AryehGregor> We don't want our own IRC channel.
# [19:07] <AryehGregor> I'm sad that the functional methods like .filter and such return arrays instead of iterators.
# [19:07] <AryehGregor> It makes things gratuitously inefficient when you chain them, like .filter(...).every(...).
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# [19:09] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Well, there aren't iterators in ES, so that's be hard.
# [19:09] <AryehGregor> That's a potential issue, I grant.
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# [19:09] <AryehGregor> There should be, they're totally awesome.
# [19:09] <AryehGregor> One of my favorite things in Python.
# [19:09] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Could still have lazily evaluated arrays, though.
# [19:09] <gsnedders> So use thunks for filters and the like applied to an array
# [19:10] <gsnedders> Somewhat evil, but would be a perf gain when stuff is chained
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# [20:19] <timeless> anyone here familiar w/ <video> ?
# [20:20] <timeless> assuming someone had a <source> which was magical, i presume there's a way for a JS associated to a <video> to discover that the <video> has reached the end of the [stream]
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# [20:21] <timeless> is there also a way to discover if the <video> is dropping frames?
# [20:22] <timeless> it looks like there's onstalled
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# [20:22] <timeless> and onwaiting
# [20:22] <timeless> and onemptied
# [20:22] * timeless sighs
# [20:22] <timeless> too many events
# [20:27] <timeless> ok, so onstalled generally covers one half of the problem
# [20:28] <timeless> > This specification doesn't define how the user agent achieves the appropriate playback rate
# [20:29] <timeless> so, there isn't actually a way to find out if the player is dropping frames
# [20:29] <timeless> hrm, this consumer has a requirement to know roughly that
# [20:29] <timeless> (not precisely that, but roughly that)
# [20:29] <timeless> (The consumer is trying to [in JS] automatically select the right content bitrate [instead of letting the browser negotiate for it])
# [20:30] <jamesr> mozilla had a vendor-prefixed way to collect more stats
# [20:30] <jamesr> like frames decoded, frames presented, etc
# [20:30] <timeless> yeah
# [20:30] <timeless> i'll mention that
# [20:30] <timeless> i'm not sure i really want to encourage this
# [20:30] <timeless> i'll pastebin my proposal at some point and ask for feedback before i send it out
# [20:31] <timeless> [mozBug 580531]
# [20:31] <timeless> .mozDroppedFrames
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# [21:46] <zcorpan> annevk: "DOM4" is not a great name from a google search result standpoint either
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# [21:47] <zcorpan> (unless SafeSearch is on strict)
# [21:49] <nimbu> ROFLZ
# [21:50] * zcorpan is pleased to see several instances of DOM cleanup in firefox 6 release notes
# [21:51] <Ms2ger> Try guessing how many of these were mine :)
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# [21:52] <zcorpan> all of them?
# [21:52] <micheil> hey, in the WebSockets specification / draft, where is the MessageEvent type defined?
# [21:52] <zcorpan> micheil: it's defined in the html spec
# [21:52] <micheil> okay...
# [21:53] <micheil> is this the comms spec?
# [21:53] <Ms2ger> whatwg.org/C/#messageevent
# [21:53] <micheil> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080610/comms.html
# [21:53] <zcorpan> what Ms2ger said
# [21:53] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#event-definitions-1
# [21:53] <Ms2ger> You certainly don't want to be looking at a 3 years old spec
# [21:53] <Hixie> TR/ page strikes again
# [21:53] <Hixie> good lord
# [21:54] <micheil> okay
# [21:54] <micheil> well, I'm just basing some new work so it's a familiar API to those using websockets in the browser
# [21:54] <micheil> hence the reason I ask about MessageEvent, which is what the WebSocket object uses on message
# [21:55] <zcorpan> micheil: read the whatwg.org/C version, it contains websockets and messageevent and has working xrefs
