/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 07 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  4. # [00:02] <Hixie> tantek: ok, i'll commit the patch to the whatwg copy; can you let the htmlwg know of it?
  5. # [00:06] <Hixie> tantek: it's checked in
  6. # [00:07] <tantek> thanks much!
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  8. # [00:08] <Hixie> diff url is http://html5.org/r/6845
  9. # [00:09] <Hixie> heycam: yt?
  10. # [00:10] <heycam> Hixie, hi
  11. # [00:10] <Hixie> heycam: so people don't like that DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope and SharedWorkerGlobalScope both seem to be WorkerGlobalScopes
  12. # [00:11] <Hixie> heycam: so i'm changing the spec so that dedicated workers have a global scope that's a DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope, and similarly for shared workers
  13. # [00:11] <heycam> let me open the spec and remind myself how they're currently specced
  14. # [00:11] <Hixie> heycam: but it'd be nice if i could hide that they really inherit from WorkerGlobalScope
  15. # [00:11] <Hixie> heycam: so my question is, is there some way i can have an inheritance hierarchy in the spec but flatten it in implementations?
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> heycam: so that the result is the same as if i had specced it with some copy-and-paste
  17. # [00:12] <heycam> is that not what you were intending to use the [Supplemental] in the spec currently for?
  18. # [00:12] <heycam> and can you clarify what you mean about people not liking that they "both seem to be WorkerGlobalScopes"?
  19. # [00:12] <Hixie> the current spec text is trying to get the flattening but with the name of hte interface being the ancestor interface
  20. # [00:13] <Hixie> whereas i now want to flatten them so that the interfaces have their derived names
  21. # [00:13] <Hixie> and the ancestor name is a spec detail
  22. # [00:13] <Hixie> so you can't tell in the prototype chain that the global scope is defined as two interfaces
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  24. # [00:14] <heycam> I feel like this has come up before and I've wondered why it is important not to be able to observe the inheritance
  25. # [00:14] <Hixie> the reasoning here being that there's no point splitting the interface in two, since a script in a worker can only ever get one instance of this interface anyway, so why waste the author's time having the author remember which interface they have to poke to override something
  26. # [00:15] <Hixie> it looks silly to have a singleton defined by a hierarchy of unique interface prototype objects
  27. # [00:15] <heycam> ok, i can see that
  28. # [00:15] <annevk> Hixie: use implements + NoInterfaceObject
  29. # [00:15] <heycam> yes just what I was going to say
  30. # [00:15] <Hixie> aha, that works, cool
  31. # [00:16] <heycam> but in more words :)
  32. # [00:16] <Hixie> and don't inherit
  33. # [00:16] <Hixie> ok
  34. # [00:16] <annevk> nn
  35. # [00:16] <heycam> bb
  36. # [00:16] <Hixie> nn
  37. # [00:16] <ap_> Hixie: is <li value="-1"> actually supposed to work now?
  38. # [00:17] * heycam wonders if that is the final instance of [Supplemental] which will now be disappearing
  39. # [00:17] <Hixie> heycam: i believe so, it's why i'm poking at this. will let you know.
  40. # [00:17] <ap_> as in, the browser will display "-1."
  41. # [00:17] <heycam> cool cool
  42. # [00:17] <Hixie> ap_: yes
  43. # [00:18] <heycam> so before when you said "so people don't …" you actually meant "you don't like" ;)
  44. # [00:18] <Hixie> heycam: not just you, but any means
  45. # [00:18] <heycam> k
  46. # [00:18] <ap_> Hixie: do you happen to know if there are any list-style-type that cannot express negative numbers in print, or use something other than a "-"?
  47. # [00:18] <Hixie> heycam: the actual e-mail i had in my pile to remind me of this was from sicking
  48. # [00:19] <Hixie> ap_: lots don't have negative numbers (e.g. roman, alphabetic), no idea if any don't use -
  49. # [00:19] <Hixie> TabAtkins: ping ^
  50. # [00:19] <Hixie> ap_: (those that don't support the range defer to decimal for unsupported numbers)
  51. # [00:20] <ap_> Hixie: thanks. where is the "defer to decimal" part specced?
  52. # [00:20] <heycam> single, busy mailing lists better than multiple, quieter ones: http://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern/
  53. # [00:20] <zewt> heycam: a fact that's been basic knowledge for years :P
  54. # [00:20] <Hixie> ap_: looks like css3 lists supports the negative punctuation being explicitly set for a counter, e.g. to use parentheses: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-lists/#descdef-negative
  55. # [00:21] <Hixie> ap_: looks like there's a whole descriptor thing for lists, and fallback is specified by http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-lists/#descdef-fallback
  56. # [00:21] <heycam> zewt, I should probably merge some mail folders and not just have a single folder per list, now that I have to vertically scroll in thunderbird to see them all...
