/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-10 / end

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  79. # [02:31] <nattokirai> bz: ping
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  88. # [02:41] <sgentle> hi there
  89. # [02:41] <sgentle> is there a reasonable way to keep a reference to a set of elements in the DOM? Eg, if I had <ul><div /><li /><li /><div /></ul> and I wanted to keep a reference to the <li>s such that I could add another one at the end (or the start, or the middle), and the reference would stay valid even if extra nodes were added or removed around it? I think I basically want something like a documentFragment that is actually in the document
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  98. # [03:03] <roc> what's wrong with just holding references to the nodes?
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  103. # [03:12] <sgentle> gets a bit messy if you remove the last node and add it again
  104. # [03:12] <sgentle> (i.e., what do I anchor to if I have an empty list?)
  105. # [03:12] <sgentle> I'm poking around with Range, which looks promising
  106. # [03:13] <sgentle> (although, as always, browser support is a desolate wasteland of broken dreams)
  107. # [03:18] <zewt> a "reference" to an empty list is usually just null
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  176. # [08:16] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: Dunno what the story with serialization is exactly. Maybe I should implement it for Firefox to make innerHTML work faster.
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  197. # [09:19] <zcorpan> ok so what should happen if http://example.org embeds http://foo.example.org and they both set document.domain to example.org, then the outer page does <body onload="window[0].document.write('foo')"> ? what's the origin of the inner document?
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  199. # [09:22] <zcorpan> afaict from the spec the origin doesn't change as a result of hte document being blown away
  200. # [09:23] <zcorpan> or, wait
  201. # [09:26] <zcorpan> argh
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  247. # [11:33] <smaug____> hsivonen: curious, how stable is outerHTML, or how well do browsers implement it
  248. # [11:33] <smaug____> in other words, should I read the spec and file spec bugs :)
  249. # [11:34] <smaug____> Where is Ms2ger
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  252. # [11:39] <annevk> hober: good news, the beer survived!
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  254. # [11:57] <hsivonen> smaug____: I implemented the spec. Chrome and Opera 12 alpha seemed to implement the spec
  255. # [11:57] <hsivonen> smaug____: IE has implemented it for ages, but in IE, edge cases are weird
  256. # [11:58] <hsivonen> smaug____: edge cases being cases where the context node is something particularly special
  257. # [11:58] <smaug____> hsivonen: you mentioned something about body context yesterday
  258. # [11:59] <hsivonen> smaug____: no, I mentioned setting outerHTML on body, which makes html the context node for the fragment parsing algorithm
  259. # [11:59] <hsivonen> smaug____: that case works the same in Chrome, Opera 12 and (with the patch) Firefox
  260. # [11:59] <hsivonen> smaug____: the result is even logical in its own way even if counter-intuitive
  261. # [12:00] <smaug____> yeah, I meant using outerHTML on body
  262. # [12:00] <hsivonen> smaug____: it fails enough in IE that I don't expect anyone to assign to outerHTML on body anyway
  263. # [12:01] <hsivonen> smaug____: I think we shouldn't worry about the counter-intuitiveness and we should just do what the spec already says and what Opera 12 and Chrome already do
  264. # [12:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: We had a bug where people were assigning outerHTML on <html>
  265. # [12:01] <smaug____> hsivonen: what about DocumentFragment
  266. # [12:01] <jgraham> (it was dark-matterish though)
  267. # [12:01] <smaug____> it is *very* surprising to see <body> created automatically
  268. # [12:01] <hsivonen> smaug____: I made it work per spec
  269. # [12:02] <jgraham> smaug____: You mean <head>?
  270. # [12:02] <smaug____> I mean <body>
  271. # [12:02] <hsivonen> smaug____: in the document fragment case, the body node is only a fictional context node. it doesn't show up in the output
  272. # [12:02] <hsivonen> smaug____: you need to read the spec sentence very carefully
  273. # [12:03] <hsivonen> smaug____: italic parent and upright parent are different nodes
  274. # [12:03] <hsivonen> jgraham: does setting outerHTML on html do something reasonable in IE?
  275. # [12:04] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I should participate in the public-webapps thread and explain why tweaking fragment parsing is harder than it seems
  276. # [12:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't think so
  277. # [12:05] <jgraham> It used to in Opera
  278. # [12:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: What is hard?
