/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-10-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 29 00:00:02 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:08] <kennyluck> Hmm.. the mbox archive output by whatwg.org doesn't do >From quotation.
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  11. # [00:14] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  12. # [00:14] <ojan> Hixie: is the case-sensitivity of attribute names for svg in html specified anywhere?
  13. # [00:14] <ojan> Hixie: i'm having trouble finding it in the html spec
  14. # [00:14] <Hixie> case-sensitivity in what sense?
  15. # [00:15] <ojan> Hixie: in regular html, attribute names are lowercased
  16. # [00:15] <Hixie> you mean when parsing?
  17. # [00:15] <ojan> Hixie: in regular svg, attribute names keep their case
  18. # [00:15] <ojan> Hixie: yeah
  19. # [00:15] <Hixie> aah
  20. # [00:16] <Hixie> yeah that's in the parser
  21. # [00:16] <Hixie> hold on
  22. # [00:16] <Hixie> i'll give you a search string
  23. # [00:16] <ojan> Hixie: great
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  25. # [00:16] <Hixie> search for "adjust SVG attributes"
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  27. # [00:18] <ojan> Hixie: so basically, we parse it ignoring case and then spit out the case-sensitive result?
  28. # [00:18] <Hixie> yeah
  29. # [00:18] <Hixie> well
  30. # [00:18] <Hixie> we spit out a case-normalised result
  31. # [00:18] <ojan> Hixie: e.g. paThLength -> pathLength ?
  32. # [00:18] <Hixie> right
  33. # [00:18] <ojan> Hixie: ok...here's the problem we're running into...
  34. # [00:19] <Hixie> paThLength in the markup becomes pathlength in the parser becomes pathLength in the DOM
  35. # [00:19] <ojan> Hixie: selector parsing says the case-sensitivity of attirbute name/value parsing depends on the document type
  36. # [00:19] <ojan> Hixie: so, webkit always lowercases attribute names in html documents
  37. # [00:20] <Hixie> that's changed iirc
  38. # [00:20] <ojan> Hixie: so now *[pathLength] doesn't match <svg pathLength="...">
  39. # [00:20] <ojan> because the attribute name in the selector is lowercased and the one on the svg element isn't
  40. # [00:20] <ojan> Hixie: it doesn't seemd changed to me in the selectors 4 spec
  41. # [00:21] <Hixie> hmm, i may be thinking of attribute _values_
  42. # [00:21] <ojan> Hixie: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#attribute-case
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  44. # [00:21] <Hixie> yeah i'm thinking of values, don't mind me
  45. # [00:21] <Hixie> let's see
  46. # [00:22] <Hixie> ok so the HTML spec says that "and element names of HTML elements in HTML documents must be treated as ASCII case-insensitive for the purposes of selector matching"
  47. # [00:22] <Hixie> so [pathLength] should match <div pathlength> but not <svg pathlength>
  48. # [00:23] <ojan> Hixie: yes...but the problem is that it's currently impossible as speced to match <svg pathlength>
  49. # [00:24] <Hixie> [pathLength] would match it
  50. # [00:24] <Hixie> since the parser would convert it to pathLength in the DOM
  51. # [00:25] <ojan> Hixie: oh...i guess it's technically wrong that webkit lowercases the attribute name in the css parser
  52. # [00:25] <ojan> it should just be doing a case-insensitive compare
  53. # [00:25] <ojan> for html elements
  54. # [00:25] <Hixie> yeah
  55. # [00:25] <Hixie> html elements in html documents
  56. # [00:25] <ojan> right
  57. # [00:25] <ojan> sigh
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  59. # [00:32] <ojan> Hixie: arv is suggesting that selector attribute matching in an HTML document shoudl always be case-insensitive regardless of what element you're matching
  60. # [00:34] <ojan> Hixie: why not make svg attributes in html documents lowercase like all other attributes?
