/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-06 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 06 10:58:58 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [10:58] * Now talking in #whatwg
  4. # [10:58] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  5. # [10:58] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  6. # [10:59] <krijnh> o/
  7. # [10:59] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  8. # [11:00] <zcorpan> \o/
  9. # [11:01] <krijn> Sorry about that
  10. # [11:01] <nimbu> wrong window krijn
  11. # [11:01] <krijn> ?
  12. # [11:01] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.247.243) (Quit: Leaving.)
  13. # [11:01] <nimbu> "sorry about that"
  14. # [11:02] <annevk> no
  15. # [11:02] <annevk> he fixed the logs
  16. # [11:02] <nimbu> o
  17. # [11:04] <krijn> Yeah, sorry for not fixing it earlier :)
  18. # [11:05] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  19. # [11:05] * krijn blames dConstruct and cremations
  20. # [11:05] * Quits: cygri (~cygri@109.255.150.223) (Quit: cygri)
  21. # [11:08] * Quits: tomasf (~iadmin@81-226-245-176-no46.business.telia.com) (Quit: tomasf)
  22. # [11:10] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  23. # [11:12] <annevk> :(
  24. # [11:13] * Quits: brucel (~brucel@guest.opera.com) (Quit: brucel)
  25. # [11:14] * Joins: foolip (u3586@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yvmkevbjfcugfvpc)
  26. # [11:14] * Quits: cachemoney (~cachemone@71-94-132-42.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  27. # [11:42] * Quits: g4 (~g4@81.27.45.54) (Remote host closed the connection)
  28. # [11:47] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-90-132f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  29. # [12:04] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:817a:73e2:d1b6:acfe) (Remote host closed the connection)
  30. # [12:04] * Quits: richt (~richt@guest.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  31. # [12:04] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@guest.opera.com) (Quit: miketaylr)
  32. # [12:04] * Quits: nimbu (~Adium@guest.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  33. # [12:04] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  34. # [12:05] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com)
  35. # [12:28] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@AMontsouris-157-1-143-254.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  36. # [12:31] * Joins: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.162)
  37. # [12:34] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net)
  38. # [12:38] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  39. # [12:39] * Joins: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  40. # [12:41] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  41. # [12:42] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  42. # [12:49] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  43. # [12:50] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  44. # [12:51] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  45. # [12:54] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@guest.opera.com)
  46. # [12:55] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  47. # [12:56] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
  48. # [13:00] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  49. # [13:10] * Joins: richt (~richt@guest.opera.com)
  50. # [13:11] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  51. # [13:12] * Quits: zewt- (~x@c-24-62-196-44.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  52. # [13:12] * Joins: zewt (~x@c-24-62-196-44.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  53. # [13:14] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (ZombieL@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  54. # [13:16] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@guest.opera.com) (Read error: No route to host)
  55. # [13:16] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@guest.opera.com)
  56. # [13:31] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  57. # [13:34] <hsivonen> wow. itemId reflects an URL like href, etc.? That's novel in the URLs-as-identifiers land.
  58. # [13:35] <annevk> it's solely an identifier?
  59. # [13:35] <annevk> seems like a bad idea then
  60. # [13:38] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  61. # [13:42] * Parts: espadrine (~thaddee_t@AMontsouris-157-1-143-254.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  62. # [13:44] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.92) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  63. # [13:44] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.92)
  64. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> so hey
  65. # [13:47] <annevk> hey MikeSmith!
  66. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> hey man
  67. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to list out some likely candidates for new attributes and elements that may make their way into the HTML spec some time in the near future
  68. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> the main one I can think of is the inputmode-like thing
  69. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Text_input_keyboard_mode_control
  70. # [13:47] <annevk> <x- or <data- for the component model?
  71. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> the other I can think of is the <data>
  72. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> element
  73. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: ah yeah
  74. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> any others come to mind?
  75. # [13:48] <annevk> there was the <input type=range> bug about having two sliders
  76. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> OK
  77. # [13:48] <annevk> so <input type=double-range> maybe?
  78. # [13:48] <annevk> guess that's not really a new attribute
  79. # [13:49] <annevk> oh
  80. # [13:49] <annevk> <dialog>
  81. # [13:49] <annevk> <dialog modal>
  82. # [13:49] <annevk> maybe XBL
  83. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  84. # [13:50] <annevk> XBL - 30% chance
  85. # [13:50] <annevk> <x-> 50%
  86. # [13:50] * annevk tries to think of other arbitrary percentages
  87. # [13:50] <zcorpan> namespaces, 0%
  88. # [13:50] <annevk> we once had that tree thing
  89. # [13:50] <annevk> :)
  90. # [13:50] <annevk> <datatable>?
  91. # [13:51] <hsivonen> annevk: is XBL that much alive still?
  92. # [13:51] <annevk> <datagrid>!
  93. # [13:51] <annevk> hsivonen, if the component model ever gets a declarative side it would be XBL
  94. # [13:52] <annevk> hsivonen, afaict
  95. # [13:52] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  96. # [13:52] <annevk> hsivonen, and it seems some Gecko developers and Hixie still think that's a good idea
  97. # [13:53] <hsivonen> annevk: is any of those Gecko developers actively implementing?
  98. # [13:53] * Quits: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  99. # [13:53] <annevk> no, but is Gecko implementing the component model at this point?
  100. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm wondering what your assessment is on <menuitem>, and what you think the odds are on the ever getting into the spec
  101. # [13:54] <hsivonen> annevk: I wouldn't know
  102. # [13:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oh yeah, that
  103. # [13:54] <annevk> MikeSmith, you're trying to do this HTML.next thing?
  104. # [13:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I thought that one was between the Mozilla guys who wanted it and Hixie
  105. # [13:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I guess I'll need to find out what the situation is
  106. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah it is, essentially as you said
  107. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it's just kind of been hanging for a few weeks now
  108. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> last comment on it from Jonas
  109. # [13:56] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-90-132f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  110. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13608
  111. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, just trying to make a summary assessment of where things are at overall at this point, as far as possible new markup additions
  112. # [13:57] <hsivonen> I want Gecko and the spec to match. and I want us to be careful about minting new void elements. (IIRC there's now a polyfill for <menuitem> floating around, and that sort of thing is actually easier to make when it's non-void)
  113. # [13:57] <hsivonen> I not that interested into bikeshedding the name
  114. # [13:57] <hsivonen> s/into/in/
  115. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> yep
  116. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> agreed on all that, fwiw
  117. # [13:58] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  118. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> but I think the implementation work that Jan did has at the very least exposed some possible problems with the context-menu/command stuff that should be addressed in some way
  119. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> (if not necessarily with a new element)
  120. # [13:59] <hsivonen> I haven't paid careful enough attention to comment
  121. # [14:02] <smaug____> hsivonen: FYI, menuitem won't be void element
  122. # [14:02] <smaug____> hsivonen: since its handling was made more consistent with <option>
  123. # [14:03] <hsivonen> smaug____: on the DOM level that is? hopefully not in parsing
  124. # [14:04] <hsivonen> smaug____: so we can now back out the #ifdefs for making menuitem void?
  125. # [14:05] <smaug____> hsivonen: <menuitem>label</menuitem> should work
  126. # [14:05] <hsivonen> smaug____: ok
  127. # [14:05] <hsivonen> let's get the #ifdefs backed out, then
  128. # [14:11] * Joins: himcesjf (~scq@unaffiliated/himcesjf)
  129. # [14:13] <foolip> hsivonen, annevk: itemid isn't quite like itemtype, something like itemid="#foo" isn't completely unreasonable
  130. # [14:14] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  131. # [14:15] * Joins: miketayl_r (~miketaylr@guest.opera.com)
  132. # [14:15] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@guest.opera.com) (Read error: No route to host)
  133. # [14:15] * Parts: himcesjf (~scq@unaffiliated/himcesjf)
  134. # [14:16] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  135. # [14:17] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au)
  136. # [14:21] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.75)
  137. # [14:22] <hsivonen> foolip: I didn't say unreasonable. just novel in the URIs-are-identifiers land.
  138. # [14:22] * miketayl_r is now known as miketaylr
  139. # [14:22] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.247.243)
  140. # [14:22] * Quits: richt (~richt@guest.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  141. # [14:24] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  142. # [14:27] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  143. # [14:31] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  144. # [14:33] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-52-143.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Client Quit)
  145. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> so to be clear, the <x-foo> custom-element registration piece would require changes to the parsing algorithm, right?
  146. # [14:36] * Joins: richt (~richt@guest.opera.com)
  147. # [14:37] <annevk> maybe
  148. # [14:37] <annevk> depends on the details
  149. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> OK
  150. # [14:42] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14029#c16 is sad
  151. # [14:44] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.247.243) (Remote host closed the connection)
  152. # [14:45] * Joins: cygri (~cygri@109.79.240.127)
  153. # [14:45] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.247.243)
  154. # [14:45] <annevk> "Where I came from, we have rather colorful names for folk that hide behind walls, including walls of pseudonyms."
  155. # [14:45] <annevk> holy shit
  156. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yep
  157. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, that is even worse
  158. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> dude is out of line
  159. # [14:46] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-49-129-67-216.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  160. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> too much time on their hands
  161. # [14:47] <annevk> and again I am amazed by bz remaining calm in the face of idiots
  162. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> the stuff that people choose to burn up time agitating about is boggling
  163. # [14:47] <hsivonen> I wonder if Glenn believes all the spam puppets with real-looking Firstname Lastname names on G+ are real people with passports written for those names
  164. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, bz is model of how to deal with cases like this
  165. # [14:48] <smaug____> hsivonen: actually, how is <option> defined?