# [21:55] <zcorpan> and it's up-to-date
# [21:55] <micheil> is there any plan to extend MessageEvent to include a data type?
# [21:55] <Hixie> data type?
# [21:56] <micheil> yeah
# [21:56] <micheil> so you don't need to do a typeof check
# [21:57] <Hixie> ...what's wrong with typeof?
# [21:57] <Ms2ger> Well, it's annoying from C++
# [21:57] <micheil> it's not exactly the best thing
# [21:57] <Ms2ger> Why?
# [21:58] <Hixie> i agree that it's not the best thing
# [21:58] <Hixie> the best thing, is, like, a cat riding a model train or something
# [21:58] <Hixie> but i don't see how that would help here
# [21:58] <micheil> because, this project is a node.js project, so I wouldn't be using "blob", but rather "buffer"
# [21:59] <micheil> I mean, we already know the type, no need to hide it from view
# [21:59] <micheil> or obscure it
# [21:59] <Ms2ger> Hixie, pics or it didn't happen ;)
# [21:59] <Hixie> if you already have a library around this, just make it expose the type however you want it to expose it
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# [21:59] <micheil> okay
# [22:00] <micheil> I like to stay close to standards if possible.
# [22:00] <micheil> but that's cool, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
# [22:00] <Hixie> you can also still use typeof with whatever type you're actually using
# [22:00] <Hixie> if it's been wrapped
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# [22:01] <Ms2ger> Microsoft about IndexedDB: "... so we can start getting some adoption on this technology."
# [22:01] * jgraham doesn't even see safesearch on google anymore (and just gets DOM4 when searching for DOM4)
# [22:01] <jgraham> Also, instant breaks inline search
# [22:01] <Ms2ger> I got shepazu's DOM4
# [22:01] <timeless> inline?
# [22:02] <shepazu> hmmm?
# [22:02] <jgraham> the type you get pressing /
# [22:02] <shepazu> I don't remember uploading my draft of DOM4...
# [22:02] <shepazu> but maybe I did
# [22:03] * Parts: micheil (~micheil@109.231.193.164)
# [22:03] <Ms2ger> You didn't hear Google now searches your local disk as well? :)
# [22:03] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Oh, so did I. Having meaningless years in the URL is helpful in to noticing that there is anything wrong
# [22:03] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM4Core/DOM4Core.html
# [22:03] <timeless> jgraham: FAYT :)
# [22:04] * jgraham just rejects anything contating /TR/ and tries not to think too hard about the numbers
# [22:04] <shepazu> Ms2ger: oh, that was a very early rough draft
# [22:04] <timeless> shepazu: the best kind!
# [22:04] <AryehGregor> Could we start a wiki page documenting cases where people were confused by /TR/?
# [22:04] <Ms2ger> Won't argue with that ;)
# [22:04] * jgraham wonders what safesearch has o do with it
# [22:04] <AryehGregor> As evidence, you know.
# [22:05] <zcorpan> wait, i was editor for that?
# [22:05] <jgraham> Does that block unfinished DOM drafts?
# [22:05] * zcorpan didn't know
# [22:05] <jgraham> Maybe it blocks all non-TR content!
# [22:05] <jgraham> Google protecting us from material of questionable stability
# [22:05] <Ms2ger> I was going to share DOM Core, but Google doesn't like my name
# [22:06] <shepazu> zcorpan: you and I talked about you editing "Web DOM" at W3C, which is why (I think) I started that draft
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# [22:06] <Ms2ger> Or "+1" it, what the cool kids do these days
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# [22:06] <zcorpan> shepazu: ah
# [22:06] <shepazu> no, Ms2ger, +1 is evil!
# [22:06] <timeless> Ms2ger: google killed my name
# [22:06] <Ms2ger> I heard
# [22:07] <shepazu> zcorpan: but we never closed the loop on it, and now others have picked it up, which I'm happy with
# [22:07] <Ms2ger> shepazu, less work for you! ;)
# [22:07] <zcorpan> so am i
# [22:07] <shepazu> Ms2ger: precisely
# [22:08] <shepazu> and now it looks like the DOM extensions I proposed for SVG may make it in as well, with convenience methods like .create() with property bags
