/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-20 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Oct 20 00:00:01 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <Hixie> annevk5: is a concept-event different than an Event? they seem to be treated as equivalent in DOM Core
# [00:11] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish_
# [00:13] <Hixie> anyone know if i'm just mistesting this again or whether it's possible for opera to return non-null for input.selectedOption?
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# [00:17] <Hixie> ok i'll just drop it
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# [01:40] <Hixie> what's an example of a url that can't be parsed even given the parsing rules in html?
# [01:41] <Hixie> "::"?
# [01:42] <Hixie> no, browsers parse that...
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# [02:06] <zewt> going in circles with joao and not sure why
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# [02:36] <jarek> Hi
# [02:36] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, concept-event is the preferred way of talking about Event or something that inherits from it
# [02:36] <jarek> in CSS2.1 spec, why A is defined like this:
# [02:36] <jarek> A a|\\0{0,4}(41|61)(\r\n|[ \t\r\n\f])?
# [02:36] <jarek> while Z is defined like this:
# [02:36] <jarek> Z z|\\0{0,4}(5a|7a)(\r\n|[ \t\r\n\f])?|\\z
# [02:37] <jarek> the difference is the last part, why '\\z' should be treated as Z but '\\a' might not be treated as A?
# [02:40] <jarek> 124\\cm is a valid LENGTH token, while 124c\\m is not?
# [02:40] <Hixie> annevk: ah, because of the inheritance, ok
# [02:40] <Hixie> annevk: it would be helpful imho if the dom core spec said that somewhere
# [02:40] <Hixie> annevk: i thought they were different (the way "text track" and "TextTrack" are different)
# [02:43] <annevk> oh, "text track" being the concept and "TextTrack" exposing it?
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# [02:43] <annevk> I guess it's pretty similar, but I'll make a clarification
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# [02:50] <Hixie> gah
# [02:51] <Hixie> the semantic web guys have a way of thinking that is so utterly foreign to me it's mind blowing
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# [03:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: something in particular you reading at the moment?
# [03:02] <MikeSmith> bug report?
# [03:03] <annevk> I guess for http://html5.org/r/6707 the pedant way would currently be /event listeners/ whose /capture/ variable is false
# [03:04] <annevk> we should probably make it a "capture flag" given that it's a boolean, but that would actually make defining it more verbose
# [03:04] <annevk> Hixie, fwiw, "DOM Range" is gone and part of DOM4 now
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# [03:06] <jarek> I have done some testing and it turns out that chars from 'a' to 'f' might not be escaped with '\' in CSS
# [03:06] <jarek> why is it so?
# [03:07] <annevk> because \ is also used for Unicode character escapes
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# [03:10] <jarek> is it allowed to have Unicode character escapes *anywhere* in the stylesheets?
# [03:10] <annevk> pretty much
# [03:10] <jarek> I thought those were allowed only inside strings
# [03:11] <annevk> no CSS is crazy
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# [03:11] <annevk> they did not go with simplest syntax possible
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# [03:11] <jarek> that's going to complicate tokenizer implementation :/
# [03:11] <annevk> oh yes
# [03:11] <annevk> that's why at-rules are defined as @{N}{A}{M} etc.
# [03:12] <annevk> each of those characters can be escaped
# [03:12] <annevk> why?
# [03:12] <annevk> because crazy
# [03:12] <jarek> I think I have an idea
# [03:12] <jarek> I will run the stylesheet through a processor that converts all escapes into regular signs before tokenization
# [03:13] <jarek> it's also lame that comments are allowed everywhere, even between '!' and 'important'
# [03:13] <jarek> what was the point of that?
# [03:14] <jarek> is something like '! /* this is important flag*/ !important' really needed?
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# [03:24] <annevk> even -/**/2em
# [03:24] <annevk> there is no point
# [03:24] <annevk> it's just how that tokenizer language works to some extent I believe
# [03:25] <annevk> I think we can still get away with making it much much simpler, but nobody is really interested in it I guess
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# [04:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the task force
# [04:02] <MikeSmith> ah
# [04:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: jeni dragged me into some thread about multiple types
# [04:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: so i asked what the use case was
# [04:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: and basically the answer was "hope"
# [04:03] <MikeSmith> I see
# [04:03] <MikeSmith> I think somebody filed a spec bug about that yesterday
# [04:03] <Hixie> "we're publishing data because we hope one day it'll be used, and we need multiple types because we're trying to use as many types as possible"
