/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-11-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 24 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:04] <annevk> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/18/us-hp-lane-idUSTRE7AH2DK20111118 lol
  5. # [00:04] <annevk> that photo
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  8. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> annevk: What, the HP guy using an Apple?
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  10. # [00:09] <timeless> annevk: he should use a WebOS pad?
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  12. # [00:10] <timeless> it looks like he's trying not to laugh
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  14. # [00:10] <timeless> MikeSmith: ping ping
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  49. # [00:51] <MikeSmith> timeless: here now
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  59. # [01:12] <timeless> MikeSmith: still here?
  60. # [01:12] <timeless> the message where he wrote "to text/plain" was when he stopped using rich text email messages
  61. # [01:13] <timeless> i'm not sure what mail client you're using
  62. # [01:13] * Quits: Telling (~unknown@80-71-135-15.u.parknet.dk) (Quit: ...)
  63. # [01:13] <timeless> the archives seem to only show the plain text version of messages (kinda good, somewhat problematic when referencing rich versions)
  64. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> ah
  65. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> I see
  66. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> I don't read the archives, so didn't see the context
  67. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> and I read all my mail in mutt, so it's all plain text to me anyway :)
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  69. # [01:22] * MikeSmith finishes reading scrollback
  70. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, wasn't expecting that you'd touch the ones not assigned to you
  71. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> thanks for checking those
  72. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> oh
  73. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> I guess you haven't actually gotten to them yet
  74. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> so, then, thanks in advance :)
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  76. # [01:27] <timeless> MikeSmith: do you really want me to reply to www-archive?
  77. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> timeless: no
  78. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> no need
  79. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> it's clear now
  80. # [01:28] <timeless> well, it's clear
  81. # [01:28] <timeless> but i still need someone to smack the rest of the googlers
  82. # [01:28] <timeless> can you do that for me?
  83. # [01:28] <timeless> please?
  84. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> nope
  85. # [01:28] <timeless> (that includes the chromium.org one)
  86. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> because I think the solution to that problem is for you and everybody else to read your mail in better mail client
  87. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> as I do
  88. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> it's like, if there's somebody annoying with you in the same room, and you close your eyes, that annoying person goes away
  89. # [01:31] * timeless sighs
  90. # [01:31] <timeless> unhelpful
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  92. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> well, seriously, I wish people would not send mail that way too
  93. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> but I do not want to become the netiquette police
  94. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> I think the message you sent to the list was great
  95. # [01:33] <timeless> yeah, i tried to provide a nice set of examples
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  97. # [01:33] <timeless> sadly i screwed up and message 4 went to the wrong address and thus appeared out of order
  98. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> oh
  99. # [01:33] * Joins: wookiehangover (~wookiehan@c-67-161-138-118.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  100. # [01:33] <timeless> i really did send it before 5
  101. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> anyway, that message of yours of course has a URL now so people on the list can point others to it when needed
  102. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> dude
  103. # [01:34] <timeless> yeah, i've already used it at least once
  104. # [01:34] <timeless> i still need to get used to that MID Thing
  105. # [01:34] <timeless> is it possible to have the mailing list web ui software provide MID links?
  106. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> you seem to be excessively worried about some of this kind of stuff lately
  107. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> timeless: yeah it's possible of course
  108. # [01:35] <timeless> could you ask the systeam for me?
  109. # [01:35] * timeless wonders if that's the right team
  110. # [01:35] <timeless> oh, and whom was i supposed to send my magic script that figure out speakers and such? was that sys also?
  111. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> would be better if you asked yourself. they will listen to that more than me requesting it
  112. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
  113. # [01:36] <timeless> ok, mailto:sysreq@w3 ?
  114. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> yep
  115. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> but about the order you sent your messages in, I don't think anybody else would find that confusing and many probably would not even notice
  116. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> I think you need to try to do some things more randomly in your life
  117. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> make some arbitrary decisions
  118. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> or flip a coin
  119. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> or sometimes do the opposite of what you'd normally be inclined to do
  120. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> now and then
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  123. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> I am entirely unsurprised that that's a course of action you would endorse.
  124. # [01:42] <rniwa> AryehGregor: hi
  125. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> rniwa, hi.
  126. # [01:43] <rniwa> AryehGregor: did you see the webkit bug I just cc-ed you on?
  127. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> rniwa, it's in my work inbox. I'll look at it tomorrow.
