/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 22 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <finnala> http://aurbakken.name/articles/2011/11/12/the-impossible-xhtml
  4. # [00:00] <finnala> This is what I wrote. :)
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> i fancy a system based on the lines of the source file would be best
  6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Except that lines drift over time, no?
  7. # [00:00] <finnala> I guess looking back, it's kind of naive, but that's the beauty of it
  8. # [00:00] <Hixie> maybe exposing those line numbers up to the html or something
  9. # [00:00] <jgraham> Hixie: I thought about this once and I think foolip has too
  10. # [00:00] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah, but a script could keep track of those based on the diffs
  11. # [00:00] <jgraham> Hixie: I would just make it per-section
  12. # [00:00] <jgraham> I would *prefer* per-section
  13. # [00:01] <Hixie> per-section is harder as it requires some manner of determining the sections
  14. # [00:01] <Hixie> but i'm certainly open to that too
  15. # [00:01] <finnala> Per section makes more sense to me.
  16. # [00:02] <finnala> If the changes are small they could be marked like they are on Wikipedia, maybe?
  17. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Sections are just the nearest heading of the right level.
  18. # [00:02] <Hixie> another option is to have the spec source annotated with different topics
  19. # [00:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that assuems the ability to parse html
  20. # [00:02] <mkanat> Hixie: Or you could split the sections into files in the source tree.
  21. # [00:02] <timeless> Hixie: sections definitely comes to mind
  22. # [00:02] <mkanat> Hixie: And combine them at render or build time.
  23. # [00:03] <Hixie> mkanat: i want the source file to be a single file, for convenience when editing
  24. # [00:03] * mkanat nods.
  25. # [00:03] <timeless> Hixie: what, you don't have hsivonen 's java parser handy?
  26. # [00:03] <timeless> to validate that your html works :)
  27. # [00:03] <jgraham> Hixie: The spec generation already depends on the ability to parse HTML
  28. # [00:04] <Hixie> timeless: i do run the validator every time i edit the spec, actually, but every time it tells me it has an I/O error due to the file size, so i'd rather not rely on that
  29. # [00:04] <jgraham> So that doesn't seem like a big isue
  30. # [00:04] <timeless> lol
  31. # [00:04] <jgraham> *issue
  32. # [00:04] <timeless> is there a bug filed for that?
  33. # [00:04] <Hixie> jgraham: true, though i've managed to outsource all the parsing out :-)
  34. # [00:04] <Hixie> timeless: it's an artificial limit, hsivonen increases it occasionally
  35. # [00:04] <timeless> does he know it needs to be bumped again?
  36. # [00:04] <Hixie> timeless: i'm planning on removing the webrtc section which i expect will fix it, so i haven't filed a bug
  37. # [00:05] <timeless> well, is there harm in outsourcing the email/tagging to the people already running the parsers?
  38. # [00:05] <Hixie> timeless: none, but nobody has done it
  39. # [00:05] <Yuhong> BTW, what would be useful for fixing XSS attacks etc is to report XML parse errors to a server.
  40. # [00:05] <Hixie> anyway, i'm thinking that even better than sections, which change somewhat frequently, might be to annotate the spec with topics to which one could subscribe
  41. # [00:05] <timeless> Hixie: class :)
  42. # [00:05] <timeless> class="footopic"
  43. # [00:06] <Hixie> or data-topic="foo"
  44. # [00:06] <timeless> class="footopic othertopic"
  45. # [00:06] <Hixie> sure
  46. # [00:06] <timeless> but does that actually help you?
  47. # [00:06] <timeless> if a topic is really a <h1>
  48. # [00:06] <Ms2ger> It can be done in emacs
  49. # [00:06] <Ms2ger> Does that count as "help"?
  50. # [00:06] <timeless> do you really want to have that data-topic copied to each <h> inside that <h1> ?
  51. # [00:06] <Hixie> i actually think it'd be easier to do this at the line level, not the HTML level, since the diffs are line-based
  52. # [00:06] <timeless> that would be painful
  53. # [00:06] <Hixie> so it'd be easier to do if i didn't have to somehow map lines to a DOM tree
  54. # [00:07] <finnala> MediaWiki does changes pretty swell.
  55. # [00:07] <timeless> that's going to make your lines incredibly verbose
  56. # [00:07] <Hixie> topics seem both better for the users of this system as well as for me, since i can just mention the topic each time it changes
  57. # [00:07] <gavinc> First we need a SKOS topic map! Then just some RDFa to link sections to a topic! ... please don't kill me ;)
  58. # [00:07] <Hixie> (turns out i actually already do, to some extent, for other purposes)
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  60. # [00:07] * timeless chuckles
  61. # [00:07] * Hixie pokes at svn diff to see how easy getting line numbers will be
  62. # [00:08] <timeless> svn diff -U 100000 |grep -n .
  63. # [00:08] <timeless> or something :)
  64. # [00:08] <Hixie> heh
  65. # [00:08] <Hixie> that's another option i was considering, yes
  66. # [00:09] <timeless> it doesn't actually really do the right thing for line insertion/removals
  67. # [00:09] <timeless> depending on your definition of the right thing
  68. # [00:11] <Yuhong> I'd suggest a HTTP header.
  69. # [00:13] * Quits: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk) (Quit: ...)
  70. # [00:14] <Hixie> ooh, diff --line-format
  71. # [00:15] * Russ_ is now known as fhaevr
  72. # [00:15] <finnala> You can count on there being some obscure solution to your obscure problem.
  73. # [00:16] <finnala> ;)
  74. # [00:18] * Quits: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  75. # [00:18] <finnala> In the Linux/UNIX ecosystem, anyway.
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  79. # [00:27] <Yuhong> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tesco.com%2F&parser=xmldtd&laxtype=yes
  80. # [00:27] <Yuhong> Notice the warnings and errors.
  81. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Yuhong: Be precise, please. hsivonen, the problem is that it's flagging *all* <a> elements with the "@shape is obsolete" error, when they're not using the attribute.
  82. # [00:31] <Philip`> That's because the DTD says the shape attribute is implied, I think
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  85. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> That's silly.
  86. # [00:31] <Philip`> so the validator is working technically correctly
  87. # [00:31] <timeless> how do i find the dtd?
  88. # [00:32] <timeless> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/dtds.html
  89. # [00:32] <timeless> <!ATTLIST a
  90. # [00:32] <timeless> %attrs;
  91. # [00:32] <timeless> %focus;
  92. # [00:32] <timeless> ...
