/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 04 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: astearns (~anonymous@63-145-238-4.dia.static.qwest.net)
  4. # [00:01] <jarek> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/
  5. # [00:01] <jarek> there is not much work going in SVG space
  6. # [00:01] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  7. # [00:02] <heycam> jarek, a bunch of those have basically moved to be joint CSS/SVG specs
  8. # [00:03] <jarek> hendry: is there anything besides https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/publish/Filters.html ?
  9. # [00:03] <jarek> s/hendry/heycam
  10. # [00:03] <heycam> jarek, maybe? :) would have to look
  11. # [00:03] * heycam must afk
  12. # [00:03] <annevk> jgraham: I'm trying to pull a jgraham :p
  13. # [00:04] <heycam> the transforms stuff at least, though
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  16. # [00:05] <annevk> rules for pronouncing Ms2ger in meetings: "miss-two-ger" (roughly)
  17. # [00:06] <jgraham> Make him sound like a girl?
  18. # [00:07] <bga_> microsoft2 german
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  20. # [00:07] <hober> post-tpac in-n-out run tonight anyone?
  21. # [00:07] <annevk> ooh
  22. # [00:07] * annevk had pancakes for breakfast and too much coke
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  24. # [00:07] * jgraham proposes we call him "Missy Too-ger"
  25. # [00:08] <annevk> (as in cola)
  26. # [00:08] <annevk> hober: is there more "healthy" food in SC?
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  38. # [00:15] <TabAtkin1_> hober: Apparently I'm not allowed to do dinner an in-n-out tonight. >_<
  39. # [00:15] <TabAtkin1_> (According to Shane, who is apparently MY MOM NOW GEEZ.)
  40. # [00:16] <jgraham> It's that the role your wife is supposed to take?
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  42. # [00:17] <annevk> SAD TabAtkin1_ IS SAD
  43. # [00:17] <jgraham> *Isn't that
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  45. # [00:17] <annevk> also, what is there to do 2AM Sunday and why was I not told?
  46. # [00:17] <Hixie> tantek_: (from #htmlwg) Google does; but if you just search for [mv] we currently seem to assume that you mean the unix command or other things actually called "mv". Try searching for "la fiesta, mv" and notice that "Mountain View" is boldend (i.e. matched) in the result
  47. # [00:18] <franksalim> hober: I would try to crash that. I could use another burger
  48. # [00:18] <tantek_> Hixie, maps doesn't seem to recognize it
  49. # [00:18] <tantek_> last I checked (a few weeks ago?)
  50. # [00:18] <tantek_> MV = Mountain View that is
  51. # [00:18] <tantek_> I think it put it in Missouri or something
  52. # [00:18] <Hixie> yeah, weird
  53. # [00:18] <tantek_> search engine heuristics are pretty flakey
  54. # [00:18] <annevk> Google services are often inconsistent
  55. # [00:19] <tantek_> often good, but yeah
  56. # [00:19] <annevk> e.g. G+ was awful when it came to "WHATWG"
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  59. # [00:20] <jgraham> Well it's a common problem. Heuristics are flakey but work everywhere; specific markup can still be flakey but might be less so on average, but only works when people specifically add extra stuff
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  70. # [00:29] <TabAtkin1_> annevk: 2am on Sunday is the DST switch in the US.
  71. # [00:30] <annevk> cunning
  72. # [00:30] <TabAtkin1_> Also: we're done today in SVG. Is it worthwhile to attend HTML?
  73. # [00:30] <annevk> sort of status update session
  74. # [00:30] <TabAtkin1_> That sounds not very interesting.
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  78. # [00:35] <ojan> random question...anyone know the history behind percentage sizes in standards mode? specifically, in quirks mode, to resolve a percentage, you walk up the tree until you hit the first non-auto, non-percentage valu (roughly)...for standards mode, if you hit an auto value you bail.
  79. # [00:35] <ojan> this behavior seems totally wrong to me and i'm wondering how the decision got made
  80. # [00:35] <ojan> so i can propose a fix for the future
  81. # [00:36] <ojan> i figure dbaron or sicking might know?
  82. # [00:36] <tantek_> ojan - is that a CSS question?
  83. # [00:36] <ojan> yeah...i guess i should get on some other irc channel
  84. # [00:36] <annevk> hixie resolved 80% of 1550 bugs since we had the HTML5 Last Call
  85. # [00:37] <tantek_> might have better luck on irc://irc.w3.org:6665/css
  86. # [00:37] <annevk> that's about 200 bugs per month
  87. # [00:37] <tantek_> especially this week
  88. # [00:37] <ojan> tantek_: thx.