  279. # [12:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: DWIM without a context node so that *everything* works intuitively
  280. # [12:06] <smaug____> hsivonen: yes, please, comment something in the webapps
  281. # [12:06] <hsivonen> smaug____: oh, in the patch, I didn't try to make the optimization for parsing directly into the context node
  282. # [12:07] <hsivonen> smaug____: I figured that there are enough ways for the circumstances to prevent the optimization from working
  283. # [12:07] <hsivonen> smaug____: so it would be a premature optimization
  284. # [12:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: Any particular subset of everything you have in mind as being hard?
  285. # [12:08] <smaug____> hsivonen: yeah, we can optimize later
  286. # [12:08] <hsivonen> smaug____: I think we shouldn't optimize unless we later see a lot of perf-critical outerHTML use that would benefit from parsing directly to the context node
  287. # [12:08] <hsivonen> smaug____: ok
  288. # [12:08] <smaug____> hsivonen: I'll do some profiling later
  289. # [12:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: suppose you want a DWIM mode where <html>, <head>, <body>, <tbody>, <tr>, <td>, <g>, <mi>, etc. all do whatever the person invoking the parser intended
  290. # [12:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: in that case, you'd have to support <html> creating an node and enforcing the usual rules for its children *except* after </html>, it would have to allow siblings
  291. # [12:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: for no use cases--just for logic and completeness
  292. # [12:11] * hsivonen goes read the public-webapps thread
  293. # [12:11] <jgraham> Why woulod it have to?
  294. # [12:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: for completeness
  295. # [12:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: otherwise, we'd end up cherry-picking magic modes for some hard tags but not others
  296. # [12:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: maybe we'll end up making a partially magic mode
  297. # [12:12] <jgraham> I mean if you do <html>{stuff}</html>{more stuff} in the contextless mode I would expect it to be like passing that to the HTML parser
  298. # [12:13] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's because you've done QA on an HTML parser!
  299. # [12:14] <jgraham> Well maybe :) But it doesn't seem particularly illogical
  300. # [12:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: btw, any word on the "Mobi" string?
  301. # [12:14] <jgraham> Much less than outerHTML
  302. # [12:14] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.101) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  303. # [12:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: Nothing definitive, there were suggestions that many combinations of the words "Opera" and "Mobile" including them individualy had been problematic on at least some sites
  304. # [12:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  305. # [12:16] * Joins: Ms3ger (9dc13014@gateway/web/freenode/ip.157.193.48.20)
  306. # [12:16] <Ms3ger> smaug____: at your service
  307. # [12:16] <jgraham> Argh it's the evil twin
  308. # [12:20] <annevk> 1.5 times as evil
  309. # [12:21] <smaug____> Ms3ger: hsivonen already answered
  310. # [12:33] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  311. # [12:33] <zcorpan> annevk: why doesn't https://bitbucket.org/annevk/webvtt/issues/query have issue tracking enabled?
  312. # [12:34] <annevk> prolly default
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  315. # [12:38] <zcorpan> can you flip a switch?
  316. # [12:40] * annevk flips and succeeds
  317. # [12:40] <zcorpan> thanks
  318. # [12:40] <smaug____> annevk: which all callbacks use handleEvent? EventListener, some GeoLocation stuff, but what else?
  319. # [12:41] <smaug____> Apparently FunctionStringCallback, but that can and should be changed
  320. # [12:41] <smaug____> and so should NavigatorUserMediaSuccessCallback
  321. # [12:41] <smaug____> aha
  322. # [12:41] * smaug____ files spec bugs
  323. # [12:41] <annevk> BlobCallback
  324. # [12:41] <annevk> there's quite a few
  325. # [12:42] <smaug____> all the ones in HTML spec can be changed
  326. # [12:42] <annevk> there were some more according to people working on Chromium
  327. # [12:42] <annevk> still seems like a pretty silly idea to me
  328. # [12:42] <smaug____> what?
  329. # [12:43] <smaug____> to not use handleEvent everywhere?
