/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-21 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Nov 21 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:01] <AryehGregor> Also, I notice Unity has been improved to handle two monitors correctly now, where "correctly" means "the left-hand monitor must be the primary one" instead of "the left-hand side of both monitors kind of works except not really because the design specs didn't say how to behave for multiple monitors and so the behavior is essentially random".
# [00:01] <finn_a> Too true.
# [00:02] <AryehGregor> Not that I'm blaming them. I mean, if you have only like two guys writing your features, it's probably a good idea to not actually let users have options.
# [00:02] <finn_a> Ubuntu is sweet, but sometimes, if you want to do something just a little bit outside the ordinary path, you'll struggle.
# [00:02] <finn_a> Humm... I mean, the beaten path. I think
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> That way, the 16% of users who are actually happy with the defaults can have a great experience, the 61% of users who don't like the defaults but are too lazy to change them will get used to the workarounds they figure out and eventually not care, and only 23% will be angry enough to switch to another distro.
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> (figures may not add up to 100% due to rounding and/or fabrication)
# [00:04] <finn_a> Seems about right.
# [00:05] <AryehGregor> Also, it seems like Alt-F2 now refuses to run the command you actually specify and instead autocompletes with no obvious way to override it, even if you give a full path.
# [00:05] <finn_a> How annoying.
# [00:05] <AryehGregor> Apparently its search index hasn't heard of /usr/bin/gnome-panel, so it must not exist, and I must mean /usr/bin/gnome-panel-screenshot instead.
# [00:06] <AryehGregor> It's only fair, I'm sure I'm a backwards cretin for wanting GNOME 2 features anyway.
# [00:06] <AryehGregor> Problem is, I have no idea how Alt-F2 works or how to replicate its effect (namely running a graphical program without having to keep it open in some terminal or screen or such).
# [00:07] <finn_a> There's always the desktop/GUI solution.
# [00:07] <AryehGregor> What?
# [00:07] <finn_a> If you can stick a shortcut somewhere that solves it.
# [00:08] <AryehGregor> Oh.
# [00:08] <AryehGregor> Right.
# [00:08] <AryehGregor> Those things.
# [00:08] <finn_a> Pretty annoying though. I agree.
# [00:08] <AryehGregor> Now the fun question is, will it actually let me create a shortcut by path, or do I have to browse to it in nautilus and drag because users aren't supposed to know about filesystems?
# [00:09] * AryehGregor waits however many minutes for nautilus to display a few hundred sorted icons in /usr/bin
# [00:09] <AryehGregor> Okay, less than a minute.
# [00:09] <finn_a> Lucky there
# [00:10] <finn_a> So, the atmosphere here in the IRC chat is quite different from the forums
# [00:10] <finn_a> I think I like it
# [00:10] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish_
# [00:10] <AryehGregor> Brilliant, it copied it. That is exactly the correct default action when dragging an executable!
# [00:10] <AryehGregor> Do actual WHATWG people use the forums?
# [00:10] <finn_a> I have no idea. I just browsed there and said wat
# [00:10] <AryehGregor> I mean, like, the people who edit specs and stuff.
# [00:10] <AryehGregor> Also, don't equate my occasional ranting with the normal atmosphere of this channel.
# [00:11] <AryehGregor> I only occasionally indulge, when I want to procrastinate and no one is saying anything important that I'm disrupting.
# [00:11] <finn_a> Nah I've been lurking for a while now
# [00:11] <finn_a> Nothing as inane as the stuff in the forums
# [00:11] * AryehGregor cannot find a way to make a link using the GUI, so resorts to ln -s from the command line so that he can click the shortcut because the command itself doesn't do what he wants from the command line
# [00:12] <finn_a> Oh lawd.
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> Success!
# [00:12] <finn_a> Sometimes I'm glad I'm stuck with Windows.
# [00:12] <finn_a> Then I remember, I'm stuck with Windows...
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> That's the great thing about Linux. It perpetually annoys you with stupid and totally unnecessary inconveniences, but then makes you feel smart because you figure out how to work around them
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> .
# [00:13] <AryehGregor> Unless it makes you feel stupid because you can't figure out how to work around them, in which case you should stick to Windows.
# [00:13] <finn_a> Or for that sake, Mac.
# [00:13] <finn_a> I must say. I tried. I tried, Linux, I really did.
# [00:13] <finn_a> But, I can't seem to install it at all.
# [00:14] <finn_a> I don't have a CD drive
# [00:14] <finn_a> And the Wubi install doesn't work for me
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> Okay, now everything is actually working the way I want it again. I'm pleased. This is below average downtime for an Ubuntu upgrade.
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait, spoke too soon.
# [00:14] <finn_a> It begins...
# [00:15] <AryehGregor> gnome-panel made a top panel that partially overlaps the Unity panel.
# [00:15] <finn_a> How darn annoying
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# [00:15] <finn_a> Such is life in Ubuntu 11.
# [00:16] <AryehGregor> 11.10.
# [00:16] <AryehGregor> Not 11.
# [00:16] <AryehGregor> It's YY.MM.
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# [00:17] <finn_a^> So apparently it's cool to crash.
# [00:17] <finn_a^> While I'm typing out a long sentence
# [00:17] <AryehGregor> Well, you said you use Windows, so yeah.
# [00:17] <finn_a^> True enough
# [00:18] <AryehGregor> . . . Windows did actually crash?
# [00:18] <finn_a^> Nah it was Opera
# [00:18] <AryehGregor> Oh, okay.
# [00:18] <finn_a^> Makes sense still
# [00:18] <AryehGregor> Because I thought Windows was actually reasonably stable these days.
# [00:18] <finn_a^> It sort of is but my netbook only has like 1 gig of ram or something
# [00:18] <finn_a^> Three tabs at the same time? Nyeeeah. Maybe
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# [00:20] <finn_a^> http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4741
# [00:20] <finn_a^> Is this the real world?
# [00:21] <finn_a^> I mean, I can't really blame the guy, with all the HTML5 hype, but, really?
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# [00:22] <AryehGregor> Looks like zcorpan is the only actual WHATWG person who uses the forum.
# [00:23] <finn_a^> Something like that.
# [00:24] <finn_a^> Maybe I should try unetbootin
# [00:24] <finn_a^> ...In that case I'm getting Debian though
# [00:30] <finn_a^> Guess I'll try it
# [00:30] <finn_a^> Talk to you.
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# [00:48] * AryehGregor finds himself poring through an strace of gnome-panel to figure out where it's reading its configuration from
# [00:48] <AryehGregor> This is more like a typical upgrade now.
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# [00:58] * AryehGregor gives up on getting gnome-panel to work correctly for now
# [00:59] * AryehGregor slightly suspects he destroyed his gnome-panel settings and they just don't take effect until GNOME restarts or something
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# [01:06] <AryehGregor> Oh, wow, they borked Alt-Tab.
# [01:07] <AryehGregor> Hitting it twice in a row no longer lets you switch between two windows.
# [01:07] <zewt> haha
# [01:07] <AryehGregor> . . .
# [01:07] <zewt> yeah uh that's universal windows ui 101
# [01:07] <AryehGregor> The first one gets me from terminal to Chrome, the second gets me from Chrome window 1 to Chrome window 2.
# [01:07] <zewt> ("windowing ui")
# [01:07] <AryehGregor> I have to hit tab twice to get back to the terminal.
# [01:07] <zewt> if they think that's an acceptable change, then they have no business making a windowing system
# [01:08] <AryehGregor> That's exceptionally horrifying even for Ubuntu upgrade brokenness.
# [01:08] <zewt> i keep a wide distance between myself and linux as a desktop. heh
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# [04:57] <zewt> "The idea is not to remove APIs." "smaller set of facilities" ... okay ...
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# [05:53] <zewt> heh
# [05:54] <zewt> sixty million sites? no big deal!
# [05:55] <zewt> should just filter out that utter waste of time thread so i don't feel the urge to keep looking at it
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# [05:57] <paul_irish_> zewt: which thread is this
# [05:58] <zewt> "tag comment on" (sic)
# [05:59] <zewt> wherein apparently people try to argue that tens of millions of sites is small enough to not worry about changing web storage
# [06:00] <zewt> (an unlikely number, i think, but that's beside the point)
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# [06:20] <Hixie_> non-vendors arguing with vendors who say no is always rather amusing
# [06:24] <tantek> prefixes?
# [06:24] <Hixie_> in this particular instance, the thread zewt mentioned
# [06:24] <Hixie_> but it's always funny regardless of who it is
# [06:25] <zewt> that thread's just abject nonsense, heh
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# [06:28] <zewt> my takeaway is just names being associated with the nonsense--in this case, "w3c tag" (and since I don't really know what the "TAG" is, i just associate the w3c with it), and oracle
# [06:29] <Hixie_> the TAG is essentially an invitation-only interest group
# [06:30] <zewt> an unpleasant series of words in and of itself
# [06:30] <Hixie_> it's constituents are those who think it is a good idea to sit on a group which has "architecture" as one of the three words of its name
# [06:31] <Hixie_> and who can get voted in by a group, i forget if the voting group is the incumbent group of people on the tag, or the ac, or some other group
# [06:31] <zewt> and periodically make suggestions half a decade or more too late
# [06:31] <zewt> (along with all the other obvious problems here)
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# [06:33] <zewt> the disconnect from reality is stunning, even if it shouldn't be
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# [09:08] <hsivonen> ooh. there's now a keyword for a11y_semantics on the W3C bugzilla
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# [09:10] <hsivonen> and a11y_table_headers
# [09:10] <hsivonen> oh, come on. how come this is an a11y bug? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13396
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# [10:42] <jgraham> AryehGregor: But [[Class]] == XPC_WN_ModsAllowed_NoCall_Proto_JSClass is so pretty!
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# [11:17] <annevk> heycam|away: maybe unions should be a typedef and we should support something like or for methods e.g. append(DOMString|Node node...) or some such
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# [11:18] <annevk> heycam|away: that is I think supporting or for methods is enough, maybe allowing a typedef for them is nice as a convenient short name, if that doesn't have side effects
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# [12:33] <annevk> <s> is the one that is legal right?
# [12:33] <annevk> s element is impossible to search for in the HTML spec
# [12:33] <annevk> so I wrote http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-time-police
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# [12:41] <annevk> "(as opposed to just writing the specs for the browser implementors and leaving web authors guessing)" ah yeah, I forgot why I put those domintro boxes in the XHR spec
# [12:42] <annevk> o_O
# [12:42] <annevk> what an asshat
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# [12:50] <jgraham> annevk: The phrase "could care less about" doesn't make much sense in the context you used it. At least I presume you weren't intending to convey "I care about this some unspecified amount that is greater than the minimum amount that I could care"
# [12:51] <jgraham> (possibly you meant "couldn't care less" which is likely untrue, but might convey the sentiment of not thinging it is a substantive issue better)
# [12:51] <jgraham> *thinking
# [12:54] <annevk> jgraham: ooh
# [12:54] <annevk> jgraham: you're talking about my email to public-html
# [12:55] <annevk> jgraham: I guess I did mean couldn't
# [12:55] <annevk> I think I've made that mistake before :(
# [12:55] * annevk was searching through his WHATWG Weekly post
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# [13:00] <annevk> hehe
# [13:00] <annevk> I'm now labeled "spindoctor"
# [13:00] <annevk> by stevef
# [13:01] <annevk> not really sure what I am spinning though
# [13:02] <jgraham> annevk: It's one of those things that people *all* *over* *the* *internet* get wrong and I get annoyed by. I probably shouldn't since I'm sure I write some stupid stuff too. But still.
# [13:03] <annevk> It's good to call it out
# [13:03] <annevk> I aspire to write better English than the natives, but I usually fail :)
# [13:06] <annevk> wow
# [13:06] <annevk> I canceled my The Economist subscription since I hardly ever read it these days
# [13:06] <annevk> they just cancel it per direct and give you the remaining money back
# [13:07] <annevk> classy
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# [13:10] <zcorpan> i guess 'width:50%' counts as a "CSS3 layout command", dunno
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# [13:26] <annevk> WHATWG on Google+: https://plus.google.com/110228011578241735536/
# [13:30] <zcorpan> it will be useful for what?
# [13:31] <annevk> not sure yet
# [13:32] <annevk> but might be easier to comment for people on Google+
# [13:32] <annevk> it might be easier to share quick ideas there
# [13:32] <annevk> and get feedback on them
# [13:32] <annevk> we'll have to explore
# [13:34] <zcorpan> do spec updates get posted there?
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# [13:35] <annevk> if someone makes that work
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# [13:39] <annevk> seems a page can only be managed by one person?
# [13:39] <annevk> that would be rather annoying
# [13:39] <annevk> might be a shortlived experiment if so
# [13:41] <espadrine> I think there was the possibility of having more managers, but it was broken, so they removed it
# [13:41] <espadrine> (it might come back)
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# [13:43] <annevk> okay
# [13:43] <annevk> I think I'll just share WHATWG Weekly there for now
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# [14:03] <hsivonen> the new Web, where instead of an RSS feed, someone has to post updates to Twitter, G+, Facebook, etc.
