/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-21 / end

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1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 21 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <heycam> heh
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5. # [00:01] <heycam> pretty sure we do accessors for attributes tho
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7. # [00:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: clearer now?
8. # [00:02] <zcorpan> webkit and opera don't match the spec
9. # [00:02] <zcorpan> no idea about ie
10. # [00:03] <heycam> zcorpan, oh I've been meaning to test, what about the new Opera.next release?
11. # [00:03] <heycam> zcorpan, since they do ES5 now
12. # [00:03] <zcorpan> same
13. # [00:03] <heycam> s/they/you/ :)
14. # [00:03] <heycam> ok
15. # [00:04] <zcorpan> i don't object to changing the spec to match opera/webkit/ie (?), the only thing is that it makes it a bit harder for authors to do feature detection
16. # [00:04] <heycam> zcorpan, how so?
17. # [00:04] <heycam> beacuse you have to create an instance first?
18. # [00:04] <zcorpan> yes
19. # [00:04] <heycam> k
20. # [00:05] <zcorpan> consider WebSocket
21. # [00:05] <zcorpan> checking the prototype is a one-liner
22. # [00:05] <zcorpan> var support = 'binaryType' in WebSocket.prototype;
23. # [00:05] <zcorpan> creating an instance without side effects is harder
24. # [00:06] <zcorpan> and not a one-liner :)
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26. # [00:06] <bga_> not so
27. # [00:06] <bga_> just small wrapper
28. # [00:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah, much better. thanks.
29. # [00:07] <bga_> which do real init if you perform real actions
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32. # [00:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: looks like the spec is pretty vague about the onerror arguments right now anyway, so i guess i'll use those bugs as an opportunity to clean it up
33. # [00:08] <zcorpan> var support = (function() {
34. # [00:08] <zcorpan> var s = new WebSocket('ws://example.invalid/');
35. # [00:08] <zcorpan> return 'binaryType' in s;
36. # [00:08] <zcorpan> })();
37. # [00:08] <zcorpan> ok, not that hard
38. # [00:08] <heycam> or 'binaryType' in new WebSocket...
39. # [00:08] <heycam> but yes your point is generally true
40. # [00:08] <franksalim> zcorpan: does that cause a DNS lookup for invalid?
41. # [00:08] <bga_> except user will see error in console
42. # [00:08] <zcorpan> franksalim: yes
43. # [00:08] <Hixie> you really don't want to be creating a WebSocket just to do feature detection
44. # [00:08] <franksalim> so it isn't completely side effect free...
45. # [00:09] <zcorpan> right
46. # [00:09] * heycam gtg
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49. # [00:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: we decided to copy firefox for onerror. webkit always uses empty string as location for setTimeout scripts, otherwise i think they behaved pretty much the same
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51. # [00:17] <Hixie> makes sense
52. # [00:18] <zcorpan> what part makes sense? copying firefox or using empty string for setTimeout? :)
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57. # [00:30] <Hixie> zcorpan: copying firefox
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68. # [00:41] <zcorpan> ok
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71. # [00:53] <Hixie> heycam|away: advice on the first bullet point of http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14037#c29 would be helpful
72. # [00:56] <smaug____> jgraham: IIRC IE implements most of webidl. at least things like interface.prototype.property handling
73. # [00:56] <Hixie> annevk5: ping
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76. # [01:03] <karlcow> http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_357613442_1?ie=UTF8&docId=1000729901&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_r=0QAERWX4FF6S17ZXDZRR&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=1321300302&pf_rd_i=1000729511
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79. # [01:07] <karlcow> "<?xml?> This tag identifies a document as an XML document" ?
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90. # [01:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: +partial interface <a href=#document>Document</a> {
91. # [01:23] <zcorpan> + readonly attribute <code><a href=#document>Document</a></code> <a href=#htmldocument title=HTMLDocument>HTMLDocument</a>;
92. # [01:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: that doesn't make sense
93. # [01:23] <Hixie> nonetheless it is what i intended, I believe
94. # [01:23] <Hixie> see the bug in question for more details
95. # [01:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: don't you want that on Window ?
96. # [01:23] <Hixie> oh, right
97. # [01:24] <Hixie> oops
98. # [01:24] <Hixie> good point
99. # [01:24] <zcorpan> now sleep
100. # [01:24] <Hixie> also i made it return the document instead of the interface!
101. # [01:24] <Hixie> man i suck
102. # [01:25] <zcorpan> heh
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108. # [01:45] <Hixie> abarth: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13776 makes my head hurt
109. # [01:45] <Hixie> er
110. # [01:45] <Hixie> s/abarth: //
111. # [01:51] <Hixie> OH MY GOD BROWSERS MAKE NO SENSE
112. # [01:51] <Hixie> <form> <img name=y><img name=y> </form> form.y == HTMLCollection with length 2, containing two images
113. # [01:52] <Hixie> <form> <img name=y><img name=y><input name=y> </form> form.y == the <input> element.
114. # [01:52] <Hixie> WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN
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120. # [02:03] <sicking> Hixie: do they all do the same thing?
121. # [02:04] <sicking> Hixie: with a lot of edge cases around this I wouldn't expect them to
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125. # [02:09] <Hixie> sicking: yeah, more or less
126. # [02:10] <sicking> that's awesome
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131. # [02:18] <jarek> Hi
132. # [02:18] <jarek> the {url} is defined in CSS as follows:
133. # [02:18] <jarek> ([!#$%&*-~]|{nonascii}|{escape})*
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135. # [02:19] <jarek> what does exactly [!#$%&*-~] sequence mean? One char from !,#,$,%,&,*,-,~ ?