# [04:03] <annevk> Hixie, you want a bug on removing DOMRANGE?
# [04:03] <Hixie> annevk: send mail
# [04:03] <Hixie> annevk: trying to get bugs to zero so i can get back to mail, i'm way behind on mail :-)
# [04:04] <Hixie> course this means that right now if you file a bug it'll get done faster :-)
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# [04:06] <annevk> it's not like removing an obsolete reference is high priority :)
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# [04:06] <Hixie> :-)
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# [04:24] <annevk> god
# [04:24] <annevk> sometimes I wonder why I even bother trying to get people their API design correct
# [04:24] <zewt> fighting the fight
# [04:24] <annevk> and at the same time take a lot of flack for not having constructors in the DOM
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# [04:26] <annevk> there's this urge in people that says "you know, I know better than all these other guys, lets do the API this way" and many web developer kittens die
# [04:26] <zewt> heh, i prefer python's design--there are no constructors and everything's just a factory
# [04:26] <annevk> but this person does not think about the kittens
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# [04:26] <annevk> only about his own sense of style
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# [04:26] <annevk> this was not about the constructors btw, I think we should have more of them
# [04:27] <annevk> this was about having constants for strings, which are intrinsically meaningful
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# [04:27] <annevk> oh, I know how to solve this, remove string constants from IDL
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# [06:07] <TabAtkins_> Does anyone know off the top of their head what spec box-sizing appears in?
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# [06:09] <jarek> TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#box-sizing0
# [06:09] <jarek> TabAtkins: I use this site for finding where the properties come from: http://meiert.com/en/indices/css-properties/
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# [07:13] <annevk> I wonder if the people talking about querySelector realize that you cannot simply substring on ":scope"
# [07:14] <annevk> Still seems like a bad idea to me to design it in a way that does not look at the entire tree
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# [07:23] <annevk> If A inherits from B, B is a ??? of A
# [07:23] <annevk> (with respect to interfaces)
# [07:26] <annevk> oh well, went with verbosity instead
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# [07:29] <Hixie> B is a superclass
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# [07:29] <Hixie> or I guess superinterface, if A and B are interfaces?
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# [07:42] <annevk> "I can't believe the politics involved in the OWL for JSON mailing list." didn't know there was such a thing
# [07:42] <annevk> guess I don't want to know more
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# [08:06] <annevk> Hixie, btw, given the arguments in the Web Intents thread, Microdata really should use simple string identifiers as well...
# [08:07] <annevk> too late now I guess
# [08:07] <Hixie> simple string identifiers for what?
# [08:07] <annevk> instead of "http://schema.org/Blog" we should just have "blog"
# [08:08] <annevk> and if Example wants his own blog, they could have "example-blog" or some such
# [08:09] <annevk> because in the end, only a few vocabularies will be supported
# [08:09] <Hixie> well we can still do that i guess
# [08:09] <Hixie> since while the syntax says they're urls, they aren't resolved and they are treated as opaque
# [08:09] <Hixie> the API currently drops non-URL values
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# [08:10] <Hixie> still, i don't think it's a big deal
# [08:10] <Hixie> the microdata feature is explicitly intended to be used for lots of vocabs
# [08:11] <annevk> I guess, but simple strings scale too, or simple strings with a prefix
# [08:12] <annevk> but then I have a hard time seeing a lot of people taking the effort to use all this additional markup so I don't really feel that strongly about making it simple
# [08:13] <Hixie> yeah, we could have gone with the rel="" approach as well
# [08:13] * Hixie shrugs
# [08:13] <Hixie> best to let it be
# [08:14] <annevk> i guess if in like 5 years only schema.org is adopted we can just alias what they have and make it simple for the masses
# [08:14] <annevk> experiment a bit more first
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# [09:32] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14516 I wish the IETF held to the same values
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# [09:46] <annevk> Well, per my non-scientific twitter survey, it seems web developers would like markup literals
# [09:46] <annevk> The only negative responses thus far were from Arve (says it might break text editors) and glazou (no reason given)
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# [09:51] <krijn> E4X!
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# [09:55] <frank_salim> annevk: is that something people are asking for?
