/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-07 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Sep 07 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [03:42] <TabAtkins> roc: Thank you for reviving the CSSOM sizing thread!
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# Session Close: Wed Sep 07 04:00:21 2011
#
# Session Start: Wed Sep 07 04:00:21 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [04:02] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [04:02] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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# [07:46] <hsivonen> hooray. W3C list search form now uses HTML5 form features
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# [07:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oh, cool
# [07:57] * MikeSmith didn't know
# [07:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: was there an announcement somewhere?
# [07:57] <MikeSmith> or you just noticed when you went to use it?
# [07:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I just noticed when using it
# [07:58] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [10:11] <annevk> oh that's pretty cool, it uses <datalist>
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# [10:11] <woef> "and that is, in principle, independently distributable or reusable, e.g. in syndication."
# [10:11] <woef> (article spec)
# [10:12] <woef> reusable as in "reusable in different sites than your own"?
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# [12:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: that surrogate-pair validator bug might be a dupe of one already reported
# [12:28] <MikeSmith> I vaguely recall something
# [12:28] <MikeSmith> oh
# [12:28] <MikeSmith> or maybe not
# [12:28] <MikeSmith> I don't remember seeing the "Unmatched low surrogate" error message
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# [14:07] <MikeSmith> latest gsnedders tweet is solid gold
# [14:07] <MikeSmith> but it reminds me that it seems like he's not been saying much here lately
# [14:08] <MikeSmith> so maybe he's finally got his priorities right
# [14:10] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I'm on holiday.
# [14:10] <MikeSmith> ah
# [14:10] <MikeSmith> well, keep that holiday going as long as you can
# [14:10] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: And when I've not been, I've been deeper and deeper in ES land
# [14:10] <MikeSmith> for your own sake
# [14:10] <MikeSmith> ah
# [14:10] <MikeSmith> well, condolensences
# [14:11] <MikeSmith> I had hoped that you were deeper into... something else
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# [15:01] <annevk> maybe we should just do away with boundary points?
# [15:01] <annevk> and call out start node / start offset / end node / end offset out explicitly
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#
# Session Start: Wed Sep 07 15:35:55 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [15:35] * Now talking in #whatwg
# [15:35] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [15:35] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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# [16:40] <AryehGregor> Wow, this looks really cool in Firefox 8.0a2: http://aryeh.name/tmp/editing/conformancetest/runtest.html
# [16:40] <AryehGregor> You actually see all the tests run.
# [16:40] <AryehGregor> For some reason, I'm not sure why.
# [16:40] <AryehGregor> It probably makes it take longer. It didn't used to do that.
# [16:41] <annevk> that's some tests right there :)
# [16:42] <annevk> AryehGregor, while you are here, I hope very much you will review my changes to Ranges at some point
# [16:42] <AryehGregor> I definitely will.
# [16:42] <AryehGregor> What changes have you made so far?
# [16:43] <annevk> I guess the major changes have been integrating mutation handling into concept-CD-replace, concept-node-insert, and concept-node-remove
# [16:43] <annevk> still have to do splitText
# [16:43] <annevk> I also renamed some concepts
# [16:43] <AryehGregor> Sounds great.
# [16:43] <AryehGregor> I'll take a look soon, maybe today.
# [16:44] <AryehGregor> jgraham, is there some way to suppress the "expected true got false" message? Sometimes it's useless and/or confusing.
# [16:45] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: How is it useless/confusing?
# [16:45] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, Body has extra attributes! Element node <body bgcolor="#00FFFF"> with 20 children expected 0 got 1
# [16:45] <AryehGregor> Or: Body has extra attributes! Element node <body bgcolor="#00FFFF"> with 20 children expected true got false
# [16:45] <AryehGregor> "Expected true got false" is almost always useless, if not confusing.
# [16:46] <AryehGregor> I want something like just: Body has extra attributes! <body bgcolor="#00FFFF">
# [16:46] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: How are you computing the value you call assertTrue with?
# [16:46] <AryehGregor> The "Element node" and "with 20 children" aren't the harness' fault, but "expected X got Y" is.
# [16:46] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, originally I did assert_equals(document.body.attributes.length, 0, ...).
# [16:47] <AryehGregor> Thus "expected 0 got 1".
# [16:47] <AryehGregor> But that's not helpful at all.
# [16:47] <zcorpan> why is it not helpful?
# [16:47] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I'd much rather know how many attributes it was finding.
# [16:47] <zewt> ... isn't that "1"?
# [16:47] <AryehGregor> What does it help? I already print the actual <body> element with the attributes.
# [16:47] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Just telling me that it doesn't have the expected value doesnt' help me.
# [16:48] <zewt> er, read lines backwards
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> Did you miss the part where it prints out '<body bgcolor="#00FFFF">'?
# [16:48] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Then I have to count them, if there are many.
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> Why should you care? There are supposed to be zero.
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# [16:48] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I didn't know that was what you got and not the input.
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> No, it was the erroneous output.
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# [16:48] <AryehGregor> It should be clear from context if you understand what the test is doing.
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> The point is, I'm writing the tests and I want to control the failure messages.
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> Often the expected/got thing is useful, but sometimes not.
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> "expected true got false" is almost never useful, in particular.
# [16:49] <zewt> if you only care about whether something matches what you expect, and not the particulars of the values, wouldn't you want (in most harnesses, don't know this one in particular) assert_true(length == 0, ...)?
# [16:49] * gsnedders would rather have the output from the harness, always
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> That produces "expected true got false".