  166. # [14:48] <smaug____> it can be void but also container, right?
  167. # [14:48] * Quits: cygri (~cygri@109.79.240.127) (Client Quit)
  168. # [14:48] <hsivonen> smaug____: it can't be void. it's end tag can be omitted
  169. # [14:48] <smaug____> ah, ok
  170. # [14:49] <erlehmann> hsivonen, also there are people with “fake-looking” names, that get kicked out regularly everywhere.
  171. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think he does not, but he doesn't care. The goal is just for the sake of appearances. Or perhaps it's not and they next thing they are going to agitate for is that the W3C start actually verifying the identity of everybody who has a W3C account or who volunteers to write a spec (and actually does it).
  172. # [14:50] <erlehmann> scaring contributors away, yay!
  173. # [14:54] * matjas is now known as mathias
  174. # [14:54] * mathias is now known as matjas
  175. # [14:56] * matijsb is now known as matijs
  176. # [14:56] <hsivonen> (speaking of passports, I occasionally find it curious that there are countries that have the audacity to issue passports--i.e. certify a person's existence--without have a database of all people in the country)
  177. # [14:57] * matijs is now known as matijsb
  178. # [14:57] <hsivonen> (at least *my* existence is backed by a database line)
  179. # [14:57] <hsivonen> s/have/having/
  180. # [14:59] <hsivonen> (though countries that don't have a database of all citizens manage to get by much better than one would expect)
  181. # [14:59] * takkaria is pretty happy about that
  182. # [14:59] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-155-240.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  183. # [14:59] <erlehmann> in before anyone mentions IBM
  184. # [14:59] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-41-65.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  185. # [14:59] <hsivonen> takkaria: about countries managing to do stuff without a proper database?
  186. # [15:01] * Joins: norbert- (~norbert@82-171-70-54.ip.telfort.nl)
  187. # [15:01] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.92) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  188. # [15:01] <erlehmann> i think germany has no central database.
  189. # [15:02] * Parts: norbert- (~norbert@82-171-70-54.ip.telfort.nl)
  190. # [15:02] <erlehmann> but thousands of local ones. so in theory, the information is there.
  191. # [15:02] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.92)
  192. # [15:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-242-119.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  193. # [15:02] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  194. # [15:03] <takkaria> hsivonen: about states not having centralised databases of everyone
  195. # [15:03] <erlehmann> this is funny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_registration#France
  196. # [15:04] <erlehmann> >current residency is often verified by showing bills relating to the current home
  197. # [15:04] <erlehmann> haha
  198. # [15:07] <hsivonen> takkaria: it's kinda weird not to have one in any country that has elections, taxes or social security benefits (or a conscription-based army)
  199. # [15:09] * Quits: CvP (~CvP@123.49.22.162) (Disconnected by services)
  200. # [15:09] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.92) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  201. # [15:09] * Joins: xCG (~CvP@123.49.22.162)
  202. # [15:10] * xCG is now known as CvP
  203. # [15:11] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.92)
  204. # [15:11] <hsivonen> erlehmann: heh. the wikipedia entries for Finland and Sweden have obviously been copied and pasted from each other (as probably the relevant legislation, too).
  205. # [15:12] <hsivonen> subentries on the Resident_registration page, that is
  206. # [15:16] <kennyluck> Does anyone here know how reality-matching the ISO/IEC C standard is? as compared to WHATWG HTML LS.
  207. # [15:21] <Philip`> kennyluck: I think it's reality-matching enough that programmers and compiler developers refer to it to authoritatively determine the correctness of programs and of compilers, mostly successfully (though there's certainly a few cases where it's vague and/or incorrect so you have to rely on common interpretation rather than just the text)
  208. # [15:22] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@guest.opera.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  209. # [15:22] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  210. # [15:22] * Joins: Rik`_ (~Rik`@mpt-vpn.mozilla.com)
  211. # [15:23] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@guest.opera.com)
  212. # [15:23] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com)
  213. # [15:23] * Joins: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  214. # [15:23] <Philip`> kennyluck: It leaves a lot of stuff as implementation-defined (e.g. the number of bits in a byte) even when pretty much every implementation in the world makes the same decision, so (unlike the general direction of HTML) it lets you write conforming compilers that probably won't work on much real-world code
  215. # [15:24] <Philip`> kennyluck: and compilers implement a load of non-standard features too
  216. # [15:24] <kennyluck> Philip`, it sounds like CSS2.1 :p
  217. # [15:25] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@guest.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  218. # [15:25] <kennyluck> Philip`, is there a supplementary document that talks about these *decisions*?
  219. # [15:25] <Philip`> kennyluck: so I suppose it's less of an attempted comprehensive implementation description than HTML is, and more of a almost-but-not-quite-large-enough-to-be-practical subset that programmers and compilers can agree on
  220. # [15:26] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  221. # [15:26] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net)
  222. # [15:27] <Philip`> kennyluck: The decisions like the number of bits per byte? It differs by compiler and by platform, and I don't think anyone's collected all the data together, though in theory the compilers ought to document all their choices for implementation-defined behaviour
  223. # [15:27] * Quits: richt (~richt@guest.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  224. # [15:27] <Philip`> (Undefined behaviour is different and isn't expected to be documented anywhere)
  225. # [15:27] <kennyluck> Philip`, I mean the hidden rules that all implementation agree upon.
  226. # [15:28] <Philip`> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/C-Implementation.html
  227. # [15:28] <kennyluck> Yes, I was talking about undefined behaviors.
  228. # [15:28] * Joins: izhak (1000@188.168.203.49)
  229. # [15:29] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@guest.opera.com)
  230. # [15:29] <Philip`> The standard has an appendix listing "unspecified" and "undefined" and "implementation-defined" cases
  231. # [15:29] * kennyluck just read an article that mentions the fact that the standard makes NULL == 0 implementation-defined, but he wonders if there's real world exception.
  232. # [15:30] * Quits: Rik`_ (~Rik`@mpt-vpn.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  233. # [15:30] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  234. # [15:30] <Philip`> Nobody agrees on handling of undefined behaviour - that's things like "(x++) + (x++)" and even a single compiler with different optimisation settings gives different results
  235. # [15:32] <izhak> Hi. Could you please guys clarify how does most popular engines deal with encoding when parsing html, do they transfer any encoding to a single one to work with it when parsing, or parsing process deals with different encodings?
  236. # [15:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: it seems terrible that undefined stuff compiles instead of causing errors
  237. # [15:37] <Philip`> kennyluck: The standard says 0 is a null pointer constant, and NULL is a null pointer constant, but doesn't say there's only a single null pointer constant or that they're all equal
  238. # [15:38] <Philip`> They'll be equal if converted to pointers, but == will compare them as integers
  239. # [15:38] <Philip`> so I think I agree that expression is implementation-defined
  240. # [15:39] <erlehmann> Philip`, the number of bits in a byte? o.0
  241. # [15:39] <Philip`> but I can't conceive of any non-intentionally-weird implementation where NULL would not equal 0
  242. # [15:39] <erlehmann> does x64 have different bytes?
  243. # [15:39] <erlehmann> or what.
  244. # [15:39] <kennyluck> erlehmann, that one has a known exception.
  245. # [15:40] <erlehmann> kennyluck, i wish for a compiler that translates „undefined behaviour“ to „delete everything“
  246. # [15:41] <kennyluck> erlehmann, here you go http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2435265&postcount=10
  247. # [15:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: In general it's impossible to prove that it's undefined, like in "int f(int* a, int* b) { return (*a)++ + (*b)++; }; int x, y; ... f(&x, &y) /* okay */; f(&x, &x) /* undefined */;"
  248. # [15:42] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@91.224.77.4) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  249. # [15:44] * Quits: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  250. # [15:49] <annevk> oops, almost forgot to define createRange!
  251. # [15:50] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  252. # [15:50] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98)
  253. # [15:52] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-71-204-145-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  254. # [15:53] <Philip`> kennyluck: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2597142/when-was-the-null-macro-not-0/2597232#2597232 has some examples where a null pointer is not 0x0000..., though that doesn't mean NULL will be a non-zero integer
  255. # [15:54] <Philip`> (at least per C99)
  256. # [15:54] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@guest.opera.com) (Read error: No route to host)
  257. # [15:54] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@guest.opera.com)
  258. # [15:54] * nimbupani is now known as nimbu
  259. # [15:55] <kennyluck> interesting
  260. # [15:57] * matjas is now known as divya
  261. # [15:58] * divya is now known as matjas
  262. # [15:58] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@nat-204-14-239-209-sfo.net.salesforce.com)
  263. # [15:58] * nimbu is now known as divya
  264. # [15:58] <Philip`> I suppose a particularly security-conscious implementation could do pointer-to-int conversion by generating an incrementing ID number for each new pointer it encounters
  265. # [15:59] <Philip`> and then do int-to-pointer conversion by looking up the pointer with that ID number, or returning the null pointer if the ID wasn't valid
  266. # [16:00] <Philip`> and then it could #define NULL 0xDEADBEEF so it's easily distinguishable in memory dumps etc, and never allocate that as an ID number so it always returns a null pointer
  267. # [16:01] <Philip`> and I think that would be a conforming C implementation
  268. # [16:02] <zewt> in practice any system where null isn't false would be fatally broken
  269. # [16:03] <Philip`> zewt: The NULL macro, or a null pointer?