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# [09:58] <jacobolus> annevk: the thing I don't like is that people will try to copy/paste stuff around, and there are all kinds of edge cases that will break
# [09:59] <jacobolus> and the result will be confusion
# [09:59] <jacobolus> things that are conceptually strings should have some delimiters :)
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# [10:01] <annevk> they are not conceptually strings
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# [10:02] <jgraham> annevk: It's not really clear to me that using strings instead of constants is better btw. Apart from the feature detection issue, constants work better with IDEs for autocompletion
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# [10:03] <annevk> jgraham, so you would prefer people type responseType = XMLHttpRequest.RESPONSE_JSON rather than responseType = "json"
# [10:03] <jgraham> annevk: People who use IDEs might prefer the latter certainly
# [10:03] <annevk> I find the IDE argument not really compelling
# [10:03] <jgraham> er former
# [10:04] <jgraham> Any particular reason?
# [10:04] <zcorpan> we *could* have both (making the constant return a string)
# [10:04] <annevk> it makes the code a whole lot harder to read; the only benefit seems to be that it makes it easier to integrate it with existing tools
# [10:04] <annevk> zcorpan, it would return a string
# [10:05] <jgraham> I don't think it is harder to read
# [10:05] <annevk> o_O
# [10:05] <jgraham> It is a bit ugly
# [10:05] <jgraham> But totally comprehensible
# [10:05] <annevk> it's extremely ugly and verbose
# [10:05] <zcorpan> you could write x.responseType = x.RESPONSE_JSON also
# [10:06] <jgraham> In the average js library this is a molecule in a drop in the ocean in terms of the difficulty of understanding what the code does
# [10:06] <annevk> zcorpan, doesn't really make a difference
# [10:06] <annevk> jgraham, if it's in a library there's even less need for constants
# [10:06] <zcorpan> annevk: makes it a bit shorter and less ugly
# [10:06] <annevk> jgraham, because you'd just do requestJson(url) or some such
# [10:07] <jgraham> annevk: By "library" I just meant "body of code"
# [10:08] <annevk> jgraham, it seems people developing large libraries care a lot about brevity still
# [10:08] <annevk> jgraham, ask e.g. Alex Russell
# [10:08] <jgraham> (it is also quite nice to have clear rules about case; everyone knows that constants are always uppercase whereas JSON could be spelt "json" or "JSON" and so could "2d" vs "3D")
# [10:08] <annevk> anyway if you feel like making a case for constants go ahead :)
# [10:09] <jgraham> annevk: Alex Russel seems to be about 50% troll so I have difficulty taking him seriously
# [10:09] <jgraham> *russell
# [10:10] <annevk> I always have the feeling you are about 50% or more against every idea mentioned; still try to take you seriously though :)
# [10:10] <jgraham> Heh
# [10:10] <jgraham> I'm not sure that's true
# [10:11] <jgraham> Although about 50% of the things that I thought were really good ideas turned out to not be :)
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# [10:30] <annevk> Hixie, is there some construct for tasks to have conditions?
# [10:31] <annevk> Hixie, like do this task unless something got cancelled along the way?
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# [10:34] <annevk> It's funny though how people suddenly jump up to support string constants while there was never a single suggestion for them for either the <canvas> API or XMLHttpRequest
# [10:35] <annevk> This is the reason asking forgiveness is so much better
# [10:35] <jgraham> I find the canvas thing moderately annoying
# [10:35] <jgraham> and don't follow XHR much
# [10:35] <jgraham> So my experience suggests that no-constants doesn't work that well
# [10:36] <annevk> You use an IDE?
# [10:36] <jgraham> Nope
# [10:36] <jgraham> But it really took me a while to remember whether it should be "2d" or "2D"
# [10:37] <annevk> Oh that string
# [10:37] <annevk> enums of that kind should simply always be lowercase
# [10:37] <annevk> simple enough
# [10:39] <jgraham> Yes, but different from either other named constants or the normal english usage of "2D"
# [10:39] <annevk> Is there a browser where HTML is still fast?
# [10:39] <annevk> yeah man, hard times
# [10:40] <annevk> Chrome is superslow these days
# [10:41] <annevk> I guess I can queue a task that says to check "unless cancelled do x
# [10:41] <annevk> "
# [10:41] <annevk> hmm that would still be quite hairy
# [10:42] <TabAtkins_> Anyone got an IE that they can visit http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1214 in?
