/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 25 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> AryehGregor: any particular aspect of it?
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  8. # [00:18] <rniwa> AryehGregor: btw, we might want to consider supporting contenteditable=plaintext
  9. # [00:18] <rniwa> AryehGregor: it seems like websites like facebook, google+, code editors, etc... are working around the issue
  10. # [00:18] <rniwa> by emulating contenteditable
  11. # [00:19] <rniwa> but it'll be much better if UA just provided a way to enable plain text editing
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  16. # [00:28] <Hixie> hm, i wonder how the existence of at least one vendor having extended TTF to support colour will affect svg fonts
  17. # [00:29] <heycam> Hixie, pointer?
  18. # [00:29] <heycam> Hixie, I'm hoping to work further on the SVG glyphs within opentype proposal
  19. # [00:29] <Hixie> OS X Lion has a colour font for emoji
  20. # [00:30] <heycam> Hixie, they're bitmaps in the font
  21. # [00:30] <heycam> (afaik)
  22. # [00:30] <Hixie> must be pretty huge bitmaps, they scale rather well
  23. # [00:30] <zewt> do they scale well downwards? bitmaps tend to do poorly at that
  24. # [00:30] * heycam should try and get lion at some point
  25. # [00:30] <Hixie> they seemed to work well for me at small and large sizes
  26. # [00:32] <heycam> althought what I had read about this "sbix" table was for the iPhone emoji font
  27. # [00:32] <heycam> so it might be that the Lion one is different
  28. # [00:37] <Hixie> the iphone one is definitely bitmaps
  29. # [00:37] <Hixie> i wonder how big the bitmaps are if it is bitmaps
  30. # [00:37] <Hixie> i'll have to play with it when i get back home to my lion box
  31. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> rniwa, could you file a bug on that? I thought I had one, but it seems not.
  32. # [00:41] <rniwa> AryehGregor: oh w3c?
  33. # [00:41] <rniwa> s/oh/on/
  34. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> rniwa, yeah. There's a link in the spec, at the top: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html
  35. # [00:42] <rniwa> AryehGregor: ah nice
  36. # [00:42] <rniwa> AryehGregor: I should really move my spec to W3C as well
  37. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I was thinking of whether it was worth it to implement it in JS for my reflection tests, but concluded it wasn't anyway, it'd be much easier to just compute expected values for tests by hand.
  38. # [00:44] <Hixie> unless you're playing with some quite dodgy URLs, I doubt any future spec changes will affect you
  39. # [00:44] <rniwa> AryehGregor: filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14554
  40. # [00:44] <Hixie> but that seems like a reaonable conclusion
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  58. # [01:19] <Hixie> heycam: ToUInt32(-1) == 2**32-1?
  59. # [01:19] <Hixie> right?
  60. # [01:19] <bga_> yes
  61. # [01:19] <heycam> Hixie, yep\
  62. # [01:19] <Hixie> k
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  84. # [02:15] <roc> I need to add an API to extract a MediaStream from an HTML media element
  85. # [02:16] <roc> I have to decide whether the stream should represent "whatever's currently playing in the media element" or "just the current resource, until it ends"
  86. # [02:17] <roc> in the latter case, loading a new resource or restarting playback after "ended" would start a new stream
  87. # [02:17] <roc> Hixie: any opinion?
  88. # [02:17] <Hixie> hmm
  89. # [02:17] <Hixie> what's the use case?
  90. # [02:17] <Hixie> pushing to a peer / WebAudio processing?
  91. # [02:17] <Hixie> or saving the resource to disk?
  92. # [02:17] <roc> those are all use-cases
  93. # [02:18] <Hixie> displaying it in a monitor <video>?
  94. # [02:18] <roc> the latter is less interesting I think
  95. # [02:18] <Hixie> if the use case is to take whatever the user is currently watching and essentially fork it for use elsewhere, i'd go with having a "live" copy that just streams whatever is being rendered
  96. # [02:18] <roc> my main use cases are audio/video playback with mixing and processing; stream it out to a peer is a secondary use-case
  97. # [02:18] <Hixie> so e.g. it would start displaying a static image if the media element was paused, etc
  98. # [02:19] <Hixie> though that would act really weird if you then could pause and rewind it
  99. # [02:19] <roc> the main problem with the "whatever's currently playing" approach is that it means the stream can end, and then start producing data again later
  100. # [02:19] <roc> the RTC people don't like that
  101. # [02:19] <Hixie> why would it end?