136. # [02:19] <jarek> is so, it doesn't make sense to me
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143. # [02:34] <Hixie> sicking: for extra amusement, <form> <img name=y><img name=y><input name=y type=image> </form> form.y == HTMLCollection with length 2, containing the two <img>s
144. # [02:34] <Hixie> jarek__: it means one char from ,#,$,%,& or any char from * to ~
145. # [02:34] <sicking> Hixie: yeah, the old type=image bug that we inherited from ancient netscape days is hilarious
146. # [02:34] <Hixie> yeah
147. # [02:35] <sicking> i suspect it annoys websites as much as it annoys us
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149. # [02:35] <Hixie> also, <form><input name=x></form> form.x == the input; now change form.x.name to 'y' and form.x STILL returns the input
150. # [02:35] <sicking> but there's just too much old content depending on it to change it
151. # [02:35] <Hixie> yeah
152. # [02:35] <sicking> Hixie: the latter might have just changed in Firefox
153. # [02:35] <sicking> Hixie: try nigtlies
154. # [02:36] <sicking> Hixie: <3 proxies
155. # [02:36] <sicking> Hixie: i suspect the web doesn't depend on that
156. # [02:36] <Hixie> seems to me it still does it
157. # [02:36] <sicking> Hixie: in general, behavior around mutations is much less depended on since old content didn't do it
158. # [02:37] <Hixie> so do all the other browsers
159. # [02:37] <Hixie> my understanding is that this one is required by compat
160. # [02:37] <sicking> Hixie: ooh, form.x, not form.elements.x
161. # [02:37] <Hixie> the html spec has required it for some time and that's not the kind of craziness i put in without good reason ;-)
162. # [02:37] <Hixie> yeah, none of this is .elements.
163. # [02:37] <Hixie> .elements is somewhat better behaved
164. # [02:37] <Hixie> at least in non-webkit
165. # [02:37] <jarek__> Hixie: thanks
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187. # [03:57] <annevk> Hixie, pong
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189. # [04:02] <annevk> heycam|away, I meant exceptions "thrown by" Web IDL
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194. # [04:28] <Hixie> annevk: XMLDocument thing, see bugmail
195. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> hmm, http://validator.nu/?doc=https%3A%2F%2Fdvcs.w3.org%2Fhg%2Fwebperf%2Fraw-file%2Ftip%2Fspecs%2FPageVisibility%2FOverview.html&showsource=yes
196. # [04:31] <annevk> I see, we've been trying to avoid such a dependency
197. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> «The encoding "utf-8" is not the preferred name of the character encoding in use. The preferred name is utf-8.»
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199. # [04:34] <annevk> Maybe HTML should simply define createDocument() as well then
200. # [04:34] <annevk> if it's for creating XMLDocument
201. # [04:35] * annevk sighs
202. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
203. # [04:36] <Hixie> annevk: you should be fine
204. # [04:36] <Hixie> annevk: no dependency
205. # [04:36] <Hixie> annevk: just put interface XMLDocument : Document { } after you define Document
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207. # [04:36] <Hixie> annevk: and made createDocument() return an XMLDocument
208. # [04:37] <Hixie> annevk: that's all
209. # [04:37] <annevk> aah
210. # [04:37] <annevk> you made it partial
211. # [04:37] <annevk> sweet
212. # [04:37] <Hixie> yup
213. # [04:37] <annevk> thanks Hixie
214. # [04:37] <Hixie> np
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223. # [05:01] <annevk> Hixie, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-domimplementation-createdocument
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225. # [05:06] <ojan> annevk: i have yet to respond to the e4x thread, but just fyi, i disagree with alex that quasi's are the right solution to this
226. # [05:07] <ojan> annevk: we should either move forward with an html-ified e4x variant or with your earlier array based proposal
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228. # [05:07] <ojan> i'll try and compose a proper email response tomorrow
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232. # [05:07] <ojan> too many threads going on at once to get any coding done :(
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234. # [05:09] <annevk> yay another supporter :)
235. # [05:10] <annevk> though qfox might have a point that convincing TC39 is beyond the realm of possibility
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242. # [05:44] <annevk> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6905167/javascript-parser-for-rdf-json-from-webvtt seems like this WebVTT thing is taking off
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260. # [06:31] <rniwa> annevk: yt?
261. # [06:32] <annevk> yeah, just about to go though
262. # [06:32] <annevk> back in an hour or so
263. # [06:32] <rniwa> k
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265. # [06:33] <rniwa> Hixie: yt?
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268. # [06:49] <annevk> rniwa, back
269. # [06:49] * annevk is bad with estimates
270. # [06:50] <rniwa> hi
271. # [06:51] <rniwa> annevk: did you see my email about restoring selection?
272. # [06:51] <annevk> hadn't read it yet
273. # [06:51] <rniwa> ok
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275. # [06:52] <rniwa> so the thing is that there's a slight difference in the way selection is restored on Mac and IE/Firefox
276. # [06:52] <rniwa> when undoing deletion
277. # [06:53] <rniwa> annevk: say you have "hello world" and deleted "world" from the end by repeatedly pressing the backspace key
278. # [06:53] <rniwa> until you get "hello"
279. # [06:53] <rniwa> then you undo this on IE/Firefox, you'll get "hello world" with the caret collapsed at the end of "world"
280. # [06:54] <rniwa> however on Mac's NSTextView, notepad, and WebKit, you'll see "world" being selected.
281. # [06:54] <annevk> also in Opera
282. # [06:54] <rniwa> annevk: oh you select the deleted contents?
283. # [06:55] <annevk> i just tried and it seems like it
284. # [06:55] <rniwa> I see.
285. # [06:55] <annevk> not sure if we should standardize one way or the other though
286. # [06:55] <rniwa> hm... but I think we might want to match the platform convetion
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288. # [06:55] <rniwa> at least for WebKit, we always try to match NSTextView's behavior whenever possible
289. # [06:56] <rniwa> given that the feature already works as expected, I'm not sure people would like us to change the behavior.
290. # [06:56] <rniwa> on the other hand, this gives us a lot of headache with respect to automatic transactions
291. # [06:56] <rniwa> because when an author creates a DOM transaction group with a bunch of automatic transactions
292. # [06:57] <rniwa> there's no way for us to delete whether a given DOM transaction is deleting stuff, inserting stuff, or replacing stuff
293. # [06:57] <rniwa> since just deleting contents may involve inserting new brs, replacing p's and div's to fix up paragraphs :(
294. # [06:57] <othermaciej> for user actions, it is almost certainly the right thing to follow platform convention
295. # [06:57] <othermaciej> for programmatically initiated commands, it is a tradeoff
296. # [06:57] <rniwa> othermaciej: hi maciej!
297. # [06:58] <rniwa> othermaciej: I think the point of automatic transaction is to replace browser's native editing support
298. # [06:58] <othermaciej> on the one hand, for a programmatically initiated command, the following JS code may make assumptions about the specific change that was made
299. # [06:58] <rniwa> othermaciej: or add a custom editing action
300. # [06:58] <annevk> hey othermaciej, long time!
