/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-12-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 19 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:02] <annevk> fwiw, at some point someone said governments need stable standards or some such
  6. # [00:02] <annevk> they do, but they also adapt
  7. # [00:03] <annevk> e.g. Webrichtlijnen 1.0 referenced HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.0, etc. The second edition stayed away from making such specific requirements
  8. # [00:04] <annevk> and just phrased the requirements in a different way, but thereby allowing <canvas> etc.
  9. # [00:04] <zewt> that adobe guy seems to be trying to say "everything everyone is doing is wrong"
  10. # [00:04] <annevk> (I'm not sure if it was actually ever a problem in practice, as many sites that did not conform to the letter of Webrichtlijnen 1.0 were nevertheless considered compliant...)
  11. # [00:05] <annevk> (At least a sample I looked through at some point.)
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  73. # [03:17] <zewt> gar i hate when i forget to switch to the rich editor before sending mails; mails look ridiculously long when formatted to 80 columns instead of flowed properly
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  158. # [08:49] <annevk> given consistent window.onerror implementations it seems you can actually introduce parse-error inducing syntax errors in ecmascript
  159. # [08:49] <annevk> just requires two <script> elements for fallback, which does not seem too bad
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  161. # [08:51] <annevk> I wonder how abarth got convinced that CSP is a good idea now
  162. # [08:51] <annevk> still looks waaaaaayyyy complex
  163. # [08:51] <annevk> and more so over time
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  180. # [09:33] <hsivonen> Does http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms890014.aspx predate Apple's <meta name=viewport>?
  181. # [09:35] * nunnun is now known as nunnun_away
  182. # [09:39] <hsivonen> people suck at registering meta keywords
  183. # [09:40] <annevk> and sending feedback to you know, standards bodies
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  186. # [09:43] <hsivonen> in fairness, some of these keywords might lack documentation but still be real
  187. # [09:44] * hsivonen is just following the Process like any IANA Designated Expert would
  188. # [09:44] <annevk> for whether or not they're valid?
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  190. # [09:48] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah
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  192. # [09:50] <annevk> I don't think that has really been the problem with IANA, it's just that the registries lacked everything else that was out there
  193. # [09:50] <annevk> but I do think having IANA is overkill
  194. # [09:50] <annevk> maybe they do some other things, but for maintaining some lists for which you could simply put a piece of software somewhere it seems rather elaborate
  195. # [09:52] <hsivonen> speaking of overkills: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yevstifeyev-disclosure-relation-00
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  197. # [09:53] <annevk> hahaha
  198. # [09:54] <annevk> one paragraph and two list items of normative text
  199. # [09:54] <wilhelm> Beautiful.
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  201. # [09:55] <annevk> I'm glad I never got sucked into doing things the IETF way, because it's quite horrible
  202. # [10:00] * smaug____ notices that WoW is being advertised heavily, even more than Chrome.
  203. # [10:00] <hsivonen> the person who creates a single-page Google Site for each of his/her meta keyword suggestions knows how to play the game Hixie set up
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  205. # [10:04] <annevk> maybe there should be some level before fully registered, where fully registered means it's clearly an important and relatively widely used value
  206. # [10:04] <annevk> I guess if we take the approach where we put registered values into HTML after some time, that might work
  207. # [10:05] <annevk> oh lol, I feel sorry for Marcos
  208. # [10:05] <annevk> re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/1613.html
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  211. # [10:16] <hsivonen> annevk: someone should remind the "OMG, unversioned normative reference" folks that all specs rely on Unicode and implementations support the latest Unicode that they happen to support instead of artificially hiding the characters that have been defined after whatever spec uses Unicode was finalized
  212. # [10:19] <Ms2ger> Do you think they'll listen?
  213. # [10:19] <annevk> telling someone who's been having this idea since before '98 that he's actually wrong will not lead to much I think
  214. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: no. Hence, "someone"--not "I"
  215. # [10:20] <annevk> in 2007 we had http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/04/html-red-pill
  216. # [10:20] <annevk> now we have the Standards Red Pill
  217. # [10:21] <annevk> which comes down to pretty much the same re-reading that post :)
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  239. # [11:12] <remysharp> hi there, EventSource - I'm using onerror to detect when the connection is dropped
  240. # [11:12] <remysharp> but that's not perfect - as it doesn't always fire when the connection is closed
  241. # [11:12] <remysharp> (I closed my laptop, reopened it hours later and the EventSource had readyState=2 but hadn't fired error - correctly I think)
  242. # [11:13] <remysharp> is there any reason why there's no close event - or is there a better way of detecting?
  243. # [11:15] <smaug____> remysharp: file a bug
  244. # [11:15] <smaug____> it is an implementation bug
  245. # [11:15] <remysharp> so you're saying it should fire then?
