/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-09-16 / end

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  6. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> Blech, compiz is chewing up my CPU.
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  17. # [00:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  18. # [00:17] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  19. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> I guess I have to start using my DVCSes like real DVCSes: save patches, wait for tests to finish running, amend with new expected values before committing.
  20. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> Otherwise I can't work on multiple things at once.
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  23. # [00:19] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: branches?
  24. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, guess so.
  25. # [00:19] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: commit/squash?
  26. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> "squash"?
  27. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> What does that do?
  28. # [00:21] <divya> combines many commits into one
  29. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> Interesting. Is that hg or git?
  30. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Ah, mq.
  31. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Should've guessed.
  32. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> I really wish I had a faster CPU with more cores.
  33. # [00:24] * AryehGregor kicks himself
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  86. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> Can anyone explain this crazytime behavior? http://jsfiddle.net/leaverou/TwgMY/
  87. # [03:06] <TabAtkins> It's exactly reproducible in webkit, ff, and opera.
  88. # [03:06] <jamesr> what's the problem?
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  90. # [03:07] <TabAtkins> If you set fillStyle to an rgba() value and draw into the canvas, then read the color of a drawn pixel back out, you get a slightly different value.
  91. # [03:07] <jamesr_> TabAtkins, premultiplied alpha baby
  92. # [03:07] <jamesr_> unpremultiplying is lossy
  93. # [03:07] <TabAtkins> Oh!
  94. # [03:07] <TabAtkins> That makes sense.
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  99. # [03:14] * Philip` would rather say that premultiplying is lossy
  100. # [03:14] <Philip`> since that's where components get quantised more coarsely
  101. # [03:15] <jcranmer> well, either way you lose values in the ulp
  102. # [03:17] <jamesr> Philip`: correct
  103. # [03:17] <jamesr> unpremultiplying is something that happens after data loss occurs, so it's inexact
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  130. # [05:37] <smaug____> has there been any discussion about Dart here? (and its evilness, and breaking the web etc.)
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  132. # [05:38] <TabAtkins> I'd be happy to talk with you about it tomorrow morning.
  133. # [05:38] * TabAtkins is going home now.
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  184. # [09:18] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  185. # [09:18] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  195. # [10:19] <annevk> MikeSmith, you around?
  196. # [10:19] <annevk> or maybe shepazu?
  197. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> I'm here
  198. # [10:19] <annevk> I wonder whether I can get http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url
  199. # [10:20] <annevk> I'll move abarth's Google Docs work there and hopefully inspire him to do some more work on it, but this time in HTML
  200. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> I can set it up now
  201. # [10:20] <annevk> And as something we can publish down the line. Sweet!
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  203. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> I notice we already have http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/URLAPI/
  204. # [10:23] <annevk> ah okay
  205. # [10:23] <annevk> do I have access rights to that?
  206. # [10:23] <annevk> and can we maybe lowercase it?
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  211. # [10:34] <annevk> Is :nth-match() really something people need a lot?
  212. # [10:34] <annevk> Seems like feature creep to me...
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  215. # [10:39] <annevk> MikeSmith, still there?
  216. # [10:40] <annevk> oh you created url I see
  217. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> yup
  218. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> and I just tested pushing a change to it and it worked
  219. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> so should work for you as well
  220. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> ACLs on it are set so that anybody who's a member of the WebApps WG can write to it
  221. # [10:41] <annevk> sweet
  222. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> I added a README file
  223. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> feel free to delete it
  224. # [10:42] <annevk> add one to your beers anne owes me counter :p
  225. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> heh
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  234. #
  235. # Session Start: Fri Sep 16 11:09:40 2011
  236. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  240. # [11:30] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  241. # [11:30] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  248. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> great, I just got a notification from Google saying that I can use "Michael(tm) Smith" as my name in Google+
  249. # [11:59] <espadrine> MikeSmith: I am +1-ing that in my mind right now.
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  255. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> and now the UI is not letting me even edit it
  256. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> wonderful
  257. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> anyway, what I plan to do is to remove the (tm) and then just add it back again later
  258. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> "We understand that Google+ and its Names Policy may not be for everyone at this time."
