/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 14 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [00:24] <annevk> so much for sleeping before midnight :)
  19. # [00:25] <annevk> http://imgur.com/K7D7Y hehe
  20. # [00:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: tokenizer.py:184(entitiesStartingWith) is a huge bottleneck in html5lib/PyPy, accounting for a 1/6th of complete.html parse-time.
  21. # [00:25] <gsnedders> Guess we should move over to using a trie.
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  23. # [00:25] <gsnedders> I mean, we could cache it, but that seems hacky, and will just end up using way more memory than doing it properly.
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  25. # [00:27] <Philip`> Alternatively, hardcode the entities lt/gt/amp/quot because they're a vast majority of all occurrences
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  27. # [00:27] <Philip`> (and fall back to a slower search if it's none of them)
  28. # [00:28] <Philip`> (Also, look at data to verify the hypothesis that those entities are the vast majority)
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  32. # [00:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: Doesn't help seeming it's scanned one-character-at-a-time
  33. # [00:40] <Philip`> See if first char is l/g/a/q; if so, see if self.stream.char() is t/t/m/u; etc; then when it falls off the fast path, send the whole list of characters to the slower lookup code
  34. # [00:41] <Philip`> Might avoid the cost of doing a load of expensive dictionary lookups (as with a trie) for the common cases
  35. # [00:43] <gsnedders> Seems to be the slowest thing in Python 2.7.2 too
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  49. # [01:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: Um, tests don't run anymore.
  50. # [01:13] <gsnedders> Why do you always break tests? ;_;
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  126. # [09:55] <zcorpan> should structured clone support Stream?
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  131. # [10:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Why do you think I broke anything?
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  134. # [10:03] <jgraham> Also, tries aren't exactly famous for being particularly low-memory usage
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  140. # [10:23] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I fear the number of asserts bound up in assert_interface
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  171. # [12:44] <annevk> okay so roc argued for nested fullscreen
  172. # [12:44] <annevk> and nobody else said anything
  173. # [12:45] <annevk> I think that means I'll go with roc and see what happens next
  174. # [12:45] <annevk> people are also complaining (not on list) about the style rules
  175. # [12:45] <annevk> e.g. background:black is problematic
  176. # [12:45] <annevk> and either padding/border need to be cleared or we need to set box-sizing
  177. # [12:45] <annevk> the latter is prolly better
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  180. # [12:52] <jgraham> FWIW I think roc's argument is pretty convincing so I changed my mind
  181. # [12:53] <annevk> I presented the same argument
  182. # [12:53] <jgraham> Yeah, but roc is more convincing than you :p
  183. # [12:54] <jgraham> (I think I had actually underestimated the difficulty of working around the problem)
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  185. # [12:56] <annevk> So argument by authority works on you? hah
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  187. # [12:56] <annevk> In any event, roc's stack description does not seem to work
  188. # [12:56] * jgraham wonders what sounded like "argument from authority"
  189. # [12:58] <jgraham> What's wrong with the stack?
  190. # [12:58] <Ms2ger> It's just doctors together, I guess
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  192. # [13:00] <annevk> jgraham: the stack is per document, but then you still need a check if the element on the stack is in the document
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  198. # [13:08] <annevk> jgraham: basically, the exitFullscreen steps make it seem the stack is global
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  204. # [13:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: Because you tried to get the tests running with nose without updating the documentation or any of the other tests
  205. # [13:38] <gsnedders> Like runtests.py and runparsertests.py just throw errors now
  206. # [13:40] <zcorpan> now you're just being picky
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  208. # [13:51] <jgraham> Oh, did I commit that?
  209. # [13:52] <jgraham> Well, having the tests running in nose is a huge win for sanity
  210. # [13:54] <jgraham> So think of it an an impetus to make the other tests work properly (i.e. in nose)
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  216. # [14:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: See, I'm still not sure it's much of a win, and breaking it is just annoying.
  217. # [14:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: I am entirely sure it is 100% win
  218. # [14:15] * gsnedders wants a receieve hook that rejects anything that regresses any testcase
  219. # [14:15] <jgraham> No
  220. # [14:16] <jgraham> Apart from anything else it would quickly get complicated
  221. # [14:16] <jgraham> Imagine someone adding a TC that we fail. Why would one reject other pushes for failing to address that?
