/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 27 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <zewt> constructors that return a different type? that sounds ... evil
  4. # [00:00] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  5. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> zewt: Agreed.
  6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Either have real constructors or an honest factory.
  7. # [00:01] <zewt> also wouldn't translate well to most other languages (even if that's not a top concern for web APIs)
  8. # [00:03] <smaug____> zewt: huh, where was such ctors suggested
  9. # [00:04] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  10. # [00:04] <smaug____> oh, webapps
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  12. # [00:04] * smaug____ kicks heycam
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  14. # [00:06] <bencc> is there a spec about webcam other than webrtc?
  15. # [00:06] <bencc> I mean, will ie10 be able to stream webcam without supporting webrtc?
  16. # [00:06] <smaug____> you mean using camera input ?
  17. # [00:06] <smaug____> there is some draft from DAP
  18. # [00:07] <bencc> DAP?
  19. # [00:07] <bencc> IE10 won't support plugins
  20. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> zewt: We really don't care at all other non-JS languages. But it's still bad.
  21. # [00:07] <bencc> but html5 doesn't have support for p2p connections and media streaming yet
  22. # [00:08] <bencc> so there is a gap
  23. # [00:08] <smaug____> bencc: DAP WG in W3C
  24. # [00:08] <Hixie> bencc: yes it does
  25. # [00:08] <bencc> Hixie: ?
  26. # [00:08] <Hixie> bencc: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video-conferencing-and-peer-to-peer-communication
  27. # [00:09] <bencc> Hixie: thanks. how does it relates to webrtc?
  28. # [00:09] <bencc> and do you know if any browser support it?
  29. # [00:09] <Hixie> you mean the w3c webrtc thing?
  30. # [00:09] * Joins: puppen (~einPaarPu@60-240-245-17.static.tpgi.com.au)
  31. # [00:10] <bencc> yes
  32. # [00:10] <Hixie> the w3c webrtc thing is a fork of the text above
  33. # [00:11] <bencc> so which one is the "standard"?
  34. # [00:11] <smaug____> there isn't anything even close to stable spec yet
  35. # [00:11] <smaug____> afaik
  36. # [00:11] <Hixie> whatdo you mean by "standard"?
  37. # [00:11] <bencc> it seems that chrome, firefox and opera are going to support webrtc
  38. # [00:11] <smaug____> for video or audio streaming, not audio handling in general
  39. # [00:11] <bencc> but ie10 and safari?
  40. # [00:13] <smaug____> ask MS and Apple;)
  41. # [00:13] <Hixie> beats me
  42. # [00:13] <Hixie> i can't even work out which one chrome, firefox and opera are implementing :-)
  43. # [00:14] <Hixie> (not that i've investigated, been too busy with other things)
  44. # [00:14] <bencc> I see this in IE: http://html5labs.interoperabilitybridges.com/prototypes/media-capture-api/media-capture-api/info
  45. # [00:14] <zewt> ("forkable specs are bad, see watch we'll show you why!")
  46. # [00:14] <bencc> not sure if it supports streaming
  47. # [00:15] <Hixie> zewt: yeah pretty much
  48. # [00:16] <smaug____> bencc: that page is talking about DAP spec
  49. # [00:16] <Hixie> w3c really lost all credibility with their no-forking argument after that
  50. # [00:16] <bencc> smaug____: what does DAP means?
  51. # [00:17] <zewt> Hixie: are the specs conflicting? (same interface or renamed interfaces)
  52. # [00:17] <Hixie> zewt: yes
  53. # [00:17] <smaug____> bencc: the page is also talking about HTML Speech, which will probably rely on webrtc to get microphone input
  54. # [00:17] <smaug____> bencc: Device APIs and Policy Working Group
  55. # [00:17] <smaug____> DAP WG
  56. # [00:17] <Hixie> zewt: (in that they forked the whatwg one, and i haven't changed the whatwg since and they have changed their incompatibly)
  57. # [00:18] <bencc> this stuff is more complicated than programming :)
  58. # [00:19] <zewt> it's just complicated on a somewhat different axis :)
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  61. # [00:25] <heycam> smaug____, is it really controversial to write things like `function Element(tagname) { return document.createElement(tagname); } var e = new Element("div");`?
  62. # [00:25] <heycam> `new Element("div")` looks like a lovely pattern to me
  63. # [00:25] <heycam> I mean, it reads pretty nicely
  64. # [00:26] <smaug____> but you get different interface back
  65. # [00:26] <smaug____> that is very strange
  66. # [00:26] <smaug____> and so far not used anywhere else in web platform
  67. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> heycam: new Element.Div() reads just as well without being a factory in disguise.
  68. # [00:29] <smaug____> heycam: also, what should new Element("a") return? an HTML Element or SVG Element?
  69. # [00:29] <Hixie> except you then have to create a mapping for all the elements which is really quite ugly
  70. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Or hell, new Element.div(), so you can do new Element["div"]() easier.
  71. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You're talking about something hidden in the implementation which is completely irrelevant to real people.
  72. # [00:29] <smaug____> TabAtkins: how does that work with SVG vs HTML ?
  73. # [00:30] <heycam> smaug____, at least the returned thing is instanceof Element...
  74. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> smaug____: HTML wins! Woo!
  75. # [00:30] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's not hidden, it's right there on Element
  76. # [00:30] <heycam> smaug____, the new Element("a") question is good
  77. # [00:30] <heycam> but you get the same thing with Elemetnt.a()
  78. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> (SVG is trying to put some effort into unifying style/script/a with HTML.)
  79. # [00:31] <zewt> heycam: everyone expects "new XXX()" to return an XXX, whether or not it's technically required; a factory doesn't make that implication
  80. # [00:31] <smaug____> heycam: I'm not saying new Element["a"]() is any better
  81. # [00:31] <zewt> best to honor the basic assumptions of what a constructor does
  82. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> zewt: Agreed. That's my "or be an honest factory" objection.
  83. # [00:32] <heycam> new new new new new new function Constructors4Life() { return Constructors4Life }
  84. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> heycam: Can you stack news like that?
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  86. # [00:33] <heycam> oh what, maybe not :)
  87. # [00:33] <heycam> you need parens it seems
  88. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> That's what I thought. ^_^
  89. # [00:33] <heycam> new (new (new ...
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  91. # [00:34] <zewt> Could not join server since it couldn't be found.
  92. # [00:34] <zewt> hay wrong window
  93. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Slightly unfortunate. Having to do (new Foo()).bar() is slightly annoying.
  94. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> But shrug, minor inconvenience.
  95. # [00:35] <zewt> similar annoyance to having to parenthesize functions
  96. # [00:35] <Hixie> i think the quasi strings are a more interesting approach than all the above, personally
  97. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Disagree. Quasi strings are a great complement, but they don't let you easily, say, make an element with a bag of properties.
  98. # [00:37] <Hixie> bag of properties?
  99. # [00:39] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  100. # [00:39] <Hixie> you can trivially do that in a helper function: function createElementWithBag(name, bag) { var r = document.createElement(name); for (var i in bag) r[i] = bag[i]; return r; }
  101. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Hixie: new Video({autoplay: false, loop:true}) or something.
  102. # [00:39] <Hixie> we don't need to provide an API for that
  103. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I know you hate convenience APIs.
  104. # [00:39] <Hixie> i don't hate convenience APIs, I hate wasting our time adding stuff to the platform that is trivially already possible when we have way bigger fish to fry
  105. # [00:39] <Hixie> it's a huge opportunity cost
  106. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> You go fry those bigger fish. I'll cheerlead for making the fish easier to catch.
  107. # [00:41] <Hixie> you really think adding an API that does the equivalent of literally one line of code that can be banged out in 10 seconds in going to be a good use of our time?
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  109. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yes, when it improves consistency, readability, and writeability and is used so often.
  110. # [00:45] <Hixie> wow
  111. # [00:45] <Hixie> what other trivial things do you think we should add?
  112. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Ponies, if you please?
  113. # [00:45] <Hixie> i'm not being sarcastic. i'm honestly curious.
  114. # [00:46] <Hixie> if it's a short list, it might make sense to just create a JS file that browsers are required to run by default or something.
  115. # [00:46] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.89.72) (Quit: othermaciej)
  116. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> The two painfully annoying parts of the DOM that I regularly experience are (1) element creation and (2) meaurement/positioning. Both of these can be fixed by libraries, but are worthwhile fixing in the core.
  117. # [00:46] <Hixie> i'm all for making element creation easier, but what's hard about it is creating trees, not creating an element and setting some properties
  118. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> (Not all of the measurement features are actually doable in current JS, but a lot are.)
  119. # [00:47] <Hixie> the measurement/positioning thing is hopefully something that can be solved in CSSOM using some of the things i proposed a decade or so ago, or something derived from it
  120. # [00:47] <Hixie> anne's on that, i think
  121. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Trees are easy. "new Element.div({props}, "some text" , new Element.p({}, "more text in a <p>"))
  122. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Anne or me or roc, yeah.
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  124. # [00:49] <Hixie> that's harder than `<div props>{text}<p>{moretext}`, or whatever syntax we come up with based on quasis
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  126. # [00:49] <Hixie> e4x-like syntax
  127. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Agreed, if your elements and attributes are known at write-time.
  128. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> The function appraoch is easier if you only know them at runtime.
  129. # [00:49] <Hixie> and uglier, imho, than Element.create("div", {props}, ["some text", Element.create("p", ["more text"])])
  130. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Both are good. ^_^
  131. # [00:50] <Hixie> but in either case i agree that that's worth adding
  132. # [00:50] <Hixie> it was the implication of "Quasi strings are a great complement, but they don't let you easily, say, make an element with a bag of properties" that i object to
  133. # [00:50] <smaug____> In many cases innerHTML works quite well
  134. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Personal taste on that I guess. I like constructors better than factories, and omitting arrays when possible (since ES6 should have a way to expand arrays into varargs).
  135. # [00:50] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  136. # [00:50] <Hixie> namely that "easily, say, make an element with a bag of properties" is a use case that on its own should be fixed
  137. # [00:51] <Hixie> smaug____: innerHTML fails hard because it doesn't give you compile-time syntax checking
  138. # [00:51] <Hixie> smaug____: it also fails even harder due to XSS
  139. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Plus, injection woo!