  61. # [00:34] <Hixie> well the attributes being lowercase would mean that there'd be two SVG vocabularies
  62. # [00:34] <Hixie> one with lowercase names and one not
  63. # [00:34] <Hixie> which would have rammifications i can't even fully imagine
  64. # [00:35] <hober> ojan: DOM Consistency, basically
  65. # [00:35] <Hixie> but would certainly be a disaster for implementors
  66. # [00:35] <Hixie> consider the confusion that would result from taking an SVG file and moving the nodes to an HTML file and finding it all stopped working, e.g.
  67. # [00:35] <Hixie> anyway, that's one thing
  68. # [00:36] <Hixie> the other thing is case-sensitivity
  69. # [00:36] <Hixie> i don't really mind what we do there, that's an issue for the css and svg groups to decide
  70. # [00:36] <Hixie> i expect css would say it's up to svg, css just delegates to the host language
  71. # [00:36] <Hixie> and i've no idea what the svg group would want
  72. # [00:36] <Hixie> i haven't worked out what their operating principles are
  73. # [00:36] <shepazu> I could ask them
  74. # [00:37] <shepazu> for SVG2, we are not claiming it is an XML syntax, but a DOM one
  75. # [00:37] <Hixie> ojan, shepazu; shepazu, ojan.
  76. # [00:37] * Hixie steps back :-0
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  78. # [00:37] <shepazu> (though there is, of course, an XML parsing)
  79. # [00:38] <ojan> Hixie, shepazu: people here are suggesting that maybe we should do the HTML normalization of svg attribute names at attribute matching time
  80. # [00:38] <shepazu> Hixie: at least, that's what I said in the charter that's up for review now
  81. # [00:38] <Hixie> ojan: what would that mean?
  82. # [00:38] * shepazu is not sure what the implications of that are, ojan
  83. # [00:40] <shepazu> Hixie: fyi http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/2011/charter.html
  84. # [00:40] <shepazu> [[
  85. # [00:40] <shepazu> The SVG WG develops the following technologies: A markup syntax, compatible with XML and HTML5 parsing, for describing shapes, text, and painting effects, including gradients, filters, and other graphical effects, through a set of elements and attributes.
  86. # [00:40] <shepazu> ]]
  87. # [00:41] <shepazu> so, I don't say "DOM", but that's the implication
  88. # [00:41] <shepazu> (or something)
  89. # [00:42] <ojan> shepazu: the implication is that *[pathlength] would match <svg pathLength=5>
  90. # [00:43] <Hixie> ojan: would it match <div pathlength>?
  91. # [00:43] <shepazu> ojan: seems friendly to me, but not sure about the implementation fallout
  92. # [00:43] <ojan> Hixie: yeah
  93. # [00:43] <Hixie> shepazu: "a markup syntax, compatible with XML and HTML5 parsing" is, like, the opposite of a "DOM"...
  94. # [00:43] <shepazu> Hixie: ok, patches welcome
  95. # [00:43] <ojan> it's a performance tradeoff as far as implementation is concerned
  96. # [00:44] <Hixie> shepazu: i think charters are irrelevant, so i don't mind either way, i'm just saying that if you meant to say DOM, you should be aware that what you just quoted says the opposite :-)
  97. # [00:44] <shepazu> ojan: I'm more concerned about backward-compatibility
  98. # [00:44] <Hixie> ojan: i don't understand what "do the HTML normalization of svg attribute names at attribute matching time" means then.
  99. # [00:44] <ojan> with *[pathlength] matching <svg pathLength=5>, you can store only the lower-cased copy of the attribute name and for html elements, the name comparison is very fast, but it's slower for svg elements
  100. # [00:44] <shepazu> Hixie: too jetlagged to follow you, but interested to hear an explanation I could unpack later
  101. # [00:45] <ojan> Hixie: basically...when parsing *[pathLenGTH] we'd normalize it to *[pathlength]...
  102. # [00:45] <Hixie> shepazu: sure, ping me if you want to talk about it
  103. # [00:45] <Hixie> ojan: how do you know to normalize it?
  104. # [00:45] <ojan> Hixie: then when doing selector matching, if it's an SVG element we'd actually compare to pathLength
  105. # [00:45] <erlehmann> ojan, but pathLenGTH is WRONG
  106. # [00:45] <erlehmann> oh okey
  107. # [00:45] <ojan> erlehmann: for HTML elements, it would match
  108. # [00:46] <erlehmann> i hate every single member of your working group for that
  109. # [00:46] <erlehmann> ;)
  110. # [00:46] <Hixie> ojan: i mean, what if MathML had a "foobar" attribute and SVG had a "fooBar" attribute?