  102. # [02:20] <roc> if you treat the "ended" state of the media element as ending the stream
  103. # [02:20] <roc> which would be intuitively appealing, and useful as well
  104. # [02:21] <Hixie> if you're just outputting what the media element is playing, i don't think you'd do that
  105. # [02:22] <Hixie> "ended" just means that the current playback position is at the end
  106. # [02:22] <Hixie> doesn't mean that there won't be more later
  107. # [02:22] <roc> then we'd need a different API to let authors load a media resource and get a MediaStream for it that ends when the resource ends
  108. # [02:23] <Hixie> well, i could certainly see a use case for "get a mediastream for a resource", but it wouldn't "end", it would just represent the (possibly finite) resource, right?
  109. # [02:23] <roc> we could have both APIs on the media element, but that might be confusing
  110. # [02:24] <Hixie> i guess it would "end" when the whole resource was obtained
  111. # [02:24] <Hixie> which might be immediately if the resource is cached
  112. # [02:24] <roc> MediaStreams end when they will no longer produce any new data
  113. # [02:25] <Hixie> right
  114. # [02:25] <roc> the MediaStream for a resource ends when we've finished playing it back
  115. # [02:25] <Hixie> so a MediaStream of a finite resource that happens to be already cached would end immediately after providing all the data to whatever consumer exists
  116. # [02:25] <roc> MediaStreams play back in real time, they can't instantly deliver all their data to some consumer
  117. # [02:26] <Hixie> oh
  118. # [02:26] <roc> at least, the way I understand it
  119. # [02:26] <Hixie> well then it doesn't make much sense to get one for a static resource
  120. # [02:26] <Hixie> surely
  121. # [02:26] <roc> sure it does
  122. # [02:26] <Hixie> what if the user wants to fast-forward?
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  124. # [02:27] <Hixie> it'd be really weird to tell the user that he can pause, rewind, etc, but he can't fast-forward ahead of where the mediastream happens to have reached
  125. # [02:27] <roc> you can't fast-forward a MediaStream
  126. # [02:27] <roc> you can pause, but not rewind
  127. # [02:27] <Hixie> especially if the user just gave you the File in question
  128. # [02:28] <roc> if the user just gave you a File then you can make a BlobURL and just play that
  129. # [02:28] <roc> MediaStreams need not be involved
  130. # [02:28] <roc> and then you can do everything
  131. # [02:29] <roc> defining a media processing graph where you can control the playback rate of individual streams gets very problematic
  132. # [02:29] <Hixie> well to answer your original question, i think if mediastream represents live data and only live data, and you create one from an HTMLMediaElement, it should represent whatever frame/audio is currently playing
  133. # [02:29] <Hixie> and it shouldn't ever "end"
  134. # [02:30] <roc> (you end up being able to consume a single stream at different rates, and therefore at different time offsets, which is not really implementable)
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  136. # [02:30] <roc> ok
  137. # [02:31] <roc> then we'll need a separate API to create a MediaStream for a resource that ends when the resource playback ends
  138. # [02:31] <roc> any suggestions on where that should lvie?
  139. # [02:31] <Hixie> what's the use case for that one?
  140. # [02:31] <roc> because if it doesn't live on the media element, then we have to duplicate all the source selection logic and probably more, which would really suck
  141. # [02:32] <Hixie> why wouldn't you just create an HTMLMediaElement that the user can't mess with, and use that to feed the MediaStream?
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  144. # [02:32] <roc> I can do that I guess
  145. # [02:32] <roc> then I have to add an API somewhere to forcibly end the stream
  146. # [02:33] <Hixie> MediaStream.end()
  147. # [02:33] <roc> people want to add features that trigger when streams end
  148. # [02:33] <roc> OK
  149. # [02:33] <Hixie> if it's the kind of feature where precise timing matters, i guess you could just create a MediaStream from a fixed URL, and screw the source selection stuff
  150. # [02:34] <roc> precise timing is not really an issue
  151. # [02:34] <Hixie> if someone needs to pick a source, they can create a <video> and have it do the source selection and then use the result from that
  152. # [02:34] <roc> that's a bit ugly
  153. # [02:34] <Hixie> not the most efficient, certainly
  154. # [02:34] <Hixie> what kind of thing are we triggering on end?
  155. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> Hmm. <http://jsfiddle.net/leaverou/e77P2/> shows a style element being disabled, and then it gets automatically reenabled when you set .textContent on it. Is that supposed to happen?
  156. # [02:35] <roc> disconnecting the stream from downstream mixers, for example
  157. # [02:35] <Hixie> roc: oh if it's just cleanup then yeah, i'd go with an explicit .end().
  158. # [02:35] <Hixie> ok i gotta go, bbl
  159. # [02:35] <roc> ta
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  196. # [04:36] <jarek> what is the more efficient way to convert DOM tree into string (with all HTML tags stripped)?
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  198. # [04:36] <jarek> I have created a new range that wraps the whole tree, then I do:
  199. # [04:37] <jarek> myRange.toString()
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  201. # [04:37] <jarek> but it strips all new lines
  202. # [04:38] <annevk> that sounds like a bug...