301. # [06:58] <othermaciej> on the other hand, ideally you want such code to follow platform conventions
302. # [06:58] <othermaciej> hello annevk
303. # [06:58] <othermaciej> I'm here every day, I just usually don't have much to say
304. # [06:59] <rniwa> othermaciej: yeah, it's quite a dillema :(
305. # [06:59] <annevk> rniwa, I don't think I really know about this to give useful input, other than that for user initiated actions, we usually don't require much in the spec
306. # [06:59] <rniwa> annevk: yeah... I should probably talk to AryehGregor about this as well
307. # [06:59] <othermaciej> if you programatically trigger an undo, it really should do the same thing as a user-level undo command would
308. # [06:59] <rniwa> but then his spec doesn't really deal with undo/redo at the moment
309. # [07:00] <rniwa> othermaciej: right. otherwise, it'll be way too confusing
310. # [07:00] <rniwa> othermaciej: but it seems like the only way to restore selection properly
311. # [07:01] <rniwa> othermaciej: is if author provided us of some information such as whether a DOM transaction deletes contents or not
312. # [07:01] <rniwa> othermaciej: or use some heuristics to determine if a given DOM transaction looks like deleting contents
313. # [07:01] <rniwa> I'd like to avoid the latter because that'll make things unpredictable
314. # [07:02] <othermaciej> rniwa: are there special cases other than a series of backspace actions?
315. # [07:02] <rniwa> since selection behavior is quite visible to scripts
316. # [07:02] <rniwa> othermaciej: well you can insert text then delete
317. # [07:02] <othermaciej> rniwa: cause if so, the only special case is deleting immediately behind the caret
318. # [07:02] <rniwa> othermaciej: or you can delete then insert
319. # [07:02] <othermaciej> does insert then delete collapse into a single undo transaction in normal editing?
320. # [07:02] <rniwa> othermaciej: yeah but that's almost impossible to detect if the author was to implement it themselves
321. # [07:02] <rniwa> othermaciej: yes
322. # [07:03] <rniwa> othermaciej: at least on WebKit & Gecko
323. # [07:03] <othermaciej> how about paste followed by backspace?
324. # [07:03] <rniwa> othermaciej: also on MS Word, WordPad and NSTextView but NOT on notepad
325. # [07:03] * rniwa checks
326. # [07:03] <rniwa> othermaciej: paste is treated a separate action
327. # [07:03] <zewt> well, notepad doesn't even have multi-level undo, and its single-level undo is horrid ... safe to ignore it, i think
328. # [07:04] <rniwa> othermaciej: so undoing paste+deletion will only undoes the deletion
329. # [07:04] <rniwa> zewt: good point
330. # [07:04] <othermaciej> rniwa: hmm, so typing a single character is observably different from a one-char paste
331. # [07:04] <rniwa> othermaciej: yeah
332. # [07:04] <rniwa> othermaciej: copy & paste (including drag & drop) are very special beasts
333. # [07:04] <zewt> i don't think windows really has any strong platform-specific undo conventions, most of the platform core stuff has very weak undo
334. # [07:05] <zewt> (eg. win32 text boxes also don't have multi-level undo)
335. # [07:05] <rniwa> zewt: RichTextEdit has multi-level undo
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337. # [07:05] <othermaciej> rniwa: it sounds like, to capture this behavior correctly, you need an indication of author intent
338. # [07:05] <rniwa> zewt: that's what WordPad uses as far as I know.
339. # [07:05] <rniwa> othermaciej: yeah
340. # [07:05] <othermaciej> rniwa: specifically, actions in response to "typing" are a special case
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342. # [07:06] <othermaciej> and you can't tell from the DOM change alone whether it is "typing"
343. # [07:06] <zewt> (of course, undo particulars are still UA-specific at least, so an undo API should still be able to handle existing browser undo behavior)
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345. # [07:06] <rniwa> othermaciej: right
346. # [07:06] <zewt> (eg. regardless of whether that behavior comes from the UA or the OS)
347. # [07:07] <rniwa> zewt: yeah, I think we need to have some granularity on how undo/redo is done
348. # [07:07] <zewt> personally i'd be happy if this fixes undo cursor positions and nothing else, that's the #1 thing that drives me crazy about rich text editors in browsers by a *huge* margin
349. # [07:07] <rniwa> othermaciej: so maybe isTyping boolean?
350. # [07:08] <rniwa> othermaciej, annevk: another headache I have is the fact that some automatic transaction may not want to mess with selection at all
351. # [07:08] <othermaciej> rniwa: I suppose one implicit way to do it is to look at the event being processed, though key events can sometimes trigger non-typing actions (even for keys that would normally just enter text)
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353. # [07:08] <rniwa> othermaciej: not sure if that works because authors can do whatever they please to do
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355. # [07:09] <rniwa> othermaciej: e.g. they can decide to insert stuff when delete key is pressed
356. # [07:09] <zewt> also in theory you could implement a touchscreen keyboard (where mouse events might want to behave like keystrokes)
357. # [07:10] <rniwa> zewt: yeah
358. # [07:10] <rniwa> othermaciej: another thing to consider is that authors may want to emulate typing commands without actually receiving user inputs
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361. # [07:11] <rniwa> also... another problem is that even if authors hinted us that some DOM transaction is deleting stuff or is a typing command
362. # [07:11] <rniwa> it might be still hard for us to detect exactly what has been deleted
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364. # [07:12] <rniwa> since deleting a line break for example may end up fixing up the entire paragraph by inserting div's, p's, br's :(
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366. # [07:12] <annevk> Man, the way WebVTT is defined makes for a terrible read
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368. # [07:13] <zewt> havn't really followed this, but the basic idea is being able to coalesce edit transactions, right?