  128. # [01:43] <rniwa> AryehGregor: ok
  129. # [01:44] <rniwa> AryehGregor: I think your editing API spec should match the behavior
  130. # [01:44] <AryehGregor> I'll get back to you on that.
  131. # [01:44] <rniwa> k
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  134. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> rniwa: please be nice to the command api
  135. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> he needs your help
  136. # [01:52] <rniwa> MikeSmith: yeah
  137. # [01:53] <rniwa> MikeSmith: I want them
  138. # [01:53] <rniwa> MikeSmith: it's just that I don't feel like there have been enough discussions
  139. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> yeah, understood
  140. # [01:53] <rniwa> MikeSmith: e.g. most of webkit developers, etc... have never heard of command apis :(
  141. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> definitely needs some more attention
  142. # [01:53] <rniwa> yeah
  143. # [01:53] <rniwa> MikeSmith: I think they have a lot of good ideas
  144. # [01:53] <rniwa> MikeSmith: just needs some polishing
  145. # [01:54] <rniwa> MikeSmith: and to do that, it's important to address use cases, etc...
  146. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> yup
  147. # [01:54] <rniwa> I know some people (including myself) have a tendency to implement whatever spec says without doing the sanity check of the spec itself
  148. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, that's definitely not the way it should work
  149. # [01:55] <rniwa> MikeSmith: so there's a very interesting implication on accessibilty
  150. # [01:55] <rniwa> MikeSmith: good one actually
  151. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> yeah?
  152. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> how so?
  153. # [01:55] <rniwa> MikeSmith: if we expose "commands"
  154. # [01:55] <rniwa> MikeSmith: then it could be listed in context menu, etc...
  155. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> yeah
  156. # [01:55] <rniwa> MikeSmith: and assistant technology can provide a higher-level semantics of what an app does
  157. # [01:56] <rniwa> which is a superb solution to listing buttons and letting people figure out what those buttons do
  158. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> so the spec already does some of that by tying it in with accesskey
  159. # [01:56] <rniwa> also, you could imagine that if command has some human readable level such as "create a new note"
  160. # [01:57] <rniwa> then voice recognition software might be able to automatically execute that command
  161. # [01:57] <rniwa> when the user instructs it to do so
  162. # [01:57] <rniwa> MikeSmith: yeah, typing it to accessKey is nice
  163. # [01:58] <rniwa> MikeSmith: but we aren't so happy about how command's states are tied with the element that defines it
  164. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> yeah, there's a lot of utility that could be had from this feature, so it would be nice to see it getting some more scrutiny and refinement
  165. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> ah
  166. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> yeah
  167. # [01:58] <rniwa> MikeSmith: e.g. we had an idea to tie the command with execCommand's commands
  168. # [01:58] <rniwa> MikeSmith: and with tthat
  169. # [01:58] <rniwa> MikeSmith: you can also tie it to radio box, checkbox, etc... states
  170. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> OK
  171. # [01:59] <rniwa> MikeSmith: for example, you can imagine that if you have <input type="checkbox" command="bold">
  172. # [01:59] <rniwa> MikeSmith: then UA can automatically check this box when the command state is bold
  173. # [01:59] <rniwa> I mean when bold command's state is true
  174. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
  175. # [01:59] <rniwa> and uncheck when the state is false
  176. # [02:00] <rniwa> MikeSmith: we can apply similar mechanism to select, radio, etc...
