/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 15 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <gsnedders> Just, wow. nose is *really* simplifying stuff.
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  6. # [00:01] <jgraham> Huh?
  7. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> jgraham, gsnedders, zcorpan: yeah, what we ideally want is something that parses a WebIDL block and generates a whole bunch of tests. But some things will still need to be tested manually, e.g., argument type conversion -- there's no way in general to figure out whether the arguments were converted correctly, or whether it's even safe to call the function with those arguments in the first place.
  8. # [00:02] <jgraham> Well yeah I guess any use of python 3 will require a different interpreter + set of libs
  9. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Still, we could do a whole lot based on the IDL block.
  10. # [00:02] <JonathanNeal> What do you think if i use data-* attributes in places where I used to use class=. These data- attribute names have more semantic meaning to the document than just presentation. eg <table data-meta> for tabular data that serves as the meta or abstract of the document.
  11. # [00:03] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Sounds like I have a project :)
  12. # [00:03] * jgraham will now sleep
  13. # [00:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: There's no simple way to get tests running under Python 3 and Python 2 without a lot of work using Nose.
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  15. # [00:04] <gsnedders> Without nose it was trivial.
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  23. # [00:18] <gsnedders> I'm confused as to what has happened to history as a result of that merge.
  24. # [00:18] <gsnedders> Like, it looked fine locally, but now I'm just confused.
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  26. # [00:20] <Philip`> Try "hg view" to visualise the repository, maybe?
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  28. # [00:22] * timeless isn't familiar w/ hg view
  29. # [00:23] <Philip`> If you're familiar with gitk, it's that
  30. # [00:23] <gsnedders> That makes it look a heckuva lot cleaner than Google Code does.
  31. # [00:24] * timeless tends to use hg glog
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  50. # [01:16] <eric_carlson> Hixie: ping?
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  83. # [02:45] <JonathanNeal> Why does <address> only scope to <article> but not other sectioning content? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-address-element
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  130. # [05:10] <Hixie> eric_carlson: here
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  156. # [05:51] <eric_carlson> Hixie: if <track>.kind is changed from a known to an unknown value, what should <track>.track.kind return?
  157. # [05:51] <Hixie> same as if it started with an unknown value, i hope
  158. # [05:51] <Hixie> but let me check what the spec says
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  162. # [06:04] <eric_carlson> Hixie: that is what I assumed logically, but I wasn't sure from the spec text
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  165. # [06:21] <Hixie> eric_carlson: so it looks like "text track kind" is defined from the current attribute value here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#sourcing-out-of-band-text-tracks
  166. # [06:22] <Hixie> eric_carlson: and track.kind is defined in terms of "text track kind" here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-texttrack-kind
  167. # [06:23] <Hixie> eric_carlson: so yeah, whenever the content attribute is invalid or missing, the DOM attribute will return "subtitles"
  168. # [06:23] <eric_carlson> Hixie: great, thanks for the confirmation!
  169. # [06:23] <Hixie> np
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  239. # [09:55] <hsivonen> does yandex.ru offer @yandex.ru email to its users like @yahoo.com emails are user emails?
  240. # [09:56] <hsivonen> unlike @google.com emails
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  242. # [10:01] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpassport.yandex.ru%2Fpassport%3Fmode%3Dregister - "Usename: [ ] @ Yandex.ru" - looks like it
  243. # [10:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok. thanks
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  246. # [10:09] <hsivonen> hmm. Roy T. Fielding is the editor of the W3C DNT spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-tracking-dnt-20111114/
  247. # [10:09] <hsivonen> I'm a bit surprised. I had no idea he worked on that stuff.
  248. # [10:09] <Dashiva> I know why it's called DNT, but "Tracking Preference Expression (DNT)" still looks silly
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  250. # [10:11] <hsivonen> hmm. the IDL isn't [Supplemental]
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  253. # [10:12] <Philip`> Dashiva: Doesn't seem much sillier than the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN)
  254. # [10:12] <hsivonen> might be a good idea for someone who knows WebIDL better than I do to check the implements/supplements situation of the DNT spec
  255. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: or UTC
  256. # [10:14] <hsivonen> while I realize there's the UTx pattern, UTC looks like a compromise between English and French by choosing a permutation that makes sense for neither
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  266. # [10:25] <heycam> hsivonen, I think what's there works
  267. # [10:26] <heycam> hsivonen, though I think people prefer the shorter "partial interface Navigator { ... }" these days
  268. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  269. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> That's a respecism, I think
  270. # [10:32] <hsivonen> ok
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  299. # [11:54] <annevk> oh yes SSID strings just gained meaning
  300. # [11:55] <annevk> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/11/greater-choice-for-wireless-access.html
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  307. # [12:09] <Philip`> Using "ends with _nomap" as a flag doesn't sound the most highly scalable solution when someone else in the world invents a second SSID flag
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  309. # [12:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: they'll just have to accept that their flag might not be the last one
  310. # [12:13] <hsivonen> I wonder what font rasterizer the Google Docs PDF reader uses
  311. # [12:13] <annevk> there's a maximum length of 32 characters
  312. # [12:14] <annevk> it's gonna be fun if there's more flags
  313. # [12:14] <hsivonen> the rasterizer manages to produce the kind of ugliness that's familiar to Windows users, but surely Google isn't running that stuff on Windows
  314. # [12:14] <annevk> is naming your SSID "_nomap" sufficient?
  315. # [12:15] <hsivonen> what's the deal with people freaking out about SSID-based mapping anyway?
  316. # [12:15] <hsivonen> what's the model of threat to privacy?
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  319. # [12:17] <krijn> TabAtkins: okay if we publish your #fronteers11 video this week?
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  322. # [12:18] <hsivonen> krijn: btw, I occasionally see an old snapshot of http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ in Opera Mini. Did you change caching headers? Did Opera make their caching over-aggressive? What has happened?
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  325. # [12:19] <krijn> Old as in a day old?
  326. # [12:19] <hsivonen> krijn: yes
  327. # [12:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: You might move to live in a secret new location to evade a stalker/criminal/etc, but would take your wireless router with you, and the stalker/etc could later query Google's access point database to figure out where you are now living
  328. # [12:20] <krijn> hsivonen: that cache is only updated once a day
  329. # [12:20] <krijn> I think
  330. # [12:21] <hsivonen> krijn: ok. it's annoying not to find the link to the latest log there from time to time
  331. # [12:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok. that's a reasonable use case
  332. # [12:22] <Philip`> Or you might carry an access point around with you (as an ad-hoc network or 3G-wifi-bridge thing) and people could discover where you had been in the past
  333. # [12:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: that's a reasonable use case, too
  334. # [12:24] <Philip`> Or you might just be paranoid and hate Google
  335. # [12:24] <krijn> hsivonen: it should update around 00:15 CET each day
  336. # [12:25] <krijn> Ah, I see, yeah, if there's no activity in a channel in those 15 minutes, the log isn't created yet
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  339. # [12:37] <hsivonen> krijn: can that be fixed easily?
  340. # [12:37] <annevk> hsivonen: you should bookmark /irc-logs/whatwg
  341. # [12:37] <annevk> it redirects to the latest
  342. # [12:37] <krijn> What annevk said
  343. # [12:37] <hsivonen> annevk: I suppose. Back when I set up my Speed Dial, I expected to read #html-wg logs, too, but there's nothing interesting there typically
  344. # [12:38] <hsivonen> krijn: it would be nice to have a link from the log page to the previous log, too
  345. # [12:39] <Ms2ger> annevk, well, that only works if you stay up past midnight
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  347. # [12:40] <krijn> hsivonen: yeah, I should build that some day.. Even though the archive is static now
  348. # [12:42] <hsivonen> I updated my Speed Dial using a device with better bookmark management ergonomics. Let's see how long it takes for change to propagate to Opera Mini on the legacy phone
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  351. # [12:54] <gwicke> hello, I am trying to find or generate a stand-alone Javascript version of the HTML parser at validator.nu
  352. # [12:54] <gwicke> tried GWT, but did not find any up-to-date pointers on the build process
  353. # [12:55] <gwicke> ideally, I am looking for something less obscured than the GWT-generated one at livedom.validator.nu
  354. # [12:55] <annevk> gwicke: http://www.davidflanagan.com/2011/10/html-parsing-wi.html
  355. # [12:56] <gwicke> annevk: thanks!! reading..
  356. # [12:57] <hsivonen> gwicke: you need to adapt the HtmlParser-compile-detailed script or the HtmlParser-compile-detailed.launch Eclipse launch setup to the path on your system and the details of your GWT version
  357. # [12:58] <gwicke> hsivonen: I did not see those in the tarball
  358. # [12:58] <hsivonen> gwicke: it's in the hg repo
  359. # [12:59] <gwicke> oh- only found an old svn one so far
  360. # [12:59] <hsivonen> https://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/
  361. # [13:00] <hsivonen> gwicke: where was the link to the old svn repo?
  362. # [13:00] <gwicke> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_parser
  363. # [13:01] <gwicke> hsivonen: and thanks for the hg location! Did not find it at http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/
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  368. # [13:08] <hsivonen> gwicke: thanks. I fixed both pages
  369. # [13:10] <hsivonen> mattur's email archeology is awesome: https://twitter.com/#!/mattur/status/136411627695251456
  370. # [13:10] <gwicke> hsivonen: it looks like David's parser might be better for my needs, but if I succeed in generating the JS through GWT I'll send you a script that is adapted to Debian
  371. # [13:10] <hsivonen> gwicke: ok
  372. # [13:11] <hsivonen> I feel that I now have to try the optimizations that David didn't try before he proceeded with a new implementation
  373. # [13:11] <annevk> hsivonen: RT'd that from @WHATWG :)
  374. # [13:11] <hsivonen> annevk: good
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  376. # [13:16] <annevk> hmm
  377. # [13:16] <annevk> merging fullscreen and dialog
  378. # [13:16] <annevk> for styling anyway
  379. # [13:16] <annevk> yikes
  380. # [13:17] <hsivonen> annevk: unintended turn of events!
  381. # [13:18] <hsivonen> annevk: but it does make sense
  382. # [13:19] <annevk> does seem like there's plenty of overlap
  383. # [13:19] <annevk> at least for modal dialogs and fullscreen
  384. # [13:20] <hsivonen> annevk: foresee politics about modal dialogs being an HTML WG issues fullscreen having been discussed in the WHATWG
  385. # [13:22] <hsivonen> it's awesome how crufty the output is default sample document in http://buzzword.org.uk/2010/md2rdfa/
  386. # [13:25] <Ms2ger> annevk: foresee politics
  387. # [13:25] <Ms2ger> ftfy
  388. # [13:26] <gwicke> hsivonen: I get a lot of messages about annotations not resolving, like java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: nu.validator.htmlparser.annotation.Virtual
  389. # [13:26] <gwicke> but it still seems to work
  390. # [13:26] <hsivonen> gwicke: yeah
  391. # [13:26] <gwicke> ;)
  392. # [13:26] <hsivonen> gwicke: I don't know why the GWT compiler fails to find those
  393. # [13:27] <gwicke> I am not of much help on Java or GWT unfortunately
  394. # [13:30] <gwicke> I added a wildcard classpath (/usr/share/java/*) to make it work, not sure if that is considered good form
  395. # [13:31] <hsivonen> gwicke: make it work in what sense?