  89. # [00:37] <annevk> and it excludes emails and other specs
  90. # [00:37] * annevk amazed
  91. # [00:38] <ojan> that's pretty crazy
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  93. # [00:38] <tantek_> ojan, I used to have the answer to your question in my head (CSS 2.1 details and reasoning for all compat/strict switches etc.), but unfortunately haven't used that info in code in ~10 years, sorry.
  94. # [00:39] <ojan> tantek_: yeah, i figure this decision was made a lloooong time ago
  95. # [00:41] * smaug____ clearly needs to file some more HTML bugs so that Hixie has something to do
  96. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> ojan, FWIW, I've run into this behavior in practice, and it was really confusing.
  97. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> I assume it's impossible to change now, though.
  98. # [00:44] <roc> ojan: which behavior seems wrong?
  99. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> I'd guess it has to do with the fact that in some cases, the width of an auto element depends on its contents.
  100. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> E.g., a floated div with width: auto will be as wide as its contents, so trying to set contents' width relative to it is obviously going to be bad.
  101. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> But there are people here who are much more expert in CSS than me, so why am I talking?
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  103. # [00:46] <ojan> roc: the standards behavior
  104. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> (the cases where it's confusing are where "auto" translates to "100%", which IIRC is the case for blocks in normal flow with no margin or padding, so you have to add a magic width: 100% which doesn't actually do anything noticeable)
  105. # [00:46] <ojan> roc: it's clearly not what people want/expect
  106. # [00:46] <ojan> roc: the way you get the behavior you want these days is to have to put height 100% on every ancestor including the html element
  107. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's extremely confusing.
  108. # [00:46] <ojan> roc: then when you change your structure a little, you have to remember to put height 100% on any new elements you add
  109. # [00:47] <roc> yeah, sounds reasonable, but I doubt we can change the standards-mode behavior without hitting compat issues
  110. # [00:47] <ojan> AryehGregor: the thing that bugs me is that the quirks behavior does it right, so it's clearly solvable
  111. # [00:47] <ojan> roc: yeah, we'd have to add a new unit
  112. # [00:47] <ojan> roc: which sucks...but it's better than the status quo imo
  113. # [00:47] <roc> maybe there are better features for the use-cases
  114. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> There'd be no graceful fallback for a new unit, so it would be useless for ages.
  115. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> Although the same is true for any solution here, I guess.
  116. # [00:48] <roc> a lot of uses for percentage height blocks are covered by flexbox for example
  117. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> Really, the same is true for any feature that merely lets you do an existing thing more easily.
  118. # [00:49] <ojan> roc: the problem is that a lot of times the flexbox is in a perctnage container
  119. # [00:49] <ojan> roc: e.g. if you want the flexbox to fill the whole viewport
  120. # [00:49] <ojan> roc: i guess the new viewport units address that specific use-case
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  122. # [00:50] <ojan> roc, AryehGregor: what people actually do in practice is make the element positioned and give it top/left/right/bottom=0
  123. # [00:50] <ojan> but most people don't think to do that
  124. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  125. # [00:51] <ojan> so they either learn to put percentages up the whole tree, or they hard code using javascript
  126. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> That only works for fixed width.
  127. # [00:51] <ojan> it's a case of people doing the latter that got me worked up enought to try to address it
  128. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> The use-case is just making a column that's the height of the whole page?
  129. # [00:51] <ojan> AryehGregor: not necessarily the whole page...
  130. # [00:51] <ojan> AryehGregor: image in a dialog where you want the contents to fill the dialog
  131. # [00:52] <ojan> AryehGregor: the dialog is fixed height
  132. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> If the dialog is fixed height, then the problem is only if you have a wrapper intervening between the dialog and its height: 100% contents?
  133. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> Which has height: auto?
  134. # [00:52] <ojan> AryehGregor: which is the common case
  135. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> Right, makes sense.
  136. # [00:52] <ojan> AryehGregor: or...a common case anyways
  137. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> The current behavior is indeed pathological.
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  139. # [00:53] <AryehGregor> Although you do have to bail out in some cases. <div style=float:right><div style=width:100%>foo</div></div> can't do anything sensible except ignore the width property.
  140. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> Unless it makes the parent div width:100% despite being floated, which would be weird.
  141. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> Although perhaps not entirely unexpected.