  177. # [02:00] <rniwa> MikeSmith: from that perspective, the current design of ting the command state to the element
  178. # [02:00] <rniwa> and furthermore having inputelement-like checked state isnt' ideal
  179. # [02:01] <rniwa> because you may want to have multiple UI widgets referring to the same command
  180. # [02:01] <rniwa> e.g. <select command="color"><option>blue<option>green
  181. # [02:01] <rniwa> <
  182. # [02:01] <rniwa> </select>
  183. # [02:02] <rniwa> in this case, you want blue or green to be selected when color command's state is blue or green
  184. # [02:02] <rniwa> but in addition to this select element
  185. # [02:02] <rniwa> the same app may have another UI widget that has <input type="color">
  186. # [02:02] <rniwa> MikeSmith: and this one should automatically reflect whatever the current command value is
  187. # [02:03] <MikeSmith> OK
  188. # [02:03] <rniwa> MikeSmith: furthermore, we probably want to let authors to define and implement their own custom UI component
  189. # [02:03] <rniwa> MikeSmith: and those component should probably be able to be notified of command state's change
  190. # [02:03] <rniwa> MikeSmith: so we need some sort of registry mechanism
  191. # [02:03] <rniwa> MikeSmith: also we need to be able to scope commands
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  193. # [02:04] <rniwa> e.g. many websites include WYSIWYG editors but commands available inside a editor are vastly different from those available outside the editor
  194. # [02:05] <rniwa> MikeSmith: but there's a lot of "data-binding" aspect here though
  195. # [02:05] <MikeSmith> yeah, so that gets into the components stuff
  196. # [02:05] <rniwa> right
  197. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> and maybe it's good to wait on the command things until components is further along
  198. # [02:06] <rniwa> MikeSmith: could be
  199. # [02:06] <rniwa> MikeSmith: but I think we can start the discussion
  200. # [02:06] <rniwa> MikeSmith: and get more attentions
  201. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> yeah
  202. # [02:06] <rniwa> MikeSmith: because we definitely need a good API to define toolbars, menus, and semantically connect those components
  203. # [02:07] <rniwa> MikeSmith: I was hoping to get the discussion started by now but it seems like I've caught up by other stuff :(
  204. # [02:07] <rniwa> so maybe I'll do that in Jan
  205. # [02:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
  206. # [02:08] <MikeSmith> I think we should also plan to have another face to face meeting in the valley next spring
  207. # [02:08] <rniwa> MikeSmith: but this is definitely something I'll be interested in
  208. # [02:08] <rniwa> MikeSmith: oh that'll be nice :)
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  210. # [02:08] <rniwa> though i'm sure google doesn't mind flying me over to anywhere if we can be productive like we were in this TPAC
  211. # [02:09] <MikeSmith> yeah, we need to do it for sure
  212. # [02:10] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-58-11-130-209.revip2.asianet.co.th) (Quit: Leaving)
  213. # [02:16] <rniwa> MikeSmith: anyway, I'm planning to work on command API in the coming months
  214. # [02:17] <rniwa> MikeSmith: it's just that i've been swamped by other work
  215. # [02:17] <rniwa> also I really want to get my undomanager ready for early adaptation by the end of the year
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  218. # [02:27] <zewt> heh
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  220. # [02:27] <zewt> gui text editors with broken undo are so much worse than a simple textbox editor that i almost don't know why gmail bothers
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  222. # [02:28] <zewt> if i undo one more time in gmail, and have it revert a change a mile away without showing me what...
  223. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> yeah, please
  224. # [02:28] <zewt> then i have to redo, and (since it still doesn't show what changed) i just have to cross my fingers and hope
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  240. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  244. # [03:10] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  245. # [03:10] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  254. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> so David Flanagan has his JS-based HTML parser working with node.js now
  255. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/#!/__DavidFlanagan/status/139512471949017088
  256. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/andreasgal/dom.js
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  384. # [11:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: can I share your Google+ post on the WHATWG page?
  385. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> sure
  386. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> of course
  387. # [11:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: it's currently semi-private, but it seems just public info
  388. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> oh
  389. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> yeah, pretty much the only things I make private like that are when I don't think it's necessarily of interest to everybody in my circles
  390. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> so I have a "interested in browser stuff" circle that I post that too
  391. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> shit
  392. # [11:31] <annevk> hmm it seems I cannot share it
  393. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> big earthquake somewhere
  394. # [11:31] <annevk> I guess WHATWG is not in that circle
  395. # [11:31] <annevk> oh
  396. # [11:31] <annevk> :(
  397. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> lemme add it
  398. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> I thought it was
  399. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> hokkaido
  400. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> http://quake.twiple.jp/quake/view/20111124192542
  401. # [11:33] * annevk I have a workaround I think
  402. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> hmm, I don't know how I can change a post to public after I posted it..
  403. # [11:34] <annevk> no workaround did not work
  404. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> ah, I see
  405. # [11:34] <annevk> I shared it with +WHATWG
  406. # [11:34] <annevk> but then +WHATWG cannot share it with the public
  407. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> hmm, I still don't see how I can change the original post to being public
  408. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> I guess I can't
  409. # [11:35] <Workshiva> You can't
  410. # [11:36] <annevk> it's all lost :)
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  412. # [11:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: where do you normally put redirects for specs?
  413. # [11:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: in their parent directory?
  414. # [11:38] <jgraham> In which we discover the fundamental limitation of circles. They are great for solving the "I only want to share drunken photos with my friends" problem but totally useless for the "I publish on multiple topics but the audience for each topic is not the same"
  415. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> yeah, usually
  416. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yup
  417. # [11:39] <annevk> MikeSmith: might be easier for you actually
  418. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> OK
  419. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> XHR spec?