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> zewt, ^^
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, I wouldn't object if it actually meant something in context. But it doesn't say what the *expressions* for the actual and expected values are.
# [16:50] <zewt> that's a separate issue than assert_equals showing it, though.
# [16:50] <gsnedders> Because then I don't have to dig through the test code to see if there's places I have to add extra debug code to work out why it fails that would be given by the normal output.
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> I'm just asking for some way to suppress it.
# [16:50] <zewt> does seem useless for assert_true/false, since it's never adding any new info
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, this is actively misleading: Body has extra attributes! Element node <body bgcolor="#00FFFF"> with 20 children expected 0 got 1
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> The context makes it seem like the number is related to the number of children.
# [16:51] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Then there should be some sort of comma or something. Just because it's unclear in the current form doesn't make the right solution be removing it entirely.
# [16:51] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, do you think "expected true got false" is ever useful?
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> When does that ever add any info at all?
# [16:52] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It tells me it's probably not a test with any simple-to-debug assertion.
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> Or maybe the assertion message can be written clearly enough that the harness output is sometimes superfluous?
# [16:54] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I'd only be happy with that if I could guarantee everyone writing tests wrote good testse.
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> If they don't, the expected/actual values won't help anyway, because you have no idea what they mean if they're just numbers or true/false.
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> You have to rely on the custom test message to tell you that no matter what.
# [16:58] <jgraham> It's not always "expected true, got false", it could, for example, be expected true, got ""
# [16:58] <AryehGregor> Okay, that's a good point.
# [16:58] <jgraham> But no, you can't customise
# [16:58] <jgraham> And it would be non-trivial to allow it
# [16:59] <jgraham> Well I guess you could add more parameters to every assert function
# [16:59] <gsnedders> (Of course, if assertTrue is called with something just with ===, then that can't happen, but if we're just doing that you shouldn't be using assertTrue)
# [16:59] <woef> "Tired developers use the word “non-trivial,” or some variation thereof, a lot more than energized developers."
# [16:59] <woef> ;)
# [16:59] <jgraham> I am tired
# [17:00] <gsnedders> Thankfully, jgraham isn't a developer.
# [17:00] <jgraham> I have been on the train for 6 hours
# [17:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: Leaving at 7am?
# [17:00] <jgraham> No, I'm not insane and tired
# [17:00] <jgraham> Just tired
# [17:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: So you had more than just one change? Or have the train times changed?
# [17:00] <jgraham> 2 changes
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# [17:01] <gsnedders> Why do I know those train times off the top of my head?
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# [17:02] <jgraham> Because you have done the journey before?
# [17:02] <gsnedders> Far too often.
# [17:02] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Anyway, I guess one could allow a format string or something to customize the assert message, but I don't think it is actually harmful to print them always
# [17:03] <jgraham> s/them/the full message/
# [17:03] <AryehGregor> jgraham, it's just distracting, but it's not a big deal.
# [17:03] <AryehGregor> Did you ever look at why my reflection tests are now not working in your harness?
# [17:03] <jgraham> No, I have been a bit swamped. But I am aware that I still have to do it. So I will!
# [17:06] <jgraham> (that wasn't a promise to do it right now, btw)
# [17:06] <jgraham> (but I am aware that it needs to be looked at. I expect this week sometime to be realistic)
# [17:08] <annevk> AryehGregor, I'm trying to read http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14035#c3
# [17:08] <annevk> AryehGregor, for the case where parent is null
# [17:08] <annevk> AryehGregor, what should range's start node be?
# [17:11] <annevk> guess it has to be oldNode
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# [17:17] <timeless> AryehGregor: grr, your /tmp/ thing hung my browser
# [17:17] <AryehGregor> timeless, what browser?
# [17:17] <AryehGregor> annevk, if oldNode is detached, then either both the range's start/end have to be oldNode, or neither can be. If neither is, then of course the range won't mutate when you splitText() it.
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# [17:21] <annevk> AryehGregor, for the second bullet point, does that have an implied start offset is smaller than offset in it?
# [17:21] <timeless> Nightly
# [17:21] <timeless> gsnedders: which trains are these?
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# [17:22] <AryehGregor> annevk, the four cases are steps in an algorithm being run in order. If the start offset was >= offset, you'd already have hit the first case, and the start/end node would no longer be old node.
# [17:22] <timeless> AryehGregor: afaict, you manage to hang the browser for 10s
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# [17:22] <timeless> without triggering a slow script dialog
# [17:22] <AryehGregor> This was relatively explicit in the original text.
# [17:22] <timeless> but in some cases you manage to trigger the OS <frozen app> feature
# [17:22] <AryehGregor> timeless, it's more like upwards of a minute for me.
# [17:22] <timeless> well err
# [17:22] <AryehGregor> Yeah, this kind of test stinks if you use a browser like Firefox that doesn't have process-per-tab.