  140. # [00:51] <Hixie> smaug____: (it makes injection easier than doing it right)
  141. # [00:52] <smaug____> I don't understand how Element.create gives syntax checking...
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  143. # [00:53] <Hixie> smaug____: you can't do the equivalent of <b>x<i>y</b>z</i> with it
  144. # [00:53] <smaug____> creating Element.create("<") shouldn't work
  145. # [00:53] <smaug____> ah, you mean that
  146. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Plus, it's theoretically possible to do content-model checking among the children passed to the function.
  147. # [00:54] <Hixie> well, it would be in some languages
  148. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> Dunno if that's a good idea or not.
  149. # [00:54] <Hixie> i don't think we'll see that in JS any time soon
  150. # [00:54] <Hixie> and the HTML rules are probably far too complex to be sanely represented in a type system
  151. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah, likely.
  152. # [00:55] <bga_> heh
  153. # [00:56] <bga_> sec
  154. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Well, you don't need to use a formal type system to verify parameters passed to a function. That can be done manually.
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  156. # [00:57] <othermaciej> I suspect not even Haskell's type system could do all HTML5 content model checks correctly
  157. # [00:57] <Hixie> TabAtkins: oh i meant at compile time
  158. # [00:57] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you could do runtime checking even of innerHTML, that's not so interesting
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  160. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You're right.
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  165. # [01:06] <bga_> http://pastie.org/2764698
  166. # [01:06] <bga_> i hope it will in future web
  167. # [01:07] <bga_> and smart compiler can validate html
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  169. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> bga_: We (subset of Chrome team working on this stuff) want something very similar to that.
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  174. # [01:12] <bga_> i need time to implement it
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  188. # [01:43] <bga_> lol http://www.firefoxwithbing.com/
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  210. # [02:28] <Hixie> anne: need your input on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14284
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  329. # [08:47] <bitgod> hello?
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  393. # [11:01] <zcorpan> http://doctype.com/figure-used-background-images
  394. # [11:01] <annevk> ah, Mike must be traveling
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  396. # [11:02] <annevk> I guess I should write a weekly
  397. # [11:02] <annevk> hmm
  398. # [11:07] <annevk> hsivonen, what did you implement for http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14284 ?
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  400. # [11:07] <annevk> hsivonen, I don't really mind either way
  401. # [11:07] <annevk> hsivonen, it seems sicking feels somewhat strongly for lots of sniffing though he has no figures to back that up...
  402. # [11:08] <annevk> hsivonen, I would personally be fine with the simple rules or GTFO
  403. # [11:09] <erlehmann> hahaha
  404. # [11:09] <erlehmann> tha attribute styling stuff is COMEDY GOLD
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  406. # [11:12] <annevk> erlehmann: ?
  407. # [11:14] <hsivonen> annevk: I implemented the following:
  408. # [11:14] <erlehmann> annevk, Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> suggested using <div type="nav"> instead of <nav> for IE compatibility.
  409. # [11:14] <erlehmann> and then simon pieters was like “<div type="nav"> is not stylable in IE6 because it doesn't support
  410. # [11:14] <erlehmann> attribute selectors.”
  411. # [11:14] <erlehmann> i pooped a little.
  412. # [11:14] <hsivonen> text/html in non-default, non-document modes works like an unknown type
  413. # [11:15] <hsivonen> annevk: in the default and document modes, for text/html first honor HTTP, failing that BOM, failing that <meta> within the first 1024 bytes
  414. # [11:16] <hsivonen> annevk: if we have to look for <meta>, stall output until the parser has seen the <meta> or received 1024 bytes
  415. # [11:16] <hsivonen> if the parser sees 1024 bytes without a <meta> (and without BOM or HTTP-level charset), use UTF-8
  416. # [11:16] <hsivonen> annevk: HOWEVER
  417. # [11:16] <hsivonen> annevk: doing this breaks our mochitests
  418. # [11:17] <hsivonen> annevk: specifically, we have something that tests redirects and tries to read the resource body of a redirect response
  419. # [11:17] <hsivonen> which is marked text/html without an explicit charset
  420. # [11:17] <hsivonen> annevk: so this stuff may not be entirely done yet
  421. # [11:18] <hsivonen> annevk: I've been pondering the idea of not stalling as long as the data before the <meta> is in the printable ASCII range
  422. # [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: not stalling responseText that is
  423. # [11:19] <annevk> ow
  424. # [11:19] <annevk> that sounds tricky
  425. # [11:19] <roc> hsivonen: are you just worried about the test, or are you worried that the same pattern is likely to show up in real life?
  426. # [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I'll analyze the situation and see if it's reasonable to try to change the test
  427. # [11:20] <hsivonen> roc: so far, only a test
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  431. # [11:23] <annevk> hsivonen: did you consider completely disabling the <meta> thing?
  432. # [11:24] <annevk> hsivonen: Hixie: I updated the bug saying we're waiting for implementation experience from Gecko
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  434. # [11:25] <annevk> the CSS WG decided to not change vm/vw
  435. # [11:25] <annevk> grmbl
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  439. # [11:34] <hsivonen> annevk: I considered it briefly after Hixie suggested it, but disabling <meta> altogether would mean deviating even more from what sicking wanted and I'm in principle uncomfortable with not supporting all conforming documents
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  441. # [11:41] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/av_param o_O
  442. # [11:42] <annevk> insanity is prevailing it seems
  443. # [11:42] <annevk> hsivonen: fair enough, sounds good to me generally
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  449. # [11:47] <boblet> annevk: quick q about HTML5 diffs doc. It mentions absent elements "are not in HTML5". I thought they were obsolete (not for author use) but still covered by HTML5 (=in the spec with guidance for implementors)
  450. # [11:47] <boblet> it’s re: https://github.com/html5doctor/diveintohtml5/issues/1
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  452. # [11:48] <roc> who's behind av_param?
  453. # [11:49] <annevk> Glenn Adams
  454. # [11:49] <annevk> he contracts for some unnamed entity I believe
  455. # [11:49] <roc> Samsung
  456. # [11:50] <annevk> yeah, but also an unnamed entity
  457. # [11:50] <boblet> for me using obsolete elements in HTML5 doesn’t break the doc, just the validation. maybe I need to read defn of obsolete…
  458. # [11:50] <roc> he was involved in a large furore on the wwww-font list
  459. # [11:51] <annevk> and apparently co-chair of the Timed Text WG at some point
  460. # [11:51] <annevk> boblet, you should tell the guy that HTML4 is obsolete
  461. # [11:52] <boblet> annevk: you’re not helping :p
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  463. # [11:52] <boblet> purist vs pragmatist, fight! ;)
  464. # [11:52] <annevk> boblet: just saying how it is
  465. # [11:53] <annevk> boblet: anyway html5-diff is written towards authors primarily
  466. # [11:53] <annevk> boblet: as they seem to find it most useful, and for authors, the elements are absent
  467. # [11:53] <boblet> annevk: for me Mark’s sentence is correct, but from an author perspective (if there are obsolete elems/attribs) maybe not so much huh
  468. # [11:56] <annevk> you should not read books like you read specs man
  469. # [11:57] <annevk> specs you can read in an anal-retentive way, maybe even should
  470. # [11:57] <annevk> books not so much
  471. # [11:57] <annevk> I would link to a blog entry where Mark explains this, but it's no longer up :(
  472. # [11:59] <boblet> annevk: agree. can u give me a rough title or keywords re: Mark's article? might check archive
  473. # [12:00] <annevk> boblet: ietf, cat pictures, w3c
  474. # [12:01] <annevk> boblet: maybe specs or standards
  475. # [12:02] <boblet> annevk: thanks as always yo
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  480. # [12:23] <karlcow> annevk: http://web.archive.org/web/20110514114618/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs ?
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  482. # [12:29] <annevk> no
  483. # [12:31] <akamike> Amusing to read though
  484. # [12:33] <annevk> he has written many great posts
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  487. # [12:42] <hsivonen> I wonder how much YouTube's autocaptioning has been tested with different accents. it fails pretty hard with a typical Finnish accent (when speaking English that is)
  488. # [12:43] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com)
  489. # [12:44] <zcorpan> i tried it on a presentation timj held. it pretty much failed
  490. # [12:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the WebGL developer?
  491. # [12:45] <zcorpan> yes
  492. # [12:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is he from Finland (his English sounded more like spoken by a Finn that like spoken by a Swede)
  493. # [12:46] <zcorpan> no
  494. # [12:49] <annevk> pointer?
  495. # [12:50] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  496. # [12:50] <zcorpan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnVy_uCk_es
  497. # [12:51] <hsivonen> annevk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6QjOjgwuWk particularly between 1:00 and 1:20 shows the speech recognition failing pretty hard
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  499. # [12:54] <zcorpan> it transcribed "firefox" correctly but "chrome" became "croats"
  500. # [12:54] <zcorpan> (4:30)
  501. # [12:56] <zcorpan> "fragment shaders" -> "pregnant shakers" :)
  502. # [12:58] * dglazkov is now known as dglazkov|away
  503. # [13:00] <boblet> annevk: “There are no exceptions to Postel’s Law”? http://web.archive.org/web/20110514120305/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/08/postels-law
  504. # [13:01] <hsivonen> it's nice that Mark didn't request archive.org to hide his writings
  505. # [13:02] <hsivonen> btw, did I miss something that I should have mentioned in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-data-tf/2011Oct/0266.html ?
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  507. # [13:08] <annevk> boblet: good find
  508. # [13:08] <annevk> zcorpan: haha
  509. # [13:11] <hsivonen> I wonder if anyone has fed yesterday's Nokia Lumia 800 announcement to a text to speech engine to see how often the said "800" in a way that sounded like "Android"
  510. # [13:11] <hsivonen> doh. speech to text
  511. # [13:15] <annevk> hsivonen: looks accurate
  512. # [13:15] <annevk> hsivonen: blog post worthy
  513. # [13:17] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. thanks. I might copy and paste it to my blog later.
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  515. # [13:21] <hsivonen> sigh. so we have a separate parsing algorithm for WebVTT but make it treat Form Feed as white space for consistency. FAIL. :-(
  516. # [13:26] <hsivonen> whoa. a thread about "Signed XHTML". XML tech rathole warning!