  420. # [11:40] <annevk> to redirect http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/ and http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/ to http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  421. # [11:40] <annevk> yup
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  424. # [11:46] <Workshiva> jgraham: Or rather, circles solve sender ACLs, not receiver filtering
  425. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK, done
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  427. # [11:48] <jgraham> Workshiva: If you want to be all fancy about it :p
  428. # [11:50] <Workshiva> Maybe one day you'll be able to filter by hashtags
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  431. # [12:08] <hsivonen> yay. HTML in XHR broke Wolfram Alpha
  432. # [12:10] <hsivonen> alos, having the HTML parser run uselessly on Gmail is not good
  433. # [12:10] <hsivonen> I'm leaning more and more towards supporting HTML only if responseType == "document"
  434. # [12:10] <hsivonen> to avoid opting all legacy in
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  439. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in what way does it run uselessly on Gmail?
  440. # [12:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Gmail does XHR to a text/html resource and has been written before HTML in XHR existed
  441. # [12:20] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#specification-history
  442. # [12:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so either they have written code that knows how to handle HTML in XHR in advance
  443. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> ah
  444. # [12:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: or HTML parsing happens uselessly and they use responseText anyway
  445. # [12:21] <annevk> lets make it "document" only
  446. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> I see
  447. # [12:21] <hsivonen> annevk: sold!
  448. # [12:22] <annevk> that way we don't need the weird async difference either
  449. # [12:22] <smaug____> "document" only sounds ok to me
  450. # [12:24] <jgraham> Oooh a bandwagon! I'll jump on!
  451. # [12:26] <hsivonen> smaug____: is it intentional that we don't throw for "document" in the sync mode yet?
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  453. # [12:27] <smaug____> hsivonen: hmm, is there some patch waiting for landing..
  454. # [12:29] <smaug____> seems like so
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  464. # [12:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: can you create a notifications repo that jgraham can access?
  465. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> sure
  466. # [12:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: "notifications" as a name seems fine
  467. # [12:39] <annevk> sweet
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  470. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/notifications/
  471. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: ↑
  472. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> with that I step out to get some food
  473. # [12:51] <annevk> thanks man
  474. # [12:54] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Cool, thanks
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  542. # [15:42] <annevk> hsivonen: you around?
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  544. # [15:43] <annevk> hsivonen: I wondered whether for http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#text-response-entity-body the only part that should be restricted to legacy is the XML handling
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  547. # [15:52] <annevk> I will read your emails again instead of this lazy approach
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  549. # [16:03] <hsivonen> annevk: I think step #4 should only apply for responseType == ""
  550. # [16:03] <hsivonen> annevk: I think it shouldn't apply to responseType == "text"
  551. # [16:03] <hsivonen> or chunked-text
  552. # [16:03] <annevk> right
  553. # [16:03] <annevk> I just made that change
  554. # [16:03] <annevk> (not pushed yet)
  555. # [16:03] <hsivonen> ok
  556. # [16:04] <annevk> now for document I will change that text/html only works for "document"
  557. # [16:04] <hsivonen> in other news, detecting HTML in XHR support is complicated: https://developer.mozilla.org/En/HTML_in_XMLHttpRequest#Feature_Detection
  558. # [16:04] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  559. # [16:04] <annevk> and then update the bug filed on HTML
  560. # [16:04] <annevk> or can you update that bug?
  561. # [16:04] <annevk> you probably know better what the HTML spec has to say
  562. # [16:05] <hsivonen> ok
  563. # [16:09] <annevk> I was afraid these changes would be much harder
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  565. # [16:11] <annevk> hsivonen: the spec is updated, I just need add the more specific invocation for the HTML parser spec
  566. # [16:13] <hsivonen> I commented on the bug
  567. # [16:13] <hsivonen> annevk: thank you
  568. # [16:13] <annevk> thank you too!
  569. # [16:13] <annevk> :)
  570. # [16:14] <annevk> hsivonen: is the parser run with scripting disabled?
  571. # [16:15] <hsivonen> annevk: yes (as required by the spec draft I read!)