# [14:04] <annevk> that's easy to say, but you do cannot share items out of an RSS feed without twitter/G+/etc.
# [14:05] <annevk> you cannot easily bind popularity to them either without twitter/G+/etc.
# [14:05] <annevk> or get feedback
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# [15:32] <annevk> can someone please fix the WHATWG Wiki somehow?
# [15:32] <annevk> the spam is becoming a serious issue
# [15:32] <annevk> I'm spending way too much time cleaning it up
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# [15:35] <Lachy> annevk, what do you suggest be done?
# [15:35] <annevk> and it seems I'm not the only one
# [15:35] <annevk> for the blog we use the spam software from Matt Mullenweg's company
# [15:35] <annevk> forgot the name
# [15:35] <annevk> there's a mediawiki plugin for that
# [15:36] <annevk> maybe that helps?
# [15:36] <annevk> alternatively
# [15:36] <annevk> block new user registration
# [15:36] <annevk> which sucks
# [15:36] <annevk> and point them to IRC
# [15:36] <annevk> if there's an easy way for us to make a new user that is...
# [15:36] <annevk> or
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# [15:36] <annevk> some plugin that allows deletion
# [15:36] <Lachy> blocking user registration could be done as a temporary fix, but we could try that plugin.
# [15:37] <annevk> like when you got to latest edits
# [15:37] <annevk> a bunch of checkboxes
# [15:37] <annevk> and a big button + delete all content and ban these users
# [15:37] <Lachy> AryehGregor, ^
# [15:38] <annevk> just take a look now: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
# [15:38] <annevk> doesn't even fit on the default page what I did
# [15:38] <annevk> I hope I got all
# [15:38] <annevk> seems hixie/hober/tantek missed a few
# [15:39] <annevk> but spam control should not be something four people have to be involved in over the course of a single week :)
# [15:39] <Lachy> we used to have ConfirmEdit set up which did help a lot. Is that still functioning?
# [15:41] <annevk> there's something about patrolled edits
# [15:41] <annevk> but the content still needs to be removed
# [15:41] <annevk> and it doesn't apply to user pages maybe?
# [15:41] <annevk> yeah, maybe that it doesn't apply to user pages is the problem
# [15:41] <annevk> since everyone keeps creating user pages
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# [15:49] <annevk> kennyluck: I think with feedback we should be as inclusive as possible; whereas when making a standard you want to give as little freedom as possible to the implementor
# [15:49] <Lachy> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:AkismetKlik
# [15:49] <annevk> kennyluck: if such a comparison makes sense at all, which I'm not sure it does :)
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# [15:50] <annevk> Lachy: oh, experimental only :(
# [15:52] <annevk> Lachy: maybe something like http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit ?
# [15:52] <Lachy> annevk, we already have that one
# [15:53] <Lachy> I'm not sure if it's still enabled though, nor how to check
# [15:53] <annevk> Lachy: so new users get a ReCaptcha?
# [15:54] <Lachy> They get asked to solve a simple equation. http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup
# [15:54] <Lachy> Maybe that plugin is just out of date
# [15:54] <annevk> ah yeah
# [15:54] <annevk> maybe we should go for something more complex?
# [15:55] <annevk> it seems '<label for="wpCaptchaWord">53 - 5</label>' is easy enough to automate
# [15:55] <annevk> if this is an automated attack, might not be I guess
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# [16:00] <annevk> already more useful feedback on Google+ than the WHATWG blog has had in quite a while
# [16:01] <annevk> the non-open webby nature of social networks is uncool, but they do help in participation
# [16:02] <Lachy> I upgraded the plugin. But I just noticed all the .svn folders in there now. Did this whole wiki installation get moved to an SVN server somewhere, and then deployed from there?
# [16:04] <annevk> that sounds like a thing foolip would do
# [16:04] <annevk> but I don't think he's involved
# [16:04] <annevk> maybe that's how DreamHost deals with this?
# [16:04] <foolip> hehe, I plead not guilty
# [16:05] <kennyluck> Instead of G+, I think having some WHATWG regulars participate in the discussion forum of the jQuery standard team would be more worthy though.
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# [16:05] <kennyluck> if folks here are not doing it already
# [16:06] <annevk> we're doing it the other way around since a couple of weeks
# [16:06] <annevk> wycats and paul_irish
# [16:06] <annevk> help out via IRC / email
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# [16:07] <annevk> I want to have some kind of StandardsCamp in due course
# [16:07] <annevk> or WebPlatformCamp or whatever
# [16:07] <miketaylr> can it be in an actual forest?
# [16:07] <annevk> if there's wireless of some kind :p
# [16:08] <kennyluck> I assume most of jQuery people are on https://groups.google.com/forum/?pli=1#!forum/jquery-standards and I think setting up more channels won't help much.
# [16:09] <MikeSmith> miketaylr: amen to something you said on a mailing list in the last few days
# [16:09] <MikeSmith> right now I can't remember quite what it was
# [16:09] <miketaylr> heh
# [16:09] <MikeSmith> but you told it like it is
# [16:09] <miketaylr> oh, localStorage?
# [16:10] <annevk> kennyluck: it seems Jake is also on board with them, great!
# [16:10] <MikeSmith> ah yea
# [16:10] <MikeSmith> miketaylr: yah
# [16:10] <MikeSmith> so I should shut up about that
# [16:10] <annevk> kennyluck: I'm occupied enough as it is, but if you have extra time feel free to join and share whatever you learn :)
# [16:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: for the record, I am the W3C's crazy uncle
# [16:11] <MikeSmith> the TAG is not capable of competing with me in that regard
# [16:12] <annevk> if you're the crazy uncle one would have to wonder what the W3C is
# [16:12] <annevk> or the TAG for that matter :p
# [16:12] <kennyluck> annevk, I was trying to save more of your time!
# [16:13] * MikeSmith ends his second two-hour telcon about the same topic in as many days and heads off to drink some shouchu in peace
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# [16:16] <annevk> Should we use http://disqus.com/welcome/ for the WHATWG blog to make it easier for people to give feedback on an article?
# [16:16] <annevk> Apparently it can import existing comments
# [16:16] <jgraham> Why?
# [16:16] <annevk> I just explained why
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# [16:16] <jgraham> Why does it make it easier?
# [16:17] <annevk> because you don't have to fill in all your details
# [16:17] * jgraham has never liked disqus on other people's blogs
# [16:18] <annevk> yeah me neither, but then I don't give much feedback on the WHATWG blog and neither does anyone else
# [16:18] <annevk> and yet there's quite a few people who read it, who probably have questions
# [16:18] <annevk> e.g. on Google+ some people replied directly with some feedback
# [16:18] <annevk> it seems there's some kind of barrier to be kicked down there
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# [16:21] <jgraham> Maybe. I think it is pretty natural to comment on something in the place you found it rather than on the thing itself even if that doesn't make much sense
# [16:21] <jgraham> Consider e.g. reddit, slashdot
# [16:21] <jgraham> Often the articles they link to have comments, but people comment on reddit/etc/ instead
# [16:22] <annevk> That suggests it does not matter much what we do
# [16:22] <annevk> Which might be true, although some WHATWG posts did get a lot of feedback, hmm
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# [16:44] <erlehmann> annevk, i hereby offer to host an imageboard, with the main section being /w/ – whatwg.
# [16:45] <erlehmann> annevk, please do not use disqus. it is a pain for users.
# [16:45] <erlehmann> it also is not usable at all without javascript, without that being necessary.
# [16:46] <erlehmann> i know at least 3 blogs where using disqus has prevented comments from being made, in a „why doesn't this stupid thing work“-way.
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# [16:47] <zcorpan> so about find() and findAll(), are people aware of the existing window.find() which is for page search?
# [16:48] * jgraham wonders why it can't be called .select
# [16:49] <jgraham> (are we really that precious about 2 characters?)
# [16:49] <annevk> erlehmann: okay, no disqus for now
# [16:50] <erlehmann> annevk, i do not even see why one would use it if a comment infrastructure is there. the blogs using it (at least those i know) are mainly HTML static pages.
# [16:51] <zcorpan> jgraham: wasn't select an IE XPath-y API or some such?
# [16:51] <annevk> erlehmann: basically so you don't have to fill in all your details just to leave a simple comment
# [16:51] <annevk> erlehmann: four fields is overkill for what should be one
# [16:52] <erlehmann> annevk, then do it imageboard-style. only an optional name.
# [16:53] <erlehmann> as i detailed in my mail, it leads to more comments, but not necessarily more spam.
# [16:55] <jgraham> zcorpan: selectNodes and selectSingleNode afaict
# [16:55] <zcorpan> k
# [16:55] * Philip` 's usual experience of Disqus is that he scrolls to the bottom of a blog post and then waits two seconds and the comments section still hasn't loaded, so he closes the page and goes off somewhere else without even reading the existing comments
# [16:57] * jgraham wonders if dglazkov still thinks that "having XPath in HTML DOM opens up a whole new level of flexibility and just plain coding convenience for JavaScript developers"
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# [17:22] * karlcow fears that more and more information goes on G+ closed system
# [17:23] * timeless chuckles
# [17:23] <annevk> I rather it goes there than lost in the minds of people
# [17:23] <karlcow> qotd
# [17:23] <annevk> have it go*
# [17:23] * smaug____ has given up using his google account
# [17:24] <annevk> valuable feedback for the platform is :)
# [17:24] <annevk> I can see how that can be interpreted in various ways :)
# [17:24] <karlcow> /dev/null+
# [17:24] <karlcow> /dev/nullgle+
# [17:25] <annevk> heh
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# [17:26] <annevk> In general though I think it's important that we try out new things and see how they go
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# [17:27] <annevk> Lets try to learn from our conservative predecessors :)
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# [17:28] <zewt> sometimes i feel like i'm playing an adventure game editing comments in gmail
# [17:29] <zewt> i remove text before a quote, and it moves quote headers around in seemingly random ways
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# [17:35] <annevk> zcorpan: find() would not be on Window
# [17:35] <annevk> zcorpan: it's for Document/DocumentFragment/Element
# [17:35] <annevk> zcorpan: and maybe NodeArray
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# [17:42] <zcorpan> annevk: ok. still, a bit confusing if window.find() and document.find() exist and do very different things
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# [17:44] <jarek> annevk: why CSSOM sucks so much? :/
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# [17:45] <jarek> annevk: I'm just reading http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#the-cssrule-interface and there are few improvements
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# [17:47] <jarek> e.g. there doesn't seem to be a way to get a list of declarations from CSSStyleRule
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# [17:49] <annevk> latest XKCD is pretty cool
# [17:50] <annevk> jarek: yes there is: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#cssstylerule
# [17:50] <annevk> jarek: specially, .style
# [17:51] <annevk> jarek: the reason it sucks though, I don't know, it was designed before my time
# [17:51] <jarek> annevk: ohh, that's awkward
# [17:51] <jarek> annevk: why can't we have a full representation of stylesheet in JSON-like format?
# [17:51] <annevk> jarek: when Java was still popular in standards bodies and jQuery was -10 years old
# [17:53] <jarek> do you know any better object representation for CSS?
# [17:53] <annevk> jarek: not really
# [17:53] <annevk> jarek: I just wanted to document what was out there
# [17:53] <annevk> though apparently the CSS WG thinks I'm interested in new features
# [17:54] <annevk> not sure how that happened
# [17:54] <annevk> I had some plans for a better value API, but there's little traction thus far
# [17:54] <jarek> I'm building custom CSS parser, so I thought about outputting simillar objects to CSSOM
# [17:54] <annevk> ah I see
# [17:55] <annevk> in JavaScript?
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# [17:55] <jarek> yeah
# [17:55] <annevk> cool
# [17:55] <jarek> but after reading the spec I dropped this idea :P
# [17:55] <annevk> fair enough
# [17:55] <annevk> I'm not sure how we get this design to be honest and improving it is kind of hard
# [17:55] <annevk> people have all kinds of different uses for CSS
# [17:56] <jarek> annevk: it would good engough if the stylesheet was represented as a tree
# [17:56] <jarek> e.g. first there is styleRule
# [17:56] <jarek> then there is styleRule.declarations, and styleRule.selectors.selector, and...
# [17:57] <annevk> it's basically a tree at this point
# [17:57] <annevk> declarations are just stored in a map
# [17:58] <annevk> a CSSRule is either a selector/declaration block, or an at-rule
# [17:58] <jarek> annevk: but the tree is not very deep, e.g. you can't access simple selectors to calculate specificity
# [17:58] <erlehmann> annevk, please stop sending me mail twice. i am on the list and will get it anyway.
# [17:58] <annevk> erlehmann: please configure your settings, reply-all is standard procedure for every list I'm on
# [17:59] <annevk> erlehmann: you can configure this for the WHATWG list if that is the one that is bothering you
# [17:59] <annevk> jarek: sure, and when you have several style sheets it also does not work
# [17:59] <erlehmann> annevk, intredasting. i am all in favor of filtering on the receiving end, but i did not know that this was not an error.