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  262. # [12:15] <annevk> boom
  263. # [12:15] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  264. # [12:15] <annevk> I sort of think that specification should not just define the API, but also URLs in general...
  265. # [12:15] <annevk> I wonder if I can convince abarth of that
  266. # [12:16] <annevk> I mean everywhere else we have the model / syntax / API in one specification
  267. # [12:18] <zcorpan> annevk: why is the title "Progress Events"?
  268. # [12:21] <annevk> oops
  269. # [12:22] <annevk> copy pasta
  270. # [12:23] <annevk> fixed
  271. # [12:23] <annevk> guess I might clean it up a bit more at some point if abarth does not beat me to it
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  273. # [12:26] <hasather> annevk: not sure I like the name "filename" since it's not necessarily a filename
  274. # [12:28] <annevk> I'm not the editor
  275. # [12:28] <annevk> email public-webapps
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  297. # [13:40] <Ms2ger> annevk, right, I've dropped document.innerHTML for now; can add it back if there's interest
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  315. # [14:09] <Ms2ger> # [14:30] <annevk> whoa, AryehGregor has made some crazy cool tests < Truth
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  338. # [15:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: firefox's console says live dom viewer uses a few deprecated DOM features (like getAttributeNode)
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  346. # [15:43] <zcorpan> annevk: hmm. http://www.google.com/codesearch#search/&q=hasFeature%5Cs*%5C(%5B%5E,%5D%2B,%5Cs*null%5Cs*%5C)&type=cs
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  348. # [15:44] <zcorpan> annevk: maybe we need to change that one back
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  355. # [15:53] <annevk> zcorpan, I see
  356. # [15:54] <annevk> Ms2ger, can I get access to Parsing and Serialization?
  357. # [15:54] <Ms2ger> Sure
  358. # [15:54] <annevk> Ms2ger, XMLHttpRequest relies on dom-innerHTML working for Document
  359. # [15:54] <Ms2ger> Oh, really?
  360. # [15:55] <annevk> See send()
  361. # [15:57] <annevk> Ms2ger, thanks, pushed my changesets
  362. # [15:58] <zcorpan> filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14184
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  364. # [15:59] <annevk> thanks zcorpan
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  388. # [16:42] <annevk> Ms2ger, why does .hgtags only list two drafts?
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  391. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> I was wondering that too
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  402. # [17:11] <annevk> seems Native Client is out of the box
  403. # [17:12] <annevk> or should I say, ActiveG
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  406. # [17:15] <jgraham> ?
  407. # [17:19] <annevk> a stable Chrome came out
  408. # [17:19] <annevk> http://chrome.blogspot.com/2011/09/new-stable-release-of-chrome-expanding.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FEgta+%28Google+Chrome+Blog%29
  409. # [17:19] <annevk> euh
  410. # [17:19] <annevk> http://chrome.blogspot.com/2011/09/new-stable-release-of-chrome-expanding.html
  411. # [17:19] <annevk> what is it with all this URL cruft these days
  412. # [17:19] <annevk> did people stop caring?
  413. # [17:21] <Philip`> Yay, now I can experience web applications that fail because they don't support my CPU
  414. # [17:21] <Ms2ger> Yet another reason to use Chrome
  415. # [17:21] <jgraham> As I non-chrome-user I can not experience web applications that fail because they don't support my CPU
  416. # [17:22] <jgraham> Is it possible to die of Google-demo starvation?
  417. # [17:22] <jgraham> If not I think I'll be OK
  418. # [17:23] * Philip` wonders whether NaCl applications can rely on SSE/SSE2/etc instructions
  419. # [17:24] <Philip`> (If not then that sounds bad for performance which is basically the only point of NaCl; if so then it sounds bad for portability which is a significant point of the web)
  420. # [17:25] * Philip` would like to rely on SSE2 for offline applications but collected some stats like http://zaynar.co.uk/0ad-pub/cpucaps.html and found that 1% of the application's users still don't support it 10 years after it was introduced :-(
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  423. # [17:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: (No JS JIT in any shipped browser works on x86 without SSE2)
  424. # [17:36] <gsnedders> (But you probably knew that already)
  425. # [17:37] <Philip`> (SpiderMonkey's does)
  426. # [17:38] <Philip`> (at least as of some months ago)
  427. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Does it use x87 or just do all fp through C++?