  203. # [04:39] <annevk> only Selection should do that
  204. # [04:39] <jarek> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1146730/problem-detecting-newlines-in-javascript-range-object
  205. # [04:40] <jarek> the poster says this behavior could be reproduced on all major browsers
  206. # [04:40] <jarek> (I have checked only Chrome)
  207. # [04:41] <jarek> no, wait... he is using getSelection() method
  208. # [04:42] <annevk> hmm, I thought only Selection.toString() was affected by this
  209. # [04:42] <annevk> but maybe it normalizes its Ranges somehow, that sound weird
  210. # [04:42] <annevk> AryehGregor would prolly know
  211. # [04:43] <jarek> annevk: the specification does not say anything about how new lines should be handled
  212. # [04:43] <jarek> I would expect them to be preserved
  213. # [04:43] <Hixie> jarek: element.textContent
  214. # [04:45] <jarek> Hixie: thanks, exactly what I needed
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  238. # [05:34] <annevk> Hixie, is the whitespace thing clear now?
  239. # [05:34] <annevk> Hixie, note that cue text tokenizing uses a different notion of whitespace (there's a bug on that too)
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  246. # [05:43] <annevk> paul_irish_, querySelectorAll is not discussed on a WHATWG list, it's discussed on public-webapps
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  248. # [06:13] <Hixie> annevk: that part of the parser can never hit a newline, because it is parsing a string that was created by collecting characters that aren't newlines
  249. # [06:13] <annevk> except for FF
  250. # [06:14] <annevk> there's 5 white space characters and you only work with 4 of them
  251. # [06:14] <Hixie> oh right
  252. # [06:14] <Hixie> you confused me with your talk of newlines
  253. # [06:14] <annevk> I think that was sylvia
  254. # [06:15] <annevk> nm
  255. # [06:15] <Hixie> aah, indeed
  256. # [06:15] <Hixie> sorry about that
  257. # [06:15] <Hixie> hmmm
  258. # [06:16] <Hixie> looking at this i think it would just be confusing to list FF as an allowed character
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  260. # [06:16] <Hixie> i think it's the right thing to do to be consistent in the parsing, but not much point allowing it
  261. # [06:16] <Hixie> any opinions?
  262. # [06:16] <annevk> that works for me
  263. # [06:17] <annevk> are you willing to annotate the parser section at some point btw with things that are conformance errors?
  264. # [06:17] <annevk> that'd be so much more useful
  265. # [06:17] <Hixie> i saw the bug about it
  266. # [06:17] <Hixie> i dunno
  267. # [06:17] <Hixie> is it really worth it?
  268. # [06:17] <Hixie> for html it made sense because the parsing is so messed up
  269. # [06:17] <annevk> for http://quuz.org/webvtt/ yes
  270. # [06:17] <Hixie> that you really need to implement it to do conformance checking
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  272. # [06:17] <Hixie> but webvtt is so simple in comparison...
  273. # [06:18] <annevk> still you need to figure out the differences which is kind of awkard
  274. # [06:18] <Hixie> yeah
  275. # [06:18] <annevk> I can imagine browsers also want to say things in their error console
  276. # [06:18] <annevk> the syntax section is useful for authors I guess
  277. # [06:18] <annevk> but the parser section is used by everyone else I'd imagine
  278. # [06:18] <Hixie> it's kind of a pain to add though
  279. # [06:19] <Hixie> i would imagine most syntax checkers would just be implemented as regexp or bnf-like things
  280. # [06:19] <Hixie> you wouldn't want to write a parser, surely
  281. # [06:19] <annevk> I wrote a parser to give better error messages
  282. # [06:19] <annevk> I could at some point also highlight the errors in the input stream this way
  283. # [06:20] <annevk> and you can report multiple errors
  284. # [06:20] <annevk> not just the first instance
  285. # [06:21] <Hixie> i dunno, just doesn't seem that hard to find the errors even if you do the parser by hand
  286. # [06:21] <Hixie> whereas updating the spec to list all the places will mean bugs in the spec all over the place, which confuses people, makes the parser look more complicated than necessary...