  396. # [13:32] <gwicke> to make it find the classes it needs
  397. # [13:32] <hsivonen> gwicke: and the compilation result worked?
  398. # [13:32] <gwicke> libcommons-collections3 and the gwt classes
  399. # [13:32] <gwicke> yes
  400. # [13:32] <hsivonen> gwicke: interesting
  401. # [13:32] <gwicke> will get you a link to pastebin in a moment
  402. # [13:33] <gwicke> http://pastebin.com/rn1csAcq
  403. # [13:33] <hsivonen> there's supposed to be enough stuff under super/ to cover for JDK classes that aren't in GWT
  404. # [13:34] <hsivonen> gwicke: ok. if you include /usr/share/java, distributing the compilation result might violate the license of your JDK impl. YMMV. IANAL.
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  406. # [13:35] <gwicke> hrm..
  407. # [13:35] <gwicke> can try to narrow it down
  408. # [13:41] <gwicke> getting java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/tools/ant/types/ZipScanner
  409. # [13:45] <gwicke> This works without wildcard on Debian unstable: http://pastebin.com/p6bMjmpP
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  413. # [13:59] <hsivonen> gwicke: hmm. that must be requirement for the GWT compiler itself
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  415. # [14:01] <gwicke> might be- I am not using the prescribed build setup for GWT, which might include additional paths. The gwt packages only list the jre as dependencies.
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  417. # [14:04] <hsivonen> gwicke: I might goofed when I included GWT compiler input in -cp
  418. # [14:04] <hsivonen> might have goofed
  419. # [14:04] <hsivonen> interesting developments around schema.org: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-data-tf/2011Nov/0117.html
  420. # [14:09] <gwicke> hsivonen: if you mean the $APPDIR/* bits, then those seem to be needed
  421. # [14:09] <gwicke> at least it fails to compile if I remove them
  422. # [14:13] <hsivonen> gwicke: there might be some other way to pass those to the compiler only so that the VM running the compiler doesn't see them
  423. # [14:14] <gwicke> ok, will let you know if I find something
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  435. # [15:03] <Ms2ger> Btw, Opera guys: not nice that you didn't include a -moz-double-rainbow line
  436. # [15:04] * miketaylr files a bug
  437. # [15:05] <zcorpan> we can't know what syntax you're using if it's not supported yet
  438. # [15:06] <hsivonen> do I recall correctly that -webkit-border-radius matched what got standardized?
  439. # [15:11] <annevk> Ms2ger: doesn't matter, we did it first
  440. # [15:11] * hsivonen is about to publish a blog post about that
  441. # [15:11] <Ms2ger> annevk++
  442. # [15:11] * annevk thought we were going to keep it a secret easter egg
  443. # [15:11] <hsivonen> prefixes--
  444. # [15:12] <annevk> hsivonen: I think what got standardized was something I made up that matched exactly nobody
  445. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> annevk, blame karlcow
  446. # [15:12] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  447. # [15:12] <annevk> I made something up, refined by fantasai, that allowed you to set all longhands using just border-radius
  448. # [15:12] <annevk> nobody had that
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  453. # [15:24] * karlcow is waiting for a disco-ball extension with rotation speed and shyniness
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  460. # [15:39] <hsivonen> I blogged about vendor prefixes: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/vendor-prefixes/
  461. # [15:42] <annevk> karlcow: fyi, Mozilla is implementing the same API
  462. # [15:42] <annevk> karlcow: I think the mutation stuff is quite settled now
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  467. # [15:49] <karlcow> annevk: context? same API?
  468. # [15:51] <astearns> hsivonen: "I think browser vendors should adding more prefixed CSS features" needs a word
  469. # [15:53] <jgraham> "burn in hell for" is four words
  470. # [15:53] <jgraham> </joke>
  471. # [15:53] <hsivonen> astearns: thanks. fixed
  472. # [15:54] <karlcow> "The situation is harmful for Firefox for mobile, Opera Mobile and IE on Windows Phone. Yet, Mozilla, Opera and Microsoft are going along with the prefixing scheme. At one point, Microsoft planned to implement a -webkit-CSS feature for IE on Windows Phone, but people out of principle told them not to and they backed down."
  473. # [15:54] <karlcow> I think we should all implement in our engines a -*- and been done with it. and let the mess happens
  474. # [15:56] <annevk> karlcow: DOM mutations
  475. # [15:57] <karlcow> Aaaaaah
  476. # [15:57] <karlcow> in "The specification contains currently a placeholder on how Mutation Events are implemented in Chrome but this is likely to change again."
  477. # [15:57] <karlcow> ok fixing
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  479. # [15:59] <karlcow> thanks annevk
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  486. # [16:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: "experimetal"
  487. # [16:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: But generally very nice article
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  496. # [16:16] <gsnedders> hsivonen: You are aware we support one -apple- feature relating to widgets?
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  499. # [16:18] <hsivonen> gsnedders: no, not aware until now
  500. # [16:18] <gsnedders> -apple-dashboard-region
  501. # [16:19] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Mar/att-0007/css_properties.txt was current
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  507. # [16:21] <gsnedders> Note also -xv- (XHTML Voice) and -wap- (WAP).
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  511. # [16:31] <gsnedders> Also interesting is that Apple are shipping Speex in iOS now. Though the audio side has never been that interesting, given the number of major companies already shipping Vorbis.
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  513. # [16:35] <zewt> wow, ff8's addon thing on update is 10x clunkier now
  514. # [16:38] <jgraham> zewt: ?
  515. # [16:38] <zewt> much less streamlined than it used to be
  516. # [16:39] <jgraham> Maybe I don't actually have any addons in my firefox installs but I don't remember noticing that they regressed the UI
  517. # [16:39] <zewt> extension state list made me go woah-way-too-much-info, so i'd expect typical users to give up and just mash "ok"
  518. # [16:45] <zewt> heh err
  519. # [16:45] <zewt> ff8: BlobBuilder now has a getFile() method that returns the content of the blob as a file.
  520. # [16:45] <zewt> ... why?
  521. # [16:46] <zewt> guess i should bring that up in the blob ctor thread (probably implies a File ctor too)
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  523. # [16:54] <Ms2ger> karlcow, X-Forwaded-For?
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  529. # [17:01] <karlcow> Ms2ger: I typoed?
  530. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> Yep
  531. # [17:01] <karlcow> ah
  532. # [17:01] <karlcow> ForwaRded
  533. # [17:01] <karlcow> heh
  534. # [17:01] <karlcow> fixing
  535. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> Ta
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  537. # [17:04] <karlcow> ok in the process of being published again.
  538. # [17:04] <karlcow> Thanks Ms2ger
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  545. # [17:10] <annevk> so did Mozilla ship BlobBuilder prefixed?
  546. # [17:10] * annevk hides
  547. # [17:10] <Ms2ger> We may have
  548. # [17:11] <Ms2ger> annevk, we did
  549. # [17:11] <JonathanNeal> good morning :)
  550. # [17:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: prolly a good thing :)
  551. # [17:12] * annevk will read hsivonen's post later; hopes there's new words
  552. # [17:15] <zcorpan> i'm glad css prefixes didn't end up using namespace URLs at least
  553. # [17:15] <JonathanNeal> I like vendor prefixes, they helped get us this far.
  554. # [17:16] <JonathanNeal> we couldn't have done it waiting around for the spec, the web exists in a state of experiment, but none of that will matter in two years when most browsers update themselves.
  555. # [17:16] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Everyone loves nothing working on non-webkit mobile browsers
  556. # [17:17] <JonathanNeal> that's the real complaint, isn't it.
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  558. # [17:17] <jgraham> Well partially yes
  559. # [17:17] * Ms2ger hasn't been convinced that implementing webkit's prefixed junk is the right solution
  560. # [17:18] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: We have enough problems on desktop too
  561. # [17:18] * lunetics is now known as Druide_
  562. # [17:18] <jgraham> But the underlying issue is that "best viewed in X browser" wasn't good when it was spelled out on the homepage
  563. # [17:18] <jgraham> It isn't better because it is buried in the CSS
  564. # [17:18] <JonathanNeal> http://css3please.com/ - afaik it has had linear-gradient sitting there.
  565. # [17:19] <JonathanNeal> So anyone using this service, not modifying the code, has just been waiting for other browsers to catch up to what seems to be the standard.
  566. # [17:19] <JonathanNeal> in the meantime, they're benefit from the browsers that do support the feature.
  567. # [17:20] <JonathanNeal> why is benefiting from the early adoption of a browser a bad thing? if the other browsers can't keep up, that seems less webkit's fault and less the author's fault. there was a time a lot of us rolled our eyes because opera had yet to add gradients.
  568. # [17:21] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: did you read the blog post?
  569. # [17:21] <JonathanNeal> the entire thing
  570. # [17:22] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: The point is not to make people wait
  571. # [17:22] <zcorpan> the problem is with people using only -webkit- and then not updating their pages, then when other browsers implement the feature, it still doesn't work in existing content that uses a single prefix
  572. # [17:22] <JonathanNeal> yea, but i agree with the first counter argument at least.
  573. # [17:22] <jgraham> The point is to solidify around what people ship rather than having a harmful committee-driven Process
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  575. # [17:24] <JonathanNeal> hmm, i thought whatwg proved you could work around the harmful committee-driven process.
  576. # [17:24] <Philip`> Experimental features should have timebomb prefixes, like "-moz-expires20120515-foo" which will stop working in Mozilla browsers after the given date, to force authors to update their pages to the standard which should have been released by that time
  577. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> Philip`, yeah, it's called -moz-
  578. # [17:26] <jgraham> Someone suggested making any use of experimental features add a red norification bar to the page
  579. # [17:26] <jgraham> I can't see Google going for it though
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  581. # [17:28] <Philip`> Ms2ger: That doesn't make it clear to authors that it'll stop working in the near future, so they'll complain if it ever gets removed, so it'll probably never get removed
  582. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> That doesn't follow
  583. # [17:29] <JonathanNeal> i'm also not crazy about the original webkit gradient implementation.
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  586. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> AFAIK, Mozilla has removed support for all the prefixed stuff some time after implementing the unprefixed version
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  588. # [17:30] <JonathanNeal> it's really up to the vendors to remove their own prefixes.