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  143. # [00:56] <ojan> AryehGregor: yes, there are cases you need to bail...but the common case of auto-sizing shoudl not be one of them
  144. # [00:56] <ojan> a coworker had an interesting idea of an altnerative to a new unit
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  146. # [00:56] <ojan> we could add a new property a la box-sizing
  147. # [00:56] <ojan> ok...i'll stop littering whatwg with css discussion...
  148. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I thought of that too, but a new unit makes more sense here.
  149. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> It's more predictable.
  150. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> It won't change random the meaning of random other rules.
  151. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> (#whatwg is fine for CSS discussion)
  152. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> (although not for making actual decisions, of course)
  153. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> s/random//
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  169. # [01:20] <roc> ojan: I think a lot of Web apps really want flexbox all the way down
  170. # [01:22] <ojan> roc: yeah, maybe
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  266. # [07:15] <zcorpan> hmm, hasn't browsers implemented appcache completely already? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14364
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  315. # [11:06] <FlorianX> hi, i've got one question: Web Messaging works only with iFrames? because for channel/cross document messages i need to call otherWindow.post(...) -> but how can i call this on an other browser tab/window?
  316. # [11:09] <zcorpan> you might be able to use a shared worker
  317. # [11:09] <bga_> you can cross tab messaging via onstarage event
  318. # [11:10] <FlorianX> bga_: but i musst call postMessage(..) on otherWindow -> how could i get the tab?
  319. # [11:10] <FlorianX> zcorpan: yeah worker communication uses postMessage too.
  320. # [11:11] <bga_> FlorianX let api allow you get ref to other your tab. now you can do otherTab.document = null. welcome to XSS crazy world
  321. # [11:12] <zcorpan> .document is not overridable :)
  322. # [11:12] <FlorianX> bga_: is there a function to get a window or a tab. because everywhere stands tab/ window but the examples use only iframe...
  323. # [11:14] <FlorianX> the iframe i get with document.getElement... the worker was created in the js so i have a ref... but how get i a ref to a new window or a tab :-)
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  325. # [11:17] <bga_> FlorianX ok you can create dispatcher - shared worker. assign id to each tab, allow send msg to other tab, enumarate ids, allow rpc to exec arbitrary code in other tab etc
  326. # [11:18] <FlorianX> ok
  327. # [11:19] <FlorianX> so the next question is, is channel messaging only a specialized cross document messaging "only" with ports?
  328. # [11:21] <bga_> FlorianX btw you can do more :). cross window messaging in different browsers via Flash and SharedStoarge %)
  329. # [11:21] <FlorianX> with the chanels?
  330. # [11:22] <bga_> if you implement
  331. # [11:24] <FlorianX> new i've got the same question before :-D how could i get a ref to the other browser because i musst call in every case newBrowser.postMessage(...)
  332. # [11:24] <FlorianX> *now
  333. # [11:25] <zcorpan> FlorianX: you connect to a shared worker and it creates a message channel between the two, sends the ports back, and then the pages can communicate through the channel
  334. # [11:25] <bga_> ref to browser sounds crazy and useless
  335. # [11:25] <zcorpan> FlorianX: no need to have a ref to the window
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  337. # [11:28] <FlorianX> zcorpan: nice. thanks
  338. # [11:29] <bga_> zcorpan btw when p2p api will land in html5?
  339. # [11:29] <FlorianX> bga_: yeah useless, but importent to know :-D
  340. # [11:30] <zcorpan> bga_: it's already in the spec
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  342. # [11:31] <bga_> FlorianX you dont need to know in which browser given window. homogenious space
  343. # [11:32] <bga_> of cource you can do someWindow._rpc('navigator.userAgent', fn(ret){ })
  344. # [11:34] <bga_> zcorpan url?
  345. # [11:36] <bga_> can not google spec
  346. # [11:36] <bga_> sorry
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  348. # [11:37] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video-conferencing-and-peer-to-peer-communication.html#video-conferencing-and-peer-to-peer-communication
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  353. # [11:43] <bga_> nice. now i can make html5 bittorrent client :)
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  359. # [11:51] <FlorianX> i'm still trying to understand the differences between the channel and cross-document messaging... in channel there is a direct communication channel, so many pieces of code could communicate with their pendats... in cross the hole document reacts to a message? is this the difference? *in simple words* :-D
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  368. # [12:00] <zcorpan> FlorianX: with a channel you have two ports. the ports can be sent around.
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  395. # [13:44] <sgentle> hi there
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  398. # [13:45] <sgentle> I'm doing some stuff with templating and I wanted to check something… in general, should I expect user agents to modify the dom for shits and giggles when it's first rendered?