# [18:00] <erlehmann> annevk, does that mean i send mail to everyone twice too?
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# [18:02] <annevk> erlehmann: depends on how you send your email I guess
# [18:02] <jarek> what's the status of this spec? http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/cssvariables/
# [18:02] <jarek> are there any chances that it will be accepted by W3C?
# [18:03] <annevk> erlehmann: I always use reply all because otherwise just the person sending the email will get the reply (the mailing list software should not change the reply-to header)
# [18:03] <jgraham> annevk: "Average cost of meal at 20 costliest SF resturants - $85.27" - apparently xkcd teaches us that food is cheap in California
# [18:03] <erlehmann> annevk, i see. there is also the case that that person may have left the list, for late replies. i have „reply to list“ in here (using sylpheed claws).
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# [18:04] <erlehmann> i thought it was an error, honest.
# [18:04] <annevk> jgraham: heh
# [18:04] <annevk> erlehmann: my software has reply list too now, maybe I should start using that
# [18:05] <annevk> erlehmann: maybe some people only look at messages addressed at them though and then they would miss it
# [18:05] <jcranmer> I prefer reply to list
# [18:05] <annevk> erlehmann: so reply all seems safer, but I could change habbit for a while and see what happens
# [18:05] <jcranmer> otherwise, the mailing list refuses to send me an email that would get filtered into the correct folder
# [18:05] <erlehmann> annevk, i see a reason for including people. as i said, i am all in favor of filtering at the recipient end
# [18:06] * jcranmer ought to break down and use gmane to access most of these mailing lists
# [18:15] <zewt> "list reply" is nice, but very few MUAs support it; i just reply-all since that's convention on these lists (and gmail doesn't have list-reply)
# [18:15] <zewt> also very few users actually understand list-reply-to
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# [18:16] <jcranmer> the MUA I have makes it easier to reply-to-list than reply-all on a mailing list message
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# [18:17] <zewt> gmail only has (afaik) reply-all and reply-to-sender; to reply to the list only i'd have to edit recipients manually every time (not going to happen)
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# [18:19] <gsnedders> jQuery JSONP has so much browser sniffing it's painful.
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# [18:24] <AryehGregor> zewt, some mailing lists have the sender as the list, so reply to sender replies to the list.
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> Wikimedia lists are all set up like that, but W3C lists seem not to be.
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> It always made much more sense to me, as a convention.
# [18:25] <kennyluck> AryehGregor, do Wikimedia lists have public archives as well?
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> kennyluck, yes.
# [18:25] <zewt> AryehGregor: that's horrible
# [18:26] <zewt> the sender is the person who sent the message; i shouldn't have to jump hoops if i want to reply to someone directly
# [18:26] * AryehGregor shrugs
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> Reply to sender is rarely what people want, on lists.
# [18:27] <kennyluck> The reason why I guess W3C is doing this is to make to think twice if you are criticizing people and don't want that to be public.
# [18:27] <zewt> kennyluck: no, it's because it's how almost all lists work
# [18:27] <kennyluck> hmm… OK
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# [18:29] * Philip` remembers lots of discussion about the mailing list sender settings when public-html was first set up
# [18:29] <Philip`> (and lots of discussions about how mailing lists were obsolete and rubbish)
# [18:30] <Philip`> (I think the discussion went on for weeks with hundreds of messages, and ended up with nothing changing)
# [18:32] <zewt> mailing lists are still the best approach for detailed conversations
# [18:33] <zewt> forums are handy for casual conversation (fewer steps to jump in with one reply to a running conversation if you're not a member in advance), but not a fan for technical discussions
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# [18:38] <AryehGregor> Okay, finally.
# [18:38] <AryehGregor> Solution: log out, log in to GNOME Classic desktop, gnome-panel will be right-clickable. Delete the top panel. Go back to Unity, and the bottom panel will remain.
# [18:39] <AryehGregor> Why in heaven's name this process is necessary or even works, I don't know, but I finally have what I want.
# [18:39] <AryehGregor> Now I need to look into that Alt-Tab behavior . . .
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# [18:42] <AryehGregor> Too bad I can't post a response here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11300607#post11300607
# [18:43] <zewt> locked threads are one of the reasons forums tend to be terrible
# [18:43] <zewt> people arbitrarily deciding that nobody could possibly have anything useful to say about a topic, so they should be prevented from doing so
# [18:43] <AryehGregor> To be fair, I didn't generally allow that on the forum I ran.
# [18:44] <AryehGregor> Also to be fair, forums tend to become cesspits much more readily than mailing lists, for whatever reason.
# [18:44] <AryehGregor> Maybe just because of how they're used.
# [18:45] <zewt> if someone locks a topic i'm writing on, even odds i'll just stop going to the forum entirely
# [18:46] <AryehGregor> If nobody ever locks topics, most forums tend to become places nobody will want to go to in the first place.
# [18:46] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Maybe it's because mailing lists appeal to more old-fashioned people, so they typically have more mature communities
# [18:46] <zewt> that's silly; it's even easier to ignore uninteresting topics on forums than lists
# [18:46] <AryehGregor> Anyway: so it seems like the theory is that in Ubuntu 11.10, Alt-Tab switches between applications and Alt-` switches between windows in the same application. This might at least be tolerable, despite being a completely gratuitous break from the behavior of every OS in the universe for the last zillion years, except that Alt-Tab sometimes still does switch between windows in the same application.
# [18:46] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
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# [18:47] <zewt> AryehGregor: sounds like somebody with very little UI experience trying to be too "clever"
# [18:47] <AryehGregor> zewt, most forums are a bunch of bored teenagers whose idea of fun is to post off-topic nonsense.
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# [18:47] <zewt> when it comes to fundamental UIs, "clever" is bad
# [18:48] <AryehGregor> zewt, or they have UI experience but are being pushed to get new and exciting changes out the door so their marketing department can point to all the cool progress they're making.
# [18:48] <AryehGregor> That's a major problem with Ubuntu right now.
# [18:48] <AryehGregor> They're trying to be ambitious but don't have the resources to do it right, so they push out all kinds of changes that are half-baked.
# [18:48] <AryehGregor> I don't actually think Unity is so bad, I just think it really needs a lot more refinement before it makes sense to inflict it on people by default.
# [18:48] <zewt> i never use linux as a desktop, but ubuntu (and to a lesser extent debian) tends to make unwelcome changes on the server-side, too
# [18:49] <gavinc> Of course Apple never just changes things to make things exciting and new
# [18:49] <zewt> changing stuff that's been around forever, which every linux user in the world knows how to deal with, for something new and shiny and invariably brittle
# [18:49] <zewt> upstart needs to die
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> gavinc, sure they do, but they have the resources to do it right.
# [18:50] <AryehGregor> zewt, SysV init is what needs to die. It's horrible for performance and maintainability. I have no strong opinion on Upstart vs. systemd, though.
# [18:51] <zewt> upstart broke on a system and after hours of trying to figure out how i was supposed to diagnose it, i just threw up my hands and reinstalled
# [18:51] <Philip`> zewt: Maybe the idea is that people who aren't Linux users (but are potential users) don't know how to deal with it yet, but they're the important people (since they will drive the growth of Linux and Linux-related companies), so the benefits of sticking with a familiar but inferior solution are lessened
# [18:51] <AryehGregor> I don't think I've had any trouble with Upstart itself, although I remember once the mysqld start script gave me a lot of grief.
# [18:52] <zewt> Philip`: put differently, "we don't care about existing users, we need our new shinies"
# [18:52] <AryehGregor> Philip`, that argues for trying to copy Windows conventions, not make up ones that no one anywhere has ever used.
# [18:55] <zewt> expecting everyone to learn a completely new system is pushing a huge effort onto existing users
# [18:55] <gavinc> So?
# [18:55] <zewt> what?
# [18:55] <gavinc> Apple got/gets great press and lots of new users by throwing plenty of old users under the bus
# [18:55] <gavinc> I don'
# [18:55] <zewt> AryehGregor: well, for that particular case, windows's conventions for startup and service maintenance are pretty much "mysterious black box" even to most advanced users, heh
# [18:55] <gavinc> t think the issue is so much change, as it is that Unity isn't very good yet
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> Okay, the "Bias alt-tab sorting prefer windows on the current viewport" setting in CompizConfig Settings Manager seems to have fixed the Alt-Tab behavior.
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> zewt, I've found that to generally be true of Windows. Linux is often annoying and poorly designed, but I can almost always diagnose and fix problems with a bit of work.
# [18:56] <AryehGregor> Windows is more likely to work correctly out of the box, but if it breaks, good luck fixing it.
# [18:56] <AryehGregor> You can only hope someone on some forum posted a voodoo-magic solution that will mysteriously work.
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# [18:56] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, just use XFCE.
# [18:57] <zewt> with init.d i can; upstart, well, i could have spent the time to figure it out, but it looked like a ... well, like a closed black-box, which was making diagnosing my problem very hard; i had no interest in learning more about it
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> Windows gurus are people who've memorized archaic configuration menus without really knowing what they're doing. Linux gurus are people who write patches for their desktop.
# [18:57] <erlehmann> zewt, does upstart not react to service?
# [18:57] <zewt> i tried to get it into a diagnostics mode to tell me what it was doing, and it went into full-blown developer debug mode, spewing endless pages of low-level detail, which didn't help in the slightest
# [18:57] <erlehmann> like service pulseaudio status?
# [18:57] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, that is fun.
# [18:57] <jarek> I wish Windows 98 was still supported, it's GUI was 10 times more productive than current shells
# [18:57] <zewt> i don't know; i switched back to debian
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, I've only written one.
# [18:58] <jarek> s/it's/its
# [18:58] <zewt> (i don't recall what the problem I was having was, but it was preventing the system from booting)
# [18:58] <erlehmann> jarek, just install XFCE?
# [18:58] <AryehGregor> Like a while ago, I created a laptop account for my fiancée. Logging in didn't work. It took like ten minutes for me to figure out the problem, which I reported, and I got a prompt response to my bug.
# [18:58] <gavinc> erlehmann: service works fine with upstart
# [18:58] <erlehmann> gavinc, good.
# [18:58] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, sounds nice.
# [18:58] <jarek> erlehmann: I'm using XFCE right now, it's far behind Gnome 2.x and Win98 in terms of usability
# [18:59] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, any new accounts created on my parents' Windows 7 laptop don't work. I spent at least half an hour trying to debug it, but none of the fixes I found by Googling the error message worked, and I still have not the slightest idea what the actual problem is.
# [18:59] <jarek> e.g. I can't rearange menu items or unmount pendrive
# [18:59] <AryehGregor> So I just use my father's account if I have to use their laptop.
# [18:59] <zewt> winxp had the general UI pretty much right; they broke a *lot* in 7
# [18:59] <erlehmann> jarek, with the exception that xfdesktop cannot into single click, what is missing?
# [18:59] <erlehmann> the panel is better than gnome2
# [18:59] <AryehGregor> zewt, isn't Debian switching to upstart?
# [18:59] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I liked the Xfce panel too.
# [18:59] <AryehGregor> I used it for a while.
# [18:59] <zewt> AryehGregor: dunno, but the universal law of computing is that everything always gets worse, and that would be a logical consequence of that law
# [18:59] * Philip` is currently using Win7 and KDE, and doesn't get particularly upset by either of them
# [19:00] <gavinc> Yes, debian is switching and redhat already did (but is switching away again)
# [19:00] <AryehGregor> zewt, SysV init is horrifying for boot performance. Everything has to be run serially, from shell scripts.
# [19:00] <zewt> "boot performance"? who cares about how long it takes to boot?
# [19:00] <zewt> i'd find it hard to think of anything i care about less
# [19:00] <jarek> erlehmann: in Gnome 2.x I could open any remote filesystem by clicking on Panel -> Places
# [19:00] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, i have noticed the opposite: windows takes a lot of work to be „just right“. it has no usable mediaplayer out of the box, nor a good editor. i even recently installed debian, because my girlfriend's laptop did not work with windows out of the box, but it did with debian (the driver CD had different drivers than the ones usable the hardware)
# [19:00] <Philip`> zewt: Lots of people don't seem to have discovered suspend-to-RAM yet
# [19:01] <AryehGregor> zewt, people who just installed Linux for the first time, and the first thing they see is that it boots really quickly compared to Windows?
# [19:01] <erlehmann> jarek intredasting. then we need to improve XFCE, until it becomes the new gnome2!
# [19:01] <erlehmann> Philip`, Win7 IS KDE4. mind = blown :D
# [19:01] <tantek> AryehGregor: The problem with forums turning into cesspools more than email lists - any specific instances? Was it perhaps due to a lack of active community management?
# [19:01] <zewt> it's the stupidest possible reason to change to a completely different, poorly-designed boot/service management system
# [19:02] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, Windows has no usable default programs, that's absolutely true. Its hardware support is also much more obnoxious than Linux's in many ways. But it fails less often in ways that require you to actually understand your computer to fix it.
# [19:02] <zewt> (i use notepad.exe all the time, heh)
# [19:02] <zewt> calc.exe used to be decent; they sort of made it crap in 7
# [19:02] * Quits: c_t_montgomery (~c_t_montg@wufiguest-pat4.nts.wustl.edu) (Quit: c_t_montgomery)
# [19:02] <AryehGregor> tantek, mostly the forums I've been on were a bunch of teenagers hanging out, and the mailing lists I've been on were mostly targeted professional-ish things. So it might be totally unrelated to the medium.