  57. # [00:21] <Hixie> no idea what the non-TR/ link is for this, i don't see a link at the top
  58. # [00:22] <zewt> heycam: it's really lame that gmail's label grouping doesn't let you view the group and see all of the sub-labels
  59. # [00:22] <heycam> oh, that does sound a bit lame
  60. # [00:22] <heycam> still, "all email clients suck"
  61. # [00:22] <zewt> it does nothing but gruop them visually in the label list ( = who cares)
  62. # [00:23] <ap_> Hixie: thanks
  63. # [00:24] <zewt> also group
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  66. # [00:31] <Hixie> heycam: i have this paragraph for the three interfaces that define the interface of global scope objects:
  67. # [00:31] <Hixie> <p>The <code>DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope</code> interface must not
  68. # [00:31] <Hixie> exist if the interface's <span>relevant namespace object</span> is
  69. # [00:31] <Hixie> not a <code>DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope</code> object. <a
  70. # [00:31] <Hixie> href="#refsWEBIDL">[WEBIDL]</a></p>
  71. # [00:31] <Hixie> heycam: does it make sense to ahve an attribute for that? [GlobalScopeInterface] or something?
  72. # [00:33] <heycam> good question, I am not sure just yet what's the best way of describing this
  73. # [00:33] <Hixie> k. i'll leave it with that paragraph for now.
  74. # [00:34] <heycam> ok. "relevant namespace object" as a term will likely disappear soon, since we're going to drop modules from Web IDL.
  75. # [00:34] <heycam> I'll have a think about whether it makes sense to talk about globals in the spec
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  79. # [00:37] <Hixie> heycam: ah ok. let me know if/when you do that so i can update this accordingly (or i can update it now if you have any idea what it should say instead?)
  80. # [00:37] <heycam> Hixie, leave it for now and I'll let you know how to update it once I've figured it out :)
  81. # [00:37] <Hixie> maybe "the ThisBinding of the global execution context" or something
  82. # [00:38] <Hixie> (that's the terminology we use to talk about WindowProxy's effects)
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  93. # [00:53] <tantek> zewt - I added your additional opinion and data point to the proposal
  94. # [00:54] <tantek> Hixie - status updated in the proposal to reflect its inclusion in the spec. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#permit_space_instead_of_T_in_datetimes
  95. # [00:54] <tantek> one bit of consensus at a time. I'll follow-up on public-html.
  96. # [00:55] <Hixie> tantek: cool, tanks
  97. # [00:55] <Hixie> thanks even
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  108. # [01:47] <tantek> ok email to public-html sent. onto the next issue. yay.
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  133. # [02:47] <AryehGregor> Okay, I seriously feel Google Docs has regressed in functionality sometime over the last few weeks. Yet another minor thing that' drives me crazy:
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  135. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> Yet another minor thing that's been driving me crazy: have one line that starts with an LTR word followed by one that starts with an RTL word. Go to start of line beginning with LTR word. Hit down arrow. The cursor is now visually at the beginning of the next line, but logically in the middle -- any new text you insert will be logically after the RTL word at the start of the line.
  136. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> Argh.
  137. # [02:48] * AryehGregor is going to look for places to officially complain soon
  138. # [02:49] <tantek> now try combining that LTR / RTL mixing with text-overflow:ellipsis for extra good times.
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  156. # [03:52] <roc> jamesr: Gecko handles non-BMP characters pretty well
  157. # [03:52] <roc> zewt: IVS too
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  159. # [03:53] <jamesr> roc: in the native code?
  160. # [03:54] <roc> what do you mean "native code"?
  161. # [03:54] <jamesr> c++
  162. # [03:54] <zewt> yeah, the native part is easy, it's the user scripts part that's hard
  163. # [03:54] <jamesr> i'm interested in how you would handle this from javascript, if you do
  164. # [03:54] <jamesr> do you roll your own length / slice / etc functions?
  165. # [03:55] <zewt> well, usually you don't actually "need" the length (for definitions of "length" more complicated than "the number of codepoints")
  166. # [03:55] <roc> It's sort of like UTF-8
  167. # [03:55] <roc> a lot of the things you do with strings just work
  168. # [03:55] <zewt> it's exactly like utf-8 (except you need more data to handle it correctly, eg. knowing which codepoints are combining)
  169. # [03:55] <zewt> er
  170. # [03:55] <zewt> + surrogates of course
  171. # [03:55] <roc> editing and selection are interesting
  172. # [03:55] <zewt> (sorry, multitasking too much)
  173. # [03:55] <jamesr> yeah - mapping selection ranges to strings and such can be very tricky
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  175. # [03:56] <jamesr> or questions like "what's the first letter"
  176. # [03:56] <zewt> or just avoiding splitting surrogates in half
  177. # [03:56] <zewt> i havn't tried dealing with it myself either, so i don't really know what the practical issues are
  178. # [03:56] <roc> A lot of Web pages, even apps, should work fine with non-BMP chars
  179. # [03:56] <zewt> if code is simple, yeah
  180. # [03:57] <zewt> "accidentally" :)
  181. # [03:57] <jamesr> most of the time
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  183. # [03:57] <jamesr> but something like this: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/String/slice#Example:_Using_slice_to_create_a_new_string
  184. # [03:57] <jamesr> will fail if str1 has non-BMP chars at unexpected places
  185. # [03:57] <roc> depends on why you're using slice ... where the offsets came from
  186. # [03:57] <jamesr> by creating str2 with unmatched surrogate pairs
  187. # [03:58] <jamesr> right, so how do you get offsets that respect surrogate pairs? ecmascript doesn't provide any APIs for dealing
  188. # [03:58] <roc> if you searched for some substring and you slice at the start or end of the substring, you're probably OK
  189. # [03:58] <zewt> jamesr: well, technically combining characters also hit that too (even with utf-32), though that's a slightly lower level of breakage than splitting surrogates (the results are comprehensible, even if weird)
  190. # [03:58] <jamesr> are you checking the high bits of each char in JS?