# [17:23] <AryehGregor> Good thing I use Chrome for browsing and Firefox only for testing.
# [17:23] <timeless> could you try *not* hanging the browser for more than 3s at a time? :)
# [17:23] <annevk> AryehGregor, thanks AryehGregor
# [17:23] <AryehGregor> (this is one of the biggest reasons I use Chrome, in fact)
# [17:23] <AryehGregor> timeless, how do you suggest doing that?
# [17:23] <timeless> setTimeout? :)
# [17:23] <annevk> AryehGregor, fwiw, I'm splitting the four steps into two sets of two as the method returns after parent is null
# [17:23] <timeless> Time elapsed: 0:12.515 min.
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# [17:24] <timeless> so my math of 10s isn't too far off
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# [17:24] <timeless> 5393 Pass 2853 Fail
# [17:24] <timeless> are those numbers more or less correct?
# [17:24] <AryehGregor> Yes.
# [17:24] <AryehGregor> annevk, fine by me.
# [17:24] * bentruyman is now known as bentruywoman
# [17:24] <AryehGregor> timeless, half the tests should be almost sure to pass, because they're just setup/sanity checks at this point.
# [17:24] <timeless> fwiw your error message in that case sucks too
# [17:24] <timeless> assert_equals: Body element must have no attributes, but doesn't: <body bgcolor="#00FFFF"> expected 0 but got 1
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# [17:25] <AryehGregor> What's wrong with it?
# [17:25] <timeless> it should say:
# [17:25] <timeless> assert_equals: Body element must have no attributes (<body>), but instead it has: <body bgcolor="#00FFFF"> expected 0 but got 1
# [17:25] <timeless> has/is
# [17:26] <AryehGregor> I could change it, but I think it's clear enough.
# [17:26] * timeless really doesn't think it's clear enough
# [17:26] <timeless> `doesn't` is confusing
# [17:26] <timeless> compare:
# [17:26] <timeless> assert_equals: Wrapper div must have only one attribute (contenteditable=""), but has more: <div contenteditable="" style="background-color: rgb(0, 255, 255);"> expected 1 but got 2
# [17:27] * AryehGregor adjusts
# [17:27] <AryehGregor> Would "Body element must have no attributes, but has more: " be better?
# [17:27] <timeless> assert_true: Setup failed, cannot proceed expected true got false
# [17:27] <timeless> technically yes
# [17:28] <timeless> generally for short strings, having comparable strings is better than pure prose
# [17:28] <timeless> i can easily compare <body> and <body foo=bar>
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# [17:29] <timeless> anyway, the setup failed stuff is unfortuante\
# [17:29] <timeless> s/ant/nat/
# [17:29] <AryehGregor> timeless, okay, try now.
# [17:29] <timeless> it sounds like it expected setup to fail
# [17:30] <AryehGregor> What about it is unfortunate? I don't like the "expected true got false" part, but jgraham and gsnedders think it should stay.
# [17:30] <AryehGregor> It should be phrased as a requirement, like "Setup must pass if further tests are to proceed" or such?
# [17:30] <timeless> yeah it looks better
# [17:30] <timeless> AryehGregor: yes
# [17:31] <timeless> possibly "Setup must return true if ..."
# [17:31] <timeless> that works well with "expected true got false"
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# [17:31] <AryehGregor> I think the "expected true got false" thing is just useless and should go away.
# [17:31] <AryehGregor> But the harness doesn't allow it.
# [17:31] * timeless nods
# [17:31] <timeless> i'd side with you if it would make a difference
# [17:31] <AryehGregor> jgraham, ^^
# [17:31] <AryehGregor> How about: "Setup and sanity checks must pass for further tests to make sense"
# [17:31] <timeless> given that you've already tried that one, i'm just offering two suggestions for the rest
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> (with "expected true, but got false" added, of course)
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> Or maybe ". . . for further tests to be executed".
# [17:32] <timeless> that mostly works, one could s/pass/pass (return true)/
# [17:32] <timeless> `executed` and `make sense` are very different
# [17:32] <timeless> one implies the tests will not run
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> Except setup doesn't return true, the true/false thing is an artifact of the current test harness that I hope goes away sometime.
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> They won't.
# [17:32] <timeless> the other implies they will run and return garbage
# [17:33] <AryehGregor> "Setup and sanity checks must pass for further tests to be executed on this input"
# [17:33] <timeless> ok
# [17:34] <AryehGregor> Okay, how about now?
# [17:34] * timeless waits for browser to unfreeze irc client..
# [17:34] <timeless> grr
# [17:35] <timeless> does your web page break ctrl-home intentionally?
# [17:35] <timeless> (or is that just Nightly being silly?
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# [17:36] <AryehGregor> What does Ctrl-Home do?
# [17:36] <timeless> "take me to top of document" typically
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# [17:39] <AryehGregor> Doesn't Home do the same, if you aren't in something editable?
# [17:39] <timeless_xchat> and can you make your test not cause ie9 x64 to try to use >5gb of vm/2gb of ram?
# [17:39] <timeless_xchat> it's bad for my ears
# [17:39] <AryehGregor> I haven't tested much in IE yet.
# [17:40] <timeless_xchat> (computer is still spinning disk to deal w/ swap)
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# [17:40] * timeless_xchat waves goodbye to timeless
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# [17:41] <timeless_xchat> ... and i thought your denial of cpu cycles in Nightly was bad
# [17:41] <AryehGregor> It's not just a conformance test, it's a benchmark!
# [17:41] <AryehGregor> Kind of like loading HTML5.
# [17:41] <timeless_xchat> your denial of ram + any cycles due to memory exhaustion in ie is worse
# [17:42] <timeless_xchat> have you seen stress.html?
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# [17:42] <AryehGregor> Nope.