  330. # [12:43] <smaug____> it is silly to have badly named methods in interfaces
  331. # [12:43] <annevk> just having function seems fine to me actually
  332. # [12:44] <annevk> these are a lot of extra methods you would have to learn in theory and they will likely almost never end up getting used
  333. # [12:44] <smaug____> "you would have to learn" ?
  334. # [12:44] <smaug____> who would have to learn
  335. # [12:45] <annevk> authors
  336. # [12:45] <smaug____> if web dev doesn't use {} syntax, he doesn't need to care about the method names
  337. # [12:45] <annevk> if they care about the non-function model at all
  338. # [12:45] <annevk> which seems unlikely
  339. # [12:45] <smaug____> {} is used pretty often for event listeners
  340. # [12:46] <annevk> I never encountered it
  341. # [12:46] <annevk> but I haven't done any research
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  344. # [12:54] <hsivonen> smaug____: ok. I responded to the public-webapps thread
  345. # [12:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: Agreed that svg and mathml fragments might be problematic
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  348. # [13:02] <annevk> fwiw
  349. # [13:02] <annevk> yehuda submitted a patch to the bug ms2ger filed for the HTML parsing algorithm
  350. # [13:02] <annevk> I guess that outlines his expectations
  351. # [13:02] <hsivonen> annevk: URL?
  352. # [13:03] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  353. # [13:04] * annevk tries to find it
  354. # [13:06] <annevk> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14694
  355. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  356. # [13:08] * Joins: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk)
  357. # [13:12] <jgraham> That patch doesn't actually work does it?
  358. # [13:12] <jgraham> e.g. <tr><caption>
  359. # [13:12] <jgraham> Uh, bad example
  360. # [13:13] <smaug____> hsivonen: would it make sense to have some kind of innerHTML like method which had context node as a parameter
  361. # [13:14] <zcorpan> like createContextualFragment?
  362. # [13:14] <smaug____> that way svg/mathml could be handled somewhat sane way,
  363. # [13:14] <smaug____> zcorpan: something like that, but createContextualFragment is insane
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  365. # [13:14] <smaug____> :)
  366. # [13:15] <smaug____> it is really silly that one needs to create and initialize a range object to get right context node
  367. # [13:15] <jgraham> (well actually not that bad an example, since that would crash I think)
  368. # [13:16] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.101)
  369. # [13:20] <jgraham> Umm, ignore me, I am being silly
  370. # [13:28] <smaug____> DocumentFragment parseHTML(DOMString aData, [optional] Element aContext)
  371. # [13:28] <smaug____> in Document
  372. # [13:28] <smaug____> or, in each element, but without optional parameter
  373. # [13:30] <zcorpan> innerHTML already has context
  374. # [13:31] <hsivonen> smaug____: the API that takes a DOM node as a context is innerHTML
  375. # [13:32] <hsivonen> smaug____: except the result holder is the same node, not a separate DocementFragment
  376. # [13:32] <smaug____> right
  377. # [13:32] <hsivonen> I think we should add innerHTML, outerHTML and insertAdjacentHTML to SVG and MathML nodes, too.
  378. # [13:33] <smaug____> hsivonen: I'm thinking about sane replacement to createContextualFragment.
  379. # [13:33] <hsivonen> smaug____: would it mark scripts as "already started" or not?
  380. # [13:34] <smaug____> bah. Why do you need to ask difficult questions
  381. # [13:34] <hsivonen> smaug____: I suppose we could have document.createContextualFragment(markup, contextLocal, contextNS)
  382. # [13:35] <hsivonen> smaug____: where omitting contextNS would default to the XHTML namespace
  383. # [13:35] <hsivonen> smaug____: and omitting both contextLocal and contextNS would do Yehuda's DWIM
  384. # [13:36] <hsivonen> or document.parseFragment to have a shorter name
  385. # [13:36] <hsivonen> and to avoid using the same name as a crazy feature
  386. # [13:43] <jgraham> document.parse would be a better name
  387. # [13:44] <jgraham> Nameing in the DOM was one of the things that all the js people were complaining about
  388. # [13:45] <smaug____> js or jQuery or who ;)
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  390. # [13:49] <hsivonen> smaug____: Alex Russell in particular.