  589. # [17:31] <JonathanNeal> including webkit
  590. # [17:31] <Ms2ger> Well, relying on webkit to do what's good for the web...
  591. # [17:31] <JonathanNeal> it really seems like folks are upset webkit is doing so much and it is being adopted so widely.
  592. # [17:32] <gsnedders> I don't think people mind WebKit doing so much: it's when you get so many websites including only webkit prefixes that it hurts other browsers.
  593. # [17:33] <gsnedders> Heck, it's still fairly painful for Opera with border-radius which we've been shipping for years, lots of new content only include -webkit- and -moz- prefixes.
  594. # [17:33] <JonathanNeal> so, we're not blaming webkit for that, right?
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  597. # [17:33] <Philip`> People got upset when Microsoft was doing so much (e.g. ActiveX, and DX filters in CSS, and expression(), etc, which wouldn't really work with any other browser implementation) and it got adopted somewhat widely
  598. # [17:33] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders: that surprises me, because authors should prefer to use the prefixless border-radius.
  599. # [17:34] <miketaylr> but they don't
  600. # [17:34] <gsnedders> I don't think there's really that much blame directed at WebKit.
  601. # [17:34] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: They don't. Most articles on the web talk only about -webkit- and -moz-.
  602. # [17:34] <Philip`> JonathanNeal: I imagine authors use whatever they read in the blog post written about the features in 2006 and not updated since
  603. # [17:34] <JonathanNeal> Philip`: the other browsers came up with a better way to do it, didn't they?
  604. # [17:34] * miketaylr had an issue yesterday with orkut.com with only -moz-border-radius and -webkit-border-radius
  605. # [17:34] <JonathanNeal> also, isn't webkits code open, anyone can see how they do it, very unlike ms
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  607. # [17:35] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: Just having the source doesn't mean you can instantly dive in and understand it.
  608. # [17:35] <miketaylr> how does having access to source code help me have a less crappy experience on mobile gmail?
  609. # [17:35] <JonathanNeal> well, the worst thing i see happening that could be the browsers fault is not dumping the old prefixes.
  610. # [17:35] <gsnedders> Heck, even with open source products most people just black-box reverse engineer them. It tends to be quicker.
  611. # [17:36] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: And they're not going to dump them when huge amounts of content rely upon them.
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  614. # [17:37] <JonathanNeal> so your solution is to allow old implementations to exist on the web
  615. # [17:37] <JonathanNeal> but vendor-prefix-less?
  616. # [17:38] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: I never gave a solution.
  617. # [17:38] <jgraham> There are two situations
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  620. # [17:38] <jgraham> a) there is not enough content to have any compat implication
  621. # [17:38] <Ms2ger> Philip`, please do reply to http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14421 :)
  622. # [17:38] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  623. # [17:38] <jgraham> b) there is enough content to have a compat implication
  624. # [17:39] <jgraham> In case a) there is no problem
  625. # [17:39] <JonathanNeal> what is enough content?
  626. # [17:39] <jgraham> In case b) we currently have the situation where that content will typically remain broken in non-first0implementor browsers forever
  627. # [17:39] <zewt> for one thing, you can't talk about css vendor prefixes and javascript vendor prefixes together--they're separate beasts and the practical annoyance is very different
  628. # [17:39] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Maybe you should remind me in a morning (UTC), then I might avoid other distractions and spend the day dealing with my backlog of canvas things :-)
  629. # [17:40] <gsnedders> Did someone not have a blog-post recently about breaking the web?
  630. # [17:40] <zewt> (you can easily wrap it away in the JS case, eliminating a large portion of the annoyance)
  631. # [17:40] <Ms2ger> Philip`, that would involve me getting up early, no?
  632. # [17:40] <jgraham> The alternative for case b) is to work out how to evolve the API whilst allowing other browsers to render the legacy content
  633. # [17:40] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Or going to bed later than me, so I'll see it when I wake up
  634. # [17:41] <Philip`> I suppose I could always try to be less disorganised with my life, but that sounds like hard work
  635. # [17:41] <zewt> well, of course early implementations should never have no prefix--whether it's a vendor prefix or a generic one
  636. # [17:41] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: you could give users the ability to read the other prefixes
  637. # [17:41] <Ms2ger> Heh
  638. # [17:41] <JonathanNeal> you could have a switch "drop vendor prefixes"
  639. # [17:41] <JonathanNeal> or authors, rather.
  640. # [17:41] <JonathanNeal> in their css
  641. # [17:41] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: I don't understand what that would help with
  642. # [17:41] <tantek> good morning, I'm at the W3Conf in Seattle/Redmond. Any other whatwg'ers here?
  643. # [17:42] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: with the switch on, browsers are allowed to read other vendor prefixed css
  644. # [17:42] <jgraham> Why would we want to let *authors* choose?
  645. # [17:42] <miketaylr> when would a user not want that on?
  646. # [17:42] <jgraham> The whole point is that authors can't be trusted with prefixes
  647. # [17:43] <tantek> channel is irc://irc.w3.org:6665/w3conf
  648. # [17:43] <jgraham> Because they never fulfil the "don't use this for stuff you don't mind breaking or promise to keep up to date forever" part of the contract
  649. # [17:43] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: well, then let browsers read everybody's prefixes.
  650. # [17:43] <JonathanNeal> i don't see harm in that either
  651. # [17:43] <jgraham> OK
  652. # [17:43] <JonathanNeal> but i wouldn't drop the prefixes.
  653. # [17:43] <jgraham> Then why not s/-whatever-//
  654. # [17:44] <jgraham> if browsers can read them all anyway
  655. # [17:44] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: they don't read them all anyway, yet.
  656. # [17:44] <JonathanNeal> thus http://lea.verou.me/prefixfree/
  657. # [17:46] * Joins: Margle (~Margle@41-133-196-174.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  658. # [17:46] <jgraham> I know they don't
  659. # [17:47] <jgraham> But what is the advantage of everyone reading -webkit-foo compared to dropping the -webkit- part?
  660. # [17:47] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: -webkit-gradient(linear, left top, left bottom, from(#444444), to(#999999));
  661. # [17:47] <JonathanNeal> versus -webkit-linear-gradient(top, #444444, #999999);
  662. # [17:48] * Joins: jarek__ (~jarek@bdb74.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  663. # [17:48] <JonathanNeal> even webkit tweaked things, mind you they changed the property name a little, but who's to say a browser should be left to get it right.
  664. # [17:49] <JonathanNeal> as features become more complicated, we won't want five versions sitting on the same property value.
  665. # [17:49] <JonathanNeal> i'll admit that another argument for vendor prefixing is writing valid non-prefixed code and no one even cares about valid css
  666. # [17:50] <JonathanNeal> i throw in *ie hacks all the time anyway
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  668. # [17:50] <JonathanNeal> the article never mentioned being "valid"
  669. # [17:51] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: As far as I can tell what you are proposing would require everyone to support every syntax variation for all eternity
  670. # [17:52] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  671. # [17:52] <JonathanNeal> i'm probing the ideas
  672. # [17:52] <JonathanNeal> hopefully not in vain
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  674. # [17:53] <karlcow> hmm reading the log
  675. # [17:53] <karlcow> and enjoying the dated extension
  676. # [17:53] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@76.14.70.183)
  677. # [17:53] <karlcow> -vendor-YYYYMMDD-
  678. # [17:53] * karlcow has a big smile :p
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  680. # [17:54] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
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  683. # [17:55] * miketaylr would screw it up as -vendor-MMDDYYYY-
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  685. # [17:55] <Philip`> -vendor-YYYY-MM-DD-, then
  686. # [17:55] <jgraham> -vendor-I-realise-I-am-a-bad-person-for-doing-this-and-will-probably-have-to-say-hail-Marys-or-something-and-anyway-this-prefix-will-expire-on-26-11-2011-and-hey-youre-using-less-or-sass-and-not-reading-this-arent-you-dammit-
  687. # [17:55] <miketaylr> mmm dashes
  688. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> Throw in some underscores
  689. # [17:57] <Philip`> Then someone will write an article saying "to future-proof your site, you should write <style>#foo { -moz-2012-01-01-foo: ...; -moz-2012-01-02-foo: ...; -moz-2012-01-03-foo: ...; ... }</style>"
  690. # [17:57] <karlcow> -vendor-⌚- tick tick
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  692. # [17:57] <Philip`> so we'd need to put a nonce in there too
  693. # [17:59] <miketaylr> http://twitter.com/#!/chriseppstein/status/136485985029603328
  694. # [17:59] <miketaylr> heh
  695. # [18:01] <miketaylr> of course, if you're going to use a tool to get from foo to vendor-foo anyways, might as well kill vendor-foo
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  699. # [18:03] <tantek> yeah that's about right
  700. # [18:03] <tantek> such tools obscure the risk that web designers are taking that the properties will change (hint: they do)
  701. # [18:03] * Joins: bensmithett (~bensmithe@115.146.71.1)
  702. # [18:03] <tantek> so if you use such tools, get ready for your sites to break more often and your clients to get pissed.
  703. # [18:04] <jgraham> That argument is isomorphic to "the tools will save us"
  704. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> Please describe the isomorphism in detail.
  705. # [18:04] <JonathanNeal> so perhaps browsers should natively do what prefixfree does for them?
  706. # [18:05] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Happily this isn't an exam so I can ignore you :)
  707. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> :<
  708. # [18:05] <JonathanNeal> except i still don't like the idea of having multiple ways of doing the same thing on a single property.
  709. # [18:05] <jgraham> (I mean Chris Eppstein's argument in case that wasn't obvious)
  710. # [18:06] <Philip`> That "that is a 'the tools will save us' argument" argument seems to rely on an assumption that tools will never save us in any situation and we don't even need to consider the actual situation in hand, which seems less reasonable than merely assuming tools won't save us in every situation and so we ought to examine the specific cases
  711. # [18:07] <jgraham> Philip`: Think of it as an attempt to shift the burden of proof
  712. # [18:07] <JonathanNeal> at least you're not blaming webkit
  713. # [18:08] * Ms2ger blames webkit
  714. # [18:08] <jgraham> In this case the burden of proof seems to be firmly with the people claiming that prefixes aren't a problem because tools
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  716. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> You missed some words there
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  718. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> Maybe "they are"
  719. # [18:08] * jgraham wishes he knew what should be added to "because tools" but twitter
  720. # [18:08] <JonathanNeal> miketaylr: as an aside, looking at the kindle stats revealed how much of a not-ipad killer it was going to be.
  721. # [18:09] <JonathanNeal> *kindle fire
  722. # [18:09] <JonathanNeal> i can't remember if the price or the resolution were lower. :P
  723. # [18:10] <tantek> prefixes are for experimentation and implementation/designer feedback. not for production.