  517. # [13:27] <annevk> hsivonen, we can remove the FF handling
  518. # [13:27] <annevk> hsivonen: should we?
  519. # [13:27] <hsivonen> annevk: my gut says we should
  520. # [13:27] <hsivonen> space, tab, cr and lf is the One True set of space characters
  521. # [13:28] <annevk> what does CSS have?
  522. # [13:28] <annevk> and why does HTML have FF?
  523. # [13:28] <hsivonen> HTML has FF due to beliefs about legacy
  524. # [13:29] <hsivonen> dunno how real the need to have FF in HTML is
  525. # [13:30] <hsivonen> CSS has FF. :-(
  526. # [13:30] <annevk> seems better to just keep FF around then
  527. # [13:30] <hsivonen> :-(
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  529. # [13:31] <annevk> it's not very sad, it just means it's 5 true whitespace characters instead of 4
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  531. # [13:35] <hsivonen> I failed to resist replying to the signature thread
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  536. # [14:03] <zcorpan> annevk: FF after signature would be inconsistent with cache manifests
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  538. # [14:10] <annevk> maybe we should update those too then
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  544. # [14:29] <annevk> http://www.firefoxwithbing.com/ is all kinds of odd, but it also makes sense I suppose
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  550. # [14:44] <hsivonen> annevk: odd how?
  551. # [14:48] <annevk> Microsoft promoting the usage of a non-Microsoft browser in order to more successfully compete in the search market
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  555. # [15:14] <erlehmann> annevk, bing even uses webm ;)
  556. # [15:14] <erlehmann> btw, do you know a good minimalistic contentEditable editor?
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  570. # [16:02] <hsivonen> erlehmann: where does Bing use WebM? or did I misunderstand the smiley?
  571. # [16:04] <hsivonen> annevk: does Microsoft promote the firefoxwithbing.com site somewhere to users who aren't already seeking to download Firefox?
  572. # [16:04] <erlehmann> hsivonen, here? http://www.bing.com/?scope=web&setmkt=en-US&setlang=match&FORM=W5WA&uid=879B42B5
  573. # [16:05] <hsivonen> erlehmann: cool
  574. # [16:07] <miketaylr> unless you're using Opera, then you get a static image
  575. # [16:07] <miketaylr> yay
  576. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> MS was never against WebM, they just don't want to ship the codecs.
  577. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> For liability reasons.
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  579. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> Shipping an encoder or decoder is presumably a lot more likely to expose you to liability than providing a file.
  580. # [16:12] <AryehGregor> I guess patents are likely to cover the encoding or decoding process, not the file format itself.
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  582. # [16:14] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, that is what they want you to believe.
  583. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> Plus, your liability for distributing one file has got to be more limited than your liability for distributing a codec that lets users view zillions of files.
  584. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, I've seen nothing to indicate that Microsoft is anything but honest in its reasons for non-support of WebM.
  585. # [16:15] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, non-support of vorbis?
  586. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> Everything they've said and done accords with their explanation that they're only concerned about patent liability.
  587. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> . . . Vorbis I don't know. I haven't seen any statements by them on that.
  588. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> People seem to not talk about the audio part much, mostly video.
  589. # [16:16] <erlehmann> i am interested in audio. i sometimes do podcasts.
  590. # [16:16] <erlehmann> also, streaming vorbis (well, anything in ogg) is easy.
  591. # [16:16] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: They already ship VP8.
  592. # [16:16] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: In Skype.
  593. # [16:16] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, typical. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing . . .
  594. # [16:16] <erlehmann> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure#Criticisms
  595. # [16:16] <AryehGregor> Like how they argued fiercely against OTF embedding while Silverlight supported it.
  596. # [16:16] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: They only officially owned Skype a few days ago
  597. # [16:17] <erlehmann> >The license prohibited makers of portable devices compatible with Windows Media Player from using non-Microsoft audio encoding formats.
  598. # [16:17] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: But the risk is now their's
  599. # [16:17] <AryehGregor> Oh, so MPEG LA's patent search has come up with something. I didn't notice that when it happened.
  600. # [16:17] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, oh, well, that's different.
  601. # [16:17] <AryehGregor> That does change things, though.
  602. # [16:17] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Different, yes, but the liability is their's.
  603. # [16:17] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: And it's only really the liaibility that matters.
  604. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  605. # [16:18] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, i have one question. if a vendor has already paid or is part of the patent consortium, what is to fear, legally, by including free codecs?
  606. # [16:18] <jgraham> AryehGregor:
  607. # [16:18] <AryehGregor> Of course, they might decide to phase out VP8 from Skype. But if they don't, it seems hard to understand why they wouldn't allow WebM in IE too.
  608. # [16:18] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: MPEG LA's H.264 portfolio is meant to be about 20% bogus, but the cost of going through and proving prior art for all of them is considered more costly than paying the fee
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  610. # [16:19] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: the number of units sdhipped would have an affect on any fine. IE ships more units than Skype.
  611. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, the MPEG LA has separate patent pools for different formats. If you're paying into the H.264 patent pool, that doesn't mean you get licenses to VP8 patents, even from the same parties.
  612. # [16:19] <gsnedders> *shipped
  613. # [16:19] <gsnedders> *effect
  614. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, damages, I think, not fine. But that's true.
  615. # [16:19] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, to obstruct the web as a platform, of course. in before do not assume malice.
  616. # [16:19] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: What legally it is is rather non-important here :P
  617. # [16:20] <annevk> Since the initial argument Microsoft bought Skype
  618. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, I think there's decent evidence here of non-malice.
  619. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> Such as, they support WebM if you install the codec, which they don't do for any other format.
  620. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> And they publicly pledged that they'll support it if Google agrees to indemnify them.
  621. # [16:20] <erlehmann> they don't? isn't directShow like quicktime, supporting everything installed?
  622. # [16:20] <gsnedders> erlehmann: They whitelist it.
  623. # [16:21] <AryehGregor> Right.
  624. # [16:21] <gsnedders> erlehmann: To stop things like WMV from being used with video.
  625. # [16:21] <erlehmann> gsnedders, did not know that.
  626. # [16:21] <AryehGregor> Because a lot of codecs are dodgy and they don't want them exposed to the web.
  627. # [16:21] <gsnedders> erlehmann: The only video codecs they allow are H.264 and WebM.
  628. # [16:22] <erlehmann> how unfortunate for theora (hey, my laptop is from 2007).
  629. # [16:22] <AryehGregor> My prediction: MPEG LA announces a patent pool. Google either buys out the patents, or declares they're blatantly invalid/inapplicable and offers to indemnify Microsoft and Apple against them, or changes VP8 to avoid them.
  630. # [16:22] <erlehmann> wellr, i am a behaviourist. actions speak louder than words, particularly regarding software.
  631. # [16:22] <AryehGregor> Microsoft and Apple will then support WebM.
  632. # [16:22] <AryehGregor> But I'm speculating here.
  633. # [16:23] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: That wouldn't make Opera/Mozilla/any other browser vendor happy.
  634. # [16:23] <AryehGregor> Which part?
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  637. # [16:23] <gsnedders> Especially anyone wanting to move into the browser market, as they'd have a alrger risk than anyone else.
  638. # [16:23] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, even more so than microsoft, apple is not a friend of open formats when there is a position to hold.
  639. # [16:23] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: indemification
  640. # [16:24] <erlehmann> gsnedders is a very clever person.
  641. # [16:24] <gsnedders> erlehmann: I am? Okay. :D
  642. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, I'm guessing they'd either offer indemnification to Mozilla too, or only offer the indemnification secretly and require Microsoft/Apple to not admit to it, only say "Hey, Google convinced us to support it".
  643. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> I doubt they'd care about Opera.
  644. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> Opera will be forced to support it regardless if everyone else does.
  645. # [16:25] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Then why both having us as one of the initial impls at WebM's original announcement?
  646. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> They want to have everyone possible.
  647. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> They also had, like, Grab Networks.
  648. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> I have no idea what that even is.
  649. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> . . . Actually, I don't see Opera here.
  650. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
  651. # [16:26] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Håkon was there
  652. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> Opera gets called out in the start with Mozilla/Opera/Google Chrome/Adobe.
  653. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> Well, whatever.
  654. # [16:27] <gsnedders> At Google I/O.
  655. # [16:27] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Also, if they care about mobile, not caring about us would be silly.
  656. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> That's very different from offering a potentially large sum of money to fight legal battles for you.
  657. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> http://www.mpegla.com/main/pid/vp8/default.aspx
  658. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> Feh, no details.
  659. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  660. # [16:27] <gsnedders> We could just go down the road of not wanting to run the risk and just support H.264 on mobile.
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  662. # [16:28] * tomasf_ is now known as tomasf
  663. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> If MS and Apple support WebM, then congrats, you'd no longer be web-compatible.
  664. # [16:31] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  665. # [16:32] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, you are speculating. I bet two mozarella cheeseburgers with fried egg that in 6 months, neither Apple nor Microsoft will deliver a desktop or moible web browser supporting any of the following: Ogg. Vorbis, Theora, Matroska, VP8.
  666. # [16:32] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, I doubt this will take anywhere close to as short as six months. There are lawyers involved.
  667. # [16:32] <AryehGregor> I'd guess more like within three years.
  668. # [16:33] <erlehmann> 18 Months.
  669. # [16:33] <erlehmann> And four mozarella cheeseburgers.
  670. # [16:33] <AryehGregor> Eighteen months is possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.
  671. # [16:33] <erlehmann> See?
  672. # [16:33] <AryehGregor> I'd bet a modest sum on three years.
  673. # [16:33] <AryehGregor> Not cheeseburgers, though, they aren't kosher. In fact, I'm not even allowed to have any benefit from them. If you gave me one I'd have to throw it out.
  674. # [16:33] <erlehmann> Wat.
  675. # [16:34] <AryehGregor> Yus.
  676. # [16:34] <erlehmann> they don't mix milk and patties!
  677. # [16:34] <erlehmann> it is a fat blob of fried mozarella instead of meat.
  678. # [16:34] <erlehmann> in fact, i might just go out and get one.
  679. # [16:34] <erlehmann> now.
  680. # [16:34] <erlehmann> ha.
  681. # [16:35] <erlehmann> or write on some part of my blog engine.
  682. # [16:35] <erlehmann> hmm.