  93. # [00:32] <timeless> shape %Shape; "rect"
  94. # [00:32] <timeless> ...
  95. # [00:32] <timeless> >
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  99. # [00:34] <annevk> seems per design
  100. # [00:34] <annevk> supporting DTDs might be considered a misfeature I suppose
  101. # [00:35] * timeless ponders
  102. # [00:35] <timeless> i'm not sure this is right
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  108. # [00:39] <timeless> Schema Error: Cannot find preset schema for namespace: .
  109. # [00:40] * timeless wonders what that means
  110. # [00:41] <Yuhong> Also: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tesco.com%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml-strict.rnc+http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml.sch+http%3A%2F%2Fc.validator.nu%2Fall-html4%2F&parser=xmldtd&laxtype=yes
  111. # [00:41] <Yuhong> "Warning: Added the xml:space default attribute to the script element as required by XML parsing rules when loading DTDs."
  112. # [00:42] <Yuhong> "Error: Attribute xml:space not allowed on XHTML element script at this point."
  113. # [00:42] <finnala> That sure sounds kind of backwards.
  114. # [00:43] <finnala> Like a teacher adding something to your write-up, then correcting it.
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  116. # [00:44] <Philip`> DTDs are kind of backwards
  117. # [00:46] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  118. # [00:50] * nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
  119. # [00:51] <finnala> Yuhong: I believe I did read someone suggesting exactly that, that browsers should tell the server when the XML is malformed.
  120. # [00:51] <finnala> I don't really remember where I read it though...
  121. # [00:52] <finnala> As it is right now, they stated, the user is punished for the authors misdeeds.
  122. # [00:54] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  123. # [00:54] <Yuhong> I'd suggest an HTTP header and a protocol.
  124. # [00:56] <erlehmann> i'd suggest servers having to parse the XML they give our
  125. # [00:57] <finnala> If servers didn't have finite processing power, that'd be a good solution
  126. # [00:57] <Yuhong> EXI lets servers send XML as binary, allowing XML to parsed by browsers faster.
  127. # [00:58] <Yuhong> As opposed to HTTP compression which the browser has to first decompress, then do full parsing which is slower.
  128. # [00:58] <Yuhong> http://www.w3.org/XML/EXI/
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  130. # [01:00] <Yuhong> Particularly handy for generating XML via creating elements etc.
  131. # [01:00] <finnala> Interesting.
  132. # [01:01] <mkanat> Sweet. Because that's exactly what XML needs--being harder to parse. ;-)
  133. # [01:01] <finnala> Is XML hard to parse? I mean, computer-wise?
  134. # [01:02] <mkanat> Programmer-wise, it is.
  135. # [01:02] <Philip`> mkanat: Indeed, and being impossible to debug when you get a parser error
  136. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Depends on what you mean by "XML".
  137. # [01:02] <mkanat> Philip`: Yes, that would be an awesome feature. :-D
  138. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> finnala: If you mean vanilla XML without canonicalization or namespaces or anything, it's not difficult.
  139. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> With those things, it is more complex and slower.
  140. # [01:03] <finnala> I guess.
  141. # [01:03] <gavinc> Don't worry everyone always produces perfectly well formed and valid XML
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  143. # [01:04] <finnala> I do detect some irony in the air
  144. # [01:05] <mkanat> gavinc: Heck, I know I do. Look at these magic fingers.
  145. # [01:07] <erlehmann> Philip`, that is a problem of the parser.
  146. # [01:07] <erlehmann> i mean, impossible to debug
  147. # [01:07] <erlehmann> errors in XML parsers are for the most part stupid
  148. # [01:07] <erlehmann> webkit got it partially right with „rendering up to the first error“
  149. # [01:08] <mkanat> erlehmann: We were referring to EXI. :-)
  150. # [01:08] <gavinc> erlehmann: Right, which is of course a violation of the XML spec
  151. # [01:08] <erlehmann> mkanat, making it even harder to parse?
  152. # [01:08] <mkanat> erlehmann: Yeeeeah.
  153. # [01:09] <erlehmann> gavinc, i see what you did there. fun fact: once upon a time you could remote-crash XMPP clients (those that used a real XML parser) by sending namespace-malformed XML
  154. # [01:09] <erlehmann> at least knocked them offline.
  155. # [01:09] <finnala> Specs schmecks. Isn't that how the web works? ;)
  156. # [01:09] <erlehmann> nowadays you'll only knock yourself offline.
  157. # [01:09] <erlehmann> finnala, the word is „schmocks“
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  159. # [01:11] <Yuhong> Tag soup can be even worse of course. I already mentioned https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=607222
  160. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> That has nothing to do with tag soup. It's DOM scripting.
  161. # [01:13] <Yuhong> Yep, the reason I say it is related to tag soup is that it involves document.write which writes tag soup and an appendChild of the base element.
  162. # [01:15] <Yuhong> Also: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1155195074&count=1
  163. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> document.write's problems go *far* beyond tag soup. It's a basic layering violation.
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  166. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> Yuhong, TabAtkins - about the validator behavior for shape, Philip` is right. I added that error reporting because without it there, the message "Error: The shape attribute on the a element is obsolete. Use area instead of a for image maps." gets reported for every <a> element, and the user is, like, "Huh?", because they don't have any shape attributes on those elements in their source and the don't know that XML requires the parser
  167. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> add them
  168. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> if people find that annoying they shouldn't use XML
  169. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> Or use a custom DTD, I guess.
  170. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> yeah. and/or they should select the "don't load external entities" option
  171. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> or maybe we should make the "don't load external entities" option the default (if it's not otherwise)
  172. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> hmm, no, can't do that
  173. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> because then it will report all the named character references as errors
  174. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> yippee for SGML legacy misfeatures
  175. # [01:21] <gavinc> This stuff? Why RDF XMLLiteral is still a -really- bad idea.
  176. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> HTMLLiteral!
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  179. # [01:24] <gavinc> Mm, can HTML be easily compared for equivalence? (also, canonical lexical form?)
  180. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> Canonicalization is the devil.
  181. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> In other words, no.
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  184. # [01:26] <gordo> when i use link rel="icon" type="image/png" sizes="48x48"
  185. # [01:27] <gordo> and various other sizes
  186. # [01:27] <gordo> do browsers make a request for every size?