  191. # [03:58] <roc> right, combining chars have basically the same set of problems
  192. # [03:58] <jamesr> let's say you wanted to truncate a long string if it's more than 30 letters long
  193. # [03:58] <zewt> jamesr: offsets should always be literal offsets into the string, not "number of codepoints after surrogate decoding"...
  194. # [03:58] <zewt> yeah, that's where it becomes trickier
  195. # [03:58] <roc> jamesr: use text-overflow:ellipsis!
  196. # [03:59] * jamesr isn't fully confident that webkit will get that right
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  198. # [03:59] <roc> I am very confident Gecko gets that right :-)
  199. # [03:59] <roc> it's basically just part of the clusterization problem
  200. # [03:59] <jamesr> we probably do, i'm not familiar with this part of wk
  201. # [03:59] <roc> that's not really a BMP-related issue at all
  202. # [04:02] <zewt> basically it's a bigger problem with utf-16 because if you get it wrong, you don't just end up with a weird string, you end up with a corrupt one
  203. # [04:03] <zewt> i think you can paste in mismatched surrogates into pages from other sources anyway, so it's not like it's the only way that can be introduced
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  205. # [04:05] <roc> yes
  206. # [04:05] <roc> although strings that start with combining chars aren't technically illegal, they're a real pain to deal with :-)
  207. # [04:06] <zewt> more a pain for implementors than users, i think :P
  208. # [04:06] <zewt> as a user i'd just expect them to act as a non-combining character when there's nothing to combine with (in general)
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  211. # [04:19] <rniwa> oh man... did I miss yet-another unicode goodness discussion?
  212. # [04:19] <zewt> several :)
  213. # [04:20] * rniwa is glad he missed it
  214. # [04:20] <rniwa> I don't wanna know weird webkit unicode bugs
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  216. # [04:21] <zewt> Your search - site:*.w3.org "ExtendedAttributeNoArgs" - did not match any documents.
  217. # [04:21] <zewt> "???"
  218. # [04:23] <heycam> zewt, problem in my grammar?
  219. # [04:24] <zewt> searching for instances of that string in specs other than webidl
  220. # [04:24] <heycam> should be ExtendedAttributeNoArg btw, no "s" on the end
  221. # [04:24] <zewt> (not familiar with webidl at all; was surprised that it didn't even find webidl itself)
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  223. # [04:24] <heycam> but it's just a symbol in the grammar, i wouldn't expect other specs to use that word
  224. # [04:24] <zewt> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-extended-attributes <- NoArgs
  225. # [04:24] <zewt> figuring that out is why i was searching for it :)
  226. # [04:25] <heycam> zewt, ah so it is. oh that's right, i think i renamed it. probably after the last TR publication. :)
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  228. # [04:25] <heycam> it used to say something-or-other "takes no argument", but somebody found that wording a bit weird
  229. # [04:26] <zewt> google's cache is up to date, but for some reason it doesn't find that keyword
  230. # [04:26] <heycam> oh that is weird, because if I do site:dev.w3.org then it does find it
  231. # [04:27] <zewt> was trying to figure out if there's any way to mark up "flags" on functions (sort of like Python decorators), but that's not really a language binding issue, so
  232. # [04:27] <zewt> yeah, smells like a rare "provable google search bug" :)
  233. # [04:28] <zewt> site:dev.w3.org works, site:*.w3.org doesn't (which normally does)
  234. # [04:29] <heycam> (btw I tend to use just site:w3.org, which includes subdomains too)
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  283. # [07:30] <zcorpan> woah. i thought importScripts() was same-origin, too. no idea how i could have missed that
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  287. # [07:41] <zcorpan> wait, wait, wait, wait. people write DTD fragments when proposing a new element?
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  291. # [07:50] <MikeSmith_> yeah, somebody should have given the waved off to that before they sent it
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  322. # [09:05] <jgraham> zcorpan: After thinking a bit I decided to be glad they didn't send in XSD for the new element
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  324. # [09:10] <zcorpan> touche
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  327. # [09:14] <hsivonen> using DTD fragment to propose new elements is a bit like implying that UTF-16 is OK when proposing solutions to the encoding problem
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  330. # [09:23] <zcorpan> hmm, <hr> in <select> is supported in some browsers (on some OSes)? http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4948
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  337. # [09:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: could be a difference between WebKit's old parser and the HTML5 parser
  338. # [09:29] <zcorpan> seems like a nice feature to me
  339. # [09:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: we have four ways to opt in to utf-8
  340. # [09:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you count the two meta syntaxes separately?