  572. # [16:15] <annevk> hsivonen: okay, I'll add that to the bug to make sure hixie considers that as an option
  573. # [16:17] <annevk> hsivonen: I sometimes wonder whether it should be "act as if scripting was on but do not actually run scripts" so you do not get unexpected <noscript> stuff, but I think it does not matter much and the current solution is arguably cleaner
  574. # [16:20] <timeless> hsivonen: you need to fix your page
  575. # [16:20] <timeless> it talks about XHR2
  576. # [16:20] <timeless> but annevk just spent time killing XHR2 :)
  577. # [16:24] <annevk> ah sorry about that
  578. # [16:24] <annevk> XHR will not have version numbers anymore
  579. # [16:24] <annevk> if it's up to me
  580. # [16:25] <timeless> annevk: you didn't do anything wrong, hsivonen just needs to fix it
  581. # [16:25] <timeless> although, it's a wiki, you could do it if you like :)
  582. # [16:25] * timeless objects to wikis, they require creating more passwords which is annoying
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  586. # [16:31] <hsivonen> timeless: good point
  587. # [16:31] <hsivonen> Living XHR
  588. # [16:32] * hsivonen lands some XHR code before fixing the docs
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  595. # [16:52] <hsivonen> timeless: I fixed the documentation
  596. # [16:53] <timeless> kinda
  597. # [16:53] <timeless> it should say "the X dated version" adds
  598. # [16:53] <timeless> otherwise it sounds tautological
  599. # [16:53] <timeless> The XMLHttpRequest specification adds HTML parsing support to XMLHttpRequest.
  600. # [16:54] <timeless> it doesn't actually need to says <Dated version>, but you roughly need to indicate that this happened during its evolution instead of just saying it added it to what seems like itself
  601. # [16:55] <timeless> and giving a date is moderately helpful for people trying to figure out if some browser not covered by a table at the bottom has a prayer of supporting it
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  606. # [17:08] <hsivonen> timeless: I made the first sentence make more sense. Beyond that, it's a wiki. :-)
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  609. # [17:14] <AryehGregor> Google Docs' selection handling is unbelievably messed up.
  610. # [17:14] <AryehGregor> Like: position cursor at beginning of line. Shift+Down Arrow. Ctrl-X. Move to beginning of another line. Ctrl-V.
  611. # [17:14] <AryehGregor> Result? It prepends it to the second line instead of adding a new line before the current line.
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  613. # [17:15] <AryehGregor> Same as if you did Shift+End instead of Shift+Down Arrow.
  614. # [17:15] <AryehGregor> And with RTL, arrows move in logical direction, not visual. So the right arrow moves left and vice versa. Which frankly might make some sense, but it's not what any other program in the universe does.
  615. # [17:16] <AryehGregor> If you're going to reinvent the wheel, is it too much to ask that you do it properly? How is it that GNOME people are capable of doing all this stuff basically as people expect but Google isn't?
  616. # [17:16] * AryehGregor grumbles
  617. # [17:18] <annevk> I omitted the SotD in the editor's draft: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  618. # [17:18] <annevk> and included "Participate:" similar to what WHATWG HTML uses
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  620. # [17:19] <timeless> hsivonen: alright :)
  621. # [17:20] <timeless> AryehGregor: i was going to say "at least you aren't playing w/ RTL"
  622. # [17:20] <annevk> maybe I should omit abstract too
  623. # [17:20] * timeless just filed some bugs about non English UI foolishness
  624. # [17:20] <annevk> yes I should
  625. # [17:20] <timeless> this app which is aware of the input method editor (on screen keyboard)
  626. # [17:20] <AryehGregor> timeless, I was dumping the text of my sheva berachos invitation in Google Docs for safe-keeping.
  627. # [17:21] <timeless> asked the user to enter text in English
  628. # [17:21] <timeless> but the IME only supports Hebrew (and has no way to switch)
  629. # [17:21] <timeless> or the IME only supports Arabic (and has no way to switch)
  630. # [17:22] <timeless> oh, and i haven't found a way to insert BiDi push markers w/ the keyboard
  631. # [17:22] <timeless> so I end up with stupid things like:
  632. # [17:22] <AryehGregor> timeless, the Google Translate app for Android is ingenious like that. Translate from Hebrew to English . . . without being able to enter Hebrew!