  187. # [01:27] <gordo> or just one
  188. # [01:27] <zewt> why not test it? heh
  189. # [01:27] <gordo> favicons don't seem to appear in the net tab of browser developer tools
  190. # [01:28] <gavinc> TabAtkins: Canonicalization isn't really that much of an issue. But lexical to value mapping is. Seems like that would end up with needing an HTML parser in order to parse RDF. Same as today with XMLLiteral needing an XML parser
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  193. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> I'll defer to other people who've told me that canonicalization is an issue. But otherwise, yes, you're right - comparison requires an HTML parser to parse RDF.
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  197. # [01:30] <Yuhong> I think canonicalization of HTML is even worse due to it being tag soup which it's error handing was only recently standardized.
  198. # [01:31] <gavinc> But I think an optional defined datatype for HTMLLiteral would be decent, and preferable to XMLLiteral in real usage. Yes, comparing it by value would require an HTML parser but some implementations will have one lying around anyway being in a browser already
  199. # [01:31] * gavinc thinking out loud
  200. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> What are the timplementations of RDF in browsers?
  201. # [01:33] <gavinc> Okay, valid point
  202. # [01:33] <gavinc> Well, in theory an implementation of the RDF API
  203. # [01:34] <gavinc> and RDFa API
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  206. # [01:48] <Hixie> nessy: ping
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  208. # [01:52] <Philip`> Maybe XMLLiteral would be saner if its value space was DOMs, not strings-which-are-canonicalisations-of-DOMs
  209. # [01:52] <Hixie> has to be serialised somehow; the idea is to store the information in a database
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  213. # [01:56] <gavinc> One idea was to have the value space be the XML infoset, but even creating that is complicated
  214. # [01:56] <gavinc> and an HTMLLiteral wouldn't have an infoset
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  218. # [02:03] <gavinc> Oh, I don't think I've asked anyone here yet to kick Turtle in HTML tires yet http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#in-html
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  227. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> Ouch.
  228. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> I never thought about the fact that properties we add to Document will be in global scope for inline event handlers.
  229. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> That's bad.
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  231. # [02:31] <Hixie> yeah that's screwed me several times already
  232. # [02:37] <zewt> no way to segregate new properties somehow, so they're not visible from there?
  233. # [02:37] <zewt> scoping nightmares go
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  238. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> are the "final rendered dimensions of cells within a table" not exposed in the DOM?
  239. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> height and width of a particular cell?
  240. # [02:49] <mkanat> MikeSmith: That's just computed style, isn't it?
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  242. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> mkanat: hmm, yeah, I would think so
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  251. # [03:07] <AryehGregor> Awesome, it's even worse than I thought -- the element itself is also in the scope chain.
  252. # [03:07] <AryehGregor> zewt, that's exactly what I think we should do -- make new properties (at least those with short names that might cause conflict) not get hit from on* as bare names.
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  270. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie, annevk - regarding the "WHATWG on Google+" discussion on the whatwg list, the parts about people needing to read through diffs
  271. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> I notice that diff has this "-show-function-line=regexp" option
  272. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> which could be used to find the nearest preceding <h1>-<h6> heading
  273. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> and/or the nearest preceding element with an id value
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  276. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> and that heading text and id value would then be included in the diff
  277. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> and then http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker could show the heading titles for the sections of the spec affected by that change
  278. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> and provide links back to the spec
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  284. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> hmm, I forgot that Hixie doesn't use many IDs in his source..
  285. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> oh
  286. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> but the index file does have them
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  325. # [06:37] <erlehmann> ha, i thought i might be on hacker news for my work on libglitch. but now this. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3264074
  326. # [06:37] <erlehmann> i hope many people whime in on this discussion. it is important to have mindshare for the open web.
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  336. # [07:31] <erlehmann> >For quite a few years people used the Internet Explorer icon on pamphlets and posters as an icon representing The Internet. It seems people are now starting to use Facebook's icon for that.
  337. # [07:31] <erlehmann> facepalm m(
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  366. # [09:21] <yaffle> hello!
  367. # [09:25] <yaffle> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/comms.html#messageevent
  368. # [09:26] <yaffle> why we need "origin" attribute for MessageEvent from server-sent-events ?
  369. # [09:33] <yaffle> or for MessageEvent from websockets ?
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  371. # [09:33] <Hixie> we don't
  372. # [09:33] <yaffle> when it can be usefull?
  373. # [09:33] <Hixie> it's only useful for messages from window.postMessage(), iirc
  374. # [09:33] <yaffle> so, why this is presented in the spec? seems, some internet bloggers writes their aritcles and propagates "origin" attribute checks every time...
  375. # [09:33] <Hixie> you should check the 'origin' attribute all the time when receiving messages from window.postMessage()
  376. # [09:35] <yaffle> yes, i know, but checking this for messages from websockets and servern-sent-events is redundantly
  377. # [09:35] <Hixie> does it even have a value for those?
  378. # [09:36] <yaffle> http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/eventsource/basics/#toc-security
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  381. # [09:39] <Hixie> yeah that's pretty much pointless. can you file a bug so that i can clarify that that warning is especially relevant for window.postMessage() messages and not so much EventSource and WebSocket ?
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  383. # [09:40] <yaffle> @Hixie, ok
  384. # [09:42] <Hixie> thanks
  385. # [09:46] <erlehmann> tantek, do you like refbacks? if not, why not?
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  387. # [09:51] <tantek> erlehmann, assuming you're talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refback then no
  388. # [09:52] <tantek> because they're too easily open to abuse
  389. # [09:52] <tantek> HTTP header forgery can be used to trick a refback enabled site into accessing some other random site out there
  390. # [09:53] <erlehmann> tantek, and then there is no link to the site and everything is well.
  391. # [09:53] <hsivonen> tantek: why is it bad to do a GET to a random site out there?
  392. # [09:53] <erlehmann> or not?
  393. # [09:54] <tantek> it's an attack surface on a server
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  395. # [09:54] <tantek> for example, it's a trivial way to cause a DDOS
  396. # [09:55] <tantek> if you can trick 1000s of servers out there to issue a get request on one random site out there
  397. # [09:55] <erlehmann> tantek, what do you recommend instead?
  398. # [09:56] <tantek> there is no "Instead". the protocol is flawed all by itself.
  399. # [09:56] <tantek> go back to the drawing board. ;)
  400. # [09:57] <tantek> actually, given that I was able to explain a trivial DDOS scenario - and I'm not even a security expert, why isn't this documented on the wikipedia article?