# [17:42] * timeless_xchat finally gets the irc dialog saying the session died
# [17:42] <zewt> one might argue that a browser letting a page chew so much memory as to affect the user's system is itself a problem :P
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# [17:43] <timeless_xchat> it's vaguely nsfw
# [17:43] <timeless_xchat> http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/stress.html
# [17:43] <timeless_xchat> historically it was not safe for unix boxes
# [17:43] <timeless_xchat> they tended to die
# [17:44] <AryehGregor> I've visited webpages that crashed X.
# [17:44] <timeless_xchat> (actually, to be fair it also triggered bluescreens)
# [17:44] <timeless_xchat> but the fbsd panic was more amusing
# [17:45] <timeless_xchat> it also has killed a bunch of phones ...
# [17:45] <timeless_xchat> zewt: one might
# [17:45] <timeless_xchat> but...
# [17:45] <timeless_xchat> consider that page
# [17:45] <timeless_xchat> what would you want to have happen?
# [17:46] <timeless_xchat> obviously having your os panic is less than ideal...
# [17:46] <timeless_xchat> and certainly having your window manager die or commit suicide isn't much better
# [17:47] <annevk> AryehGregor, shall I add you as editor of DOM4?
# [17:47] <AryehGregor> annevk, sure, go ahead.
# [17:49] <timeless_xchat> aryehgregor : one good thing about ie
# [17:49] <timeless_xchat> i can suspend the runaway process
# [17:50] <timeless_xchat> and i can still use the urlbar
# [17:50] <annevk> wait, AryehGregor, are you a member of the WebApps WG?
# [17:50] <AryehGregor> annevk, yes.
# [17:50] <AryehGregor> At least, last I checked.
# [17:50] <AryehGregor> Pretty sure I represent Google there.
# [17:50] <timeless_xchat> did you rejoin?
# [17:51] <AryehGregor> timeless_xchat, in Chrome you can just close the tab like regular if it goes haywire.
# [17:51] <AryehGregor> Rejoin?
# [17:51] <timeless_xchat> (did they recharter recently? )
# [17:51] <annevk> AryehGregor, okay
# [17:51] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42538&public=1&gs=1&;
# [17:51] <AryehGregor> Gregor, Aryeh
# [17:51] <AryehGregor> (good standing)
# [17:51] <AryehGregor> Google, Inc.
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# [17:52] <timeless_xchat> anyway, ctrl-home/ctrl-end work in ie
# [17:52] <timeless_xchat> i think for editing related systems, home/end on windows are linear
# [17:52] <timeless_xchat> and ctrl- changes them to document orientation
# [17:53] <AryehGregor> Basically, yeah.
# [17:53] <timeless_xchat> in things that aren't editing, both should behave the same
# [17:53] <AryehGregor> More precisely, it changes them to top/bottom instead of line-start/line-end.
# [17:53] <AryehGregor> Sounds right.
# [17:53] <timeless_xchat> well
# [17:53] <timeless_xchat> i don't know if windows supports any btt languages :)
# [17:54] <timeless_xchat> ok, ctrl- home/end work fine in Nightly on news.google.com
# [17:54] <timeless_xchat> so somehow your page breaks them
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# [17:57] <AryehGregor> Okay, I really need more RAM for this machine
# [17:57] <AryehGregor> .
# [17:57] <timeless_xchat> heh
# [17:57] <timeless_xchat> how much do you have?
# [17:57] <AryehGregor> 3G.
# [17:57] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: thanks for the piece of sanity regarding dom core vs dom3events
# [17:57] <AryehGregor> No, 4G.
# [17:57] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, any time.
# [17:59] <AryehGregor> Hmm, should I upgrade to 6G for $22 or 8G for $55?
# [18:00] <AryehGregor> I'll only be using this computer for a few more months, so I think I'll just buy another 2G. Should be fine.
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# [18:01] <zewt> ... has google's main search box been, uh, stupid for anyone else lately?
# [18:02] <zewt> several times i've moved the cursor (home, ctrl-left), started typing, and after 1-2 keystrokes the cursor jumps back to the end of the input, so whatever I'm typing gets split
# [18:02] <annevk> renamed to DOM4
# [18:02] <Philip`> I've had that several times (in Opera)
# [18:02] <zewt> (ff6)
# [18:02] <annevk> Ms2ger, should we rename domcore.js to dom.js etc.?
# [18:03] <Ms2ger> .html?
# [18:03] <zcorpan> annevk: why is node.contains(node) true? was it implemented that way?
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# [18:03] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, yes
# [18:03] <zcorpan> ok
# [18:03] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
# [18:03] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, a bug was filed on Gecko already
# [18:03] <Philip`> zewt: It seems like it's moving focus to the end of the input box on onload or something close to that
# [18:03] <annevk> Ms2ger, only effect will be required search/replace for spec=domcore to spec=dom
# [18:03] <zewt> seems like they've become very loose with the google search page ... extremely annoying, being probably the most used form on the internet
# [18:03] <Ms2ger> Oh
# [18:03] <Philip`> regardless of whether you've started typing already
# [18:04] <annevk> Ms2ger, no need to rename that html file
# [18:04] <annevk> shorter name for dom would be nice though
# [18:04] <Ms2ger> Just add an alias, don't care about the name of the file
# [18:04] <jgraham> timeless_xchat, AryehGregor: Verying the number of TCs depending on whether ome pass or fail is evil
# [18:04] <jgraham> *Varying
# [18:04] <zewt> also, many times it seems like it's ignoring form submission--i'll load the top-level search page, type something, hit enter, wait ... and nothing happens. heh
# [18:04] <jgraham> *some
# [18:04] <Philip`> Maybe their stats say it reduces the mean serch time by 0.05 seconds so it's worth the inconvenience for weird users, though
# [18:05] <AryehGregor> jgraham, that's why I'm not. I'm just having all subsequent ones fail automatically without doing anything.