  724. # [18:10] <tantek> if you depend on prefixed properties for production work, you bear the resulting risk/instability.
  725. # [18:10] <JonathanNeal> tantek: so shame on me for using them in production?
  726. # [18:10] <JonathanNeal> i thought it's my risk to take..
  727. # [18:10] <miketaylr> but in practice, it's the users who take on the risk
  728. # [18:10] <miketaylr> the author finishes their site, moves on to the next one
  729. # [18:10] <JonathanNeal> what risk?
  730. # [18:10] <JonathanNeal> of not getting rounded edges?
  731. # [18:11] <JonathanNeal> that's the risk i was taking
  732. # [18:11] <miketaylr> layout?
  733. # [18:11] <JonathanNeal> the example was used earlier regarding border radius, so the risk is "you might not get rounded edges on this/these boxes".
  734. # [18:12] <jgraham> The risk of the site looking crappier or, in some cases not working at all
  735. # [18:12] <jgraham> Arguably it is the browser vendor who actually take the risks
  736. # [18:12] <JonathanNeal> i think anyone using a prefix inherently knows they are saying "only in"
  737. # [18:12] <jgraham> Typically the user can choose to use a different browser
  738. # [18:12] <zewt> except welcome to the real world
  739. # [18:12] <jgraham> Although of course they may have strong reasons not to
  740. # [18:13] <JonathanNeal> so when i wrote "-moz-border-radius" a few years ago, i knew i was only giving that experience to firefox at the time.
  741. # [18:13] <zewt> your users didn't
  742. # [18:14] <tantek> JonathanNeal - yes - your tradeoff to make, but as an author/designer, you bear the responsibility, not the tools.
  743. # [18:14] <JonathanNeal> of course, my IE users never saw them.
  744. # [18:14] <zewt> you mean your FF users suddenly saw that they went away after a (theoretical) upgrade changed/removed it
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  746. # [18:15] <JonathanNeal> zewt: thank goodness we don't live in an era that fears progressive enhancement, otherwise they could have said "no, no border radius in firefox until ie has it"
  747. # [18:15] <JonathanNeal> zewt: had i been irresponsible, then yes, they may have lost the rounded edges later.
  748. # [18:16] <karlcow> JonathanNeal: simple example with no-damages on user experience do not help to solve the issue we are discussing.
  749. # [18:16] <zewt> the advantage of prefixes, as i've always seen them, is that they localize the oddities of that implementation, so other vendors don't have to worry about them, and so the "final" API isn't bound down by them (for some never-actually-existing value of "final", heh)
  750. # [18:16] <JonathanNeal> zewt: yes
  751. # [18:16] <karlcow> the article from hsivonen was about vendor extension. Period. Be in CSS, DOM, HTTP etc.
  752. # [18:16] <JonathanNeal> karlcow: what would you rather discuss? wasn't border-radius a valid example earlier?
  753. # [18:17] <zewt> JonathanNeal: this isn't "progressive enhancement", it's progressive deenhancement, where users actively see features going *away* as they upgrade
  754. # [18:17] <karlcow> If your site relies heavily on CSS transition for example, it will fall apart in other browsers.
  755. # [18:17] <karlcow> border-radius is not a valid example
  756. # [18:17] <JonathanNeal> okay so only things that affect the UI
  757. # [18:17] <JonathanNeal> eg transitions and transforms?
  758. # [18:18] <JonathanNeal> display modes
  759. # [18:18] <karlcow> except if the prose in your page says: Click on this button when the box is rounded and you will be credited of 10 dollars
  760. # [18:18] <karlcow> if you see what I mean
  761. # [18:18] <karlcow> consequences for User experiences
  762. # [18:19] <JonathanNeal> well, my users were happy, especially the ones who got the better experience
  763. # [18:20] <karlcow> and for one careful designer who will deploy them elegantly, there are thousands more who will not. And the millions of users depend on these thousands.
  764. # [18:20] <JonathanNeal> later i added the webkit-border-radius and later i dropped both for border-radius. but i understand that point is now void as you accept it isn't a problem.
  765. # [18:20] <zewt> the main problem i see with prefixes, in practice today, is that most web apis don't gravitate towards something "final" and fixed anymore
  766. # [18:20] <zewt> so under traditional prefixing, those apis just stay prefixed permanently, which is silly
  767. # [18:20] <JonathanNeal> zewt: or is it that browsers just develop new technologies faster.
  768. # [18:21] <JonathanNeal> then form the csswg
  769. # [18:21] <zewt> no, it's that most specs aren't aiming towards "finalize everything, set it in stone and head towards REC", they just loop between WD/LC forever (and that's okay)
  770. # [18:22] <zewt> so the basic notion of "we'll remove the prefix when it's finalized" breaks down
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  773. # [18:23] <JonathanNeal> so why won't it finalize?
  774. # [18:23] <zewt> it seems to become something more like "we'll remove the prefix when it seems like the API has mostly settled down, even though it's not final", at least for JS APIs (the CSS side I'm not sure)--but that's a lot fuzzier
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  776. # [18:23] <JonathanNeal> that seems more the css spec writers fault.
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  778. # [18:25] <zewt> perhaps css specs are more able to be finalized than js APIs; I don't know
  779. # [18:26] <JonathanNeal> so now it's not about css vendor prefixes anymore?
  780. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> No
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  785. # [18:27] <zewt> power cycle: go
  786. # [18:28] <JonathanNeal> future of the web: go: http://www.hurtownia-kontakt.pl/
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  788. # [18:29] <JonathanNeal> well, drop the prefixes, it will only make my life easier, i suppose.
  789. # [18:29] <zewt> i don't know if the reason css prefixes stick around too long is for similar reasons as with JS APIs.
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  791. # [18:30] <JonathanNeal> i don't relate the two
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  795. # [18:30] <JonathanNeal> more people theme than write functionality, and when they write functionality, they rarely step into something vendor prefixes.
  796. # [18:30] <JonathanNeal> *prefixed
  797. # [18:32] <zewt> heh ff8 upgrade losing random cookies, it seems
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  801. # [18:36] <JonathanNeal> Well, we can drop the prefixes on our own servers and use something like prefixfree, while we wait for browsers to drop the vendor prefixes, if that is what you are suggesting.
  802. # [18:36] <zewt> (i'm not suggesting anything)
  803. # [18:37] <zewt> if i have any suggestion, it's that people stop saying "vendor prefixes", and clearly say "css prefixes" or "api prefixes"
  804. # [18:38] <zewt> (eg. this is mostly about css prefixes, yet this has found its way to the WebGL list, and people there already seem to not understand prefixes badly enough that this could confuse them)
  805. # [18:39] <JonathanNeal> well, we're using the terminology from the original blogpost.
  806. # [18:39] <JonathanNeal> and they are commonly referred to as vendor prefixes.
  807. # [18:39] <zewt> and as i just said, "vendor prefixes" includes both CSS and scripting, so people should be more clear than that if they mean one in the other in particular
  808. # [18:41] <zewt> (perhaps the argument is meant to apply to scripting prefixes too; i havn't had time to read the whole thing, but on a quick look it doesn't seem to be)
  809. # [18:41] <JonathanNeal> vendor css prefixes, vcssps
  810. # [18:41] <JonathanNeal> or is it css vendor prefixes?
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  865. # [20:33] <roc> hsivonen: so, what kind of response did you get?
  866. # [20:36] <hsivonen> roc: the vast, vast majority of commenters agree
  867. # [20:37] <hsivonen> roc: a couple asked about -draft- prefix (I should have written a pre-emptive rebuttal for that)
  868. # [20:37] <roc> where's this feedback?
  869. # [20:38] <hsivonen> roc: twitter @mentions
  870. # [20:38] <hsivonen> roc: so not very nyanced
  871. # [20:38] <Rik`> yes, -draft- will be misspelled -drat- :)
  872. # [20:39] <hsivonen> roc: Tab seemed to suggest adding ways to work around the problem instead of fixing the problem, though the point might have been lost in a tweet
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  874. # [20:43] <hsivonen> s/nyanced/nuanced/
  875. # [20:43] * hsivonen apparently can't spell
  876. # [20:43] <smedero> I assumed you were referring to a nyan-cat influenced version of nuanced
  877. # [20:44] * Parts: brucel (~brucel@cpc5-smal11-2-0-cust151.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
  878. # [20:44] * Quits: bga_ (~bga@ppp78-37-222-47.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  879. # [20:45] <timeless> hsivonen: you're just thinking in suomi
  880. # [20:45] <timeless> or trying to type that way
  881. # [20:46] <hsivonen> timeless: you've diagnosed the problem correctly
  882. # [20:47] <timeless> (this is why finns have trouble in the real world, they convert all foreign language words into Finnish spelling based on Finnish pronunciation)
  883. # [20:47] <timeless> otoh, you're doing much better than most in that you're catching your mistakes :)
  884. # [20:47] * timeless still remembers Micorophones + Mirophones @ Nokia
  885. # [20:48] <timeless> (actually, those made me proud of my Finnish coworkers, even they winced at the site of those on big projected slides in our main auditorium)
  886. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> s/site/sight/
  887. # [20:49] <hsivonen> timeless: the way the use the Finnish writing system to one's advantage is to memorize the *correct* foreign spellings by thinking about them as pronounced by Finnish text-to-speech rules
  888. # [20:49] <timeless> Ms2ger: eep, oops
  889. # [20:49] <hsivonen> hehe
  890. # [20:49] <roc> hsivonen: I'm worried about reducing the ability of authors to know that a feature is experimental or engine-specific, or our ability to explain it to them. I wish there was as good a way to do that without prefixes, but I can't think of one.
  891. # [20:50] * Joins: tantek-ipod (~tantek@66-87-7-42.pools.spcsdns.net)
  892. # [20:50] <hsivonen> roc: it doesn't matter. even if authors know a feature is experimental or engine-specific, they will still use it if it solves their client's problem right now
  893. # [20:51] <Rik`> ship behind a pref?
  894. # [20:51] <hsivonen> roc: the only true way to keep stuff experimental is not to ship it in the release channel so that it can't solve the client's problem right now
  895. # [20:51] <roc> hsivonen: there is often more than one way to solve a problem
  896. # [20:52] <hsivonen> Rik`: when we did that with the HTML parser, people started talking about flipping the pref on forums that were uncomfortably visible
  897. # [20:52] <Rik`> whatever the forum, it's still a small amount of users
  898. # [20:53] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-7-42.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  899. # [20:53] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  900. # [20:53] <roc> I think prefs are OK because most users aren't going to flip any prefs
  901. # [20:53] <timeless> roc: devs will use the first way they find that solves their problem
  902. # [20:53] <timeless> and they will demand users flip prefs
  903. # [20:53] <timeless> we've seen really bad advice on flipping prefs
  904. # [20:54] <hsivonen> I'm worried that they ask users to flip prefs, yes
  905. # [20:54] <timeless> if you're going to do pref flipping, at least require the pref be per domain
  906. # [20:54] <timeless> so that you don't have one site randomly cause behavior changes to another site the user visits
  907. # [20:54] <hsivonen> EMC told their extranet users to flip the HTML5 parser pref
  908. # [20:54] <hsivonen> (to off)
  909. # [20:54] <timeless> lol
  910. # [20:54] <roc> I don't think we've ever seen more than 10% of Firefox users flip any given pref
  911. # [20:55] <timeless> you don't think 10% of firefox users is a bad number?