  270. # [16:06] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  271. # [16:06] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  272. # [16:06] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  273. # [16:07] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  274. # [16:07] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com)
  275. # [16:10] <annevk> note to self: check if HTML has garbage collection rules for all objects that can do requests
  276. # [16:10] <annevk> e.g. <script>, <img>, <link>
  277. # [16:11] <annevk> and if not, file bugs, I guess
  278. # [16:11] <zewt> Philip`: don't see how they could possibly be different
  279. # [16:12] <zewt> annevk: where is that ever non-transparent?
  280. # [16:13] * Joins: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  281. # [16:13] <Philip`> zewt: NULL can be an integer type, not a pointer type, so different rules apply for conversions and comparisons etc
  282. # [16:14] <zewt> but it still needs to be a false value, whatever its type
  283. # [16:14] <zewt> 0xdeadbeef isn't false
  284. # [16:15] <zewt> so every program that says if(p) instead of if(p != NULL) would break
  285. # [16:15] <annevk> zewt, what?
  286. # [16:16] <zewt> annevk: when are effects of gc rules visible to scripts/users in a way that should be specified?
  287. # [16:16] <zewt> specifying it for workers makes sense, of course, since it's very visible
  288. # [16:17] <annevk> it's specified for XMLHttpRequest, EventSource, WebSocket
  289. # [16:17] <Philip`> zewt: If p is a pointer, "if(p)" will convert the pointer to an integer, which you want to be 0 (which I don't think the standard requires); that doesn't mean NULL has to be the integer 0, it could be a different integer that also happens to become a null pointer when converted to a pointer type, without breaking that code
  290. # [16:18] <annevk> apparently there have been compatibility issues in this area as well
  291. # [16:18] <annevk> it also matters for navigation
  292. # [16:20] <zewt> don't think there's any way NULL could be something other than 0 while having boolean expressions behave normally
  293. # [16:25] * Joins: shetech (~shetech@c-76-126-167-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  294. # [16:25] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  295. # [16:28] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  296. # [16:30] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-590c7f2d.pool.mediaWays.net)
  297. # [16:40] * Joins: rabbi1 (~manjunath@49.200.68.194)
  298. # [16:44] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-76-122-148-63.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
  299. # [16:47] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  300. # [16:55] * Joins: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-whzajxypmquhfpof)
  301. # [17:06] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@guest.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  302. # [17:09] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  303. # [17:11] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
  304. # [17:12] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  305. # [17:13] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@81-178-194-113.dsl.pipex.com)
  306. # [17:14] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  307. # [17:15] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  308. # [17:18] <annevk> why is it important that "concept-range-bp-node" is a separate concept Ms2ger, AryehGregor?
  309. # [17:18] <annevk> seems to be the same as concept-node
  310. # [17:19] <annevk> we should maybe introduce "start node", "start offset", "end node", and "end offset" as concepts
  311. # [17:20] * Quits: izhak (1000@188.168.203.49) (Quit: exit(0);)
  312. # [17:27] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  313. # [17:30] * Joins: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  314. # [17:31] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  315. # [17:34] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  316. # [17:35] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@guest.opera.com) (Quit: annevk)
  317. # [17:37] <zewt> surprising how many people just don't understand the DOM Events model, even people working on specs
  318. # [17:38] <zewt> the webgl guys had similar confusion, by having side-effects of having an event handler registered at all (which fortuantely they fixed)
  319. # [17:39] * Quits: shetech (~shetech@c-76-126-167-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  320. # [17:39] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  321. # [17:40] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@81-178-194-113.dsl.pipex.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  322. # [17:41] <Ms2ger> "spam a note with <span>"
  323. # [17:41] * Joins: timeless (d04149cb@firefox/developer/timeless)
  324. # [17:42] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  325. # [17:43] <zewt> it's also discouraging that people who should know better go "come on let's just add a few little unexpected side-effects to a core API" :|
  326. # [17:44] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  327. # [17:44] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  328. # [17:48] * Quits: divya (~Adium@guest.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  329. # [17:49] <kennyluck> good morning, Whatwg!
  330. # [17:54] <hsivonen> aargh. is polyglot on its way to pubrules if it's up to TimBL? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Sep/0008.html
  331. # [17:55] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  332. # [17:57] <timeless> hsivonen: g+ has spam puppets?
  333. # [17:57] <timeless> no fair, i can't see them, i got kicked off g+ :)
  334. # [17:58] <timeless> hsivonen: fwiw, the US doesn't really have a database of all US citizens
  335. # [17:59] <timeless> at best it has a database of all people who have filed taxes
  336. # [17:59] <timeless> but chlidren don't file taxes generally, and you can certainly get passports for them
  337. # [17:59] * Quits: rabbi1 (~manjunath@49.200.68.194) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  338. # [18:00] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-71-198-169-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  339. # [18:00] <timeless> on the topic of current residence, i have at least one account w/ 200cad currently suspended because i changed too many fields at the same time
  340. # [18:00] <zewt> birth certificates
  341. # [18:01] <timeless> so i get to scan a utility bill at some point as step 1/5 to try to unlock the account
  342. # [18:01] <timeless> (this isn't actually a bad thing, i don't blame them for thinking my account was stolen, the actions i took sure make it look like i stole the account)
  343. # [18:01] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  344. # [18:01] <timeless> zewt: birth certificates aren't actually well backed by a database either fwiw
  345. # [18:02] <timeless> at least not for people going back to say 1901
  346. # [18:02] <timeless> it might be the case that they're well backed to say 1960
  347. # [18:02] <zewt> but for people who are children now :)
  348. # [18:02] <hsivonen> timeless: it sucks that they kicked you out, though I had been wondering what took them so long
  349. # [18:02] <timeless> hsivonen: yeah, i was wondering that too :)
  350. # [18:02] <timeless> but i don't think they have a proper database that pairs birth to death
  351. # [18:03] <timeless> which means that if your child is born in one place, and dies elsewhere, i don't think the database record is required to "close" :)
  352. # [18:03] <hsivonen> timeless: did this cause collateral damage to your use of other Google services?
  353. # [18:03] <timeless> hsivonen: my picasa account is suspended
  354. # [18:03] <hsivonen> timeless: and are they now blocking you from seeing public posts if you are logged in?
  355. # [18:04] <timeless> i had to liberate the data
  356. # [18:04] <timeless> otherwise the consequences are minimal
  357. # [18:04] <hsivonen> timeless: did Picasa have a real names policy when you signed up?
  358. # [18:04] <timeless> no
  359. # [18:04] <timeless> the account was tied to timeless
  360. # [18:04] <timeless> and i have an account in my real name too
  361. # [18:04] <timeless> i chose not to use that one for the data..
  362. # [18:05] <hsivonen> Google is burning goodwill pointlessly here
  363. # [18:05] <timeless> # [15:11] <hsivonen> erlehmann: heh. the wikipedia entries for Finland and Sweden have obviously been copied and pasted from each other (as probably the relevant legislation, too).
  364. # [18:05] * timeless chuckls
  365. # [18:05] <timeless> s/ls/les/
  366. # [18:07] <timeless> kennyluck: my favorite wrt C was the definition of `main`
  367. # [18:07] <timeless> it basically said `this set of main() functions are vaild, plus any documented by the compiler to be valid`
  368. # [18:07] <hsivonen> timeless: it also sucks that the rules are different for Famous People. Madonna gets to use "." as her last name (which is dumb--shouldn't they support one-token names for real Indian names anyway) and MG Siegler doesn't need to expand MG
  369. # [18:07] <hsivonen> (both Madonna and MG have verified accounts that seem to break the rules)
  370. # [18:07] <timeless> hsivonen: oh, she used "."?
  371. # [18:08] * timeless should try that
  372. # [18:08] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  373. # [18:08] <zewt> why would google support people using names that are literally impossible to search for, heh
  374. # [18:09] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  375. # [18:10] <timeless> zewt: that soudns like my opinion on anything outside the us-ascii range :)
  376. # [18:10] <hsivonen> anyway, the way Google is treating other people makes me less enthusiastic to use G+ even though I have a conforming name
  377. # [18:10] * timeless wonders if this browser has bookmarked the page talking about the Poker player with the nullish byte in his name
  378. # [18:10] <hsivonen> (conforming name in the ASCII range even)
  379. # [18:11] <timeless> hsivonen: btw, i'm quite glad you do have such a name
  380. # [18:11] <zewt> hsivonen: the fact that they go "we care about privacy!" and then immediately proceed with a privacy-demolishing names policy is borderline hilarious
  381. # [18:11] <timeless> just as i was glad to move from Döbelninkatu to Hietaniemenkatu
  382. # [18:11] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Quit: Leaving)
  383. # [18:11] <timeless> that first address is still stuck in some places
  384. # [18:12] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.43.92) (Remote host closed the connection)
  385. # [18:12] <timeless> iirc my .eu domain might have it
  386. # [18:12] <timeless> because changing that field was basically impossible :)
  387. # [18:12] <hsivonen> timeless: I went downhill on that point. I'm now on Strömbergintie
  388. # [18:12] <timeless> eww
  389. # [18:12] <timeless> has it caused any pain?
