/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-08-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 19 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <zcorpan> hmm yeah i think the comment form uses script
  4. # [00:02] <shepazu> scripts are allowed… brb
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  8. # [00:08] * TabAtkins_ wouldn't want to use <section>/<h1> for CSS specs. Being able to write straight-line code is useful.
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  14. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> I always find this report depressing: http://www.redhat.com/f/pdf/security/RHEL4_RiskReport_6yr_wp_5732067_0311_ma_web.pdf
  15. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> Critical flaws in Mozilla products: 194. Critical flaws in all other programs combined: 58.
  16. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> Granted, web browsers are extremely complicated, change rapidly, and are network-exposed, but still . . .
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  18. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> Hmm, are there any useful points here? http://www.infoworld.com/print/169665
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  20. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Point 11 is surprisingly clueful.
  21. # [00:20] <Philip`> Maybe nobody bothers testing other applications much?
  22. # [00:21] * Philip` has always wondered how vulnerable multiplayer games are to malicious network packets, since game developers aren't particularly known for focusing on security and clean coding practices
  23. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> You don't have nearly as many targets for multiplayer games, though.
  24. # [00:22] <jamesr> AryehGregor: that's basically punishing mozilla for disclosing accurately
  25. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> jamesr, this is RHEL, everything here is open-source. I don't think many of the major projects are hiding too many of their security fices.
  26. # [00:23] <jamesr> no?
  27. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Well, not everything, but almost everything.
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  29. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Maybe to some extent, yeah. Like the kernel doesn't give details on vulnerabilities, it's true.
  30. # [00:23] <jamesr> you don't think they fold multiple bugs into a single report, or downgrade some vulns?
  31. # [00:23] <jamesr> i agree that in OSS the problem is not nearly as bad as with closed source
  32. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> AFAIU, the severity and so on are determined by RHEL here, not the vendor.
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  34. # [00:24] <jamesr> but mozilla has a pretty responsible security disclosure policy so they look bad here relative to projects that don't spend as much time+effort
  35. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Also, come to think of it, its userbase is mostly Windows desktop, which gives it about two orders of magnitude usage over almost anything else in the default RHEL install.
  36. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> So you'd expect commensurably more testing.
  37. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Okay, that's all fair. But I wonder how much of these critical vulnerabilities could be effectively mitigated by Chrome-style sandboxing.
  38. # [00:26] <jamesr> yeah, a lot would become high severity
  39. # [00:26] <jamesr> or at least it would using our terminology, not sure what RHEL's vocabulary is
  40. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> I mean, it's fair to say that there's more effort on finding browser bugs, but hopefully there's also more effort in fixing them. :)
  41. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> So one would hope it could cancel out.
  42. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  43. # [00:27] <yuhong> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Flcamtuf.blogspot.com%2F2010%2F05%2Fvulnerability-databases-and-pie-charts.html&ei=lpBNTo6fO8rTiAKJ7dGCAQ&usg=AFQjCNHwG2qJiz9ugZwdxihAWJu-UV-iUg&sig2=WmNI4ObFu-E7I-bp0Pei8A
  44. # [00:27] <yuhong> http://lcamtuf.blogspot.com/2010/05/vulnerability-databases-and-pie-charts.html
  45. # [00:27] <jamesr> definitely worthwhile to spend a lot of effort on a binary that people feed a lot of untrusted content from the web into on a daily basis
  46. # [00:27] <jamesr> and that tends to manage credentials for their email, banking, etc
  47. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> Yep.
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  93. # [03:54] <roc> hmm
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  95. # [03:54] <roc> should we have implemented caretPositionFromPoint with a moz prefix?
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  106. # [04:12] <TabAtkins> roc: Probably, yeah.
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  118. # [04:50] <Hixie> roc: depends if the spec author is tracking implementations and guaranteeing to not break them, or if the spec author is doing his own thing and hoping for the best
  119. # [04:51] <Hixie> roc: who's the spec author?
  120. # [04:51] <Hixie> (which spec is it?)
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  129. # [05:10] <roc> CSSOM Views
  130. # [05:10] <roc> it only just landed, we can get a moz prefix on it
  131. # [05:11] <roc> although I notice that Chrome already shipped caretRangeFromPoint (the obsolete previous version) without a prefix :-(
  132. # [05:12] <jamesr> i argued with someone about prefixing selectionDirection in webkit
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  134. # [05:12] <jamesr> i think i lost that argument
  135. # [05:12] <jamesr> know when we shipped it?
  136. # [05:13] <roc> no idea
  137. # [05:13] <jamesr> is it in safari?