  428. # [17:39] <Philip`> (and anyway you can run JS without a JIT, whereas you can't run NaCl without hardware support for whatever instructions the application uses)
  429. # [17:39] <Philip`> It uses x87
  430. # [17:39] <jcranmer> shame
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  432. # [17:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: But their regexp JIT won't, because the JSC stuff definitely doesn't support x87.
  433. # [17:41] * Philip` knows since he encountered x87 JIT bugs in it a while ago
  434. # [17:41] <gsnedders> (Not that I can think of any reason for regexp to use floats at all)
  435. # [17:42] <Ms2ger> Well, we don't care about JITting regexps, so that's fine
  436. # [17:42] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: How so?
  437. # [17:42] <Philip`> Surely it'd be a better use of engineering effort to just hard-code the regexps that benchmarks use
  438. # [17:43] <gsnedders> (We have x87 support, though never shipped as it's a bit too buggy and fixing those bugs has never really been a priority. We also have support for JIT with no FPU.)
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  440. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> Opera is weird like that :)
  441. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: What? Not bug-fixing it? Or the no-FPU support?
  442. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Supporting obscure platforms
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  444. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Eh, still plenty of TVs and the like which have no FPU.
  445. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Exactly
  446. # [17:46] <jcranmer> many ARM procs don't have an FPU
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  448. # [17:47] <gsnedders> jcranmer: ARM not so much nowadays, MIPS on the other hand…
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  454. # [17:56] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Also, e.g., the HTC Wilffire doesn't have VFP.
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  456. # [17:57] <gsnedders> jcranmer: So there are some fairly popular devices without a FPU.
  457. # [18:00] <zewt> keep those crappy devices from having a usable browser, so they become less popular :P
  458. # [18:03] <gsnedders> zewt: The default WebKit-based browser has JIT, I'm fairly certain.
  459. # [18:03] <gsnedders> (wait, it's V8, it must have JIT)
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  472. # [18:29] <annevk> omg the Chuck Testa meme
  473. # [18:29] <annevk> Aslan returns http://i.imgur.com/eaGWI.jpg
  474. # [18:30] <annevk> original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJP1DphOWPs
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  482. # [18:44] <annevk> haha
  483. # [18:44] <annevk> http://www.ojaitaxidermy.com/
  484. # [18:45] <annevk> stuff like this why the web needs to be preserved
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  489. # [18:59] <miketaylr> that video is priceless
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  494. # [19:11] * AryehGregor finally figures out that the only decent solution to his problem is just to run gnome-panel as a taskbar in Unity too
  495. # [19:11] * AryehGregor is more or less happy now
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  498. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> Hope no one pinged me when I couldn't tell.
  499. # [19:12] <zewt> as a choice of name it shows particularly ... questionable judgement. heh
  500. # [19:12] <zewt> there are only 290 things called "unity"
  501. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> It baffles me how they think that not allowing you to see the window names anywhere when switching windows makes any sense at all.
  502. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> I only have two or three terminals open, usually, but how the heck am I supposed to tell them apart from little pictures when I hit Alt-Tab? They're terminals, they look the same.
  503. # [19:13] <zewt> i don't know anything about it, but my first impression from their screenshot is: a column of meaningless icons, which is Novice UI Failure #1
  504. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> And they're fullscreen, so just bringing them all to the foreground doesn't help.
  505. # [19:14] <AryehGregor> This is not even talking about my 21 XChat windows.
  506. # [19:14] <zewt> win7 has a dumb popover thing that shows thumbnail screenshots when you hover over grouped taskbar items--it's utterly worthless, you can't distinguish application windows from a thumbnail
  507. # [19:14] <AryehGregor> No, the UI I actually like a lot. There are just one or two really annoying flaws.