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370. # [07:13] <zewt> three delete-character edits coalescing into a single action, etc
371. # [07:13] <rniwa> zewt: if author wishes to, yes
372. # [07:13] <rniwa> zewt: the key issue is that how we restore selection in those cases
373. # [07:14] <rniwa> zewt: in the case of non-typing commands, it's quite simple
374. # [07:14] <rniwa> zewt: you just remember what the selection looked like before an automatic transaction
375. # [07:14] <rniwa> zewt: and restore exactly that
376. # [07:14] <zewt> btw. how can you delete a character when you have a selection? that normally turns backspace actions into delete-the-whole-selection
377. # [07:15] <rniwa> when the DOM transaction is undone
378. # [07:15] <rniwa> zewt: well selection can be either collapsed or uncollapsed
379. # [07:15] <rniwa> it doesn't really matter
380. # [07:16] <rniwa> zewt: the problem is when something is deleted and that deletion is undone
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383. # [07:16] <rniwa> zewt: in that case WebKit and Opera currently select the contents that have been added back to the document
384. # [07:17] <rniwa> zewt: but when authors implement some automatic transactions, there is no good way for us to tell what has been deleted
385. # [07:17] <rniwa> zewt: or worse, whether the command was deleting something at all
386. # [07:17] <rniwa> s/something/anything/
387. # [07:18] <zewt> yeah i see what you mean
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389. # [07:18] <zewt> is the coalescing of transactions under the browser's control?
390. # [07:18] <rniwa> zewt: it's under author's control 'til it's added to an UndoManager
391. # [07:18] <zewt> eg. control-backspace two words in firefox is one undo transaction, two in webkit (chrome at least)
392. # [07:19] <zewt> er, two undos
393. # [07:19] <zewt> er no that was right (tired/late)
394. # [07:19] <rniwa> zewt: really? that's surprising to me
395. # [07:19] <rniwa> zewt: I thought we treat those as one undo item
396. # [07:19] <zewt> don't know if that's chrome-specific behavior
397. # [07:19] <zewt> (would have to load a vm to try in safari)
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399. # [07:19] <rniwa> interesting...
400. # [07:20] <rniwa> zewt: it's webkit behavior probably copied from Mac
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402. # [07:20] <Hixie> rniwa: here now
403. # [07:21] <zewt> rniwa: even more fun is multi-selects in firefox, where a single user action might delete noncontiguous text D:
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405. # [07:21] <zewt> (guess the same thing could happen in other browsers, if there's hidden text about)
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407. # [07:22] <rniwa> zewt: that, i'm not too worried about because only gecko supports multi-range selection at the moment
408. # [07:22] <rniwa> zewt: so gecko can do whatever it wants to do
409. # [07:23] <zewt> i want to see stats on how many people have ever used that :)
410. # [07:23] <zewt> (manual distinct selections with control-click)
411. # [07:23] <rniwa> Hixie: hi Hixie, so now that undomanager & dom transaction stuff are getting some traction, I want to propose more crazy ideas LOL
412. # [07:23] <zewt> probably in the vicinity of: 0
413. # [07:23] <rniwa> Hixie: namely I want to fix the way key binding works on the web
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415. # [07:23] <zewt> gooood luck
416. # [07:24] <Hixie> rniwa: have browsers implemented the last set of improvements to key bindings yet?
417. # [07:24] <rniwa> zewt: yeah, ehsan told me that there are some gecko users that really love that multi-rage stuff
418. # [07:24] <rniwa> Hixie: which one?
419. # [07:24] <Hixie> rniwa: <command>, the new accesskey="", accessKey, accessKeyLabel, etc
420. # [07:24] <rniwa> Hixie: yes, that's exactly what i'm about to tell you
421. # [07:25] <rniwa> Hixie: not sure if we had already talked about it on whatwg and elsewhere
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423. # [07:25] <rniwa> Hixie: but we'd like to be able to support ctrl, alt, cmd, and other modifiers
424. # [07:25] <rniwa> Hixie: in accessKey
425. # [07:25] <zewt> i'm surprised that opera *way* stepped back the number of keys it eats ... that was endless headaches trying to implement keyboard shortcuts
426. # [07:25] * rniwa is almost certain there is some bug about this
427. # [07:25] <Hixie> rniwa: baby steps, we have to get the basics implemented first ;-)
428. # [07:26] <rniwa> Hixie: yeah, but it's good to think about modifier keys first so that we don't get stuck with the basic ones
429. # [07:26] <Hixie> rniwa: it's already planned
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431. # [07:26] <rniwa> Hixie: great.
432. # [07:26] <rniwa> Hixie: anyway, on top of that, I want to die command element to editing commands
433. # [07:26] <rniwa> Hixie: and provide a way to define an editing command easily using command elements
434. # [07:27] <rniwa> Hixie: so that authors can add new editing command like this: <command name="InsertDate" onapply="insertAtSelection(formattedDate())" isautomatic="true" accessKey="accel+d">
435. # [07:27] <Hixie> rniwa: (namely, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13958 is for modifiers, and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13576 is for specific labeled keys)
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437. # [07:27] <rniwa> Hixie: right. this is more stuff on top of that
438. # [07:28] <Hixie> rniwa: (i expect to support modifiers via something like accesskey="ctrl+a command+a" or something once we've established whether the multiple key thing works at all
439. # [07:28] <Hixie> rniwa: (hence the way it's specced so far, with all the room for expansion)
440. # [07:28] <Hixie> rniwa: i don't really understand your proposal for editing commands, but the general idea seems sound
441. # [07:28] <Hixie> rniwa: i expect we'll add that once browsers actually support <menu>, <command>, etc
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443. # [07:28] <rniwa> Hixie: so basically it lets you register you execCommand
444. # [07:29] <Hixie> yeah
445. # [07:29] <rniwa> new*
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447. # [07:29] <rniwa> Hixie: but I don't quite get what menu does
448. # [07:29] <rniwa> given that we don't have any ways to define a toolbar
449. # [07:29] <rniwa> why do we just support menu?
450. # [07:29] <Hixie> <menu type=toolbar> is how you define a toolbar
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452. # [07:30] <Hixie> and <menu type=context> defines a context menu
453. # [07:30] <rniwa> hm...
454. # [07:30] <Hixie> see the spec :-)
455. # [07:30] <rniwa> I must have missed it when I skimmed through the spec
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460. # [07:33] <rniwa> Hixie: ok, I might look into implementing that for WebKit then
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463. # [07:34] <Hixie> that'd be great. i've got a ton of improvements in that area that are just waiting for solid implementations of the stuff there so far
464. # [07:34] <Hixie> one big open question is styling of the toolbars; i think we should have some sort of pseudo-element or something, but i dunno exactly how that would work
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466. # [07:34] <Hixie> (not an issue for menus since those should just match the platform conventions)
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468. # [07:35] <rniwa> Hixie: what do we need pseudo-elements for?