  111. # [00:46] <erlehmann> Hixie, namespac- oh wait.
  112. # [00:47] <Hixie> ojan: and would you match [pathlength] to an <svg> element that had a "pathlength" attribute manually set in the DOM? (lowercase, so not the real pathLength one?)
  113. # [00:47] <ojan> Hixie: what about it? *[foobAr] would match both of them
  114. # [00:47] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  115. # [00:47] <ojan> Hixie: yeah...i guess that doens't make sense
  116. # [00:47] <ojan> Hixie: sigh...svg in html... :(
  117. # [00:47] <erlehmann> well, seems “claiming SVG is not XML, but a DOM syntax” needs some work.
  118. # [00:48] <Hixie> ojan: "just" do the comparison case-insensitively against HTML elements and case-sensitively against non-HTML elements
  119. # [00:48] <ojan> Hixie: yeah...fine.
  120. # [00:48] <Hixie> ojan: it means having both strings in the comparison function, and one extra pointer check for each node
  121. # [00:48] <Hixie> ojan: not the end of the world
  122. # [00:48] <ojan> Hixie: yeah
  123. # [00:48] <Hixie> perf-wise
  124. # [00:49] <ojan> Hixie: yeah...it means storing an extra string if you want to keep the performance for html element matching
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  126. # [00:49] <Hixie> yeah but you have that extra string anyway today, right
  127. # [00:49] <ojan> but attribute selectors are not widely used enought for it to really matter
  128. # [00:49] <erlehmann> why not something like *[html:pathlenght|svg:pathLength]
  129. # [00:49] <Hixie> or are you flattening it during parsing?
  130. # [00:49] <ojan> Hixie: no, right now webkit only stores the lowercased string
  131. # [00:49] <erlehmann> what am i missing?
  132. # [00:49] <Hixie> css parsing
  133. # [00:49] <ojan> yeah
  134. # [00:49] <Hixie> ah ok
  135. # [00:49] <Hixie> yeah that's unfortunate
  136. # [00:49] <Hixie> are you atom-ifying these strings?
  137. # [00:49] <ojan> meh, like you said it's not a big deal
  138. # [00:50] <ojan> Hixie: atom-ifying?
  139. # [00:50] <Hixie> whatever terminology webkit uses... converting them to a pointer rather than storing the literal string
  140. # [00:50] <ojan> Hixie: ah. yes.
  141. # [00:50] <Hixie> ok so it's really just one extra pointer
  142. # [00:50] <Hixie> plus a pointer check
  143. # [00:51] <Hixie> plus you get to flatten the logic for xml and html
  144. # [00:51] <ojan> Hixie: i'm not sure we'd atomify the non-lowercased string
  145. # [00:52] <Hixie> why not?
  146. # [00:52] <ojan> Hixie: creating AtomicStrings isn't free
  147. # [00:52] <ojan> Hixie: the main reason you do it is so you can have quick string comparisons
  148. # [00:52] <Hixie> yeah but the cost has to be offset against the many comparisons you're going to be doing
  149. # [00:52] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  150. # [00:52] <Hixie> and the same string will likely exist in the DOM too, right
  151. # [00:52] <Hixie> anyway
  152. # [00:53] <Hixie> what do i know :-)
  153. # [00:53] <ojan> oh...i guess for the non-lowercase one we'd still just be doing a case-senstiive comapre...so we probably would. you're right
  154. # [00:53] <ojan> yeah...so in the common case it would not be considerably more memroy
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  203. # [04:03] <ojan> roc: u gonna be a tpac?
  204. # [04:03] <roc> no
  205. # [04:04] <ojan> roc: k...just wondering
  206. # [04:04] <roc> I'm not a huge fan of face-to-face standards work to be honest
  207. # [04:05] <ojan> me neither really
  208. # [04:05] <ojan> but it's good to meet people in erspon
  209. # [04:05] <roc> yeah, I like that, but large groups freak me out
  210. # [04:06] <roc> where are you based btw?