  287. # [06:22] <Hixie> i don't think i would have done it for html were it not for the way html is just ridiculously complicated to parse
  288. # [06:25] <annevk> okay that is fair I guess and it is not too hard, just might miss a lot of things
  289. # [06:25] <annevk> and if you want to simplify the parser, pre-process CRLF like you do with zero bytes
  290. # [06:26] <Hixie> yeah, i should do something like that
  291. # [06:26] <Hixie> foolip suggested it already once
  292. # [06:26] <annevk> I also wanted to say that you yourself once said that writing a good validator requires custom code and cannot be done by schema. Even if you're no longer convinced of that I very much think it's true
  293. # [06:26] <Hixie> for writing a good validator for HTML that is certainly true
  294. # [06:26] <Hixie> it's not true for everything
  295. # [06:27] <Hixie> if the language is sane and regular, that's what regular languages are for :-)
  296. # [06:27] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
  297. # [06:27] <Hixie> it rarely works well for XML languages because it is so trivially easy to make an XML language too complicated to sanely describe in a schema
  298. # [06:27] <annevk> WebVTT is not that regular, it's a lot of different syntaxes compounded :)
  299. # [06:28] <Hixie> regular in this sense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_language
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  302. # [06:28] <Hixie> though i've no idea what "it is the preimage of a subset of a finite monoid under a homomorphism from the free monoid on its alphabet" means
  303. # [06:29] <annevk> "it can be defined in monadic second-order logic" makes total sense
  304. # [06:29] <Hixie> man the math and theoretical CS parts of wikipedia are so opaque
  305. # [06:29] <Hixie> anyway
  306. # [06:29] <Hixie> i didn't just mean "simple" :-)
  307. # [06:30] <annevk> fair enough
  308. # [06:30] <Hixie> validating the cue text part probably wouldn't be sane with regexp-like tech
  309. # [06:31] <erlehmann> nothing is sane with regexes
  310. # [06:31] <annevk> I guess once I've fixed some more of the bugs my validator, people can use that to write new validators if they desire
  311. # [06:32] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  312. # [06:32] <annevk> or at least look up the error conditions
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  316. # [06:36] <erlehmann> Ḫ̣̩e̞̺ ̮̣w͎̬̰h̼̜͉̹̳͉͙͚o̮̬̜̟̞ ͙̻W̩̮̪̝a̖̩̣͍̠̜̯̮̺i̱͇̼̗t͎͇̘͖̼͖͈͕ͅs̹̲͎̝̳ ͎̬͔B̟͎̯͔̮͕̰͉ͅe̞̦̭̗͎̩͎̯h͙̳͍̖͚̳i͈̝͔ṋ̭̜d̰͉͇̳̖̩̻̞ ͔̳̝̰̭͍ͅT̳̰̦̺̩̜̳̖h͎̩̜̞̬̬̻̖e̪͕͇̻̺̱ ̘R͕̯̮̩̺e͇̺g̱ẹ̖x͓͇.̟
  317. # [06:36] <erlehmann> ZALGO!
  318. # [06:36] <Hixie> oh dear
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  320. # [06:48] <Hixie> any opinions on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14101 ? (queuing a task to fire an event on <details> when open="" is added or removed)
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  333. # [07:27] <zewt> feels like people are selectively reading threads, heh
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  335. # [07:28] <zewt> <me> do X <me> do X <sicking> do X <other people> thanks sicking
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  343. # [07:56] <nessy> offff! glad that newline change to WebVTT time specs didn't get included - that just didn't feel right
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  345. # [07:58] <annevk> newline change?
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  347. # [07:58] <annevk> form feed is just some weird whitespace character
  348. # [07:58] <annevk> we decided it would still be parsed as whitespace, but would not be conforming
  349. # [08:00] <annevk> Hixie, seems like a good idea
  350. # [08:00] <annevk> Hixie, otherwise you have synchronous mutation events
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  378. # [09:31] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14210 do we want "http://foo bar" to be a resolvable url?
  379. # [09:35] <mkanat> zcorpan: It would seem that the last comment indicates so, no?
  380. # [09:41] <annevk> I guess I don't really care
  381. # [09:41] <annevk> but I would have to update XMLHttpRequest and maybe CORS if everything resolves
  382. # [09:41] <annevk> and we should really define URLs somewhere
  383. # [09:43] <zcorpan> maybe someone from mozilla cares about this
  384. # [09:46] <annevk> could ask the network guys
  385. # [09:46] <annevk> from Opera that is
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  445. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> http://www.lemonodor.com/archives/images/dijkstra-quick-n-dirty.jpg
  446. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> http://blografia.net/vicm3/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/doing-it-wrong1.jpg
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  465. # [15:36] <jgraham> http://blog.jquery.com/2011/10/24/announcing-the-jquery-standards-team/ - with the word "sub-team" appearing in the first sentence, these people are clearly ahead of the game
  466. # [15:36] <jgraham> I suggest that the subteam be further split into task forces
  467. # [15:38] <annevk> is this the new http://www.css11.navy.mil/ ?
  468. # [15:38] <annevk> they never did anything either
  469. # [15:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: i think you have misunderstood. you don't split subteams into task forces. you introduce task forces for each pair of subteams.
  470. # [15:40] <annevk> doesn't that depend on the chair?