# [10:42] <TabAtkins_> Any IE will do.
# [10:43] <krijn> TabAtkins_: what do you want to know?
# [10:43] <TabAtkins_> Are the two marquees the same height? And does the text overflow?
# [10:43] <krijn> Yes, no
# [10:43] <krijn> (IE8)
# [10:43] <TabAtkins_> Neither overflows? Interesting.
# [10:43] <TabAtkins_> So both are tall enough to fully contain their text. Huh.
# [10:43] <krijn> No
# [10:44] <krijn> They clip the text
# [10:44] <TabAtkins_> Oh, that's what I meant. ^_^ clipping is an overflow strategy.
# [10:45] <krijn> https://skitch.com/krijnhoetmer/gnfy3/ie8-marquee-stuffs
# [10:47] <espadrine> annevk: About the responseType = XMLHttpRequest.RESPONSE_JSON rather than responseType = "json" argument, wouldn't having Ruby's symbols in JS solve the issue?
# [10:48] <annevk> dunno what Ruby's symbols are
# [10:48] <espadrine> mostly, they behave just like strings
# [10:48] <jgraham> Something like responseType = :json
# [10:48] <jgraham> I think
# [10:49] <espadrine> but they are in some sort of global hashtable
# [10:49] <espadrine> so that we only compare constant integers most of the times
# [10:49] <annevk> I personally don't really see why an IDE can't provide support for strings
# [10:50] <annevk> espadrine, sounds neat if JavaScript had that already :)
# [10:50] <espadrine> that can be fixed… well, within 3 years at least
# [10:51] <jgraham> annevk: it seems like a much harder problem to track that x is a XHR object so that you know that x.responseType should be a string corresponding to an XHR response type than to just know that the global XMLHttpRequest object has some constants
# [10:53] * annevk shrugs
# [10:57] <zcorpan> annevk: the thing that cancels should just say to remove the task from the queue, i think
# [10:58] <annevk> so this is for fullscreen
# [10:59] <annevk> you queue a task for each document (cannot do one task because they can be cross-origin)
# [10:59] <annevk> then you do some asynchronous animation which can be aborted
# [10:59] <annevk> at that point one of those tasks might have already done something
# [11:00] <zcorpan> so half of the documents will have run the task and the other half haven't ?
# [11:00] <annevk> that could happen in theory I think
# [11:00] <TabAtkins_> Thanks, krijn .
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# [11:01] <annevk> i guess when that happens you notify those documents that things have been changed again
# [11:01] <zcorpan> why can't you just let the rest of the documents run the task too then?
# [11:01] <annevk> so you need to keep track of where events have dispatched
# [11:01] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah, and then dispatch another set of events to notify it has changed again?
# [11:01] <annevk> that might be easiest
# [11:01] <zcorpan> yeah
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# [11:14] <MikeSmith> can somebody please visit http://w3c-test.org/framework/test/DUMMY/single/attributes.html/
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> and just press the Fail button at the bottom
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# [11:15] <MikeSmith> test framework is not properly collecting results when I visit it