  390. # [18:13] <zewt> at least for locations you can leave off combining marks and stuff will *usually* still get to where it goes
  391. # [18:13] <zewt> of course, sites that try to be "smart" and "verify" addresses may give a headache, but those give everyone headaches
  392. # [18:14] <hsivonen> timeless: no pain so far, but an American company has sent me postal mail to Strömbergintie because they were too incompetent to pull UTF-8 out of Paypal's system correctly
  393. # [18:14] <timeless> sounds familiar
  394. # [18:14] <timeless> i presume that posti.fi is used to handling such things? :)
  395. # [18:14] <hsivonen> (I'm told that Paypal's API does the right thing)
  396. # [18:14] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.75) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  397. # [18:14] <timeless> wow
  398. # [18:14] <zewt> heh i remember somewhere seeing mail forwarding by russian post offices or something, where they use tables to de-mojibake printed addresses
  399. # [18:15] <hsivonen> timeless: the mailing reached me, alas
  400. # [18:15] <timeless> so far paypal has caused me minor pain because W3C is silly
  401. # [18:15] <hsivonen> timeless: I wish it had been returned to the sender
  402. # [18:15] * Quits: woef (~woef@91.183.84.141) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  403. # [18:15] <timeless> W3C's TPAC billing agency is in Paris
  404. # [18:15] <timeless> the event is in California
  405. # [18:15] <timeless> and the system here automatically fills in (and PINS) the biller for reimbursement
  406. # [18:16] <timeless> and then it sanity checks that the currency (USD) matches the location (EUR/Paris)
  407. # [18:16] <timeless> and complains when it doesn't
  408. # [18:16] <timeless> grr
  409. # [18:16] <hsivonen> (not because of the botched address but because I didn't want to order the thing. it was added to my order in order to have a pretext to charge extra)
  410. # [18:16] <timeless> heh
  411. # [18:16] * Quits: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  412. # [18:17] <hsivonen> conclusion: don't do business with Kagi. If you do do business with Kagi, be sure to delete extra unsolicited items from your order before checking out
  413. # [18:17] <zewt> and beware of godaddy, heh
  414. # [18:18] <zewt> they set ssl certificates to auto-renew without asking, and the only way to find out is through obscure menus
  415. # [18:18] <timeless> zewt: hrm
  416. # [18:18] <timeless> do they at least send you your new certs somehow?
  417. # [18:19] <zewt> they renew your cert and charge you full price ($50) without permission
  418. # [18:19] <zewt> http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/09/godaddy/ another case of godaddy keepin' it classy
  419. # [18:19] <zewt> need to find another usable budget CA
  420. # [18:20] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-ypebhxwsgrkjuagm)
  421. # [18:20] <timeless> zewt: nice
  422. # [18:20] <timeless> <jwz> Next time I'll go with DigiNotar, I've been hearing good things.
  423. # [18:20] <zewt> heh
  424. # [18:21] <zewt> i hear you can just get a nice universal wildcard certificate and not have to worry about certs ever again
  425. # [18:21] <timeless> i was surprised they allowed issuing "*.*.com" and "Foo Space Bar"
  426. # [18:21] <zewt> do any browsers actually accept *.com, though?
  427. # [18:21] <timeless> given that afaik no browser will allow more than one * in a Cert
  428. # [18:21] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  429. # [18:21] <timeless> dunno, *.com might be legal
  430. # [18:21] <timeless> *.*.anything is not
  431. # [18:22] <zewt> i know at least some ssl code explicitly rejects wildcards at that level
  432. # [18:22] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  433. # [18:22] <zewt> sad, of course, that that actually *mattered*
  434. # [18:22] <timeless> it's possible that *.com is only legal if <com> is appropriately listed in the ccTLD cookie file
  435. # [18:23] * timeless doesn't really feel like generating the necessary certs to test *.com
  436. # [18:23] <timeless> otoh, if you don't mind a delay in payment, i'll gladly send you 5usd via paypal if you test that condition and publish your findings
  437. # [18:24] <timeless> (by delay, i mean somewhat significant, as i have to get my paypal accounts in order...)
  438. # [18:24] * timeless hates passwords
  439. # [18:25] <timeless> http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/09/godaddy/#comment-93938
  440. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> annevk5, I guess concept-range-bp-node could be the same as concept-node, yeah. Not sure why they're different, offhand.
  441. # [18:30] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  442. # [18:31] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@li326-230.members.linode.com)
  443. # [18:37] * ralphholzmann is now known as ralphholzmann_di
  444. # [18:37] * ralphholzmann_di is now known as ralph_dicks
  445. # [18:38] * ralph_dicks is now known as ralphholdsmen
  446. # [18:38] * Joins: David_Bradbury (~chatzilla@75-147-178-254-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  447. # [18:39] * Joins: david_carlisle_ (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  448. # [18:40] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-49-129-67-216.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  449. # [18:40] * ralphholdsmen is now known as ralphholzmann
  450. # [18:41] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  451. # [18:41] * david_carlisle_ is now known as david_carlisle
  452. # [18:42] * Quits: rtuin (~rtuin@dsl-087-195-129-241.solcon.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  453. # [18:44] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@nat/google/x-bqdnpvfbnwxlyena)
  454. # [18:55] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
  455. # [18:55] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12) (Changing host)
  456. # [18:55] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  457. # [18:57] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
  458. # [18:58] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  459. # [18:58] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  460. # [19:01] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  461. # [19:10] * Quits: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) (Quit: adactio)
  462. # [19:12] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:401:8c22:f9d2:4f5b:e76f)
  463. # [19:14] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@92.40.253.166.threembb.co.uk)
  464. # [19:17] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-adoxthghgwwupxtl)
  465. # [19:17] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  466. # [19:22] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@192.150.22.5)
  467. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Looks like css3-values just missed the 5-year mark
  468. # [19:27] <timeless> yeah well
  469. # [19:27] <timeless> that's hardly a big accomplishment :)
  470. # [19:28] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.181.213) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  471. # [19:29] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.181.213)
  472. # [19:32] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.252)
  473. # [19:36] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  474. # [19:37] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  475. # [19:39] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  476. # [19:43] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  477. # [19:43] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Excess Flood)
  478. # [19:45] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.75)
  479. # [19:46] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-adoxthghgwwupxtl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  480. # [19:46] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-uvmpdmtdyilswaix)
  481. # [19:49] * Joins: charlvn (~root@mobilefeed.tk)
  482. # [19:52] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-zjekzghpxunfujwq)
  483. # [19:53] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  484. # [19:54] <gsnedders> XMLDocument is used by Dojo to sniff whether to be case-sensitive for comparisons on not in Presto… in a buggy manner.
  485. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> \o>
  486. # [19:55] * Joins: ako (~nya@fuld-590c7502.pool.mediaWays.net)
  487. # [19:57] <gsnedders> Removing XMLDocument will only break stuff that relies upon case-senitivity in XHTML documents, I think, so the breakage there is minimal.
  488. # [19:57] <gsnedders> (Though mainly because the behaviour on the Presto code-path is already so broken.)
  489. # [19:58] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-590c7f2d.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  490. # [19:58] * ako is now known as aho
  491. # [20:02] * Quits: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  492. # [20:13] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com)
  493. # [20:14] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-98.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  494. # [20:18] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  495. # [20:20] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194)
  496. # [20:29] * Joins: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
  497. # [20:37] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  498. # [20:40] * Joins: brucel (~brucel@212.17.145.74)
  499. # [20:42] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194) (Quit: hij1nx)
  500. # [20:46] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:9039:c434:d69:2823)
  501. # [20:49] * Quits: janv_ (~varga@195.91.81.147) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  502. # [20:54] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.181.213) (Quit: nn)
  503. # [20:59] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM111-191-60-79.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  504. # [21:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-155-240.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  505. # [21:02] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  506. # [21:03] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.252) (Quit: othermaciej)
  507. # [21:06] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.9.75)
  508. # [21:10] <timeless> has anyone here played w/ QoS in the last 8 years?
  509. # [21:10] <zewt> only simple token bucket stuff
  510. # [21:11] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.9.75) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  511. # [21:12] <timeless> i was wondering if anyone knows of anything related which is actually usefully deployed
  512. # [21:12] <timeless> especially if any have been deployed by telco's or isp's
  513. # [21:13] <timeless> (I2 deployments aren't helpful)
  514. # [21:13] <zewt> well, comcast qos's everyone
  515. # [21:13] <zewt> that's what "speedboost" is
  516. # [21:13] <timeless> well, does it do it in a useful way?
  517. # [21:13] <timeless> rather
  518. # [21:13] <timeless> if one customer sets up 3 connections for three different purposes
  519. # [21:13] <zewt> my connection is about 2mb/sec for a minute or two, then tapers down to 750k/sec
  520. # [21:13] <timeless> can that customer influence behavior by using any QoS tag
  521. # [21:14] <zewt> dunno what you're asking
  522. # [21:14] <timeless> suppose you have 3 connections, one you'd like to download "eventually"
  523. # [21:14] <timeless> one you'd like to watch "in real time"
  524. # [21:14] <timeless> one you'd like to get "as soon as possible, but not necessarily in real time"
  525. # [21:14] <timeless> assume that each connection is backed by 10mb of data
  526. # [21:15] <zewt> a bit too specific for an ISP to do it...
  527. # [21:15] <timeless> is there a way for you to adjust your requests for the 3 resources such that instead of each being given "2mbps for 120s ; 750kbps"
  528. # [21:15] <timeless> you get something else...
  529. # [21:15] <zewt> well, linux qos can do that, but i don't know about it being used in any broad way
  530. # [21:15] <timeless> possibly "100kbps initially" on that first request
  531. # [21:16] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.9.75)
  532. # [21:16] <timeless> right, i believe that various QoS things are capable of doing this
  533. # [21:16] <timeless> what interests me is whether anyone has any useful ISPs who have any deployed QoS one can *talk* to
  534. # [21:16] <zewt> (bucket data based on ip/port/tcp flags/whatever)
  535. # [21:17] <zewt> don't know
  536. # [21:17] <timeless> (yes, "useful ISPs" is probably a nonsequitor)
  537. # [21:19] <hsivonen> was SIP designed by people whose top priority was lawful intercept or how else did they manage to make it unencrypted in practice?