  222. # [14:17] <jgraham> So you would either need to make people add annotations like "expected fail" that the commit hook would ignore
  223. # [14:17] <jgraham> (+ to indicate TC fails)
  224. # [14:17] <jgraham> Or keep a list of known passes/fails
  225. # [14:18] <zcorpan> you could reimplement spartan for html5lib
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  227. # [14:18] <jgraham> Doing that once is enough I think :p
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  230. # [14:24] <Philip`> Have a receive hook that sends a warning message to IRC on test failures, so people can apply their own judgement and decide whether to tell off the committer
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  232. # [14:25] * jgraham suggests lack of infrastructure is not the main problem
  233. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> jgraham, but the tools will save us!
  234. # [14:28] <jgraham> If by "tools" you mean "street corner preachers" and "save us" you mean "convert us to Jesus" then I still have my doubts
  235. # [14:29] <zcorpan> well you kinda look like Jesus anyway :)
  236. # [14:29] <annevk> dr Jesus
  237. # [14:30] <jgraham> Rumbled
  238. # [14:31] * jgraham notes that if Jesus looked like him, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb in the middle east
  239. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> Like you with a tan, perhaps?
  240. # [14:35] <jgraham> I'm not sure I get tans, just more pronounced freckles
  241. # [14:36] <annevk> http://i.imgur.com/JVI4V.jpg and even so, within half an hour you're in the mountains
  242. # [14:37] <annevk> one of the reasons Tokyo is pretty awesome
  243. # [14:41] <myakura> Is that a view from Takaosan?
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  246. # [14:43] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  247. # [14:44] <hsivonen> I *think* I've seen Zeldman show a CSS example that included an unprefixed CSS property in anticipation of the property getting standardized in the future
  248. # [14:44] <hsivonen> now I can't find such an example on this blog
  249. # [14:44] <hsivonen> am I imagining things?
  250. # [14:44] <annevk> myakura: helicopter
  251. # [14:45] <myakura> annevk: yeah... Takaosan's never been that close to the city.
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  254. # [14:47] <annevk> I meant that Tokyo is so vast, and even so it's pretty easy to get to the mountains
  255. # [14:49] <annevk> Ms2ger: btw, for DOM4, we need to make sure insert DocumentFragment is atomic
  256. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> Yep
  257. # [14:49] <annevk> Ms2ger: and we need to have some kind of innerHTML handle, replace all children with DocumentFragment
  258. # [14:50] <annevk> whenever such an insert happens a "MutationRecord" is created if there are appropriate listeners
  259. # [14:50] <annevk> MutationRecord are not really created in a smart way otherwise
  260. # [14:51] <annevk> if you change an attribute several times in a row, you get multiple of them
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  318. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Do you have tests for TreeWalker?
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  322. # [18:25] <Ms2ger> No
  323. # [18:25] <Ms2ger> I can probably point you at the ones Mozilla has
  324. # [18:26] <gsnedders> Okay, apparently it's fairly trivial to crash IE9 with. And apparently in Opera previousNode and parentNode are identical.
  325. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> Nice
  326. # [18:26] <gsnedders> But yeah, pointing at a testsuite would be nice.
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  329. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/events/test/test_bug650493.html is one...
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  332. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> I was thinking about http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/test/test_NodeIterator_basics_filters.xhtml?force=1, apparently
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  334. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> Which points at http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/traversal/node-iterator/...
  335. # [18:34] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  336. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> And http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/traversal/tree-walker/ is.. Bah, empty
  337. # [18:35] <annevk> reminds me of one of my unfinished projects, http://testsuite.org/
  338. # [18:35] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f732382.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  339. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/test/test_treewalker_nextsibling.xml
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  342. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/test/test_bug628938.html
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  344. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/test/test_bug338541.xhtml
  345. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> That's about it, I think
  346. # [18:43] <annevk> should prolly import those tests too
  347. # [18:43] <annevk> one test suite to rule them all
  348. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I need to look at that
  349. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> Put that list somewhere, will you? :)
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  351. # [18:48] <annevk> krijn already did for me
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  361. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> jgraham, do you have a better idea than lots and lots of asserts in one? I think it's essential that we have all that logic packaged up in one place, because exact same things should be tested for every single interface declared in any spec . . .
