/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 12 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> sicking: I have no problem with designing some a11y apis into canvas. My problem is designing things in such a way that authors have to go to extra lengths to use them (because most won't), or designing in the absence of use-cases since that almost always results in solving non-problems or solving real problems wrongly.
  4. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> a11y should be as automatic as possible, even if that means you don't get a perfect solution.
  5. # [00:02] * Joins: KillerX_ (~anant@nat/mozilla/x-jlyyeailiecqfvzo)
  6. # [00:02] <Hixie> sicking: i wish the people asking for "making canvas accessible" would in fact do as you say and start with real uses of canvas
  7. # [00:03] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-71-198-169-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> sicking: currently they just hand-wave the use cases and then design things that would only make sense if you were doing something absurd and cockamamie like implementing a word processor in canvas or something
  9. # [00:04] <sicking> TabAtkins: definitely. My suggestion has been to create a API which builds hit-testing into canvas. Then we can use the hit-testing information to provide a11y
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  11. # [00:04] <Hixie> fwiw, hit testing is on my list of things to add to canvas once we do path primitives
  12. # [00:05] <Hixie> which is high on my list to do within the next few momnths
  13. # [00:05] <Hixie> months
  14. # [00:05] <sicking> Hixie: the API i have suggested creates hit-testing without the need for path primitives
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  18. # [00:05] <zewt> so far i've had to use HTML elements overlaid on top of a canvas for hit testing (clumsy and limited, but works)
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  20. # [00:06] <Hixie> sicking: i think we should avoid adding new features to paths that we'd have to duplicate when we have path primitives, but i'm certainly open to suggestions. mail the list or file a bug.
  21. # [00:06] <sicking> Hixie: of course, i can't compare it to a proposal which does use path primitives until someone makes such a proposal ;-)
  22. # [00:06] <sicking> Hixie: done and done
  23. # [00:06] <sicking> Hixie: the bug is already on file and already links to my proposal
  24. # [00:06] <Hixie> cool
  25. # [00:06] <Hixie> url?
  26. # [00:07] <sicking> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13176
  27. # [00:07] <sicking> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JulSep/0195.html
  28. # [00:07] <Hixie> ah man, don't use public-canvas-api
  29. # [00:07] <Hixie> who reads that
  30. # [00:07] <sicking> Hixie: dude, it's in the bug, you know how to find it
  31. # [00:08] <Hixie> sure, i'm just saying htat list is a bad place to send feedback in general
  32. # [00:09] <Hixie> yeah your proposal is basically what i had in mind, except i think we should just do it with Path objects instead of continuing to use the existing path stuff
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  34. # [00:10] <Hixie> since everything we add to the existing path stuff will have to be duplicated when we add path primitives
  35. # [00:10] <Hixie> it's hard to say how good such a proposal would be for accessibility though
  36. # [00:11] <Hixie> oh actually no, your proposal isn't quite what i had in mind
  37. # [00:11] * Quits: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  38. # [00:11] <Hixie> i missed that you were setting a "drawing mode"
  39. # [00:11] <Hixie> my idea was just to use the path to set the boundary rect
  40. # [00:11] <Hixie> s/rect/shape/
  41. # [00:12] <sicking> my proposal is to make everything drawn why "setDrawingFor" forward clicks to the underlying element
  42. # [00:12] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  43. # [00:12] <sicking> that way people have incentive to use the API
  44. # [00:12] <sicking> the a11y is no longer bolt-on
  45. # [00:13] <Hixie> it's not clear to me that that helps a11y
  46. # [00:13] <Hixie> if the user can click, why does the element matter?
  47. # [00:14] <sicking> making a real connection between pixels and elements has many benefits
  48. # [00:14] <sicking> it means we know where to focus if you tab to said element
  49. # [00:14] <Hixie> to me it looks like this would just encourage people to have lots of empty <div>s in the canvas to use as event listeners
  50. # [00:14] <Hixie> we already have a solution to the focus ring problem
  51. # [00:15] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-context-2d-drawsystemfocusring
  52. # [00:15] <sicking> one that anyone is using?