# [11:16] <MikeSmith> *not properly recording
# [11:16] <MikeSmith> hmm, or more like "not properly reporting"
# [11:16] <MikeSmith> I can see results getting entered into the DB
# [11:16] <MikeSmith> but not getting reported back
# [11:20] <zcorpan> done
# [11:20] <zcorpan> is that for manual tests?
# [11:21] <zcorpan> can there be a button for "this test can be automated, tell the test author to automate it" ?
# [11:22] <zcorpan> maybe w3c-test doesn't keep track of test authors
# [11:24] <MikeSmith> there is a way you can automatically run it and submit the results
# [11:24] <MikeSmith> http://w3c-test.org/framework/suite/DUMMY/
# [11:25] <MikeSmith> if you go there and select the "Submit test results automatically when possible" option
# [11:27] <zcorpan> seems Hixie is in denial about the name DOM4
# [11:28] <jgraham> Should of called it DOM4Web Then everyone could have hated on it
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# [11:30] <annevk> once we sort out living standards I'll just name it "DOM Standard" like HTML is "HTML Standard"
# [11:31] <MikeSmith> sigh
# [11:31] <MikeSmith> I figured out my problem
# [11:31] <annevk> there's a yay in there too
# [11:32] <MikeSmith> the framework is currently hard-coded to expect every test case to have a spec fragment ID associated with it
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# [11:36] <annevk> I updated the Fullscreen specification somewhat
# [11:36] <annevk> I have not yet addressed the problem mentioned above adequately, but I did simplify it a whole lot
# [11:37] <annevk> And addressed the problem of not dispatching fullscreenchange on each document
# [11:37] <annevk> I removed Document.fullscreen as currently it's no different from Document.fullscreenElement
# [11:38] <annevk> I guess I will email the list later as I have to go
# [11:38] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
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# [12:05] <decthomas> hi TabAtkins
# [12:05] <decthomas> just posted this tweet http://twitter.com/#!/decthomas/status/126958851072327680
# [12:05] <decthomas> can you help me out ? :)
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# [12:12] <decthomas> or anyone else for that matter :)
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# [12:35] <zcorpan> experience suggests that people will copy examples verbatim even if the example says to change placeholder values - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14117
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# [12:36] <annevk> Ms2ger, do you have better terminology?
# [12:36] <annevk> Ms2ger, I did not get further than "event listener whose capture variable is false" which is what we already have
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# [12:53] <zcorpan> enumSupportedValues(XMLHttpRequest, 'responseType')
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# [12:54] <annevk> over engineering?
# [12:55] <zcorpan> likely :)
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# [15:24] <MikeSmith> this is crashing my Opera 11.52:
# [15:24] <MikeSmith> http://w3c-test.org/framework/test/DUMMY/auto/Range-cloneContents.html/
# [15:25] <miketaylr> me too, boooooo
# [15:26] <wilhelm> Boom. Indeed.
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# [15:40] <smaug____> using range is an easy way to crash any engine
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# [15:41] <smaug____> unfortunately
# [15:41] <smaug____> s/crash/crash or hang/
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# [16:14] <krijn> Wil je er zelf een?
# [16:14] <krijn> Whoops
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# [16:16] <Drogos> Hi, I have two ideas / suggestions for changes to the html standard, where should I post them?
# [16:16] <zcorpan> whatwg@whatwg.org
# [16:16] <annevk> (need to subscribe first)
# [16:18] <Drogos> No forum or such where my inbox does not get affected?
# [16:19] <annevk> there's forums.whatwg.org
# [16:19] <Drogos> ah, good, thanks :)
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# [16:22] <annevk> AryehGregor, could you please revert http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/rev/8879ca39afaa
# [16:22] <annevk> AryehGregor, tests are not supposed to be run on dvcs, they are checked out on w3c-test.org
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# [16:38] <zcorpan> Drogos: however, spec feedback on the forums usually doesn't get to the spec editor's attention. i'd suggest you file a bug instead if you don't want to subscribe
# [16:39] <zcorpan> "(I killed the useless testharnessreport.js references at the same time, instead
# [16:39] <zcorpan> of updating them. As far as I can tell, we aren't supposed to use it anymore.)"
# [16:39] <zcorpan> we aren't?
# [16:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: ^
# [16:44] <jgraham> What?
# [16:44] <jgraham> Where is that from?
# [16:45] <Drogos> aha, thanks zcorpan :)
# [16:48] <zcorpan> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/rev/8879ca39afaa
# [16:49] <jgraham> AryehGregor: We are still supposed to use testharnessreport.js
# [16:49] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That patch is exactly wrong
# [16:50] <jgraham> using /resources/testharness.js is right and using an absolute url is wrong
# [16:50] <jgraham> The tests work on w3c-test.org
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# [17:00] <annevk> just before I asked for a revert
# [17:00] <annevk> changes like that really ought to be discussed first
# [17:01] <jgraham> Where did you ask?
# [17:02] <annevk> here on IRC
# [17:03] <jgraham> I see
# [17:03] <jgraham> I thought maybe there was a mailing list I wasn't on
# [17:04] <annevk> well I'm sure that's true too :)
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# [17:11] <MikeSmith> easy enough to roll that change back
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# [17:11] <MikeSmith> I can understand why Aryeh made that change
# [17:11] <MikeSmith> I probably would have done the same if I were him and trying to get stuff to work
# [17:12] <zewt> it'd be nice if the spec comment box didn't overlap the spec; it's annoying that whenever you search for text in firefox, the text it finds ends up hidden underneith the comment overlay
# [17:12] <MikeSmith> from the way things are set up, it's not very clear that the tests are intended to be executed from a different host