  538. # [21:19] <timeless> hsivonen: you'd prefer that they bake in default certs? :)
  539. # [21:20] <timeless> i think the general idea with most things is "develop the basic protocol in a debuggable manner" "apply crypto as an independent layer"
  540. # [21:20] <timeless> it makes things easier to design/debug
  541. # [21:20] <timeless> and you just pray that someone else solves crypto for you
  542. # [21:21] <hsivonen> timeless: except it looks like the crypto layer didn't get applied to SIP
  543. # [21:21] <timeless> um
  544. # [21:21] <timeless> there's definitely a sips
  545. # [21:21] <timeless> nokia was using it
  546. # [21:21] <timeless> http://wiki.freeswitch.org/wiki/SIP_TLS
  547. # [21:21] <zewt> "lawful intercept" sure sounds like a bad euphemism for "spying"
  548. # [21:21] <hsivonen> if you want to turn a legacy Helsinki-area landline number to a VoiP number with Elisa, their solution uses unencrypted SIP
  549. # [21:21] <timeless> by that, i mean that my n900 let me make VoIP calls using sips w/ nokia as my sip provider
  550. # [21:22] <timeless> you can ask sp3000 to play with it since he's still there
  551. # [21:22] <timeless> hsivonen: that sounds more like an implementation detail that the vendor didn't pay for
  552. # [21:23] <timeless> paying here could just be "[x] provide SSL for SIP" which translates into "1 person week" "get Cert, configure Cert,
  553. # [21:23] <timeless> write instructions for using SIPS"
  554. # [21:24] <timeless> hrm, possibly 2 other people who translate those instructions into Fingrish or Finnish or Swedish
  555. # [21:24] <timeless> depending on ...
  556. # [21:24] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@77.40.224.114)
  557. # [21:24] <timeless> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=et&u=http://mipc.telegrupp.ee/paketid/elisa-sip-trunk&ei=H3JmTq3IAYS80AHHmJn-CQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCIQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Delisa%2Bsip%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D702%26bih%3D780%26prmd%3Divns
  558. # [21:24] <timeless> is all i can find
  559. # [21:25] <Philip`> timeless: Would you count things like http://www.paetec.com/products-services/data/mpls-vpn/overview.html where someone provides a VPN service that you can connect your networks to, with QoS prioritisation support?
  560. # [21:25] <hsivonen> timeless: Well, it can't be a coincidence that some admins want to limit SIP to a VPN
  561. # [21:26] <hsivonen> timeless: presumably SIP along sucks enough that it can't be allowed to cross the public Internet without a VPN
  562. # [21:26] <timeless> Philip`: hrm
  563. # [21:26] <timeless> hsivonen: well, nokia certainly didn't deploy SIPs-less for its emoployees
  564. # [21:26] <timeless> s/emo/em/
  565. # [21:26] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-106f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  566. # [21:26] <timeless> we got the SIPS version only :)
  567. # [21:27] <timeless> and we could use it freely from anywhere in the world
  568. # [21:27] <timeless> in fact, we were encouraged to do so
  569. # [21:27] <hsivonen> timeless: isn't SIPS encrypted just for signaling? what about the speech payload?
  570. # [21:27] <timeless> (the same more or less applies to RIM's solution, the underlying details i don't know)
  571. # [21:27] <Philip`> (I'd guess QoS is pretty useless unless it's end-to-end, and it's really hard getting multiple providers to cooperate, and if you want a single provider end-to-end network then it seems more likely to be an MPLS VPN than plain old IP, as far as I'm aware)
  572. # [21:27] <timeless> hsivonen: dunno, i don't have a working SIPS provider anymore, talk to sp3000
  573. # [21:28] <timeless> Philip`: well
  574. # [21:28] <timeless> lemme outline a use case
  575. # [21:28] <timeless> 3 users set up connections at a home in NAm
  576. # [21:28] <hsivonen> timeless: according to the wiki page you linked to, SIPS is for signaling
  577. # [21:28] <timeless> they can choose from Rogers, Bell, AT&T, and a couple of others
  578. # [21:28] <hsivonen> timeless: you also need SRTP if you want encrypted payloads
  579. # [21:28] <timeless> hsivonen: i'd certainly hope that the nokia deployed thing did the right thing
  580. # [21:29] <timeless> if not, well...
  581. # [21:29] <hsivonen> timeless: so if the other end of your call doesn't jump through all these hoops, you end up having to use the least encrypted mode that works
  582. # [21:29] <timeless> but really, i don't have logs of my sips initiated sessions
  583. # [21:29] <timeless> hsivonen: well
  584. # [21:29] <timeless> in our case, typically it was SIPS => POTS
  585. # [21:29] <timeless> which meant we were supposed to be encrypted between our n900 and the POTS gateway
  586. # [21:30] <timeless> which then hopefully was "
  587. # [21:30] <timeless> magically secure"
  588. # [21:30] <timeless> along the POTS path
  589. # [21:30] <timeless> (government wiretapping included at no extra charge)
  590. # [21:30] <hsivonen> timeless: Elisa says that if you also use Elisa as your ISP, the SIP hop is as secure as the POTS part
  591. # [21:30] <timeless> (and national laws against anyone else doing the wiretapping...)
  592. # [21:30] <hsivonen> timeless: but if you don't use Elisa as your ISP, you don't know (a priori) where the SIP hop travels
  593. # [21:31] <timeless> hsivonen: this is Elisa DSL?
  594. # [21:31] <timeless> or Elisa Cellular?
  595. # [21:31] <timeless> elisa doesn't do Cable, right?
  596. # [21:31] <hsivonen> timeless: DSL or fiber
  597. # [21:31] <timeless> and presumably they aren't talking about SIP while on <someone-else's-wifi>
  598. # [21:32] <hsivonen> timeless: it seems they do cable now, too, at least in some locations
  599. # [21:32] <timeless> joy
  600. # [21:32] <timeless> so they're like Rogers here
  601. # [21:32] <timeless> generally speaking, Cable = shared local link
  602. # [21:32] <hsivonen> timeless: (well, their subsidiary does)
  603. # [21:33] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  604. # [21:33] <hsivonen> also, SIP is terribly brittle compared to Skype
  605. # [21:33] * timeless ponders
  606. # [21:33] <timeless> I've used Nokia SIPS, Skype, Gtalk, and BlackBerry MVS to talk to my parents
  607. # [21:33] <timeless> it turns out they weren't particularly impressed w/ the quality of some of those
  608. # [21:33] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@77.40.224.114) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  609. # [21:34] <hsivonen> as in, the Elisa-provided SIP box didn't work with network arrangements than Skype was fine with
  610. # [21:34] <timeless> but they didn't give me enough pushback for me to know about it
  611. # [21:34] <timeless> oh
  612. # [21:34] * timeless wouldn't call that brittle
  613. # [21:34] <timeless> brittle typically means "likely to break after/in deployment"
  614. # [21:34] <hsivonen> timeless: well, picky
  615. # [21:34] <timeless> yeah, picky is a better word
  616. # [21:35] * timeless is still trying to think of the more correct term but has blanked
  617. # [21:35] <timeless> anyway, Skype was designed for all sorts of rude network topographies
  618. # [21:36] <timeless> ("robust")
  619. # [21:36] <hsivonen> well, it sucks that the IETF protocol is neither secure nor robust
  620. # [21:36] <timeless> being robust tends to require overengineering and additional endpoints
  621. # [21:37] <hsivonen> the only redeeming factors is federation and open spec
  622. # [21:37] * timeless thinks skype may have resolved some of those points recently
  623. # [21:37] <hsivonen> but federation doesn't really matter when SIP is only used together with a POTS bridge
  624. # [21:39] <timeless> right
  625. # [21:40] <timeless> iirc i was able to use nokia's sips to call zakim@w3.org
  626. # [21:40] <hsivonen> timeless: fwiw, AFAICT, all the three major operators now offer fiber, cable, DSL and 3G
  627. # [21:40] <timeless> which was nice, i.e. i had both POTS bridging and federation
  628. # [21:41] <hsivonen> though curiously, their regulatory statuses aren't symmetrical
  629. # [21:41] <timeless> (technically Skype has both)
  630. # [21:41] <timeless> lol
  631. # [21:41] <timeless> this is Elisa, Sonera, Welho, right?
  632. # [21:41] <hsivonen> timeless: right
  633. # [21:41] <timeless> Welho is treated as a monopoly and the others aren't?