# [18:05] <jgraham> That's fine
# [18:05] <Philip`> s/serch/search/
# [18:05] <jgraham> I probably didn't read the backscroll carefully enough
# [18:05] <zewt> it doesn't focus the search box by default, though
# [18:05] <jgraham> you all talk too much
# [18:05] <jgraham> ;)
# [18:05] <zewt> and it doesn't seem to modify the input-box-selected behavior, either
# [18:06] <zewt> Showing results for sdfsdf. Search instead for sdfdf.
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# [18:06] <zewt> that may be the best autocorrect i've ever seen
# [18:06] <oal> Hey, is it possible, or will it be possible to create "outside border radius" with css, like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Opera11favicon.png
# [18:06] <oal> So that corners are rounded outwards
# [18:07] <oal> Like in the bottom of the tabs in the screenshot
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# [18:08] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: ^
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# [18:19] <annevk> WebKit has Range.expand() AryehGregor
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> annevk, WebKit has loads of junk that they threw on Range and Selection.
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> Some might be worth taking, like modify(), but some is useless and they should remove it, like setBaseAndExtent().
# [18:20] <annevk> That's on Selection
# [18:20] <AryehGregor> Well, yes.
# [18:20] <AryehGregor> In that case.
# [18:20] <AryehGregor> Maybe they put less junk on Range, I didn't look closely.
# [18:20] <AryehGregor> But there's definitely stuff they should drop support for and that shouldn't be specced.
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# [18:21] <annevk> Only Range.expand() and constants for comparePoint are currently not in the specification
# [18:22] <annevk> Also the constants they have for comparePoint do not match the return values in the specification...
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# [18:28] <oal> This describes what I want to do if anyone's interested. http://orderedlist.com/blog/articles/flared-borders-with-css/
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# [18:31] <zcorpan> oal: it seems like a reasonable thing to be able to do without jumping through hoops. try sending an email to www-style
# [18:32] <oal> I'm not really much into mailing lists and stuff. Where is it?
# [18:33] <oal> Do I simply send an email to www-style@w3.org describing the issue?
# [18:33] <jgraham> Pretty much
# [18:34] <zewt> might be subscriber-only
# [18:34] <timeless_xchat> jgraham: i don't disagree wrt varying
# [18:34] <zcorpan> zewt: don't think it is
# [18:34] <timeless_xchat> but i was merely asking about meaning of text
# [18:35] <zcorpan> at least i recall having successfully sent emails to www-style without being subscribed
# [18:35] <timeless_xchat> implications are someone else's problem
# [18:35] <oal> How detailed should the mail be? I'll ask if that feature is planned, and show the opera screenshot and the link to the "hack"?
# [18:35] <timeless_xchat> aryehgregor : sounds like your message is wrong then, but i lost scrollback
# [18:35] <AryehGregor> timeless_xchat, which message?
# [18:36] <timeless_xchat> sorry, lunch
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# [18:42] <oal> Ok, mail sent to the mailing list ;)
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# [18:50] <smaug____> Why does http://mozilla.pettay.fi/moztests/nestedclick.html open only one tab in webkit and opera
# [18:50] <smaug____> it should open two, but apparently some page relies on it to open only one
# [18:54] <zewt> i don't think browsers should ever allow opening more than one tab or window in a single event
# [18:54] <zewt> just evil
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# [19:11] <Ms2ger> annevk5, hmm, doesn't Google get a link? :)
# [19:12] <smaug____> oh, hmm, webkit doesn't have click() in anchor elements
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# [19:17] <smaug____> ok, then question to someone from Opera. Why does http://mozilla.pettay.fi/moztests/nestedclick.html open only one tab
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# [19:23] <zcorpan> we prevent recursion in click()
# [19:23] <zcorpan> it's in the spec
# [19:23] <zcorpan> who from opera btw? :)
# [19:24] <zcorpan> oh, to someone from opera
# [19:24] * zcorpan read from someone from opera
# [19:25] <smaug____> zcorpan: nothing to do with recursion
# [19:25] <smaug____> gecko prevent recursion too
# [19:25] <smaug____> zcorpan: there is the click() and user initiated click to <a>
# [19:25] <smaug____> why opera handles only one
# [19:27] <zcorpan> ah, i see. not sure
# [19:27] <gsnedders> smaug____: We block script clicks on a elements, I think
# [19:27] <gsnedders> (But don't ask me, I'm on holiday.)
# [19:28] <zewt> (on non-cancelled clicks only, i'd imagine?)
# [19:28] <gsnedders> zewt: (see my previous line)
# [19:28] <zewt> (you're not the only one on irc)
# [19:28] <zewt> :P
# [19:29] <smaug____> gsnedders: clicking a click event manually to <a> does trigger the link in Opera
# [19:30] <gsnedders> My thought was wrong, then, obviously.
# [19:30] <zcorpan> is opera's behavior more web compatible or less web compatible?
# [19:31] <zewt> the only time i'd ever expect pages to both activate a link and open a window would be for ads anyway, heh
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# [19:36] <zcorpan> smaug____: i guess we set the "click in progress" flag to true for regular clicks
# [19:36] <smaug____> ah, that is perhaps it
# [19:36] <smaug____> not per spec, but that would explain the behavior
# [19:37] <smaug____> IE seems to have something similar
# [19:37] <zcorpan> maybe we should put it in the spec
# [19:37] <smaug____> right
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# [19:46] <timeless_xchat> heycam: any idea why marcos references you by First Last instead of F. Last in widgets-apis ?
