/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 02 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:09] <roc> Hixie: we need to make some changes to the spec for plugin instantiation for Web compatibility ... would you prefer a W3C bug or a WHATWG email?
  12. # [00:09] <Hixie> either's fine by me
  13. # [00:09] <Hixie> what's the change?
  14. # [00:10] <roc> we need to not instantiate display:none plugins, basically
  15. # [00:10] <roc> no browser does that, and doing it breaks the Web
  16. # [00:10] <Hixie> <embed>, <object>, and <applet>?
  17. # [00:10] <roc> I've only tested <embed>
  18. # [00:11] <roc> there are a details to be worked out
  19. # [00:11] <Hixie> send mail, sounds like it'll need discussion
  20. # [00:11] <Hixie> bug is better for quick things
  21. # [00:11] <roc> OK
  22. # [00:13] <zcorpan> roc: what broke?
  23. # [00:13] <roc> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697651
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  27. # [00:19] <jgraham> Hmm, I thought we had changed some behaviour here recently, but maybe I am wrong
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  29. # [00:20] <roc> Maybe you did, but I tested 11.52
  30. # [00:21] <Hixie> jgraham: in the spec, or opera?
  31. # [00:21] <Hixie> i seem to recall this topic has been discussed before, but off-hand i can't remember what the exact discussion was
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  33. # [00:22] <zcorpan> afaik opera hasn't changed its behavior around display:none plugins
  34. # [00:24] <jgraham> Oh, maybe we didn't change then :) I remember discussion about this case at least
  35. # [00:24] <jgraham> And web-compat concerns
  36. # [00:24] <jgraham> Hixie: In Opera
  37. # [00:25] <jgraham> (so possibly we dropped the ball around reporting a spec bug; if so I apologise)
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  39. # [00:27] <zcorpan> i remember discussing it also, but we didn't have any new information as a basis to file a spec bug, iirc
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  43. # [00:29] <zcorpan> so now we know of one site that breaks
  44. # [00:29] <zcorpan> and it's a google site?
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  46. # [00:42] <roc> yeah
  47. # [00:42] <roc> note though, our patch that makes display:none plugins run hasn't even landed yet
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  50. # [00:43] <roc> this is just something one of our developers found with the patch applied locally
  51. # [00:43] <roc> and given no browsers instantiate display:none plugins right now, I doubt we were lucky enough to find the only broken site
  52. # [00:44] <zcorpan> ah, ok
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  60. # [00:55] <jamesr_> roc, webkit hasn't been capable of instantiating display:none plugins for a very long time
  61. # [00:55] <jamesr_> but i thought firefox was
  62. # [00:55] <roc> no
  63. # [00:55] <roc> we never have
  64. # [00:55] <jamesr_> ah ok. we'll keep not doing it then
  65. # [00:55] <jamesr_> easy enough
  66. # [00:55] <jamesr_> although it feels like a layering violation (style changes plugin loading?). compat > purity
  67. # [00:55] <roc> grrrrrrr my brain can't keep jamesr and jgraham separated
  68. # [00:55] <rillian_> if only they used nicks derived from their names :)
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  71. # [00:57] <roc> jamesr: there is some weirdness, like if you make the element temporarily display:none and flush layout, that doesn't cause the plugin to be reinstantiated (on any browser)
  72. # [00:57] <roc> oh wait
  73. # [00:57] <roc> I didn't actually test that properly
  74. # [00:57] <jamesr_> yeah - if you set a classname on a parent but don't trigger a style recalc, then we won't know it's display:none
  75. # [00:57] <jamesr_> in webkit it depends on exactly how you set things
  76. # [00:58] <jamesr_> i think writing to style.display will immediately kill the plugin
  77. # [00:58] <jamesr_> but would have to test to be sure
  78. # [00:59] <roc> ugh
  79. # [01:00] <jamesr_> because of details of our style resolution process that should never be observable
  80. # [01:00] <roc> temporarily setting display:none and then flushing (and setting display:none back) reinstantiates the plugin in Firefox, Opera and Chrome
  81. # [01:00] <roc> that's deplorable
  82. # [01:00] <roc> that should just be fixed
  83. # [01:03] <roc> in fact just setting style.display to none and setting it back doesn't reinstantiate in Chrome
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  86. # [01:07] <gsnedders> roc: It seems better that when layout is flushed isn't black-box observable from script.