  633. # [17:22] <timeless> 4. In foo, select CIBARA or .WERBEH
  634. # [17:22] <timeless> AryehGregor: that makes me feel so much better
  635. # [17:23] * timeless likes not being alone
  636. # [17:23] <AryehGregor> (supposedly my version of Android natively supports Hebrew, but it actually doesn't)
  637. # [17:23] <timeless> lol
  638. # [17:23] <AryehGregor> (that will be more interesting when I move to Israel in a few months)
  639. # [17:23] <AryehGregor> (for now I use a third-party keyboard when necessary)
  640. # [17:23] <timeless> my BlackBerry thankfully has both Hebrew as a UI language and Hebrew for hardware and software keyboards
  641. # [17:23] <timeless> there are just a couple of rough edges
  642. # [17:23] <timeless> which are mostly things you'd *never* see
  643. # [17:24] <timeless> (hence me only spotting them now and not months ago)
  644. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> Yes, Hebrew works fine on my fiancée's Blackberry, although it's not unlocked, so in Israel it will mostly serve as an expensive paperweight.
  645. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> Actually, Hebrew text doesn't render even remotely correctly in my version of Android either.
  646. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> Nexus One.
  647. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> It's incredibly annoying.
  648. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> It's sometimes displayed in reverse order, and nikkud is absolutely hopeless.
  649. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> And apparently my phone is now too old to get updates anymore.
  650. # [17:27] <timeless> cyanogen?
  651. # [17:27] <AryehGregor> Which I got, uh, like a year and a half ago?
  652. # [17:27] <AryehGregor> Amazingly lame.
  653. # [17:27] <AryehGregor> Yes, I might have to resort to Cyanogen.
  654. # [17:28] <timeless> http://theunderstatement.com/post/11982112928/android-orphans-visualizing-a-sad-history-of-support
  655. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> That is horrifying.
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  659. # [17:41] <jgraham> I just noticed Brendan Eich accused someone else of writing an overlong bug comment
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  661. # [17:41] <jgraham> That is funny
  662. # [17:41] <jgraham> Also, if anyone is writing a dictionary and needs good examples for irony ^
  663. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> It was probably on one of the WebIDL bugs I filed, right?
  664. # [17:42] <jgraham> Yeah, the legacyconst one
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  669. # [17:50] <timeless> AryehGregor: i take it you haven't seen that before?
  670. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> No.
  671. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> I mean, I knew the basic fact, I just didn't see the detailed analysis.
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  673. # [17:51] * timeless thought it made news everywhere
  674. # [17:51] <annevk> hsivonen: thanks for that tweet btw
  675. # [17:51] <annevk> hsivonen: seems that's sufficient to inform the world the new state of affairs :)
  676. # [17:51] <jgraham> I thought it was generally agreed that the iPhone parts of that figure wre misleading
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  678. # [17:53] <timeless> jgraham: no
  679. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> In what way?
  680. # [17:53] <timeless> what was agreed was that people can't read labels
  681. # [17:53] <timeless> (or perhaps "people don't read")
  682. # [17:55] <timeless> AryehGregor: people somehow had trouble understanding that "on current major version" doesn't mean "on current major version <today>" it means "<on current major version at the relative mark time indicated -- based on the original release date>"
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  685. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> That was apparent to me.
  686. # [17:55] <timeless> if you look at /. and others, you'll discover that people can't read
  687. # [17:56] <timeless> and/or can't interpret charts
  688. # [17:56] <timeless> it's incredibly depressing
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  690. # [17:59] <jgraham> (alternative theory: the visualisation is bad is bad)
  691. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> I think the visualization here was good. It makes it clear how long each phone gets updates.
  692. # [17:59] <timeless> it would be possible to make the graph have a <date> based x axis
  693. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> But then it would be harder to compare meaningfully.
  694. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> You'd know which phones are up-to-date now, but it would be bad for telling how long each one got support.
  695. # [17:59] <timeless> but then you'd have to do a heck of a lot of scanning
  696. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> It is a bit confusing that the chart only goes to three years, so if you don't pay attention you might think the oldest iPhones are still supported. It should be extended to the present in all cases.
  697. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> Although then it's confusing in a different way.
  698. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  699. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> Visualization is hard.
  700. # [18:01] <timeless> that could be done i suppose
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  717. # [19:15] <annevk> are data URLs already same origin with the XMLHttpRequest origin?
  718. # [19:16] <annevk> or does XMLHttpRequest need to say something for that?
  719. # [19:18] <timeless> what do people use for temporary image uploads?
  720. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> I used to use http://imageshack.us/ when I did that
  721. # [19:20] <timeless> thanks
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  724. # [19:21] <timeless> AryehGregor: http://imageshack.us/f/687/016aandroidorphansbydat.png/
  725. # [19:21] <timeless> is that really better?
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  729. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> Anybody who feels like figuring out what setInterval.length should be?
  730. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor?