# [19:47] <Ms2ger> annevk5, are we planning to publish at TR/dom?
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# [19:48] <zcorpan> timeless_xchat: does he use anolis?
# [19:50] * timeless_xchat shrugs
# [19:50] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Yes.
# [19:50] <zcorpan> that'd explain it
# [19:52] <Ms2ger> Why?
# [19:53] <Ms2ger> His references are literally in the source
# [19:54] <zcorpan> oh
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# [19:59] <Hixie> gah, i always need to test IE when I don't have it
# [20:00] <Hixie> i need to work out when IE fires readystatechange in the situation where a <script> is created in one task, then inserted into the document before the preload starts
# [20:00] <Ms2ger> Ask khuey in #developers ;)
# [20:01] <Hixie> i'll just test it in a few hours when I have access to IE
# [20:01] <Hixie> i'm not sure i'm sure what i want to test exactly
# [20:01] <zewt> carry a 64gb usb thumbdrive with a VM around with you :P
# [20:02] <Hixie> hmmmm maybe this doesn't matter so much actually
# [20:02] <Hixie> inserting an external script from script is never sync, right?
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# [20:08] <Hixie> ok i think the actual question i need an answer for is about what happens if after you create a script with a "src" attribute, you then change it before readystatechange fires
# [20:08] <Hixie> or what happens if you change it after it's fired...
# [20:08] <Hixie> man it's not surprising IE's behaviour here is inconsistent
# [20:09] <Hixie> so many edge cases
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# [20:09] <Hixie> cullenfluffyjenn: hey dude, sup
# [20:09] <cullenfluffyjenn> Hi - finally got back from vacation and trying to remember what all this stuff I am working on actually is.
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# [20:09] <Hixie> hah, same here
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# [20:16] <Hixie> bbiab
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# [20:18] <timeless> AryehGregor: your web page has a scary growth curve in ie9
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> timeless, which one, and what do you mean by growth curve?
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> Am I causing a memory leak?
# [20:18] <timeless> my guess is a leak and an infinite loop
# [20:18] <timeless> ooh
# [20:19] <timeless> Time elapsed: 1:11.259 min.
# [20:19] <timeless> it finished?
# [20:19] <timeless> Summary Found 3 tests 3 Fail
# [20:19] <timeless> it's only using 700mb of ram
# [20:19] <AryehGregor> Whee.
# [20:19] <AryehGregor> I'll look at that.
# [20:19] <AryehGregor> Haven't really tested in IE yet.
# [20:19] <timeless> this is after it was restarted once
# [20:19] <timeless> Fail [["delete",""],["inserttext","a"]] "<blockquote><font color=blue>[foo]</font></blockquote>" checks for modifications to non-editable content assert_equals: Setup and execCommand() must not throw an exception expected null but got object "Error: Invalid argument." Fail [["delete",""],["inserttext","a"]] "<blockquote><font color=blue>[foo]</font></blockquote>" compare innerHTML assert_equals: Setup and execCommand() must not throw a
# [20:20] <timeless> anyway, um
# [20:20] <timeless> if you could have a timer which checks to see if the system responds w/in say 3 mins
# [20:20] <timeless> if it doesn't, your page should stop testing
# [20:21] <timeless> and ask the user to set a new value and mark failed for everything past that point
# [20:21] <timeless> 3 mins = a way to detect if the system is paging to death
# [20:21] * timeless leaves
# [20:21] <AryehGregor> I wouldn't be surprised if it takes more than three minutes to run.
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# [20:33] * Ms2ger will be away from tomorrow until the 15th
# [20:33] * AryehGregor waves
# [20:34] <AryehGregor> Yikes, I really need more RAM here.
# [20:36] * zcorpan realizes that everything that's ever sent to public-html-announce is telecon minutes, which he couldn't care less about, and so unsubscribes
# [20:36] <AryehGregor> Summary
# [20:36] <AryehGregor> Found 57836 tests
# [20:36] <AryehGregor> There we go. This is starting to look something more like a typical test suite I'd write. :)
# [20:37] <zcorpan> you don't need more ram, you just need to spend a week profiling and optimizing
# [20:38] <AryehGregor> 406,936k memory used by the Chrome tab with the conformance tests open.
# [20:38] <Philip`> You should compress your RAM, so you can store twice as much in it
# [20:38] <AryehGregor> Philip`, recent Linux kernels can do that!
# [20:39] <Philip`> Even without any fancy technology, I guess you could set up a RAM disk then put a compressing filesystem on it then put a swap file on that
# [20:39] <AryehGregor> I'm not swapping, at least.
# [20:39] <AryehGregor> Hmm. The data.js for the tests is over a megabyte.
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# [20:40] <AryehGregor> I guess that's not a major contributor, though.
# [20:40] <AryehGregor> . . . I really should have bought 4G of RAM instead of 2G.
# [20:40] * AryehGregor checks if he can change the order
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# [20:43] <Philip`> Could you just order another 2GB?
# [20:43] <Philip`> or do you have insufficient sockets?
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# [20:45] <AryehGregor> Only one free DIMM.
# [20:46] <AryehGregor> It seems like I can cancel it, though. Just waiting for the confirmation that it went through before placing the new order.