  401. # [09:57] <erlehmann> tantek, no. i mean: what do you recommend instead of using linkbacks?
  402. # [10:00] <tantek> oh I know - erlehmann, here's your homework assignment in return for that answer, go update the wikipedia article to add a criticism section noting the trivial DDOS abuse of Refback enabled servers, with a <ref> cite to my statements above http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20111122#l-387 :)
  403. # [10:00] <Hixie> it's already pretty trivial to cause a server to get a lot of GETs, that's not a particularly interesting security issue imho
  404. # [10:00] <tantek> or just add it to the existing Security issues section
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  406. # [10:01] <erlehmann> what Hixie said.
  407. # [10:01] <tantek> nah, I call theoretical on that
  408. # [10:01] <Hixie> you can call what you like :-)
  409. # [10:01] <tantek> worthy of documenting as a vulnerability introduced by implementing the protocol
  410. # [10:01] <erlehmann> tantek, you are a clever and mean person.
  411. # [10:02] <Hixie> if you want to do a DDOS of the nature you describe it's far less work to just post a link on some popular site to some porn or a kitten, and include on that page a link to the victim site
  412. # [10:04] <tantek> Hixie, if that were true, people would be doing it all the time on sites like http://cuteoverload.com/ but that doesn't appear to be happening.
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  415. # [10:04] <Hixie> the reason they don't do it is that a bunch of GETs isn't a particularly interesting attack
  416. # [10:04] <Hixie> same reason they don't do it with pingback, trackback, spam e-mail, etc
  417. # [10:04] <Hixie> all of which are existing ways to do what you describe
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  419. # [10:06] <foolip> Hixie, jgraham, I was at one point writing a change tracking tool that used the outline algorithm to determine sections
  420. # [10:06] <foolip> but I got bored, as usual
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  422. # [10:07] <tantek> Hixie, perhaps more likely, there just aren't sufficient numbers of Refback enabled servers yet to perform an interesting attack.
  423. # [10:07] <tantek> perhaps because the vulnerability is so obvious.
  424. # [10:08] <Hixie> there's plenty enough servers that get tons of traffic per link that can be used to cause the attack you describe
  425. # [10:08] <Hixie> reddit, for instance
  426. # [10:08] <Hixie> slashdot
  427. # [10:08] <Hixie> indeed the effect is even named after slashdot
  428. # [10:08] <tantek> sure, and that does happen
  429. # [10:08] <Hixie> it used to be a problem
  430. # [10:08] <tantek> articles get slashdotted
  431. # [10:08] <Hixie> and it isn't anymore
  432. # [10:08] <tantek> it used to be
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  434. # [10:09] <tantek> until slashdot perhaps dropped in popularity
  435. # [10:09] <Hixie> slashdot has far more traffic now than it used to
  436. # [10:09] <tantek> by people that actually read and click? twitter-level attention spans have reduced that too
  437. # [10:10] <tantek> now you're more likely to get the effect if @KevinRose tweets a link to your site
  438. # [10:10] <Hixie> the reason it's no longer a problem is that it's so trivial to perform the attack you describe, that any serious web server software has long been hardened against that kind of attack
  439. # [10:10] <Hixie> anyway, bed time
  440. # [10:10] <Hixie> nn
  441. # [10:10] <tantek> nn
  442. # [10:19] <erlehmann> nn?
  443. # [10:19] <erlehmann> nighty-nighty?
  444. # [10:19] <erlehmann> tantek, i agree with Hixie on this. if 1000 (single) GETs are a problem, maybe one should stop hosting pages on embedded hardware.
  445. # [10:20] <erlehmann> or use better server software, written in C, with libowfat and tinyldap.
  446. # [10:21] <erlehmann> tantek, i think will implement refback and see how it goes. big problem: hashbang sites. :(
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  453. # [10:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: that diff stuff seems interesting
  454. # [10:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: in most cases you can generate the ID from the header value
  455. # [10:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: using the same algorithm Anolis uses
  456. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  457. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> right right
  458. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> hadn't thought about that
  459. # [10:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think I might have solved http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10174
  460. # [10:48] <annevk> MikeSmith: that will be a problem with duplicate "Introduction" sections and such, but they are not that frequent
  461. # [10:48] <hsivonen> it's a shocking bug
  462. # [10:48] <hsivonen> in the code that converts bytes to UTF-16 code units
  463. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah?
  464. # [10:49] <hsivonen> the code returns an EOF sign where doing so can't be right
  465. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: and for code in intro sections it's non-normative anyway, so nobody should care too much
  466. # [10:49] * hsivonen tests some more
  467. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> s/code/spec text/
  468. # [10:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: and I think I can run custom diff on my server
  469. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> annevk: cool. If I can help let me know
  470. # [10:50] <annevk> if you can provide the commandline thingie
  471. # [10:50] <hsivonen> Unicode conversion loops are hard
  472. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> I'm also happy to help with some of the other ideas that were discussed in that thread, if anybody else wants to put time into it
  473. # [10:50] <annevk> we could start with that and see what it does on web-apps-tracker
  474. # [10:50] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@node-7ahkvq28vc65m79q2.a0.ipv6.opera.com)
  475. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: the command line thing is just that same exact thing I put into the message
  476. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> it's really only that one line of code that invokes the diff command with the arguments needed
  477. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> so you should be able to just cut and paste it out of there
  478. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> and make the subversion config change for whatever user you have web-apps-tracker running under
  479. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> the fact that it breaks right exactly at byte 56K seemed like it must be something more than just coincidental
  480. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> 0xE000
  481. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> that number even looks scary
  482. # [10:55] <hsivonen> it falls on a multiple of a buffer size
  483. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> yeah
  484. # [10:59] <erlehmann> how does the yellow highlighting work in the logs?