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471. # [07:36] <Hixie> well e.g. for <menu type=toolbar> <a href="/">Home</a> <input type=button value=Save> <command type=checkbox label="Enable Spellcheck"> </menu>
472. # [07:36] <Hixie> how do you style the three buttons to fit your site?
473. # [07:36] <Hixie> the usual :link, <input> and <command> styles obviously don't apply
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475. # [07:36] <rniwa> Hixie: can't you just do menu > * {~~} ?
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477. # [07:37] <Hixie> rniwa: not really, the elements involved have such different ways of being represented
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479. # [07:37] <Hixie> rniwa: e.g. <a> has contents, but <input> has a value
480. # [07:37] <Hixie> rniwa: usual CSS doesn't really work here
481. # [07:38] <Hixie> rniwa: also, <menu type=toolbar> <hr> <button></button> <hr><hr> <button></button> FOO </menu> only has one separator and shouldn't say "FOO", CSS can't really represent that
482. # [07:38] <Hixie> rniwa: so you really want to construct the menu, per the spec, and then style the constructed menu, not the DOM directly
483. # [07:38] <Hixie> rniwa: hence, pseudo-elements
484. # [07:38] <Hixie> rniwa: but it's not exactly clear how it'd work
485. # [07:39] <rniwa> hm...
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487. # [07:40] <rniwa> Hixie: why don't we restrict things that can appear in menu more?
488. # [07:40] <Hixie> rniwa: how do you mean?
489. # [07:40] <rniwa> e.g. only commands and hr can appear inside menu
490. # [07:40] <Hixie> rniwa: that would be lame
491. # [07:40] <Hixie> rniwa: e.g. how would you do a command that follows a link?
492. # [07:41] <Hixie> rniwa: also, the fallback story is terrible
493. # [07:41] <Hixie> rniwa: we have HTML elements with the semantics we want, it seems to make sense to use them
494. # [07:41] <Hixie> rniwa: in any case, it still wouldn't really solve our problem
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496. # [07:42] <Hixie> rniwa: even with just <command> and <hr>, you still have the separator-collapsing logic to handle, and <command> doesn't render as anything (it's display:none) so styling it isn't helpful
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499. # [07:42] <rniwa> Hixie: that's one thing I don't like about the current spec
500. # [07:43] <rniwa> Hixie: why can't we just make command element take contents?
501. # [07:43] <rniwa> Hixie: then you can wrap whatever you want inside command elements
502. # [07:43] <Hixie> rniwa: three reasons
503. # [07:43] <rniwa> Hixie: and whatever algorithm we use to generate toolbars and menus can just look at command elements
504. # [07:44] <Hixie> rniwa: 1. on the long term that will make pages really verbose (<command></command>) which is bad for authoring
505. # [07:44] <Hixie> rniwa: 2. it doesn't make the algorithms any simpler, really.
506. # [07:44] <Hixie> rniwa: 3. it means authors would have to implement everything twice to get fallback (once in <command> and once the old way)
507. # [07:44] <Hixie> more reasons: 4. it would mean having to define what happens to the fallback elements for purposes of form submission
508. # [07:45] <Hixie> also, the idea long term is to have <command> be able to refer to other elements, e.g. <a href="/" id=home>Home</a> with somewhere else <command ref=home>
509. # [07:45] <Hixie> so that you only have to disable things or update thinsg once (e.g. only have to update the a.href here once) even if the command is in many menus and toolbars and so on
510. # [07:46] <Hixie> that's really the only reason <command> exists at all
511. # [07:46] <rniwa> Hixie: if we're adding ref/for to command, it seems more natural to make it wrap the elements that it refers to.
512. # [07:46] <Hixie> that and being able to define commands that _don't_ have legacy fallback (which is useful if, e.g., your context menu is completely redundant with some "real" buttons)
513. # [07:47] <Hixie> no i mean being able to reference the command from multiple places
514. # [07:47] <rniwa> Hixie: you can define a fallback-less command by omitting the contents, right?
515. # [07:47] <Hixie> yeah but that's way too verbose
516. # [07:47] <rniwa> hm...
517. # [07:47] <rniwa> i disagree > way too verbose
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519. # [07:48] <Hixie> you don't think littering the DOM with </command> end tags is verbose? o_O
520. # [07:48] <rniwa> no
521. # [07:48] <rniwa> I think that's much better than having to add random ref/for attributes
522. # [07:48] <rniwa> I hate having to add id's just so that I can refer from elsewhere
523. # [07:48] <Hixie> i don't understand how they are related
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526. # [07:51] <rniwa> okay let's take the example in 4.11.4.1 Introduction
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528. # [07:51] <rniwa> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html
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532. # [07:51] <rniwa> Hixie: what if I wanted to attach an icon to <button type="button" onclick="fnew()">New...</button> ?
533. # [07:51] <rniwa> Hixie: how do I do that under the current spec?
534. # [07:52] <Hixie> you can't, <button> doesn't have icons.
535. # [07:52] <rniwa> Hixie: right but I want it to have an icon when it's shown in the menu
536. # [07:52] <rniwa> Hixie: so I'd end up adding a command element anyway to work-around this limiation
537. # [07:52] <Hixie> oh actually no
538. # [07:53] <Hixie> the spec does define a way to give an icon
539. # [07:53] <Hixie> you just put an <img> inside the <button>
540. # [07:53] <rniwa> :(
541. # [07:53] <Hixie> see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#using-the-a-element-to-define-a-command
542. # [07:53] <Hixie> (the <button> section basically copies the <a> section)
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544. # [07:54] <rniwa> Hixie: ok, what if I wanted to disable <li><a href="help.html">Help</a></li> ?
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546. # [07:54] <Hixie> rniwa: how would you do that irrespective of menus?
547. # [07:55] <rniwa> Hixie: well, if it were a menu item
548. # [07:55] <rniwa> Hixie: then I can always disable it regardless of what it does at least on Windows
549. # [07:55] <rniwa> to begin with, a link in a context menu shouldn't show up as a link
550. # [07:55] <rniwa> it should look like any other menu item
551. # [07:55] <Hixie> exactly
552. # [07:55] <Hixie> which the spec requires
553. # [07:55] <rniwa> but I should still be able to disable that
554. # [07:55] <Hixie> (whence, for toolbars, the styling issue)
555. # [07:56] <Hixie> why?