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  213. # [04:23] <ojan> roc: sorry, was afk...
  214. # [04:23] <ojan> roc: i'm in SF..so this tpac is easy for me :)
  215. # [04:23] <ojan> i'll probably only be there mon/tues though
  216. # [04:24] <ojan> there was a while where i was in sydney frequently...but haven't been since april
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  235. # [05:41] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You should be able to test for type error using assert_throws(TypeError(), fun);
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  240. # [06:49] <annevk> Yeah so currently storing two pointers for Selector matching would yield the incorrect result.
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  242. # [06:50] <annevk> Because if you define an attribute named "HREF" through the DOM on an HTML element, that should still match [href] per current specifications.
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  244. # [06:50] <annevk> And it will in e.g. Gecko.
  245. # [06:51] <annevk> So either we need to drop the notion that Selector matching happens case-insensitively for HTML and require the double-pointer approach, or we all need to do case-insensitive matching.
  246. # [06:51] <annevk> Edge cases...
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  283. # [07:54] <annevk> Hmm, seems I should really get around to writing a WHATWG Weekly
  284. # [07:54] <Hixie> well i just gave you something to talk abuot
  285. # [07:55] <annevk> Yeah, but I already had a big list :)
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  289. # [08:19] <boblet> is there a <data> equivalent of <time pubdate> besides schema.org?
  290. # [08:19] <boblet> also, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html doesn't seem to load for me?
  291. # [08:20] <Hixie> boblet: well you can use any microdata vocabulary or microformats vocabulary, i guess :-)
  292. # [08:20] <Hixie> boblet: e.g. hAtom
  293. # [08:21] <Hixie> what is section-index supposed to be?
  294. # [08:22] <Hixie> looks like i'm getting it that way from anne
  295. # [08:23] <Hixie> annevk: i'm getting some weird stuff in the zip file, in fact
  296. # [08:23] <boblet> Hixie: trying to load http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html#attributes-1 to confirm @pubdate is dropped :)
  297. # [08:23] <Hixie> including a do-multipage-... file?
  298. # [08:23] <boblet> that’s the link in Index at the bottom of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  299. # [08:23] <Hixie> let me try to regen it manually
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  301. # [08:26] <Hixie> boblet: how's now?
  302. # [08:26] <annevk> Hixie, oh again? :(
  303. # [08:26] <boblet> Hixie: wfm
  304. # [08:26] <annevk> foolip made some changes recently
  305. # [08:26] <Hixie> annevk: looks like the section thing was a one-off error
  306. # [08:26] <Hixie> annevk: but there's a do-multipage-... file that seems odd
  307. # [08:26] <Hixie> annevk: dunno what it is
  308. # [08:27] <Hixie> annevk: it's ok otherwise
  309. # [08:27] <boblet> needing to move to a microdata/microformats vocab to convey pubdate (which I’d assume search engines would like) seems like a big increase in code. otoh i was wanting updated date anyhow. hrm
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  311. # [08:28] <annevk> Hixie, I think that's the file it fetches in order to do the update
  312. # [08:28] <Hixie> boblet: search engines want schema.org apparently :-)
  313. # [08:28] <Hixie> annevk: but why is it ending up in the archive?
  314. # [08:28] <annevk> because I'm doing a wget
  315. # [08:28] <Hixie> use -O - :-)
  316. # [08:29] <boblet> Hixie: if it works as an encouragement for everyone to change time@pubdate to schema.org/blogpost then sure that’s great
  317. # [08:30] <boblet> will have to write something for HTML5 Doctor now too, and publish something about microdata blogpost vocab. making us work again! sheesh :)
  318. # [08:31] <Hixie> :-)
  319. # [08:31] <Hixie> <time pubdate> was going nowhere fast
  320. # [08:31] <Hixie> and was disproportionally expensive in terms of what it required of implementations
  321. # [08:32] <Hixie> so...