  485. # [10:59] * Quits: Workshiva (~Dashiva@74.125.57.33) (Quit: leaving)
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  488. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks for the fix
  489. # [11:03] * MikeSmith goes to push the change to w3c validator.nu backend
  490. # [11:04] * Quits: Margle (~Margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Client Quit)
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  492. # [11:15] <annevk> TabAtkins / ojan / etc. I think we should do it with a Web IDL annotation instead
  493. # [11:15] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  494. # [11:15] <annevk> I guess I should say on the list
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  497. # [11:21] <annevk> so MikeSmith, I currently have "svn diff -r %s%s %s"
  498. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> OK
  499. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> you don't need to change that
  500. # [11:23] <annevk> svn diff does support --diff-cmd
  501. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> yeah
  502. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> true
  503. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> so yeah, you can do it that way
  504. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> instead of in the config file
  505. # [11:25] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.39.108)
  506. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> "svn diff --diff-cmd diffwrap -r %s%s %s"
  507. # [11:25] <annevk> I don't have full control over the server
  508. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> ah
  509. # [11:25] <annevk> the diff utility I have does support -F
  510. # [11:25] <annevk> but obviously it does not have -r
  511. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> yeah
  512. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> it's not going to pass that -r to the external diff util
  513. # [11:26] <annevk> okay
  514. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> or maybe it does, but the wrapper doesn't read that arg
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  516. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> so you just need to have a "diffwrap" file somewhere
  517. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> and put into it:
  518. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> #!/bin/sh
  519. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> diff -u -F '<h[1-6]' ${6} ${7}
  520. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> maybe you don't need the -u in there
  521. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> dunno
  522. # [11:28] * Joins: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1A25.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  523. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> hmm, or maybe you do, come to think of it
  524. # [11:28] <annevk> I'm going to try with
  525. # [11:28] <annevk> command = "svn diff -r %s%s %s --diff-cmd diff -u -F '<h[1-6]'"
  526. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
  527. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> tried that already
  528. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> won't work
  529. # [11:29] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  530. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> even if you properly quote "diff -u -F '<h[1-6]'"
  531. # [11:29] * Joins: andyg_ (~andyg@CPE-124-189-148-81.sqcy1.win.bigpond.net.au)
  532. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> it needs it to be in script
  533. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> because subversion can never do things that way everybody does them
  534. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> the intuitive way
  535. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> it likes to do them the asstarded way
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  539. # [11:30] <annevk> it does not seem to do anything
  540. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> read the intro to http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.2/svn.advanced.externaldifftools.html if you care to know the ugly details
  541. # [11:32] <annevk> oh
  542. # [11:32] <annevk> so this won't do anything
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  544. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> um
  545. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> I think you may need to put the --diff-cmd before the -r part
  546. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> or at least before the final %s
  547. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> which is a filename
  548. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> and which needs to be the last arg, I think
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  550. # [11:34] <annevk> ok
  551. # [11:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: so I need to make that diffwrap script?
  552. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> yup
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  555. # [11:36] <annevk> sigh
  556. # [11:36] <annevk> nothing is working
  557. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> dunno what error you're getting
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  559. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> but of course you have to either give --diff-cmd the absolute path to the diffwrap script, or you need to put the diffwrap script into whatever PATH the web-apps-tracker user has set
  560. # [11:39] <annevk> did it work for you with that script?
  561. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> yup
  562. # [11:40] <annevk> I can just copy and paste the template?
  563. # [11:40] <annevk> and then replace $DIFF with "diff" I suppose and remove the variable declaration
  564. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> you gotta make that script chmod 755 too
  565. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> yeah, sure
  566. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> and add the -F '<h[1-6]' part
  567. # [11:45] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  568. # [11:45] <annevk> ooh in there?
  569. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> heh
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  571. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> yeah man
  572. # [11:45] <annevk> also -u ?
  573. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> yup
  574. # [11:46] <annevk> this means the Python stuff ends up looking like this:
  575. # [11:46] <annevk> command = "svn diff --diff-cmd diffwrap -r %s%s %s"
  576. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> yeah
  577. # [11:46] <annevk> still yielding nothing
  578. # [11:46] <annevk> maybe I should add the .sh?
  579. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> yeah, if it has a .sh extension, yeah
  580. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> and also you probably need to put the absolute path
  581. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> not just --diff-cmd diffwrap
  582. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> but -diff-cmd /home/annevk/bin/diffwrap.sh
  583. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> or whatever
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  586. # [11:53] <annevk> MikeSmith: doesn't work :(
  587. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> you not getting any error message?
  588. # [11:54] <annevk> maybe, I'm just logged in via ssh and trying it live
  589. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> you sure the diffwrap script is executable?
  590. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> -rwxr-xr-x
  591. # [11:55] <annevk> hmm
  592. # [11:55] <annevk> when I execute that it says diff: unrecognized option `--right'
  593. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> ah
  594. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> yeah
  595. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> remove that part from the line in the script
  596. # [11:56] <annevk> including LEFT / RIGHT ?
  597. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, don't do $DIFF --left $LEFT --right $RIGHT at all
  598. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> I don't even understand what the hell that stuff is
  599. # [11:57] <hsivonen> 'Would it help if the TAG were to "Recommend" to W3C to not be a "bad netizen"?'
  600. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> instead make it diff -u -F '<h[1-6]' ${6} ${7}
  601. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> and "Somehow getting a regular "have obligations related to registration been met"
  602. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> check into the W3C document publication/advancement procedure shouldn't be too
  603. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> difficult."
  604. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> gotta love that way of approaching things
  605. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: or diff -u -F '<h[1-6]' $LEFT $RIGHT should work too
  606. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> if you have those variables in your script
  607. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> but I don't see any point in having them because you can just do diff -u -F '<h[1-6]' ${6} ${7} directly
  608. # [11:59] <annevk> this works
  609. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> sweet
  610. # [11:59] <annevk> but it seems something else in the script breaks because of this
  611. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> oh
  612. # [12:00] <annevk> ah yeah
  613. # [12:00] <annevk> --- /tmp/tmp.27 2011-11-22 10:53:17.000000000 +0000
  614. # [12:00] <annevk> +++ /tmp/tmp.28 2011-11-22 10:53:17.000000000 +0000
  615. # [12:00] <annevk> is no longer accurate
  616. # [12:00] <annevk> and therefore I can not extract the information from it I am trying to extract
  617. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  618. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> but is working int he oupt
  619. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> *in the output
  620. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> if you wait for the page to load
  621. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> shows the diff at the bottom
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  623. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> hmm
  624. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> but ends up with some cases like <h6><dfn title="attr-input-type-file">
  625. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> because it truncates that part at 40 chars
  626. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> I think
  627. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> oh well
  628. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> can refine it later
  629. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> and/or make hack the diff source and build a binary that doesn't truncate at 40 chars
  630. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> because I think that's a hard-coded limit
  631. # [12:06] <hsivonen> manu-db: regarding your W3C Conference talk: why is giving your bank account number to someone a bad idea?
  632. # [12:06] <hsivonen> manu-db: is the U.S. system so broken that people can take your money if they know your account number instead of just sending you money?