556. # [07:56] <Hixie> what's the use case for disabling a link?
557. # [07:56] <rniwa> because maybe help doesn't exist for some content
558. # [07:56] <rniwa> and I don't want users to click that
559. # [07:56] <Hixie> if there's a use case for disabling a link, we should fix that with <a>, it's not menu-specific
560. # [07:56] <rniwa> I mean these are just examples
561. # [07:57] <rniwa> but I feel like the current spec is way too complicated to be adopted
562. # [07:57] <Hixie> (if help doesn't exist, the right UI is to remove the item from the menu altogether, which you would do by adding a hidden="" attribute)
563. # [07:57] <rniwa> due to all the fallback consideration
564. # [07:57] <Hixie> i don't understand what is complicated here
565. # [07:57] <Hixie> it's really simple
566. # [07:58] <Hixie> certain elements implement this "command" concept. menus just collect all their commands and render them.
567. # [07:58] <Hixie> where's the problem?
568. # [07:58] <Hixie> the fallback just falls out of the design
569. # [07:58] <Hixie> and doesn't get in the way once it's no longer needed
570. # [07:58] <Hixie> it's essentially free
571. # [07:58] <Hixie> plus, in the future, we reuse all the infrastructure to get <command ref=""> essentially for free again
572. # [07:58] <rniwa> as an author, I don't care about fallbacks
573. # [07:59] <rniwa> I just want to be able to do everything using command element
574. # [07:59] <Hixie> and you can, if you want to
575. # [07:59] <Hixie> meanwhile, authors who _do_ care about fallback, can still do it
576. # [07:59] <rniwa> hm...
577. # [07:59] <Hixie> and authors who have links and buttons in parts of their app that do the same as commands in their menus, in the future, once we add <command ref>, get all the indirection magic for free
578. # [07:59] <Hixie> so they don't have to disable every last menu item that does the same thing
579. # [08:00] <Hixie> they just disable it once and boom, all the menus and toolbars update
580. # [08:02] <rniwa> now I see some command-element-only example in the spec
581. # [08:02] <rniwa> I guess this might work
582. # [08:02] <rniwa> <command ref> thing definitely sounds useful
583. # [08:03] <rniwa> alright, let me look into implementing this thing then
584. # [08:03] <Hixie> cool
585. # [08:04] <rniwa> then I'll know whether I like or hate the spec :)
586. # [08:04] <Hixie> :-)
587. # [08:05] <rniwa> Hixie: btw, I don't quite get what you're seeing in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14337
588. # [08:05] <rniwa> Hixie: are you referring to DOM changes made by scripts or IE?
589. # [08:27] <Hixie> both
590. # [08:28] <Hixie> e.g. do changes from a setInterval()
591. # [08:28] <Hixie> they get undone
592. # [08:28] <Hixie> if you undo immediately after the drag
593. # [08:28] <Hixie> i'm not sure we really want this behaviour; i specced it just cos i was speccing whatever IE did
594. # [08:28] <Hixie> it's probably better to call it a bug
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604. # [09:15] <annevk> Glenn Adams...
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656. # [10:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: so i think it's still not right. :-)
657. # [10:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: + readonly attribute <code><a href=#document>Document</a></code> <a href=#htmldocument title=HTMLDocument>HTMLDocument</a>;
658. # [10:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: the Document interface object is not an instance of Document
659. # [10:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: so the return type should be something else
660. # [10:37] <annevk> what does interface Document {} expose then?
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665. # [10:44] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't understand the question
666. # [10:45] <annevk> I get what you mean now, I think
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668. # [10:48] <annevk> I guess it needs to be defined in terms of http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-relevant-namespace-object and below
669. # [10:51] <zcorpan> "Interface objects are always function objects." - i guess s/Document/Function/ then
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676. # [10:59] <danbri> http://www.downforeveryone.com/www.whatwg.org/
677. # [11:00] <danbri> 'Hey, it's not just you! http://www.whatwg.org/ looks down from here. '
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694. # [12:38] <annevk> why does WebVTT require decimal separators?
695. # [12:40] <annevk> I mean milliseconds
696. # [12:42] <Lachy> Huh? Why shouldn't it? Milliseconds give the required precision.
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699. # [12:47] <annevk> if they happen to zero
700. # [12:48] <annevk> I guess it does not matter much
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705. # [13:15] <annevk> I don't really get these WebVTT settings
706. # [13:17] <annevk> e.g. some line ending in "00:13.000 X A:start" has that A:start to discarded with the current parsing algorithm
707. # [13:17] <annevk> seems wrong
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725. # [14:18] <zcorpan> annevk: why does it seem wrong? that's the same as css decl, basically
726. # [14:21] <annevk> I'm more confused by e.g. D:vertical followed by two spaces
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728. # [14:21] <annevk> and that followed by A:start or some such
729. # [14:22] <annevk> afaict "setting will be set to the second "space"
730. # [14:22] <annevk> or maybe even the first
731. # [14:22] <annevk> which seems highly undesirable
732. # [14:23] <annevk> there's some skip.spaces step missing after you consumed a setting
733. # [14:23] * zcorpan hasn't looked at settings parsing yet
734. # [14:25] <zcorpan> also D: vertical fails to parse
735. # [14:26] <annevk> yeah it does in my validator
736. # [14:26] <annevk> I guess I should upload something so people can teach me how to write code
737. # [14:26] * zcorpan isn't a fan of single-letter settings
738. # [14:27] <annevk> guess I'll continue tomorrow
739. # [14:28] <annevk> will upload something so people can leave comments
740. # [14:30] <annevk> http://quuz.org/webvtt/
741. # [14:30] <annevk> http://quuz.org/webvtt/parser.js
742. # [14:31] <annevk> zcorpan, ^^
743. # [14:33] <zcorpan> found a bug :-)
744. # [14:33] <zcorpan> space after signature should be allowed
745. # [14:33] <divya> zcorpan knows how to crush dreams
746. # [14:34] <zcorpan> :S
747. # [14:34] <divya> :))
748. # [14:34] <annevk> I wonder what's wrong with my SIGNATURE code
749. # [14:36] <zcorpan> 00::51.000 and 00:0:51.000 validate
750. # [14:36] <annevk> yeah I noticed that too
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752. # [14:39] <annevk> fixed that bug
753. # [14:40] <zcorpan> the sig check seems bogus
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755. # [14:43] <annevk> needs to be &&
756. # [14:43] <zcorpan> you could do line.match(/^WEBVTT(( |\t).*)?/) or some such
757. # [14:43] <annevk> also fixed
758. # [14:44] <annevk> could also replace || with &&
759. # [14:44] <annevk> there's no requirements for anything after that tab or space
760. # [14:45] <annevk> although I guess "WEBVTT TEST" should maybe not be valid even though it should be processed
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763. # [14:47] <zcorpan> it's valid
764. # [14:48] <hsivonen> Opera Reader is very cool. however, I'd like to have "tap edge for page turn" in addition to swiping
765. # [14:48] <annevk> zcorpan, not per the syntax section
766. # [14:48] <hsivonen> swiping a lot isn't very ergonomic
767. # [14:48] <zcorpan> annevk: yes it is :)
768. # [14:49] <annevk> oh right
769. # [14:49] <annevk> bah
770. # [14:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: send an email to h&kon :-)
771. # [14:49] <annevk> don't really think it should be valid though
772. # [14:49] <annevk> makes no sense
773. # [14:49] <zcorpan> doesn't manifest do the same thing?