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  323. # [08:34] <boblet> I was siding with <time> needing some time to implement (l10n stuff always takes forever), but if browsers can use <data itemprop="datePublished"> for the same purpose… <data> def. helps with adding microdata (crap, another two articles I’ll need to update >_<)
  324. # [08:35] <annevk> <time> would prolly have ended up like counters in CSS
  325. # [08:35] <annevk> kind of cool, but hardly used, and disproportionate complexity
  326. # [08:35] <boblet> Hixie: btw, did you read the <u> element article? I had several quotes from you in there http://html5doctor.com/u-element
  327. # [08:36] <boblet> annevk: is this CSS2.1 or CSS3? ;)
  328. # [08:36] <boblet> TabAtkins’ rewrite is much cleaner
  329. # [08:36] <boblet> really looking forward to that being implemented
  330. # [08:38] <annevk> boblet, 2
  331. # [08:38] <annevk> boblet, is css3-lists touching counters?
  332. # [08:38] <annevk> boblet, I thought that was just lists and stuff
  333. # [08:42] <boblet> annevk: I thought css3 lists would be flexible enough to do the same use-cases, but I’m prolly just confused
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  335. # [08:44] <annevk> boblet, counters can be used for way more than lists
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  337. # [08:46] <annevk> boblet, does not seem like css3-lists defines counter-increment and such, it does refer to them
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  341. # [09:00] <matjas> so, is <data data-data=data>data</data> now valid HTML?
  342. # [09:00] <annevk> no
  343. # [09:01] <annevk> value is required
  344. # [09:01] <matjas> i see
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  346. # [09:07] <matjas> no replacement for `valueAsDate`? :(
  347. # [09:10] <annevk> does new Date() not do that?
  348. # [09:11] <annevk> bah
  349. # [09:11] <annevk> web-apps-tracker is generating errors :(
  350. # [09:13] <matjas> hovering over the data element section brings up a link to the abbr element: http://i.imgur.com/HIWhh.png typo?
  351. # [09:14] <matjas> in the last example, should the <data> element be closed explicitly? <tr> <td> 1830 <td> <data value="8">Eight</data> <td> <data value="93">19+74 hexes (93 total)
  352. # [09:14] <annevk> the first is prolly because <data> does not have its own section yet
  353. # [09:14] <annevk> the second is a bug
  354. # [09:15] <annevk> I guess html5.org went over some storage limit
  355. # [09:15] <annevk> 50 GiB or so
  356. # [09:16] <annevk> I'll just empty the cache as a hack
  357. # [09:18] <annevk> whoa, it was approaching 60
  358. # [09:18] <annevk> way to go for simple SVN diffs
  359. # [09:18] <matjas> annevk: thanks for confirming, I’ll file it
  360. # [09:20] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  361. # [09:38] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-time-data
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  386. # [11:38] <roc> annevk: what did you think about my fullscreen suggestion for a fullscreen element stack?
  387. # [11:39] <annevk> I suggested that in http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-October/033549.html but responses were not enthusiastic
  388. # [11:42] <roc> I don't think they thought through the implications
  389. # [11:43] <roc> the nested case is not some complex edge case that most apps can't hit. You can hit it as soon as you can make a document full-screen that contains some other content that supports full-screen, which could easily happen by accident even
  390. # [11:44] <roc> as soon as you have a document that supports full-screen that might contain an embedded Youtube video, for example
  391. # [11:45] <roc> I'll follow up to that thread
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  393. # [11:48] <annevk> Please only talk about making elements fullscreen though
  394. # [11:48] <annevk> We're not really making documents fullscreen
  395. # [11:48] <roc> ok
  396. # [11:51] <annevk> One alternative is making requestFullscreen always do its thing and exitFullscreen always do a full exit
  397. # [11:51] <roc> that seems broken
  398. # [11:52] <annevk> Yeah, though given the number of different scenarios I think the user will always find it confusing :(
  399. # [11:52] <roc> we can at least make the simple things work
  400. # [11:53] <annevk> If the user is already fullscreen for instance (by using F11) and then gets the message that "Esc" will get him/her out but it will actually not...
  401. # [11:53] <roc> actually it will
  402. # [11:54] <roc> "Esc" has to always bust out of all fullscreening
  403. # [11:54] <annevk> Gecko will exit browser fullscreen if element fullscreen is quit?