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# [20:47] <AryehGregor> There we go, order changed.
# [20:47] * AryehGregor now begins to regret that he got only 8G of RAM for his new laptop
# [20:48] <rniwa> AryehGregor: you can always add more!
# [20:49] <Philip`> They should make external RAM with a USB connection
# [20:52] <jcranmer> . . .
# [20:52] <jcranmer> I really like having my memory bandwidth in 10's of MB/s
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# [20:53] <jcranmer> at that speed, you're really looking at a SSD
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# [21:18] <kennyluck> annevk5, is there a page for the list of features you mentioned in http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-September/033065.html ?
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# [21:21] <Ms2ger> kennyluck, most are in the spec source
# [21:21] <annevk> Ms2ger, I just copied what other specifications had for Google
# [21:21] <Ms2ger> K
# [21:21] <annevk> Ms2ger, feel free to change it
# [21:22] <annevk> as for /tr/dom/ seemed nice to me
# [21:22] <kennyluck> Ms2ger, thanks for the info.
# [21:23] <Ms2ger> WFM, but you'll probably need to bug staff about that
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# [21:25] <annevk> Ms2ger, yeah, when we publish
# [21:25] <Ms2ger> And if you're publishing next week, you get to do it :)
# [21:28] <annevk> I noticed you have some break thingie starting tomorrow
# [21:28] <annevk> Have fun
# [21:29] <Ms2ger> Ta
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# [21:33] <annevk> kennyluck, in the source of the spec?
# [21:35] <Hixie> good god IE is messed up
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# [21:36] <Ms2ger> Hixie, welcome to 2002 :)
# [21:37] <Hixie> for <script></script>, the end readyState is 'loading'
# [21:37] <Hixie> for <script>x</script>, the end readyState is 'complete'
# [21:37] <Hixie> for <script src="x"></script>, the end readyState is 'loaded'
# [21:38] <Hixie> also in IE the 'load' and 'readystatechange' events on script execution are async, not sync like in the spec or gecko
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# [21:40] <timeless> AryehGregor: it isn't about how long it takes to run
# [21:40] <timeless> it's about how late a timer fires
# [21:40] <Hixie> this is giving me a headache
# [21:40] <timeless> if you ask it to fire in 2minutes and it's a minute late, there's a problem
# [21:41] <timeless> basically, as long as you break your test into small pieces, and as long as your other timer can fire with limited latency relative to its expected firing deadline, things are ok
# [21:41] <timeless> but if you split things up and it doesn't fire close enough to on schedule, then it's probably paging to death
# [21:41] <AryehGregor> Could be.
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# [21:42] <kennyluck> annevk, I don't see path objects listed anywhere in the source of http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext/ (and http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ )
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# [21:42] * timeless needs to write a demo of that and get people to deploy it
# [21:44] <Philip`> kennyluck: I think it's a shared mental list, not one that's been written down explicitly
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# [21:47] <kennyluck> ok
# [21:50] <Ms2ger> $ grep v2 source | wc -l
# [21:50] <Ms2ger> 138
# [21:51] <TabAtkins> oal: You can do corners like that currently by properly styling and positioning ::before and ::after. It's an interesting idea to keep in mind for the border-radius-style property when we develop it, though
# [21:51] <Ms2ger>
# [21:52] <timeless> Ms2ger: you never have   ? :)
# [21:52] <timeless> Ms2ger: also, you might try `grep -c v2 source`
# [21:53] <Ms2ger> Pff
# [21:53] <zewt> sounds like an option added by someone who doesn't "get" unix
# [21:53] <zewt> "we need to combine TWO programs to do this?!"
# [21:53] <Ms2ger> Exactly
# [21:53] <timeless> zewt: yeah, it's a gnuism iirc :)
# [21:53] <Ms2ger> That's what pipes are for
# [21:53] <timeless> have you met busybox? :)
# [21:53] <zewt> might be useful for wildcard greps if it shows per-file
# [21:53] <Ms2ger> (-c is specified by POSIX.)
# [21:54] <Ms2ger> Says manpage
# [21:54] <Philip`> I think canvas in on like v7 now, not v2
# [21:54] <Philip`> *is on
# [21:54] <Ms2ger>
# [21:54] <Ms2ger>
# [21:54] <Ms2ger>
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# [22:00] <annevk> kennyluck, seems Path objects are not explicitly listed
# [22:01] <annevk> some path related stuff is
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# [22:06] <kennyluck> annevk, that matches what I figured.
# [22:08] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9236
# [22:09] <MikeSmith> baby steps
# [22:09] <Ms2ger> see diff given below
# [22:09] <Ms2ger> That's what stood out to me :)
# [22:10] <MikeSmith> heh
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# [22:17] <Hixie> heh
# [22:17] <Hixie> oops
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# [22:30] <AryehGregor> Ugh. This table takes two and a half minutes to lay out in Gecko.
# [22:31] <AryehGregor> It has 56,000ish rows, but still . . .
# [22:31] <AryehGregor> That's really excessive.
# [22:31] <AryehGregor> Chrome does much better.
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# [22:37] <TabAtkins> Gecko does a pretty decent job of doing things "right", which means quadratic behavior. I think we cheat more in Chrome.
# [22:37] <Ms2ger> Sounds like what Chrome would do
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# [22:37] <TabAtkins> Fucking cheaters.