  362. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> s/exact/the exact/
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  368. # [19:15] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: how about a helper function that generates a bunch of tests?
  369. # [19:16] <zcorpan> testWebIdlStuff(interfaceObject, instance, {settings:'maybe'})
  370. # [19:19] <krijn> annevk: with pleasure!
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  372. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> krijn, thanks! :)
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  374. # [19:22] <krijn> is it still fast enough?
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  377. # [19:25] <Ms2ger> I noticed the front page sometimes is a day out of date
  378. # [19:25] <krijn> Probably because of time zones
  379. # [19:26] <krijn> I think a cache builder is running every night or something
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  410. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> Using HTML5, how would you mark up the "to" and "from" in a letter?
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  427. # [21:24] <roc> annevk: can you explain in more detail why the stack doesn't work?
  428. # [21:24] <roc> and why background:black doesn't work?
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  431. # [21:33] <zewt> roc: one comment I made about background: black (don't think anyone responded to it) was http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.w3c.whatwg.discuss/32958
  432. # [21:34] <roc> oh, you're Glenn Maynard?
  433. # [21:34] <roc> interesting
  434. # [21:34] <zewt> in a good way or a bad way? heh :P
  435. # [21:34] <roc> unfortunately I have trouble keeping my Glenn's straight
  436. # [21:34] <zewt> i've only seen one other posting on whatwg/webapps
  437. # [21:34] <zewt> (and infrequently)
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  439. # [21:34] <roc> right
  440. # [21:35] <roc> I frequently find myself disagreeing with that Glenn
  441. # [21:35] <zewt> i vaguely remember disagreeing with him, but no recollection of about what
  442. # [21:35] <zewt> (actually, my recollection is "i wish this guy didn't have my name" ...)
  443. # [21:36] <roc> better change your name to something more unique :-)
  444. # [21:37] <zewt> i'd expect that the ancestor elements of the fullscreen element would not be rendered, even without blackground being set, but I don't know how that works in detail
  445. # [21:37] <zewt> glenn-99295c95-4fbc-4c23-96d3-8fd0666e2f60
  446. # [21:38] <roc> that kind of change requires invasive changes to the layout engine
  447. # [21:38] <roc> which don't really serve any useful purpose
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  462. # [22:11] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I didn't have a better idea but zcorpan's idea is interesting
  463. # [22:12] <jgraham> Only seems worth it if there are other cases where it could be used though
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  468. # [22:35] <gsnedders> I think we want something that goes further than that: something that autogenerates tests for things such as [TreatNullAs=] as well as the property descriptor.
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  473. # [22:40] <jgraham> Well the logical conclusion is something where you paste a whole idl block in as text and do test_idl() and it runs all the tests for you
  474. # [22:40] <jgraham> The question is whether it is useful to have a bit less magic than that and make people write test for different parts of the idl by hand
  475. # [22:41] <jgraham> I'm not sure what the sweet spot is between ease of writing tests and ease of understanding the output
  476. # [22:41] <jgraham> I guess sone can have both
  477. # [22:44] <gsnedders> I think we just want to take a whole IDL block
  478. # [22:45] <gsnedders> Optionally with a function that returns an instance of the interface if it doesn't have a zero-argument constructor
  479. # [22:48] <jgraham> Why a function?
  480. # [22:48] <jgraham> Just pass in an instance
  481. # [22:48] <jgraham> Well I gues you might need many instances
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  489. # [22:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: What does nose actually buy us in the html5lib case?
  490. # [22:54] <jgraham> Me not wanted to kill people?
  491. # [22:54] <jgraham> Also, more seriously, test generators are ideal for us
  492. # [22:55] <jgraham> Since we generate a bunch of tests from a data file it is totally natural to represent that as a single test function being called multiple times from a generator
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  494. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Eh, they make the tests harder to run (we appear to have almost a thousand errors currently…), and that's only relevant for people changing the test harness code, which is almost nobody.
  495. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Optimizing for people editing that code is the wrong optimization.