  634. # [21:42] <hsivonen> timeless: so Elisa has to rent their phone copper to everyone but Welho doesn't need to rent their fiber
  635. # [21:42] <timeless> nice
  636. # [21:42] <hsivonen> timeless: dunno if Welho is required to rent their cable
  637. # [21:42] <timeless> yeah, i haven't quite figured out the story of the operators here
  638. # [21:42] <hsivonen> (I called the regulator to find out that Welho isn't required to rent out their fiber)
  639. # [21:42] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  640. # [21:43] <timeless> we have Bell and Rogers as the original Phone/Cable providers
  641. # [21:43] <timeless> hsivonen: nice
  642. # [21:43] * timeless remembers calling the US Census Bureau from Finland to ask about a small town
  643. # [21:44] <timeless> http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=Guam,+Missouri,+United+States&hl=en&ftid=0x88786da513501111:0xd3f08770817ac3c8
  644. # [21:46] <timeless> ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam,_Missouri is the relevant page
  645. # [21:46] <timeless> hsivonen: wanna guess why we looked that one up? :)
  646. # [21:47] <timeless> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fi&u=http://www.elisa.fi/saunalahti/asiakaspalvelu/740/saunalahti-nettipuhelin/10100/kaytto-voip-tai-lankapuhelimella/&ei=f3JmTu2vOMG80AGe_OSoCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsip%2Bsite:elisa.fi%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D809%26prmd%3Divns
  647. # [21:47] <timeless> seems like it was your SIP thing..
  648. # [21:48] <timeless> oh joy
  649. # [21:48] <hsivonen> timeless: you thought Guam, Missouri was inconsistent data?
  650. # [21:48] <timeless> it's always nice to see devices that ask you to *confirm* your password
  651. # [21:48] <timeless> hsivonen: the n900 original firmware had two entries for Guam
  652. # [21:48] <timeless> one was for Guam, USA
  653. # [21:49] <hsivonen> timeless: that's a different SIP service.
  654. # [21:49] <timeless> we wanted to confirm that no one in their right mind would want to have that Guam listed in their world map
  655. # [21:50] <timeless> so, one of the steps was determining a population :)
  656. # [21:51] * Joins: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70)
  657. # [21:54] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  658. # [21:55] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-wrvjhenwzjmcxubu)
  659. # [21:56] <timeless> hsivonen: i like how some of them have you entering an IP into a field
  660. # [21:56] <timeless> Outbound Proxy: 195.197.95.4
  661. # [21:58] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.75) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  662. # [22:04] <timeless> hsivonen: speaking of which
  663. # [22:05] <timeless> do you have your elisa-sip service, or are you just researching?
  664. # [22:05] <timeless> http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim-SIP
  665. # [22:05] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.9.75) (Quit: othermaciej)
  666. # [22:05] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  667. # [22:06] <timeless> i'm wondering if you can actually call zakim (zakim@voip.w3.org) using it
  668. # [22:07] <hsivonen> timeless: the would-be user for the SIP service was my grandmother, but she died before my dad and I got the SIP thing working, so we returned it without getting it to work
  669. # [22:07] <timeless> oh, sorry to hear that
  670. # [22:09] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.16.58)
  671. # [22:09] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-uvmpdmtdyilswaix) (Quit: jamesr_)
  672. # [22:09] <hsivonen> anyway, I learned that there now exists at least one building in Helsinki that doesn't have phone copper
  673. # [22:10] <hsivonen> which meant that the phone options were GSM or VoIP
  674. # [22:12] * Quits: brucel (~brucel@212.17.145.74) (Quit: brucel)
  675. # [22:13] * Quits: robman (~robman@eth4584.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  676. # [22:13] <hsivonen> throughout the episode, Elisa's customer service was terrible
  677. # [22:14] <timeless> bad customer service in Finland
  678. # [22:14] <timeless> i don't believe it
  679. # [22:14] <timeless> oh wait, i lived there for 5 years
  680. # [22:14] <timeless> :)
  681. # [22:14] <timeless> good customer service is generally unheard of there :)
  682. # [22:14] <hsivonen> well, Welho's customer service was fine, when I eventually arranged Welho's fiber for my grandfather for the same apartment
  683. # [22:15] <timeless> fine!=good fwiw
  684. # [22:15] <timeless> although `fine` is a typical finnish description
  685. # [22:15] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-bpsanzujfeabtbbv)
  686. # [22:15] <timeless> fine is somewhere between a D+ and a C
  687. # [22:15] <hsivonen> well, the Welho people answered all my questions and AFAICT answered them correctly and fast
  688. # [22:16] <timeless> did they suggest answers to questions you didn't think to ask but would have needed to ask in later round trips?
  689. # [22:16] <hsivonen> whereas the Elisa people didn't answer or answered incorrectly or were unreasonably slow
  690. # [22:16] <timeless> my experiences w/ elisa have been bad
  691. # [22:17] <timeless> and they sent me another bill recently
  692. # [22:17] * timeless grumbles
  693. # [22:17] <hsivonen> timeless: no, but there isn't really much to ask if you are buying Internet connectivity itself from a company that owns the fiber
  694. # [22:18] * timeless nods
  695. # [22:18] <timeless> this mostly applies to cases where you end up doing 10 round trips where there were some questions they could have asked or things they could have told you to save you round trips
  696. # [22:19] <timeless> giving you the list of hostnames for all possible fields and suggested alternate ip addresses in case your device sucks
  697. # [22:19] <timeless> are ways of doing that
  698. # [22:19] <timeless> (or offering to do that, instead of just flooding you with them)
  699. # [22:20] <hsivonen> fwiw, our apartment has Elisa's fiber, and purchasing that was uneventful, because, again, there's nothing special about buying just connectivity from the company that own the fiber
  700. # [22:20] <timeless> how long did it take for that?
  701. # [22:20] <hsivonen> I don't remember
  702. # [22:20] <timeless> w/ rogers it sounds like it can take a week for a guy to come to "install" your cable
  703. # [22:21] <hsivonen> with Welho, both fiber and cable are instant-on
  704. # [22:21] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  705. # [22:21] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: ...)
  706. # [22:21] <hsivonen> I can't recall if Elisa's fiber was instant or took a day or so
  707. # [22:21] <timeless> "bring your own router/box"?
  708. # [22:21] <timeless> for my Elisa DSL, they had to schedule a guy to come
  709. # [22:21] <timeless> i think he did some line tests (since the building is rather old, that isn't inappropriate)
  710. # [22:21] <hsivonen> timeless: Ethernet in the apartment
  711. # [22:22] <timeless> and basically deployed a filter or two and plugged in a router
  712. # [22:22] <hsivonen> timeless: so own router required if more than one device
  713. # [22:22] <timeless> ethernet in apartment? nice
  714. # [22:22] <timeless> so no stupid extra box
  715. # [22:23] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194)
  716. # [22:23] <timeless> i think the strange thing w/ finland is that the classic phone system doesn't use typical RJ- connectors
  717. # [22:23] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Telefonkontakt.jpg
  718. # [22:23] <hsivonen> our apartment and my grandfather's apartment have the same arrangement: there's a electricity/telecom cabinet in the apartment that has an RJ-45 to the outside world and a bunch of RJ-45 sockets that connect to wall outlets around the apartment
  719. # [22:24] <hsivonen> so you either use a short Ethernet cable to connect the outside world to the wall socket of your choice
  720. # [22:25] <hsivonen> or you put a router in the cabinet (which also has electricity sockets for this precise purpose) and connect the router to several wall sockets
  721. # [22:26] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
  722. # [22:27] <hsivonen> timeless: our telecom cabinet has also outgoing RJ-11
  723. # [22:27] * Joins: hij1nx_ (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194)
  724. # [22:28] <timeless> is there anything that actually talks about the rj-11 3prog thing used in finland?
  725. # [22:28] <timeless> the wikipedia page just says that it's a national standard
  726. # [22:28] <timeless> but no explanation of why
  727. # [22:28] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@34.198.247.173.mozilla-sfo1.web-pass.com)
  728. # [22:28] <hsivonen> timeless: I haven't bothered to find out if there's actually a wire behind RJ-11
  729. # [22:28] <timeless> lol
  730. # [22:29] <hsivonen> timeless: the 3-pronged thing is ancient since at least the 1950s
  731. # [22:29] <hsivonen> timeless: dunno where it came from
  732. # [22:29] <hsivonen> our apartment doesn't have the 3-pronged socket anywhere
  733. # [22:29] <hsivonen> and the wall sockets are RJ-45
  734. # [22:30] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  735. # [22:30] * hij1nx_ is now known as hij1nx
  736. # [22:30] <hsivonen> so I suppose if one bought service to the outgoing RJ-11 (if there's wire!), one would have to use the RJ-45 cabling from there onwards
  737. # [22:34] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-106f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  738. # [22:34] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_6312 is distressing
  739. # [22:34] <timeless> (especially: Connector on phone)
  740. # [22:36] <hsivonen> timeless: hooray pointlessly slightly different standard
  741. # [22:36] <timeless> yep
  742. # [22:38] <timeless> oh awesome
  743. # [22:38] <timeless> check out IPlate => BT Broadband Accelerator
  744. # [22:38] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb_)
  745. # [22:38] <zewt> heh uk wiring is pretty hilarious
  746. # [22:38] <zewt> i can't help but laugh whenever i see uk power plugs
  747. # [22:39] <timeless> i tend to cry
  748. # [22:39] <zewt> i don't have to use them so
  749. # [22:39] <timeless> i have 1 generic => UK adapter, and 1 fairly standard laptop => UK cable
  750. # [22:40] <hsivonen> the design of the UK electricity plug is mind-blowing
  751. # [22:41] <hsivonen> it's not just different shape or different current/voltage. the electrical design is different
  752. # [22:41] <hsivonen> the wiring topology inside apartments is different
  753. # [22:42] <hsivonen> and the fuses are in different places
  754. # [22:43] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets is only 34 printed pages :)
  755. # [22:43] <timeless> hsivonen: grr
  756. # [22:43] * Joins: danja (~danny@host110-53-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  757. # [22:43] <zewt> what we need
  758. # [22:43] <zewt> is for one country to take over the whole world for one year
  759. # [22:43] <timeless> did i mention that when my movers came to packet my apartment in Helsinki, they packed my spare Fuses?