  53. # [00:15] <sicking> or implementing?
  54. # [00:15] <sicking> or has expressed like for?
  55. # [00:15] * Joins: salavas (~salavas@c83-248-102-83.bredband.comhem.se)
  56. # [00:15] <Hixie> implementors from gecko, opera, and webkit have said they like what the whatwg spec has as far as that goes
  57. # [00:15] <Hixie> in fact it was mostly designed by roc
  58. # [00:16] <sicking> i haven't really head any positive feedback about it
  59. # [00:16] <Hixie> the whatwg api or the richs api?
  60. # [00:16] <sicking> the whatwg API
  61. # [00:16] <sicking> i don't know what richs api is
  62. # [00:16] <Hixie> the richs api is the one in the w3c copy of hte canvas spec, that's self-contradictory
  63. # [00:17] <Hixie> the whatwg one, like i said, was designed mostly by roc, with input from people from opera and webkit who were all supportive at the time it was put in
  64. # [00:17] <Hixie> (iirc, i reached out to microsoft but got no reply)
  65. # [00:18] <sicking> ok
  66. # [00:18] <sicking> i guess your experience is different from mine
  67. # [00:18] <Hixie> well, nobody to my knowledge has implemented it
  68. # [00:18] <Hixie> so my experience doesn't mean much :-)
  69. # [00:19] <Hixie> i'm certainly happy to try other solutions that are more likely to get implemented, including linking focus rings with click regions
  70. # [00:20] <sicking> i haven't given a great deal of thought to focus rings, but it doesn't seem like what we currently have is solving a lot of the problem
  71. # [00:20] <Hixie> what we should do is list the actual concrete examples of usage of canvas that are not accessible, but that are valid sensible uses of canvas, and see what we need to do to make those better
  72. # [00:20] <Hixie> that would help us design solid solutions
  73. # [00:21] <zewt> fwiw, https://zewt.org/curves/
  74. # [00:22] <zewt> control points created in the curve should really be tabbable (the actual clickable regions are done with HTML, which is a hack)
  75. # [00:22] * Philip` has been doing some thing that uses canvas and hit-testing, but it was sufficiently trivial to just store a list of rectangle coordinates and test them manually on mousemove, and he wouldn't want to use the actual drawing paths for hit-testing because it's user-friendlier to give several pixels margin around them
  76. # [00:22] <zewt> (hasn't been updated with crossorigin so it'll only work opening local files)
  77. # [00:24] <Hixie> zewt's example is a perfect example of something where it's not at all clear to me how mapping the clickable regions to elements would make it more accessible
  78. # [00:24] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-116-186.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: kennyluck)
  79. # [00:25] <Philip`> With control-point movement you probably want to detect which point is closest to the mouse, rather than picking whichever is within the radius and happened to be drawn first/last
  80. # [00:25] <zewt> a couple other notable things here: the clickable region of the control points is larger than the points, and the mouse cursor is affected by what's hovered (it would be nice to be able to do that without muddling with the cursor by hand in mousemove/mouseover)
  81. # [00:25] * salavas is now known as _salavas
  82. # [00:25] <Hixie> Philip`: indeed
  83. # [00:26] <Hixie> zewt: sounds like a perfect thing for SVG :-)
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  86. # [00:26] <Hixie> zewt: (at least the latter part)
  87. # [00:26] <zewt> Philip`: that doesn't matter much in this particular case, since control points can't be that close together (drag within a few pixels and it deletes the point)
  88. # [00:26] <zewt> but in other cases, yes
  89. # [00:27] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Canvas
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  92. # [00:28] <zewt> Hixie: SVG doesn't help if I need 1 feature from SVG and 9 from Canvas, unless they integrate better than I'm aware
  93. # [00:28] <zewt> (eg. a way to create matching paths in SVG and Canvas, or something like that)
  94. # [00:28] <Hixie> what features do you need from canvas?