  341. # [09:36] <zcorpan> yeah
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  353. # [09:51] <annevk> oh yes
  354. # [09:51] <annevk> I "won" the media type parameter debate on EventSource
  355. # [09:52] <annevk> with data
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  361. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> been very quiet so far this week
  362. # [10:00] * matijsb_ is now known as matijsb
  363. # [10:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: you have been?
  364. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> lists
  365. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> but now I remember I've got about 800 unread message in my inbox
  366. # [10:01] <annevk> ah, just about the ask what you were plotting and scheming
  367. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> I've been in Seoul
  368. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> though I did manage to get some plotting and scheming in while here
  369. # [10:03] <annevk> even now we closed account registration the wiki still gets daily spam
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  373. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: visited the opera korea office
  374. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> and incidentally also finally figured out how to get my mutt to display some korean e-mail messages it wouldn't before
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  376. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> mostly
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  378. # [10:12] <annevk> sounds like a good time :)
  379. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> heh
  380. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> mail UAs here use ks_c_5601-1987 for some reason
  381. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> which as far as I can see is effectively the same as euc-kr
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  383. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> at least all I ended up needing to do for mutt was to alias ks_c_5601-1987 to euc-kr
  384. # [10:15] <jgraham> Is plotting and scheming when you draw graphs in lisp?
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  390. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> heh
  391. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> chrome WebRequest API is interesting
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  393. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: "Apple seems to be working on bringing Web Notification support to Safari"
  394. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> http://peter.sh/2011/12/reverse-flexible-rows-and-columns-socket-api-and-panels/
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  400. # [10:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: read that, sounds cool
  401. # [10:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: hopefully it will get jgraham to do some work on the spec o_O
  402. # [10:37] <jgraham> I know, I know
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  414. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: "No blank line after the signature." is ambiguous and kind of confusing
  415. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> to me at least
  416. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> I first took it to mean, "A blank line after the signature is not allowed."
  417. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> when I tried typing in text in that first line
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  419. # [11:01] <annevk> I'm not that great with error messages I'm afraid
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  453. # [13:00] <gsnedders> Why am I unsurprised at olliej arguing like crazy against multi-vm bindings in WebKit?
  454. # [13:00] <gsnedders> (well, multi-language-vm bindings)
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  457. # [13:02] <annevk> ohunt is great
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  459. # [13:13] <hsivonen> gsnedders: whoa. I didn't read the thread carefully enough. I thought it was multi-vm bindings. is V8 becoming a bi-language VM?
  460. # [13:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No.
  461. # [13:14] <jgraham> Which thread?
  462. # [13:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: My point is WebKit already has multi-VM bindings: JSC and V8
  463. # [13:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Multiple VMs for the same language, yes, but multiple VMs.
  464. # [13:15] <gsnedders> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/018775.html
  465. # [13:18] <smaug____> support for multi-vm has been actively tried to get rid of from Gecko
  466. # [13:20] <hsivonen> annevk: do you have a test suite for responseType == "json" already?
  467. # [13:20] <gsnedders> Presto supported futhark and Carakan for a while concurrently, though that was little work.
  468. # [13:21] <jgraham> So, is it me or is that thread a relic of a poor VCS? I mean there are obviously technical reasons why multi-VM is bad for the web, but the idea of having to ask to create a branch seems weird
  469. # [13:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: They want control over what branches they have in the official repo
  470. # [13:22] <annevk> hsivonen: no
  471. # [13:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: There is no objection to creating a branch elsewhere
  472. # [13:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: they are using SVN, so of course they have a poor VCS :-)
  473. # [13:22] <jgraham> hsivonen: I know
  474. # [13:23] <karlcow> http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2011/12/7/thoughts-on-python3/
  475. # [13:23] <gsnedders> (and there is an official git clone, and I think the recommendation is basically to create a clone of that)
  476. # [13:23] <karlcow> Because as it stands, Python 3 is the XHTML of the programming language world. It's incompatible to what it tries to replace but does not offer much besides being more “correct”.
  477. # [13:24] <jgraham> karlcow: I entirely disagree
  478. # [13:24] <karlcow> that was a quick answer to a looooong blog post
  479. # [13:27] <jgraham> karlcow: Not to the blogpost, to you
  480. # [13:28] <jgraham> Which was one sentence from the blogpost
  481. # [13:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: what karlcow said is a quote from the post
  482. # [13:28] <hsivonen> nevermind
  483. # [13:28] <jgraham> Right, I know that after reading the post :)
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  485. # [13:28] <karlcow> hsivonen: poork markup from me
  486. # [13:28] <jgraham> Right, some quotation marks would have helped
  487. # [13:28] <jgraham> (the conclusion of the blogpost is actually very reasonable)
  488. # [13:28] <hsivonen> I haven't really had a good look at Python 3, but from a distance it sure looks XHTML2-ish
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  491. # [13:30] * Philip` thought it was obvious that karlcow was quoting, because the sentence started with a capital letter :-p
  492. # [13:31] <karlcow> Philip`: and there was no sex-related comments, no approximate English or silly poetic license
  493. # [13:31] <karlcow> which I just achieved in that last sentence
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  497. # [14:00] <jgraham> "LLVM is turning into a real
  498. # [14:00] <jgraham> option for the web."