# [17:12] <zewt> also underneath (why do I always do that?)
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# [17:17] <MikeSmith> I like "underneith" better
# [17:18] <MikeSmith> it looks more similar to "Kool Keith"
# [17:18] <MikeSmith> and somehow seems slightly closer to "underthings" as well
# [17:19] <zewt> can I use my native speaker card and declare it a correct alternative
# [17:19] <zewt> google says 311000 vs. 108 million; i guess not :(
# [17:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yes, it is an understandable mistake to make
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# [17:41] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
# [17:41] <Drogos> I was on the html5 code camp in Norway last year, is anyone of the people from that camp here?
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# [18:47] <Hixie> annevk5: just start the task with a check for the condition and if it's not true don't do anything
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# [18:48] <Hixie> zcorpan: not in denial about the name, i can just never work out what it is, it keeps changing!
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# [18:59] <smaug____> interesting. Chrome + Gnome 3 can go to state where you can't even close Chrome
# [18:59] <smaug____> nor actually do anything with it
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# [19:24] <Hixie> ok julian has just crossed the threshold from wasting my time to actively harming the spec
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# [19:33] <hober2> Hixie: what did he do now?
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# [19:33] <Hixie> first he asked for me to move the definition of rel=sidebar to the wiki instead of in the spec
# [19:34] <Hixie> so i did that
# [19:34] <Hixie> now he's asking for the text that actually defines how sidebars work to be removed
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# [19:34] <Hixie> which would break the definition of rel=sidebar in the wiki
# [19:34] <hober> is he suggesting that there be a separate sidebar spec?
# [19:34] <hober> or simply that the feature be dropped?
# [19:34] <Hixie> neither, he's just asking for the text to be removed
# [19:35] <Hixie> a separate sidebar spec wouldn't really work since it would have to do invasive patches to the html spec
# [19:35] <hober> indeed
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# [21:20] <adtykfhyipoh> Hello
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# [21:21] <adtykfhyipoh> Can I have some help here?
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# [21:22] <adtykfhyipoh> Hello?
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# [21:29] <adtykfhyipoh> MikeSmith do you know about Canavs? I need some help
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# [21:32] <Philip`> adtykfhyipoh: You should just ask your question, and then someone might answer it
# [21:33] <adtykfhyipoh> I have been asking for hours but no one answered. Since then, I figured it out myself. Usually I wait for someone to join then ask them so they have the window open and they can see it
# [21:34] <adtykfhyipoh> In fact Philip` I have done that to you in the past
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# [21:38] <miketaylr> so what is the actual question?
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# [21:42] <adtykfhyipoh> Well I was trying to figure out how to make a canvas object move along a line, but I figured it out.
# [21:42] <adtykfhyipoh> Bye
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# [21:42] <bga_> heh
# [21:42] <miketaylr> later
# [21:42] <miketaylr> :)
# [21:43] <bga_> miketaylr but is it real? Opera 12 support window.onerror?
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# [23:27] <jgraham> Hixie: I still don't see that a javascript IDE can really know that x.responseType should take the values from XMLHttpRequest.responseType without actually running the code
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# [23:30] <Hixie> how can it know it should take the value XMLHttpRequest.WHATEVER?
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# [23:31] <bga_> jgraham window.XMLHttpReqest = ... my wrapper
# [23:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: so about onerror. what is unclear?
# [23:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: all of the bugs were way too vague, i had no idea what you meant
# [23:33] <zcorpan> ok
# [23:33] <Hixie> zcorpan: e.g. "If the script is not same-origin, window.onerror should be invoked with arguments ("Script error.", "", 0)" -- which script? same-origin with what? what window? why fire it at all? etc
# [23:33] <Hixie> when should it be fired?
# [23:33] <heycam> jgraham, I expect the argument is that the author will type "XMLHttpRequest." and can then do completion
# [23:34] <heycam> jgraham, but otherwise yes it would require some analysis to work out what function is really being called and what values it can be called with
# [23:34] <Hixie> heycam: that's jgraham's argument. My argument is that the IDE should just guess that x.responseType is the XMLHttpRequest.responseType attribute (based on looking at what |x| is last initialized to, e.g.) and knowing that responseType takes certain strings.