  912. # [20:55] <roc> I don't think it's enough for sites to depend on the pref being flipped
  913. # [20:57] <roc> "they will still use it if it solves their client's problem" ... well, some will. But some won't, and some will construct cross-browser fallbacks if they know to.
  914. # [20:57] <hsivonen> roc: those that will are Mozilla's, Opera's and Microsoft's problem
  915. # [20:58] <timeless> hsivonen: and Nokia's, and RIM's
  916. # [20:58] <timeless> at least you big guys get to do something about it
  917. # [20:58] <timeless> the rest of us just suffer
  918. # [21:00] * Joins: Areks|2 (~Areks@176.14.185.80)
  919. # [21:00] <roc> hsivonen: Understood. Making things worse for the others is what I'm concerned about.
  920. # [21:01] * Quits: Areks|2 (~Areks@176.14.185.80) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  921. # [21:01] <roc> in that there's costs to what you're proposing as well as benefits
  922. # [21:01] <hsivonen> roc: mozRequestAnimationFrame might already have made some things on the Web function less well for other browsers
  923. # [21:02] <hsivonen> roc: even when the other vendors have kept on the treadmill and implemented it with their prefix
  924. # [21:02] <hsivonen> roc: though the difference is probably non-obvious to users
  925. # [21:02] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  926. # [21:02] <hsivonen> roc: the stuff Mozilla has added lately makes the difference non-obvious when authors fall back to standard stuff
  927. # [21:02] <roc> wouldn't the other browsers just keep using timers?
  928. # [21:02] * Joins: Areks|2 (~Areks@89-178-81-128.broadband.corbina.ru)
  929. # [21:03] <hsivonen> roc: yes, so animations would be less efficient than in Firefox
  930. # [21:03] <hsivonen> roc: even if the vendor have done their homework
  931. # [21:03] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@95-26-164-46.broadband.corbina.ru) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  932. # [21:03] <roc> that's not making them function less well for other browesrs
  933. # [21:03] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@ip-118-90-36-154.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  934. # [21:03] <hsivonen> roc: well, either there's a benefit from mozRequestAnimationFrame or we wouldn't need the whole thing
  935. # [21:04] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-gwhzvyqontaftybj) (Quit: rniwa)
  936. # [21:04] <roc> I agree that we could have done better by making requestAnimationFrame unprefixed much earlier
  937. # [21:04] <timeless> fwiw, IRCCloud isn't particularly interested in spending time chasing mozWebSocket or whatever it is
  938. # [21:04] <hsivonen> roc: likewise, the new chunked XHR response types allow people to write code that uses less memory in Firefox even once the other vendors catch up
  939. # [21:04] <timeless> they might chase it eventually, or just wait for it to be unprefixed
  940. # [21:04] <timeless> (instead, they're using Flash, which otoh, in theory is portable)
  941. # [21:04] * timeless saw mozRequestAnimationFrame or perhaps the standardized one mentioned in a slide deck this week
  942. # [21:06] <roc> hsivonen: I totally agree that we should unprefix stuff much more aggressively
  943. # [21:06] <timeless> actually, it was https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.requestAnimationFrame
  944. # [21:06] <roc> in some cases, even as aggressively as "before shipping in a release"
  945. # [21:06] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla.vlan402.asr1.cdg3.gblx.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  946. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> There's no equivalent for PCRE's x option in JS, is there? Allowing you to write regexes where whitespace is ignored?
  947. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> So you can do multiline with comments, etc.?
  948. # [21:07] <timeless> AryehGregor: sounds right
  949. # [21:07] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@176.14.244.238)
  950. # [21:07] <timeless> you can use RegExp("hi" /*hi ... */ + "lo")
  951. # [21:08] <timeless> i guess that kinda depends on your definition of "no equivalent"
  952. # [21:08] <Philip`> You could write a regexp to strip whitespace and comments from regexps
  953. # [21:08] <timeless> if you're going to do that, you might as well do it my way..
  954. # [21:11] * Quits: Areks|2 (~Areks@89-178-81-128.broadband.corbina.ru) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  955. # [21:11] <hsivonen> roc: one reason why I think flagging non-standard feature has almost no value is that I view CSS features and APIs that one of the top engines create and authors adopt as features that haven't been standardized *yet*
  956. # [21:11] <hsivonen> roc: that is, I think nothing should stay in a state where it's both in use and non-standard
  957. # [21:12] <roc> Google and Microsoft buy usage
  958. # [21:13] <timeless> doesn't mozilla sponsor jQuery/jQuery-mobile like everyone else?
  959. # [21:13] * Joins: Areks|2 (~Areks@176.14.190.89)
  960. # [21:13] <hsivonen> well, there are cases where it makes sense to try to block bad stuff by not implementing
  961. # [21:13] <roc> I don't see how that's compatible with what you just said
  962. # [21:14] <Hixie> "buy usage"?
  963. # [21:14] <hsivonen> roc: it makes sense if there's an alternative that drives the thing that isn't implemented into a "not in use" category
  964. # [21:15] <roc> Hixie: spend money evangelizing features, or in many cases actually make cash payments to get people to use features
  965. # [21:15] <zewt> i'd expect that if you have to do that, something is wrong with the feature, heh
  966. # [21:15] <hsivonen> roc: anyway, I think vendor A shouldn't have to guess if a feature they launch is going to end up stonewalled by vendors B and C and therefore should have been prefixed from the beginning
  967. # [21:15] <roc> they don't have to guess
  968. # [21:15] <roc> we can communicate
  969. # [21:16] <hsivonen> roc: because if the feature that vendor A launches is one that B, C and D want to implement, everyone is better off by not having it prefixed
  970. # [21:16] <roc> totally agree
  971. # [21:16] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@176.14.244.238) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  972. # [21:16] <roc> I think we should go to the CSS WG right now with a list of features we want to unprefix today
  973. # [21:17] <timeless> hsivonen: how do you deal with breaking api changes in such a model?
  974. # [21:17] <hsivonen> roc: great
  975. # [21:17] <timeless> consider the disaster that is webSockets
  976. # [21:17] <hsivonen> timeless: you don't make breaking API changes when the API is used so much that the breakage would be too great
  977. # [21:17] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  978. # [21:17] <roc> websockets had breaking API changes because the protocol was totally insecure
  979. # [21:17] <hsivonen> timeless: that disaster is a "disaster" that's available through Java and Flash every day
  980. # [21:18] <zewt> roc: well, security fixes trump compatibility when the collision is unavoidable
  981. # [21:18] <hsivonen> websockets also had breaking changes because the IETF WG felt they could bikeshed it to no end
  982. # [21:18] <timeless> what hsivonen said
  983. # [21:18] <zewt> that doesn't really reduce the importance of compatibility, it's just something yet higher
  984. # [21:18] <timeless> fwiw, IRCCloud apparently only supports up to version X of Chrome and not later
  985. # [21:19] <timeless> (using WebSockets)
  986. # [21:19] <zewt> that sounds more like "doesn't work at all", since almost everyone autoupdates chrome
  987. # [21:19] <Hixie> roc: the websockets protocol wasn't insecure
  988. # [21:19] <timeless> zewt: i think it's the difference between Released and Canary or Dev
  989. # [21:19] <timeless> not certain
  990. # [21:19] * timeless doesn't know the versions of Chrome well enough to care
  991. # [21:19] <Hixie> roc: it was a variant that the ietf was considering that was insecure
  992. # [21:19] <roc> Hixie: it could be used to poison badly-written proxies, couldn't it?
  993. # [21:20] <Hixie> roc: but that was itself a breaking change from what had been specced
  994. # [21:20] <roc> maybe I'm misremembering, in which case, I stand corrected
  995. # [21:20] <Hixie> roc: as far as i am aware, what i specced couldn't.
  996. # [21:20] <roc> ok
  997. # [21:21] * Hixie is rather sad that we went to the ietf for websockets
  998. # [21:21] <hsivonen> pro tip to the IETF: just rubber-stamp what Hixie specs :-)
  999. # [21:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm sad about it, too
  1000. # [21:22] <timeless> anyway, yeah, it /looks/ like IRCCloud only supports Chrome 15 and not higher
  1001. # [21:22] <Hixie> they ended up adding a year and no new features to the technology, while simultanteously removing some security features, increasing the likelihood authors would get it wrong, and making it more complicated
  1002. # [21:22] <timeless> 15 is what normal people would have, with 16, 17 and 18 being things you could have (I have Canary/17)
  1003. # [21:22] <Hixie> anyway
  1004. # [21:22] <Hixie> that's water under the bridge
  1005. # [21:23] <zewt> periodically grumbling about water under the bridge is useful, to help remind people to build dams in the future :)
  1006. # [21:23] <timeless> heh
  1007. # [21:23] <timeless> the Chinese dams have been um.. interesting
  1008. # [21:24] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@95-26-1-107.broadband.corbina.ru)
  1009. # [21:24] <Hixie> roc: i'm curious about what vendor-prefixed vendor-specific technologies microsoft and google have been sponsoring before they are accepted by other vendors... do you just mean demos?
  1010. # [21:24] <roc> Web Audio API
  1011. # [21:25] * Quits: Areks|2 (~Areks@176.14.190.89) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1012. # [21:25] <hsivonen> roc: that one had particularly uncool naming
  1013. # [21:25] <roc> yeah, that was branding genius\
  1014. # [21:25] <hsivonen> roc: Firefox's API should have been promoted as both "Web" and "HTML5"
  1015. # [21:25] <roc> make sure to grab "Web <simplest possible noun> API" for your next feature
  1016. # [21:25] <zewt> is that the weird stuff google search uses for voice input? (which always worried me--how is it inputting sound with only a click, when I never gave it permission to do that)
  1017. # [21:26] <hsivonen> roc: at least our out-of-spec <menuitem> stuff is promoted as HTML5 content menus
  1018. # [21:26] * Quits: tantek-ipod (~tantek@66-87-7-42.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1019. # [21:26] <Hixie> roc: who's using that?
  1020. # [21:26] <TabAtkins> krijn: Please publish!