  471. # [15:40] <jgraham> zcorpan: You do both, afaict
  472. # [15:40] <Philip`> But how will the task forces coordinate with each other, unless you set up a task subforce for each pair of task forces?
  473. # [15:40] <zcorpan> use the force
  474. # [15:41] <annevk> and extra mailing lists
  475. # [15:41] <annevk> one can never have enough mailing lists
  476. # [15:41] <jgraham> Philip`: It can all be neat as long as you have the number of top level task forces as a power of two
  477. # [15:42] <jgraham> Or, I guess that's not really how it works
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  480. # [15:48] <hsivonen> annevk: awesome URL for css11
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  484. # [15:48] <miketaylr> i'm tempted to call the EMO office at http://www.css11.navy.mil/Contact.htm
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  486. # [15:50] <hasather> miketaylr: this is him: http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/129/82213099634047f79eb60293e6b17156/l.jpg
  487. # [15:50] <miketaylr> D:
  488. # [15:50] <miketaylr> maybe i won't then...
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  493. # [15:56] <karlcow> maybe the two subteams parts have confidence on the pillow. (Pardon my French)
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  497. # [16:12] * jgraham wonders what pillows have to do with anything
  498. # [16:13] <hsivonen> is there a spec for parsing HTTP headers?
  499. # [16:14] <hsivonen> in particular, is the a parsing spec for the Content-Type header?
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  503. # [16:19] <karlcow> jgraham: it is because you are not French. anythni
  504. # [16:19] <karlcow> ooops
  505. # [16:20] <karlcow> anything which needs coordination, resolution in France goes on a trajectory which crosses a bed at a point in time.
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  507. # [16:21] <jgraham> Politics is obviously more sexy in France
  508. # [16:21] <karlcow> jgraham: definitely :)
  509. # [16:23] <kennyluck> Everytime I see something like "The reality is that whilst many of us would like to see change, due to … lengthy formal processes", I get angry.
  510. # [16:23] <zewt> the word "whilst" automatically makes me take someone less seriously
  511. # [16:31] <broquaint> Where do the docs for the URL API mentioned in this change live? http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6744&to=6745
  512. # [16:32] <miketaylr> https://github.com/abarth/url-spec ?
  513. # [16:34] <broquaint> Thanks, miketaylr :)
  514. # [16:34] <miketaylr> np
  515. # [16:35] <karlcow> kennyluck: yup, it seems like there is a magical process which shorten agreements in distributed communities.
  516. # [16:36] <karlcow> more exactly it shows a poor understanding of what are communities and their social dynamics.
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  518. # [16:40] <zewt> formal processes != social dynamics, heh
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  541. # [17:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I pushed the html parser patch.
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  545. # [17:58] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  557. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> Evening, dglazkov
  558. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> broquaint, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  559. # [18:20] <miketaylr> ah, better link
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  562. # [18:24] <broquaint> Brilliant, thanks :)
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  583. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> rniwa, thanks for the bug.
  584. # [18:55] <rniwa> AryehGregor: np
  585. # [18:56] <zewt> an unlikely thing to be thankful for
  586. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> jarek/annevk (in case you read logs), I don't think Range.toString() should do that, but I don't think I ever wrote tests for it, so I dunno how browsers actually behave.
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  588. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> On reflection, my guess is that "strips all newlines" means "doesn't add newlines", i.e., <div>foo</div><div>bar</div> -> "foobar". This is expected behavior.
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  590. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> At least, for spec writers.
  591. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> For authors, not so much.
  592. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  593. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Good grief, does Google Docs really have to advertise every little new not-even-deployed feature with an obnoxious popup when I visit it?
  594. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Part of the reason I use Linux is to keep annoying unsolicited popups to a few per week max.
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  619. # [19:36] <paul_irish> there isn't a standard for test cases is there? like standalone pages with pass/fail.. seems that everyone has their own setup, yah?
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  621. # [19:39] <miketaylr> paul_irish: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Authoring/
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  623. # [19:41] <paul_irish> thx
  624. # [19:44] <rniwa> AryehGregor: every developer thinks their feature is the best thing that happened to the world
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  626. # [19:44] <rniwa> it's hard to convince them his/her feature is not worthly of a big giant popup i guess
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  660. # [20:38] <Hixie> smaug____: re http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14534 - what if there's no documentElement?
  661. # [20:38] <Hixie> smaug____: shouldn't we just target the Document if there's no body?
  662. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Crash
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  664. # [20:39] <smaug____> Hixie: just a second, testing..
  665. # [20:39] <Hixie> if you have a test case i can poke at, that would be great
  666. # [20:39] <smaug____> Hixie: and currently implementation target documentElement if there is no body
  667. # [20:39] <smaug____> implementations
  668. # [20:40] <Hixie> IE/opera/mozilla/webkit ?