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  500. # [14:02] <jgraham> Maybe someone should read http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2011-October/043719.html
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  505. # [14:17] <annevk> hsivonen: warning for non-labeled content we should definitely do for HTML I think
  506. # [14:18] <annevk> hsivonen: not sure whether I paid attention at the time, but if Hixie still feels that way I would disagree with him now
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  509. # [14:29] <jgraham> Is it me or is roc's blog dead?
  510. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> jgraham: don't working for me either
  511. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> お探しのブログは見つかりませんでした。
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  566. # [17:08] <zewt> hmm, this is fairly bizarre
  567. # [17:09] <zewt> ff8, in zh-TW Windows (CP950), loading zh-TW HTML with no @lang, is defaulting to a Japanese font
  568. # [17:09] <zewt> it only uses a zh-TW font if I explicitly set @lang, or use Big5 instead of UTF-8
  569. # [17:10] <hsivonen> zewt: is CP950 an exclusively Traditional Chinese encoding?
  570. # [17:10] <zewt> it's windows's equivalent of Big5, which is what it picks if you select "Chinese (Taiwan)"
  571. # [17:11] <zewt> it has a separate encoding for simplified chinese
  572. # [17:11] <hsivonen> zewt: so is the page using CP950 or UTF-8?
  573. # [17:11] <zewt> but it's even more bizarre to pick a *japanese* font, I'd be less surprised if it mixed up zh-TW and zh-CN
  574. # [17:11] <zewt> hsivonen: http://zewt.org/~glenn/test-zh-TW-utf-8.html
  575. # [17:11] <hsivonen> zewt: absent @lang, Unihan in Firefox defaults to Japanese
  576. # [17:12] <zewt> that's very surprising
  577. # [17:12] <hsivonen> zewt: boo. that page doesn't declare its encoding
  578. # [17:12] <zewt> (not to say a bad thing, not depending on the locale like charsets do is a plus, just not what I'd ever expect)
  579. # [17:12] <hsivonen> zewt: having Web content behavior depend on browser locale is evil
  580. # [17:12] <zewt> it does, or it did a minute ago
  581. # [17:13] <zewt> but now apache is being stupid, apparently
  582. # [17:13] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@server52836.uk2net.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  583. # [17:13] <zewt> hsivonen: yes, but a very common evil
  584. # [17:14] <zewt> gave apache a kick and my content-type header is back
  585. # [17:15] * hsivonen mumbles about apache not updating etag when headers change
  586. # [17:15] <zewt> i suppose that so long as in practice, every chinese system also has japanese fonts installed, then that's okay
  587. # [17:15] <zewt> which is the case in Windows, i believe (all asian fonts are installed as a unit)
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  593. # [17:29] <hsivonen> annevk: fwiw, I think I have an implementation of spec-compliant responseType "json"
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  595. # [17:32] <zewt> okay, now i'm confused: what about Chrome? it also appears to default to Japanese for UTF-8, and it doesn't support @lang at all as far as I know
  596. # [17:33] <zewt> ... so, other than setting a zh-TW font by name (evil), how does anyone display zh-TW in chrome?
  597. # [17:33] <zewt> (i expect I'm doing something silly)
  598. # [17:34] <hsivonen> zewt: please file a bug on Chrome
  599. # [17:35] <zewt> saying what? no doubt they already know they don't support @lang, but I'm not sure what the expected path is supposed to be currently
  600. # [17:35] <hsivonen> zewt: saying they should consider @lang when doing font selection
  601. # [17:35] <zewt> they (chrome + webkit) must already know that :)
  602. # [17:36] <hsivonen> zewt: they might not. also, they might not know that someone cares
  603. # [17:36] <zewt> but how's it supposed to work today? are a billion people just hacking around it with explicit font names?
  604. # [17:36] <hsivonen> these newfangled browsers trying to get away without doing stuff that Gecko has done for a decade
  605. # [17:37] <hsivonen> zewt: dunno. possibly.
  606. # [17:37] <hsivonen> zewt: or using parochial encodings
  607. # [17:37] <zewt> if they don't know by now that every Chinese speaker doesn't want pages displayed in a Japanese font, then I don't think I could convince them
  608. # [17:37] <hsivonen> zewt: or does Chrome not vary the font for Chinese legacy encodings?
  609. # [17:38] <zewt> i expect it does for those, though my big5 test is mojibake at the moment; let me see why
  610. # [17:38] <erlehmann> zewt, dont misunderestimate the chromium team!