  1021. # [21:26] <Hixie> zewt: yeah, i don't understand why webkit doesn't do that for _every_ input control, that feature makes no sense to me
  1022. # [21:27] <hsivonen> *context menus
  1023. # [21:27] <zewt> i don't understand what security team would allow a feature to input sound without an explicit user confirmation
  1024. # [21:27] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@12.1.203.2) (Quit: shepazu)
  1025. # [21:27] <timeless> zewt: who needs security teams for features? :)
  1026. # [21:27] <zewt> cough
  1027. # [21:27] <timeless> omi, shiny
  1028. # [21:27] <timeless> push push push
  1029. # [21:27] <Hixie> zewt: it's just a flag you can set to enable voice input on a particular control, it's no more of a security risk than keyboard input
  1030. # [21:27] <roc> Hixie: it's not quite "in use" on the public Web for non-demos as far as I know, but Google's certainly trying to get it there, and it is in use in Chrome apps
  1031. # [21:27] <zewt> let's just turn on filesystem api for C:\ and be done with it :P
  1032. # [21:27] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@12.1.203.2) (Quit: tantek)
  1033. # [21:28] * Quits: smedero (~smedero@12.1.203.2) (Quit: smedero)
  1034. # [21:28] <timeless> zewt: the Linux people will say "sure, go ahead, we don't have a C:!"
  1035. # [21:28] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@66-87-0-208.pools.spcsdns.net)
  1036. # [21:28] <zewt> Hixie: of course it is, i don't randomly type sensitive information into a webpage, but nobody is going to realize that everything being said in the room is being recorded
  1037. # [21:28] <Hixie> roc: well chrome apps using a chrome api is like firefox extensions using xbl or xul, doesn't seem a huge deal. and having use in demos seems a positive thing.
  1038. # [21:29] <zewt> i don't know if that API is globally enabled or whitelisted to google.com or what
  1039. # [21:29] <Hixie> zewt: are we talking about the same feature? i'm not aware of anything that does what you describe.
  1040. # [21:29] <zewt> Hixie: the mic button on the google.com search page
  1041. # [21:29] <zewt> i don't know what the API is like under the hood, if it's possible to mask the voice input overlay in any way, etc
  1042. # [21:29] <Hixie> zewt: that feature only allows the user to use the mic instead of the keyboard to insert text into a form control, the page doesn't get any of the audio, only the text
  1043. # [21:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think -webkit-CSS demos are hurting Firefox when Firefox implements the same features as -moz-CSS
  1044. # [21:29] <roc> If you look at people's notes from this conference http://www.newgameconf.com/ there is no sense that the Google evangelists were portraying Web Audio API as a non-standard experiment
  1045. # [21:30] <Hixie> zewt: plus it's opt-in, the mic isn't even on until the user clicks the mic icon
  1046. # [21:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think prefixes are a terrible idea, been saying so for ages
  1047. # [21:30] <timeless> zewt: it probably uses flash in some cases :)
  1048. # [21:30] <zewt> Hixie: that seems of less use, then, but okay
  1049. # [21:30] <zewt> roc: i wouldn't expect someone calling an api "web audio api" to do such a thing :P
  1050. # [21:31] <Hixie> roc: that's certainly unfortunate, but then it _is_ being developed in a w3c wg, no?
  1051. # [21:31] <timeless> roc: gah, that site's design requires webfonts in order not to render badly
  1052. # [21:31] <roc> Anyway, I don't want to bash Microsoft and Google about this. The point is that usage can be and is bought. Every time Microsoft releases a new platform they have tons of apps built by Microsoft dollars. Microsoft paid NBC to stream the Olympics over Silverlight. That sort of thing.
  1053. # [21:32] <zewt> roc: does MS really do that for non-proprietary tech?
  1054. # [21:32] <roc> so making decisions based on observed "usage" could just give control to people who can do that
  1055. # [21:32] <zewt> after all, if an API is open and implemented and useful, you don't really *have* to do that
  1056. # [21:32] <Hixie> well, silverlight was a platform they wanted to have win, i think it's pretty reasonable if you're going to have a vendor-specific tech to try to make it succeed :-)
  1057. # [21:33] <Hixie> not that a vendor-specific tech is imho a good thing, but that's a separate issue
  1058. # [21:33] <Hixie> we can hardly claim it's unfair for a company to try to compete
  1059. # [21:33] <Hixie> even if what they're competing with is vendor-neutral
  1060. # [21:33] <Hixie> competition makes us stronger
  1061. # [21:33] <roc> I don't see why they wouldn't do the same for their extensions to the Web
  1062. # [21:33] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@95-26-1-107.broadband.corbina.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1063. # [21:33] <zewt> competition sometimes makes us stronger; it doesn't always work out that way in the end :)
  1064. # [21:33] * Joins: tantek-ipod (~tantek@66-87-7-235.pools.spcsdns.net)
  1065. # [21:34] <zewt> not that that makes any difference to what we're doing
  1066. # [21:34] * hsivonen has to step away from the computer
  1067. # [21:34] <Philip`> Surely competition only makes you stronger if the competition loses, which isn't a certainty
  1068. # [21:35] <zewt> philip: unfortunately, the more common end result is nobody "wins" and tech is fragmented, which means everyone loses
  1069. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> I think that prefixes are still a good thing for the web. What is bad is that (a) features stay prefixed for too long, and (b) CSS doesn't have a good way to abstract over prefixes, unlike JS.
  1070. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> We can fix (a) by pushing harder on the CSSWG to not bikeshed the hell out of things.
  1071. # [21:35] <zewt> (which is a result I'll take over proprietary tech winning outright, but)
  1072. # [21:36] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-0-208.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1073. # [21:36] * tantek-ipod is now known as tantek
  1074. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> We can fix (b) with something like Mixins.
  1075. # [21:36] <roc> Hixie: hypothetically, if there were two competing standards, and one was better than the other in every way, but the other got more usage initially because its backer spread a lot of money around, and it won, then that wouldn't be good for the Web
  1076. # [21:36] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@95-27-230-128.broadband.corbina.ru)
  1077. # [21:36] <zewt> TabAtkins: it seems to me that prefixing was introduced before people started accepting the fact that APIs rarely become "finalized" and etched in stone, and the way things are prefixed just never caught up to deal with that change
  1078. # [21:37] <roc> if Microsoft had spread more money around and had a free hand to use their full range of anticompetitive tricks, and Silverlight had then won, that wouldn't have been good for the Web either
  1079. # [21:37] <roc> competition is generally good, but it doesn't always produce optimal results
  1080. # [21:38] <zewt> roc: "fair competition is good" is a more useful statement, I think
  1081. # [21:38] <zewt> unfair competition, not so much--whatever "unfair" means
  1082. # [21:38] <roc> depends on the definition of "fair"
  1083. # [21:38] <zewt> yep
  1084. # [21:38] <roc> you're likely to define it to make that statement a tautology
  1085. # [21:39] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:1de7:fcfe:3023:7eef)
  1086. # [21:39] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  1087. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> roc, Silverlight is completely incompatible with the rest of the web platform and is so large that it's effectively impossible to standardize, so it's not comparable to the properties/methods/etc. we're talking about.
  1088. # [21:39] <roc> TabAtkins: we should go through the set of non-CR CSS proposals and identify a set that we should unprefix today
  1089. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> roc: I agree with this.
  1090. # [21:39] <roc> AryehGregor: sorry, I'm just riffing on "competition makes us stronger"
  1091. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> roc: Come to MTV and we can work on it. ^_^
  1092. # [21:39] <Hixie> roc: well, depends on whether they want their extensions to win specifically or whether they just want the ability in the platform
  1093. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Competition in its purest sense is incompatible with the notion of copyright. After all, copyright is a legal monopoly.
  1094. # [21:40] <Hixie> roc: in google's case, while there may be specific engineers who get attached to specific ideas sometimes (me included!), as a general rule, the desire is to get interoperable implementations of particular abilities into the platform, and not any one particular tech or another.
  1095. # [21:40] <Hixie> roc: can't say what microsoft's goals are, though
  1096. # [21:40] <roc> you always want your extension to win, because you're first to market with your extension which gives you an advantage
  1097. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> So we're definitely talking about only limited competition here in any event.
  1098. # [21:40] <zewt> AryehGregor: eh, that's a misunderstanding of "copyright"; you can make that argument a lot more convincingly against patents
  1099. # [21:41] <roc> by "you" I include myself
  1100. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> In CSS we're still occasionally having to slap MS's hand about pushing their *particular* impl quirks.
  1101. # [21:41] <Hixie> roc: i think if there were two competing standards, and one was better than the other in every way, then it's unlikely google would spend money on the other. again, dunno about microsoft.
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  1103. # [21:41] <zewt> you can leverage copyright against competition, but if anyone actually wants to do *that* it's the w3c :)
  1104. # [21:42] <roc> TabAtkins: this should only take 30 minutes
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  1106. # [21:42] <roc> Hixie: I used to believe that, but I don't now.
  1107. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> zewt, one of the axioms of perfect competition is that all sellers are selling interchangeable products, so . . .
  1108. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> roc: Wanna organize a time this week? Anyone else you believe should be in on it?
  1109. # [21:42] <zewt> copyright doesn't prevent creating interchangeable products
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  1111. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Perfect competition is incompatible with R&D, really. The point is, it's not necessarily always desirable.
  1112. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> zewt, it either prevents creating interchangeable products, or creates barriers to enter the market (violating another axiom of pure competition).
  1113. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> roc: I've been meaning to talk with you about measurement/position APIs as well. Sometime soon.
  1114. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> I.e., you have to expend a lot of resources to create an interchangeable product and thereby enter the market.
  1115. # [21:43] <roc> How about me, David and Boris come up with a list (we're all in Auckland this week), you come up with a list, and we'll propose unprefixing the intersection of those lists? :-)
  1116. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> But I'm quibbling.
  1117. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> roc: Ah, didn't realize you were all down there! Sounds good.
  1118. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> roc, TabAtkins: How about the policy is changed to "the second shipping implementation removes prefixes if it looks pretty much compatible"?
  1119. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Instead of "remove prefixes at CR"?
  1120. # [21:44] * Joins: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk)
  1121. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Obviously, I'm talking on a per-property basis, not per-spec.
  1122. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Why not "when we have two impls, cut everything that's not ready for CR and push the rest up"?
  1123. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, . . . because then you'll have a new standard like every three months for every time a single small group of features get implemented?
  1124. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: ...and?
  1125. # [21:45] <zewt> and that's horrible? heh
  1126. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> I don't think that will work well with W3C policy.
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  1128. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> Process, you know.
  1129. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> I'm all in favor of annual snapshots.
  1130. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Anyway, got to go.