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  398. # [14:17] <annevk> zcorpan: thanks for filing the WebVTT issues
  399. # [14:17] * Joins: jdong_bot_ (~jdong_bot@118.186.129.152)
  400. # [14:17] <annevk> zcorpan: I think I'm not going to work much until Monday so if you want to write patches... otherwise I'll get to it
  401. # [14:18] <zcorpan> k
  402. # [14:26] <zcorpan> annevk: i tried pushing a change. it said auth failed
  403. # [14:27] <annevk> try again
  404. # [14:28] <zcorpan> bb/acl: zcorpan is allowed. accepted payload.
  405. # [14:29] <zcorpan> i get an ugly username. oh well
  406. # [14:30] <annevk> way ahead of you
  407. # [14:31] <zcorpan> aah! thanks
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  415. # [14:49] <zcorpan> hmm. settings parser looks scary. i'll leave that one for now :)
  416. # [14:52] <zcorpan> annevk: dom api doesn't expose linePosition auto value. (returns 0 instead.) should we get the spec changed to expose it?
  417. # [14:53] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
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  419. # [14:55] <annevk> zcorpan: if the API only exposes the computed value that does not seem necessary
  420. # [14:57] <Philip`> AryehGregor: If you still want a free Word, you could buy a new computer with Office Start 2010 on it (http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/products/office/pages/office_2010_starter.aspx)
  421. # [14:57] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98)
  422. # [14:57] <davidb_> t
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  426. # [15:03] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  427. # [15:03] <zcorpan> annevk: it'd be nice if the dom api and your parser's api were consistent so it's easy to compare the output
  428. # [15:03] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  429. # [15:05] <zcorpan> annevk: also, i think it would be good to be able to set linePosition to "auto" in the dom api
  430. # [15:06] <annevk> maybe it should be made nullable
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  434. # [15:13] <Philip`> (s/Start/Starter/)
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  437. # [15:14] * jgraham wonders how Philip` manages to collect quite so much correct-but-useless information
  438. # [15:15] <annevk> are you still working on your thesis Philip`?
  439. # [15:18] <Philip`> jgraham: Actually I didn't know about it until half an hour ago when looking at new laptops
  440. # [15:19] <Philip`> annevk: No, it's all written and submitted now
  441. # [15:19] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
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  447. # [15:45] <annevk> so how can webperf specs go to CR exactly?
  448. # [15:45] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/PerformanceTimeline/Overview.html says entryType returns unsigned short but specs define DOMString values for it
  449. # [15:45] <annevk> const DOMString is going to be removed
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  453. # [15:57] <jgraham> annevk: I get the impression WebPerf is the new D3E
  454. # [16:00] <smaug____> :)
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  458. # [16:06] <smaug____> jgraham: NavigationTiming was in CR when it was still very much unimplementable
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  467. # [16:23] <hsivonen> annevk: as part of your XHR testing and speccing, did you test if engines other than Gecko support multipart responses in XHR?
  468. # [16:23] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@i59F7B502.versanet.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  469. # [16:23] <hsivonen> (the only test case I have at hand is entangled in mochitest)
  470. # [16:27] <annevk> afaik only Gecko does it
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  473. # [16:42] <smaug____> hsivonen: http://mozilla.pettay.fi/post_multipart_test.html is an old test
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  484. # [17:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: So what are you doing now?
  485. # [17:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: Shopping for a laptop by the sound of it
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  493. # [17:58] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-tpac-2011
  494. # [17:58] <annevk> featuring tantek's <time> proposal
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  498. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I have trouble understanding advice of the form "If you want a free X, you could buy Y." It doesn't seem internally consistent.
  499. # [18:09] <zewt> if you want a free phone, just sign this $2000 contract!
  500. # [18:12] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It seems to depend on whether the value to you of Y is greater than the cost of Y. If it is you could indeed regard X as free.
  501. # [18:12] <jgraham> (or equal to)
  502. # [18:12] <AryehGregor> jgraham, no, you're just getting a discount on both X and Y.
  503. # [18:12] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish_
  504. # [18:14] <jgraham> I'm not sure why. If you have no interest in X but get it anyway, why would you regard that as a discount on X?