  246. # [11:16] <remysharp> (as in it's a browser bug?)
  247. # [11:16] <smaug____> ye
  248. # [11:16] <smaug____> yes, error event should fire
  249. # [11:16] <remysharp> and the error is simply to say "the connection has gone", right?
  250. # [11:16] <remysharp> I guess "close" would be, it's closed, and we're not reopening
  251. # [11:17] <smaug____> error even is used also in case there is reconnection happening
  252. # [11:17] <smaug____> but state is then different
  253. # [11:18] <smaug____> s/even/event/
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  256. # [11:20] <remysharp> perfect, then I'm using error correct. Now the hard part: replicating the bug ;-)
  257. # [11:20] <remysharp> cheers for the feedback smaug____
  258. # [11:21] <smaug____> remysharp: I'm assuming your code doesn't explicitly call close()
  259. # [11:21] <remysharp> smaug____ correct
  260. # [11:22] <remysharp> and yeah, if it called .close() - I *wouldn't* expect the error event
  261. # [11:22] <remysharp> and wouldn't need an event as I triggered it myself
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  272. # [12:03] <annevk> seems there's still some discussion going on regarding adaptive images
  273. # [12:03] <annevk> I replied regarding the content negotiation suggestion
  274. # [12:03] <annevk> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2011/notes-on-adaptive-images-yet-again/
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  291. # [12:58] <bga> lol setTimeout(function () { alert(123); }, Math.pow(2, 32))
  292. # [12:58] <bga> <=> setTimeout(_, 0)
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  300. # [13:26] <annevk> gsnedders: how does the versioning actually work in ECMAScript though? won't you get an error in older browsers either way?
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  302. # [13:27] * annevk doesn't get it
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  305. # [13:27] <gsnedders> annevk: Either way you get an error in older browsers. Having modes allows us to finally change some of the ugliness that blocks a lot of JS performance optimizations
  306. # [13:28] <beverloo> "use strict" introduces behavioral changes, "use version 6" syntactical changes. There will by syntax errors
  307. # [13:28] <beverloo> But I imagine that "version 6" will also include behavioral changes
  308. # [13:28] <beverloo> s/by/be/
  309. # [13:29] <annevk> oh, so the syntax is effectively changed
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  312. # [13:29] <annevk> sounds pretty bad
  313. # [13:29] <annevk> making things simpler while still allowing the old syntax seems better
  314. # [13:30] <annevk> e.g. allowing if count > 4 { ... }
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  317. # [13:34] <gsnedders> annevk: The global scope is no longer in the scope change is the biggest breaking change
  318. # [13:35] <gsnedders> *chain
  319. # [13:37] <annevk> o_O
  320. # [13:37] <annevk> "use version 6" and learn to program again?
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  322. # [13:38] <annevk> use <!doctype html> and delimit your tags with [ and ] now; it's better, promise
  323. # [13:38] <annevk> (not quite the same, true true, but this does not really sound like a good idea)
  324. # [13:39] <gsnedders> annevk: Also there are in general problems with adding new keywords
  325. # [13:39] <gsnedders> annevk: As that will easily break things
  326. # [13:41] <annevk> well yes, we have the same problem with adding new members to nodes
  327. # [13:41] <gsnedders> annevk: Not really
  328. # [13:41] <annevk> not really sure that justifies versioning though
  329. # [13:41] <gsnedders> annevk: This causes syntax errors in existing scripts, what that does depends on behaviour of the new member
  330. # [13:42] <annevk> it typically causes existing scripts to break
  331. # [13:42] <annevk> e.g. when we added .min and .max that happened
  332. # [13:43] <gsnedders> I mean, extensions to ES that are where there are currently syntax errors and no vendor implements anything in the same extension space are pretty damned safe.
  333. # Session Close: Mon Dec 19 13:49:21 2011
  334. #
  335. # Session Start: Mon Dec 19 13:49:21 2011
  336. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  337. # [13:49] * Disconnected
  338. # [13:50] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  339. # [13:50] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  340. # [13:50] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  341. # [13:50] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  441. # [14:18] <annevk> so Mac OS X remembers state of programs so you can sort of reboot and continue (for when they offer a Safari update or something), but it completely breaks history in Terminal
  442. # [14:18] <annevk> which sucks
  443. # [14:19] <annevk> anyone from Apple here who can tell me if that is reported and if not, how I go about that?
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  445. # [14:19] <annevk> (this is why I ignore software updates from Apple for weeks on end, I don't like rebooting)
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  448. # [14:25] <annevk> zcorpan: do you have an algorithm for decoding UTF-8 encoded text combined with the HTML-defined error handling?