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  400. # [13:48] <sgentle> for example, if I have an xpath that points to a certain element using a standard no-funny-business HTML parser, should I expect it to point to that element in the browser also? in all browsers?
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  402. # [13:49] <Philip`> Is a "no-funny-business HTML parser" something like html5lib or the validator.nu HTML5 parser?
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  404. # [13:50] <Philip`> If so, modern browsers will produce precisely the same DOM, if the page doesn't contain any scripts that use document.write or that modify the DOM explicitly
  405. # [13:52] <Philip`> (Most pre-HTML5 non-browser HTML parsers and older browsers will differ in the namespacing of elements, and in various minor details)
  406. # [13:52] <sgentle> yeah, my definition of no-funny-business includes the relatively well specified funny business in the spec :o)
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  408. # [13:52] <annevk> I might be able to get used to this 5AM thing
  409. # [13:52] <sgentle> (which is to say, that doesn't count as funny business… geez, negatives are confusing)
  410. # [13:53] <sgentle> what do you mean by namespacing?
  411. # [13:54] <Philip`> The HTML5 parser puts HTML elements into the HTML namespace
  412. # [13:54] <Philip`> Most pre-HTML5 parsers put the elements in no namespace
  413. # [13:54] <annevk> "<table>test" moves things around
  414. # [13:54] <annevk> there's various other algorithms that modify the DOM
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  416. # [13:55] <annevk> you only hit such cases for documents that are non-conforming
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  418. # [13:56] <Philip`> That's well specified funny business so it'll be the same between browsers and non-browser parsers (html5lib etc) though
  419. # [13:56] * Philip` is assuming that's roughly what sgentle means
  420. # [13:57] <sgentle> yeah
  421. # [13:57] * 64MAA1C8T is now known as drublic
  422. # [13:57] <sgentle> basically I'm trying to do something clever where I parse some html for the locations of template markers to make selectors to those elements
  423. # [13:58] <Philip`> Scripts break everything, of course
  424. # [13:58] <sgentle> of course :)
  425. # [14:00] <Philip`> (Also, non-browser parsers might not implement the spec correctly, because e.g. their DOM-or-similar-tree implementation can't represent all possible DOMs, or because they're trying to be streaming etc)
  426. # [14:00] <sgentle> so my main concern is just whether I'm going to parse the html, say "aha! this template renders to /body/table/tr[3]/td[2]" and then have that not match up to the actual DOM
  427. # [14:01] <zcorpan> it wouldn't match anything with a conforming parser :)
  428. # [14:01] <Philip`> If there are no problematic scripts in the HTML, and if everyone implements HTML5 correctly (which isn't quite true depending on your scope), that should work fine :-)
  429. # [14:01] <sgentle> it'd be swell if I could somehow hook into the browser's parser, but, y'know… you ask three browsers for an implementation and you get four implementations
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  431. # [14:02] <zcorpan> (there would be a tbody element)
  432. # [14:02] <sgentle> :o
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  435. # [14:02] <sgentle> I imagine that forgetting tbody is the sort of thing that might get you run out of #whatwg on a rail
  436. # [14:03] * Joins: asmodai (asmodai@178-85-121-247.dynamic.upc.nl)
  437. # [14:03] <sgentle> so, uh… I hesitate to ask this
  438. # [14:03] <sgentle> but how badly is that not true for older browsers?