  505. # [18:14] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  506. # [18:14] <AryehGregor> Well, in any event, you're not getting X for free. You're getting X and Y in exchange for money.
  507. # [18:14] <AryehGregor> You might not care that you're getting X, and might be willing to pay the same amount for Y alone.
  508. # [18:15] <AryehGregor> But you're still only getting X in exchange for money, whatever else you get along with it.
  509. # [18:15] <AryehGregor> So it's not free.
  510. # [18:16] * Quits: woef (~woef@91.183.84.141) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  511. # [18:17] * tantek is on the HTML-WG call
  512. # [18:17] <tantek> hgroup is not closed - due to being reopened/extended
  513. # [18:17] <tantek> what are various whatwg opinions on hgroup?
  514. # [18:18] * AryehGregor doesn't care
  515. # [18:18] <annevk> "no change"
  516. # [18:20] <tantek> annevk, would you be opposed to altering (as in dropping) hgroup's presentational effects (e.g. on an automatically generated TOC - leave it up to the UA rather than specifying it) ?
  517. # [18:20] <annevk> not really, that's always up to the UA anyway
  518. # [18:20] <tantek> that's been the biggest problem with it in my opinion
  519. # [18:21] * tantek is unable to get on w3c irc from his current location for some reason. :/
  520. # [18:21] <annevk> are there any meaningful implementations for that yet?
  521. # [18:21] <tantek> not AFAIK
  522. # [18:21] <tantek> which is another good reason to drop that bit from the spec
  523. # [18:21] <annevk> tantek: you can use either http://irc.w3.org/ or irc://irc.w3.org:6665/
  524. # [18:21] <annevk> (the former is a web interface)
  525. # [18:22] <tantek> aha - thanks for the web interface
  526. # [18:27] * jgraham has the opinion that you should encourage people to have conf. calls
  527. # [18:28] <jgraham> *shouldn't
  528. # [18:28] <annevk> heh
  529. # [18:28] <annevk> the HTML WG is going to do a revert via MikeSmith
  530. # [18:28] <annevk> poor MikeSmith
  531. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> woe is me
  532. # [18:28] <annevk> are they going to install MikeSmith as editor next?
  533. # [18:28] <annevk> dial in
  534. # [18:28] <annevk> and find out next week, in the HTML WG teleconference
  535. # [18:31] <tantek> wow that was fast - just 25 min for the telcon
  536. # [18:31] <jgraham> tantek: I think that something with the semantic of <hgroup> is needed. I care less whether it is spelled <hgroup> or <hsub> or whatever
  537. # [18:31] <tantek> jgraham, opinion appreciated.
  538. # [18:31] <jgraham> Assuming they cover the same use cases
  539. # [18:31] <tantek> I tend to prefer avoiding namesmithing/bikeshedding, especially for things which have been in a spec for a while
  540. # [18:32] * tantek would rather tweak/fix hgroup than introduce new element(s).
  541. # [18:32] <jgraham> Which they don't, quite, but it is unclear that the differences are important
  542. # [18:32] <tantek> agreed.
  543. # [18:32] <karlcow> I would prefer an attribute. hsub looks like an annotation. But really I do not care that much as in I didn't find any practical use for it
  544. # [18:32] <tantek> karlcow, why prefer an attribute?
  545. # [18:32] <karlcow> s/hsub looks/hsub content looks/
  546. # [18:33] <tantek> and what attribute on what element(s)?
  547. # [18:34] <annevk> since when do we use attributes for semantics?
  548. # [18:34] <tantek> annevk, re: http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-tpac-2011
  549. # [18:34] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  550. # [18:34] <karlcow> tantek: an attribute because I don't see it only attached to headers. In case it makes sense (which I have doubt) to copy newspaper, magazine, there is always this kind of excerpt of bold text separating sections which looks like a bit the subtitle thing
  551. # [18:34] <jgraham> annevk: Since <input>?
  552. # [18:34] <tantek> s/support for years, months, birthdays lacking a year, and durations/support for years, months, birthdays lacking a year, timezones, and durations
  553. # [18:34] <tantek> jgraham - the input type morphing semantics have largely been admitted to be a design error
  554. # [18:35] <tantek> karlcow - it sounds like you're talking about a different use-case than hgroup
  555. # [18:35] <tantek> hgroup is quite narrowly defined for specific use-cases and I think it's good to keep it that way
  556. # [18:35] <jgraham> Well yes, but the question wasn't "was it a good idea?"