  731. # [19:26] <timeless> heh
  732. # [19:27] <timeless> lol, gecko says 0
  733. # [19:27] <Ms2ger> Yep
  734. # [19:27] <Ms2ger> Bug was filed in 2003
  735. # [19:28] <timeless> IE says the same fwiw
  736. # [19:28] <timeless> it's probably based on the fact that the first argument type was chaotic
  737. # [19:28] <timeless> so gecko idl was foo setInterval(void);
  738. # [19:29] <timeless> where the c++ impl stole arguments from the js stack
  739. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> Indeed
  740. # [19:29] <smaug____> we should change that
  741. # [19:29] <smaug____> to take jsvals
  742. # [19:29] <timeless> Chrome agrees w/ 0
  743. # [19:29] <smaug____> as parameters
  744. # [19:29] <timeless> so i think we have all the browsers agreeing on 0
  745. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> smaug____, we can't do that yet :)
  746. # [19:30] <smaug____> hmm, why not
  747. # [19:30] <timeless> is there a really big reason for changing it?
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  750. # [19:30] <smaug____> consistency would be a good reason
  751. # [19:30] <timeless> other than breaking any site that happens to already be using this value?
  752. # [19:30] <Ms2ger> The setInterval(fun, timeout, arg1, ...) form
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  754. # [19:31] <smaug____> ah, the ... part
  755. # [19:32] * Ms2ger patiently awaits the WebIDL parser
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  758. # [19:43] <timeless> Ms2ger: so, you'd rather the value be 2?
  759. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> No, I don't care
  760. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> I want to close bugs
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  765. # [19:49] <timeless> oh brother
  766. # [19:49] <timeless> Safari says the answer is 2
  767. # [19:50] * timeless wonders if that's just because it's an older version of webkit
  768. # [19:50] <annevk> either you are playing this naive or you should be pleased because there's several engines that actually agree here!
  769. # [19:50] <timeless> 5.1.1 (7534.51.22)
  770. # [19:50] <annevk> usually it's like 4 browsers, 6 different answers
  771. # [19:50] <timeless> heh
  772. # [19:52] <timeless> opera also says 0
  773. # [19:52] <timeless> so, Safari is my only odd man out
  774. # [19:52] <_bga> annevk does not count Konqueror heh
  775. # [19:52] <timeless> 4/5 browsers agree the answer is 0
  776. # [19:52] <timeless> the answer is 0. resolved.
  777. # [19:52] <timeless> i'm assuming that safari would say 0 if i could get a newer webkit backend for it
  778. # [19:53] <timeless> annevk: yes, i naively assumed that both webkit browsers on my computer would agree
  779. # [19:53] <annevk> _bga: maybe I didn't count IE and Konquerer, who knows
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  781. # [19:54] <timeless> grr
  782. # [19:54] <annevk> timeless: fwiw, with Web IDL it's also often the case that there is interop, but everyone wants to change to something new instead
  783. # [19:54] <timeless> rim's webkit also says 2
  784. # [19:54] * timeless doesn't remember how to ask what version of webkit this has
  785. # [19:54] <annevk> timeless: I suspect it depends on the ECMAScript implementation or maybe a timer implementation if that is also not in WebKit itself
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  788. # [19:56] <timeless> ok, i have webkit 534.11+ if my blackberry ua is to be trusted
  789. # [19:56] <timeless> annevk: yeah, i know
  790. # [19:56] <timeless> re webidl and vendors wanting to change even w/ interop
  791. # [19:57] <timeless> my guess though here is that webkit changed and my safari/torch browsers are just old webkits
  792. # [19:57] <timeless> (i could check, it isn't worth my time right now)
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  794. # [19:58] <timeless> anyone know if giuseppe pascale (opera) irc's outside of meetings?
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  800. # [20:03] <annevk> sometimes internally
  801. # [20:03] <timeless> i'd like to send him backchannel on irc, it's easier than me writing tiny emails on my phone
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  803. # [20:05] <annevk> I'd just ask him
  804. # [20:06] <annevk> (which would require an email :) )
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  815. # [20:21] <timeless> my aren't we helpful :)
  816. # [20:21] <timeless> AryehGregor / jgraham : i'd really be interested in knowing if you found http://imageshack.us/f/687/016aandroidorphansbydat.png/ to be better/more useful
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  820. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> annevk, the last example in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#examples-0 may be missing a decimal point
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  845. # [22:05] <timeless> anyone here speak japanese / happen to recognize jakomobile.com ?