  760. # [22:43] <timeless> ...
  761. # [22:43] <timeless> and then a fuse blew
  762. # [22:43] <zewt> just long enough to force everyone onto the same power standards, paper standards, and so on
  763. # [22:43] <zewt> then topple it and go back
  764. # [22:43] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  765. # [22:44] <timeless> zewt: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared ?
  766. # [22:44] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  767. # [22:44] <zewt> my bookshelf won't fit A4 books :(
  768. # [22:45] <timeless> heh
  769. # [22:46] <zewt> also it's been over 48 hours, isn't it time for microusb to be declared obsolete and yet another usb connector to come into fashion
  770. # [22:46] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  771. # [22:46] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Well, the aim with the wiring was to limit the amount of wires needed within houses, AFAIK
  772. # [22:47] <hsivonen> timeless: hah. fortunately, this apartment doesn't need spare fuses
  773. # [22:47] <timeless> hsivonen: the fuses arrived here in Toronto
  774. # [22:47] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@212.71.74.162)
  775. # [22:47] <zewt> i'd sooner not live somewhere old enough to not have breakers
  776. # [22:47] <timeless> along with assorted other unhelpful items
  777. # [22:47] <hsivonen> timeless: are they compatible with what you need there?
  778. # [22:47] <timeless> including a classic-finnish-key (actually, two!)
  779. # [22:48] <timeless> and a couple of finnish light bulbs
  780. # [22:48] <timeless> hsivonen: of course not
  781. # [22:48] <timeless> the civilized world uses circuit breakers!
  782. # [22:48] <hsivonen> timeless: does Canada have different light bulb sockets?
  783. # [22:48] <timeless> hsivonen: voltage issue
  784. # [22:48] <zewt> canadians see a different spectrum of light
  785. # [22:48] <timeless> Canada is on the NAm standard
  786. # [22:48] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  787. # [22:48] <timeless> Finland is on the EU standard
  788. # [22:49] <hsivonen> yay standards
  789. # [22:49] <timeless> and yes, at least using a NAm light bulb in my Finnish apartment blew a fuse
  790. # [22:49] <timeless> actually, iirc i managed to blow two fuses that way
  791. # [22:49] <timeless> (And a pair of bulbs?)
  792. # [22:49] <timeless> hsivonen: exactly!
  793. # [22:49] <gsnedders> (in the UK it is standard to have circuit breakers and fuses in each socket, not just in the socket, which is advantageous insofar as each socket can be fused for a maximum more suited to the specific advice)
  794. # [22:49] <Philip`> zewt: Surely it'd take longer than a year for that country to migrate all the infrastructure to a new standard; a better solution would be to have a war and destroy every country (preferably one at a time, not all at once) so they have to rebuild and then they might as well rebuild with a universal standard that was previously agreed
  795. # [22:49] <hsivonen> timeless: well, new buildings in Finland are fuseless
  796. # [22:50] <timeless> hsivonen: yeah, that helped me a lot...
  797. # [22:50] <timeless> what's your definition of new btw?
  798. # [22:50] <hsivonen> (as in when a "fuse" "blows", you just flip a switch back)
  799. # [22:50] <timeless> hsivonen: that's a "circuit breaker" (see above for civilized world)
  800. # [22:50] <hsivonen> timeless: I don't know what the cut-off is. 2001 is new enough and 1970s is still old
  801. # [22:50] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_breaker
  802. # [22:51] <gsnedders> I don't know how many houses in the UK still have fuses at the entrance point to the house — most have circuit breakers AFAIK.
  803. # [22:51] <timeless> and yeah, finland is weird, you call it "fuseless" instead of having a word to actually describe what's going on
  804. # [22:51] <timeless> yay broken languages
  805. # [22:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the mind-blowing thing is the wiring topology and the fuses in the electrical plugs
  806. # [22:51] <timeless> gsnedders: i remember seeing those on a visit or two
  807. # [22:51] <zewt> we have breakers, but they're in the basement, where we have to go outside, through the bulkhead, around the basement and up a spiderweb-infested stairway-to-nothing
  808. # [22:52] <zewt> so please don't trip the breaker
  809. # [22:52] <timeless> ouch
  810. # [22:52] <timeless> the breaker in my place is in the bedroom
  811. # [22:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Well, with a ring circuit you can't have one thing in a circuit box per socket, because where the circuit box is you have no concept of sockets yet.
  812. # [22:52] <zewt> also no lights once you're on the stairway
  813. # [22:52] <timeless> zewt: of course
  814. # [22:52] <zewt> which is probably for the best, so you don't know how many spiderwebs you're going through
  815. # [22:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: But the wiring topology saves wire, which post-WW2 was a big deal, given the amount that had to be rebuilt.
  816. # [22:53] <timeless> gsnedders: but to do wiring work do you have to kill the "mains power"?
  817. # [22:53] <timeless> Philip`: that's more or less what we did around 1944
  818. # [22:54] * Quits: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  819. # [22:54] <gsnedders> timeless: You just kill whatever ring you're working on, or kill it at the socket-level if you're not touching the ring itself.
  820. # [22:54] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  821. # [22:54] <hsivonen> timeless: it turns out that there is a Finnish word for circuit breaker but I had never heard it (I had heard a misnomer that I realized was enough of a misnomer than I didn't try to translate it directly into English)
  822. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Most British houses have multiple rings, AFAIK
  823. # [22:54] <timeless> hsivonen: interesting
  824. # [22:54] <timeless> not surprising, but interesting
  825. # [22:54] <timeless> i mentioned that because you're not the first person to use fuseless in conversation w/ me when describing modern finnish housing
  826. # [22:55] <timeless> (and then power the ring)
  827. # [22:55] <timeless> gsnedders: so... whenever you want to add something to a ring, you kill the ring, pick the closest point along the ring, and splice into the ring?
  828. # [22:56] <gsnedders> timeless: Pretty much.
  829. # [22:56] <timeless> interesting
  830. # [22:56] * timeless isn't really sure that it's much different from how things work in NAm
  831. # [22:57] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.16.58) (Quit: othermaciej)
  832. # [22:57] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194) (Quit: hij1nx)
  833. # [22:57] <timeless> practically speaking, your ring sounds fairly close to a NAm circuit
  834. # [22:57] * Joins: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  835. # [22:57] <timeless> and given the basic definition of circuit...
  836. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Got any link for that? Wikipedia doesn't quickly find anything for that.
  837. # [22:58] * Quits: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
  838. # [23:00] <timeless> try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_North_America
  839. # [23:00] <timeless> grr, an intranet site killed my web browser
  840. # [23:03] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.75)
  841. # [23:03] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-ypebhxwsgrkjuagm) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  842. # [23:03] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-jnaeaxabjhtowelg)
  843. # [23:03] <timeless> Philip`: iirc you asked about QoS VPN
  844. # [23:03] <timeless> i think the answer is that it doesn't satisfy my requirements
  845. # [23:03] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.123)
  846. # [23:03] <timeless> i could set up a local QoS system for my own testing if i wanted to
  847. # [23:04] <timeless> but in order to do something useful, i'd want to be able to talk to a vendor
  848. # [23:06] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  849. # [23:06] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Client Quit)
  850. # [23:06] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  851. # [23:08] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  852. # [23:08] <Philip`> timeless: The idea is that you talk to a vendor who sets you up a VPN (running entirely on their physical network, not over the internet) which does the useful things, though the idea is also that you're an enterprise network with large amounts of money, as far as I'm aware
  853. # [23:09] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@90.157.247.243) (Quit: Leaving.)
  854. # [23:09] <timeless> Philip`: oh, i can understand it
  855. # [23:09] <timeless> but it doesn't really help me much
  856. # [23:09] <timeless> lemme pastebin a problem space
  857. # [23:09] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-zjekzghpxunfujwq) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  858. # [23:10] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-asgzjgqjygkvhexz)
  859. # [23:10] <Philip`> I imagine it's hard to do QoS over the internet since the internet can't tell separate customers apart, and everyone would set all of their own packets to 'highest priority'
  860. # [23:10] <timeless> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1324125
  861. # [23:10] * Quits: connrs (~connrs@conners.plus.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  862. # [23:11] <timeless> yeah, QoS runs into prisoner problems
  863. # [23:11] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma
  864. # [23:12] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au)
  865. # [23:12] <timeless> i think in theory it might be possible to do slightly better than that
  866. # [23:13] <timeless> in cases where you have an enforcer and can ask a question and be given a "no"
  867. # [23:13] <timeless> at least when you deal w/ <prisoner=end user> <guard=ISP which wants to be mean anyway>
  868. # [23:14] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-16-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  869. # [23:16] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  870. # [23:16] * Joins: connrs (~connrs@conners.plus.com)
  871. # [23:17] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-bpsanzujfeabtbbv) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  872. # [23:18] * Quits: ben_h (~ben@CPE-58-161-41-76.czqd1.win.bigpond.net.au) (Quit: ben_h)
  873. # [23:19] <timeless> using Comcast/AT&T as examples
  874. # [23:19] <timeless> they generally tend to give you an initial burst and then taper you off
  875. # [23:19] <timeless> but they could easily choose not to do that if you (individual customer) included some QoS
  876. # [23:19] <timeless> instead they could try to honor it up to a quota and penalize anything that isn't QoS'd
  877. # [23:21] <timeless> > As of 1 July 2008, wall outlets for Type E (French 2-pin, female earth) are permitted for installations in Denmark.[22] This was done because no electrical equipment sold to private users is equipped with a Type K plug, and to break the monopoly of Lauritz Knudsen — the only company making Type K sockets and plugs.