# [19:03] <zewt> (for less trivial apps, they're not the OS's job to provide anyway; windows isn't a "distribution" in the sense linux systems normally are)
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# [19:03] * Quits: Margle (~Margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [19:04] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, the problem is that I know no one who can tell me if „change this registry key“ is the correct solution. with linux, that is kind of logical. and even my ten year old sister can type „apt-get“. (in fact, she seems to prefer it to a graphical package manager, since that takes longer)
# [19:04] <erlehmann> zewt, if i get an operating system, i want usable defaults. part of that is having something like gedit and not something like notepad.
# [19:05] <zewt> *shrug*
# [19:05] <zewt> for serious editing i want vim; i don't care what the default is
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# [19:06] <erlehmann> hell, even „we know best, don't change anything“ OS X has somewhat usable defaults though their network manager lacks polish.
# [19:06] <erlehmann> and their theming support was often grounds for me to confuzzle mac users „can you make it less blue-grayish?“
# [19:06] <erlehmann> ;)
# [19:06] <gsnedders> zewt: The default matters when you can't install anything.
# [19:07] <AryehGregor> Windows probably has terrible defaults for antitrust reasons.
# [19:07] <AryehGregor> If they bundled a good text editor, they'd get in trouble. They already got in trouble for bundling a usable browser, and these days an OS might as well be totally unusable if it doesn't have a browser.
# [19:07] <zewt> if you can't install anything, you're either on someone else's system (in which case notepad is fine for quick editing), or you're on a corporate system (in which case the blame lies with your IT staff, not Microsoft)
# [19:08] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-211-135-241-47.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:09] <erlehmann> zewt, or on an iDevice
# [19:09] <erlehmann> well, that's a corporate system
# [19:09] <erlehmann> in which case the blame lies with you, not Apple
# [19:09] <zewt> speaking of reasonable defaults, would someone please tell debuntu that traceroute should obviously be installed by default
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# [19:12] * tantek is on an idevice and wishes there was a webapp for irc that worked on it instead of having to use a native client.
# [19:13] <AryehGregor> tantek, it would have to be a privileged web app . . .
# [19:13] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-211-135-241-47.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:13] <zewt> not at all
# [19:13] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Or proxy everything
# [19:13] <zewt> you don't want to make irc connections directly from the phone anyway
# [19:13] * Philip` imagines Windows might have terrible defaults partly for compatibility reasons too, since people will write applications making assumptions about Notepad
# [19:13] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, or that.
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# [19:14] <gavinc> zewt: Well, tracepath and traceroute6 are installed by default
# [19:14] <tantek> Not to mention a decent texteditor webapp that sync'd local/web storage.
# [19:14] <zewt> traceroute is the standard, universal tool; it's not optional
# [19:14] <finnala> ack, it's a hard life in the 21 century
# [19:15] <tantek> Like an etherpad that worked offline.
# [19:15] <erlehmann> zewt, ed is the standard editor and is it on my android phone?
# [19:15] <erlehmann> yes, indeed, it is.
# [19:15] <erlehmann> but i still use nano.
# [19:15] <erlehmann> :>
# [19:15] <zewt> gross
# [19:15] <finnala> Aw yeah, Nano.
# [19:15] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-211-135-241-47.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:16] <gavinc> zewt: tracepath is not setuid, traceroute is
# [19:16] <erlehmann> tantek, why can web apps not into IRC?
# [19:16] <zewt> traceroute is one of the universal tools fundamental to any networked system. lacking it is just ridiculous
# [19:17] <zewt> even windows has it (tracert)
# [19:17] <gavinc> zewt: tracepath is traceroute minus security holes
# [19:17] <tantek> Eg freenode with secure logins over ssl
# [19:18] <zewt> gavinc: contrived; if traceroute was insecure, it wouldn't be in the distro at all
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# [19:19] <Philip`> Web browsers are insecure, and they're in the distro
# [19:19] <zewt> (tracepath is also not installed by default in debian; at least in my install)
# [19:21] <zewt> (it's also no reason to have a separate tool and expect everyone to figure out which tool to use on which system; the correct thing would be to provide a subset of traceroute with the same UI, using alternatives to switch)
# [19:21] <cfq> tantek: how about irccloud? --> https://irccloud.com/
# [19:21] <erlehmann> zewt, it is one command away, don't whine.
# [19:21] <zewt> ...
# [19:21] <erlehmann> whereas not having a dozen usable apps on windows is a pain.
# [19:21] <zewt> erlehmann <- -1
# [19:21] <zewt> heh
# [19:22] <erlehmann> ?
# [19:22] <zewt> again, windows is not a distro; it doesn't attempt to be--and the last thing i want is lots (more) windows bloat with it trying to package a bunch more stuff
# [19:23] <zewt> (bloat is one serious problem in windows; I think 64-bit Win7 is on the order of 15 gigs, which is a huge chunk of an SSD)
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# [19:25] * Philip` has 20GB in C:\Windows (with 64-bit Win7 and patches and various applications)
# [19:25] <zewt> xp64 was like 4gb
# [19:25] <zewt> well, no, xp32 was; not sure about xp64 off-hand
# [19:25] <Philip`> (Luckily someone convinced me to get a 128GB SSD instead of 64GB, so space hasn't been a problem yet)
# [19:25] <finnala> The problem with W7 is that it grows with each security patch
# [19:26] <Philip`> ((after moving some rarely-used Steam stuff onto the HD))
# [19:26] <zewt> it's particularly nasty for VMs
# [19:26] <gavinc> Philip`: I thought that's what Win7 was for, it's to run Steam
# [19:26] <erlehmann> zewt, with 15 GIGABYTE, i can expect SOME usable editor.
# [19:27] <zewt> "it's so bloated, what's a little more bloat" :)
# [19:27] <Philip`> gavinc: That's my main use for it
# [19:27] <erlehmann> zewt, if it were smaller, i would say, you are right. but it is not.
# [19:27] <gavinc> Philip`: Well, I guess I also use IE sometimes to test things
# [19:27] <erlehmann> it is big and still fails at usable apps.
# [19:27] <gavinc> Philip`: Clearly just need Steam OS
# [19:27] <zewt> text editor is shrug fine, but there's so much else that i need on any system that it's just one of many
# [19:29] <finnala> Steam OS. That'd be gorgeous
# [19:29] <zewt> (i use notepad all the time; the only things, for simple use, that i wish they'd fix is loading unix line endings, and undo)
# [19:29] <Philip`> gavinc: Yeah, they should make a custom OS for games and run it on some custom hardware so developers have a predictable stable platform
# [19:29] <zewt> (for anything nontrivial i just use gvim)
# [19:29] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-pnhxtgmewvrikklz)
# [19:29] <Philip`> gavinc: They could call it an Sbox or something
# [19:29] <finnala> Reminds me of those old games that ran directly from floppies
# [19:29] <zewt> "please flip the disk"
# [19:29] * Quits: cfq (~cfq@217.111.143.154) (Quit: cfq)
# [19:29] <finnala> "Plane flying too fast?" "Turbo button to the rescue"
# [19:30] <zewt> i wonder if i still have the old hole punch for apple II single-sided floppies
# [19:31] <tantek_> zewt - any hole punch would do IIRC
# [19:31] <finnala> Oldest stuff I have is my Amiga 600. Strange how up to date that thing feels even today.
# [19:31] * tantek_ will take a look at irccloud
# [19:32] <tantek_> thanks cfq
# [19:32] <tantek_> anybody have any favorite webapp text editors?
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# [19:32] <finnala> Irccloud sounds pretty badass
# [19:32] <gavinc> Philip`: Yeah! The SBox! And maybe it could come with dedicated controllers for games!
# [19:32] <zewt> heh
# [19:32] <zewt> gavinc: sad thing is, the 360 controller on the PC is one of the pieces that have recently made pc gaming a lot less painful
# [19:33] <finnala> Hmm, there's always that OnLive console
# [19:33] <gavinc> zewt: Well, at least playing 360 ports on the PC
# [19:33] <zewt> having to design games around "arbitrary collection of axes and buttons" is a pretty big limitation
# [19:33] <zewt> no, lots (maybe most, now) of pc games support the controller natively
# [19:34] <finnala> As long as my shooters will still be controlled with a mouse, I'm grand.
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# [19:34] <gavinc> Mostly as long as TF2 is controlled with a mouse I'm happy... there are other shooters?
# [19:35] <finnala> I still play some counter strike.
# [19:35] <finnala> Still, I concede.
# [19:36] * Philip` likes it when games support 360 controller and mouse+keyboard, and automatically switch all their on-screen control prompts whenever you start using a different input method
# [19:37] <gsnedders> Games like F1 2011 which you have to go into the config to change between the two are horrible
# [19:37] <gsnedders> If I login to my profile with the keyboard, I then need to go to the options to play the game with the controller.
# [19:38] <finnala> Ah well, I don't have this problem, yay for only piece of electronics being my netbook.
# [19:38] <finnala> Moving to new countries is tedious...
# [19:38] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
# [19:40] <tantek_> finnala especially when citizenship portability is still TBI in most of the world.
# [19:41] <finnala> Sweet sweet European Union.
# [19:41] <finnala> i /still/ had troubles with my taxes / banks / payslip.
# [19:43] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
# [19:44] <finnala> Ah well. I can't seem to get mIRC / chatzilla / any real IRC client to work on this computer. shell account/irssi to the rescue.
# [19:47] <erlehmann> xchat.
# [19:47] <erlehmann> mIRC is pig disgusting.
# [19:49] <zewt> mirc works fine, never liked xchat when i've tried it
# [19:49] <rillian_> it's true, it does work fine
# [19:49] <rillian_> I've been using limechat on macos. I think it also has a windows version.
# [19:50] <timeless> IRCCloud (invites available)
# [19:50] <rillian_> interesting mix of old and new ui design
# [19:50] <rillian_> but I really like the 'things being said in other channels' pane it has
# [19:50] <finnala> mirc is fine.
# [19:50] <finnala> I just need something local
# [19:50] <finnala> I tried chatzilla, but I get some sort of connection reset. Mirc does the same thing
# [19:51] <rillian_> irssi in screen is very popular
# [19:51] <finnala> I've no idea what's wrong, and I have no intention on fixing it.
# [19:51] <finnala> irssi in screen was my plan... :> Putty to the rescue
# [19:52] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [19:52] <zewt> i don't like irssi as a client at all; though i use it for irssi-proxy
# [19:52] <zewt> (which i connect to with mirc, and with andchat on my phone)
# [19:52] <finnala> I don't mind it... I guess I'm a nondiscriminating software-user
# [19:53] <timeless> AryehGregor: fwiw alt-` is also available on OS X iirc
# [19:53] <timeless> and technically BeOS had a way to do something similar w/ Twitcher
# [19:54] <timeless> (but it was shinier, more powerful)
# [19:55] <finnala> Awwrite. Irssi up and running at least.
# [19:55] <erlehmann> ii
# [19:55] <erlehmann> best irc client ever
# [19:55] <erlehmann> or so i heard
# [19:55] <timeless> zewt: Startup on Windows is solved by http://www.soluto.com/
# [19:56] <finnala> I never even tried ii
# [19:56] <finnala> I'm not sure if I even heard of it before now
# [19:57] <timeless> AryehGregor: hey, when you have time w/ your parent's laptop, ping me
# [19:58] <AryehGregor> timeless, um, why?
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# [19:59] <timeless> zewt: awww, i like the Calc.exe refresh
# [19:59] <timeless> AryehGregor: i'd like to try to solve the login problem :)
# [19:59] <zewt> i hate how i have to constantly switch modes depending on whether i want floating-point or base conversions
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# [19:59] <AryehGregor> timeless, I'm not really interested in spending the time on it.