  496. # [22:56] <jgraham> Rather than the crazy thing we did with unittest where we built a class wih test_* methods at runtime
  497. # [22:56] <jgraham> I have hated that code more than any other code in the project for some time
  498. # [22:57] <jgraham> I agree that if there is a committed partial conversion that's bad and we should finish the conversion
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  500. # [22:57] <gsnedders> I believe that the default unittest in Ython nowadays can do everythign you need to get rid of that ugliness
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  503. # [23:02] <jgraham> Show me where. I don't see it
  504. # [23:02] <jgraham> It adds test discovery but afaict not generators
  505. # [23:02] <gsnedders> "Tests grouped by a TestSuite are always accessed by iteration. Subclasses can lazily provide tests by overriding __iter__()."
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  507. # [23:04] <jgraham> That will still be ugly
  508. # [23:04] <jgraham> We will sill have to create a TestCase for each test at runtime
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  510. # [23:05] <gsnedders> And creating an object is so much worse than creating a tuple?
  511. # [23:05] <jgraham> Basically my problem with UnitTest is that it is a bout an order of magnitude more complex than needed, mostly for the benefit of looking like java
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  513. # [23:05] <paul_irish> there is clearly a difference between how http://livedom.validator.nu/ and http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ are acting. is one considered more maintained?
  514. # [23:05] <jgraham> Which is not something I aspire to
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  516. # [23:06] <Ms2ger`> paul_irish, they have different purposes
  517. # [23:06] <jgraham> paul_irish: I don't think either are particularly maintained. But the validator.nu one I expect has not been updated recently (it uses a javascript implementation of the parsing algorithm)
  518. # [23:06] <Ms2ger`> paul_irish, the former is based on the validator.nu parser, the latter uses your browser
  519. # [23:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: The errors that I see have no particular relationship to the test harness I don't think
  520. # [23:07] <paul_irish> ah uses a GWT compilation of the parser. cool.
  521. # [23:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: Regardless, the output from parser tests of unittest was a lot more usable than what we get now from nose, and that's far more important
  522. # [23:08] <jgraham> I disagree. nose's output is better
  523. # [23:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: With unittest we got far more readable identifiers for testse.
  524. # [23:12] <gsnedders> Also I can't get nose usefully working with pdb at all :\
  525. # [23:13] <gsnedders> It puts me into pdb in a totally different place to the stack it gives me at the end, useful.
  526. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Ergh, we're breaking relying upon non-documented behaviour.
  527. # [23:16] <annevk> roc: hey, I want to go to bed, but the background works poorly because there's no color, and if you have a background set already it gets thrown away because of the current style rules; we could make background:black apply at the normal UA style sheet level of course
  528. # [23:17] <annevk> roc: your description of stacking I didn't get because all the elements on a stack would be in the document
  529. # [23:17] <annevk> roc: because the stack is document bound
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  531. # [23:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: Bloody hell html5lib is broken from a testsuite POV…
  532. # [23:23] <gsnedders> And yes, I am bitchy about this.
  533. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Because every time I want to hack on html5lib I invariably spend the vast majority of my time fixing regressions that others ahve introduced and would ahve found if they had run the testseuite.
  534. # [23:24] <gsnedders> s/ahve/have/g
  535. # [23:24] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  536. # [23:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just as well it is as easy as typing nosetests now then
  537. # [23:28] <jgraham> I just fixed most of the error
  538. # [23:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, it's as easy as installing nosetests and running it compared with just running runtests.py
  539. # [23:29] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  540. # [23:30] <gsnedders> jgraham: And you did it a lot quicker than I did.
  541. # [23:30] <jgraham> If you aren't already using pip + virtualenv you have bigger problems
  542. # [23:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's still an extra step.
  543. # [23:32] * Philip` has never used either pip or virtualenv, and wouldn't know where to start
  544. # [23:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: Obviously you have bigger problems then
  545. # [23:32] <Philip`> I have many problems
  546. # [23:34] <jgraham> I bet in practice you would start with google
  547. # [23:34] <Ms2ger`> And bugs you need to get to
  548. # [23:34] <jgraham> 10 errors/8 fails
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  551. # [23:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: Le sigh, now I have a merge conflict from both of us fixing one bug.
  552. # [23:36] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@12.1.203.2) (Quit: shepazu)
  553. # [23:36] * gsnedders wonders how to get his repo back to the correct state
  554. # [23:37] <jgraham> Given the size of the bugs it can't have been more than one line
  555. # [23:37] <jgraham> Unless it was in test_sanitizer
  556. # [23:37] <jgraham> In which case you want my copy
  557. # [23:37] <gsnedders> It was etree, because I wrote a far longer commit message :P
  558. # [23:37] <gsnedders> And now I have two additional merges, and an extra fix.