  878. # [23:21] * timeless chuckles
  879. # [23:22] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@92.40.253.166.threembb.co.uk) (Quit: http://brandedcode.com | http://github.com/miksago)
  880. # [23:22] <timeless> hsivonen: i'm glad to see one of Finland's neighbors caved to basic economics
  881. # [23:23] <timeless> > Sockets for the Schuko Type F will not be permitted. The reason is that a large number of currently used Danish plugs (coincidentally made by the afore mentioned Lauritz Knudsen monopoly) will jam when inserted into a Schuko socket. This may cause damage to the socket. It may also result in a bad connection of the pins, with resultant risk of overheating and fire. Broken Type F sockets are often seen in German hotels visited by Danes
  882. # [23:23] * timeless rotfl
  883. # [23:24] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-pqbppwlfmnjkkqgi)
  884. # [23:24] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  885. # [23:25] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-pqbppwlfmnjkkqgi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  886. # [23:25] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-txxoxkyzfqbufcfx)
  887. # [23:26] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  888. # [23:28] <zcorpan> wait, the orientation information isn't on the event? when it should be a no-brainer to not fire an event on registration...
  889. # [23:28] <Philip`> timeless: Ah - intentional throttling of connections sounds different to what I'd usually assume QoS to be (i.e. unequal prioritisation of packets when congestion occurs)
  890. # [23:29] <zewt> at least in android's webkit, on a quick look: doc->dispatchWindowEvent(Event::create(eventNames().orientationchangeEvent, false, false));
  891. # [23:29] <zewt> don't know about iOS
  892. # [23:29] <zewt> (seems like a good argument for not putting info inside the event itself unless there's a specific reason to need to know what the state was at the time the event was queued)
  893. # [23:30] <timeless> zewt: so...
  894. # [23:30] <zcorpan> hmm looks like the spec has the information on the events
  895. # [23:30] <timeless> the problem is that some things require resources to retrieve
  896. # [23:30] <timeless> e.g. battery crud
  897. # [23:30] <timeless> or orientation
  898. # [23:30] <zewt> how does that matter here?
  899. # [23:30] <timeless> the assumption i had was that one would calculate those as needed and fire the information when available
  900. # [23:30] <zewt> putting it in the event would be even worse in that case, since you'd be computing it even if it's not needed
  901. # [23:31] <zewt> (i havn't looked at this spec; i'm assuming it preserves window.orientation, since discarding what's already widely-implemented would be insane)
  902. # [23:31] <zcorpan> does it matter if the author asks for it by registering a listener or by getting a property?
  903. # [23:31] <timeless> zcorpan: kinda
  904. # [23:31] <timeless> in the case of GPS
  905. # [23:31] <timeless> the time to get a location is 10minutes
  906. # [23:32] <timeless> so if the author asks for it by getting a property, the app hangs for 10minutes
  907. # [23:32] <timeless> which isn't really "ok"
  908. # [23:32] <zewt> (i'm only referring to orientation; gps is a different beast entirely)
  909. # [23:32] <timeless> i'm not sure about orientation, but it wouldn't shock me if the stall was semi significant
  910. # [23:32] <timeless> would 2ms bother you?
  911. # [23:33] <zewt> yes, but there should be no delay at all--the OS always knows the orientation already
  912. # [23:33] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194)
  913. # [23:33] <zcorpan> timeless: ok, so for cases that would take a long time you would want an async api with a method that has a callback or causes an event to fire when it's available
  914. # [23:33] <zewt> that's persistent state that phones (at least) need to keep track of all the time (it's not a simple matter of atomically peeking at an accelerometer)
  915. # [23:34] <zewt> (at least on Android--i happen to have looked over the orientation-state-handling code in android the other day--no clue about iOS)
  916. # [23:34] * Joins: AlexNRoss (~AleossIRC@unaffiliated/aleoss)
  917. # [23:34] <zewt> (rather, i'm sure iOS is the same but can't see the code to say for certain)
  918. # [23:34] <zewt> afk
  919. # [23:37] <timeless> the battery case is amusing
  920. # [23:37] <timeless> the nokia devices i worked on didn't know their power level while charging
  921. # [23:37] <timeless> they knew they were plugged in
  922. # [23:37] <timeless> but they couldn't tell you how much was in the battery
  923. # [23:37] <timeless> and to make things more exciting, the cpu was fully capable of consuming more power than the charger was capable of providing
  924. # [23:38] <timeless> i.e. one could run out of power while plugged into a/c :)
  925. # [23:38] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@203-140-90-21f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  926. # [23:38] <timeless> well, to be fair, that wasn't precisely the 'cpu' so much as 'the complete device package', but..
  927. # [23:39] <timeless> zewt: was your doc->dispatch... thing dispatching the genuine event or a synthetic one?
  928. # [23:41] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  929. # [23:42] <timeless> interesting
  930. # [23:42] <timeless> EV-DO is using QoS
  931. # [23:42] * fishd_ is now known as fishd
  932. # [23:43] <zewt> WebCore/page/Frame.cpp Frame::sendOrientationChangeEvent
  933. # [23:43] <zewt> looks like the place where the engine fires the real event
  934. # [23:43] <zewt> not a webkit expert, though from what i've seen of webkit it usually looks like fairly straightforward code
  935. # [23:44] <zewt> i don't think any chargers can actually tell battery level while charging
  936. # [23:44] <zewt> only estimate
  937. # [23:45] <timeless> laptops seem to give relatively accurate percentages
  938. # [23:45] <timeless> i'm not sure how that works
  939. # [23:45] <zewt> maybe they charge each cell separately?
  940. # [23:45] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@81-178-194-113.dsl.pipex.com)
  941. # [23:45] <zewt> so it can measure the levels of cells that aren't under charge
  942. # [23:45] <zewt> (no idea, just throwing darts)
  943. # [23:46] <timeless> maybe, certainly ibm (lenovo?) thinkpads used to show icons which might actually represent individual cells
  944. # [23:46] <zewt> of course, measuring the charge level of a li-ion battery is hard no matter what
  945. # [23:46] * timeless nods
  946. # [23:47] <timeless> but laptops generally give a percentage reading which is much better than 16%
  947. # [23:47] <zewt> i don't know anything about high-end batteries, i've dealt with firmware for simple AA-cell charging
  948. # [23:47] <timeless> (while charging)
  949. # [23:47] <timeless> now, they might be cheating heavily
  950. # [23:47] <zewt> presumably there's more tech involved in expensive laptop batteries
  951. # [23:47] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (ZombieL@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  952. # [23:47] <timeless> i think that laptops can estimate reasonably well how much power they're consuming
  953. # [23:48] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-asgzjgqjygkvhexz) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  954. # [23:48] <timeless> and can know how much power they're getting from a/c
  955. # [23:48] <zewt> well, they could just measure it, i'd imagine
  956. # [23:48] <timeless> and if they know how much was in the battery before charging, they can do math to get reasonable numbers...
  957. # [23:48] <zewt> my nexus s likes to use as much power as it can draw, it's pretty great to be in an airport and unable to use my phone because if i do it won't charge for the flight, heh
  958. # [23:49] <timeless> cute
  959. # [23:49] <zewt> i think at the time i was on a 500mA adapter though, should be better now that i'm on a 1A one
  960. # [23:49] <timeless> yeah
  961. # [23:49] <zewt> the high-power-adapter situation is pathetic
  962. # [23:49] <timeless> the nokia charges are 1.2A
  963. # [23:49] <timeless> whereas usb chargers are .1 .. .5A
  964. # [23:49] <zewt> tons of "1A" usb wall adapters that don't actually short the data pins to enable it
  965. # [23:49] <timeless> depending on whether your device is smart or stupid
  966. # [23:49] <zewt> usb can do up to 1.5A
  967. # [23:50] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-okejgugijjkbnbvw)
  968. # [23:50] <zewt> if they don't enable high-power charging you're stuck at 500mA
  969. # [23:50] <timeless> i'm not sure why the nokia chargers only did 1.2 instead of 1.5
  970. # [23:50] <zewt> well, the usb spec says 1.5A (iirc, i think it was 1.8A then dropped to 1.5A for some reason), but lots of adapters only say 1A
  971. # [23:51] <zewt> recently i just grabbed http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ZBZ64Q so i don't have to care
  972. # [23:51] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  973. # [23:52] <Philip`> My laptop gives capacity in mAh with a resolution of seemingly at least 50mAh, whether charging or discharging, and if it's running on battery it gives the discharge rate in mA with a resolution of at least 3mA (else it gives the charge rate instead)
  974. # [23:52] <timeless> ouch
  975. # [23:52] <timeless> Philip`: nice
  976. # [23:52] <Philip`> (via /proc/acpi/battery/BAT1/state)
  977. # [23:53] <Philip`> and it's a pretty cheap laptop so I presume anything that's not very old can do this
  978. # [23:53] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194)
  979. # [23:54] <Philip`> (No idea whether it's all based on actual measurement or if it integrates current to get charge or whatever, though)
  980. # [23:55] <Philip`> (but it seems accurate enough)
  981. # [23:59] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Remote host closed the connection)
  982. # [23:59] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@81-178-194-113.dsl.pipex.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  983. # [23:59] * Joins: hij1nx_ (~hij1nx@137.164.143.194)
  984. # Session Close: Wed Sep 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)