# [23:35] <Hixie> that = that the author will type "XMLHttpRequest." and can then do completion
# [23:35] <jgraham> Hixie: It can't. But it can know that if you type XM then XMLHttpRequest is a valid completion and then if you type . it can list all the other completions
# [23:35] <Hixie> jgraham: that's a pretty lame IDE
# [23:35] <jgraham> Hixie: How can you do better
# [23:35] <jgraham> ?
# [23:35] <jgraham> With javascript?
# [23:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: so it's not actually the scirpt's origin, but the script's *URL's* origin, compared to the script's origin
# [23:35] <heycam> Hixie, I think that is possible too. once you've done the analysis to know that you're using XHR's responseType, you can autocomplete for property names, strings, whatever
# [23:35] * bga_ just use notepad++
# [23:36] <Hixie> zcorpan: don't tell me here, put it in the bug :-)
# [23:36] <Hixie> heycam: right
# [23:36] <zcorpan> will do
# [23:36] <Hixie> jgraham: you don't have to be perfect, you just have to be good enough to handle non-obtuse code
# [23:36] <Hixie> zcorpan: awesome, thanks
# [23:36] <heycam> maybe browsers will expose their type inference results at some point to make this easier
# [23:36] <heycam> Hixie, yeah it wouldn't be the first IDE whose autocomplete you could trick
# [23:37] <Hixie> indeed
# [23:37] <jgraham> Seems like it is at least rather non trivial in any case where you don't declare the variable statically in the same function
# [23:37] <Hixie> tricking an IDE autocomplete is like tricking a bicycle pump
# [23:37] <Hixie> the only loser is yourself
# [23:37] <jgraham> If I write function (x) {x.responseType =
# [23:38] <Hixie> jgraham: you can guess pretty easily that "responseType" might be an XHR responseType, even without looking at the variable it's used on
# [23:38] <jgraham> it seems highly unclear how it can know nything
# [23:38] <heycam> I'm assuming that with the kind of IDE assistance being argued for on the list, you could start typing "x.responseType = Node.", press tab, and get a list of node types
# [23:38] <jgraham> Well yeah it could do that. Sucks if there is more than one possibility though
# [23:38] <heycam> so not completely helpful, you need to know the constant is on XMLHttpRequest
# [23:39] <jgraham> heycam: Node.? where is that from?
# [23:39] <jgraham> Oh I see
# [23:39] <heycam> jgraham, you type it. this is when you're typing some code I assume
# [23:39] <jgraham> Well yes, you need to know what type of object it is
# [23:40] <Hixie> how do you know that Node is the Node we defined?
# [23:40] <Hixie> anyone in JS can override Node
# [23:40] <jgraham> and guess that the object's constants live on its interface object
# [23:40] <Hixie> var Node = null;
# [23:40] <heycam> it's a good question, it'd be another assumption unless you have wicked analysis
# [23:40] <jgraham> Sure, but you can get it right in a lot more situations than with pure strings
# [23:40] <Hixie> if you can just guess that Node is the Node interface we spec, then why not just guess that responseType is is the XHR responseType?
# [23:41] <jgraham> Because one is likely to be right and the other is quite likely to be wrong?
# [23:41] <Hixie> responseType being the one likely to be right and Node likely to be wrong?
# [23:41] <jgraham> Who redefines Node in their code?
# [23:41] <jgraham> I men people add to it
# [23:41] <Hixie> who uses responseType in their code?
# [23:42] <Hixie> it doesn't have to be perfect
# [23:42] <Hixie> just has to be good enough
# [23:42] <jgraham> Seems like a reasonable name to use when you have a response with a type
# [23:42] <Hixie> the drop down can easily just say "XMLHttpRequest.responseType values: \n "this" \n "that" \n FooBar.responseType values: \n "this" \n "that""
# [23:42] <jgraham> And I'm sure there are other examples where the DOM reuses an attribute name to mean different things on differnet interfaces
# [23:43] <Hixie> i see no problem here
# [23:43] <jgraham> Anyway I don't really know what IDEs actually do
# [23:43] * Quits: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk) (Quit: ...)
# [23:43] <jgraham> But I would guess they will get the named constants right and not help with the string constants
# [23:44] * Joins: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk)
# [23:44] <franksalim> has anyone mentioned that named constants are discoverable without documentation?
# [23:44] <franksalim> by looking at the object?
# [23:45] <jgraham> franksalim: Yes
# [23:45] <franksalim> ok, good. that seems very compelling to me
# [23:45] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [23:46] <jgraham> heycam: So, in other questions, why are attributes on prototypes not on instances?