  559. # [23:38] <gsnedders> Why does hg have to be so hard to use!?
  560. # [23:39] <jgraham> It's not, it's just git brain damage
  561. # [23:39] <jgraham> I get the same
  562. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Oh, no, now you've fixed the one issue I fixed while I was fighting merges…
  563. # [23:39] <gsnedders> jgraham: How do I find out what a push would push with hg?
  564. # [23:39] <gsnedders> How do I revert to the remote head?
  565. # [23:39] <gsnedders> I can't find any easy way to do either.
  566. # [23:40] <jgraham> hg outgoing shows what you would push
  567. # [23:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: Nice of them to mention that in the hg push documentation.
  568. # [23:40] <jgraham> and hg update -r {revision} for the other thing
  569. # [23:41] <jgraham> Dunno if there is an equivalent of origin/master
  570. # [23:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: That doesn't work.
  571. # [23:41] <gsnedders> Because it's a parent of the revision I'm currently on.
  572. # [23:42] <gsnedders> I can't actually get it back. WTF?
  573. # [23:42] <jgraham> I don't understand what you mean, but maybe --clean
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  575. # [23:42] <gsnedders> hg up -r e46af3a0f549 is a no-op.
  576. # [23:42] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net)
  577. # [23:42] <gsnedders> --clean doesn't help
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  579. # [23:43] <jgraham> And help
  580. # [23:43] * Joins: J_Voracek (~J_Voracek@71.21.195.70)
  581. # [23:43] <jgraham> That's not what I was aiming for
  582. # [23:44] <jgraham> And e46af3a0f549 isn't your local HEAD?
  583. # [23:44] <gsnedders> No, that's the merge of my fix for your last two commits and your last two commits.
  584. # [23:45] <gsnedders> And I don't really want to push four commits that in total change zero lines of code.
  585. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Because that's just fucking stupid.
  586. # [23:46] <jgraham> Enable the mq extension and hg strip them away?
  587. # [23:46] <jgraham> (note: may be dangerous)
  588. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Bloody hell, how can this be so hard in hg?
  589. # [23:46] <jgraham> Well I don't really understand what you have done so it is hard to help
  590. # [23:48] <gsnedders> my head is a commit which merges two heads — one is the current remote in the remote repo, one is an identical fix for the same bug which is local.
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  593. # [23:50] <jgraham> The documentation claims that hg update -C -r works
  594. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Bullshit.
  595. # [23:50] <gsnedders> gsnedders@vanveen:~/Documents/my-projects/OSS/html5lib/python/html5lib/tests$ hg up -C -r e46af3a0f549
  596. # [23:50] <gsnedders> 0 files updated, 0 files merged, 0 files removed, 0 files unresolved
  597. # [23:51] <gsnedders> gsnedders@vanveen:~/Documents/my-projects/OSS/html5lib/python/html5lib/tests$ hg log --limit 1
  598. # [23:51] <gsnedders> changeset: 1738:82a5ce2a85a4
  599. # [23:52] <gsnedders> http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/04/15/hg-reverting-committed-changes/ claims I have to clone the whole repo to do it.
  600. # [23:52] <gsnedders> Wow.
  601. # [23:53] <gsnedders> Okay, so now I've spent the past twenty minutes trying to push fixes that you managed to push because I was fighting hg, onwards!
  602. # [23:53] <jgraham> You really don't *need* to
  603. # [23:55] <jgraham> Rule 1 of the internet is "don't believe blogs that are written by people who don't understand what they are doing and mainly sourced from 'facts' cobbled together on twitter"
  604. # [23:56] <gsnedders> Well, it was the best documentation I could find!
  605. # [23:56] <jgraham> Even the first comment is better documentation than the post!
  606. # [23:58] <jgraham> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5833616/mercurial-getting-out-of-a-bad-merge
  607. # [23:58] <gsnedders> And how do I run nose under Python 3?
  608. # [23:58] <gsnedders> Unless I have two separate html5lib clones running in different virtualenvs…
  609. # Session Close: Tue Nov 15 00:00:00 2011

The end :)