  669. # [20:40] <Hixie> wow
  670. # [20:40] <Hixie> well if there's interop who am i to argue, i guess
  671. # [20:41] <smaug____> Hixie: I just uploaded a patch to make Gecko to work like IE9 and Webkit
  672. # [20:41] <smaug____> Opera had still some issues with my test case
  673. # [20:41] <smaug____> but let me test
  674. # [20:41] <Hixie> looks like webkit doesn't fire the event in the no-dE case
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  676. # [20:43] <Hixie> yeah i can't get opera to remove the body or html nodes
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  678. # [20:44] <smaug____> you can remove body in opera
  679. # [20:45] <Hixie> as soon as i do, a new one replaces it
  680. # [20:45] <Hixie> oh, that's only while parsing
  681. # [20:45] <Hixie> ok, onload i can remove it
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  683. # [20:45] <smaug____> oh, removing root has strange effects in Opera
  684. # [20:45] <smaug____> the ui isn't updated, but event handling breaks down or something
  685. # [20:46] <Hixie> i don't get any events if there's no body
  686. # [20:46] <Hixie> similar to what the other browsers do when there's no root element
  687. # [20:46] <Hixie> so i guess they're just sending the events to the body element or nowhere
  688. # [20:46] <Hixie> whereas webkit sends it to the body element or the root element or nowhere
  689. # [20:46] <Hixie> haven't tested IE, don't have it easily accessible right now
  690. # [20:46] <Hixie> ok
  691. # [20:47] <Hixie> i guess i'll spec that the order of precedence is activeElement, body, root element, nowhere
  692. # [20:47] <Hixie> sound right?
  693. # [20:47] <smaug____> sounds right
  694. # [20:47] <smaug____> that is how gecko and webkit works now, and I think also IE9
  695. # [20:47] <Hixie> k
  696. # [20:47] <smaug____> though I haven't tested the nowhere case in it
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  701. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Opera's DOM handling is just generally messed up.
  702. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> It also behaves very strangely with doctype nodes, I've found.
  703. # [20:55] <smaug____> Hixie: just curious, has there ever been talk about reviewing spec changes before changing the spec?
  704. # [20:55] <smaug____> similar to how software/code development happens
  705. # [20:55] <Hixie> there's been talk, but since nobody is willing to review the changes at the rate i make them, it wouldn't really work
  706. # [20:55] <smaug____> are you sure it wouldn't work?
  707. # [20:56] <Hixie> have you seen the rate at which i make changes?
  708. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Also, no one but Hixie actually understands more than about half the spec.
  709. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> Does Hixie?
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  711. # [20:56] <smaug____> AryehGregor: that is no good argument.
  712. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> smaug____, well, it's really a matter of resources. We have *very* few people willing to put much time into spec editing.
  713. # [20:57] <smaug____> I do understand most of Gecko's event handling, yet I do want someone to review my patches
  714. # [20:57] <Hixie> i don't really see how it would be better to do review-then-commit instead of commit-then-review, anyway
  715. # [20:57] <smaug____> AryehGregor: I know, it is a problem to have so few having time for spec editing
  716. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> smaug____, if implementers devoted more resources to it, we might have the capacity to do more review. But as it stands, we don't have enough people to write the specs in the first place.
  717. # [20:57] <smaug____> but reviewing is different thing
  718. # [20:57] <Hixie> in practice the patches do get reviewed, and when there's a problem, it's reverted pretty quickly.
  719. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> smaug____, there is a mailing list that all the changes get posted to, but no way for people to sign off on them.
  720. # [20:58] <michaelw> Hixie: a proposed/stable split wouldn't be bad, IMO
  721. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> If someone wanted to make a system that let people mark diffs as reviewed or approved or whatever, I'm sure no one would expect.
  722. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> michaelw, then you have to deal with merges.
  723. # [20:58] <Hixie> michaelw: yeah, that's been suggested
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  725. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> Since Hixie still uses SVN . . . :)
  726. # [20:58] <Hixie> michaelw: nobody's volunteered to maintain that either :-)
  727. # [20:59] <michaelw> AryehGregor: why is that a problem? that's how much software development works...
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  729. # [20:59] <Hixie> smaug____: what might make sense is to have two trees, and to have one be what i edit, and another be what i edit but only with the patches up to the oldest not-reviewed patch
  730. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> michaelw, if it has enough resources, sure.
  731. # [20:59] <Hixie> smaug____: we could automate that that pretty well
  732. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Also, the spec automatically gets review before implementation, because the implementers review it to some degree.
  733. # [20:59] <smaug____> Hixie: in software development review-then-commit has so far been better than the opposite
  734. # [20:59] <Hixie> smaug____: so people could look at the patches, and if they ok them, the tree moves on
  735. # [21:00] * AryehGregor agrees that review-then-commit works better, but *only* if you have suitable review resources
  736. # [21:00] <Hixie> smaug____: software development has some key differences: there's multiple checking in, and it matters if the code doesn't compile
  737. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> If you don't have enough review resources to promptly review every revision, review-then-commit simply doesn't work.