  508. # [19:14] <AryehGregor> Well, sometimes you can. Websites you often can, for instance, if there are only a few.
  509. # [19:14] <AryehGregor> Terminals or IRC chats, not so much.
  510. # [19:14] <zewt> "you have 5 notepads open, here are five thumbnails with white boxes and blurry unreadable text, which one do you want"
  511. # [19:15] <zewt> even distinguishing browser windows doesn't work very well; you have to actually *look* at the thumbnail and puzzle out what it is, since it'll look different every time (which browser tab is active, where you're scrolled on the page)
  512. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Also, the sidebar thing is buggy when I have two monitors and it's on the left side of the right monitor.
  513. # [19:15] <zewt> even icons are better than that, since at least you can learn what the icons are and select them without too much though
  514. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Yeah, thumbnails are way less helpful than names.
  515. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> It would help if hitting the Windows key on my keyboard actually did what it was supposed t odo.
  516. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> to do.
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  519. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> On the plus side, nouveau's experimental 3D acceleration seems to work fine for me.
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  524. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> annevk, so should HTMLElement.style be defined in CSSOM or HTML?
  525. # [19:42] <shepazu> TabAtkins, :)
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  550. # [20:14] <annevk> Ms2ger, prolly CSSOM
  551. # [20:14] <annevk> Ms2ger, but I need to find time to do CSSOM work so for now don't bother I guess
  552. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> Want a patch?
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  557. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> What license are the HTML WG tests under?
  558. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see.
  559. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Submission/
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  568. # [20:34] <annevk> Ms2ger, feel free to commit directly
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  570. # [20:43] <annevk> but tell me about it if you do
  571. # [20:43] <annevk> cvs conflicts are the worst
  572. # [20:45] <Ms2ger> Looks like I'd need Bert to give me access
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  586. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> I hate fontSize argh argh argh stab.
  587. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> Why couldn't fonts on the web have just used pt to start with as the standard unit and saved us all this pain?
  588. # [21:26] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Quit: leaving)
  589. # [21:26] <aho> i prefer px
  590. # [21:26] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Because that would've meant knowing the dpi of every monitor?
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  592. # [21:26] <jarek> AryehGregor: how would you define 1pt?
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  594. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, no, it would have meant making pt a fake unit that doesn't really mean pt except for printing, which is what happened in real life anyway.
  595. # [21:27] <jarek> AryehGregor: this unit makes no sense on screen
  596. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> jarek, for printing, as expected. For screens, make something up.
  597. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Sure it does, properly defined.
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  600. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> It's currently defined by CSS as some fixed multiple of a px.
  601. # [21:27] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Then "pt" as you've described it isn't the standard unit, it's another unit with the same name.
  602. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Which is in turn defined as "you know, whatever you think makes sense for your monitor".
  603. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, correct.
  604. # [21:27] <jarek> AryehGregor: if you had assumed that 1pt = 1px then there would be no point in having pt unit at all :P
  605. # [21:28] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Then what have you gained by using the standard unit?
  606. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> More specifically, I'm aggrieved that the editing command fontSize uses old-school values of 1-7 instead of sane values.
  607. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, it's familiar. And it will indeed be used as the standard unit for printing.
  608. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Users know how big 10pt text is.
  609. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Because it's what word processors use.
  610. # [21:29] <aho> i have absolutely no idea how big 10pt is :)
  611. # [21:29] <aho> pt = moonspeak
  612. # [21:29] <gsnedders> aho: Yeah, but that's what happens when you get a degree in music.
  613. # [21:30] * gsnedders facepalms
  614. # [21:30] <astearns> 10pt is 0p10 picas. duh
  615. # [21:30] * gsnedders mixes up aho and ato again
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  617. # [21:31] <jarek> on screen 10pt could be anything (depending on which browser you use)
  618. # [21:31] <jarek> afair Firefox and Chrome use different functions for converting pt to px
  619. # [21:32] <jarek> shouldn't this be standarised by CSS?
  620. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> It is.