# [22:38] <Ms2ger> Yeah, no kidding
# [22:38] <Ms2ger> If only we had Chrome people around...
# [22:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, too bad.
# [22:39] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, the table layout is fixed, I think.
# [22:39] * AryehGregor double-checks
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# [22:39] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Oh, then that *should* be relatively fast.
# [22:40] <TabAtkins> Not quadratic in the size of the table, at least.
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# [22:41] <AryehGregor> table-layout is fixed, yep.
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> File a bug on Firefox then, I guess.
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# [22:43] <oal> TabAtkins: Yes, it can be done, but I would definitely like to see it as a part of border-radius. :)
# [22:44] * hasathe__ is now known as hasather_
# [22:45] <TabAtkins> oal: Yeah, like I said, it sounds interesting. It has potentially interesting effects on geometry. I suppose it's supposed to have no geometric effect, so the elements can overlap more easily.
# [22:49] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, flexbox seems to be missing references
# [22:49] <TabAtkins> Oh yeah?
# [22:49] <Ms2ger> Oh, I guess it doesn't refer to any
# [22:49] <timeless_xchat> heh
# [22:49] <TabAtkins> Indeed. I need to make a pass through and decide what to reference.
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# [23:03] <annevk> http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/09/shocker-for-android-oems-google.html
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# [23:10] <AryehGregor> Android development has always been a sad story.
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> Too bad it can't be more like Chrome.
# [23:10] <AryehGregor> (ium)
# [23:11] <AryehGregor> Random entertaining link: http://i.imgur.com/mgf1i.png
# [23:11] <AryehGregor> Sad but so true.
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# [23:30] <paul_irish> <section hidden style="display:block;">What happens?</section>
# [23:30] <TabAtkins> It's visible and display:block.
# [23:31] <Philip`> The semantics police will arrest you
# [23:31] <paul_irish> its hidden's specificity essentially one less than an inline style?
# [23:31] <AryehGregor> There's just a UA rule [hidden] { display: none }.
# [23:31] <AryehGregor> Nothing special.
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> @hidden is implemented via a "[hidden] { display: none; }" rule in the UA stylesheet, basically.
# [23:31] <AryehGregor> Works the same as i { font-style: italic } or such.
# [23:31] <paul_irish> o right. dur
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> And UA rules are below author rules.
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# [23:32] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/C#hidden-elements
# [23:33] <TabAtkins> It's potentially a good idea to add "[hidden] { display: none !important; }" to your author stylesheet, to avoid accidentally overriding it.
# [23:33] <danbeam> TabAtkins: +1
# [23:33] <AryehGregor> Could we add !important to the UA stylesheet?
# [23:33] <AryehGregor> Then only !important author rules would override it, right?
# [23:33] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: UA !important rules dont' officially exist.
# [23:33] <Dashiva> But then how will you override it in your awesome application with a reason to show them?
# [23:33] <Philip`> Then we could add !veryimportant to the UA stylesheet
# [23:33] <TabAtkins> They are used, though, and they're above all other rules.
# [23:34] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
# [23:34] <paul_irish> i believe there was an !important UA style that was just lobbied to be removed successfully
# [23:34] <Dashiva> Philip`: No, !important-important
# [23:34] <AryehGregor> There are only user and author important declarations.
# [23:34] <AryehGregor> Not UA important.
# [23:34] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
# [23:34] <Philip`> !impooooortant gives you level-5 importancy
# [23:34] <danbeam> I interpretted "User agents should not render elements that have the hidden attribute specified." as not being overridable (easily)
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# [23:35] <danbeam> (or unintentionally with CSS)
# [23:35] <Dashiva> Maybe require a password
# [23:35] <danbeam> :|
# [23:35] <roc> I do hate the "!" syntax for important
# [23:35] <Dashiva> Agreed
# [23:38] <danbeam> very popular reset mechanisms will mess this up, btw, https://github.com/murtaugh/HTML5-Reset/blob/master/_/css/style.css#L25
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# [23:38] <danbeam> http://jsfiddle.net/danbeam/MrEjL/
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# [23:44] <Ms2ger> Well, reset style sheets just say "I think I know what I'm doing"
# [23:44] <Ms2ger> That's usually wrong, but people still use them
# [23:45] <Dashiva> Maybe we need to offer a better way
# [23:45] <Dashiva> <html -x-minimal-ua-stylesheet
# [23:46] <danbeam> I'm just going to try to add [hidden] { display: none !important; } to the resets, then
# [23:47] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: Maybe add ^^^ to HTML5 Boilerplate?
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# [23:48] <paul_irish> https://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/blob/master/css/style.css#L21
# [23:48] <paul_irish> just sans important
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# [23:48] <danbeam> paul_irish: that might make a big diff.
# [23:48] <paul_irish> especially as its at the top of the file and specificity means it'll lose.
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# [23:49] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: That'll be overriden by a ".foo { display:block; }".
# [23:49] <paul_irish> roger that.
# [23:49] <paul_irish> we'll do it right
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# [23:50] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, re "We'd need some way of serializing a DOM perfectly", maybe you can reuse the HTML parsing test stuff
# [23:50] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, it's possible. On the other hand, it might make more sense to just call normalize() in a few key places so everything really serializes as-is.
# [23:54] <Hixie> the specificity of the [hidden] thing is annoying, but on the other hand i've several times had need to implement [hidden] using something other than display:none
# [23:55] <paul_irish> we've been using the combo `display: none !important; visibility: hidden;` to successfully hide the content from screenreaders as well
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# Session Close: Thu Sep 08 00:00:00 2011

The end :)