  439. # [14:03] <annevk> <tbody> has been done for a *long* time
  440. # [14:03] * Philip` doesn't remember any browser in which it's not true
  441. # [14:03] <annevk> use http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ to figure out what browsers do
  442. # [14:03] <zcorpan> old browsers insert tbody too. i think netscape 4 or something might fail to do it
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  445. # [14:05] <sgentle> sorry, not tbody, I mean in general, the expectation that I can parse HTML and get a DOM that matches the DOM in the browser
  446. # [14:06] <Philip`> Before HTML5, every browser browser gave a different DOM, and every non-browser HTML parser gave different ones again
  447. # [14:06] * linclark|brb is now known as linclark
  448. # [14:06] <sgentle> oh good :)
  449. # [14:06] <Philip`> s/browser//
  450. # [14:07] <sgentle> I was worried for a second this was going to be a massive pain in the ass
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  452. # [14:07] <Philip`> There's probably some small subset of HTML that'd be sufficiently compatible for your goals, but I don't think anyone has attempted to define that subset
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  454. # [14:08] <sgentle> or maybe some sufficiently complicated way of selecting an element
  455. # [14:08] <Philip`> so the sanity-preserving course is probably to only expect to support browsers with HTML5 parsers
  456. # [14:08] * Philip` has no idea which browser versions that would be, though
  457. # [14:09] <Philip`> The easy way to select an element is to modify the source and add an id attribute
  458. # [14:09] * Quits: Evanescence (~Evanescen@122.237.35.100) (Client Quit)
  459. # [14:09] <sgentle> yeah, I was thinking about that
  460. # [14:09] <sgentle> although adding an id to everything feels a little gross
  461. # [14:10] <sgentle> (not to mention, ironic that to solve the problem of the DOM being modified in arbitrary ways I modify the DOM in an arbitrary way)
  462. # [14:10] <sgentle> but that might be the only sane option
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  464. # [14:11] <sgentle> whoa… although
  465. # [14:11] <zcorpan> http://caniuse.com/#search=parser gives an idea (although ie9 doesn't use an html5 parser)
  466. # [14:11] <sgentle> maybe I could render the html again using an iframe
  467. # [14:11] <sgentle> with ids
  468. # [14:12] <sgentle> and then use those ids to construct xpaths or some other generic selector based on the structure of the DOM
  469. # [14:12] <sgentle> then use that selector to get elements in the original document
  470. # [14:12] <sgentle> …and since those both happen within the browser, the quirks would be the same (probably)
  471. # [14:13] <sgentle> I'd obviously have to nuke script tags somehow to stop them being run, but other than that...
  472. # [14:19] <sgentle> or even something like document.createElement('html').innerHTML = templateWithIds
  473. # [14:20] <sgentle> is that too crazy to work?
  474. # [14:21] <Philip`> "too crazy" depends on what you're trying to achieve, and whether there's less crazy ways to do it
  475. # [14:21] <Philip`> (What are you trying to achieve?)
  476. # [14:23] <sgentle> well, in a larger sense I'm trying to do live templating - that is, you can use a template + data to generate HTML, change the data and have the HTML change
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  479. # [14:26] <sgentle> as an arbitrary design goal (if I can get away with it), I'd like to not do a jquery-ui style "you use my library? a thousand CSS classes descend upon you!"
  480. # [14:27] <sgentle> and instead preserve the template property that what you get out is basically what you put in
  481. # [14:28] <sgentle> the only missing piece is that I need a way to access the templated elements after the page has loaded
  482. # [14:28] <sgentle> (which is why I'm asking so many strange questions about selectors)
  483. # [14:33] <Smylers> TabAtkins: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0012.html is hilarious. Thank you!
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  496. # [15:00] <Ms2ger> annevk, any interesting discussions about me?
  497. # [15:01] <annevk> you were thanked for working on tests and someone asked how to pronounce your name
  498. # [15:01] <annevk> I think that was about it
  499. # [15:02] <annevk> Glenn Adams is notoriously absent
  500. # [15:03] <Ms2ger> Hah
  501. # [15:05] <annevk> hixie had some idea on how to define mutation observers in the DOM btw while not depending on HTML
  502. # [15:05] <hsivonen> oh so the masked person at TPAC wasn't Ms2ger after all?
  503. # [15:05] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, ...perhaps?
  504. # [15:05] <annevk> we basically just "queue" the stuff and HTML dispatches it or some such
  505. # [15:06] <annevk> hsivonen: I think only tantek walked around with a mask on halloween
  506. # [15:06] <tantek> >:->
  507. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> I see
  508. # [15:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: oh and sicking wants us to add EventTarget.on.event.add(...) and within those new type of listeners events would always bubble
  509. # [15:06] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. I meant the photo Sylvain tweeted
  510. # [15:06] * Joins: asmodai (asmodai@178-85-121-247.dynamic.upc.nl)
  511. # [15:07] <annevk> yeah that was tantek :)
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  513. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> If sicking can get smaug to implement it, sound great to me :)
  514. # [15:09] <annevk> and I think pretty much everyone wants node.remove/prepend/etc. though what they should take as argument...
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  539. # [15:58] <annevk> Ms2ger: should also file a bug on HTML for contextless parsing
  540. # [15:58] <annevk> Ms2ger: requires a new insertion mode afaict
  541. # [16:00] <Ms2ger> Either that or use <body> like for the other apis
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  547. # [16:00] <annevk> Ms2ger: using <body> is not acceptable for e.g. jQuery and copy & paste so if we do that we might as well not do it
  548. # [16:00] <annevk> Ms2ger: you want to be able to create a fragment of several rows a in table for instance
  549. # [16:00] * Ms2ger will read the thread later
  550. # [16:01] <annevk> k
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  581. # [16:58] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  583. # [17:02] <heycam> dglazkov, is it ok if your components presentation to us is bumped half an hour later to 12:30pm?