  611. # [17:39] <zewt> heh
  612. # [17:39] <zewt> well, webkit, really
  613. # [17:39] <zewt> i sort of feel bad for all the blame the chrome guys get for things that are webkit's fault :P
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  616. # [17:42] <zewt> ah, hold on, it's rendering as zn-CN
  617. # [17:42] <zewt> (which is hard for my weak western eyes to distinguish from jp)
  618. # [17:43] <erlehmann> gajin baka!
  619. # [17:43] <zewt> 確かに
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  621. # [17:43] <zewt> i'm an american; i take *pride* in not being able to read other languages!
  622. # [17:43] <hsivonen> zewt: huh? aren't Japanese glyph designs generally closer to Traditional Chinese designs than Simplified Chinese designs?
  623. # [17:43] <erlehmann> western font culture is pig disgusting!
  624. # [17:44] <zewt> hsivonen: i need to pick a test case with bigger character differences
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  626. # [17:45] <erlehmann> hsivonen, japanese glyph designs are most closely resembled by pokemans, see 🐭 🐮 🐯 🐵
  627. # [17:45] <erlehmann> emoji are the new fancy shit!
  628. # [17:46] <erlehmann> though i question the need for U+1F5FE SILHOUETTE OF JAPAN
  629. # [17:46] <zewt> unicode jumped the shark with PILE OF POO
  630. # [17:46] <erlehmann> or U+1F5FC TOKYO TOWER
  631. # [17:46] <erlehmann> zewt, i heard the poop has eyes on ios!
  632. # [17:47] <erlehmann> however i cannot confirm due to not running non-free operating systems. *strokes his neckbeard*
  633. # [17:47] <hsivonen> interesting. accoding to the comments at http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2011/08/09/introducing-oupeng-a-chinese-opera Opera has a Mini server farm behind the Great Firewall
  634. # [17:47] <karlcow> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/miscellaneous_symbols_and_pictographs/list.htm
  635. # [17:48] <erlehmann> a mini server farm! likea beowulf cluster of wall warts!
  636. # [17:48] <erlehmann> karlcow, know any other font besides symbola that can do that?
  637. # [17:48] <erlehmann> i have symbola installed
  638. # [17:48] <erlehmann> but it looks weird
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  640. # [17:49] <erlehmann> how does the apple do it? do they have SVG fonts for emoji?
  641. # [17:49] <erlehmann> hi, cowboy.
  642. # [17:50] <karlcow> hmmm good question not sure what apple installed on the system I haven't checked
  643. # [17:50] * gwicke is now known as gwicke_away
  644. # [17:51] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  645. # [17:51] <erlehmann> the apple confounds me.
  646. # [17:52] <zewt> okay, found the source of my confusion
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  648. # [17:52] <zewt> http://zewt.org/~glenn/encoding%20utf-8.html renders correctly in FF8 in Win7 (my desktop), but incorrectly in XP (my test VM; zh-TW shows the jp glyph)
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  650. # [17:54] <zewt> chrome on http://zewt.org/~glenn/enc/big5.html shows the zh-CN glyph (which is weird--it should be zh-TW, right?)
  651. # [17:57] <hsivonen> zewt: did you test zh-Hant and zh-Hans?
  652. # [17:57] <zewt> nope, don't know anything about those
  653. # [17:57] <zewt> (not that I know a great deal about zh-anything)
  654. # [17:57] <erlehmann> zsh!
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  667. # [18:36] <zewt> fyi, probably not surprisingly, ie8 does use the locale to pick the font
  668. # [18:36] <zewt> (for utf-8)
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  673. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> Are there any websocket api tests already?
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  676. # [18:54] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't know of any public ones
  677. # [18:55] <jgraham> We had some but they also tested the protocol so they need to be updated
  678. # [18:55] <jgraham> (in general testing websockets is pretty hrad)
  679. # [18:55] <jgraham> *hard
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  681. # [18:56] <jgraham> Because you need a server component that can give you arbitary bits on the wire in response to your messages
  682. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> Oh, MS has some
  683. # [18:56] * Joins: gavinc (~gavin@50-0-76-242.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  684. # [18:56] <jgraham> to check that the implementaion does the right thing API wise when it hits various edge cases
  685. # [18:57] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Just "WebSocket in window" type tests?
  686. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> new WebSocket(>2 arguments)
  687. # [18:57] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:a0fc:7660:c681:577a)
  688. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> (Which happens to throw in Gecko)
  689. # [18:59] <jgraham> Hmm, these tests do require a server
  690. # [19:00] <jgraham> http://html5labs-interop.cloudapp.net/
  691. # [19:00] <jgraham> http://html5labs-interop.cloudapp.net/wsdemo.html ... "To view this content please install Silverlight"
  692. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> \o/
  693. # [19:01] * jgraham will look slighly confused for a bit and then get on with something more useful
  694. # [19:02] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f733728.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  695. # [19:03] <zewt> please install a proprietary browser plugin like it's 1999
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  698. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> Interesting, MS's W3C-submitted tests support MozWebSocket
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  701. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> "Undefined variable: WebSocket"
  702. # [19:14] * Ms2ger glares towards Opera
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  720. # [20:03] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Didn't your moher teach you it is rude to glare?