  557. # [18:35] <karlcow> tantek: possible. I didn't find usage of hgroup I guess.
  558. # [18:36] <tantek> jgraham, I think annevk meant that statement in a forward-looking manner ;)
  559. # [18:36] <jgraham> In the case of input, it is unlikely that we would have been able to easily introduce new input types as new elements, so that case isn't clearcut
  560. # [18:36] * karlcow is dire need of things to markup people (authors, etc.) more than hgroup. :)
  561. # [18:36] <jgraham> But I agree in general the idea of an attribute doesn't sound great
  562. # [18:36] * tantek has a spec that karlcow might be able to use to markup people. ;)
  563. # [18:36] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@i59F7B502.versanet.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  564. # [18:38] <karlcow> <person class="auteur">tantek</person> has a <cite>spec</cite>
  565. # [18:39] <karlcow> <livingthing class="person"> if we want to be meta :p
  566. # [18:39] * jgraham runs away
  567. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> <thing livingstate=living class=person>?
  568. # [18:39] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  569. # [18:39] <karlcow> hehe
  570. # [18:40] <tantek> karlcow - nice HTML 3.0 you got there
  571. # [18:40] <karlcow> <person> <time> <location> and we can do a lot of things
  572. # [18:40] * tantek notes that HTML 3.0 had <person>
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  574. # [18:41] <wilhelm> <location> would be very nice.
  575. # [18:41] <tantek> karlcow - in practice, location markup has been problematic
  576. # [18:41] <tantek> in terms of data quality etc.
  577. # [18:41] <tantek> e.g. meta icbm stuff has been a disaster of inaccuracy
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  579. # [18:41] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
  580. # [18:41] <karlcow> I like the stance of flickr on that
  581. # [18:41] <tantek> so it's not clear we know how to design a good location element yet
  582. # [18:41] <tantek> based on data from past 10+ years of attempts to markup location
  583. # [18:41] <karlcow> aaron straup cope/flickr about areas and geoid
  584. # [18:42] <tantek> adr/geo microformats have had some success, but lat/long confusion (swapping, signs) continues to be an issue
  585. # [18:43] * karlcow likes loose models
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  587. # [18:43] <tantek> karlcow - do you have a <location> brainstorm written up on a wiki page? would love to know your next level down thoughts on that.
  588. # [18:43] <tantek> karlcow - that's perhaps TMI
  589. # [18:43] <karlcow> nope :) I don't think I have written things or maybe a long time ago on my blog in French.
  590. # [18:43] <karlcow> Could try to dig it
  591. # [18:44] <zewt> seems like you could never really get lat/long wrong (without noticing it) if it was actually being used
  592. # [18:44] <karlcow> TMI in american context maybe ;)
  593. # [18:44] <Philip`> AryehGregor: You might be wanting to buy a Y in any case, and you'd be getting a X with it even if you didn't want it, so if you do want it then it's a bonus for no extra cost
  594. # [18:44] <zewt> if you're in the US and you post something and a map opens on the side showing australia, something's amiss :)
  595. # [18:45] <tantek> zewt +1
  596. # [18:45] <Philip`> gsnedders: Various bits and pieces, and vaguely trying to think about getting a proper job
  597. # [18:45] <AryehGregor> Philip`, something that you can get only in exchange for money is not free no matter how you slice it, except in marketing-speak. Just because it's a good deal doesn't mean it's free.
  598. # [18:46] <tantek> I think you can get entropy for free.
  599. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> It's possible in principle to produce arbitrarily large quantities of entropy while doing arbitrarily small quantities of work, yes.
  600. # [18:47] <Ms2ger> And bad APIs
  601. # [18:47] <zewt> you get entropy by default :)
  602. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> Sadly, someone normally has to be paid to come up with even bad APIs.