  633. # [12:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: is there any way we can change back those log lines?
  634. # [12:08] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GGGMMDCCLXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  635. # [12:08] <jgraham> At least in the UK giving out your bank number can, in some cases, be used to set up direct debits I think
  636. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: maybe
  637. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> but I don't understand why it's changing them to begin with
  638. # [12:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7174760.stm
  639. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: what should those log lines actually say?
  640. # [12:09] <annevk> usually they give back what svn diff returns
  641. # [12:09] <annevk> the actual svn to and from numbers
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  643. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: well, you already have those, don't you?
  644. # [12:10] <annevk> not if you revTo is 0
  645. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> ah
  646. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> really?
  647. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> I mean, if you are doing svn diff --diff-cmd diffwrap -r %s%s %s
  648. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> then it's just those first pair of %s%s, right?
  649. # [12:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh, right. Direct debit.
  650. # [12:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: the protocol for setting up direct debit is bogus here, too.
  651. # [12:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: one can be omitted
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  653. # [12:14] <annevk> MikeSmith: and then we still need to know the other one for the UI
  654. # [12:14] <annevk> well we don't need to
  655. # [12:14] <annevk> but we could before
  656. # [12:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: I wonder if banks had usability people who advocated for the bogus direct debit setup protocol or if they were just full of FAIL without usability people winning over security people
  657. # [12:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: see e.g. http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2011&to=1999 now
  658. # [12:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: for how it looks
  659. # [12:19] <hsivonen> aargh. # in data: URL for the lose
  660. # [12:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: for the other feature, see http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6830
  661. # [12:20] <annevk> MikeSmith: note how the UI knows it's against 6831
  662. # [12:20] * MikeSmith looks
  663. # [12:20] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6829 here again, the UI knows it's against 6831; and it figured that out from the log
  664. # [12:20] <annevk> I commented out diffwrap
  665. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> ah
  666. # [12:23] <hsivonen> I hadn't realized the HTML spec had outgrown Validator.nu's size limit again
  667. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
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  669. # [12:24] <hsivonen> time to set it to 7 MB, I guess
  670. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: so maybe we can figure out later some way to get around that so your python script can still get the data it needs
  671. # [12:24] <hsivonen> at least the limit is use case-driven
  672. # [12:24] <annevk> yeah, or we kill that feature
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  674. # [12:24] <annevk> always require both fields
  675. # [12:24] <annevk> oh there might be another issue
  676. # [12:25] <annevk> if you fill in a revision larger than actually exists
  677. # [12:25] <annevk> you could poise the cache
  678. # [12:25] <annevk> so you always want to know the revision numbers the diff ran against
  679. # [12:25] <annevk> there's some other ways to get around too, but this was rather trivial
  680. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> OK. well I'm happy to help more later if I can
  681. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> right now I gotta go get some food
  682. # [12:26] <annevk> I should get some lunch too
  683. # [12:26] <annevk> :)
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  690. # [13:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: I adjusted the size limit on Validator.nu to accommodate the HTML spec again
  691. # [13:07] <jgraham> foolip: Oh, if I understand what you were going for, that seems simple and clever.
  692. # [13:07] <foolip> jgraham, you mean diff-sections?
  693. # [13:07] <jgraham> Yeah
  694. # [13:08] <jgraham> I didn't really read the code much, so I might not have understood
  695. # [13:08] <foolip> it splits the spec into directories and files
  696. # [13:08] <foolip> then git log -- sections/video/bla will only show commits in that subsection
  697. # [13:08] <jgraham> Right
  698. # [13:08] <jgraham> So you can subscribe to particular sections or files
  699. # [13:09] <foolip> yeah, that would be the idea
  700. # [13:09] <jgraham> s/sections/directories/
  701. # [13:09] <jgraham> Like I said, that seems clever and simple
  702. # [13:09] <foolip> but the tooling to actually do that is missing so far, feel free to step in :)
  703. # [13:10] <jgraham> Well… maybe :) I fear trying to commit to getting more done :) But this does seem like I would particularly benefit from it
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  705. # [13:21] <annevk> foolip: MikeSmith's diff command thingie does give you section titles for changes
  706. # [13:21] <annevk> foolip: and it works
  707. # [13:22] <annevk> foolip: it doesn't seem like it would be a big burden to go from there to some kind of push notification if you find a particular section
  708. # [13:22] <annevk> foolip: could have a twitter account per section :)
  709. # [13:25] <jgraham> The moaning of the G+ haters will be nothing to my wrath if you start publishing data exclusively on twitter
  710. # [13:25] <hsivonen> foo&noti;bar is my least favorite part of named character reference tokenization
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  712. # [13:26] <annevk> jgraham: define data
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  714. # [13:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what's your most favorite?
  715. # [13:29] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YYYMMDLXX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  716. # [13:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hard to say. named character reference tokenization doesn't have particularly nice parts
  717. # [13:39] <eightfold> can someone have a look at this:
  718. # [13:39] <eightfold> http://jsfiddle.net/abmTH/
  719. # [13:43] <eightfold> i want to hide .PreviewSizes based on the content of pxField
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  721. # [13:45] <zcorpan> i'll say my favorite is <a href="&copy=">
  722. # [13:45] <zcorpan> but then i don't have to implement it :)
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  724. # [13:50] <eightfold> bah, that was supposed to go in #jquery. sorry.
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  726. # [14:03] <foolip> annevk, yeah, I tried that as well, but with that approach you can either only follow <h1> sections or need to follow each and every sub-section, I think
  727. # [14:04] <jgraham> annevk: Data is like pornography; I know it when I see it :p
  728. # [14:19] <annevk> foolip: that's true, but the subsections are in a database
  729. # [14:19] <annevk> foolip: because of the section annotation system
  730. # [14:19] <foolip> annevk, oh, ok
  731. # [14:19] <annevk> basically, there's a couple of dots, but how to connect them...
  732. # [14:19] <foolip> well, whoever sets up a working solution first wins!
  733. # [14:19] <foolip> I hope it isn't me
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  748. # [15:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: it seems we should give people at least a week before marking things as NEEDSINFO after you already requested some information
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  754. # [15:13] <zcorpan> what's the difference between needsinfo keyword and RESOLVED NEEDSINFO?