# [22:08] <shepazu> so, I'm happy
# [22:08] <zcorpan> wonder why my email didn't make it to help@ archives. maybe i sent from the wrong address
# [22:09] <shepazu> AryehGregor: nice work on the editing spec… I've only skimmed it, but I like what I see
# [22:09] <AryehGregor> shepazu, thanks.
# [22:09] <smaug____> timeless: Google did what to your name?
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# [22:10] <timeless> smaug____: they didn't believe that `timeless developer` satisfied their `real name` policy
# [22:10] <shepazu> AryehGregor: for v2, it would be interesting to consider adding an SVG/graphics editing API into that
# [22:10] <timeless> i claim that `timeless` should satisfy their `common name` requirement
# [22:10] <smaug____> um
# [22:10] <timeless> given that i've used it in real life for more than half my life
# [22:10] <timeless> (and certainly my entire professional life)
# [22:10] <timeless> unfortunately the stupid system insisted that i provide 2 names (first, last), so i had to pick a second part
# [22:10] <AryehGregor> shepazu, that sounds like a different project, really. Graphics editing is a whole separate thing from rich text editing. Obviously it would be a useful addition to the web, of course.
# [22:10] <timeless> i had business cards with `timeless developer`
# [22:11] <AryehGregor> timeless, send them scans of the business cards and other documentation?
# [22:11] <shepazu> a few months ago, I couldn't recall timeless' "real" name and had to ask him :) I know him almost exclusively as timeless
# [22:11] <smaug____> timeless: or just give up with G+ ;)
# [22:11] <timeless> shepazu: the majority of mozilla people do too
# [22:11] <timeless> (know me almost exclusively as)
# [22:11] <shepazu> you gotta admit, though, timeless… it's a little uppity for a name :)
# [22:12] * timeless shrugs
# [22:12] <timeless> i've used it since around '94 or '95 ...
# [22:12] * shepazu contemplates changing nick to "teh_awesome" :P
# [22:12] <jgraham> Not more so than chastity
# [22:12] <jgraham> Or something
# [22:12] <jgraham> Well maybe that is the opposite
# [22:13] <jgraham> But still a pretty silly "real" name
# [22:13] <annevk> zcorpan, that's because we aren't using it yet
# [22:13] <annevk> zcorpan, DOM4 that is
# [22:13] <Ms2ger> shepazu, do you have a real name?
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# [22:14] <smaug____> time to close some tabs. 400+ is getting hard to manage
# [22:14] <timeless> heh
# [22:14] <timeless> panorama isn't helping?
# [22:14] <shepazu> Ms2ger: I have the name my parents gave me, though I don't really care for it
# [22:15] <timeless> AryehGregor: i didn't seee any useful place to do anything about it
# [22:15] <AryehGregor> timeless, unsurprising. Google doesn't seem to like dealing with user feedback.
# [22:15] <smaug____> well, 400 is enough that panorama just puts them over each others
# [22:15] <AryehGregor> (in general)
# [22:15] <timeless> AryehGregor: anyway
# [22:15] <timeless> yeah well
# [22:15] <timeless> they aren't alone
# [22:15] <shepazu> AryehGregor: yeah, I could see that being a separate API, though there will be overlap in the text editing
# [22:15] <timeless> i've had pretty bad luck dealing w/ various groups
# [22:15] <timeless> which reminds me
# [22:15] <AryehGregor> Why don't you legally change your name?
# [22:15] <timeless> ... time to call Chase again and yell at them... again
# [22:15] <timeless> heh
# [22:16] <timeless> that'd probably mess up my immigration status here
# [22:16] <zewt> panorama seems pretty useless
# [22:16] <zewt> thumbnails of webpages aren't helpful at all
# [22:16] <timeless> i can't even leave ontario for more than 30 days between when i arrived and some day in december
# [22:17] <smaug____> panorama works quite well if you have something like <50 tabs per group
# [22:17] <timeless> zewt: i basically have 7 windows
# [22:17] * shepazu always liked names like "Capability Brown" and the Puritan "virtue names" like Temperance, Lamentation, Redeemed, Be-faithful, The-peace-of-God, etc.