774. # [14:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'll see if there's a www-style thread I could send email to first
775. # [14:50] <annevk> zcorpan, dunno, never wrote a validator for that one
776. # [14:50] <hsivonen> Also, Opera Reader really needs some kind of easy-to-use way of forcing the paged mode on legacy sites
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778. # [14:52] <zcorpan> i suspect that forcing paged mode on legacy sites would often break in more horrible ways than fit-to-width
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787. # [15:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I guess sites that would break horrible wouldn't be very printer-friendly either
788. # [15:18] <hsivonen> maybe the Web isn't printer-friendly in general
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799. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> annevk5, thanks for fixing XMLDocument in DOMPS
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805. # [15:48] <annevk> Ms2ger, hey no worries
806. # [15:49] <annevk> Ms2ger, I was wondering though, should that really be XMLDocument?
807. # [15:49] <annevk> Ms2ger, in that Document == XMLDocument bug people suggested only createDocument should return XMLDocument
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809. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> I dunno, I just defined what Gecko did
810. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> It probably doesn't matter
811. # [15:51] <smaug____> createDocument doesn't always return XMLDocument
812. # [15:51] <Ms2ger> In Gecko
813. # [15:51] <smaug____> yes, in Gecko
814. # [15:51] <smaug____> and I think Acid3 even had some tests for that
815. # [15:52] <smaug____> at least ACID3 is the reason why Gecko's createDocument behaves the way it does
816. # [15:52] <annevk> I doubt Acid3 has the DocumentType nonsense
817. # [15:52] <smaug____> IIRC it does had
818. # [15:52] <annevk> Ms2ger, guess we'll sort it out later then
819. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> It had a lot of nonsense, that much is clear
820. # [15:53] <annevk> trololol
821. # [15:55] * gsnedders is wondering whether E4H is really a good idea at all
822. # [15:55] <gsnedders> E4X is too far one way, E4H is too far the other
823. # [15:55] <annevk> it's H4E man
824. # [15:55] <gsnedders> w/e
825. # [15:55] <annevk> for extra confusion
826. # [15:56] <gsnedders> I care about the semantics of the proposal.
827. # [15:56] <annevk> the proposal had virtually no details though
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897. # [18:44] <Hixie> zcorpan: Function is not a function object (possibly confusingly)
898. # [18:45] <Hixie> zcorpan: Function is just a [Callback=FunctionOnly, NoInterfaceObject] callback interface with one member that takes any any arguments and returns any
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900. # [18:47] <linclark> does anyone know what the current thinking on the time element is?
901. # [18:47] <linclark> I'm looking at this bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13240
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903. # [18:49] <hsivonen> linclark: I expect different people to have different current thinking
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906. # [18:51] <linclark> hsivonen: right, but are there any discussions that are more current
907. # [18:51] <linclark> I'm asking because we're working on implementing a theme_time function in Drupal
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911. # [19:09] <franksalim> Hixie: that is...quotable...and it reminds me of the "a monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?" joke about Haskell...probably because you said "is just a" and then gave a precise and complicated definition. :)
912. # [19:10] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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914. # [19:10] <hsivonen> linclark: I'm not aware of more current discussions, but my mailing list reading isn't up to date
915. # [19:10] <hsivonen> dglazkov: good evening
916. # [19:12] <linclark> hsivonen: ok, thanks... as long as it ends up being one of the proposed alternatives, it shouldn't take long for us to update
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921. # [19:15] <jarek> Hello
922. # [19:15] <jarek> why MEDIA_SYM CSS token is defined like this:
923. # [19:15] <jarek> @{M}{E}{D}{I}{A}
924. # [19:16] <jarek> while CHARSET_SYM token is defined this way:
925. # [19:16] <jarek> "@charset "
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927. # [19:16] <jarek> does it mean that "@cha\rset 'utf-8'" is not a valid charset declaration?
928. # [19:17] <jarek> while something like "@med\ia" would be valid?
929. # [19:19] <jarek> yup, W3C validator fails on @cha\rset "UTF-8";
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931. # [19:24] <jarek> this seems to be rather inconsistent, what is the reason behind not allowing the escapes inside "@charset" or "url("? " or "~="?
932. # [19:29] <jarek> validator marks @med\ia as error as well, I don't get it
933. # [19:29] <zewt> "In fact, it's possible to implement ES functionality with better performance then the native implementations."
934. # [19:29] <zewt> do people realize how silly they sound when they make claims like that
935. # [19:30] <jarek> ahh... it accepts only hex escapes
936. # [19:30] <zewt> there's no such thing as faster than native, sorry, next
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945. # [19:38] <Hixie> franksalim: heh
946. # [19:39] <Hixie> jarek: @charset is special
947. # [19:39] <Hixie> jarek: because we don't want people to have to run a complicated css parser just to get the character encoding which they need to know in order to create a css parser :-)
948. # [19:39] <Hixie> bbiab
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1040. # [23:28] <rniwa> Hixie: yt?