  138. # [05:13] <roc> no idea
  139. # [05:13] <jamesr> that's how you can tell if it's old or not
  140. # [05:13] <roc> I suppose I should install Safari here
  141. # [05:17] <Hixie> roc: so long as it changes name it doesn't matter if it's missing teh prefix
  142. # [05:18] <roc> I think it matters a little bit if Web devs think it's a standard
  143. # [05:18] <Hixie> cssom is anne, so speak to him
  144. # [05:18] <roc> yeah, I CCed him on the bug
  145. # [05:18] <Hixie> fwiw, for specs i edit, i prefer browsers to not use prefixes, and then to just keep me closely in the loop of any implementation experiences
  146. # [05:18] <roc> hmm
  147. # [05:18] <Hixie> that allows me to freeze the spec much faster and gets widespread implementations quicker
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  149. # [05:18] <Hixie> it also means more care is needed
  150. # [05:19] <Hixie> but that's a fair trade imho
  151. # [05:19] <roc> that's fine I guess as long as you don't freeze prematurely
  152. # [05:19] <roc> it's a delicate dance we have to play here
  153. # [05:20] <roc> Safari 5.1 has caretRangeFromPoint FWIW
  154. # [05:20] <erlehmann> oh you.
  155. # [05:20] <Hixie> roc: indeed
  156. # [05:21] <Hixie> roc: i really don't want to end up doing what css does and have features still vendor prefixed even 5 years after everyone is interoperable modulo prefixes, though
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  158. # [05:22] <roc> that is partly the result of W3C processes I think
  159. # [05:22] <roc> and perhaps slow update cycles
  160. # [05:22] <jamesr> there unprefixing is tied to advancing to CR
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  162. # [05:23] <roc> I'm a conservative sort of person so I tend to fear the damage of premature freezing more than the inconvenience of a year or two of prefixing
  163. # [05:23] <roc> on the grounds that the former is forever
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  172. # [06:49] <zewt> at least prefixing javascript apis is generally less inconvenient than prefixing css, when the prefixed implementations are otherwise compatible
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  212. # [09:23] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: <audio/> is now valid per spec
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  215. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK
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  221. # [09:53] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dom-tree-accessors/document.getElementsByClassName-same.html can't fail (unless it throws) right?
  222. # [09:54] <Ms2ger> Right
  223. # [09:54] <Ms2ger> People didn't want an actual requirement about caching
  224. # [10:00] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dom-tree-accessors/document.title-07.html doesn't check "expected title"
  225. # [10:01] <Ms2ger> It's tested in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/bc93d42ccbe7/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/DOMImplementation-createHTMLDocument.html
  226. # [10:02] <zcorpan> ah
  227. # [10:03] <Ms2ger> (I moved the entire test to DOM Core, and then David Flanagan complained that I was testing HTML)
  228. # [10:04] <zcorpan> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dynamic-markup-insertion/document.open-02.html - is w instanceof Window expected to work? shouldn't it be w instanceof w.Window?
  229. # [10:04] <Ms2ger> Oh, good point
  230. # [10:05] <zcorpan> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dynamic-markup-insertion/document.write-02.html has an // XXX
  231. # [10:06] <Ms2ger> An incorrect XXX at that
  232. # [10:06] <Ms2ger> and -ln-02 as well, I guess
  233. # [10:07] <zcorpan> yah
  234. # [10:07] <Ms2ger> At least I'm consistent :)
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  239. # [10:11] <zcorpan> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dynamic-markup-insertion/innerhtml-03.xhtml shouldn't the span have xmlns?
  240. # [10:12] <Ms2ger> Looks like it
  241. # [10:13] <zcorpan> also, getting innerHTML in xml isn't defined to return only one possible string
  242. # [10:13] <zcorpan> it'd be conforming to use single quotes etc
  243. # [10:14] <zcorpan> i think that's a bug in the spec, but until the spec is fixed...
  244. # [10:16] <zcorpan> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dynamic-markup-insertion/innerhtml-01.xhtml could be testing all listed cases that should throw
  245. # [10:16] <Ms2ger> It could be, if I had time :)
  246. # [10:18] <zcorpan> ok i'll let somebody else review the rest
  247. # [10:18] <zcorpan> should i email the above to teh list?
  248. # [10:22] * jgraham plans to start the telepathic enhancements for html community group, just so that I can tell people to email teh list
  249. # [10:23] * jgraham is apparently incapable of keeping a whole sentence in the third person
  250. # [10:23] <Ms2ger> I pushed http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/d46205148900
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  260. # [10:54] <zcorpan> i like the "remove" algorithm in domcore
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  262. # [11:00] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: "If node is a doctype and either parent has a doctype child that is not child, or an element is preceding child." seems like the paragraph isn't complete. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-replace
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  267. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, would you like it better with s/If node/If child/?