  404. # [11:54] <annevk> I doubt users will like that... It's not how browser fullscreen and YouTube behave today
  405. # [11:55] <roc> I'm not sure what the current behavior is, but I think it needs to break out
  406. # [11:56] <annevk> If I use fullscreen mode on Mac OS I don't want the browser to just exit that after I have watched a video
  407. # [11:56] <roc> well, that can be up to the UA
  408. # [11:58] <roc> if the UA is permanently in fullscreen mode then I don't think "press ESC to exit fullscreen" would ever be the right message to display
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  421. # [12:55] <benschwarz> heyo
  422. # [12:55] <benschwarz> annevk: whats the scoop with <time> ? #whatwg list?
  423. # [12:56] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13240 ?
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  425. # [12:56] <benschwarz> w3 change?
  426. # [12:56] <annevk> suggestion has been out there for several months
  427. # [12:56] <annevk> not sure what you mean
  428. # [12:56] <benschwarz> never caught it…
  429. # [12:57] <benschwarz> I was wondering where it orginated from
  430. # [12:57] <benschwarz> … people have already implemented time
  431. # [12:58] <benschwarz> annevk: so is the resolve to use <data> with a rel attribute? or… data-*?
  432. # [12:58] <annevk> depends on what you are trying to do
  433. # [12:59] <benschwarz> ok. so display the time that an article was published…
  434. # [12:59] <benschwarz> and er… I can't think of a more data driven example.
  435. # [12:59] <benschwarz> … its a strange change
  436. # [12:59] <annevk> prolly just <p class=meta> as before
  437. # [13:00] <annevk> just displaying doesn't need to be machine readable
  438. # [13:00] <annevk> but if you want it to be machine readable, the specification includes some examples using the http://schema.org/Blog vocabulary
  439. # [13:03] <benschwarz> no one uses schema vocabularies :)
  440. # [13:04] <benschwarz> (you know, in the real world)
  441. # [13:08] <annevk> yeah, I don't really care
  442. # [13:09] <annevk> I mean, I don't really care about schema.org or Microdata that much
  443. # [13:09] <annevk> it's better than RDFa, but still pretty complex and not too useful
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  445. # [13:11] <Tuju> is there a way to define CSS version when introducing it in xhtml headers?
  446. # [13:12] <annevk> CSS has no versions
  447. # [13:12] <benschwarz> annevk: well, I tend to agree. It means nothing to the real world, acedemics might argue… but the rest of the world isn't convinced :)
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  450. # [13:13] <Tuju> i just read about CSS tag overflow and it had comment 'this might change in version 2.1' - how are people supposed to design some appearance if terminal software don't know how they're supposed to interpret it?
  451. # [13:14] <Ms2ger> good morning, Whatwg!
  452. # [13:14] <annevk> Tuju, where does it say that?
  453. # [13:14] <annevk> Ms2ger, more like, midday?
  454. # [13:15] <Tuju> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visufx.html#overflow-clipping "Note. In CSS 2.1, all clipping regions are rectangular. We anticipate future extensions to permit non-rectangular clipping. Future updates may also reintroduce a syntax for offsetting shapes from each edge instead of offsetting from a point."
  455. # [13:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, sure
  456. # [13:16] <annevk> Tuju: the future extensions will degrade gracefully
  457. # [13:16] <Tuju> meaning that they don't change earlier behaviour?
  458. # [13:16] <annevk> Tuju: none of the languages for the web has versioning, software just interprets per whatever they implemented
  459. # [13:17] <annevk> Tuju: typically, though sometimes earlier behavior is changed if it doesn't cause too much problems
  460. # [13:17] <smaug____> JS has versioning
  461. # [13:17] <Tuju> annevk: that could very well be the reason why the web is such a mess.
  462. # [13:17] <smaug____> (thought I don't recall what HTML spec says about js versioning )
  463. # [13:17] <annevk> Tuju: see http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#degrade-gracefully for more information
  464. # [13:17] <Tuju> devs use that constantly as an excuse to produce invalid crap that don't render correctly.