  846. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, ^
  847. # [22:06] <MikeSmith> timeless: there's not japanese on that page :)
  848. # [22:06] <MikeSmith> and I never heard of jakomobile
  849. # [22:07] <timeless> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1388112
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  855. # [22:25] * MikeSmith looks at timeless link
  856. # [22:25] <timeless> thanks
  857. # [22:25] * timeless was wondering if MikeSmith died
  858. # [22:25] <MikeSmith> been working on slides I was asked to send to an event organizer a week ago :)
  859. # [22:26] <MikeSmith> for a presentation tomorrow
  860. # [22:27] <MikeSmith> so this is some kind of service that you apparently were signed up for
  861. # [22:27] <MikeSmith> the details about what the service actually is are sparse
  862. # [22:27] <MikeSmith> but maybe a gaming service?
  863. # [22:27] <MikeSmith> something called A-Team?
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  873. # [22:52] <timeless> do i want to try to tell them i didn't sign up for it?
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  881. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> timeless: dunno
  882. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> it is a legitimate service at least
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  885. # [23:09] <timeless> ok, so, according to gmail's translate, i send email to the jakomobile address, is that correct?
  886. # [23:09] * timeless thanks MikeSmith for taking the time to look
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  889. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  896. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution."
  897. # [23:24] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  898. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> "pleas to evolve are drowned in the politics of an aging organization resistant to change"
  899. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> "People have a great capacity for change. Those people can and will continue to lead us as our institutions fail and eventually harm us."
  900. # [23:27] <Ms2ger> Context?
  901. # [23:27] <MikeSmith> "still solving a problem projects don't have, source hosting, appears to be beyond the capabilities of the organization"
  902. # [23:27] <MikeSmith> http://www.mikealrogers.com/posts/apache-considered-harmful.html
  903. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> "People and their contributions are as transparent as we can imagine and the direct connection of these people to each other turn social problems back in to social problems rather than political problems."
  904. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> "it is hosted, developed, and maintained by someone but they do not enforce any set of governance or process over the users of the system"
  905. # [23:29] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.69) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  906. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> "became a very political organism and navigating those politics has come to require more and more institutional knowledge over the years"
  907. # [23:35] * Ms2ger likes how http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/ looks exactly the same in every browser
  908. # [23:36] <timeless> not lynx :)
  909. # [23:36] <timeless> and technically it depends on which of three fonts you have
  910. # [23:36] <timeless> since that controls how NO! is rendered :)
  911. # [23:37] <timeless> http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com
  912. # [23:38] * timeless likes that the site has been around for years and is properly indexed
  913. # [23:39] <timeless> MikeSmith: it's unfortunate that the author of that post didn't use a spell checker
  914. # [23:39] * timeless wonders if that's because Apache doesn't have one
  915. # [23:42] <MikeSmith> timeless: man, I think few people would read that post and have their first comment be that it needs a spell checker
  916. # [23:42] <MikeSmith> you're exceptional :)
  917. # [23:42] <timeless> thanks :)
  918. # [23:42] <timeless> actually, what was going through my mind was a parallelism to a mozilla thread
  919. # [23:42] <timeless> involving webdev v. webtools
  920. # [23:42] <timeless> but i didn't really want to share that
  921. # [23:43] <timeless> what bothers me is that having arguments which are probably fairly good
  922. # [23:43] <timeless> but happen to be tarnished by silly easily catchable errors
  923. # [23:44] <timeless> makes it harder to be willing to present them in other venues w/o having their value discarded for lack of ...
  924. # [23:44] * timeless tries to find a similar complaint by someone else about an even shorter thing in a different context
  925. # [23:45] <timeless> gah, the fact that lists.mozilla.org and mail.mozilla.org aren't the same is um...
  926. # [23:46] <timeless> > oh, God forbid Mozilla hire fucking editors: "When discussing the list else where, please respect people's privacy and do name participants, individuals or companies. "
  927. # [23:46] <timeless> > https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/enterprise
  928. # [23:47] <timeless> n.b. that seems to have been corrected
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  932. # [23:56] * Quits: c_t_montgomery (~c_t_montg@cpe-76-92-215-21.kc.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  933. # [23:56] * c_t_montgomery_ is now known as c_t_montgomery
  934. # [23:59] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@84.38.144.96)
  935. # [23:59] * Quits: diraol (~diraol@bd2147f5.virtua.com.br) (Quit: Leaving.)
  936. # Session Close: Fri Nov 25 00:00:00 2011

The end :)