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  756. # [15:13] <annevk> needsinfo can be added by anyone
  757. # [15:13] <annevk> resolving can only be done by editors
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  767. # [15:37] <zcorpan> i see
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  809. # [17:32] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You will excuse me while I don't hold my breath for the "batch processors" selectors spec
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  827. # [18:06] <grendzy> Hi! Drupal community is looking for a more sophisticated parser to replace PHP DOM (a.k.a SimpleXML, I think based on libxml2). Is http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/ abandoned? Last commit was almost 2 years ago. Thanks!
  828. # [18:09] * Joins: cygri (~cygri@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  829. # [18:09] <jgraham> I am not aware thatanyone is actively working on the PHP port
  830. # [18:09] <jgraham> If you would like to take over that would be easy to arrange
  831. # [18:09] <jgraham> But you should maybe check the performance before you decide what you want to do :)
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  835. # [18:11] <smaug____> wasn't there some plan to support hsivonen's parser with libxml2
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  839. # [18:13] <smaug____> grendzy: take hsivonen's parser, and generate php code from java files :)
  840. # [18:15] <hsivonen> smaug____: there's a plan. now that View Source is out of the way, it might actually become real
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  843. # [18:16] <erlehmann> grendzy, as far as i can say, html5lib was usable 1 year ago.
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  845. # [18:17] <erlehmann> i used the PHP portion for a wordpress plugin.
  846. # [18:17] <erlehmann> and am now using python.
  847. # [18:17] <erlehmann> PHP is pig disgusting.
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  856. # [18:22] <grendzy> thanks folks… anyone mind if I quote this chat on a drupal.org discussion?
  857. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> Go ahead.
  858. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> It's publicly logged.
  859. # [18:23] <grendzy> cool, thanks again for the feedback
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  862. # [18:31] <jarek> grendzy: this channel is already logged on http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
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  876. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> "Funnily enough, I've just been talking to the DOM5 and DOM6 API designers..."
  877. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> Anybody know those?
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  881. # [19:17] <smaug____> Ms2ger: where is that coming from?
  882. # [19:18] * timeless saw that
  883. # [19:18] * timeless can't remember
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  885. # [19:22] <miketaylr> public-webapps?
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  890. # [19:27] <timeless> ah yes, in a Selectors API 2 thread
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  919. # [20:27] <rillian_> foolip: what do you think about video.advance(optional unsigned long frames) ?
  920. # [20:28] <rillian_> the idea would be to have something you could call the single-step when paused
  921. # [20:28] <zewt> might be expensive to implement for some codecs
  922. # [20:28] <rillian_> yeah, I was just thinking skipping many frames could be very expensive
  923. # [20:28] <rillian_> in a variable frame rate stream
  924. # [20:29] <rillian_> video.advance() wouldn't be bad though
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  926. # [20:30] <zewt> don't know if there are use cases for small values of frames but greater than 1
  927. # [20:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: thanks. i think it's only a temporary issue though, i'll be removing a lot of text soon which should solve the problem anyway.
  928. # [20:30] <zewt> perhaps it would be cheap enough to just call advance() multiple times--if the decoding itself is done lazily, it would still allow frame skipping optimizations
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  930. # [20:31] <rillian_> zewt: yeah. I think the idea is just to scan faster
  931. # [20:32] <rillian_> but if it's unlimited, someone might try to use it to seek, not realizing it's an expensive operations on some formats
  932. # [20:32] <zewt> right
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  934. # [20:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: the old limit was around 5 MB. the spec was around 6 MB. the new limit is 7 MB
  935. # [20:32] <zewt> (some people might still call advance() a ton to try to seek, but you can only babysit so much)
  936. # [20:32] <rillian_> *is* it expensive on vfr mp4?
  937. # [20:32] <zewt> not sure
  938. # [20:32] <rillian_> I guess it's pretty bad on webm
  939. # [20:32] * gwicke_ is now known as gwicke
  940. # [20:33] <rillian_> you can go a chunk at a time, but still
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  942. # [20:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh, wow.
  943. # [20:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: i wonder what i added to make the difference so high
  944. # [20:38] <danbeam> anybody know if it's intentional that it's pretty much impossible to find out if setting a style from the JS/DCOM will actually trigger a CSS transition / [webkitT]ransitionEnd event? I'm having issues where I'd like to fire a callback on webkitTransitionEnd but if there's no style that ends up changing (i.e. you simply set the same style) you'll never reach this event handler as you never triggered a transition...
  945. # [20:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: it still seems to catch errors all teh way to near the bottom of the spec
  946. # [20:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: so i assumed it was just on the edge
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  949. # [20:40] <rillian_> zewt: I think reason for the argument was so you could call video.advance(-1)
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  951. # [20:40] <zewt> doesn't have to be an integer to allow that (though also, scanning backwards can be pretty expensive)
  952. # [20:41] <rillian_> which isn't as expensive as large n, but it still a lot of new code
  953. # [20:41] <rillian_> zewt: right
  954. # [20:41] <zewt> not necessarily much code, but it's often an expensive operation
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  956. # [20:42] <rillian_> well, you might have to rememeber the last keyframe, if you're not already?
  957. # [20:43] <zewt> only if you want to optimize it further, but that's very low-level...
  958. # [20:44] <zewt> (depending heavily on the codec, of course--many formats you'll need to keep the keyframe around anyway)
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  960. # [20:44] <zewt> (or multiple keyframes)
  961. # [20:46] <danbeam> s/DCOM/DOM/ **
  962. # [20:46] <rillian_> well, the reason this never works is you really want to just buffer a bunch of decoded data so you can step around
  963. # [20:46] <rillian_> which is what editing applications do
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  965. # [20:46] <rillian_> but that adds a lot of footprint for a feature which mostly isn't used
  966. # [20:46] <zewt> generally when it works, seeking backwards is just painfully slow, decoding everything over and over
  967. # [20:47] <zewt> editing applications tend to just reencode the video in something designed for it (stuff that doesn't keyframe once a year)
  968. # [20:47] <rillian_> that too
  969. # [20:48] <rillian_> anyway, I think it has to map to a low-level call inside the playback engine
  970. # [20:48] <rillian_> because for variable frame rate formats, you can't be sure you're moving to a particular frame number without codec- and container- specific knowledge
  971. # [20:50] <rillian_> which is why fixed frame rate is the ONE TRUE WAY! *ahem*
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  980. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> Hmm, nice
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  982. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Apparently all of Gecko/Webkit/Presto let you do handle = setInterval(); clearTimeout(handle);
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  987. # [21:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: isn't that how that feature works?