  268. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> foolip, zcorpan - <audio></audio> validator fix checked in
  269. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> thanks for the heads-up
  270. # [11:33] <foolip> MikeSmith, is it live somewhere?
  271. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> foolip: not yet, but I can make it live at w3.org/html/check if you want
  272. # [11:35] <foolip> that'd be nice
  273. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> OK
  274. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> gimme a couple minutes
  275. # [11:38] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i'd like it better if it ended with "throw exception blah blah"
  276. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> Eh
  277. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> Right
  278. # [11:39] * Ms2ger blames annevk
  279. # [11:39] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: nice
  280. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> Man, how many substeps does this algorithm have?
  281. # [11:44] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, fixed, thanks
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  285. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> foolip: OK, pushed now to http://www.w3.org/html/check
  286. # [11:47] * xCG is now known as CvP
  287. # [11:47] <foolip> MikeSmith, seems to work, thanks!
  288. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> np
  289. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> foolip: btw, when building I'm now getting some messages emitted about schema errors for some microdata stuff
  290. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> e.g., Reference to undefined pattern “common.attrs.microdata.itemid”
  291. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> oh, I think I know why that is
  292. # [11:50] <foolip> MikeSmith, hmm, I didn't add or remove anything with itemid, just tweaked its definition I think
  293. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> yeah, I'm getting the same message for all the aria attributes, so it's not related to specific change
  294. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> I think it's just because of have some stuff in my workspace that I need to update
  295. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'll figure it out
  296. # [12:12] <zcorpan> hmm. XMLHttpRequestUpload can also get events
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  328. # [14:37] <ooga-booga> im all about the hypertext.....
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  368. # [17:38] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  369. # [17:38] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  370. # [17:41] <Hixie> man, you get up way too early
  371. # [17:47] <jgraham> Alternative theory: You are too cheery in the morning
  372. # [17:47] <Hixie> well that makes no sense
  373. # [17:47] <Hixie> how can you be too cheery
  374. # [17:47] <jgraham> Alternative alternative theory: You are actually a sociopath
  375. # [17:47] <Hixie> cheery is good!
  376. # [17:50] <Ms2ger> jgraham, no, that's me
  377. # [17:54] <Philip`> Surely that's jgraham?
  378. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Well no, jgraham is just a doctor
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  382. # [18:08] * dglazkov missed an excellent opportunity to troll. :(
  383. # [18:09] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, very much unlike you
  384. # [18:09] <dglazkov> I know, right!
  385. # [18:10] <dglazkov> ^^^ should probably be "I know, right?!"
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  398. # [18:51] <karlcow> http://stiern.com/articles/usability/usability-in-icons/
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  400. # [18:51] <zewt> icons, the bane of usability
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  404. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> "Suggesting new feature: Accessible Image tag for Visually Impaired"
  405. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Specifically, they're asking for the ability to specify an alternate embossing-friendly image.
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  414. # [19:14] <dglazkov> what's a good definition of the "Web Platform" that I could link to? I see lots of use of the term, but not a good definition we can use.
  415. # [19:14] <nimbu> http://platform.html5.org/ is the best I know but it is not a definition :P
  416. # [19:15] <dglazkov> maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform
  417. # [19:15] <dglazkov> nimbu: that could work
  418. # [19:16] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform
  419. # [19:16] <karlcow> hmmm I should add one to the wiki
  420. # [19:23] <karlcow> be free to improve it
  421. # [19:23] <karlcow> The Open Web Platform is the collection of open (royalty-free) technologies which enables the Web. Using the Open Web Platform, everyone has the right and the ability to implement a software component of the Web without requiring any approvals or waiving license fees. — http://www.w3.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform
  422. # [19:24] <zewt> everyone has the ability?
  423. # [19:24] <zewt> heh
  424. # [19:24] <dglazkov> ability but not capacity
  425. # [19:25] <zewt> ability means capacity
  426. # [19:25] <zewt> not permission, heh
  427. # [19:25] <dglazkov> dur
  428. # [19:25] <dglazkov> word smithing is hard
  429. # [19:25] <Philip`> "legal ability"?