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  450. # [14:40] <hsivonen> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-57342776-264/the-web-in-2012-five-predictions-starting-with-ie10/ wow. an article about browsers that has 5 browser icons and all of them are up to date!
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  452. # [14:41] <annevk> Stephen Shankland is the only reporter I know that is follows the browser and standards sphere somewhat actively and closely
  453. # [14:42] * _richardJ is now known as RichardJ
  454. # [14:43] <annevk> though I don't pay much attention to journalism related to browsers/standards
  455. # [14:44] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm not surprised that if one reporter gets the icons right, it's stshank
  456. # [14:44] <hsivonen> but getting all the icons right is still rare in journalism
  457. # [14:51] <zcorpan> annevk: nope
  458. # [14:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think the opera logo is still the wrong one. there's one logo for the company name and one for the browser product
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  462. # [14:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: whoa. you are right. You guys are making it hard to do the right thing.
  463. # [14:59] <hasather> zcorpan: correct, there is the logo, and the icon: http://www.opera.com/press/resources/
  464. # [14:59] * hsivonen hangs head in shame; was just looking for non-toilet seat
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  466. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> That would be a nice slogan
  467. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> "Opera - No longer a toilet seat"
  468. # [15:03] <hsivonen> the right set is http://paulirish.com/lovesyou/new-browser-logos/all-browser_logos/browser_logos-256.png
  469. # [15:04] * hsivonen wonders if the Safari icon has stayed constant or had subtle refreshes
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  477. # [15:22] <hsivonen> gsnedders: if ES6 takes the global object out of the scope chain, what about the document object? what about Element?
  478. # [15:22] <hsivonen> for inline event handlers that is
  479. # [15:25] <bga> pythonic js
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  490. # [15:41] <annevk> is there some kind of preference for specifying strings in standards?
  491. # [15:42] <annevk> I sometimes find myself using "..." and sometimes ...
  492. # [15:42] <annevk> e.g. the name of an encoding is a string too, but I'd like to just refer to it without code
  493. # [15:42] <annevk> whereas for a label it might make sense to use <code>?
  494. # [15:42] <annevk> or maybe not
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  504. # [15:56] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#encodings
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  507. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> "The encoding"
  508. # [15:57] * Ms2ger likes
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  512. # [16:02] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I believe the window object will be accessable from the global object, just not the global object
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  525. # [16:38] <hsivonen> annevk: I hope you will put UTF-16 under a heading "legacy multi-octet encodings"
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  533. # [17:17] <erlehmann> this is 404? http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-December/029459.htm
  534. # [17:17] <erlehmann> no, it is 200 ok
  535. # [17:17] <erlehmann> it may be lying?
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  539. # [17:26] <miketaylr> ah, erlehmann add an l to the end :)
  540. # [17:26] <miketaylr> that confused me a little bit ago too
  541. # [17:26] <erlehmann> this is 404? http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-December/029459.html
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  543. # [17:26] <miketaylr> wfm
  544. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> Ah, isn't the web fun
  545. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> Removing navigator.taintEnabled(): at least 3 broken sites
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  553. # [17:49] <smaug____> Ms2ger: did anyone else but Gecko have taintEnabled()
  554. # [17:49] <Ms2ger> No idea
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  567. # [18:23] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  568. # [18:24] <jwalden> good afternoon, dglazkov
  569. # [18:24] <jwalden> ;-)
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  571. # [18:25] <dglazkov> timezones are irrelevant. They are just clever marketing ploys invented by clock companies.
  572. # [18:26] <jwalden> gotta watch out for those companies...
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  577. # [18:40] <annevk> hsivonen: very much the plan
  578. # [18:40] <annevk> hsivonen: I think I will work on that now, to at least make it clear what all the allowed labels are, so people can start complaining about those
  579. # [18:40] <annevk> and then work out the various difficult encodings, one by one
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  584. # [18:58] <annevk> man these people in the document.characterSet bug don't make much sense
  585. # [18:59] <annevk> euh, document.charset bug
  586. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> They don't
  587. # [19:09] <annevk> http://parislemon.com/post/14330528072/over-the-next-few-weeks-well-figure-it-out sounds like the disabling H264 in Chrome story
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  591. # [19:20] <annevk> oooh
  592. # [19:20] <annevk> that Jean-Claude
  593. # [19:20] <annevk> from my very early standards stint in the CDF WG
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  596. # [19:34] <annevk> pretty cool these links from mattur
  597. # [19:35] <annevk> how standards were developed in '94 http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/events/www94/trip-report.html
  598. # [19:35] <annevk> with workshops given by the editor
  599. # [19:37] <Ms2ger> <hr>Dinner On the Boat<hr>
  600. # [19:37] <smaug____> CDF...