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  1132. # [21:46] <Hixie> roc: i'm not aware of ever having seen that situation, so i have no data one way or the other
  1133. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> Nah, it can work within the Process if you're proactive about it.
  1134. # [21:47] <Hixie> roc: as i've said before, though, if you ever see a case where you think google is pushing for inferior tech, please tell me about it so i can see what's up
  1135. # [21:47] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  1142. # [21:50] <zewt> TabAtkins: i think it's more than "two compatible implementations exist for some feature" to warrant unprefixing, though
  1143. # [21:50] <zewt> if two vendors quickly implement a new, in-development spec, you want to let it sit around prefixed for a while--let the spec bake, let people play around with the implementations to improve it, before locking it in place by unprefixing
  1144. # [21:51] <zewt> even if it's just "two compatible implementations and an OK from the spec editor"
  1145. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> zewt: I agree.
  1146. # [21:52] <zewt> (it might be possible to lay out stricter criteria, but it's probably not possible to get them right the first 2-3 attempts)
  1147. # [21:53] <TabAtkins> I don't think there's much reason to be strict about it. A general policy and people eager to apply it should be enough.
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  1151. # [21:54] <zewt> basically "the editor says OK to locking that part of the spec into backwards-compat" (hopefully implying "we've used the API in practice enough to give that kind of sign-off")
  1152. # [21:54] * jgraham thinks the response to "we should do X" of "let's have a f2f meeting!" is part of the problem
  1153. # [21:54] <zewt> letting people use judgement? :O
  1154. # [21:54] <jgraham> Or part of a problem at least
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  1157. # [21:56] * ojan is now known as ojan_lunch
  1158. # [21:57] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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  1165. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Bah. Pair programming is the best programming.
  1166. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> Pff
  1167. # [22:03] <zewt> let's waste half of every programmer :P
  1168. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> I think that single programming is wasting half of a programmer.
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  1171. # [22:09] <jgraham> I have no evidence that statement is false. But not all tasks are programming and waiting for optimum conditions for any single task doesn't maximise overall throughput
  1172. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> You may have noticed the smilie after my statement, in any case, indicating a lack of seriousness.
  1173. # [22:10] <jgraham> I already find it pretty concerning that the CSS WG has like 4 F2F meetings a year and has to schedule special extra time at TPAC
  1174. # [22:10] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I really didn't. And still haven't
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  1176. # [22:11] <jgraham> Oh you mean the original statement
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  1179. # [22:11] <jgraham> Yeah, fair enough
  1180. # [22:14] <astearns> jgraham: the CSS WG needs all that time for the unbounded pagination demoing
  1181. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> SO MANY PAGES
  1182. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> On that note, pagination 100% needs to be broken down into more primitives.
  1183. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Maybe Regions too?
  1184. # [22:15] <jgraham> astearns: I thought that was the point of TPAC, not just the CSS meeting
  1185. # [22:15] <astearns> jgraham: yes, it overflowed
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  1196. # [22:32] <roc> "two compatible implementations" is a very large improvement on "one implementation", and delaying unprefixing beyond that may very likely hurt more than it helps --- see hsivonen's observations
  1197. # [22:35] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@12.1.203.2)
  1198. # [22:36] <zcorpan> why do people care about whitespace for quasis but not for innerHTML or normal markup?
  1199. # [22:37] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@12.1.203.2)
  1200. # [22:38] <krijn> TabAtkins: we will, thanks!
  1201. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: People care about whitespace for quasis?
  1202. # [22:40] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: blast off!)
  1203. # [22:43] <zcorpan> some do, apparently
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  1206. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> I was wondering the same
  1207. # [22:43] <jgraham> +1 on the wondering
  1208. # [22:45] <jgraham> AryehGregor: BTW what you really want is commit-on-a-branch-then-review
  1209. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> Bleh, filing a bug with Moz Legal is too much work. I'll just make up my own example.
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  1212. # [22:59] <zewt> roc: "two compatible implementations" without "plus editor's OK" would be bad, I think; human judgement must be in the equation somewhere
  1213. # [23:00] <zcorpan> why does http://blog.webmproject.org/2011/11/video-codecs-101.html ues flash?
  1214. # [23:00] <astearns> "two compatible implementations" seems to me to imply a test suite. The tests don't always come that soon, unfortunately
  1215. # [23:01] <espadrine> zcorpan: Is there a way to have embedded youtube videos in html?
  1216. # [23:01] <gsnedders> astearns: "both work on Gmail"/"both work on FB Chat" works in lieu of a test-suite :P
  1217. # [23:01] <espadrine> afaik html5 youtube is only available on their website
  1218. # [23:01] <astearns> grr
  1219. # [23:02] <zcorpan> espadrine: the flash embed code uses html if the user has opted in, iirc
  1220. # [23:02] <zcorpan> espadrine: anyway that's not youtube afaict
  1221. # [23:02] <zcorpan> or maybe it is
  1222. # [23:03] * zcorpan opts in
  1223. # [23:03] <zcorpan> ok, ignore me!
  1224. # [23:04] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@e179011071.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  1225. # [23:05] <espadrine> zcorpan: I ignore you ;)
  1226. # [23:05] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1227. # [23:06] * svl hasn't opted in (blocking all youtube cookies actually) and has lately been getting youtube webm videos on random blogs.
  1228. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: How do you justify the Dart/TC39 split then that has obviously happened within Google?
  1229. # [23:07] <Hixie> "justify"?
  1230. # [23:08] <gsnedders> s/justify/explain/ really
  1231. # [23:08] <Hixie> differing visions of what is best for the web
  1232. # [23:09] <gsnedders> I mean, if the aim is to get bigints, classes into the web platform, that could've been done (and was being done, by Google, before people got pulled from TC-39!), but the aim is obviously just to use Dart.
  1233. # [23:10] <Hixie> "the aim" implies a premise that is false
  1234. # [23:11] <gsnedders> The point of Dart is to make up for the lack of a number of things in JS, right?
  1235. # [23:12] * ojan_lunch is now known as ojan
  1236. # [23:12] <Hixie> not so much lacking features so much as what, to dart's supporters, are viewed as fundamental design decisions, i believe
  1237. # [23:13] <Hixie> http://www.dartlang.org/docs/technical-overview/index.html seems to discuss the goals in more detail than i could do justice on irc
  1238. # [23:13] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  1239. # [23:14] <gsnedders> See, I still don't think anyone else apart from a small number of Google people see anything in Dart as fundamental design decisions.
  1240. # [23:14] <Hixie> agreed
  1241. # [23:14] <gsnedders> I mean, the only fundamental change is class-based OO instead of prototype-based OO.
  1242. # [23:15] <gsnedders> And with some sort of class syntax likely to be introduced in ES6, that's becoming blurred.
  1243. # [23:15] <Hixie> i'm not familiar enough with either dart or future js proposals to comment on such specifics
  1244. # [23:16] <gsnedders> Kinda disconcerting that what I've heard from multiple people is that Dart exists in large part just to keep Lars Baks at Google.
  1245. # [23:16] <gsnedders> Unleashing a new language to the web (esp. if it reaches Chrome) is not a nice thing at all, and that really is a flimsy reason to do so.
  1246. # [23:19] <Hixie> while personally i think that the right thing to do on the web is to embrace and extend existing technologies in a vendor-neutral manner, i don't think it's bad to experiment with new things.
  1247. # [23:19] <Hixie> i mean, one day i hope html is replaced by something better
  1248. # [23:19] <Hixie> and it's not like it's going to come out of a standards committee
  1249. # [23:20] <Hixie> i presume the same applies to, e.g., JS
  1250. # [23:20] <Hixie> when new things aren't better enough, they fail
  1251. # [23:20] <Hixie> q.v. xhtml2
  1252. # [23:20] <Hixie> have faith in the power of the market :-)
  1253. # [23:20] <Ms2ger> Pah
  1254. # [23:21] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1255. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: Google can single-handedly more-or-less make other browser vendors do things to some extent, though. If Gmail got a new UI only to Dart-supporting browsers, I expect everyone else would look very closely at Dart.
  1256. # [23:23] <gsnedders> I mean, if it were FB who started using Dart, nobody would really care, probaly.
  1257. # [23:23] <gsnedders> *probably
  1258. # [23:23] <Ms2ger> See: spdy
  1259. # [23:23] <gsnedders> But because Google control both ends of the stack…
  1260. # [23:23] <Hixie> yeah, i was about to say
  1261. # [23:23] <Hixie> see spdy
  1262. # [23:23] <zewt> well, spdy isn't being pushed
  1263. # [23:23] <erlehmann> gsnedders, if that is true, where is my webm-enabled proprietary browser? :3
  1264. # [23:23] <Hixie> you wildly overestimate google's power here :-)
  1265. # [23:23] <Hixie> webm is another example
  1266. # [23:23] <gsnedders> erlehmann: YouTube supports H.264 too.
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  1269. # [23:24] <gsnedders> erlehmann: So from a content POV they aren't pushing it in the same way.
  1270. # [23:24] <Hixie> not only that, but there's a huge difference between webm and dart
  1271. # [23:24] <zewt> (i wish something like spdy would be pushed, though I'm not familiar enough with spdy to know if I'd want it in particular to be)
  1272. # [23:24] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90)
  1273. # [23:24] <Hixie> with webm, pretty much everyone at google thinks it's better than h.264 for the web
  1274. # [23:24] <erlehmann> zewt, go read about it. then read about SCTP
  1275. # [23:24] <Hixie> whereas with dart, views are really quite mixed on the matter
  1276. # [23:24] <zewt> i've read about it, but i don't know how it is in practice
  1277. # [23:25] <zewt> (havn't heard of sctp)
  1278. # [23:25] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I remember an announcement about removing H### support from Chrome... Is that still going to happen?
  1279. # [23:25] <Hixie> dunno, i'm not part of the chrome team
  1280. # [23:25] <Hixie> i would assume so
  1281. # [23:25] <jgraham> I'm not sure he is underestimating google's power
  1282. # [23:25] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  1283. # [23:26] <jgraham> You have the position to be very evil, if you choose
  1284. # [23:26] <gsnedders> I mean, the SPDY example isn't really relevant: you're still serving the same content over HTTP.
  1285. # [23:27] <timeless> gsnedders: just slower and with less security?
  1286. # [23:27] <zewt> spdy isn't user-visible (or rather, the user-visibility of it is subtle)
  1287. # [23:27] <gsnedders> But if you start serving Dart over SPDY to browsers which support both and stop updating the JS/HTTP version…
  1288. # [23:27] <gsnedders> timeless: See what zewt said.