  584. # [17:03] <heycam> dglazkov, sorry, I mean to 2:30pm. (we originally said 2pm.)
  585. # [17:05] <annevk> at some point I should stop explaining why URL processing should be uniform and move to the next level
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  588. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> annevk, sniffing?
  589. # [17:08] <heycam> whoever sniffed it dealt it
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  591. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> heycam, I understand tpac has come to an interesting level?
  592. # [17:09] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B3268E8.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  593. # [17:09] <heycam> I don't know anything about levels, man
  594. # [17:09] * heycam brb chairing
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  597. # [17:11] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  598. # [17:12] * Joins: richt (~richt@63-145-238-4.dia.static.qwest.net)
  599. # [17:12] <dglazkov> heycam: sure. Am I presenting anything? I thought you guys just wanted to pick my brain on shadow doom
  600. # [17:13] * Ms2ger tries not to picture that
  601. # [17:14] <annevk> hober said the other day he needs to be sniffed
  602. # [17:14] * annevk found that somewhat disturbing
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  604. # [17:15] <dglazkov> I sniffed hober. He's okay
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  608. # [17:18] <hober> I don't know what to say.
  609. # [17:19] <dglazkov> :)
  610. # [17:19] <zewt> seriously, rhyming is not the way
  611. # [17:19] <hober> Anybody want a peanut?
  612. # [17:20] <zewt> you can't quote the end of that scene, there's nowhere to go with it
  613. # [17:22] * Ms2ger arrests zewt for violating the "Getting-Out-of-Sketches-Without-Using-a-Proper-Punch-Line Act"
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  615. # [17:23] <dglazkov> ah yes, the good old GOOSWUPPLA act.
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  618. # [17:26] * jgraham votes we send annevk to the motivational speaker session
  619. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> What did he do to you now?
  620. # [17:26] * annevk slaps jgraham around with a largish wet trout
  621. # [17:27] * karlcow supports jgraham in his proposal. Annevk definitely would benefit of it
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  623. # [17:27] * annevk does a 180 with his trout
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  625. # [17:29] * Ms2ger opens a trout shop
  626. # [17:29] <jgraham> Raise the praise, mionimize the criticize, man
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  629. # [17:30] <jgraham> Oh, tht did post
  630. # [17:30] <jgraham> Silly spoty connection
  631. # [17:30] <jgraham> *spotty
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  634. # [17:31] <Ms2ger`> Let's criticize the IETF
  635. # [17:31] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@63-145-238-4.dia.static.qwest.net)
  636. # [17:31] <Ms2ger`> Or shepazu, of course :)
  637. # [17:31] <annevk> Unicode!
  638. # [17:31] <jgraham> The words fish and barrel come to mind
  639. # [17:31] <annevk> <canvas>!
  640. # [17:33] <heycam> dglazkov, sure, no need to present! just be present :)
  641. # [17:34] <dglazkov> I'll be a present.
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  646. # [17:40] <zewt> "the optional encoding string parameter MUST be a name or an alias of a character set used on the Internet [IANACHARSET], or else is considered invalid" is that "MUST" strange?
  647. # [17:40] <dglazkov> wait, there's a vibrator spec?
  648. # [17:41] <dglazkov> oh, it's for the phones. nevermind.
  649. # [17:41] <zewt> seems odd to place a normative requirement on parameters, instead of just saying "if it's valid, do this, otherwise do this"
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  651. # [17:43] * jgraham notes that the problem with longdesc in browsers is that we don't have any interest in exposing mostly-junk data to users
  652. # [17:43] <Philip`> You expose the content of web pages to users, and most of those are junk
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  654. # [17:45] <karlcow> specifically ads ;)
  655. # [17:45] <jgraham> Philip`: coming from you , I expect data to back up that statement :p
  656. # [17:46] <karlcow> I wonder about the proportion of img used for ads and used for no-ads
  657. # [17:46] <annevk> users are junks?
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  659. # [17:46] <karlcow> junkies
  660. # [17:46] <karlcow> [09:38] * karl has the feeling the longdesc looks like a footnote, annotation mechanism. a reference to another piece of text information.
  661. # [17:47] <karlcow> in fact I could see longdesc used in other contexts.