  683. # [16:35] <AryehGregor> Oh, that does sound appetizing.
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  686. # [16:38] <jgraham> Fried mozarella?
  687. # [16:39] <jgraham> That sounds like a bad idea...
  688. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> It sounds extremely unhealthful, which makes it right up my alley.
  689. # [16:46] <jgraham> I was more concerned with the logistics of frying mozarella. It should melt!
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  699. # [16:46] <jgraham> Also, this is the worst network I have ever been on
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  701. # [16:47] <annevk> Is that the Avatar hotel?
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  703. # [16:47] <wilhelm> I've seen worse. But yes, this high speed broadband really isn't.
  704. # [16:47] <jgraham> No, Hotel Zico
  705. # [16:47] <jgraham> I have like 50% packet loss
  706. # [16:48] <annevk> How is the weather?
  707. # [16:48] * Joins: krijn (u2319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hrqwuighiqloyqcm)
  708. # [16:48] <wilhelm> 12-20° and no clouds.
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  714. # [16:54] <annevk> not too bad
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  718. # [17:00] <annevk> do you need to update ESTA each time you go to the US?
  719. # [17:00] <annevk> I guess I better do it just in case
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  740. # [17:48] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  741. # [17:48] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  742. # [17:50] * janTeto is now known as hober
  743. # [17:50] <annevk> good afternoon, dglazkov!
  744. # [17:52] <dglazkov> I just realized that the Whatwg cabal is slowly converging upon the San Francisco Bay Area
  745. # [17:53] <annevk> terrorists with the intent of slowing down development of the web would do good striking next week
  746. # [17:53] <dglazkov> one can easily visualize the map with red arrows punching through the georgraphy, WW2 style
  747. # [17:53] <annevk> hehe
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  757. # [18:06] <bfrohs> Is there any chance of the label element receiving :valid, :invalid, :required capabilities in CSS? Use cases: 1) Adding an asterisk or other symbol after the text in a label that uses the for attribute. 2) Targeting elements that come after a label with an input child (<p>Label <label><input></label> <small>Text</small></p>)
  758. # [18:08] <bfrohs> 3) Formatting the text in a label accordingly (e.g. different color or weight)
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  762. # [18:12] * timeless wants to see that map
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  765. # [18:13] <annevk> bfrohs, I think the idea is to have a selector that allows selecting the associated label
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  767. # [18:14] <dglazkov> timeless, jgraham should do it. He's already arrived, barely has any Internets -- perfect time for doodling.
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  769. # [18:15] <bfrohs> annevk, that would be ideal. I guess I was just thinking that it would fall under the "can't have parent selectors" argument and would be easier to just set it on the label when setting it on the input.
  770. # [18:16] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  771. # [18:17] <timeless> heh
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  786. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: "?label /for/ :invalid"
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  788. # [18:37] * TabAtkins likes combining together multiple crazy selectors.
  789. # [18:37] * hober2 is now known as hober
  790. # [18:38] <hober> TabAtkins majored in crazy selector combinatorics
  791. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Well, it was a minor with honors.
  792. # [18:38] <hober> ahh, fair enough
  793. # [18:39] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: Yeah, that's the general idea. Those are just hypothetical though, right? Not used in any browser?
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  795. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: They exist only in spec right now. No implementations yet.
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  798. # [18:40] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: Have a link to said spec? So you guys can spend time on improving everything even more, instead of looking things up for me? ;)
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  800. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4
  801. # [18:40] <bfrohs> Thank ya much :)
  802. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> Specifically http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#subject and http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#idref-combinators
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  810. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> jgraham: You've never had a fried cheesestick before?
  811. # [18:45] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#subject -- Paragraph 3: "with or without the dollar sign" - should be "with or without the question mark", shouldn't it?
  812. # [18:45] <jgraham> TabAtkins: My arteries are clogging just thinking about it
  813. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: Yes, it was originally a dollar sign until we made fantasai change it.
  814. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Go to any low-budget italian place in america.
  815. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> Or a fair.
  816. # [18:46] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: Saving dollar sign for vars, perhaps? :)
  817. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: We *were*, but now we're shifting gears to a different design.
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  825. # [19:00] <zcorpan> so uh, where's the webm video on bing's front page?
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  827. # [19:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in Firefox--not in Opera :-(
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  831. # [19:03] <zcorpan> i don't see it in firefox either
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  833. # [19:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you see a woodpecker on the front page?
  834. # [19:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you have an en-US version of Firefox?
  835. # [19:08] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  836. # [19:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan: having you chosen United States as your Bing locale?
  837. # [19:08] <hsivonen> s/having/have/
  838. # [19:10] <hsivonen> it seems you need to choose United States to see a woodpecker
  839. # [19:10] <hsivonen> and then Opera gets a still woodpecker and Firefox gets a video of a woodpecker
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  841. # [19:11] <zewt> it's pining for the fjords
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  844. # [19:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: needed to change the bing locale to US
  845. # [19:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i can mask as firefox in opera to get the video
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  847. # [19:20] <zcorpan> hmm the bing home page used a lot of cpu for me (in both firefox and opera)
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  858. # [19:33] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: Just realized that the code you gave me ("?label /for/ :invalid") won't work for use case #2: Targeting elements that come after a label with an input child (<p>Label <label><input></label> <small>Text</small></p>)
  859. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: Correct. This is why I don't like the subject indicator very much. It would be better to use :has().
  860. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: "label:has( :scope /for/ :invalid ) + small
  861. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> Alternately, use Hierarchies to get the same functionality (this is silly, though):
  862. # [19:34] <zcorpan> can:has(cheezeburger)
  863. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> "?label /for/ :invalid { & + small { <properties go here> } }
  864. # [19:35] <bfrohs> But won't both :has and nesting with subject specified lead to parent relationships that vendors have said no to for years due to performance issues?
  865. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> The subject indicator all by itself leads to those problems.
  866. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> But yes. We're trying to push on it to see if they're usable in practice these days.
  867. # [19:36] <bfrohs> Well, to an extent, but it isn't in a loop
  868. # [19:37] <bfrohs> Once you add nesting (and force them to use the subject, rather than the normal hierarchy), or add :has(), it will have a loop that will cause *more* of an issue.
  869. # [19:37] <bfrohs> I think that's been the main reason behind it (but only one deep isn't as bad).
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  871. # [19:38] <bfrohs> Whereas if :invalid and all of that was also available to label, this could be avoided
  872. # [19:38] <bfrohs> I think it would be an easier idea for vendors to accept, but I could be wrong.
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  875. # [19:40] <mbatle_> anybody knows if any browser is implementing mediagroup property in media elements ?
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  886. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> jgraham, proposed testharness patch for review: http://pastebin.com/1MLYd24H
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  888. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> Currently the specs say RangeException shouldn't exist, and there are new exception types added to DOMException that browsers don't implement yet, so the preexisting code was incorrect.
  889. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> E.g., if INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR is supported on DOMException, then assert_throws("INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR", ...) will expect that, but if it's not, it will expect a RangeException.
  890. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> This means that Gecko incorrectly passes many tests in http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Range-selectNode.html that WebKit fails, because WebKit implements the new INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR.
  891. # [20:12] <hsivonen> I probably should have saved a pre-HTML5 parser WebKit-based browser somewhere...
  892. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Why?
  893. # [20:13] <hsivonen> I wonder if Android has an outdated WebKit
  894. # [20:13] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: for testing
  895. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> Why would you want to test browsers that have rapidly become so obscure?
  896. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> Chrome that old is massively irrelevant, and Safari/other WebKit that old must have tiny market share by now.
  897. # [20:14] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: to figure out if we changed something in HTML5
  898. # [20:15] <hsivonen> turns out that WebKit in Android 3.1 is too fresh. (I'm surprised. The Android stock browser has a reputation of being behind the times.)
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  900. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> Is othermaciej on vacation or something? I haven't seen him say anything for a long time now.
  901. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> Oh, he talked yesterday.
  902. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> Okay, so he still exists.
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  925. # [20:20] <smaug____> hsivonen: are you still trying to test document.close() handling
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  927. # [20:21] <smaug____> hsivonen: and sorry, I was offline for some time. What was the reason to append EOF and not insert it?
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  930. # [20:22] <hsivonen> smaug____: I'm testing my reimplementation of the buffer queue management at this point. I think the code I have for document.close() doesn't need more testing today
  931. # [20:22] <hsivonen> smaug____: the reason for appending is that you can do:
  932. # [20:22] <hsivonen> doc.open();
  933. # [20:22] <hsivonen> doc.write("<script src=whatever.js></script>);
  934. # [20:22] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@204.239.250.1)
  935. # [20:22] <hsivonen> doc.write("something else");
  936. # [20:23] <hsivonen> doc.close();
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  938. # [20:23] <hsivonen> and have "something else" appear in the document
  939. # [20:23] * Joins: lensco (u4054@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-obwypwbjasupprtz)
  940. # [20:24] <smaug____> well, I would assume doc.write("<script src=whatever.js></script>); would insert something to stream and keep the stream "open" until the script is executed. After that "Something else" would be inserted
  941. # [20:24] <smaug____> and then doc.close
  942. # [20:24] * Joins: Phae (u455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-brngijapodxfsjum)
  943. # [20:24] <smaug____> since that is the order of insertion
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  946. # [20:25] <hsivonen> smaug____: okay, better example: assume the doc.write("something else"); statement is in whatever.js instead
  947. # [20:26] <smaug____> and ?
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  949. # [20:26] <smaug____> that would insert "something else".