  95. # [00:29] <zewt> i havn't used SVG enough to know how to do this sort of thing in it
  96. # [00:29] <Hixie> as far as i'm aware, you can do all of this in svg
  97. # [00:29] * Philip` likes the "easy-to-use API" feature
  98. # [00:30] <Hixie> can't argue with that
  99. # [00:31] <sicking> Hixie, zewt: In that example you'd call setDrawingFor before/after drawing the draggable markers
  100. # [00:31] <Hixie> no, you'd want the path for the hit zones to be bigger than the markers
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  102. # [00:31] <Hixie> sicking: but what element would you forward the clicks to?
  103. # [00:32] <sicking> Hixie: Yeah, I've thought about adding a number argument for getting a bigger area around the drawn figure clickable
  104. # [00:32] <sicking> Hixie: you'd have to create "dummy" elements inside the canvas
  105. # [00:32] <sicking> Hixie: so how would you make that accessible?
  106. # [00:32] <Hixie> (imho best to just have an actual path and just say "within this path is the region")
  107. # [00:33] <Hixie> sicking: i don't know in what sense it is inaccessible
  108. # [00:33] <sicking> Hixie: yeah, you're not the first to suggest that. I'm open to that idea
  109. # [00:33] <Hixie> sicking: certainly a blind person can't use it, but there's not much we can do for them. So presumably we're talking about limited but not zero vision.
  110. # [00:33] <zewt> you can always draw a transparent larger clickable path around your visible part
  111. # [00:33] <Hixie> sicking: or maybe keyboard-only users?
  112. # [00:34] <sicking> Hixie: possibly, i'm not fully sure
  113. # [00:34] <Hixie> zewt: every drawing operation is a transparent area filling the whole canvas, so that doesn't really work :-)
  114. # [00:34] <Hixie> sicking: we can't design an API without knowing what we're trying to solve.
  115. # [00:34] <zewt> i mean, use the transparent path as the clickable part
  116. # [00:34] <Hixie> sicking: (despite what we may see others do)
  117. # [00:34] <zewt> for example, hovering near the path (not over a control point) changes the cursor to cross when you're close enough to click; that clickable region is invisible and complex (follows the curve)
  118. # [00:34] <sicking> Hixie: no, but doing nothing and waiting for the a11y community to come up with something hasn't been terribly successful either
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  122. # [00:35] <zewt> (that's just done manually on mousemove, iirc)
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  124. # [00:36] <zewt> would be a lot nicer to just draw a thicker invisible path around the line of the curve, give it a cursor style (somehow) and receive mousedown
  125. # [00:36] <Hixie> sicking: replacing one unsuccessful strategy with another is not a win :-)
  126. # [00:36] <zewt> afk
  127. # [00:36] <Hixie> sicking: or even an improvement
  128. # [00:37] <Hixie> sicking: when i get aroudn to this i intend to study what the problems actually are in some depth
  129. # [00:37] <sicking> Hixie: i think the "let's not do anything until we know exactly what to do" strategy is the worst possible strategy since it'll just result in others ignoring us and doing whatever they think is the best
  130. # [00:37] <Hixie> sicking: i didn't say "exactly"
  131. # [00:39] <jernoble> Hixie: more MediaController questions
  132. # [00:39] <jernoble> Hixie: "the playbackRate attribute … on setting, must set the MediaController's media controller playback rate to the new value, then queue a task to fire a simple event named ratechange at the MediaController."
  133. # [00:39] <jernoble> Hixie: Should it also set the playback rate of its slaved media elements? or is that implied?
  134. # [00:39] <Hixie> jernoble: the rates are multiplied -- search for "effective playback rate"
  135. # [00:40] * Philip` 's current canvas use is http://zaynar.co.uk/0ad-pub/profiler4.png where every rectangle (including the ~1000 tiny narrow ones along the top) has a tooltip displayed on mouseover containing a load more data
  136. # [00:40] <Hixie> jernoble: actually they're no longer multiplied, the controller just overrides it
  137. # [00:40] <jernoble> Hixie: so it's implied that it directly affects the playback rate of the slaved media elements.
  138. # [00:40] <jernoble> Hixie: right, they're overriden.