  621. # [21:32] <astearns> gsnedders: what's wrong with knowing what dpi you're drawing in?
  622. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> I think it's 1pt = 1.2px or something.
  623. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> It was decided a year or two ago, IIRC.
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  625. # [21:33] <astearns> it's standardized for "normal" dpi, but allowed to be different for abnormal dpi
  626. # [21:33] <gsnedders> astearns: Ten years ago it wasn't massively easy to find out, AFAIK
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  628. # [21:34] <gsnedders> astearns: It's allowed to be different? I thought it was defined to be a number of CSS pixels, though the relation between CSS pixels and device pixels is undefined.
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  631. # [21:34] * astearns digs for the reference
  632. # [21:34] <aho> speaking of which, i'd like to see media queries for sub pixel order & orientation :>
  633. # [21:34] * gsnedders would be he's half-dead with a fever
  634. # [21:35] <aho> for subpixel rendered icons haha
  635. # [21:35] <astearns> the CSS reference pixel is defined as 96 dpi, and all the other length units (points, inches, mm) are defined by the reference pixel
  636. # [21:35] <astearns> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#length-units
  637. # [21:36] <astearns> so making something 1 inch tall is also dependent on monitor resolution
  638. # [21:37] <astearns> if you're not at 96 dpi you can choose what number of device pixels best approximates the reference pixel
  639. # [21:37] <aho> px: pixel units — 1px is equal to 0.75pt
  640. # [21:37] <aho> ah... there it is
  641. # [21:37] <jarek> "The reference pixel is the visual angle of one pixel on a device with a pixel density of 96dpi and a distance from the reader of an arm's length. For a nominal arm's length of 28 inches, the visual angle is therefore about 0.0213 degrees. For reading at arm's length, 1px thus corresponds to about 0.26 mm (1/96 inch)."
  642. # [21:38] <jarek> I don't get it :/
  643. # [21:39] <astearns> I understand why things were defined this way (for backwards compatibility) but making 1 inch not equal 1 inch is bad
  644. # [21:40] <astearns> jarek: it's a complicated way of saying "everyone's been assuming 96 dpi, so we're stuck with it"
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  646. # [21:41] <jarek> btw, why rem unit is defined to be relative to the font size of top level element?
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  648. # [21:42] <jarek> 99% of the websites specify base font size on body element, not on html element
  649. # [21:43] <jarek> no... actually this makes sense as SVG has no body element
  650. # [21:43] <aho> html doesn't necessarily have a body element
  651. # [21:44] <aho> or a head element for that matter
  652. # [21:44] <aho> going with the root node is the best bet
  653. # [21:46] <jarek> so specyfing font-size on body element is a bad practice, right?
  654. # [21:46] <jarek> it obviously makes rem unit useless
  655. # [21:46] <aho> rem is currently only supported in firefox, isn't it?
  656. # [21:47] <jarek> or is specyfing *any* base font size a bad practice?
  657. # [21:47] <aho> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/length
  658. # [21:47] <aho> so... rem does have some support these days
  659. # [21:48] <jarek> aho: it works on Chrome 14, though I haven't checked if it's accurate
  660. # [21:48] <aho> oh. ie9 also supports ch. nice :)
  661. # [21:49] <aho> <jarek> or is specyfing *any* base font size a bad practice? <- well, it's normalization. if everything needs to be as uniform as possible across different browsers, it's a thing you should do
  662. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> HTML will always have a <body> in the DOM if it was created by text/html.
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  690. # [22:49] <scheib> Newbie question: I'm working on an API that will have a new event. It will be hookable via addEventListener("foo"). Should an implementation also support the older style of element.onfoo?
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  695. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> scheib, this is for a spec?
  696. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> Generally we do support .onfoo for new events, AFAIK.
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  700. # [22:57] <scheib> Well, the spec in question in "Mouse Lock", where I have not yet called out the 'onfoo' form of events specifically, but curious if I should and under what condition. http://goo.gl/9G8pd
  701. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Ah, okay.
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  760. # Session Close: Sat Sep 17 00:00:00 2011

The end :)