  950. # [20:26] <hsivonen> smaug____: in that case, document.write("something else"); executes after document.close();, but you still want "something else" to appear in the document
  951. # [20:27] <smaug____> right
  952. # [20:27] <smaug____> but that document.write() would insert something to be before the EOF
  953. # [20:27] <hsivonen> smaug____: yes
  954. # [20:28] <smaug____> so that would work just fine
  955. # [20:28] * Joins: dglazkov (u4270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lfbsjtxdizaenewl)
  956. # [20:28] <hsivonen> smaug____: oh, you meant why document.close() appends when called from a nested script
  957. # [20:28] <smaug____> well, in any case
  958. # [20:28] <hsivonen> smaug____: I'm going to go with "that's the way document.close() works"
  959. # [20:28] <smaug____> why it doesn't insert EOF but appends
  960. # [20:29] <smaug____> hsivonen: ok
  961. # [20:30] <smaug____> hsivonen: do you know if this behavior was actually defined based on how browsers behave
  962. # [20:30] <hsivonen> smaug____: I don't recall anymore
  963. # [20:30] <smaug____> k
  964. # [20:30] <hsivonen> let's see what my clashtest does in Firefox 3.5
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  966. # [20:31] <smaug____> would be interesting to know what IE6-8 do
  967. # [20:31] <hsivonen> smaug____: HTML5 specs old Firefox-style document.write()
  968. # [20:31] <hsivonen> IE8 was different
  969. # [20:31] <smaug____> hsivonen: but this is about document.close, not document.write ;)
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  972. # [20:33] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: see this is what old browsers are kept around for
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  974. # [20:34] <hsivonen> smaug____: IE8 hangs
  975. # [20:34] <hsivonen> w00t. I have discovered two ways to hang IE8 today
  976. # [20:34] <hsivonen> smaug____: Firefox 3.5 behaves like HTML5 says
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  984. # [20:38] <smaug____> that doesn't mean I like what the spec defines
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  986. # [20:38] <hsivonen> smaug____: would it be possible to define document.write and document.close in a likeable way?
  987. # [20:39] <smaug____> document.close could insert EOF
  988. # [20:39] <smaug____> not append
  989. # [20:39] <smaug____> but, again, I'm not very familiar with parsing, so perhaps there is some reason for the current behavior
  990. # [20:39] <hsivonen> smaug____: I'd rather rock the boat based on aesthetics and stick to something that's known to be successful on the Web
  991. # [20:40] <smaug____> it is strange that some data can be inserted to document after document.close()
  992. # [20:40] <smaug____> hsivonen: yeah, I guess I don't care too much
  993. # [20:40] <hsivonen> I'd rather *not* rock the boat
  994. # [20:41] <hsivonen> smaug____: the possibility of calling document.write() on a document.open()ed doc from scripts that are neither the one that called open() nor scripts that are in the open()ed doc bothers me more
  995. # [20:41] <hsivonen> smaug____: particularly that those other scripts can run from nested event loops
  996. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, does something define how to determine the actual value for numeric markers? E.g., saying what number to display if you have <ol><li style=display:none>abc<li>def</ol>, or style=list-style:none, or whatever?
  997. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> It seems changing the display causes it to be skipped, at least in Gecko and WebKit, but I didn't see that in a glance at the spec.
  998. # [20:47] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@95-55-14-201.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru)
  999. # [20:48] <hober> AryehGregor: yes, that's in the lists module; let me try to find the spot
  1000. # [20:49] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: Yes, 2.1 defines that.
  1001. # [20:49] <hober> AryehGregor: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/#declaring-a-list-item
  1002. # [20:50] <hober> AryehGregor: "To declare a list item, the 'display' property must be set to 'list-item' or 'inline-list-item' (defined later in this section). This, in addition to generating a ::marker pseudo-element and enabling the properties described below for that element, causes that element to increment the list item counter 'list-item'."
  1003. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see.
  1004. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
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  1006. # [20:50] * AryehGregor was looking at the TR -- of course -- but it says the same thing
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  1009. # [20:53] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: I intend to work on fixing 'display', such that the special behavior of "list-item" can be triggered independently of the layout.
  1010. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Yes, that would be awesome.
  1011. # [20:54] <TabAtkins_> Since "list-item" is really just "block with magic"
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  1013. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Things like inline-block really need to die.
  1014. # [20:55] <hober> well, display-inside and display-outside need to happen
  1015. # [20:55] <TabAtkins_> Yup.
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  1017. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> While we're talking about CSS, can someone explain to me why there's an extra line break after the steps with comments here in Gecko but not WebKit? http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html#methods-to-query-and-execute-commands
  1018. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Like after steps 3 and 4 at the top there.
  1019. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> I remember I tried to figure it out once before and gave up.
  1020. # [20:57] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: It's because the exact treatment of the (currently implicit) ::marker is undefined.
  1021. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  1022. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Great.
  1023. # [20:58] <TabAtkins_> Firefox treats it as an inline element, which creates a linebox, and forces the block (<div> element) below it.
  1024. # [20:58] * Joins: _salavas (~salavas@c83-248-102-83.bredband.comhem.se)
  1025. # [20:58] <TabAtkins_> (The behavior now defined in Lists matches Chrome here. More propertly, it's almost exactly IE's behavior, which is the sanest of anyone.)
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  1027. # [20:58] * _salavas is now known as salavas
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  1029. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> I can't seem to easily come up with a minimal test-case, though.
  1030. # [20:59] <TabAtkins_> I came up with plenty during testing. One sec.
  1031. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Also, IIRC, IE displayed them like Gecko.
  1032. # [21:01] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  1033. # [21:01] <jgraham> Hmm, I wonder what the lowest-hanging fruit is in terms of untested stuff in HTML5
  1034. # [21:02] <jgraham> And by "untested" I mean "wihout a test in the offical repo"
  1035. # [21:03] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  1036. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> jgraham, good grief, practically nothing is tested. Just start at page one.
  1037. # [21:04] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yeah, I know :)
  1038. # [21:05] <jgraham> I just want something that is both stupidly simple and useful
  1039. # [21:05] <jgraham> It is the "simple" part that is difficult
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  1041. # [21:05] <jgraham> "useful" can be determined by sticking a pin in the spec at random and assuming there are no tests
  1042. # [21:07] <TabAtkins_> Hm, I'm having trouble reducing a testcase too. >_<
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  1045. # [21:08] <TabAtkins_> Oh man, Firefox has a native inspector now!
  1046. # [21:08] <TabAtkins_> It's not very good yet, but still.
  1047. # [21:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Do you mean simple as in to test the whole feature?
  1048. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> It's had one for a while.
  1049. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I don't know why you use the word "assume" there.
  1050. # [21:12] <smaug____> strange that in Gecko and Presto <a> can be used in place of <area>. Don't know about old IEs
  1051. # [21:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not really
  1052. # [21:14] <jgraham> Alhough if that was possible it would be double plus good
  1053. # [21:14] <smaug____> oh, cvs commit says this is because of HTML4 ...
  1054. # [21:15] <smaug____> or no
  1055. # [21:15] * Joins: moo-_- (~quassel@herd37.twinapex.fi)
  1056. # [21:16] <timeless> smaug____: i presume you're going to tpac?
  1057. # [21:17] <smaug____> I'm not
  1058. # [21:18] <timeless> aww
  1059. # [21:18] <jgraham> timeless: No need to assume; http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/registrants
  1060. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, okay, so sometimes refreshing the exact same document repeatedly in Gecko will change whether the effect occurs.
  1061. # [21:19] <timeless> jgraham: i don't suppose there's a ?groupby=sponsor
  1062. # [21:20] <jgraham> timeless: Not that I know of
  1063. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, I strongly suspect that in the case of my page, it's a timing issue, because the floated buttons are created by script.
  1064. # [21:20] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-szcqoxnsceeohgnq)
  1065. # [21:20] <smaug____> oh, Gecko and Presto do actually work per HTML4 spec
  1066. # [21:20] <timeless> > Virginie GALINDO <virginie.galindo@gemalto.com> () : attending Thursday, Friday
  1067. # [21:20] <timeless> is interesting, how did that person end up w/o content in ()?
  1068. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> If they're created fast enough, it seems to be fine.
  1069. # [21:20] <smaug____> I wonder how support for <a> got removed from HTML spec
  1070. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> Including if they're in the original DOM.
  1071. # [21:23] <timeless> AryehGregor: hey, i'm looking for someone @google who can pass along a bug report about gmm
  1072. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> timeless, I'm not @google.
  1073. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> In any meaningful sense, other than that they give me money occasionally.
  1074. # [21:23] <timeless> i'm open to suggestions :)
  1075. # [21:24] <timeless> oh, TabAtkins ?
  1076. # [21:24] * timeless pokes
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  1078. # [21:26] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, got it! http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1237
  1079. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> It seems like it reserves space for the thing and then doesn't reflow properly when it moves.
  1080. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> That's why it was so hard to track down.
  1081. # [21:30] <smaug____> Hixie: do you remember the reason why HTML spec removes coords and shape from <a> element, and also removes support for <a> inside <map> ?
  1082. # [21:30] <wilhelm> Agenda for the testing meeting tomorrow: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2011OctDec/0014.html
  1083. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Ooh. Now it doesn't reproduce properly anymore.
  1084. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Of course.
  1085. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> . . .
  1086. # [21:35] * AryehGregor doesn't know what to do now
  1087. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> It repros consistently in Live DOM Viewer, but not in a data URL.
  1088. # [21:36] <Hixie> smaug____: only firefox implemented it
  1089. # [21:36] <smaug____> also Opera
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  1091. # [21:37] <Hixie> and nobody used it
  1092. # [21:37] <smaug____> that is possible
  1093. # [21:37] <smaug____> I'm trying to decide whether to remove support for it
  1094. # [21:37] <Hixie> i vote yes :-)
  1095. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Oooh, I think I see.
  1096. # [21:38] <smaug____> but it was basically random removal based on that IE didn't support it
  1097. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> It must be something to do with margins.
  1098. # [21:38] <smaug____> but yeah, I think it should be ok to remove it
  1099. # [21:38] <Hixie> smaug____: it's not a compelling feature, very few people use it, and the feature it's a part of (image maps) is itself not a compelling feature
  1100. # [21:38] <Hixie> smaug____: but it has a non-trivial level of complexity
  1101. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Well, it should still not be dependent on how the DOM was created.
  1102. # [21:38] <Hixie> smaug____: so imho it's a good candidate for removal
  1103. # [21:39] <Hixie> smaug____: we don't get many :-(
  1104. # [21:39] <smaug____> yup
  1105. # [21:39] <smaug____> I think I'll add a warning that the feature is deprecated
  1106. # [21:39] * Joins: _bga (~bga@ppp91-122-181-99.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  1107. # [21:39] <smaug____> and remove it later
  1108. # [21:39] <Hixie> seems reasonable
  1109. # [21:39] <Hixie> does mozilla have any way of instrumenting how often a warning triggers?