  87. # [01:08] <gsnedders> IMO
  88. # [01:09] <roc> absolutely
  89. # [01:09] <gsnedders> Oh, right.
  90. # [01:09] <gsnedders> I misread what you wrote.
  91. # [01:10] <gsnedders> I missed the "and then flushing". I should go sleep.
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  289. # [08:49] <benschwarz> foolip: !ping
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  303. # [09:25] <kennyluck> What is the easiest way to trigger WebKit encoding mismatch reparsing ?
  304. # [09:25] <kennyluck> (Or does such thing exists?)
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  317. # [10:12] <foolip> benschwarz, !pong
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  341. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> Oh, hmm
  342. # [11:10] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, could you update anolis? Looks like a full stop still gets lost in your version: https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/e4ce1db482f8#chg_dom-core.html_oldline7684
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  345. # [11:17] <phunkei> hello, can someone tell me the markup for a valid (Maybe valid for the next few month) datetime on blogposts?
  346. # [11:19] <phunkei> A few days ago I started using the <time> tag but it seems to be deprecated already
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  348. # [11:25] <divya> phunkei: use spans :)
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  475. # [11:44] <bga_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fhNVQPb5I
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  506. # [12:25] <Ms2ger> <zcorpan> i carefully read every email i receive, several times, then backwards, then in random order following any references
  507. # [12:25] <gsnedders> That guy is *smart*.
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  510. # [12:51] <Ms2ger> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/157
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  512. # [13:04] * gsnedders mumbles something about host objects and getters
  513. # [13:04] <Ms2ger> Can we just for back to .item()?
  514. # [13:04] <Ms2ger> for?
  515. # [13:05] * Ms2ger can't tpye
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  525. # [13:31] <foolip> Mike[tm], http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-iframe-element.html#the-video-element is on the wrong page, can you update the W3C spec splitter to fix?
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  555. # [14:51] <boblet> I can’t see <time> in #obsolete. is that intentional?
  556. # [14:51] <boblet> s/#obsolete/obsolete.html#obsolete/
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  559. # [14:53] <annevk> it was not in a previous HTML iteration
  560. # [14:55] <gsnedders> What's an iteration?
  561. # [14:55] <gsnedders> Like, given the fact WHATWG now publishes a single Living Standard, what justifies something being obsolete?
  562. # [14:55] <boblet> annevk: aah, suspected so. so treated as a <span> equivalent, with @datetime and @pubdate ignored, amirite? Btw, how is this going to work for the Living Standard spec in the future?
  563. # [14:56] <boblet> oh. what he said :)
  564. # [14:56] <annevk> boblet, I suspect it depends on the stability level of the feature
  565. # [14:56] <annevk> boblet, <time> never made it past Last Call or so
  566. # [14:57] <zcorpan> the Living Standard doesn't have Last Calls
  567. # [14:57] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  568. # [14:57] <annevk> zcorpan, its sections do
  569. # [14:57] <boblet> annevk: spec stability rather than browser implementation? hmm, I would have guessed the latter, and was wondering if it was two implementations or something
  570. # [14:58] <boblet> browser uptake reflecting reality etc etc
  571. # [14:58] <annevk> e.g. the Window object is marked as "Implemented and widely deployed"
  572. # [14:58] <annevk> were we to remove it I would expect that to be noted somewhere
  573. # [14:59] <annevk> now not all of these markers are up to date so there's still some room for confusion
  574. # [14:59] <annevk> it's also not all figured out
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  591. # [15:37] <adactio> If <time> is being dropped in favour of a more general <data> element, what is the justification for keeping <nav>, <aside> and <article> ....surely the more general <section> should suffice, by the same logic?
  592. # [15:38] <adactio> (in particular, distinguishing when to use <section> and when to use <article> is something that WHATWGers can't agree on, let alone web developers)
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  594. # [15:39] <digger3> applying similar reasoning to any hierarchy of elements will collapse it to the most general element.
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  596. # [15:39] <digger3> This isn't even too far off proposing that 1984's newspeak was on too something (yes this is a pseudo-Godwin)
  597. # [15:40] <adactio> But in the specific case of sectioning content, why is more than one element needed?