# [20:00] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-pnhxtgmewvrikklz) (Quit: tantek_)
# [20:00] <timeless> AryehGregor: windows has simple tools because they were demos
# [20:00] <timeless> the goal was to build a commercial ecosystem
# [20:01] <timeless> by enabling partners to create and sell products
# [20:01] <timeless> plus it meant you could get the os out the door faster
# [20:01] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-7-149.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [20:01] <timeless> and you had fewer things that you'd be changing that might upset people
# [20:01] <timeless> if MS changed a setting in the Word Processor, and it was part of the OS
# [20:01] <timeless> then people would yell about that change and blame the OS
# [20:01] <timeless> this way, people can choose the Word Processor of their choice, and complain about that w/o bashing the OS
# [20:02] <timeless> When OpenOffice does something stupid, you don't blame Linux/Debian/Red Hat
# [20:02] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [20:02] <timeless> this is actually valuable for each of those groups
# [20:03] <timeless> Philip`: and yes, people do write things expecting notepad to exist in a given place and to work a certain way
# [20:03] <timeless> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2010/01/28/9954432.aspx is one place where that's discussed
# [20:03] <zewt> (but the backwards-compatibility problem isn't as pronounced as it is with, say, breaking web APIs)
# [20:03] <timeless> another is the disaster where people have an editor that forks and talks to itself and quits
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# [20:04] <timeless> if someone spawns EDITOR and expects it to be able to monitor the spawned process and then use the result to decide that the user has updated the file
# [20:04] * Quits: tantek-ipod (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-ztdlcutyilnakdwa) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [20:04] <timeless> and someone foolishly replaces EDITOR with something that exits immediately before the user can change the file, then... pain
# [20:04] <zewt> that's just a basic API issue
# [20:05] <timeless> zewt's right about the notepad / guest user / corporate lockdown
# [20:05] <zewt> defining what launching an editor application is supposed to do
# [20:05] * Joins: finnala^ (~finn@www.shrineofseals.net)
# [20:05] <finnala^> Now we're talking
# [20:05] <timeless> well, people who write replacements don't think about what they're replacing
# [20:06] * Parts: finnala (2e075893@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.7.88.147)
# [20:06] <timeless> consider the dozens of terrible Minesweeper knockoffs
# [20:06] <zewt> overly-broad statement
# [20:06] <timeless> and the dozens of terrible so.exe knockoffs
# [20:06] <zewt> many do, some don't, depending on competence
# [20:06] <timeless> s/so/sol/
# [20:06] <timeless> will you accept "the vast majority"?
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# [20:07] <zewt> if you discard the ones that nobody actually cares about, probably not
# [20:07] * Joins: tantek-ipod (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-umfrhnaabkredska)
# [20:08] <zewt> ("jimmy's weekend hack editor for my cs201 project, released as 10-second-delay 90s nagware")
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# [20:08] <timeless> finnala^: would you like an irccloud invite
# [20:08] <zewt> i actually hit a nagware-delay program the other day; "nostalgic" would not be the word i'd use
# [20:08] <finnala^> That would be sweet indeed.
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# [20:09] <timeless> Philip`: they should make XBox360? :)
# [20:09] * Parts: katylava_ (~katylava@24.173.67.74)
# [20:09] <timeless> finnala^: /msg me your email address
# [20:09] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
# [20:10] * timeless reaches now now
# [20:10] * Joins: finnala_ (2e075893@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.7.88.147)
# [20:10] <finnala_> Sorry, got disconnected there for a second
# [20:10] <timeless> finnala^: /msg me your email address
# [20:10] <finnala_> Sure, one moment.
# [20:10] <timeless> irccloud solves disconnections too :)
# [20:10] * tantek has signed up for a beta invite to https://irccloud.com/ - and now the wait.
# [20:10] <timeless> tantek: i can just send you an invite
# [20:11] <zewt> ff8 broke my anti-animated-favicon userChrome.css hack D:
# [20:11] <timeless> then it's a race between me trying to send one and james getting your request and seding one
# [20:11] <timeless> s/sed/send/
# [20:11] * timeless lost the last such race
# [20:11] <timeless> zewt: what did your hack do?
# [20:11] <timeless> or perhaps, how did you do it?
# [20:11] <finnala_> timeless: Can you forward it to faa@mm.st please? :)
# [20:11] <timeless> done
# [20:12] <finnala_> Sweet. Thanks.
# [20:12] <zewt> .tab-icon-image[src $= ".gif"] { visibility: hidden; }
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# [20:12] <timeless> tantek: seriously, i have 2 left today, if you're in a hurry :)
# [20:12] <zewt> some false positives but worth it
# [20:12] <timeless> oh, ick
# [20:12] <timeless> technically you could have false negatives
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# [20:12] <tantek> timeless - cool, sign me up!
# [20:12] <zewt> since firefox devs apparently actually think animated tab icons are okay (they're not)
# [20:12] <timeless> tantek: email address?
# [20:13] <tantek> pm
# [20:13] <timeless> done
# [20:13] <finnala_> So, now to see how well this thing works
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# [20:13] <zewt> hmm, works now, guess it was just a random miss
# [20:13] <timeless> zewt: better than someone using js to animate it by setInterval(... document.getElementById("link-favicon").href=...)
# [20:14] <timeless> people often save their favicon (even .gif) as favicon.ico :)
# [20:14] <zewt> i don't think you can change the favicon after the page loads
# [20:14] <timeless> that's probably how you missed it
# [20:14] <timeless> you should be able to...
# [20:14] <zewt> really really need a css "stop animations" style
# [20:14] <timeless> yes
# [20:14] <zewt> but i'm not putting the energy into fighting for that, heh
# [20:15] <finnala_> The irccloud page is... weird...
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# [20:15] <timeless> oh, that sucks
# [20:16] <timeless> zewt: ok
# [20:16] <timeless> if you delete the <link> node from the dom, and reinsert it, you'll get an updated image
# [20:16] <timeless> so yes it's a little bit more painful
# [20:16] <timeless> but only a little more work, and js can trivially manage that :)
# [20:16] <zewt> could also rate limit it
# [20:16] * timeless animated the favicon from irccloud to the google logo for testing
# [20:19] <zewt> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111373 today's the decade anniversary of this bug, so yeah, not holding out much hope
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# [20:20] <finnala> Okay. This at least gives the appearance of working.
# [20:21] * finnala is now known as finn_irccloud
# [20:22] <finn_irccloud> Thanks for the invite.
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# [20:27] <timeless> zewt: there's a patch from this year
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# [20:49] <heycam> annevk, yeah having the union directly as the operation argument type seems ok to me
# [20:51] <annevk> can you overload attributes currently?
# [20:51] <annevk> it could be used for those too
# [20:51] <annevk> basically
# [20:51] <annevk> if we have union in this way
# [20:52] <annevk> we may not need multiple method definitions anymore
# [20:52] <annevk> unless you want to make the second argument dependent on the first and such
# [20:52] <annevk> not sure if we have that and not sure if it's a good idea
# [20:52] <annevk> oh
# [20:52] <annevk> canvas.toDataURL() has some of that
# [20:55] <erlehmann> zewt, http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/11/21/1814228/ms-to-build-antivirus-into-win8-boon-or-monopoly
# [20:55] <erlehmann> but still no good editor. for antitrust reasons. sure.
# [20:56] <finnala> Such is life in the Microsoft world
# [20:58] <annevk> wow
# [20:58] <annevk> /. is still there
# [20:58] * annevk didn't know
# [20:59] <finnala> The strange part is that it's still fairly good, in my opinion anyway.
# [20:59] <finnala> I thought anything that stayed on the net for too long got corrupted
# [20:59] <Philip`> Is Digg dead yet?
# [21:00] <erlehmann> digg exists?
# [21:00] <erlehmann> annevk, slashdot is still there. but still no good editor. for antitrust reasons ;)
# [21:01] <finnala> Digg still exists, but it's truly a shell of what it once was
# [21:05] <annevk> could someone do me a favor and make a highres PNG out of http://www.whatwg.org/images/logo.svg ?
# [21:06] <annevk> 256x256/512x512 is probably enough
# [21:06] <annevk> for the Google+ page
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# [21:07] <finnala> lol dunno why but that logo makes me think this is all some kind of practical joke
# [21:08] <annevk> did you read our tagline?
# [21:08] <finnala> I believe I might have
# [21:08] <finnala> "leave all sense of logic at the door" or something.
# [21:09] <annevk> anyway, the logo is definitely inspired by "WHAT"
# [21:10] <finnala> http://i.imgur.com/ttEaX.png
# [21:10] <finnala> is that what you needed?
# [21:10] <annevk> and leading up to the creation of the WHATWG there was a series of blog posts along the lines of "I wonder /what wg/ will work on this?"
# [21:10] <annevk> thanks
# [21:10] <finnala> No stress.
# [21:10] <zewt> W:D
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# [21:11] <annevk> https://plus.google.com/110228011578241735536/ is a little prettier now
# [21:12] <finnala> looking good.
# [21:14] <finnala> What do you think of that Diaspora social network?
# [21:14] <finnala> I mean I kind of hope it breaks through and becomes something, but it feels unlikely
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# [21:15] <annevk> never tried it
# [21:15] <erlehmann> finnala, i am planning to do a talk whose title can be literally translated as “no one needs diaspora”
# [21:15] <finnala> Haha
# [21:15] <erlehmann> it does not solve any user problem, only tries to emulate facebook
# [21:15] <finnala> I'm not so sure, myself.
# [21:16] <finnala> I think one problem is that Facebook has grown too big to fail, and alternative networks will be doomed to fail
# [21:16] <erlehmann> finnala, it tells the big lie that “with just checking this box, your private data will be secure”
# [21:16] <annevk> just like hunters have trophies I should have something similar for features I got killed from the web
# [21:16] <annevk> latest addition: document.height & document.width
# [21:16] <erlehmann> annevk, hahaha
# [21:16] <annevk> now removed from Gecko and WebKit
# [21:17] <finnala> Oh like that. To be honest, I haven't thought much about the privact of my data.
# [21:17] <erlehmann> finnala, when me and another guy asked a dev at re:publica conference why they did not use existing open standards, he gave a null response.
# [21:17] <finnala> I agree with that sentiment.
# [21:18] <erlehmann> the host then told the audience to not ask technical questions. no one asked any question.
# [21:18] <finnala> You raise a good point.
# [21:18] <zewt> "don't ask questions that make the speaker uncomfortable"
# [21:19] <finnala> Still I believe we need a more "open" social network
# [21:19] <erlehmann> zewt, not that. he literally gave no usable answer.
# [21:19] <annevk> is jake here on IRC?
# [21:19] <finnala> Or actually, more than one
# [21:19] <annevk> Jake Verbaten that is
# [21:19] <finnala> Whether or not we use Diaspora is not something I really care about
# [21:19] <erlehmann> zewt, i honestly believe the host wanted to avoid him wasting our time. because he did not say “i don't know” or similar
# [21:20] <erlehmann> finnala, publishing data in not-interoperable form in someone else's namespace is a problem.
# [21:20] <finnala> I guess I agree.
# [21:20] <finnala> I'll be waiting for your article, in that case. :)
# [21:20] <erlehmann> finnala, what is the problem with just using blogs, feeds and feedreaders, mailinglists, email, xmpp? if it is the interface, work on that.
# [21:21] <finnala> Maybe it is the interface. I'm not sure what the problem is. What I do know is that Facebook has a giantic userbase that is essentially disconnected from the rest of the internet, save some privacy-invading "chats" and "like buttons"
# [21:22] <erlehmann> finnala, if my talk will not be accepted (which is likely, a discussion panel on the open web got only accepted last-minute) i may write an article outlining it.
# [21:23] <finnala> Well I'm happy you take the time to give your opinion on it. I look forward to it.
# [21:23] <erlehmann> finnala, google+ continues this, with less “you can't see this” and an even less usable interface.
# [21:23] <Hixie_> nice, a google+ page
# [21:24] <Hixie_> i thought of doing one myself but figured i'd be accused of some sort of google-centric something or other
# [21:24] * Hixie_ is now known as Hixie
# [21:24] <erlehmann> finnala, it really is not a difficult thing to go through the motions, collecting all the points. diaspora will scratch none of the issues people have with facebook.
# [21:24] <annevk> Hixie_: I didn't realize I would be the only one who could maintain it :(
# [21:24] <annevk> Hixie: hopefully that's temporary
# [21:24] <Hixie> i expect so
# [21:24] <Hixie> but have no information one way or the other
# [21:24] <finnala> erlehmann: I think I might start to get where you're coming from. Sorry, sometimes I can be a bit slow.
# [21:25] <erlehmann> finnala, no problem. i think for most people listening to that is only possible because the hype has subsided.
# [21:25] <erlehmann> the “we'll produce something in a few month” hype
# [21:25] <erlehmann> months
# [21:26] <annevk> Hixie: people seem to like it though, so that's good
# [21:26] <erlehmann> annevk, brought upon it yourself. if there were only some way to fill it dynamically, with some kind of … feed!
# [21:26] <annevk> Hixie: although it did create a mini-thread on whatwg@
# [21:26] <erlehmann> you could auto-post the blog articles there. is that possible?
# [21:26] <Hixie> yeah, reading that now :-)
# [21:26] <erlehmann> mea culpa.
# [21:26] <annevk> erlehmann: I don't know if there's an API
# [21:26] <annevk> erlehmann: haven't really looked to be honest
# [21:27] <annevk> erlehmann: it's not a big deal either way
# [21:27] <zewt> erlehmann: if comments end up on g+, or end up fragmented between the blog and g+, then that's a minus
# [21:27] <erlehmann> annevk, they don't even have feeds. what do you expect? but you surely could make a userscript or two.
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# [21:27] <zewt> at least they finally fixed g+ on apps
# [21:27] <erlehmann> zewt, i agree to the fullest extent allowed by law.
# [21:28] <zewt> it was rather irritating that google kept shoving "try g+!" at me, with links that say "you can't use g+!"