  1110. # [21:40] <smaug____> I could add a telemetry probe
  1111. # [21:40] <smaug____> but telemetry is opt-in
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  1113. # [21:40] <smaug____> ofc
  1114. # [21:40] <Hixie> btw when i was doing research on this i found it was used extremely rarely in image maps, but that a number of authoring tools would put the attributes on <a> with their default values
  1115. # [21:40] <Hixie> so you might see an elevated number of <a shape="rect" coords=""> elements despite them not being part of actual image maps
  1116. # [21:41] <smaug____> right
  1117. # [21:41] <Hixie> which is to say, if you do set up telemetry, i'd make sure to distinguish <a>s actually used in image maps from those just with those attributes for no good reaosn
  1118. # [21:41] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1119. # [21:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
  1120. # [21:42] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
  1121. # [21:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: re defining the term "xhtml document", an alternative is for me to drop all usage of the term. Would that be acceptable, or do you prefer a definition?
  1122. # [21:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: if the latter, do you want it to refer to the byte stream, or to the DOM structure?
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  1125. # [21:48] <Hixie> annevk: i think we may have to seriously consider renaming the terms "html document" and "xml document" so that they don't get confused with references to text/html documents and text/html documents.
  1126. # [21:50] * Quits: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-kqjkfvryemhaiqxc) (Quit: KillerX)
  1127. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> Okay, can other people reproduce my minimal test-case here with various Firefox versions, or am I just insane? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697793
  1128. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> annevk, does anything still throw a WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR, or should it be marked historical?
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  1132. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> annevk, filed a bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14576
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  1136. # [22:09] <smaug____> AryehGregor: Gecko seems to use that still in Range code
  1137. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> smaug____, the spec says it shouldn't, though, AFAIK. Where does it use it?
  1138. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> Generally we prefer to silently adopt the node.
  1139. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> It's friendlier.
  1140. # [22:10] <smaug____> AryehGregor: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-range-ispointinrange
  1141. # [22:10] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  1142. # [22:10] <smaug____> "WrongDocumentError"
  1143. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> Aha.
  1144. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> I was searching for the wrong string.
  1145. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> Duh.
  1146. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  1147. # [22:10] <smaug____> and that is, IMO, a valid use case
  1148. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> It actually seems friendlier to just return false in that case, IMO.
  1149. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> But it's reasonable, yeah.
  1150. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> (I mean, if it's in a different tree, it's not in the range, right?)
  1151. # [22:13] <smaug____> but it is not quite outside the range either
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  1153. # [22:13] <smaug____> it is just invalid state for the parameter or something
  1154. # [22:14] <smaug____> so a case when throwing is ok
  1155. # [22:14] <smaug____> though, I guess specs aren't consistent
  1156. # [22:14] <smaug____> node.contains() doesn't throw
  1157. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> If I were writing it from scratch, I'd return false. Seems less surprising. But it's okay as-is, if that's what browsers do.
  1158. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> I didn't write or test that method, so I dunno.
  1159. # [22:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think it's good to have a definion for an XHTML document, because we've spent years saying that HTML5 has an XML flavor called XHTML5
  1160. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> smaug____, data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>try {document.createRange().isPointInRange(document.createElement("a"), 0); throw "No exception"} catch(e) {alert(e)}</script> alerts "No exception" for me in both Gecko and WebKit.
  1161. # [22:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: see the bug, i checked in some changes
  1162. # [22:21] * Quits: Timz (~Adium@86.89.174.199) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1163. # [22:23] <smaug____> AryehGregor: oh, indeed
  1164. # [22:23] <smaug____> AryehGregor: but comparePoints throws in Gecko
  1165. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> That makes sense.
  1166. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> There's no sensible return value for that case.
  1167. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Oh, I think I found an infinite loop in my spec.
  1168. # [22:27] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: I suspect it's a stale painting bug, then.
  1169. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Yippee!
  1170. # [22:27] <Hixie> don't you hate that
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  1174. # [22:30] <annevk> Hixie, we could have a "HTMLness flag"
  1175. # [22:30] <Hixie> yeah
  1176. # [22:30] <annevk> Hixie, because that's essentially what it comes down to anyway
  1177. # [22:30] <Hixie> though frankly i'm a little scared of changing this
  1178. # [22:31] <Hixie> because it would mean going through the whole spec changing zillions of little sentences
  1179. # [22:31] <annevk> for the DOM it's relatively straightforward
  1180. # [22:31] <Hixie> and would surely lead to mistakes
  1181. # [22:31] <annevk> I'm willing to review the result
  1182. # [22:31] <Hixie> maybe one day
  1183. # [22:31] <annevk> k
  1184. # [22:35] <annevk> TabAtkins, /for/ does not cover all <label> scenarios
  1185. # [22:36] <annevk> TabAtkins, I guess the other one is covered by ?label input but it's annoying that you have to spell it out like that
  1186. # [22:37] <Hixie> wtf is ?label
  1187. # [22:38] * Quits: jernoble|afk (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  1189. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
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  1192. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: ? is the "subject indicator", which changes the subject of a selector.
  1193. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> What should commands like insertOrderedList do if the editing host is an inline element?
  1194. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> annevk: I agree.
  1195. # [22:45] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
  1196. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> Insert a list anyway, or refuse to do anything, or what?
  1197. # [22:45] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: aw man, i thought we'd done away with the idea of selecting anything but the end of the selector years ago
  1198. # [22:45] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: how did that make a comeback?
  1199. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> Gecko seems to refuse to do anything, even if it would make sense to do something. WebKit seems to just eat the editing host.
  1200. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: It's a persistent author request.
  1201. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> Opera behaves somewhat sensibly, for once.
  1202. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, I thought it will kill perf.
  1203. # [22:47] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: doesn't :matches() take care of it?
  1204. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> ?foo bar = ancestor selector.
  1205. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: That's the fear. We're pushing to see if we can get around that, or at least make it "good enough".
  1206. # [22:47] <Hixie> or :has()?
  1207. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: ? is equivalent to :has(), if you limit :has() to the end of the selector.
  1208. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> (I prefer :has().)
  1209. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, how is it even conceptually possible to support ?foo bar without killing perf?
  1210. # [22:48] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:baac:6fff:fe99:adfb)
  1211. # [22:48] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: so why '?"
  1212. # [22:48] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: Shrug. Browsers be crazy.
  1213. # [22:48] <Hixie> wow i got confused with punctuation there
  1214. # [22:48] <Hixie> let me try that again
  1215. # [22:48] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: so why "?"?
  1216. # [22:48] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Because fantasai prefers that, and she's the Selectors editor.
  1217. # [22:48] <Hixie> aah
  1218. # [22:48] <Hixie> well that makes sense
  1219. # [22:48] <Hixie> ok
  1220. # [22:49] * AryehGregor would prefer a :thingie(), to avoid more cryptic punctuation in CSS
  1221. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> What does :has() do?
  1222. # [22:49] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: Matches an element if it has something.
  1223. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> Meaning?
  1224. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> Like a descendant or something?
  1225. # [22:49] <TabAtkins_> So, to match a label that has an invalid input, do "label:has( :scope /for/ :invalid )"
  1226. # [22:49] <Hixie> :has() is like :matches() except that the selector is assumed to start with a simple selector that selects the element on which the pseudo is
  1227. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> That sounds like it would suffer from the same horrible perf issues.
  1228. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> What's wrong with :for()?
  1229. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Could we keep syntax simple here?
  1230. # [22:50] <Hixie> and yes, :matches, :has, and ? are all horrible for perf
  1231. # [22:50] <Hixie> i'm surprised browsers are ok with any of them
  1232. # [22:50] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: :for() only goes one way.
  1233. # [22:50] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Nobody's implemented one yet. ^_^
  1234. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> I doubt anyone will, based on past statements.
  1235. # [22:50] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: In general, /foo/ is a reference combinator, following the idref named in the combinator.
  1236. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Except perhaps for querySelector().
  1237. # [22:51] <TabAtkins_> We don't yet have an established syntax for functional combinators.
  1238. # [22:51] <TabAtkins_> Though perhaps we should invent one.
  1239. # [22:52] * Joins: benjoffe_ (~benjoffe_@CPE-121-216-39-241.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au)
  1240. # [22:52] <annevk> the /idref/ thing is crazy though, because it also works for elements that do not have a predefined relationship
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  1243. # [22:55] <Hixie> annevk: no different from how [foo~=bar] also works for attributes that don't exist or don't take a space-separated list
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  1247. # [23:00] <hsivonen> I see "This might be overkill." in the commit message for "palpable content". No kidding.
  1248. # [23:00] * hsivonen mumbles about the time when Opera ignored empty paragraphs thanks to HTML4
  1249. # [23:01] <Hixie> heh
  1250. # [23:01] <Hixie> at least this text clearly only applies to conformance checkers, or even not those but to linters.
  1251. # [23:04] * Quits: Margle (~Margle@41-133-197-169.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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  1253. # [23:06] <ojan> Hixie: webkit and gecko have implemented :matches, but as :any
  1254. # [23:06] <ojan> Hixie: why is :matches bad for perf?
  1255. # [23:07] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Hixie's talking about something else that happens to have the same name.
  1256. # [23:07] <ojan> oh
  1257. # [23:07] <Hixie> ojan: what does :any() do?
  1258. # [23:07] <ojan> um...ok
  1259. # [23:07] <TabAtkins_> ojan: His old proposal, basically identical to :has(), was called :matches().
  1260. # [23:07] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: :any() takes a list of selectors, and matches any of them.
  1261. # [23:07] <ojan> TabAtkins_: oh, that's totally different
  1262. # [23:07] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-149-69-40.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  1263. # [23:07] <ojan> nm
  1264. # [23:07] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: It can be thought of as a selector macro.
  1265. # [23:07] <Hixie> simple selectors, or selector chains?
  1266. # [23:08] <Hixie> as in, are combinators involved?
  1267. # [23:08] <ojan> Hixie: it's currently specced as "a sequence of simple selectors" i believe
  1268. # [23:08] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: ":any(ul,ol) :any(ul,ol) {}" is equal to "ul ul, ul ol, ol ul, ol ol".
  1269. # [23:08] <ojan> Hixie: currently no
  1270. # [23:08] <Hixie> ah ok
  1271. # [23:08] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  1272. # [23:08] <Hixie> so basically just an "or"
  1273. # [23:08] <ojan> Hixie: yeah
  1274. # [23:08] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Yeah, no combinators. List of compound selectors.