  598. # [15:42] <digger3> adactio: the additional semantic information needs to support a requirement either grounded in markup or automated information extraction. I'm assuming ththat this holds fothe more specific sectioning elements
  599. # [15:43] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  600. # [15:44] <adactio> digger3: then why doesn't that logic apply to <time>? There's the generic <data> (just like <section>) and then the more specific <time> (just like <article> or <aside>). The existence of <data> doesn't negate the need for <time> any more than the existence of <section> negates the need for <aside> (for exactly the parsing reasons you mention).
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  603. # [15:47] <digger3> adactio: that argument is perfectly valid, it was certainly not my intention to contest _that_
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  605. # [15:48] <adactio> Could anyone else explain it to me then? annevk? hsivonen? gsnedders? anyone? bueller?
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  608. # [15:51] <annevk> adactio, I don't really think there's an analogy to be made between structural elements and an element designed to made a concept machine readable
  609. # [15:51] <foolip> adactio, AFAIK <article> and friends were added as convenient styling hooks based on common class values
  610. # [15:51] <foolip> while the purpose of <time> was for use in microformats and such
  611. # [15:51] <foolip> it may be that people are just using it for styling, though
  612. # [15:52] <adactio> annevk: You don't consider part of the reason for the existence of sectioning content is to allow machine parsing? (e.g. skip navigation)
  613. # [15:54] <adactio> To be clear, I'm not arguing against the existence of <data>; I just don't think it negates the need for a more specific <time> element (in the same way that the existence of <section> doesn't mean there's no reason to have a <nav> element.
  614. # [15:54] <adactio> <time> is to <data> as <article>, <nav> and <aside> are to <section>.
  615. # [15:54] <annevk> I just don't think it's quite the same
  616. # [15:55] <annevk> If you need Microdata to make use of <time> then it might as well be <data>
  617. # [15:55] <adactio> annevk: It's not *quite* the same but it is very very similar. Both use cases have semantic (structural) value as well as machine-reading value (and to a much lesser extent, styling).
  618. # [15:56] <annevk> If there are other uses, they should probably be brought up as they have not been considered
  619. # [15:56] <adactio> annevk: But that's the point: you don't need microdata to make use of time because it's *vocabulary* is pre-set (namely ISO 8601)
  620. # [15:56] <foolip> it's not ISO 8601
  621. # [15:56] <adactio> annevk: whereas with <data>, the vocabulary is "fuck knows."
  622. # [15:56] <foolip> it's much more limited
  623. # [15:57] <annevk> adactio, see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13240#c0
  624. # [15:57] <adactio> foolip: a subset of ISO 8601, yes. The point is: it is pre-defined.
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  626. # [15:57] <adactio> annevk: Oh, I've seen it. Believe me, I've seen it. All. Of. It.
  627. # [15:57] <annevk> I mostly used <time> as a replacement for some other construct on my blog, but not sure what the purpose was
  628. # [15:57] <webben> adactio: One of the purposes of the specific sectioning elements is to allow the navigation and reorganisation of content (cf. the ARIA roles to which they are mapped).
  629. # [15:58] <adactio> webben: For that reason, I consider those elements to be machine-readable (as well as conveying semantics) ...just like <time>.
  630. # [15:59] <webben> adactio: Not sure what you're saying.
  631. # [15:59] <webben> adactio: I'm pointing to a reason why making those sectioning semantics machine-readable and part of the core vocabulary is important.
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  633. # [16:01] <adactio> webben: and I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm pointing out that putting some elements (section, article, nav, etc.) into the bucket of "structural" while putting other elements (time) into the bucket of "machine readable" isn't a straightforward division. *All* of those elements are both semantic and machine-readable. It's not a binary thing.
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  635. # [16:02] <webben> "structural" vs. "machine-readable" does not make sense as a distinction, I agree.
  636. # [16:03] <digger3> machine-readable -> machine-interpretable
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  641. # [16:06] <webben> I can imagine <time> having a positive influence on text-to-speech, since tts has traditionally struggled to distinguish numbers from datetimes. The lead time on having important tts agents actually make use of it may be quite long however.
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  657. # [16:25] <zcorpan> woah, why did i not know of http://blekko.com/webgrep before?
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  661. # [16:31] <Ms2ger> Does Opera support strict mode already?