# [23:46] <jgraham> zcorpan points out that it can help feature detection
# [23:46] <jgraham> But to me it seems like a very odd setup
# [23:46] <heycam> jgraham, because it's common behaviour across all instances of a particular interface?
# [23:47] <heycam> jgraham, seemed natural to me
# [23:47] <jgraham> heycam: An attribute is a property of an instance
# [23:47] <heycam> jgraham, sure, but I think that modelling really only works if you are using data properties
# [23:48] <heycam> jgraham, I think it's fine for internal state to be modelled with an accessor property coming from a prototype
# [23:48] <zcorpan> heycam: it's not defined what attributes on the prototype should return, or is it?
# [23:48] <heycam> zcorpan, if you do Node.prototype.nodeType?
# [23:48] <heycam> zcorpan, defined to throw
# [23:48] <jgraham> Conceptually it feels wrong to say that the attribute is a property of the prototypical object rather than of the actual object
# [23:49] <zcorpan> heycam: ah
# [23:49] <heycam> jgraham, I can see where you're coming from
# [23:49] <heycam> jgraham, especially if you think of Node.prototype as a prototypical Node
# [23:49] <heycam> jgraham, though in practice of course it's not itself a Node
# [23:51] <jgraham> Right.
# [23:51] <jgraham> My argument is entirely that the model used does not match the most likely mental model of authors
# [23:52] <heycam> probably true
# [23:53] <jgraham> Who might expect some_node.hasOwnProperty("tagName") to be true
# [23:53] <heycam> especially if unfamiliar with accessor properties
# [23:53] <jgraham> s/node/element/
# [23:53] <heycam> ("tagName" in some_node is true tho)
# [23:53] <jgraham> Yeah
# [23:53] <heycam> an author might also expect some_node.hasOwnProperty("appendChild") to be true for the same reason
# [23:53] <heycam> unless they have some experience with using prototypes to write "classes"
# [23:54] <heycam> such an author probably isn't using hasOwnProperty though :)
# [23:54] <jgraham> Right, but it is easier to understand that shared behaviour is a property of the "superclass"
# [23:54] <jgraham> Well doesn't Crockford promote hasOwnProperty?
# [23:54] <jgraham> At least for enumeration
# [23:54] <heycam> don't know...
# [23:55] <jgraham> for (foo in bar) {if bar.hasOwnProperty(foo) {/*do stuff*/}}
# [23:55] <jgraham> So people might come across it that way
# [23:55] * Quits: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk) (Quit: ...)
# [23:56] <heycam> ok
# [23:56] <heycam> well, I haven't really had any pushback on what's in the spec at the moment. but you're welcome to start a thread on the list about it!
# [23:56] <bga_> if(!obj.hOP(k)) break is better
# [23:57] <jgraham> bga_: doesn't that make assumptions about the order of enumeration?
# [23:57] <jgraham> I assure you that they are not supported by the spec :)
# [23:57] <bga_> * continue
# [23:57] <bga_> sorry
# [23:57] <jgraham> Ah, OK
# [23:58] <bga_> but break works too
# [23:58] <jgraham> heycam: I fear that list
# [23:58] <bga_> for non IE
# [23:58] <jgraham> :)
# [23:58] <heycam> :)
# [23:58] <heycam> i tend to reply in bursts to minimise exasperation :)
# [23:59] <jgraham> Also, iven zcorpan's point, I'm not sure whether it is worth pushing for a change
# [23:59] <bga_> jgraham i just have Object#_each like Array#forEach
# [23:59] <jgraham> I *think* only gecko implements the current spec
# [23:59] <jgraham> But that is from memory and might be outdated even if it was once true
# [23:59] <jgraham> (my memory is quite terrible)
# Session Close: Fri Oct 21 00:00:00 2011

The end :)