  1275. # [23:08] <TabAtkins_> Using the current Selectors4 terminology.
  1276. # [23:08] <ojan> even with combinators it would still just be an "or" no?
  1277. # [23:08] <annevk> Hixie, true enough, not sure how much sense that made
  1278. # [23:08] <ojan> any(div > span, #foo)
  1279. # [23:08] <TabAtkins_> ojan: It's less clear what's going on if combinators are involved, unless you define it basically as a macro.
  1280. # [23:09] <ojan> TabAtkins_: i don't see what's unclear about it
  1281. # [23:09] <TabAtkins_> (I think it *should* be defined that way.)
  1282. # [23:09] <ojan> TabAtkins_: I guess I only see one way to define it
  1283. # [23:10] <ojan> TabAtkins_: conceptually, when seeing if a element matches the selector, you evaluate each selector in the list and it matches if any of them do.
  1284. # [23:10] <ojan> TabAtkins_: what am i missing?
  1285. # [23:10] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Another way to define it is to match an element to any of the selectors within. It's somewhat less clear what that means if you have complex selectors.
  1286. # [23:11] <ojan> TabAtkins_: i don't understand the difference
  1287. # [23:11] <TabAtkins_> ojan: You *can't* just say "does the element match 'div span' or 'p' in ':any(div span, p)'?".
  1288. # [23:11] <TabAtkins_> "foo :any(bar baz, qux)" is equivalent to "foo bar baz, foo qux", not "foo bar baz, foo qux, bar foo baz".
  1289. # [23:12] <TabAtkins_> There's an ordering constraint in there.
  1290. # [23:12] <Hixie> wow that's confusing
  1291. # [23:12] <ojan> TabAtkins_: yes, i don't see how that's controversial
  1292. # [23:12] <ojan> or confusing
  1293. # [23:12] <ojan> it seems to me like the obvious meaning
  1294. # [23:12] <ojan> Hixie: which one is confusing?
  1295. # [23:12] <TabAtkins_> ojan: If you define it as just "does the element match any of the arguments?", it's unclear which of those interpretations you want.
  1296. # [23:13] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1297. # [23:13] <TabAtkins_> I think it's obvious, yes, but you have to define it properly.
  1298. # [23:13] <Hixie> ojan: that :any(...).a > :any(...).b might match a situation where .a and .b are not parent and child respectively
  1299. # [23:13] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: No, you misunderstand.
  1300. # [23:13] <ojan> TabAtkins_: sure, but if you define it the obvious way, what is the perf problem?
  1301. # [23:14] <ojan> Hixie: i don't see how
  1302. # [23:14] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: In ".a :any(.b .c, .d)", if you go with the 'simple' interpretation of "does the element match any selector, when evaluated globally?", the following are equivalent:
  1303. # [23:14] <TabAtkins_> .a .b .c, .b .a .c, .a.b .c, .a .d
  1304. # [23:15] <TabAtkins_> Because the unrestricted "does it match?" question loses the constraints you want.
  1305. # [23:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: so what does :any(q r, s).a > :any(w x, y).b expand to?
  1306. # [23:15] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  1307. # [23:15] <TabAtkins_> In the *proper* way of doing it, or the sillier way I just talked about?
  1308. # [23:15] <ojan> TabAtkins_: lets just talk the proper way
  1309. # [23:16] <ojan> TabAtkins_: the silly way is clearly crazy
  1310. # [23:16] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: whatever you think is the right way
  1311. # [23:16] <TabAtkins_> In the proper way, it's "q r.a > w x.b, q r.a > y.b, s.a > w x.b, s.a > y.b".
  1312. # [23:16] <Hixie> ok so like i said, it means :any(...).a > :any(...).b might match a situation where .a and .b are not parent and child respectively
  1313. # [23:16] <TabAtkins_> Huh?
  1314. # [23:16] <TabAtkins_> How did you get that?
  1315. # [23:17] <Hixie> it can match in a situation where <r class=a> is the grandparent of <x class=b>
  1316. # [23:17] <TabAtkins_> Oh, yes.
  1317. # [23:17] <TabAtkins_> If you allow complex selectors, not just compound.
  1318. # [23:18] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1319. # [23:18] <ojan> Hixie: oh i see...meh. i don't see the problem with that.
  1320. # [23:18] <ojan> Hixie: it's a contrived example that you wouldn't really hit in the real world
  1321. # [23:18] <Hixie> on what do you base that?
  1322. # [23:18] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Right now, though, we restrict it to taking compound selectors.
  1323. # [23:19] <ojan> Hixie: let me rephrase....
  1324. # [23:19] <TabAtkins_> So the .a and .b elements will always have a parent-child relationship.
  1325. # [23:19] <ojan> Hixie: what TabAtkins_ said...there is always a parent-child relationship there...
  1326. # [23:19] <Hixie> come gain?
  1327. # [23:19] <ojan> Hixie: which, if you were to write it without :any would have the same problem
  1328. # [23:19] <TabAtkins_> ojan: No, Hixie's right given the higher-powered version of :any
  1329. # [23:20] <Hixie> now i'm really confused :-P
  1330. # [23:20] <ojan> Maybe i'm not understanding....
  1331. # [23:20] <TabAtkins_> ojan: It's just that, in the current spec, we have a lower-powered version that doesn't have the problem.
  1332. # [23:20] <Hixie> but we may be talking at cross-purposes
  1333. # [23:20] <ojan> we need a DOM for this example
  1334. # [23:20] <TabAtkins_> "problem"
  1335. # [23:20] <Hixie> anyway
  1336. # [23:20] <ojan> TabAtkins_: i get that the current version doesn't have the issue
  1337. # [23:20] * Hixie goes back to picketing for his original :matches(), despite the perf isues
  1338. # [23:20] <ojan> in either case, there's no perf issue if we allow combinators
  1339. # [23:20] <ojan> it's just a question of whether the semantics are confusing
  1340. # [23:21] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: You really need to stop calling it "matches". It confuses everyone else. ^_^
  1341. # [23:21] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Yes, that's right.
  1342. # [23:21] <ojan> =TabAtkins_
  1343. # [23:21] <ojan> :matches is way overloaded now
  1344. # [23:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: hey, dude, i made it up first. :-P
  1345. # [23:21] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Too bad!
  1346. # [23:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: plus, :matches() is _exactly_ what it does
  1347. # [23:21] <ojan> I still would like to see the selectors4 spec s/matches/any/
  1348. # [23:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: the other one should be renamed :or()
  1349. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> Can anyone else reproduce this? http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=101791
  1350. # [23:22] <ojan> I'd be fine with :or or :any
  1351. # [23:22] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: :or() is confusing, because we're used to "or" coming *between* options, rather than being the name of a function that precedes the options.
  1352. # [23:22] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Agreed that :any() is better.
  1353. # [23:22] <Hixie> :any() wfm too
  1354. # [23:22] <ojan> Hixie: you have a pointer to your :matches proposal?
  1355. # [23:22] <ojan> i saw it ages ago, but i don't remember how it worked now
  1356. # [23:22] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: wfm (no sad tab)
  1357. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, what version/platform?
  1358. # [23:23] * annevk also thought renaming it to :matches was weird
  1359. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Linux 64bit, Chrome 15 beta.
  1360. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> I mean AryehGregor in that last line.
  1361. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> It's a regression.
  1362. # [23:23] <Hixie> ojan: not off-hand, it'll be in www-style around 2002 or so. But in principle, :matches(...) takes a selector that must be matched by the eelement on which the pseudo is given
  1363. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> Only started in Chrome 16, I think.
  1364. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> It used to work for me too.
  1365. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> Ah, kk. Let me upgrade.
  1366. # [23:24] <Hixie> ojan: so p:matches(.a .b) is equivalent to .a p.b
  1367. # [23:24] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  1368. # [23:24] <Hixie> ojan: but p:matches(.a .b):matches(.x .b) is equivalent to saying that the p.b element must have as ancestor both a .x and a .a, though it doesn't matter if they're the same or if not which is the deeper ancestor
  1369. # [23:25] <ojan> Hixie: why is this better?
  1370. # [23:25] <Hixie> ojan: (the only other aspect is that you can use "#" in the :matches() selector to say where the pseudo's element is to match, as in p:matches(a # b) is equivalent to "a p b")
  1371. # [23:25] <Hixie> ojan: better than what?
  1372. # [23:25] <ojan> than :any
  1373. # [23:25] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Don't try and compare it to the Selectors4 :matches. They're not the same thing.
  1374. # [23:25] <Hixie> ojan: :any and :matches are unrelated
  1375. # [23:26] <TabAtkins_> Completely different function.
  1376. # [23:26] <ojan> oh...so they're not mutually exclusive
  1377. # [23:26] <ojan> i see
  1378. # [23:26] <ojan> what's the use-case for Hixie's :matches?
  1379. # [23:26] <TabAtkins_> ojan: The same use-case as :has() or the subject indicator.
  1380. # [23:26] <Hixie> ojan: (:any() would complement :matches() quite well in fact)
  1381. # [23:26] <Hixie> ojan: :has() is basically :matches() but always starting with the #
  1382. # [23:26] <Hixie> ojan: as in :has(foo) is equivalent to :matches(# foo)
  1383. # [23:27] <ojan> i see
  1384. # [23:27] <Hixie> ojan: :matches() basically solves almost all the limitations of selectors in one simple (and performance-impacting) swoop.
  1385. # [23:27] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1386. # [23:27] <Hixie> well, not all the limitations
  1387. # [23:27] <Hixie> it doesn't help with grouping
  1388. # [23:27] <Hixie> but all the limitations of being able to reference ancestors, descendants, etc
  1389. # [23:27] <ojan> oh i see...because it gives one syntactic way of doing all the things we're adding extra stuff for (e.g. parent combinators)
  1390. # [23:28] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126)
  1391. # [23:28] <Hixie> yeah
  1392. # [23:28] <ojan> makes sense to me
  1393. # [23:28] <ojan> and it gives one thing to tell web devs not to ever use because it's crazy slow
  1394. # [23:28] <Hixie> yeah
  1395. # [23:28] <ojan> instead of a dozen tthings
  1396. # [23:28] <ojan> i buy it
  1397. # [23:28] <Hixie> mind you, it really does make it _crazy_ slow
  1398. # [23:29] <ojan> i expect it does in degenerate cases
  1399. # [23:29] <ojan> but i haven't really thoguht it through
  1400. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> This is why I'm so much more interested in filing bugs against Gecko than any other piece of software I know about: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697793
  1401. # [23:29] <Hixie> :matches(# .foo) -- matches every element that has a .foo descendant. imagine a 5mb doc like the html spec.