  662. # [16:32] <annevk> I think we implemented ES5
  663. # [16:32] <zcorpan> opera.next does i think
  664. # [16:32] <boblet> so sad I missed this conversation :)
  665. # [16:32] <divya> yes opera.next does
  666. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> Want to tell me what http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1243 logs in .next, then?
  667. # [16:35] <zcorpan> log: wtf
  668. # [16:35] <zcorpan> log: wtf
  669. # [16:35] <zcorpan> log: wtf
  670. # [16:35] <zcorpan> log: wtf
  671. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> That's a bug, then :)
  672. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> But perhaps in WebIDL
  673. # [16:36] * annevk heads to TPAC
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  675. # [16:36] <zcorpan> yeah i think we have some bugs with webidl/dom and strict
  676. # [16:37] <zcorpan> e.g. setting readonly property doesn't throw TypeError iirc
  677. # [16:37] <Ms2ger> \o/
  678. # [16:38] <zcorpan> jgraham probably knows better
  679. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> Poke heycam about it, will you? :)
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  684. # [16:41] <zcorpan> about what?
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  695. # [16:58] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  696. # [16:59] <Ms2ger> Good evening, dglazkov
  697. # [17:00] <divya> good nite dglazkov!
  698. # [17:01] <dglazkov> hello timezone-impaired people! :P
  699. # [17:02] <divya> :))
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  711. # [17:15] <_bga> morning is not time, its state of soul
  712. # [17:15] <_bga> :)
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  714. # [17:15] <divya> my soul is dark and stormy then
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  718. # [17:19] <dglazkov> _bga++
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  722. # [17:20] <dglazkov> and OMG does Mountain View have great mornings or what
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  724. # [17:21] <divya> dglazkov: wai u no tpac?
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  726. # [17:21] <gsnedders> dglazkov: Dunno. Can you get me plane tickets?
  727. # [17:22] <dglazkov> divya: they are doing plenareeey things in the morning. I am trying to catch up on emails and #whatwg trolling
  728. # [17:22] <divya> sgtm
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  730. # [17:22] <dglazkov> gsnedders: only if it's a paper plane
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  733. # [17:23] <gsnedders> dglazkov: hmm, might not be great over the Atlantic
  734. # [17:23] <dglazkov> gsnedders: :)
  735. # [17:23] <rniwa> dglazkov: or land patches :D
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  737. # [17:23] <zcorpan> anyone know of a good reason why <data value> shouldn't be <global itemvalue>?
  738. # [17:24] <dglazkov> rniwa: :)
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  744. # [17:29] <foolip> zcorpan, don't you already know?
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  746. # [17:30] <divya> zcorpan: you should check the 100,000 messages on the mailing list because it will surely contain an answer to that question
  747. # [17:31] <foolip> zcorpan, worst case scenario would be <time datetime="" itemvalue=""> where the itemValue reflection can be 3 different things
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  749. # [17:33] <zcorpan> divya: pointer?
  750. # [17:33] <divya> zcorpan: i was snarking :P
  751. # [17:34] <divya> its what is the default recommendation :PPP
  752. # [17:34] <divya> (also how broak it is that you need to search mailing list for rationale :/ )
  753. # [17:34] <zcorpan> foolip: yeah, that's true. could disallow it for elements that don't reflect to their textContent by default, maybe
  754. # [17:34] <foolip> zcorpan, disallow it, of course, but how should it be implemented?
  755. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> divya, there's a wiki page you can add to :)
  756. # [17:35] <divya> Ms2ger: o? where?
  757. # [17:35] <divya> that whatwg wiki?
  758. # [17:35] <zcorpan> foolip: ignore itemvalue?
  759. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> Yep
  760. # [17:35] <gsnedders> divya: Running svn blame on the spec, seeing if there's a bug mentioned in commit message when text you're interested in changed, or searching mailing lists for emails from Hixie around then tends to work
  761. # [17:35] <foolip> zcorpan, in other words, add it in the otherwise clause of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#dom-itemvalue ?
  762. # [17:36] <zcorpan> gotta go. next stop: örebro c
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  764. # [17:37] <divya> gsnedders: :'( its so tedious
  765. # [17:38] <foolip> divya, what change do you want to know about?
  766. # [17:39] <foolip> if it's just that svn is slow, I maintain https://gitorious.org/whatwg/webapps pretty much only for this purpose
  767. # [17:39] <divya> foolip: nothing just generally complaining how it takes a while to figure out why a certain feature exists in the form it does.