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  431. # [19:25] <Philip`> The legal perspective seems like a pretty boring one to view it from, though
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  433. # [19:26] <karlcow> pardon my French :)
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  435. # [19:27] <zewt> well, it's boring to people who don't care about "open" to begin with :)
  436. # [19:27] <karlcow> maybe cut ability
  437. # [19:28] <karlcow> ability is cut
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  439. # [19:28] <dglazkov> zewt: wow, internet has everything in it: http://www.ehow.com/how_4486601_use-words-capacity-ability-correctly.html
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  441. # [19:31] <zewt> gmail scrolling header hack is eeeevil
  442. # [19:34] <Philip`> There's a lot more stuff that is open but not part of the web platform (like PHP and .NET and MJPEG and PDF and VRML and VML etc), than stuff that is not open but is part of the web platform (Flash, maybe H.264)
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  444. # [19:35] <Philip`> so the "web platform" part seems more important and distinctive than the "open" part
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  446. # [19:35] <zewt> at least nobody's calling it the "free open web platform"
  447. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> gif :)
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  450. # [19:36] <Philip`> Surely that'd have to be the Free Libre Open Web Platform
  451. # [19:36] <Philip`> FLOWP is a nice enough acronym, too
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  453. # [19:40] <Ms2ger> Leave the web out: "FLOP"
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  462. # [20:08] <karlcow> There's a lot more people on the platform but not part of the web platform (like Paul and Dotty and Meg and Peter and Vince and Veronica etc), …
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  507. # [20:54] <dglazkov> how could I use progress element in Mediawiki. AryehGregor, you know everything about that, right?
  508. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> dglazkov, it's not whitelisted. You'd have to hack includes/Sanitizer.php.
  509. # [20:55] <dglazkov> AryehGregor: do I need to first hack into whatwg.org?
  510. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> I guess.
  511. # [20:56] <gsnedders> dglazkov: That shouldn't be that hard, should it?
  512. # [20:56] <dglazkov> gsnedders: :)
  513. # [20:56] <dglazkov> I know a cool hacker who can do this
  514. # [20:56] <dglazkov> Hixie: ^^^^ :)
  515. # [20:59] * AryehGregor could also do it, in theory . . .
  516. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Local hacks are no fun, though.
  517. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> They'll break as soon as you upgrade.
  518. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> In theory I could write and commit a proper patch, but that would take time.
  519. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> As usual, I am Hixie's slave and will do his bidding on this matter.
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  521. # [21:04] <Hixie> wait, what?
  522. # [21:05] <Hixie> what are we talking about
  523. # [21:05] <Ms2ger`> Hixie, MediaWiki hacking
  524. # [21:06] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@207.239.107.3)
  525. # [21:06] <Hixie> AryehGregor: hey mad you do whatever you think is best, i don't know nothing about this wiki thing
  526. # [21:06] <Hixie> er
  527. # [21:06] <Hixie> "hey man"
  528. # [21:07] <smaug____> :)
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  535. # [21:20] <shepazu> I am utterly confused by Powers' stance… I'd think that making HTML more modular, and doing the work in an even more open forum still within W3C and with a good patent policy, would be a clear win… AryehGregor, did you step on her pet gerbil or something?
  536. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> shepazu, most of us find Shelley a little hard to deal with at times.
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  538. # [21:21] <Ms2ger`> shepazu, Utter confusion is pretty much my default feeling when dealing with her
  539. # [21:21] <shepazu> personalities aside, just the particulars of the topic seem sensible prima facie
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  541. # [21:22] <shepazu> oh, well
  542. # [21:23] <shepazu> I suppose I should stop "lecturing" people to correct basic misinformation on Community Groups, and get back to real work
  543. # [21:23] <Ms2ger`> xkcd.com/386
  544. # [21:24] <shepazu> indeed
  545. # [21:24] * Ms2ger` is now known as Ms2ger
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  548. # [21:37] * AryehGregor wonders if WebKit people will get annoyed at all the editing bugs he's updating
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  550. # [21:50] <Hixie> heycam|away: ping - wanted to ask you if there was an easy way to add an event handler attribute to something that is currently defined as a Foo[]
  551. # [21:50] <Hixie> (in webidl, obviously, not in js)
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  558. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, explanation for <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13841>?
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  581. # [22:58] <zewt> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JulSep/0942.html heh again
  582. # [22:58] <zewt> should be a faq about that somewhere, it seems to be by a large margin the most common misunderstanding on the platform
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  586. # [23:22] <jgraham> zewt: Are we looking at the same bug?
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  589. # [23:31] <zewt> looks like the same old "someone doesn't know that events aren't dispatched until you return to the event loop", which it seems at least one person a month on the list or tracker doesn't get
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  592. # [23:33] <jgraham> Well I guess. But it is a bit complex and hardly seems like the most common misunderstanding on the platform
  593. # [23:33] <zewt> it's one of the very few that I've seen over and over and over again
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  595. # [23:34] <jgraham> I mean more common misunderstandings are things like "my XHTML doctype is somehow meaningful"
  596. # [23:34] <jgraham> Although maybe that particular one is going away a bit these days
  597. # [23:35] <jgraham> But sure, write a blog post or add it to the WHATWG FAQ or something
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  604. # [23:48] <gsnedders> zewt: I know that… But I don't know when you return to the event loop.
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  609. # Session Close: Sat Aug 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)