  662. # [17:47] <Philip`> jgraham: Most assertions made on IRC are junk too, of course
  663. # [17:47] <karlcow> with a combination of xmlhttprequest to bring the text in a possible tooltip, ui, something
  664. # [17:49] <annevk> if you use XMLHttpRequest you should use data-*
  665. # [17:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: The proper view-source highlghting sounds very cool
  666. # [17:50] <karlcow> annevk: would it be an issue with the lack of rich semantics
  667. # [17:50] <karlcow> it is usually not text only
  668. # [17:50] <karlcow> it is an html file
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  671. # [18:00] <annevk> HTML WG inner circle is discussing longdesc
  672. # [18:00] <annevk> nobody else has anything to say, yet it takes ages
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  676. # [18:01] * annevk is getting allergic to hearing "change proposal"
  677. # [18:02] <Ms2ger``> Only just now?
  678. # [18:02] * Ms2ger`` is now known as Ms2ger
  679. # [18:02] <annevk> so far I mostly saw it in writing
  680. # [18:02] <Philip`> How do people pronounce "a11y" in real life?
  681. # [18:03] <zewt> "accessibility" :)
  682. # [18:03] <annevk> I think I heard a-11
  683. # [18:04] <zewt> it's an ironically unaccessible abbreviation
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  685. # [18:04] <zewt> how do you translate "l10n"?
  686. # [18:04] <Philip`> "lion"
  687. # [18:04] * karlcow is not a big fan of hgroup… or more exactly never really had to use it
  688. # [18:04] <annevk> there's no irony in standards
  689. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> Only sarcasm
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  691. # [18:04] <karlcow> L-tee-N
  692. # [18:04] <zewt> i said translate :P
  693. # [18:05] <annevk> trololol
  694. # [18:05] <zewt> how do you localize the abbreviation for localization
  695. # [18:05] <Philip`> Oh, like into non-English languages?
  696. # [18:05] * Philip` forgot such languages existed
  697. # [18:05] <karlcow> hmm
  698. # [18:06] <Hixie> is tantek around?
  699. # [18:06] <karlcow> L-dix-N doesn't sound that good in French
  700. # [18:06] <dglazkov> a10n
  701. # [18:06] <karlcow> a2l
  702. # [18:07] <dglazkov> w1f
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  710. # [18:23] <jgraham> We totally need a HTMLWG drinking game based around the words "Change Proposal" and "Call for Consensus"
  711. # [18:24] <annevk> you want double headaches?
  712. # [18:24] <smaug____> :)
  713. # [18:25] * smaug____ thinks or hopes he has made the right choice to not care about HTML WG at all.
  714. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> AFAICT, technical work doesn't occur on the public-html list as a rule, only on the whatwg list or Bugzilla.
  715. # [18:26] * Joins: mpt (mpt@canonical/mpt)
  716. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Bugzilla is courtesy of the HTMLWG, though.
  717. # [18:26] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@63-145-238-4.dia.static.qwest.net)
  718. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> That's certainly worth caring about.
  719. # [18:27] * tantek feels obligated to mention http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces
  720. # [18:28] <smaug____> I do file some html spec bugs
  721. # [18:28] <smaug____> but I don't refer to HTML5 spec, but whatwg html spec
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  728. # [18:39] <gsnedders> jgraham: Why is it always people who don't drink who start drinking games?
  729. # [18:39] <Hixie> tantek: see /msg
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  731. # [18:39] <smaug____> Hixie: a bit difficult to read that diff without enough context... so click-in-progress is set whenever user clicks an element?
  732. # [18:40] <Hixie> the patch isn't quite complete yet
  733. # [18:40] <Hixie> but basically it'll be fired for anything that is click(), the click caused by hitting enter, and the click caused by clicking
  734. # [18:40] <Hixie> and it'll be unset after the activation behaviorus are done
  735. # [18:40] <smaug____> ok, sounds good
  736. # [18:40] <jgraham> MikeSm
  737. # [18:41] * smaug____ updates the patch for gecko
  738. # [18:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith drinks from the poisoned chalice
  739. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> heh
  740. # [18:42] <hober> you're a good man, MikeSmith
  741. # [18:42] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@63-145-238-4.dia.static.qwest.net) (Quit: tantek)
  742. # [18:42] <hober> though i don't understand why this would be an html wg deliverable
  743. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> hot potato
  744. # [18:43] <hober> it's almost like we need a wg that defines how urls work across the platform
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  746. # [18:43] <hober> why does that sound familiar?