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# [22:18] <timeless> one of those windows has 4 groups
# [22:18] <timeless> `current work`, `<employer>`, `accessibility`, `w3 todo`
# [22:19] <timeless> one of those groups is empty, two have 2 items, todo has 7
# [22:20] <annevk> 400 tabs? wow
# [22:20] <annevk> and my friends think I'm crazy with about thirty
# [22:20] <timeless> another window has 5 tabs (in a single group)
# [22:20] <zewt> i don't find it useful, i don't know what use thumbnails of windows filled with text is supposed to be
# [22:20] * shepazu once had almost 1000
# [22:20] <timeless> in my case, i don't need the thumbnails
# [22:20] <timeless> i need the document titles
# [22:20] <zcorpan> annevk: 400 is nothing for bratell
# [22:20] <timeless> `the web platform: bro...` `world wide web cons...` `widget packaging and...`
# [22:21] <zewt> i wish the address bar completion was faster, which would make searching for tabs by title more useful
# [22:21] <timeless> `w3c news archive: 20...` `the network informati...` `deviceorientation eve...`
# [22:21] <zewt> but even with the completion delay set to 0 there's an ugly delay between typing and completion
# [22:21] <annevk> zcorpan, damn it, and he already was the better man
# [22:21] <timeless> i only have one duplicate in that set of 7
# [22:21] <zewt> generally i just remember where tabs are in each window, in practice
# [22:21] <annevk> I tried joining the Editing group btw
# [22:21] <annevk> seems that request is now redirected to Charles
# [22:21] <timeless> amusingly, the duplicate is in fact a duplicate (two views of the w3 home page!)
# [22:22] <timeless> annevk: requires AC Rep approval?
# [22:22] <annevk> yes because of patent commitments
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# [22:22] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish_
# [22:22] <timeless> joy
# [22:22] <annevk> it's kind of interesting that you can vouch for a group without AC approval but joining it requires AC approval
# [22:22] <annevk> it makes sense that joining it requires that though
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# [22:22] <timeless> yeah, that seems slightly flawed
# [22:22] <annevk> given the patent policy
# [22:23] <timeless> yeah, that part seems right
# [22:23] <annevk> which until you get to REC is a lot better than what every other WD has
# [22:23] <timeless> zewt: anyway, in my case, the previews of the w3 todo items are actually pretty good / usable
# [22:23] <annevk> so hopefully the W3C will move normal groups to that as well
# [22:23] <timeless> annevk: wait
# [22:23] <timeless> CGs require patent grants on current work?
# [22:24] <timeless> as opposed to WGs which only apply the grants to REC achieved work?
# [22:24] <AryehGregor> Only for your actual contributions.
# [22:24] <AryehGregor> IIUC.
# [22:24] <annevk> timeless, yes
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# [22:27] <shepazu> timeless: only for those contributions that go on to Rec track, I think… but you make the commitment up front, as opposed to waiting until Rec (IIRC)
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# [22:43] <annevk> guess I should read up again on what patent policy protection you get
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# [22:48] <paul_irish_> who is a good contact at MSFT for webforms ?
# [22:49] <timeless> annevk / shepazu : is it unreasonable for me to expect that protection to be clearly linked from the /pending/ page ?
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# [22:50] <shepazu> timeless: not sure what you mean...
# [22:51] <timeless> shepazu: well, there's clearly a patent policy which affects CGs
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# [22:51] <annevk> paul_irish_, maybe Adrian?
# [22:51] <shepazu> timeless: yes… it's linked from the FAQ
# [22:51] <paul_irish_> thanks annevk
# [22:51] <annevk> paul_irish_, actually, maybe Eliot Graff
# [22:52] <annevk> I think he's on the HTML WG at least
# [22:52] <timeless> shepazu: is it linked from http://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/ ?
# [22:52] <shepazu> timeless: doesn't look like it
# [22:52] <timeless> what about from http://www.w3.org/community/groups/ ?
# [22:53] <timeless> sorry, since i haven't seen/found the page, i'm listing the pages where i'd have needed to see that link
# [22:53] <timeless> i think there are only 3
# [22:53] <timeless> those two plus the actual groups themselves
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# [22:53] <shepazu> it's at least on the "About" tab, and every time you say "Join"
# [22:54] <timeless> http://www.w3.org/community/editing/ has a link to W3C Community Contributor License Agreement (CLA). -- http://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/
# [22:54] <timeless> which isn't a terrible place for it
# [22:54] <timeless> but i claim it's one page too late on average
# [22:55] <timeless> if it could be added to those two other pages, i think that'd be beneficial to some people
# [22:55] <shepazu> timeless: file a bug
# [22:55] <timeless> "how" :)
# [22:55] * timeless is actually in the middle of filing an internal bug (and has already filed one w3 bug today about CG)
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# [22:56] <annevk> why did I start a conversation on public-html-xml again while hsivonen is away
# [22:57] <annevk> now I need to actually follow up myself :(
# [22:57] <timeless> heh
# [22:57] <timeless> yeah, definitely a bad idea
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# [23:03] <zcorpan> nobody implements css3 marquee right?