  721. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> My moher didn't, no
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  724. # [20:07] <jgraham> What about your mother? did she teach you that it's rude to mock people's typos?
  725. # [20:09] <shepazu> or did you teach her how to suck eggs?
  726. # [20:09] * Quits: astearns (~anonymous@c-50-132-63-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: astearns)
  727. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> She taught that it's fair game to laugh at doctors in astrophysics
  728. # [20:13] <jgraham> Dammit.
  729. # [20:13] * Joins: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-uitukzrddovkhysw)
  730. # [20:14] <jgraham> I somehow ended up in a ridiculed minority.
  731. # [20:14] <JonathanNeal> Were any of you guys able to check this out? https://github.com/jonathantneal/html5css/blob/master/style.css it's the ua css i wrote up based on the html5 spec.
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  737. # [20:34] <Hixie> annevk: btw, looks like your multipage generator script isn't deleting old sections
  738. # [20:34] <Hixie> annevk: e.g. we still have content-models.html and apis-in-html-documents.html and even video.html which haven't been updated in months
  739. # [20:35] <Hixie> (pretty sure that's not a problem on my end because i delete the entire directory when regenerating it)
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  744. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> Hixie, there's a bug about that
  745. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> (At least for the W3C copy
  746. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> )
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  750. # [20:48] <zewt> starting to see somewhat more pages catching and breaking major browser hotkeys
  751. # [20:48] <zewt> twitter and now AWS's console
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  761. # [21:14] <zewt> http://zewt.org/~glenn/encoding%20utf-8.html strange; IE9 shows zh-CN in the lang=jp case (firefox shows all three fine, and IE9 does get zh-TW and zh-CN right)
  762. # [21:19] <zewt> but it gets it right with shift-jis (or else all of Japan would be yelling at them)
  763. # [21:19] <zewt> it feels like some browser vendors are actively trying to prevent asia (especially Japan) from using UTF-8
  764. # [21:23] <zewt> aha, it wants lang=ja (other browsers accept lang=jp, so that's what I ended up typing)
  765. # [21:24] <smaug____> annevk: ping
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  784. # [21:53] <Hixie> heycam|away: does SVG have path objects?
  785. # [21:54] * rektide_ is now known as rektide
  786. # [21:54] <Hixie> it's ridiculous how many people are asking for ellipses suddenly
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  792. # [22:02] <Philip`> Maybe they thought that asking for ellipses is the most effective way to get a non-terrible API for drawing circles
  793. # [22:03] * Philip` thinks APIs that require you to remember to use the argument 2*Math.PI don't count as non-terrible
  794. # [22:06] <TobiX> Philip`: As long as you don't have to use LOGO to draw a circle ;)
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  808. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> tantek: You still need me for anything? (Returning the ping from a while ago without reading anything from near it.)
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  810. # [22:32] <zewt> did the unsubscribed-poster setting change on the list? curious how that spam got through
  811. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> It happens occasionally.
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  813. # [22:36] <gavinc> are there any standalone implementations of the UTF-8, with error handling decoding?
  814. # [22:39] <tantek> TabAtkins - I think it may have been about the my documentation of the proposal to allow space instead of t in date-and-time microsyntaxes
  815. # [22:39] <tantek> it appears to be resolved now in WHATWG
  816. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> kk
  817. # [22:40] <tantek> however you're still encouraged to review and edit/improve the research documentation: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#permit_space_instead_of_T_in_datetimes
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  819. # [22:43] * tantek is proceeding with attempting to grow consensus on time enhancements across WHATWG and HTMLWG specs.
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  826. # [22:52] <jgraham> gavinc: What do you mean by "implementation" in this case? A C library that will take UTF8 and give you back (some string format)?
  827. # [22:53] <jgraham> (not that I know the answer in any case, but...)
  828. # [22:53] <zewt> i assume he means the particular rules defined by http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#utf-8
  829. # [22:53] <gavinc> zewt: Yes
  830. # [22:53] <gavinc> jgraham: or even just an example that isn't stuck way way down inside a browser
  831. # [22:54] <zewt> i'd imagine the utf8-to-codepoints code is probably not very complex ... maybe check webkit?