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  750. # [18:46] <annevk> Mike[tm]: put it in the URL standard
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  752. # [18:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: that is, rename http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html to URL, and make it happen
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  754. # [18:46] <annevk> that is what I would do anyway with more time
  755. # [18:46] <Hixie> MikeSmith: btw if you just took up an action to work on the URL spec, please coordinate with i18n and abarth
  756. # [18:46] <annevk> ooh
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  758. # [18:46] <annevk> document license
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  765. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> Hixie, yeah, I plan to
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  780. # [19:09] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cool
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  793. # [19:55] <jgraham> In which we learn that most people who can afford to go to a week-long meeting are paid by someone to go
  794. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> Orly?
  795. # [19:57] * AryehGregor 's fiancée has a friend named Orly
  796. # [19:57] <jgraham> Orly?
  797. # [19:59] * AryehGregor needs friends named Yarly and Nowai
  798. # [20:02] <jgraham> You could have children named that
  799. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> I'll be sure to suggest it.
  800. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> I'm sure she won't mind. It's only fair that I get to name half the kids, right?
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  803. # [20:08] <karlcow> http://www.businessinsider.com/gm-is-about-to-move-100000-employees-to-google-apps-2011-11
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  805. # [20:09] <_bga> can i critique this api http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/StringEncoding
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  809. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> _bga, I'd suggest asking for use cases
  810. # [20:11] <Hixie> gotta love #htmlwg. "W3C through its process guarantees stability" o_O
  811. # [20:14] <franksalim> _bga, Ms2ger: that proposal looks very useful to me
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  813. # [20:16] <_bga> Ms2ger 1) move it to ArrayBuffer and rename to _encodeFrom, _decodeTo 2) remove byteOffset and byteLen to prefer .slice (its virtual, not copy anything) 3) this API too C'sh, like strcopy or something, immutable api is better, ie ._decodeTo(charset) -> ArrayBuffer, but _encodeFrom(string) is mutable
  814. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Anyway, find the guy who invented it and send your comments to him
  815. # [20:17] <_bga> i hoped he here
  816. # [20:17] <_bga> ok
  817. # [20:18] <franksalim> _bga: are you saying it is better to create a new ArrayBuffer than write bytes into an existing buffer (mutating it)?
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  819. # [20:18] <_bga> yeah
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  821. # [20:19] <_bga> immutable api is better for ppl
  822. # [20:19] <franksalim> worse for performance
  823. # [20:19] <_bga> less chanse make error
  824. # [20:19] <_bga> i know
  825. # [20:19] <franksalim> which many users of typed arrays care about, i think
  826. # [20:19] <franksalim> since the likely uses of this are going to be mixed binary/text formats and protocols
  827. # [20:19] <franksalim> is there any fast path for copying one array buffer into another?
  828. # [20:21] <franksalim> because if i have to have a javascript inner loop to copy bytes, doing the utf8 codec in javascript would probably be faster than creating a temporary buffer
  829. # [20:22] <franksalim> (there may be a fast path for copying, i just haven't seen it in my reading of the Typed Array spec. if there is, what should i look for?)
  830. # [20:24] <_bga> franksalim compiler can analize that you make something like a = a._decodeTo('utf8') or return a._decodeTo('utf8') i.e. you completely forget about old {a} and do translation inplace but i guess malloc is not bottleneck in buffer convertation
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  832. # [20:27] <_bga> franksalim var a = new Int16Array([10]), b = new Int16Array(a); a[0] = 1; b[0]
  833. # [20:29] <franksalim> _bga: i'm not sure i understand the point of that code
  834. # [20:29] <franksalim> constructing a new Int16Array is not the same as copying from one existing buffer into another existing buffer
  835. # [20:30] <_bga> if you pass a.buffer instead a, b will have same buffer as a, but by passing a you copy a.buffer to b.buffer
  836. # [20:31] <_bga> b[0] == 10 prove it
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  838. # [20:31] <franksalim> if i have an existing buffer b, perhaps with some binary header data, and i want to write in additional bytes (perhaps that were encoding a string)
  839. # [20:31] <franksalim> *were the result of encoding a string
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  841. # [20:32] <franksalim> i can't do that in place without a javascript inner loop, i believe
  842. # [20:32] <franksalim> so it is desirable to be able to write that string out as bytes directly into my existing buffer, in my opinion
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  844. # [20:33] <_bga> hm
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  846. # [20:34] <_bga> [].push.apply() does not work
  847. # [20:34] <_bga> heh
  848. # [20:34] <zewt> . o ( dreaming of python's method binding )
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  851. # [20:36] <_bga> bad that typed arrays hasnt realloc
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  935. # Session Close: Sat Nov 05 00:00:00 2011

The end :)