  1289. # [23:28] <zewt> webm vs h264 is also not user-visible (or again subtle--mostly a difference in legal issues, and secondarily in coding efficiency, neither of which most users will notice)
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  1292. # [23:28] <timeless> well
  1293. # [23:28] <timeless> that's unfair
  1294. # [23:28] <timeless> these are all transports
  1295. # [23:28] <timeless> making them user visible is all about some content provider only providing better content via one transport
  1296. # [23:29] <timeless> that applies to SPDY and WEBM and Dart
  1297. # [23:29] <timeless> or Silverlight if you ha ve
  1298. # [23:29] <jgraham> If helps if you want to portray your browser as fast that it can load your sites faster than the competition by using a proprietary protocol
  1299. # [23:29] <zewt> if google decided to make things visibly lessened when on h264 (lower the bitrate a lot) or when on http instead of spdy (disable features when not on spdy), then they could push those features; of course, that's out-of-line from the features themselves
  1300. # [23:29] <timeless> jgraham: sure
  1301. # [23:29] <zewt> and yeah, that's the sort of thing google could use their weight to push things where most others can't
  1302. # [23:30] <zewt> of course, they'd also be lessening their own products in the process (making gmail not as good in Firefox or IE or whoever they're trying to pressure), so it's not without cost to them
  1303. # [23:30] <annevk> roc: I think the stacking makes sense now, thanks for explaining; I do think we should restrict it to subtrees (either of the element or the Document, depending on where it is set)
  1304. # [23:30] <timeless> zewt: they're killing gmail-java for blackberry
  1305. # [23:30] <zewt> annevk: so you can't fullscreen a->b->c->d and then stack a a->b->c2 fullscreen on top of it?
  1306. # [23:30] <annevk> roc: If we do not restrict it to subtrees you get really weird scenarios and I'm not even sure that's possible given the UI and API constraints
  1307. # [23:31] <zewt> (sounds reasonable, if that's what you mean)
  1308. # [23:31] <timeless> and they killed gmail ui=2 for IE6 iirc
  1309. # [23:31] <Hixie> jgraham: gsnedders argues that google can single-handedly change the web technology stack, but as far as i can tell, that is simply untrue -- either due to inability, as i would tend to believe, or due to policy, which is certainly also possible -- and there are multiple examples of cases demonstrating this imho, as discussed above.
  1310. # [23:31] <zewt> timeless: heh, that one I'm not going to shed any tears over :)
  1311. # [23:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'd argue it's done to policy in alrge part.
  1312. # [23:31] <gsnedders> *large
  1313. # [23:31] <annevk> zewt: yes
  1314. # [23:32] <gsnedders> And that's the scary thing.
  1315. # [23:32] <Hixie> jgraham: (microsoft certainly also have had cases where they would have liked a technology to take over the web, and they have certainly not had policy to stop them, and they've had far _more_ leverage than google does, e.g. 99% market share for their browser, and they have equally failed to single-handedly do such things.)
  1316. # [23:32] <Hixie> gsnedders: if it was just policy, microsoft would have replaced html with silverlight long ago, imho
  1317. # [23:32] <timeless> zewt: well, i believe they offer Chrome as a download
  1318. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: Having open-source code for Dart especially makes it far easier for Google than it ever was for MS, though
  1319. # [23:33] <timeless> gsnedders: i'm not sure on that point :)
  1320. # [23:33] <Hixie> gsnedders: that's certainly a novel argument
  1321. # [23:34] <zewt> timeless: there's a reasonable ulterior motive there, too, though--not wanting to have to maintain compatibility with IE6
  1322. # [23:34] <timeless> zewt: hey, not all reasons for doing something have to be evil
  1323. # [23:34] <timeless> i'm just noting that a vendor clearly can try to persuade users to move
  1324. # [23:34] <timeless> and has shown its willingness to do so
  1325. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: Is it? Opera could never ship Silverlight on Linux/MIPS, so MS could give us all the insentive in the world and we wouldn't. With Dart that isn't so clear-cut.
  1326. # [23:34] <timeless> heck, even MS does!
  1327. # [23:35] <timeless> the SharePoint team forced users to upgrade by dropping IE6 support!
  1328. # [23:35] * gsnedders tries at the very mention of SharePoint
  1329. # [23:35] <timeless> gsnedders: incentive, i think
  1330. # [23:35] * annevk missed neologisms in hsivonen's post
  1331. # [23:35] <Hixie> gsnedders: mono?
  1332. # [23:35] * annevk is slightly disappointed
  1333. # [23:36] <Hixie> annevk: ?
  1334. # [23:36] * timeless thought ms gave some support to mono
  1335. # [23:36] <timeless> and just because some teams at MS or Sun weren't very good at doing what needed to be done to force something
  1336. # [23:37] <gsnedders> timeless: Yes, that's how you spell it. :P
  1337. # [23:37] <timeless> doesn't mean some other team at some other company can't get something similar done w/ similar or even slightly less resources
  1338. # [23:37] <Hixie> gsnedders: anyway, there's one way to make this a non-issue
  1339. # [23:37] <Hixie> gsnedders: get more market share :-P
  1340. # [23:38] * timeless thinks MS/Sun made marketing / strategic mistakes
  1341. # [23:38] * Joins: PalleZingmark (~Adium@c83-250-137-0.bredband.comhem.se)
  1342. # [23:38] <timeless> not so much technological, but more political
  1343. # [23:38] <gsnedders> Hixie: I dunno — it's not so much market-share-as-vendor that's relevant here as it is market-share-as-content-provider.
  1344. # [23:38] <annevk> Hixie: hsivonen sometimes coins awesome words
  1345. # [23:39] <annevk> or phrases
  1346. # [23:39] <Hixie> gsnedders: you need both in order to effect market-changing leverage, imho
  1347. # [23:39] <Hixie> annevk: oh, i get it
  1348. # [23:39] <Hixie> annevk: i thought you meant he'd used some and you'd not noticed them or something
  1349. # [23:39] <Hixie> annevk: and i was wondering which ones i'd missed!
  1350. # [23:40] <annevk> heh
  1351. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: Google has enough as market-share-as-vendor to have the leverage, IMO. So it's really just everyone who needs to cut into that.
  1352. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Controlling both ends of the stack leads to some interesting cases…
  1353. # [23:42] <roc> SPDY is being pushed
  1354. # [23:42] <roc> we're implementing it
  1355. # [23:43] <roc> I think we're going to help standardize it
  1356. # [23:43] <gsnedders> I still think SPDY was pushed live too soon and could've been improved upon…
  1357. # [23:43] <timeless> gsnedders: you're in favor of IETF bikeshedding? :-)
  1358. # [23:43] <gsnedders> roc: Are you still going to be willing to change it after shipping if standardizing decides to make changes?
  1359. # [23:43] <roc> annevk: dunno what you mean by "restrict to subtree"
  1360. # [23:44] <roc> gsnedders: depends on the changes. I assume we'd be willing to make some changes
  1361. # [23:44] <Hixie> gsnedders: shipping is standardisation. if a committee decides to change the spec after it's shipped interoperably, that's just dumb.
  1362. # [23:44] <Ms2ger> Hixie, remember, this is IETF territory
  1363. # [23:44] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-ncsexxpxwtczezqf) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  1364. # [23:44] <roc> I hope that if we encounter something stupid that we think should be changed, we won't just go ahead and implement the stupid thing. But I'm not doing the work.
  1365. # [23:44] <timeless> Ms2ger: i'm sure he wants to forget :)
  1366. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: Effectively Google has standardized SPDY on its own without consulting anyone by shipping, and that's what I don't like.
  1367. # [23:45] <Hixie> what timeless said
  1368. # [23:45] <timeless> thanks :)
  1369. # [23:45] <Hixie> gsnedders: dude, you can hardly say google didn't consult anyone
  1370. # [23:45] <Hixie> gsnedders: nobody might have been interested, but that's an entirely different matter
  1371. # [23:46] <Ms2ger> If nobody's interested, that might be a sign that you aren't heading in the right direction
  1372. # [23:46] <Hixie> completely agreed
  1373. # [23:46] <Hixie> we saw this with svg, too
  1374. # [23:46] <timeless> heh
  1375. # [23:46] <timeless> +1
  1376. # [23:46] <Ms2ger> ^
  1377. # [23:47] <Hixie> where svg was headed in the wrong direction, and the browser vendors ignored it because we had enough on our plate and weren't interested
  1378. # [23:47] <Hixie> and then later on it was too late, and so that's what we implemented
  1379. # [23:47] <Hixie> it's not limited to one-vendor situations
  1380. # [23:47] * timeless ponders
  1381. # [23:48] <Ms2ger> I guess you could count the SVGWG as one vendor
  1382. # [23:48] <annevk> roc: tree is <div id=a> <div id=b/> <div>; one #a goes fullscreen, #b can; but if #b goes fullscreen, #a can't
  1383. # [23:48] * Quits: PalleZingmark (~Adium@c83-250-137-0.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1384. # [23:49] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1385. # [23:51] <zewt> given that the typical UI that would put #a fullscreen is no longer visible if #b is fullscreen, that seems sane
  1386. # [23:51] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.155.126) (Quit: nn)
  1387. # [23:51] <annevk> yeah, I'm not even sure how you'd get a trusted click in the first place
  1388. # [23:51] <zewt> also it makes the "stack" work like a "stack" in both senses of the word
  1389. # [23:51] <roc> annevk: I'm not sure why any restrictions in the spec are needed here
  1390. # [23:52] <zewt> eg. the list of fullscreened elements is a stack, and it's also a stack in terms of the DOM nodes (top-down)
  1391. # [23:52] <annevk> roc: otherwise figuring out fullscreenchange events get harder I think
  1392. # [23:52] <zewt> (whether it's actually needed for a sane API/implementation, no idea)
  1393. # [23:52] <annevk> roc: you did not define those in your change proposal
  1394. # [23:54] <roc> what's the problem? you run the algorithm, then figure out what's fullscreen in each document and fire fullscreenchange at it
  1395. # [23:54] <roc> alternatively we could just fire fullscreen at the document and never at the element
  1396. # [23:54] <roc> fullscreenchange I mean
  1397. # [23:55] <roc> if you want to catch loss-of-fullscreen you need to register at the document anyway
  1398. # [23:55] <annevk> there's no problem, the algorithm is just more complicated
  1399. # [23:55] <annevk> and probably unnecessarily so
  1400. # [23:56] <roc> then let's simplify things by firing fullscreenchange at the document always
  1401. # [23:57] <annevk> e.g. if B embeds two documents and fullscreen changes from one of those documents to the other
  1402. # [23:57] <annevk> the stack situation gets more complicated
  1403. # [23:57] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@e179011071.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1404. # [23:58] <timeless> is it changing using JS?
  1405. # [23:58] <annevk> JS could have a reference, sure
  1406. # [23:59] <annevk> so yeah, UI-restricted does not make sense and this situation could definitely arise
  1407. # Session Close: Wed Nov 16 00:00:00 2011

The end :)