1041. # [23:28] <rniwa> or anyone else familiar with microdata?
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1051. # [23:37] <Hixie> rniwa: here
1052. # [23:38] <rniwa> Hixie: I was a bit confused about DOMSettableTokenList
1053. # [23:38] <rniwa> Hixie: I just filed a bug saying that section 2.8.1 (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-dom-interfaces.html#reflect)
1054. # [23:38] <rniwa> Hixie: should probably define IDL attributes in terms of content attribute
1055. # [23:38] <rniwa> instead of defining in terms of types of IDL attributes
1056. # [23:39] <Hixie> why?
1057. # [23:39] <Hixie> and what does that have to do with DOMSettableTokenList :-)
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1059. # [23:40] <rniwa> Hixie: e.g. if an idl attribute is reflecting a content attribute of the type "unordered set of unique space-separated tokens" then its type will be http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#domsettabletokenlistt or something like
1060. # [23:40] <rniwa> Hixie: because I usually look for the type of content type.
1061. # [23:41] <rniwa> Hixie: when an IDL attribute reflects a content attribute
1062. # [23:41] <rniwa> I usually know the type of content attribute
1063. # [23:41] <rniwa> but not necessarily of the type of idl attribute
1064. # [23:41] <rniwa> anyway, it's not that important though
1065. # [23:41] <Hixie> content attributes don't have a type
1066. # [23:41] <Hixie> well, i mean, they're all strings
1067. # [23:42] <Hixie> or am i misunderstanding...?
1068. # [23:43] <rniwa> Hixie: well but they do have different kinds like space separted tokens, etc...
1069. # [23:43] <rniwa> separated*
1070. # [23:43] <Hixie> oh you mean the conformance requirements for what's allowed in them?
1071. # [23:43] <Hixie> i guess
1072. # [23:43] <Hixie> not sure how you'd use those to define UA requirements
1073. # [23:43] <rniwa> Hixie: sort of
1074. # [23:44] <rniwa> I want a way to lookup the type of idl attribute given a description of content attribute
1075. # [23:44] <Hixie> there's not a 1:1 mapping
1076. # [23:44] <rniwa> hm...
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1078. # [23:44] <rniwa> that explains it but also sucks :(
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1084. # [23:46] <Hixie> welcome to the web
1085. # [23:47] <Hixie> what are you looking up that makes it easier for you to look things up based on the content attribute than the idl type?
1086. # [23:47] <rniwa> Hixie: i was looking at microdata API
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1088. # [23:47] <rniwa> Hixie: and in particular itemProp idl attribute
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1094. # [23:50] <jgraham> zewt: I assume they meant "faster than C++", which could be true
1095. # [23:50] <jgraham> Depending on where the bottlenecks are
1096. # [23:53] <rniwa> jgraham: talking about some JS engine performance?
1097. # [23:53] <Hixie> rniwa: i don't understand why that was easier to do using the content attribute than the idl type
1098. # [23:53] <Hixie> abarth: yt?
1099. # [23:53] <abarth> hi
1100. # [23:53] <rniwa> Hixie: yeah, I guess my comment was useless given the definitions aren't bijective
1101. # [23:53] <Hixie> abarth: the origin spec doesn't have special dispensation for cases where urls with a domain part that are supported by the UA might have per-url origin
1102. # [23:53] <rniwa> Hixie: thought they were bijective
1103. # [23:53] <Hixie> abarth: e.g. an NNTP post
1104. # [23:53] <Hixie> rniwa: k
1105. # [23:54] <rniwa> Hixie: sorry about the noise
1106. # [23:54] <Hixie> rniwa: (one example is that class="" and itemprop="" (className and itemProp) have roughly the same definition, but reflect very differently)
1107. # [23:54] <abarth> Hixie: i see
1108. # [23:54] <Hixie> rniwa: (and indeed className and classList both reflect class="")
1109. # [23:54] <Hixie> rniwa: (in different ways)
1110. # [23:54] <rniwa> :(
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1112. # [23:55] <Hixie> abarth: third bullet point of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#origin
1113. # [23:55] * rniwa is annoyed by the complexity
1114. # [23:55] <Hixie> abarth: er, third <li> i should say
1115. # [23:55] <Hixie> rniwa: dude if you think that's bad, wait til you hear about HTMLFormElement's named property access
1116. # [23:55] <Hixie> rniwa: (see my public g+ post)
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1119. # [23:56] <rniwa> Hixie: yes, I know the badness in that area
1120. # [23:56] <rniwa> Hixie: I've worked on fixing selectionStart/selectionEnd in input/textarea :(
1121. # [23:56] <abarth> Hixie: i guess it boils down to the notion of "support"
1122. # [23:56] <rniwa> they are the worst properties :(
1123. # [23:56] <abarth> <t>If the implementation doesn't support the protocol given by
1124. # [23:56] <abarth> uri-scheme, then return generate a fresh globally unique identifier
1125. # [23:56] <abarth> and return that value.</t>
1126. # [23:56] <Hixie> abarth: it has to not be a fresh one, it has to be teh same one each time
1127. # [23:56] <rniwa> although input.type is pretty bad-ass too
1128. # [23:57] <Hixie> abarth: so e.g. different documents that are in one multipart/something e-mail all get the same origin, but not the same origin as other e-mails on that same IMAP server
1129. # [23:57] <Hixie> rniwa: i mean specifically the named property access stuff on <form>
1130. # [23:57] <rniwa> Hixie: oh, I haven't looked at that one in particular
1131. # [23:58] <abarth> ok
1132. # [23:58] <Hixie> rniwa: it makes the reflection stuff look positively mundane
1133. # [23:58] <jgraham> rniwa: Yeah
1134. # [23:58] <abarth> that's just a question of when you run the algorithm
1135. # [23:58] <Hixie> abarth: how so?
1136. # [23:58] <abarth> you just need to run it once for the whole multi-part package
1137. # [23:58] <abarth> rather than once for each part of the package
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1139. # [23:59] <Hixie> abarth: each part has a differnet url
1140. # [23:59] <Hixie> abarth: so clearly it has to be run for each part
1141. # [23:59] <abarth> won't they be different origins if you're treating the whole URL as the origin?
1142. # [23:59] <abarth> maybe i misunderstood
1143. # Session Close: Sat Oct 22 00:00:00 2011

The end :)