  738. # [21:00] <michaelw> Hixie: from experience, the overhead is little. you would commit to a "proposed" branch, and when people sign-off of a commit, or there has been no outcry, you merge every now and then
  739. # [21:00] <Hixie> michaelw: if you're willing to do the "sign-off of a commit, or there has been no outcry, you merge every now and then" part, go for it
  740. # [21:00] <smaug____> AryehGregor: we haven't even tried the "review-before-commit" approach for HTML spec, or WebApps WG specs
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  742. # [21:01] <zewt> nothin' like more layers of procedure
  743. # [21:01] <smaug____> AryehGregor: have you tried implementing anything from spec drafts. It is quite frustrating that you know even before reading the spec that it will have bugs which need to be fixed before implementing it
  744. # [21:02] <Hixie> basically at the moment we could add review-then-commit or proposed/stable as a trivial layer on top of what we have now, without it affecting me at all
  745. # [21:02] <Hixie> so anyone who wants to do either of those should just set it up
  746. # [21:02] <Hixie> smaug____: that applies to all specs
  747. # [21:02] <michaelw> Hixie: actually, I might, a bit later this year. have to convince $COMPANY to allocate resources
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  751. # [21:03] <Hixie> michaelw: cool. it would be awesome to have a more stable branch.
  752. # [21:03] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  753. # [21:03] <zewt> smaug: heh, well, trying to reliably find bugs in a spec without implementing it is like trying to find bugs in source without compiling it
  754. # [21:04] <michaelw> zewt: good observation, hence that's what I'm doing :)
  755. # [21:05] <smaug____> Hixie: if http://twitter.com/#!/WHATWG shows all the changes to HTML spec, it isn't *that* many changes per day
  756. # [21:05] <smaug____> there sure are several possible reviewers
  757. # [21:05] <zewt> michaelw: reviewing a spec change by eye is not testing it in the same way as compiling and testing a code change
  758. # [21:05] <smaug____> and most of the changes, I hope, would be trivial to review
  759. # [21:05] <zewt> you'll find more bugs than one pair of eyes, of course
  760. # [21:05] <Hixie> smaug____: nothing is stopping you from setting it up. do it! :-) i'm certainly all for more review.
  761. # [21:06] <smaug____> Hixie: so, would you upload patches to bugzilla for each patch :)
  762. # [21:06] <zewt> but you won't fix the "implementing a draft spec finds bugs" problem, any more than you can fix the "your code doesn't compile on the first attempt" "problem" :)
  763. # [21:06] <Hixie> smaug____: no, i'd just check them into svn, and that would be my working copy, and the reviewed copy would be a separate tree
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  765. # [21:07] <smaug____> well, how could I see the patch then
  766. # [21:07] <Hixie> smaug____: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker lists them
  767. # [21:07] <smaug____> I hope there is some better tool for svn
  768. # [21:08] <Hixie> well it's an open svn repo so any tool you like can do it
  769. # [21:08] <zewt> sort of seems like the case for git
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  771. # [21:08] <zewt> not that i'd argue heavily for git (i use it, but ... it's cranky)
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  773. # [21:10] <zewt> has anyone implemented BlobBuilder at all? (it's not in FF6 or Chrome stable)
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  779. # [21:12] <smaug____> zewt: it is in FF
  780. # [21:12] <smaug____> Moz prefixed, IIRC
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  784. # [21:12] <smaug____> zewt: isn't FF6 kind of ol
  785. # [21:12] <smaug____> d
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  790. # [21:13] <zewt> dunno, the "new version every 3 hours" thing gets tiresome
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  792. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> Chrome stable, you mean?
  793. # [21:13] <smaug____> zewt: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=648997
  794. # [21:13] <smaug____> that says FF6
  795. # [21:14] <zewt> (and it'll be a long time before I'm willing to trust Firefox to autoupdate, I always back up my profile, make sure extensions still work, etc. before committing)
  796. # [21:14] <zewt> k
  797. # [21:14] * Ms2ger shrugs
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  804. # [21:26] <_bga> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/img/mirtchov/plan9-normal.png << Opera & plan9
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  807. # [21:29] <Hixie> blimey there's a lot of <track> bugs. ok, guess i know what i'm doing this afternoon.
  808. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> Emails? :)
  809. # [21:30] <Hixie> soon, soon.