  768. # [17:39] * divya should shut up now
  769. # [17:39] <foolip> that it does
  770. # [17:39] <divya> foolip: ooo i did not know about that gitorious!
  771. # [17:40] <divya> omg amazing
  772. # [17:40] <divya> at least its not too bad
  773. # [17:40] <foolip> sometimes it's possible to git bisect your way to the right commit, sometimes not
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  796. # [18:02] <boblet> this may be of interest to some of you: http://html5doctor.com/time-and-data-element/
  797. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, how do I do that again? It's been so long that I've forgotten.
  798. # [18:02] <boblet> although possibly not by now :)
  799. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> hg pull -u in your source folder
  800. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> and sudo python setup.py install, IIRC
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  802. # [18:04] <AryehGregor> Printed out a bunch of stuff that doesn't look like errors.
  803. # [18:04] <AryehGregor> I guess we'll see if it works.
  804. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> Heh
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  810. # [18:10] <digger3> boblet: excellent story and considerations
  811. # [18:11] <boblet> digger3: thank you. it’s all due to annevk5 and foolip’s excellent feedback :)
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  823. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: did anybody get back to you about the room yet?
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  866. # [19:33] <dglazkov> Mike[tm]: yus
  867. # [19:34] <dglazkov> In addition, I managed to misplace, panic about it, and recover the key to the room in about 10 minutes.
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  869. # [19:35] <dglazkov> excellent fodder for your next nightmare
  870. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> heh
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  877. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> abarth: I just switched on your commit perms for http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/content-security-policy
  878. # [19:43] <abarth> thanks!
  879. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> please try it and make sure it works
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  881. # [19:47] <abarth> abort: authorization failed
  882. # [19:47] <abarth> maybe i have the wrong password
  883. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> abarth: it should be the same username and password as your W3C web login
  884. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> we use the same ldap db for both
  885. # [19:48] <abarth> success!
  886. # [19:48] <abarth> thanks
  887. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> cheers
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  909. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Oh, look
  910. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> testharness.js' logging in broken in XHTML documents
  911. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Guess why
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  916. # [20:28] <bhearsum> does HTML5 support 'put', 'delete', and other methods on forms? if so, which browsers have support for it?
  917. # [20:28] <bhearsum> hmm, i can probably test this myself
  918. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Hi bhearsum
  919. # [20:29] <bhearsum> hi Ms2ger :)
  920. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> HTML supported it for a while, IIRC, but it was removed for lack of use cases
  921. # [20:30] <bhearsum> doesn't look like HTML5 supports it, either, based on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#the-form-element and it not validating with http://html5.validator.nu/
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  927. # [20:38] <Hixie> so which room are people in at tpac?
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  938. # [21:02] <hober> component model at 1:30 in room 1234
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  944. # [21:19] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: that may be the cause of some problem I had with running the DOM4 test suite
  945. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> That's where it hit me
  946. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> All the xhtml tests time out
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  967. # [21:36] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Oh. I thought I fixed that for the SVG folks
  968. # [21:36] <jgraham> But I guess AryehGregor broke it again
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  970. # [21:36] <jgraham> Should add a TC
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  982. # [21:55] <annevk> so if you set <textarea>'s raw value to \r\n you get \r\r\n?
  983. # [21:56] <annevk> on submission
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  996. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> jgraham, does the test harness itself have a test suite to detect breakage, that I should run to check that any changes of mine are correct?
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  1000. # [22:20] <jgraham> AryehGregor: The apisample files
  1001. # [22:20] <jgraham> I think there is one bug there at the moment
  1002. # [22:20] * AryehGregor notes for the future
  1003. # [22:20] <jgraham> (they don't all say "PASS", you have to read the description)
  1004. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> jgraham, you should make a README or HACKING file or something with instructions on how to write patches/test they're correct/get review/etc.
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  1006. # [22:31] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Good idea
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  1054. # [23:37] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@63-145-238-4.dia.static.qwest.net) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  1055. # [23:37] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
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  1060. # [23:45] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
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  1064. # [23:53] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  1065. # [23:53] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
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  1068. # [23:57] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GGZYYYKMDCCCXLVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  1069. # Session Close: Thu Nov 03 00:00:01 2011

The end :)