# [23:03] <shepazu> timeless: Ian has updated the FAQ about how to report bugs… also see http://www.w3.org/community/about/tool/
# [23:04] <annevk> zcorpan, don't think so
# [23:04] <annevk> zcorpan, was there -wap-marquee or some such as well?
# [23:04] <annevk> zcorpan, we might have that
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# [23:12] <annevk> david_carlisle, if you can rewrite the HTML parsing algorithm into something schema / functional; I'd be impressed
# [23:12] <annevk> david_carlisle, I don't think it has much to do with politics
# [23:13] <annevk> david_carlisle, the basic algorithm is already nigh-on impossible I believe, and then document.write() comes on top of that
# [23:14] <david_carlisle> annevk: if I rules the world (which is false for political reasons) i'd do away with document.write and any other inconveniences
# [23:15] <annevk> an interesting way to defend your argument
# [23:15] <david_carlisle> annevk: maybe my argument wasn't so clear (for others on irc, this has leaked from public-html-xml_
# [23:15] <timeless> david_carlisle =~ s/rules/ruled/
# [23:15] <annevk> but I'm not sure it holds, you didn't really say it involved making changes
# [23:16] <gsnedders> david_carlisle: And then leave document.write etc. undefined?
# [23:16] <david_carlisle> timeless: you clearly don't follow xslt-list (otherwise you'd give up correcting my typos0
# [23:17] <timeless> s/0/)/ -- and yes, clearly
# [23:17] <timeless> as a matter of fact, i don't have any love for xslt :)
# [23:17] <annevk> you might be one of the few WHATWG regulars that follows xslt-list :)
# [23:17] <david_carlisle> annevk: I account for around a third of the traffic on that list last time I looked
# [23:18] <timeless> but note that i didn't correct rules to ruled as a typo, but as a grammar-o
# [23:19] <timeless> on irc i'm less likely to correct typos
# [23:19] <timeless> i am impressed that you can mistype ) as both 0 and _ fwiw :)
# [23:20] <david_carlisle> timeless: my usual metric is to try to be within one key with the right hand and two with the left,
# [23:21] * Philip` wrote (some of) an HTML5 parser is OCaml, and wonders if that counts as "functional" :-)
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# [23:22] <timeless> does anyone use it?
# [23:22] <timeless> if not, i'd call it non-functional :)
# [23:22] <david_carlisle> annevk: but I didn't say that i could make html parsing schema driven, just that it would have been nicer to do that in some other legacy free world, which is more or less what you said in your reply to John, that leniemt xml parsing can be simpler because ther eis less legacy
# [23:23] <Philip`> timeless: I used it to generate interesting tokeniser test cases that are now part of the html5lib test suite, so it's very indirectly still used :-)
# [23:24] <timeless> i don't count that :)
# [23:24] <timeless> s/do/would/
# [23:25] <annevk> My name is mentioned in http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/ but I forgot what I contributed :(
# [23:25] <timeless> heh
# [23:25] <annevk> Congratulations nonetheless, shepazu & posse
# [23:25] <heycam> oh right, I forgot that was being published today
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# [23:26] <annevk> heycam, it's on TR/ man, old news :p
# [23:26] <heycam> heh
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# [23:26] <timeless> ooh, i'm in http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PR-ElementTraversal-20081117/
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# [23:26] <heycam> TR/ has one thing going for it -- it's 5 billion times faster than dev.w3.org
# [23:26] <shepazu> annevk: thanks
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# [23:27] <timeless> heycam: heh
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# Session Close: Wed Aug 17 00:00:00 2011

The end :)