  988. # [21:30] * Joins: Margle (~Margle@41-133-196-64.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  989. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> Not per spec afaict
  990. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> Note interval <-> timeout
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  1010. # [22:18] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Oh, that is interesting
  1011. # [22:19] <jgraham> Presumably the reverse is also true so clearInterval and clearTimeout are synonyms?
  1012. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> That's true in Gecko, haven't tested
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  1014. # [22:22] <jgraham> Any reason not to make the spec say that?
  1015. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Probably not, I filed a bug
  1016. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I wouldn't hold your breath, no; it'll certainly take more than a minute or two to do it.
  1017. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> But I've talked with fantasai about it, and we both think it's a reasonable idea.
  1018. # [22:27] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Well ignoring the fact that selectors is turning into something that closely resembles line noise already (or Perl), waiting years for the inevitable wrangling about who owns the spec and where it is allowed to discuss it and then more time as people debate synatax seems relatively unappealing compared to slapping the already-implemented-in-Opera API onto XPath and covering all the same use cases. Even if we still so the other thing.
  1019. # [22:27] <jgraham> *do
  1020. # [22:30] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
  1021. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Do you already understand XPath?
  1022. # [22:31] <erlehmann> i once made a content management system using XSLT
  1023. # [22:31] <jgraham> Me? I understand it enough to use it when I use lxml
  1024. # [22:31] <erlehmann> madness
  1025. # [22:31] <jgraham> XSLT != XPath
  1026. # [22:31] <jgraham> XSLT is indeed nuts
  1027. # [22:32] <erlehmann> jgraham, i had to use Xpath in between.
  1028. # [22:32] <jgraham> Sure, XSLT depends on XPath
  1029. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Then you are an extremely tiny minority of authors. Almost *all* authors are unaware that there even is such a thing as XPath, and would react badly if we tried to tell them to use a completely different selection syntax if they want a new feature, that doesn't work with any of the old features.
  1030. # [22:32] <erlehmann> jgraham, i think tha difference between perl line noise and CSS is that CSS is single-pass tokenizing. you can't parse perl. (at all)
  1031. # [22:33] <jgraham> TabAtkins: The selectors way might be a good long term thing for that reason
  1032. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> And, heh, if you think CSS is line noise, I don't see how you don't think even worse of XPath. ^_^
  1033. # [22:33] <erlehmann> what TabAtkins says, it sounds reasonable
  1034. # [22:33] <jgraham> Even though selectors scales badly due to the syntax
  1035. # [22:33] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GGYGDCCLXXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  1036. # [22:33] <erlehmann> XPath is just lots of JS comments to the trained eye (starting with //)
  1037. # [22:34] <jgraham> XPath mostly has a consistent syntax afaict
  1038. # [22:34] <erlehmann> scales badly?
  1039. # [22:34] <jgraham> Selectors just picks a new character for each new feature
  1040. # [22:34] <jgraham> By 2050 I will probably need to have emoji input to make complex selectors
  1041. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Only for syntax-level features. Most features can be exposed through pseudoclasses and similar.
  1042. # [22:35] <erlehmann> what became of :outside?
  1043. # [22:35] <Ms2ger> ::outside*
  1044. # [22:35] <erlehmann> ::outside i mean
  1045. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> Doesn't exist yet. The draft speccing is is currently abandoned.
  1046. # [22:35] <erlehmann> I WANT OUTSIDE
  1047. # [22:35] <erlehmann> breaking out of div hell is great.
  1048. # [22:35] <jgraham> erlehmann: Thank you for demonstrating my point :)
  1049. # [22:35] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@venkman.brightcove.com)
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  1051. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: I know, I want functionality like that too.
  1052. # [22:36] <erlehmann> jgraham, i like CSS. it can do, err, stuff.
  1053. # [22:37] <erlehmann> here, take some blog.fefe.de/?css=http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/fefe-anaglyph-css/anaglyph.css
  1054. # [22:37] <erlehmann> (caveat: red-cyan glasses needed.)
  1055. # [22:38] * miketaylr goes blind
  1056. # [22:38] * jgraham isn't saying anything about CSS in general
  1057. # [22:39] <erlehmann> miketaylr, that blog allows external CSS. i also made an imageboard style and a facebook-like one once.
  1058. # [22:39] <erlehmann> :)
  1059. # [22:39] <miketaylr> ooo cool
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  1061. # [22:39] <erlehmann> it is a fun demo ground for neat tricks
  1062. # [22:41] <erlehmann> http://blog.fefe.de/?css=http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/fefesbook-css/fefesbook.css
  1063. # [22:41] <erlehmann> see what i did there?
  1064. # [22:41] <miketaylr> heh
  1065. # [22:41] <miketaylr> aw bummer, http://blog.fefe.de/?css=data:text/css,h1{color:green}
  1066. # [22:41] <miketaylr> :P
  1067. # [22:42] <erlehmann> i use html::before
  1068. # [22:42] <erlehmann> BOW BEFORE ME
  1069. # [22:42] <erlehmann> :D
  1070. # [22:43] <erlehmann> maybe i should do an article on abusing CSS
  1071. # [22:43] <erlehmann> hehe
  1072. # [22:43] <erlehmann> selectors fun is fun!
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  1077. # [22:56] <finnala> With great power comes great responsibility
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  1104. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Yup, Bjoern is now in my killfilter. Nearly every interaction I have with him is him trolling.
  1105. # [23:41] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1106. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Hmm, looks like a recency illusion, actually. He's only recently been trolling, and only in CSS stuff. I'll remove the filter and let him ride a while longer.
  1107. # [23:52] <Hixie> bjoern h?
  1108. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  1111. # [23:55] <Hixie> i haven't found him trolling, though i have for hte past few years found his priorities are more theoretical than i am comfortable with
  1112. # [23:55] <Hixie> he used to be emminently practical in his feedback
  1113. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah, when I looked back through my archives, his feedback on html or js stuff seems fine.
  1114. # [23:55] <Hixie> now he tends to talk about process and theoretical spec correctness issues
  1115. # [23:56] <Hixie> (much like julian)
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  1117. # [23:58] <jgraham> TabAtkins: FWIW I think accusing Robin of "arguing badly" was unjustified
  1118. # [23:59] * Quits: c_t_montgomery (~c_t_montg@76.92.215.21) (Quit: c_t_montgomery)
  1119. # [23:59] <jgraham> AFAICT there is no actual disagreement about facts only about priorities
  1120. # Session Close: Wed Nov 23 00:00:00 2011

The end :)