# [21:28] <annevk> comments already end up on twitter, the blog, IRC, forums, etc.
# [21:28] <annevk> maybe on reddit occasionally
# [21:28] <annevk> or hackernews
# [21:28] <annevk> people's personal blog
# [21:28] <finnala> Hehe. It is kind of hard to keep track of what is what, to be honest.
# [21:28] <annevk> that's the way the world works
# [21:28] <erlehmann> annevk, that is like the opposite of the perfect solution fallacy.
# [21:29] <annevk> I think it's great personally
# [21:29] <erlehmann> “because everything is crap, let's produce more crap.”
# [21:29] <annevk> why would want centralized control over people's thoughts
# [21:29] <erlehmann> not without usable backlinks.
# [21:29] <annevk> that way lies madness
# [21:29] <erlehmann> not centralized. but pingbacks or stuff.
# [21:29] <finnala> Well, that's basically what the general person has now though, through Facebook
# [21:29] <erlehmann> madness.
# [21:30] <finnala> I mean, some people might use Reddit, blogs. But the general populace place on the net is definitely Facebook
# [21:30] <erlehmann> is that so.
# [21:30] <erlehmann> dunno.
# [21:30] <zewt> in every way lies madness; life is merely your choice of madness
# [21:30] <erlehmann> i know people who use twitter a lot.
# [21:30] <erlehmann> and people who use facebook for invites.
# [21:30] <erlehmann> zewt, U MAD?
# [21:30] <zewt> quite
# [21:30] <finnala> I don't think any of my collegues use anything but Facebook
# [21:32] <finnala> I guess as long as the alternatives are there there's no real reason to panic.
# [21:32] <annevk> I have Facebook, but that's not where most of creative output goes
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# [21:37] <jgraham> We ned a lyskom instance for the spec!
# [21:37] <jgraham> Or at least a conference on lyslyskom
# [21:37] <jgraham> or whatever it's called
# [21:38] <erlehmann> jgraham, what is lyskom?
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# [21:39] <jgraham> It's <del>pure evil</del>a messaging system invented at Linkoping university
# [21:39] <finnala> Don't trust Scandinavians.
# [21:39] <jgraham> Which never really made it outside the city gates
# [21:39] <Ms2ger> I hear Opera has an office there, they must be evil as well
# [21:39] <jgraham> The people who like it *really* *really* like it
# [21:40] <erlehmann> finnala, a lot of my friends use imageboards, well, i even met my girlfriend through an imageboard. in my culture, moot is the hero and zuckerberg the villain. blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne!
# [21:40] <jgraham> They go on about how the whole thing being a directed graph is teh awesomes
# [21:40] <erlehmann> jgraham, it it an open standard? if not, fail.
# [21:40] <finnala> imageboards are nice. I grew up with messageboards/forums, myself.
# [21:40] <jgraham> (notice I didn't say acyclic)
# [21:40] <finnala> Didn't have internet for the longest time.
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# [21:41] <finnala> Lyskom sounds scary.
# [21:41] <erlehmann> jgraham, go make a better „who kissed whom“ than me using your directed graph knowledge!
# [21:41] <jgraham> And abou how it is great that you can move messages around, reedit them and generally break every invariant that might make it possible to build a good UI
# [21:42] <erlehmann> jgraham, so it is … multiplayer notepad?
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# [21:42] <finnala> Like Google Wave but with extra nerd.
# [21:42] <jgraham> erlehmann: It is sort of an open standard. http://www.lysator.liu.se/lyskom/protocol/
# [21:43] <erlehmann> jgraham, if „sort of“ means there is only one implementation, triple fail.
# [21:43] <jgraham> erlehmann: Since the only client that isn't "for n00bs" (not my words) is in emacs, I doubt anyone using lyskom has been doing much kissing
# [21:44] <jgraham> erlehmann: I have no idea how many server implementations there are. There are multiple client implementations that all suck
# [21:44] <erlehmann> jgraham, hey, i got the same response when i presented that thing at a pub.
# [21:44] <finnala> You presented /what/ at a pub?
# [21:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: already well ingrained in Mozilla messaging I see :p
# [21:45] <erlehmann> finnala, oh. that was unfortunately worded. http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/wer-kuesst-wen
# [21:45] <Ms2ger> annevk, I cannot comment on behalf of Mozilla :)
# [21:45] <finnala> Breaking out the German stuff, I see.
# [21:45] <erlehmann> finnala, wait.
# [21:45] <erlehmann> http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/wer-kuesst-wen/?json=internet-elite.json
# [21:45] <erlehmann> i got sample data
# [21:46] <erlehmann> hehe
# [21:46] <jgraham> erlehmann: QC doesn't have a very well connected network
# [21:46] <erlehmann> people are URLs
# [21:46] <erlehmann> jgraham, click the second link then
# [21:46] <finnala> Germany scares me
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# [21:46] <finnala> This is a novel concept though.
# [21:46] <finnala> I think I like it
# [21:47] <jgraham> erlehmann: TMI :)
# [21:47] <erlehmann> finnala, people have names and URLs. i get the avatars from the URLs.
# [21:47] <jgraham> (also your graph layout algorithm doesn't work very well)
# [21:47] <erlehmann> jgraham, this is a very crappy hack. everyone knowing something about web apps or data journalism did not want to help me.
# [21:48] <jgraham> Fair enough :) It's not an easy problem AIUI
# [21:48] <erlehmann> they either told me it is not usable (wrong, i have amazon style recommendations: people who kissed X also kissed Y)
# [21:48] <erlehmann> or feared they would be displayed then
# [21:48] <finnala> Hahaha that is awesome
# [21:48] <finnala> But frightening
# [21:48] <erlehmann> finnala, click on „empfehlungen“
# [21:49] <erlehmann> one guy told me his girlfriend would end the relationship if she knew about this. i don't care enough about him or her to seek her out to tell.
# [21:49] <erlehmann> jgraham, the layout used web workers, until i realized i eats 10MB RAM per second that way.
# [21:49] <finnala> Remind me to delete my Facebook account if this ever reaches the masses.
# [21:49] <annevk> erlehmann: http://www.silkapp.com/ is pretty awesome at browsing data
# [21:49] <annevk> erlehmann: but it's still closed beta for now
# [21:50] <annevk> (disclaimer: from friends)
# [21:50] <Hixie> has nessy been around recently?
# [21:50] <annevk> haven't seen her
# [21:50] <erlehmann> in before “nessy has been around” and similar jokes
# [21:50] <erlehmann> finnala, this works with every web site that provides the information. but i recently had the problem that a girl had actually deleted all of her URIs. that is rare, however.
# [21:51] <erlehmann> mark pilgrim will never appear on this!
# [21:51] <erlehmann> now we know why he killed his web sites :D
# [21:51] <finnala> :)
# [21:51] <TabAtkins> I've *almost* got this graph planar, dammit
# [21:51] <erlehmann> it saves in your localstorage
# [21:51] * Quits: c_t_montgomery (~c_t_montg@wufiguest-pat4.nts.wustl.edu) (Quit: c_t_montgomery)
# [21:51] <TabAtkins> fucking artnoveua and eir promiscuity.
# [21:52] <finnala> Hahaha I noticed too!
# [21:52] <erlehmann> so you can make your own network. but careful, if the URL has a „json“ query parameter it overwrites everything.
# [21:52] <finnala> I think I'm good, man. I think I'm good
# [21:53] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, she actually asked me to add more people to a demo so she would not stand out. hahahaha.
# [21:53] <jgraham> erlehmann: You nerd sniped TabAtkins. Congratulations :)
# [21:53] <TabAtkins> Argh, goddam your graph physics.
# [21:53] <finnala> It still flummoxes me how different the atmosphere in this IRC is from the WHATWG forum.
# [21:53] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, https://github.com/erlehmann/wer-kuesst-wen
# [21:53] <finnala> I definitely like this better. Oh yes
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# [21:53] <jgraham> erlehmann: Now you need to move on to more chalenging targets
# [21:53] <TabAtkins> jgraham: One of my favorite timewasters is an old game called Planarity, which gives you a large graph and tells you to make it planar.
# [21:53] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, hey, i never thought you could combine it!
# [21:54] <TabAtkins> No physics there, so you have to do all the moving.
# [21:54] <erlehmann> achievement award, make the local hookup network not planar!
# [21:54] <TabAtkins> I don't know enough graph theory to actually do that. ;_;
# [21:55] <erlehmann> jgraham, my original project idea was much more ambitious, called „fickileaks“ (german wordplay on wikileaks) and should aggregate data from multiple sources. after the architecture was discussed, no one wanted to code much. :(
# [21:55] <finnala> Oh you Germans.
# [21:55] <erlehmann> i have yet to come to a decent RDFa aggregator and browser (which btw, is what i am wanting to do here)
# [21:56] <erlehmann> finnala, more like “you berliners”. it is different in other parts.
# [21:56] <finnala> Yeah but the other parts have other oddities
# [21:56] <erlehmann> if you could browse FOAF statements through such an interface, that would be fun.
# [21:56] <Hixie> annevk: is there still a way to filter the tracker only by changes that affect gecko?
# [21:56] <finnala> I've been to the Kieler Umschlag. I've seen things.
# [21:56] <erlehmann> finnala, less fun oddities.
# [21:57] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, jgraham, any better idea for the physics? i am thinking i'll re-implement it some time either using d3 or the javascript infoviz toolkit.
# [21:57] <finnala> If you apply enough of that fig liquor, everything becomes fun.
# [21:57] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: I have no idea.
# [21:57] <finnala> What's it called again.. I've only ever seen it in Germany
# [21:57] <erlehmann> the former can bind a graph to DOM data, the latter can do fancy vis stuff with zooming.
# [21:57] <TabAtkins> I'm just annoyed that the physics keeps making nodes drift into non-planar configurations.
# [21:57] <erlehmann> finnala, „kleiner feigling“ ?
# [21:58] <finnala> Yes. That is the stuff
# [21:58] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, the algorithm is crap.
# [21:58] <annevk> Hixie: no, nobody was using that feature
# [21:58] <Hixie> k
# [21:58] <TabAtkins> So, on actual web stuff for a moment. In http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/1038.html Boris talks about barewords in on* attributes. Can someone elaborate why this is a problem?
# [21:58] <annevk> Hixie: in practice most changes affect all implementors, too
# [21:59] <erlehmann> barewords?
# [21:59] <Hixie> annevk: well, "wgoi" always come together, yes
# [21:59] <Hixie> annevk: but those are often separate from "a", "c", and "t"
# [21:59] <annevk> TabAtkins: say the page has a global variable called "findAll"
# [21:59] <annevk> TabAtkins: if you then use findAll in an event listener that is a reference to that global variable
# [22:00] <annevk> TabAtkins: but if you define a method called findAll on the same object as that event listener is on, that will be found first and you no longer get back what you expect (the global variable)
# [22:00] <erlehmann> annevk, what is this silkapp supposed to do? i can't figure it out
# [22:00] <annevk> erlehmann: it's effectively an annotated wikipedia setup
# [22:01] <TabAtkins> annevk: Why is that an issue in this case, then? The method in question would only be defined on Element, not on window.
# [22:01] <annevk> erlehmann: and then you browse by those annotations you made
# [22:01] <annevk> erlehmann: sort of the semantic web idea
# [22:01] <annevk> erlehmann: but in practice instead of fairy land
# [22:01] <erlehmann> jgraham, regarding more challenging targets, i am making music using a stack machine. using postfix notation http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/video/glitched.ogv
# [22:01] <erlehmann> annevk, semantic web as in „usable across domains“ ?
# [22:01] <annevk> TabAtkins: because the way variable look up works
# [22:02] <erlehmann> that is karplus-strong string synthesis
# [22:02] <erlehmann> there
# [22:02] <annevk> TabAtkins: you start with the element
# [22:02] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see. Because it's defined on element, a bare "find()" call would use the element's .find method.
# [22:02] <annevk> TabAtkins: see lexical scope definitions for event handler attributes
# [22:02] <Hixie> i wonder what exactly nessy intended to imply with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-texttracks/2011Nov/att-0017/webvtt.html#snippets
# [22:02] <TabAtkins> Man, that's weird.
# [22:02] <Hixie> am i supposed to remove those attributes from HTML altogether?
# [22:02] <Hixie> duplicate the text?
# [22:02] <erlehmann> annevk, everything having “closed beta” and secret APIs is suspicious to me
# [22:02] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah, welcome to '95?
# [22:03] <TabAtkins> annevk: ;_;
# [22:03] <annevk> erlehmann: fair enough, it's pretty neat though
# [22:03] <finnala> So, is there some way to start at 95, because all of this is pretty confusing for me
# [22:03] <finnala> ;)
# [22:04] <Hixie> will have to poke at it after lunch
# [22:04] <Hixie> bbiab
# [22:04] <annevk> finnala: around when I started someone made http://htmldog.com/
# [22:04] <annevk> finnala: it seems to be still around and quite useful
# [22:04] <zewt> sometimes adding features to the web is like building a house on a foundation made of icy pebbles laid on treadmills
# [22:05] <erlehmann> annevk, i'll check back when it works. “works” implying that i can use it without registering much. like wikipedia. or 4chan.
# [22:05] <finnala> Thanks. I know most of the stuff on htmldog though. I hope at least :)
# [22:05] <annevk> finnala: if you're beyond that level, reading the specifications, history posts from hsivonen, others, ...
# [22:05] <TabAtkins> annevk: htmldog is still one of the better references on the web.
# [22:05] <erlehmann> htmldog, first thought “if you do not remove that feature, i'll shoot this dog”
# [22:05] <erlehmann> with annevk holding the gun
# [22:05] <erlehmann> :D
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> I learned a lot from that site when first learning webdev.