  603. # [18:48] * Joins: KillerX (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-xdjkswpojtitndca)
  604. # [18:48] <karlcow> http://code.flickr.com/blog/2009/10/19/small-bridges-to-proximate-spaces/
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  606. # [18:50] <zewt> your ipv6 is leaking
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  608. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> <time> revert is done
  609. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> Laissez les bons temps rouler
  610. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> I'll send a message to the list
  611. # [18:51] <karlcow> http://www.archimuse.com/mw2009/papers/cope/cope.html
  612. # [18:51] <annevk> I wonder whether it'll go the way of the dodo
  613. # [18:51] <annevk> aka the <canvas> 2D spec
  614. # [18:52] <karlcow> you need <time> for the soup flavor
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  616. # [18:55] * karlcow likes that dodo in French means sleep
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  620. # [19:04] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I suppose an alternative way to view is that if you have recently bought a Windows computer or know someone who has, that computer may well have a version of Office that you can legitimately use for no further cost
  621. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's valid.
  622. # [19:05] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  623. # [19:06] * Ms2ger pokes Philip` towards W3C bugzilla
  624. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> I wonder who Shelly is going to replace Hixie with
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  627. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, don't be silly. Specs are made by the community, not individuals. HTML5 is no different from HTML 4.01, and we didn't need Hixie for that. The important thing is that everyone gets to decide together what will happen, not that there's anyone to actually do it. That part will naturally take care of itself.
  628. # [19:22] * Ms2ger would enjoy sitting back and watching
  629. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> We already did, it was called XHTML2.
  630. # [19:23] * annevk needs to get some party snacks
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  632. # [19:23] * Ms2ger passes annevk some popcorn
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  646. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> Nice, now MikeSmith has to do merge conflict resolution, in CVS no less. Will he be asked to hand-revert the change every time Hixie updates the spec from now on?
  647. # [20:09] * AryehGregor watches with interest
  648. # [20:09] * AryehGregor really doubts there are no merge conflicts with subsequent changes, since it must have touched a ton of things to remove an element
  649. # [20:09] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.101)
  650. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> The date will conflict, at the very least.
  651. # [20:10] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-22-48-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  652. # [20:10] <annevk> hopefully for MikeSmith he is either in a bar or in bed given the time in Tokyo
  653. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> A bar is probably a better path
  654. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> Path? Guess
  655. # [20:10] <annevk> I know the path
  656. # [20:11] * annevk has seen the bar
  657. # [20:12] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.101) (Client Quit)
  658. # [20:12] <wilhelm> Where is the bar? Shinjuku Ni-chōme?
  659. # [20:13] <annevk> somewhere in nishishinjuku
  660. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> WebKit has no window.Selection . . .
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  666. # [20:24] <Hixie> lol, the htmlwg chairs are funny
  667. # [20:24] <Hixie> i feel bad for mike
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  669. # [20:26] <annevk> Ms2ger: I thought we knew it broke jQuery already and were waiting for sicking or some such?
  670. # [20:27] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.101)
  671. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> Were we?
  672. # [20:27] <sicking> you were?
  673. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> I'm waiting for sicking, but that's for reviews ;)
  674. # [20:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: sicking: guess not :)
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  676. # [20:27] <annevk> I like how you fixed it
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  678. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> Oh?
  679. # [20:28] <annevk> hehe, MikeSmith tweeting in Dutch
  680. # [20:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: keeping node document sane for document
  681. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  682. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> I think we use node document for documents in the spec
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  685. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> What's correct behavior for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1253 ? I assume it's iframe1, iframe2, body, which is what IE9 and Firefox 9.0a2 do. Chrome 16 dev and Opera 12.00 do iframe1, body, iframe2 (second iframe doesn't block the load event).
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  691. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> If I just add an iframe dynamically, not from another iframe's onload handler, it does correctly block the load event in WebKit too.
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  694. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> But if I add a second iframe from the first iframe's onload handler, the second one only blocks the load event in some browsers.
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  697. # [20:39] * AryehGregor works around it by using setup({explicit_done: true})
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  703. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Do implementations ever actually throw TypeErrors?
  704. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> I assume so, but in what cases?
  705. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Ah, IE9 does. Nice.
  706. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> We do for pure JS, but not yet for DOM stuff
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  708. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> Good to know.
  709. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> Everyone but Gecko seems to return 0 across the board for the length property of DOM methods.