  832. # [22:54] <zewt> (webkit tends to have code which is easier to read in isolation than gecko, in my brief experiences with both)
  833. # [22:55] <gavinc> zewt: well, most languages have UTF-8 parsers for reading byte streams. I guess I was wondering if anyone had already implemented utf-8 with error recovery as one of those
  834. # [22:55] <zewt> well, they might implement error recovery, but in different ways
  835. # [22:55] <zewt> i assume you want those particular rules
  836. # [22:56] <gavinc> zewt: Right, so specifically THOSE rules
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  838. # [22:56] <gavinc> Java, Python and Ruby don't do any error recovery, they just explode on invalid utf-8
  839. # [22:57] <gkellogg> gavinc: I can't say that for sure about Ruby, as the case I'm looking at doesn't actually look like UTF-8
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  843. # [23:01] * Philip` uses the code at http://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/source/lib/utf8.cpp , which can either abort and report errors or else replace invalid stuff (for some value of 'stuff') with U+FFFD
  844. # [23:01] <zewt> here's (some version of) webkit's utf-8 decoding: http://gitorious.org/webkit/sedkit/blobs/94b6ef65ee422c62fb91ca9be76ee2fa5310d718/Source/WebCore/platform/text/TextCodecUTF8.cpp
  845. # [23:02] <zewt> not as simple as an "example code" standalone might be, but not complex
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  847. # [23:03] <zewt> (i don't know if webkit actually implements utf-8 error handling exactly per spec, but I'd hope so)
  848. # [23:03] <zewt> also I don't know what version that is (I just googled for the source file of whatever WebKit source version is lying around in my ~)
  849. # [23:04] <gavinc> zewt: yeah, specifically line 169 http://gitorious.org/webkit/sedkit/blobs/94b6ef65ee422c62fb91ca9be76ee2fa5310d718/Source/WebCore/platform/text/TextCodecUTF8.cpp#line169
  850. # [23:04] <zewt> decodeNonASCIISequence looks like the fast path with no error handling, check TextCodecUTF8::decode below it
  851. # [23:05] <gavinc> No, it's still doing the error handling as specified
  852. # [23:06] <zewt> it's the asserts that make it look dubious
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  854. # [23:07] <zewt> havn't squinted very hard at it
  855. # [23:08] <zewt> there's still enough platform stuff in there that it may be more work to extract it to use it independently than to just rewrite it
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  857. # [23:08] <Velmont> gavinc: chardet python library is using charset sniffing code/algorithm from browsers at least.
  858. # [23:10] <gkellogg> ww: so, it seems that the problem is specific to Ruby 1.9. Running on a different version, I seem to be able to parse (without actually generating triples) in about 22 secs. I'll try making triples next
  859. # [23:10] <gavinc> gkellogg: mischan ;)
  860. # [23:11] <gkellogg> :)
  861. # [23:11] <gavinc> of course chardet 410s... sigh, yeah
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  863. # [23:13] <gavinc> Velmont: chardet just does the detection, not the bytes-> chars :(
  864. # [23:14] * Quits: mishunov (~spliter@164.247.189.109.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: mishunov)
  865. # [23:15] <zewt> ->codepoints :)
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  867. # [23:15] <Wilto> annevk: Ping.
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  873. # [23:23] <gavinc> zewt: yes those :P
  874. # [23:29] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish_
  875. # [23:30] <jgraham> Hmm, I'm pretty sure the python codecs module has some possibility for error recovery, but I doubt it matches this spec
  876. # [23:30] <gavinc> reading now, it's C with goto, may take a few passes at reading
  877. # [23:31] <jgraham> errors='replace': replace malformed data with a suitable replacement marker, such as '?' or '\ufffd'
  878. # [23:31] <gavinc> yeah, I think gets darn close of what HTML5 says
  879. # [23:31] <zewt> jgraham: would be interesting if they could be convinced to converge on html's rules
  880. # [23:32] <gavinc> Was also looking if there were any test cases yet for that algorithm
  881. # [23:32] <jgraham> zewt: I don't know how or if it is different
  882. # [23:32] <zewt> i don't either
  883. # [23:33] <gavinc> one example, it doesn't replace surrogates
  884. # [23:33] <zewt> or if they're prevented from changing it for compat, add an errors='html' mode
  885. # [23:34] <gavinc> exactly :D
  886. # [23:35] <gavinc> was hoping that it could be done by registering a new codex, but it looks like that would be staggeringly slower
  887. # [23:37] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  888. # [23:38] * Joins: schnoomac (~schnoomac@melbourne.99cluster.com)
  889. # [23:38] <jgraham> gavinc: Where is the actual decoder in python?
  890. # [23:39] <jgraham> I mean actual python decoder
  891. # [23:39] <jgraham> in c
  892. # [23:39] <jgraham> Well I mean something. I'm not sure either way round was clear
  893. # [23:41] * Joins: rillian_ (~rillian@184.71.166.126)
  894. # [23:41] <zewt> PyUnicode_DecodeUTF8Stateful, I think
  895. # [23:41] <zewt> at least in 3.1.3
  896. # [23:42] <gavinc> PyUnicode_DecodeUTF8Stateful
  897. # [23:42] <gavinc> yeah
  898. # [23:42] <zewt> i win
  899. # [23:42] <gavinc> I was reading it :P
  900. # [23:45] * Quits: Kotrotsos (~textual@ip51cda7bf.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
  901. # [23:47] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  902. # [23:47] <gavinc> http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/17ceebc61b65/Objects/unicodeobject.c#l2555
  903. # [23:48] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  904. # [23:53] * Quits: FrankParent (~fparent@64.34.146.254)
  905. # [23:53] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  906. # Session Close: Thu Dec 08 00:00:00 2011

The end :)