# [22:06] <zewt> who gets to be the dog
# [22:06] <finnala> Yeah that's what I'm doing. It felt like the difficulty level suddenly increased with DOM/Javascript.
# [22:06] <annevk> erlehmann: oh god
# [22:06] <annevk> :)
# [22:06] * Joins: Margle (~Margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za)
# [22:06] <erlehmann> annevk, seriously.
# [22:06] <erlehmann> then i clicked the link.
# [22:06] <annevk> finnala: ah yeah, getting a grasp of what is defined in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html might help
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# [22:07] <finnala> Thanks. That might indeed help.
# [22:07] <annevk> abarth: nice going on getting document.width/document.height removed
# [22:07] <abarth> thanks for filing the bug
# [22:07] <abarth> hopefully the change will stick
# [22:07] <erlehmann> we need an annevk motivational poster
# [22:07] <annevk> finnala: I learned most of the DOM when I started at Opera in not too much time
# [22:07] <erlehmann> showing that it is possible to kill features for good
# [22:08] <annevk> finnala: just write some script, see what it does, and see if it matches your expectations based on the spec
# [22:08] <annevk> finnala: or whatever works best for you
# [22:08] <finnala> That works well for me.
# [22:08] <finnala> Thanks.
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# [22:08] * tantek-ipod is now known as tantek
# [22:08] <zewt> learning the DOM (vs. "knowing all of the historical quirks") is no harder than any other API
# [22:08] <erlehmann> zewt, i wish to dispute that
# [22:09] <erlehmann> but on a subtle point
# [22:09] <annevk> zewt: maybe that's true, but the DOM is what you end up working with a lot, so it's useful to know
# [22:09] <annevk> zewt: mostly being able to read IDL is important if you want to read specs
# [22:09] <erlehmann> how hard it is is mostly not a function of how complicated something is, but how good the documentation is
# [22:09] <zewt> sure, but i mean it's not a huge endeavor (at least for an experienced developer)
# [22:09] <finnala> If you can build stuff using DOM, does that mean you could theoretically build websites without HTML?
# [22:10] <erlehmann> DOM is complicated, but documentation is extensive.
# [22:10] <finnala> Or XHTML for that matter
# [22:10] <annevk> zewt: guess you got me there :)
# [22:10] <finnala> I guess, it's kind of a silly question.
# [22:10] <zewt> finnala: some ajax-y pages are sort of like that
# [22:10] <zewt> well
# [22:10] <erlehmann> finnala, having a bare-bones thingy call a script, filling content into the page. let's not go there.
# [22:10] <zewt> not ajax per se, but heavily scripted sites
# [22:10] <erlehmann> this as a bad thing, even when google and twitter do it.
# [22:10] <zewt> but using html at some level is usually helpful
# [22:11] <erlehmann> it breaks fundamental assumptions about the web.
# [22:11] <annevk> finnala: there's usually some HTML in play to bootstrap things and using HTML is better for search engines and such
# [22:11] <zewt> erlehmann: depending on what i'm doing, i don't mind breaking someone's assumptions if they're wrong assumptions :)
# [22:11] <finnala> Oh make no mistake, I like it at HTML. HTML is homely and something I feel I understand pretty well.
# [22:11] <zewt> but again, depending entirely on the application
# [22:12] <erlehmann> zewt, i mean of the “200 means there is content” and “404 means this link is dead” type.
# [22:12] <annevk> finnala: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ might also help with getting an understanding of the DOM
# [22:12] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [22:12] <erlehmann> i wrote a link checker lately to weed out deadlinks. turned out there are some stupid webservers returning errors for HEAD.
# [22:12] <erlehmann> or returning 404, then delivering the content anyway.
# [22:12] <finnala> Thanks annevk, I'll try to use that.
# [22:13] <erlehmann> no case was special enough to break those rules. i'll just not link there then.
# [22:13] <finnala> This seems to complement HTML pretty well.
# [22:14] <erlehmann> their loss. but my frustration when trying to find out what was wrong.
# [22:14] <erlehmann> developers lie.
# [22:14] <zewt> more like bugs happen :)
# [22:14] <erlehmann> finnala, try using firebug or the chrome dev tools or opera dragonfly.
# [22:14] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126)
# [22:14] <zewt> especially in things like HEAD, which are relatively less used, easier for bugs to go unnoticed
# [22:15] <finnala> I'm using dragonfly. Mostly for CSS/ID stuff, up til now though
# [22:15] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [22:15] <erlehmann> zewt, returning 404 and then the content in a wordpress blog is a special class of bug. it is wrong in a kind of wrong way.
# [22:15] * Quits: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [22:15] <erlehmann> you are not supposed to be able to do that.
# [22:15] <zewt> that's a dumb bug for a developer, but an easy bug for an author to miss
# [22:16] <finnala> Oh dear, next will be to understand HTTP too I guess.
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# [22:16] <zewt> i'd imagine testing in IE would notice that--does IE9 still hide 404 content and replace it with a generic page?
# [22:16] <erlehmann> finnala, HTTP is pretty easy. i recommend you write your own web server and test it.
# [22:16] <annevk> there might be legitimate reasons to return 404 and still return content
# [22:16] <erlehmann> zewt, ha. thats funny.
# [22:16] <zewt> how so? heh
# [22:16] <annevk> you don't want the URL indexed, but you know what content the user is looking for
# [22:16] <Ms2ger> Helpful 404 pages?
# [22:17] <annevk> but I think WordPress typically uses a redirect
# [22:17] <annevk> for that
# [22:17] <Ms2ger> Those are all over
# [22:17] <erlehmann> the point i do not get is that it takes more code to set the headers wrong than to leave them alone.
# [22:17] <Ms2ger> http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foo
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# [22:17] <erlehmann> annevk, you could also use robots.txt
# [22:17] <finnala> That kind of 404 is very usual
# [22:17] * Quits: rillian__ (~rillian@184.71.182.138) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [22:18] <finnala> I guess I'll try to write a web server. Not on my netbook though.
# [22:18] <erlehmann> lying breaks infrastructure. people who lie about status codes also return “well, yes this domain does exist. in fact, it points to a friendly t-mobile search page”
# [22:18] <finnala> I can't wait to get my paycheck.
# [22:18] <zewt> bleh, why does FF still not support rel=noreferrer
# [22:18] <erlehmann> finnala, it is really easy. you'll admire the simplicity of HTTP if you get it done.
# [22:19] <zewt> http is simple for simple cases, but it's one of those things that's a bit nitty to get right in the wild
# [22:19] <zewt> largely for working around buggy clients, heh
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# [22:20] <erlehmann> zewt, buggy clients like chrome, telling it wants gzipped content it cannot handle. that was a nasty thing.
# [22:20] <erlehmann> out of all browsers …
# [22:20] * Quits: jonatasnona (~jonatas@lba.inpa.gov.br) (Quit: Saindo)
# [22:20] <erlehmann> if it were IE or safari, i would have understood :(
# [22:20] * hober2 is now known as hober
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# [22:20] <erlehmann> finnala, this is helpful http://redbot.org/
# [22:20] <zewt> gzip, or deflate?
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# [22:21] <zewt> breaking gzip is lame; breaking deflate would be *bad*
# [22:21] <hober> hey
# [22:21] <finnala> If only I was a developer
# [22:21] <finnala> I'm actually a law student
# [22:21] <finnala> Hey there hober
# [22:21] <finnala> I guess that's what free time is for
# [22:21] <smaug____> zewt: ah, good that you reminded... the patch to support noreferrer got review- from me... I should ask someone to update the patch
# [22:21] <erlehmann> finnala, http://redbot.org/?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.fefe.de
# [22:22] <finnala> Redbot? Even more shady German stuff? ;)
# [22:22] <erlehmann> finnala, this is a legit HTTP server diagnosis tool.
# [22:22] <erlehmann> no red light distrcict service bot, or whatever you assumed :3c
# [22:22] <finnala> Oh nice. I can try that on my own blog too.
# [22:23] <finnala> So I can also add user agents too.
# [22:23] <erlehmann> zewt, i cannot remember good enough, but i thought it was gzip. specifically media files that chrome refused to play.
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# [22:23] <Ms2ger> Also, people who want EventTarget.on probably should think about compat for window.on
# [22:24] <finnala> Thanks erlehmann, this looks pretty userful.
# [22:24] <erlehmann> userful.
# [22:24] <erlehmann> ha
# [22:24] <finnala> hahaha
# [22:24] <finnala> Typos.
# [22:24] <Yuhong> An actual security vulnerability caused by interleaving appendChild of base element with document.write:
# [22:24] <Yuhong> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=607222
# [22:25] <zewt> "userful" that sounds like an oblique insult
# [22:26] <finnala> With this I can finally get my content negotiation working
# [22:26] <Yuhong> While HTML was invented in 1991, document.write was invented in year 1996, and W3C DOM Level 1 became Recommendation in 1998 and first implemented in 1999.
# [22:26] <finnala> Userful indeed.
# [22:26] <smaug____> Ms2ger: yeah
# [22:26] <zewt> rec before the first implementation? heh
# [22:26] <Ms2ger> Oh look, it's Yuhong again
# [22:26] <smaug____> I'm pretty sure there are variables or functions named 'on'
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# [22:27] <Yuhong> zewt: Actually, first implementation *released* in 1999. It was IE5.
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# [22:28] <Yuhong> Netscape 5 "Mariner" would have implemented it too if it wasn't cancelled in late 1998.
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# [22:29] <Yuhong> Just to get the idea of the history, and note that none of them had any specified error handling.
# [22:31] <finnala> Hmmm. Opera used to send MSIE in the user agent string?
# [22:33] <Yuhong> Yea, I know. By the time Netscape 6 was released in 2000, MSIE was already becoming dominant and it was too late.
# [22:33] <finnala> 22:21 < Ms2ger> Oh look, it's Yuhong again
# [22:33] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, why is the parent selector not “<” ?
# [22:33] <finnala> whoops sorry
# [22:34] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: What do you mean? There is no parent combinator.
# [22:34] <Yuhong> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mozillazine.org%2Ftalkback.html%3Farticle%3D1708&ei=f8LKTqnGN-ihiQLppJnMCw&usg=AFQjCNGQU0fG-3MvSFWRNwIMn7O4cEkSkQ
# [22:34] <Yuhong> Correct URL: http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=1708
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# [22:35] <finnala> Uncool
# [22:35] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, won't CSS4 have a parent selector?
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# [22:35] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: No, it has a subject indicator.
# [22:35] <erlehmann> oui?
# [22:35] <TabAtkins> And it's not CSS4, it's Selectors 4.
# [22:36] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#subject
# [22:36] <finnala> Hmm
# [22:36] <TabAtkins> Something like this, if we can swing it from a performance standpoint.
# [22:36] <erlehmann> ah, modules
# [22:36] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: Also, Selectors isn't actually part of CSS. We just started it.
# [22:36] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, i see. it moves the targeted element around in the selector.
# [22:37] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: Yes.
# [22:37] <erlehmann> that might even be more useful.
# [22:37] <finnala> What is selectors part of then?
# [22:37] <TabAtkins> finnala: The web.
# [22:37] <Yuhong> I wonder if eventually HTML6/CSS4 will be the new buzzword.
# [22:37] <TabAtkins> Web Selectors 1.0
# [22:37] <finnala> That's kind of non-commital.
# [22:37] <hober> finnala: while selectors are defined by the css wg, they'
# [22:38] <hober> re not part of css
# [22:38] <finnala> But they will be used mainly in CSS?
# [22:38] <TabAtkins> finnala: That's the point. ^_^ It's tech-neutral. Anything with a tree structure with nodes that can be mapped to a {name, id, classes, attributes} tuple works with Selectors.
# [22:38] <hober> they get used in other specs in other wgs, e.g. querySelector and friend in webapps
# [22:38] <annevk> finnala: CSS is not part of HTML, but HTML does use it
# [22:38] <annevk> finnala: Selectors is not part of CSS, but CSS does use it
# [22:38] <Philip`> Yuhong: The point of buzzwords is to be new and unique and flashy - it'd be no good having "HTML6" after "HTML5" since they're too similar
# [22:38] <finnala> I guess that sort of makes sense
# [22:39] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, if it is web selectors 1.0 now, in two years it must be CSS5 (used as a buzzword, also encompassing several javascript enhancements)!
# [22:39] <finnala> I hate marketing
# [22:39] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: That's the plan!
# [22:39] <Philip`> (and historically it's gone like DHTML, XHTML, AJAX, Web 2.0, HTML5)
# [22:39] <erlehmann> Philip`, well, one can still have Adobe HTML5 CS2
# [22:39] <finnala> HTML5 has so little to do with HTML, I can kind of understand why you're moving towards "non-commital" groups
# [22:39] <erlehmann> (it will come, i tell you)
# [22:40] <finnala> Well. HTML5 has everything to do with HMTL
# [22:40] <finnala> But you understand what I mean.
# [22:40] <Yuhong> Another favorite is "standard-compliance".
# [22:41] <Yuhong> Once Netscape 4 was despised as being non "standard-compliant".
# [22:41] <Yuhong> Now people are saying the same at IE6 years after it was released.
# [22:41] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, selectors being able to target elements in the past and future makes me all wiggly. MADNESS. thanks for the linw.