  710. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> At least the ones I've looked at.
  711. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> Gecko matches WebIDL and returns the minimum number of allowed arguments.
  712. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> (or whatever it's supposed to be; I'm mostly dealing with methods that have a fixed number of arguments)
  713. # [21:13] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, using some script is trivial, but it's silly to do that when there's an element for the job.
  714. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> annevk: Plus the use-case for closing it is really minor in the first place.
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  716. # [21:15] <annevk> "path of least resistance" was key, you could've been done already ;)
  717. # [21:15] <annevk> of course, if you want to make this work with <details>, why not, I don't really care
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  723. # [21:22] <annevk> nn
  724. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> nn
  725. # [21:23] * annevk hopes to wake up around six-sevenish
  726. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> That's not something I usually hope
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  728. # [21:23] <annevk> me neither, but jetlag + going to bed real early makes it reasonable
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  730. # [21:26] <AryehGregor> Hmm. What should getSelection() return when called on a Document with null defaultView?
  731. # [21:26] <AryehGregor> IE and Gecko seem to return the Selection for its window anyway, while WebKit returns null.
  732. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> How do I refer to the window corresponding to an object? Like, the window that has its interface and so on?
  733. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> No, better yet, IE returns a different Selection object entirely.
  734. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Fun.
  735. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> new Image() probably has some wording for that
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  737. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> jgraham, are assert_inherits and assert_idl_attribute exactly the same thing?
  738. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> Also, did you ever review my testharness.js patch?
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  741. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> "If the [NoInterfaceObject] extended attribute was not specified on the interface, then the interface prototype object must also have a property named “constructor” with attributes { [[Writable]]: true, [[Enumerable]]: false, [[Configurable]]: true } whose value is a reference to the interface object for the interface."
  742. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> That implies that Foo.prototype.constructor === Foo for any WebIDL interface, right?
  743. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> Sounds right
  744. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Works in IE, not in Gecko.
  745. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Also works in WebKit.
  746. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> Then it must be wrong ;)
  747. # [21:41] * AryehGregor looks for other things to test
  748. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Object.getPrototypeOf(), fun.
  749. # [21:42] * AryehGregor tests that
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  752. # [21:45] <roc> that might be fixed for NodeList in Gecko
  753. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> What in WebIDL defines that interface objects are own properties of the global object, and not inherited?
  754. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> For every interface that is not declared with the [NoInterfaceObject] extended attribute, a corresponding property MUST exist on the interface’s relevant namespace object.
  755. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-interfaces
  756. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> And it's just an own property by default?
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  758. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> Could be clarified, I guess
  759. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> heycam|away, ^
  760. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Hmm, we need an assert_interface.
  761. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> I should write that.
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  763. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> jgraham, if you aren't going to review my patches when I submit them on Bugzilla, and nor is anyone else, I'm just going to have to keep committing them directly to hg.
  764. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> I mean, when I do that, at least we make some progress.
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  767. # [21:58] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I haven't seen the email
  768. # [21:59] <jgraham> This may be my fault
  769. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I filed it on October 28 and pinged you about it here at least a couple of times. http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14589
  770. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> I'm happy to do review-then-commit, but there has to actually be timely review.
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  772. # [22:02] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It looks OK, I think
  773. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> jgraham, thanks.
  774. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> I'll commit it.
  775. # [22:02] * AryehGregor is currently working on an assert_interface method, though, so will get to that later
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  777. # [22:05] <jgraham> I hate reviewing without a proper tool
  778. # [22:05] <jgraham> What will assert_interface do?
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  784. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> jgraham, assert that something follows everything WebIDL says about interfaces.
  785. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> E.g., assert_interface("Selection", {options:...}, "desc . . .");
  786. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> So far IE and Opera match spec, everyone else gets something wrong.
  787. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Gecko has no .prototype.constructor, WebKit stringifies the interface object incorrectly.
  788. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Tests are far more fun to write than specs!
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  804. # [23:10] <heycam> Ms2ger, I think it's clear, but it'll become even clearer once modules are removed (and then the "interface's relevant namespace object" bit will be replaced by something like "ECMAScript global object")
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  819. # Session Close: Fri Nov 11 00:00:00 2011

The end :)