  1402. # [23:29] <Hixie> for every element, you have to crawl the entire subtree
  1403. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> It should be fine for querySelector(), right?
  1404. # [23:29] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-szcqoxnsceeohgnq) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  1405. # [23:30] <Hixie> AryehGregor: well it'd still be slow, but it wouldn't have to happen every time the mouse moved, at least
  1406. # [23:30] <AryehGregor> I mean, it might be slow, but authors have the tools to notice that.
  1407. # [23:30] <Hixie> (:focus:matches(# :hover) *shudder*)
  1408. # [23:30] <ojan> Hixie: ok...you've sold me. :matches makes sense to add and what's currently :matches should really be :any.
  1409. # [23:30] <Hixie> sweet
  1410. # [23:30] <Hixie> i wasn't even trying to sell you :-)
  1411. # [23:31] <AryehGregor> Allowing such a thing in actual CSS files sounds like a seriously bad idea.
  1412. # [23:31] <ojan> AryehGregor: we should either allow none of them, or add something generic like :matches
  1413. # [23:31] <annevk> Hixie, cache manifests don't seem to allow for FF, maybe it should simply be banned from text/vtt?
  1414. # [23:31] <ojan> AryehGregor: what we seem to be doing currently is adding a bunch of one-offs
  1415. # [23:31] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it's certainly better than $ or ? or < or :has(), so if we're adding any of those, we should just do :matches(), imho
  1416. # [23:32] <ojan> =Hixie
  1417. # [23:32] <Hixie> annevk: *shrug*
  1418. # [23:32] * Joins: slightlyoff (u1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gpdfrxnygmvkiehs)
  1419. # [23:32] <ojan> I'd also be OK with not adding any of them.
  1420. # [23:32] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.121.205) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1421. # [23:32] <annevk> Y U NO CARE
  1422. # [23:33] <ojan> annevk: will you be in town for TPAC?
  1423. # [23:33] <Hixie> bbiab, meeting
  1424. # [23:33] <hober> ojan: annevk: there will be beers involved (re: tpac)
  1425. # [23:34] <ojan> it'll be nice to meet everyone in person
  1426. # [23:35] * Quits: _pdr__ (anonymous@nat/google/x-zhrydalftjxuderb) (Quit: _pdr__)
  1427. # [23:36] <annevk> I'm coming on Sunday
  1428. # [23:36] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  1429. # [23:36] <annevk> and yes, I'm looking forward to meeting everyone too :)
  1430. # [23:37] <ojan> annevk: are you staying in SF or the south bay while you're here?
  1431. # [23:37] <annevk> and beers :)
  1432. # [23:37] <annevk> I'm staying in Santa Clara but might go to SF in the weekend
  1433. # [23:38] <annevk> after not sure yet, leaving the ninth
  1434. # [23:38] <ojan> annevk: k. i'll probably only be at tpac monday and tuesday, but i live/work in SF.
  1435. # [23:39] <annevk> ah, in the Google SF office?
  1436. # [23:39] <ojan> annevk: yeah
  1437. # [23:39] <annevk> cool
  1438. # [23:39] <ojan> annevk: you're welcome to come for lunch here one day
  1439. # [23:39] <annevk> might take you up on that :)
  1440. # [23:39] * Joins: wycats (u79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lqrkwxymsfvzapfj)
  1441. # [23:39] <wycats> Hixie: hey... I was wondering why the new validation events don't bubble
  1442. # [23:40] <wycats> there's an open thread on the jQuery Standards list about it :)
  1443. # [23:40] <ojan> annevk: a lot of the chromium folk who work on webkit work in SF
  1444. # [23:41] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1445. # [23:41] <ojan> annevk: we should chat in person about the various dom creation proposals
  1446. # [23:41] <wycats> ojan: what do you think about the Element constructor proposal?
  1447. # [23:41] <ojan> wycats: which one?
  1448. # [23:42] <wycats> I guess the one that takes an object of attributes and children?
  1449. # [23:42] * Joins: eae (u4278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pjevvjujgeicbpaf)
  1450. # [23:42] <ojan> wycats: there are things i really like about it and things i like less...
  1451. # [23:42] <ojan> wycats: well...there are multiple such proposals...
  1452. # [23:43] <annevk> ojan, yeah that'd be nice
  1453. # [23:43] <ojan> wycats: the one i really like is the one annevk suggested with the funky json/array syntax
  1454. # [23:43] <ojan> wycats: the thing i really like about that is that in theory, you can construct DOMs much faster than you could if you needed to parse HTML
  1455. # [23:43] <wycats> ojan: I like it too
  1456. # [23:43] <ojan> wycats: on the other hand, it's not terribly readable
  1457. # [23:44] <wycats> ojan: the fact that new DivElement straight up doesn't work today is pretty broken
  1458. # [23:44] <wycats> ojan: I was thinking that allowing a tagName as first param might make it more readable
  1459. # [23:44] <wycats> new Element("div", { id: "zomg" })
  1460. # [23:44] <ojan> i've slowly come to believe that the quasis approach may be the best
  1461. # [23:44] <ojan> wycats: yeah, it's hard to come up with a syntax that works better than what annevk suggested
  1462. # [23:45] <wycats> ojan: I think the only thing I could improve over annevk would be allowing new Element instead of new FooElement
  1463. # [23:45] <ojan> wycats: because i think it's important we maintain that passing just a string can get you a text node
  1464. # [23:45] <wycats> ah interesting
  1465. # [23:45] <wycats> even to new Element
  1466. # [23:45] <wycats> I guess the problem is that new Element wouldn't return a direct instance of Element
  1467. # [23:45] <ojan> maybe not...but then what do you for the children case
  1468. # [23:45] <wycats> you would want new Element("div") to return a DivElement
  1469. # [23:46] <ojan> new Element(tagName, attributes, children...)
  1470. # [23:46] * Quits: nielsle_ (~nielsle@3239059-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1471. # [23:46] <wycats> new Element("div", { id: "foo" }, [ new Element("span"), "some text" ])
  1472. # [23:46] <ojan> Needing to repeat "new Element" when constructing the children is too bloated IMO
  1473. # [23:46] <ojan> it's less readable and just too much typing
  1474. # [23:46] <wycats> ojan: you could allow a hash, I guess?
  1475. # [23:46] <ojan> remember the thing we're competing with is innerHTML here
  1476. # [23:47] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GZYYYKMDCLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  1477. # [23:47] <wycats> new Element("div", { id: "foo" }, [ { span: { id: "hi", children: ["string", { em: ["some text"] }] } } ])
  1478. # [23:47] <ojan> if i could have my cake and eat it too, right now I'd want to see us implement *both* annevk's array-based proposal and quasis with a native "html" function.
  1479. # [23:47] <ojan> they're not actually mutually exclusive in any way
  1480. # [23:48] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Yes, both are complementary for different things.
  1481. # [23:48] <ojan> and actually meet different use-cases, althought there is certainly overlap
  1482. # [23:48] * Quits: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk) (Quit: ...)
  1483. # [23:48] <ojan> and annevk's array-based proposal is really straightforward to spec and implement, so it doesn't really present a burden on browser vendors
  1484. # [23:49] <ojan> annevk: i liked the E4H proposal at first, but people have convinced me that quasis are a better solution...we can chat about it in person next week
  1485. # [23:50] <wycats> ojan: the most useful thing for jQuery would be the ability to do fragment.innerHTML = "<tr><td>hi</td></tr>"
  1486. # [23:50] <wycats> essentially have a way to make HTML nodes where the root nodes don't care about their context
  1487. # [23:51] <wycats> we jump through major hoops in jQuery to make $("<tr><td>hi</td></tr>").appendTo("table") work
  1488. # [23:51] <ojan> wycats: yeah...i agree it's totally balls
  1489. # [23:51] <ojan> wycats: but all of these proposals address that use-case fine
  1490. # [23:51] <wycats> ojan: not really
  1491. # [23:51] <wycats> because the jQuery API is "gimme string"
  1492. # [23:51] <wycats> not "gimme some structure"
  1493. # [23:52] <wycats> I see the new APIs as competing with document.createElement more than innerHTML tbh
  1494. # [23:52] <kennyluck> Is there any problem if browsers ignore media type of a manifest? I think this was probably discussed to death but I would be grateful if someone reminds me again.
  1495. # [23:52] <ojan> wycats: but if you implement $("<tr><td>hi</td></tr>") in terms of the new API, it should just work, no?
  1496. # [23:52] <wycats> how do we do that?
  1497. # [23:53] <wycats> parse the HTML manually?
  1498. # [23:53] <ojan> hm...i guess you're right...this doesn't help jquery at all.
  1499. # [23:54] <wycats> "[
  1500. # [23:54] <wycats> :p
  1501. # [23:55] <ojan> wycats: i think it's an orthogonal issue...erik arvidsson made a proposal recently to whatwg@ make createContextualFragment do what you want if the range is in a detached context
  1502. # [23:55] <wycats> ojan: nice
  1503. # [23:55] <ojan> wycats: i'm still pro that as the solution to your problem
  1504. # [23:55] <wycats> ojan: do you know what the subject line is?
  1505. # [23:55] <wycats> ojan: I think right now that case throws an error
  1506. # [23:56] <ojan> wycats: yeah, so it's probably backwards compatible to change it...
  1507. # [23:56] <ojan> wycats: "createContextualFragment in detached contexts"
  1508. # [23:56] <wycats> ojan: I'll go +1
  1509. # [23:56] <wycats> it would save a ton of work in jQuery
  1510. # [23:56] <wycats> I was able to make jQuery a lot faster in the case of $("table").append("<tr><td>...</td></tr>")
  1511. # [23:57] <wycats> because I have a context for a contextual fragment in that case
  1512. # Session Close: Fri Oct 28 00:00:00 2011

The end :)