  465. # [13:17] <smaug____> s/thought/though/
  466. # [13:17] <annevk> smaug____: mostly Mozilla proprietary
  467. # [13:18] <annevk> smaug____: and the "use strict"; mode switch of course
  468. # [13:18] <annevk> Tuju: "invalid crap" might change in the future
  469. # [13:19] <Tuju> annevk: what do you mean by that?
  470. # [13:19] <annevk> Tuju: so whoever is using that as excuse is wrong
  471. # [13:19] <Tuju> that's not a big relief.
  472. # [13:19] <annevk> Tuju: e.g. overflow-x:scroll was invalid at some point, but now it is valid
  473. # [13:19] <Tuju> page still does not work.
  474. # [13:19] <Ms2ger> smaug____, the HTML spec doesn't say anything, I believe.. It just says to support all the mime types
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  476. # [13:20] <annevk> it might say something about E4X
  477. # [13:20] <annevk> but that's obsolete now
  478. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> Mm, yeah
  479. # [13:20] <annevk> someone should prolly file a bug on that
  480. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> Why is it obsolete?
  481. # [13:21] <smaug_____> interesting. did I just manage to overheat this laptop
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  483. # [13:22] <annevk> Ms2ger: a) Brendan made E4X work without that flag and b) E4X is disabled in strict mode meaning it is on its way out
  484. # [13:22] * smaug_____ is now known as smaug____
  485. # [13:22] <annevk> Ms2ger: well, got disabled
  486. # [13:22] * annevk wonders why smaug____ is not just smaug
  487. # [13:22] <Ms2ger> Because it's a common nick
  488. # [13:22] <smaug____> because someone else is smaug
  489. # [13:22] <smaug____> in some other channel
  490. # [13:22] <Ms2ger> Lots of dragons on freenode
  491. # [13:22] <gsnedders> Why so many underscores?
  492. # [13:23] <smaug____> because someone else is using all the other forms of smaug_*
  493. # [13:23] <smaug____> ____ is just the tail
  494. # [13:25] <smaug____> annevk: what you mean with "Brendan made E4X work without that flag" ?
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  498. # [13:25] <smaug____> I thought you need a flag to enable it
  499. # [13:26] <annevk> no
  500. # [13:26] <annevk> you can just do
  501. # [13:26] <annevk> var x = <fancy/>
  502. # [13:26] <annevk> and you have some XML in your x
  503. # [13:28] <smaug____> really
  504. # [13:28] <smaug____> I thought you need some flag in the <script> element
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  506. # [13:33] <annevk> yeah before, but Brendan figured something out that worked around why that was required in the first place
  507. # [13:36] <Ms2ger> The problem was <!--, IIRC
  508. # [13:36] * Parts: Tuju (~tuju@176.75.219.213.sta.estpak.ee)
  509. # [13:37] <hsivonen> does Harmony try to do out of band or per-.js file versioning?
  510. # [13:38] <annevk> I hope neither
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  512. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> The idea was using type= :/
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  516. # [13:41] <annevk> ffs
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  524. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: when you have time, please take a look at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10174#c4
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  526. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> reproducible intermittent bug when trying to validate http://nisza.org/rendering_tests/utf-8-validation.html
  527. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in my environment, from a clean install and build from the upstream sources, I can reproduce this 100% of the time
  528. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> with that http://nisza.org/rendering_tests/utf-8-validation.html file
  529. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> I don't actually understand why in the W3C validator environment it doesn't occur 100% of time, except that must sometimes be gzipping it and other times not
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  592. # [19:42] <smaug____> annevk: does Opera use NSS?
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  594. # [19:47] <gsnedders> smaug____: No.
  595. # [19:48] <gsnedders> smaug____: Uses OpenSSL
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  674. # [23:25] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-qscbfjwxlsbadmcy) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  675. # [23:26] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  677. # [23:33] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
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  680. # [23:44] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925210074.dsl.bell.ca) (Client Quit)
  681. # [23:44] * Joins: cfq (~cfq@94-194-98-91.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
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  683. # [23:49] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e041dd3.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  684. # Session Close: Sun Oct 30 00:00:00 2011

The end :)