# [22:41] <erlehmann> link
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: We just stole that from WebVTT and made the langauge a bit more neutral.
# [22:41] <finnala> IE6 was actually pretty cool when it was released. Eh, browses the net and doesn't afraid of anything
# [22:42] <erlehmann> Yuhong, it was not standards compliant when it was released as well.
# [22:42] <erlehmann> finnala should try elinks.
# [22:42] <finnala> I have tried Links.
# [22:43] <finnala> if it's like links I think I'll stick to Opera.
# [22:43] <erlehmann> elinks has not been updated much since 2009. i sent a patch to the mailing list for audio and video elements and they found out that the spam filter ate all messages.
# [22:43] <finnala> Hahaha
# [22:43] <erlehmann> but no one was irritated by this, because the project did not have many contributions.
# [22:43] <finnala> Wait, will they add video to elinks?
# [22:43] <TabAtkins> Hopefully ascii video!
# [22:43] <finnala> Awesome.
# [22:44] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/demos/video/demo3.html
# [22:44] <finnala> There's something in mplayer that makes it possible to watch through a console
# [22:44] <erlehmann> finnala, i have something for you http://blog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/html5-media-elements-in-elinks
# [22:44] <Yuhong> Anyone remember this: http://archive.webstandards.org/ie55.txt
# [22:44] <erlehmann> that's my blog. at that time i did not know that git existed.
# [22:44] <hober> w3m > elinks
# [22:45] <finnala> Haha that's beautiful
# [22:45] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, elinks starts vlc-nox or mplayer automagically in console, if i so desire. eh is a pretty cool browser and i actually use it sometimes for browsing feeds.
# [22:45] <finnala> I think I read something about the way RMS read the interenet
# [22:46] <finnala> wgeting pages and then reading them later in a text browser
# [22:46] <finnala> or something
# [22:46] <TabAtkins> This is accurate. He has a script running on his box. He sends it requests, it emails him pages.
# [22:46] <TabAtkins> Which he, of course, reads in emacs.
# [22:46] <finnala> This blows my mind.
# [22:47] <erlehmann> maybe it is an efficient use of his time.
# [22:47] <zewt> the end-game of NIH
# [22:47] <Phrogz> heh
# [22:47] <erlehmann> zewt, ?
# [22:47] <erlehmann> emacs has a web browser. multiple, probably.
# [22:47] <hober> emacs-w3m is the most usable. w3 is a mess.
# [22:48] <hober> there are a couple of other ones iirc
# [22:48] <finnala> I seriously can't fathom why you would want to.
# [22:49] * hober uses emacs-w3m for rendering html email in gnus
# [22:49] <Yuhong> emacs-w3 was one of the first browsers to implement the CSS1 draft back in 1995.
# [22:49] <Ms2ger> Oh, I thought you were saying the W3C is a mess
# [22:49] <hober> Yuhong: and w3 + emacspeak is one of the only implementations of aural stylesheets (may they rip)
# [22:50] <Yuhong> FYI: http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/exnr8/on_netscape_and_css_history_heres_the_history/
# [22:51] <Yuhong> Remember the Netscape monopoly back in year 1995?
# [22:51] <finnala> Barely
# [22:51] <finnala> Back then we lived in BFN, so I only remember internet cafes and the like.
# [22:51] <finnala> They all had netscape though.
# [22:52] <Yuhong> HTML 3.0? What was the first browsers pre-NN4/IE4 that supported PNG?
# [22:55] <finnala> Lovely
# [22:58] <Yuhong> And BTW, how many clients are able to tell the difference between HTML5, CSS3, and AJAX just by looking at the page?
# [22:58] <finnala> CSS and AJAX has some uses where the output will look exactly the same.
# [22:58] <finnala> Or rendering, or whatever you want to call it
# [23:00] <gsnedders> Yuhong: HTML 3.0 never had any support from browser venders.
# [23:00] <Yuhong> gsnedders: You never heard of Arena, emacs-w3, Viola, etc?
# [23:01] <gsnedders> Yuhong: Well, of any browser with much in the way of marketshare
# [23:01] <Yuhong> gsnedders: Thus why I mention the Netscape monopoly.
# [23:02] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, what do you think about Google+? I mean, as a web standards guy. Are they failing as hard as I portrait it?
# [23:02] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: I try not to think about Google's products from a standards point of view.
# [23:03] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, why not?
# [23:03] <TabAtkins> Because it keeps me from being disappointed, usually.
# [23:03] <gsnedders> Touché.
# [23:03] <erlehmann> I see what you did there.
# [23:04] <jgraham> TabAtkins: (selectors may not be CSS specific but the CSSWG more or less controls them and all the decisions related to e.g perf. are based on CSS as the primary use case)
# [23:04] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Indeed.
# [23:04] <Yuhong> It was IE3 breaking the Netscape monopoly that bought CSS1 into attention.
# [23:07] <timeless> zewt: fwiw, i sort of poked someone about the animated thing, maybe it'll go somewhere
# [23:07] <timeless> if it doesn't, you can poke dao@moznet about it
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# [23:14] <Yuhong> finnala: Can you say fundamentally flawed?
# [23:14] <finnala> Wait what did I do now?
# [23:15] <Yuhong> finnala: I am talking about the buzzwords.
# [23:15] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.73) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
# [23:15] <finnala> Oh right.
# [23:15] <finnala> Buzzwords will be buzzwords.
# [23:16] <finnala> As long as the people who matter keep a fair grisp on what is what I'll be satisfied.
# [23:16] <finnala> It does hurt a bit when someone is talking about HTML5s "border radius" an such though. It's as if they should actually know better
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# [23:17] <Yuhong> finnala: And how you mention "CSS and AJAX has some uses where the output will look exactly the same".
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# [23:18] <finnala> Well, it's a fact.
# [23:18] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [23:18] <finnala> Or am I completely misinterpreting.
# [23:18] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-lpvurlibybvbrgxf) (Quit: tantek)
# [23:19] <Yuhong> finnala: I mean that is the fundamental flaw behind the buzzwords.
# [23:19] <finnala> Yuhong: Yeah well, I agree with that.
# [23:19] <finnala> You can't really use them to describe anything in specifics
# [23:20] <finnala> Especially with CSS transitions and JQuery in the picture.
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# [23:21] <Yuhong> finnala: In other words, sucking up to non-technical management.
# [23:22] <finnala> Yuhong: That's what most of use are paid to do. :\
# [23:23] <Yuhong> finnala: What would be better terms for them?
# [23:23] <Hixie> nessy: yt?
# [23:24] <Yuhong> finnala: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3259400
# [23:24] <finnala> Yuhong: I don't really think it is a worthwile pursuit
# [23:24] <finnala> managers will call "new stuff" whatever they wall to call it.
# [23:24] <Hixie> nessy: are the sections in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-texttracks/2011Nov/att-0017/webvtt.html#snippets intended to be removed from HTML or duplicated in WebVTT or both? or something else? I don't really understand.
# [23:24] <finnala> want to* call it
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# [23:25] <finnala> Interesting that that guy mentions legal code.
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# [23:28] <finnala> No I think we have a pretty good setup already, with HTML, CSS, JavaScript, etc. There shouldn't really be any ambiguity.
# [23:28] <finnala> From my POV, anyway.
# [23:29] <finnala> Yet again there, is, but that is to be chalked up to marketing.
# [23:31] <Yuhong> "HTML5" vs Flash, for example.
# [23:31] <timeless> finnala: yeah, i'm quite happy w/ /. for headline news
# [23:32] <Yuhong> Canvas was for example invented back in 2005 or so.
# [23:32] <benjoffe> is there a good blog post or something which explains that css3 and all that jazz isn't part of html5? And how it's mostly just more semantics/parsing rules with a couple of extra apis?
# [23:33] <finnala> Yuhong: Interesting you should mention that. I was googling for opinions on that some days ago, the consensus seemed to think that calling CSS3/new ECMAscript and so on HTML5 was a good idea
# [23:33] <finnala> I can't say I agree, but I left my search pretty early
# [23:33] <gsnedders> Yuhong: Canvas first shipped in Mac OS 10.4, which was first public in 2004.
# [23:33] <finnala> consensus seemed to be*
# [23:34] <Yuhong> 10.4 was released in 2005 actually.
# [23:34] <gsnedders> Well, canvas was public after the first developer preview in 2004, was what I meant
# [23:35] <Yuhong> I know, I remember reading about it, and how Hixie had to reverse engineer it to put it into what became HTML5.
# [23:36] <Philip`> finnala: I think the WHATWG sort-of-consensus was that it's impossible to fight against abuse of the term "HTML5", so the HTML5 spec got renamed to "HTML" and we don't have to worry about the overloaded HTML5 term any more
# [23:36] <finnala> [23:29] [finnala(+i)] [2:freenode/#whatwg(+cnt)]
# [23:36] <finnala> What am I doin...
# [23:36] <finnala> Sorry
# [23:36] <finnala> Yeah Philip` , I also noticed that
# [23:36] <finnala> After thinking about it for a while I welcome the move
# [23:37] <Philip`> Anybody still talking about "HTML5" is either using the marketing buzzword term, or still believes in the W3C :-)
# [23:38] <Yuhong> I think the main reason is to make it a living standard, so there would be actually no "HTML6".
# [23:38] <finnala> And I was looking forward to HTML16.
# [23:38] <Yuhong> At least at the WHATWG.
# [23:39] <finnala> Oh dear. Let's not hope for even more competing HTML specs.
# [23:40] <Philip`> We don't want to get confused with http://html6.by.ru/
# [23:41] <finnala> http://adactio.com/journal/1684/
# [23:41] <finnala> That's a blogpost about this. I guess
# [23:41] <finnala> Philip`: WTAF is that?
# [23:42] <Yuhong> Submitted, BTW: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3263062
# [23:42] <Yuhong> http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/mknru/css_and_ajax_has_some_uses_where_the_output_will/
# [23:43] * Philip` has no idea what Yuhong is trying to say
# [23:43] <finnala> I'm kind of confused, myself. Sorry. I'm kind of new to this place.
# [23:45] <Yuhong> finnala: I would have suggested in 2004 to create a new version of XHTML that *is* backward-compatible unlike XHTML2.
# [23:45] <finnala> Isn't that what XHTML5 is all about?
# [23:46] <Yuhong> finnala: Yes. I am talking about the creation of the WHATWG and what could have done instead.
# [23:46] <Yuhong> finnala: Yes. I am talking about the creation of the WHATWG and what could have been done instead.
# [23:46] <finnala> Oh, right.
# [23:48] <Yuhong> finnala: And push for an HTML version later in the process.
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# [23:48] <finnala> No sense in crying over spilt milk, I would say
# [23:48] <finnala> I for one think HTML5 must have saved XHTML.
# [23:48] <finnala> I quite like where we're positioned right now
# [23:49] <Philip`> finnala: No need to apologise - Yuhong confuses me and I've been here for ages :-p
# [23:49] <Yuhong> finnala: And it happens, IE9 finally supports true XHTML.
# [23:50] <Yuhong> finnala: Unfortunately, it will take years for IE8 to die, which also affects most HTML5/CSS3 features.
# [23:50] * jgraham is also confused. But that's normal
# [23:50] <finnala> Hmm, well, the web is evolving faster and faster though
# [23:50] <finnala> And IE8 is currently receding in stats, isn't it?
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# [23:52] <finnala> I say give it til the end of 2012, and IE8 and less will be around 5-10% of the net
# [23:52] <Yuhong> finnala: I know, the death of XP.
# [23:54] <finnala> Hmm, I wonder what happens if we extrapolate the stats from w3schools
# [23:54] <timeless> Yuhong: ie8 isn't going to have too long of a shelf life
# [23:54] <Yuhong> finnala: Though of course right now there are some Vista/7 users who has to stick for IE8 for corporate webapp compatibility, but I expect that to die too of course.
# [23:55] * timeless thinks ie7 is basically dead
# [23:55] <finnala> I mean, that should give a decent pinpointer of when IE8 usage will be low on technical-heavy sites
# [23:55] <timeless> MS will use Sharepoint to kill old versions of IE
# [23:55] <timeless> just as it used SharePoint to kill IE6
# [23:55] <finnala> Hmm.
# [23:55] <finnala> Actually I was writing something up about this exact thing some while ago.
# [23:56] <finnala> Seen from the point of XHTML, anyway, for a novice web author.
# [23:58] <timeless> http://web.archive.org/web/20100209025506/http://blogs.msdn.com/sharepoint/archive/2009/05/07/announcing-sharepoint-server-2010-preliminary-system-requirements.aspx
# [23:58] <Yuhong> I wrote something up too: http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/ese39/how_ie_damaged_xhtml_adoption/
# [23:58] <finnala> I'm quite new to web shenanigans, to be honest. But I try to think of interesting stuff.
# [23:59] * Hixie ponders how to set up a system so people can subscribe to changes to parts of the spec
# Session Close: Tue Nov 22 00:00:00 2011

The end :)