  139. # [00:40] <Hixie> jernoble: not implied, it's very explicit
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  141. # [00:41] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, i don't see how a DOM can ever make that more accessible
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  143. # [00:41] <Hixie> Philip`: but it would be good to have accessibility experts actually describe what the ideal accessible UI for that would be
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  146. # [00:42] <Hixie> sicking: there's a world of difference betwene zero data (what we have now), some data sufficient to actually design a good API (what we need, and can easily obtain by speaking to people with experience in this space), and complete and full knowledge that would design an ideal API (which would take years to collect)
  147. # [00:42] <Hixie> sicking: i'm arguing for the second, not the third.
  148. # [00:42] <jernoble> Hixie: got it. thanks.
  149. # [00:42] <Hixie> sicking: and i plan to do the work to collect the data.
  150. # [00:42] <Hixie> jernoble: np
  151. # [00:42] <Hixie> sicking: (though if others want to help that would be fantastic)
  152. # [00:44] <sicking> Hixie: i haven't been operating with zero data. I've been operating with the examples of canvas that i've seen in the wild. Minus the ones that built an editor in canvas as they weren't good products anyway and would be too much work to make accessible, so we simply can't get good results
  153. # [00:45] <Hixie> sicking: can i convince you to list some of those examples on this wiki page? http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Canvas
  154. # [00:45] <Hixie> sicking: or describe them by e-mail?
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  156. # [00:45] <sicking> Hixie: unfortunately most of them i can't find any more :(
  157. # [00:45] <Hixie> sicking: even one would be a start
  158. # [00:46] <Hixie> so far i've added zewt's example
  159. # [00:46] <sicking> Hixie: i'll put some on the wiki
  160. # [00:46] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  161. # [00:46] <Hixie> that would be a huge help
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  164. # [00:49] <zewt> looks like WebGL switched their WebGLContextEvent to a constructor, http://www.khronos.org/registry/webgl/specs/latest/#5.14
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  302. # [09:19] <annevk> more html5lib tests: http://www.davidflanagan.com/2011/11/code-coverage-f.html
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  309. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: very cool
  310. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> " can parse the HTML specification in under 8 seconds"
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  312. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> but doesn't handle document.write() yet
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  333. # [13:55] <Dashiva> Say, does anyone know why 'initial' isn't a valid CSS value for most properties?
  334. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> Buggy specs
  335. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> Also, you may be misreading the subtle requirements that make it valid
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  337. # [13:59] <Dashiva> Oh?
  338. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> "All CSS properties also accept the keyword values ‘inherit’ and ‘initial’ as their property value, but for readability these are not listed explicitly in the property value syntax definitions."
  339. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/#component-types
  340. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> So anything that depends on css3values supports it, anything that references css21 doesn't
  341. # [14:02] <Dashiva> Oh, I wasn't aware that css3 had changed that
  342. # [14:02] <Dashiva> Cool
  343. # [14:02] <Ms2ger> There was some discussion about making it more obvious on www-style
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  345. # [14:05] <Ms2ger> Also, can someone tell the WebGL people that DOM *2* Core isn't the right spec to reference for "DOMString"?
  346. # [14:16] <annevk> still think we should have named it string
  347. # [14:17] <Ms2ger> Meh
  348. # [14:17] <annevk> Teh
  349. # [14:17] <annevk> it's weekend, bikeshedding is encouraged
  350. # [14:18] <annevk> finally played Portal this morning by the way
  351. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> Go ahead, the shed is over there
  352. # [14:18] <annevk> great twist
  353. # [14:18] <annevk> the challenges that come with the Xbox edition are hard though
  354. # [14:18] <annevk> haven't really completed those
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  356. # [14:35] <Dashiva> The max number of portals used ones are okay
  357. # [14:35] <Dashiva> Since you can think about what you're doing
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  360. # [14:48] <annevk> pro tip: if your internet is slow, try resetting the router
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  381. # [17:18] <erlehmann> annevk, now go play http://cymonsgames.com/asciiportal/
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  468. # Session Close: Sun Nov 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)