  810. # [21:30] <Hixie> i'm at record low numbers of bugs
  811. # [21:30] <Hixie> record in like a year
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  813. # [21:32] <smaug____> time to file some more bugs :)
  814. # [21:32] <Hixie> noooooo
  815. # [21:32] <Hixie> at some point soon i'm going to switch back to e-mail
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  817. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> Then we'd better get in our bugs before that
  818. # [21:34] <Hixie> just don't file a bug that's too much work, cos that will then make me switch early :-)
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  843. # [22:09] <jgraham> Hmm, we can't even manage review-then-commit for testcases and they are updated *way* less often than the spec
  844. # [22:10] <jgraham> And not only will the tools not save us, they don't even exist
  845. # [22:10] <jgraham> Seriously, there are like 0 good code review tools for mercurial and 0 I have seen for svn
  846. # [22:11] <jgraham> I don't know how people cope
  847. # [22:11] <jgraham> Are they all emailing patches around or something?
  848. # [22:11] * AryehGregor cough git cough
  849. # [22:11] <jgraham> git has one code review tool which might be good
  850. # [22:12] <zcorpan> foolip: maybe supporting comments in cue data is a bad idea, regardless of syntax
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  852. # [22:12] <jgraham> In that I have heard it is a bit like the rather excellent homebrew thing we use at opera
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  861. # [22:36] <zewt> maybe the spec comment form should throw away inputs with no vowels, heh
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  867. # [22:47] <zcorpan> zewt: Hixie accepts patches :)
  868. # [22:47] <zcorpan> zewt: i had an idea the other week about counting keystrokes to prevent bugs where the reporter pasted something
  869. # [22:48] <zcorpan> but didn't look into implementing that
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  873. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> One helpful change would be to auto-reject things that have a significant portion of the instructions for submitting a bug (or the introduction text in general). Those make up a decent chunk of the junk bugs.
  874. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> You could probably do a really simple entropy analysis to find the keyboard-mashing junk bugs, too.
  875. # [23:01] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  876. # [23:02] <zewt> zcorpan: well, i'm not the one that has to spend time cleaning them up :)
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  884. # [23:39] * Quits: jarek__ (~jarek@bcx191.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Quit: Leaving)
  885. # [23:41] <zewt> so tired of the ridiculous "encryption is useless without a trusted certificate" from people who should know better
  886. # [23:43] <_bga> trusted certificate is another way to get your money
  887. # [23:43] <zewt> that's a separate issue, heh
  888. # [23:48] <abarth> Hixie: http://html.spec.whatwg.org/ has broken images and is missing the style sheet
  889. # [23:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: afaik, the answer is "no" (re content-type header parsing)
  890. # [23:51] <Hixie> abarth: yeah, that url isn
  891. # [23:51] <Hixie> 't live yet
  892. # [23:51] <abarth> ah
  893. # [23:51] <abarth> ok
  894. # [23:51] <abarth> what's the best way to hack into the Referer calculation in the spec
  895. # [23:52] <abarth> ?
  896. # [23:52] <Hixie> have me change it :-)
  897. # [23:52] <abarth> 2.7 Fetching resources ?
  898. # [23:52] <abarth> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Meta_referrer
  899. # [23:52] <Hixie> it happens in the "fetch" algorith, yeah
  900. # [23:52] <abarth> is the context
  901. # [23:52] <abarth> i'm trying to write the "semantics" section
  902. # [23:53] <Hixie> ah, i see
  903. # [23:53] <Hixie> ok
  904. # [23:53] <Hixie> hopld on
  905. # [23:54] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  906. # [23:54] <zcorpan> abarth: what's the difference between default and always? (use case for always?)
  907. # [23:55] <Hixie> zcorpan: https
  908. # [23:55] <abarth> zcorpan: suppose you want to move your search engine over to HTTPS but folks are sad that they don't get referrers anymore
  909. # [23:55] <Hixie> abarth: ok yeah. You'd override step 3 (I recommend just giving an entirely new replacement text), and then providing a replacement for the relevant paragraph in step 4
  910. # [23:55] <zcorpan> aha
  911. # [23:56] <abarth> Hixie: ok, I didn't see the HTTPS -> HTTP supression there, but maybe i need to override that from HTTP
  912. # [23:56] <Hixie> abarth: you might also need something in the HTTP spec, i think that may be where that is, yeah
  913. # [23:56] <abarth> ok
  914. # [23:56] <abarth> i think techincally its illegal in HTTP to send the origin in the Referer header
  915. # [23:56] <abarth> but Firefox has had an option to do that for a while
  916. # [23:57] <zcorpan> abarth: does origin act like default or like always?
  917. # [23:57] <Hixie> abarth: (if you don't find it there, add it to your new text, and if your new text doesn't end up in the spec for whatever reason, let me know and i'll fix the spec for that particular part of it anyway)
  918. # [23:57] <abarth> ok
  919. # Session Close: Wed Oct 26 00:00:00 2011

The end :)