  601. # [19:38] <smaug____> I never quite understood CDF
  602. # [19:38] <smaug____> although Lasse was my colleague
  603. # [19:39] <annevk> if you view CDF as a group that made sure cross-language barriers were better defined in CSS/SVG/HTML, they were somewhat successful
  604. # [19:39] <annevk> but they did much more, which was rather questionable (and people did not like me for saying so)
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  614. # [20:12] <annevk> how do you tell whether a UTF-16 label is supported and there's no heuristics going on?
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  616. # [20:13] <Yuhong> annevk: BTW, here is a good test for multi-octet encodings: http://ha.ckers.org/weird/variable-width-encoding.cgi
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  618. # [20:14] <annevk> It seems to just show you need to have certain error handling otherwise you run into issues
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  621. # [20:15] <annevk> presumably that with a two-level octet you should not replace the first octet with U+FFFD and then match the second one again...
  622. # [20:16] <Yuhong> While most browsers fixed their decoding long time ago, IE only fixed it in August: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/bulletin/MS11-057
  623. # [20:17] <annevk> this is why we need this standard
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  629. # [20:31] <annevk> does anyone know if big5-hkscs is a superset of big5?
  630. # [20:31] <annevk> looks like at least some people want them to map to the same thing: http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=466c210af3fb6d08
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  634. # [20:36] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HKSCS mess
  635. # [20:37] <Ms2ger> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web mess
  636. # [20:37] <annevk> new meme \o/
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  640. # [20:41] <annevk> Ms2ger: you guys make some sweet beer :)
  641. # [20:41] * Ms2ger isn't into beer
  642. # [20:41] <annevk> (or the guys running your proxy)
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  647. # [20:44] <annevk> the Web Encodings wiki page claims Microsoft simply makes big5-hkscs a label for big5, but Mozilla and Opera have it as a distinct encoding
  648. # [20:44] <annevk> and then you have those users complaining...
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  651. # [20:45] <Ms2ger> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/tools/gen-big5hkscs-2001-mozilla.pl
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  653. # [20:47] <annevk> euh
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  656. # [20:51] <annevk> so http://coq.no/character-tables/mime/locale-specific/en suggests it is indeed a superset
  657. # [20:51] <annevk> combined with the support thread above it seems that might be somewhat of an issue for Gecko / Chrome / Opera adoption in that area...
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  666. # [21:00] <annevk> so it seems there are some differences
  667. # [21:01] <annevk> but IE does not seem to care and win
  668. # [21:01] <annevk> quote I can prolly share: "For instance, =C6BF..=C6C2 get converted to U+2F02..U+2F07 (⼂⼃⼅⼇) in the -2003 table, and to U+4E36..U+4EA0 (丶丿亅亠) in the -HKSCS table (look-alike mappings, apparently). The differences seem to range up to =C6D9 (with =C6D8 being mapped to U+00A8 (¨) in both tables) (＾ vs ˆ for =C6D9)."
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  675. # [21:20] <annevk> I thought the single-octet stuff was sad
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  688. # [21:39] <annevk> Most Firefox' utf-16 labels are for utf-16be, but HTML states "When a user agent is to use the self-describing UTF-16 encoding but no BOM has been found, user agents must default to little-endian UTF-16."
  689. # [21:40] * Quits: gwicke__ (~gabriel@212.255.26.171) (Quit: Bye!)
  690. # [21:40] <annevk> Either Firefox has not been updated to take HTML into account, or Web Encodings is out of date with what Firefox does... (Probably both.)
  691. # [21:40] <gsnedders> Well, Firefox is right per normal Unicode behaviour.
  692. # [21:41] <annevk> Per normal behavior utf-16 has no other labels than utf-16
  693. # [21:42] <Ms2ger> There is no normal behaviour on the web
  694. # [21:42] <annevk> You don't trust IANA? Come on!
  695. # [21:42] <gsnedders> Normal behaviour is there are three labels: UTF-16, UTF-16LE, and UTF-16BE. The latter two, if the first codepoint is U+FFEF, it represents a ZWNBSP and is not a BOM.
  696. # [21:42] <annevk> those are considered separate encodings
  697. # [21:42] <annevk> three separate encodings that is
  698. # [21:42] <gsnedders> Given UTF-16, if it starts with a BOM, then it is whatever endian that is. Otherwise, it is big endian.
  699. # [21:43] <gsnedders> That's what the Unicode spec says, at lesat.
  700. # [21:43] <annevk> yeah, HTML points out it violates that
  701. # [21:43] <annevk> apparently all of Windows prefers LE
  702. # [21:43] <annevk> hello Microsoft \o/
  703. # [21:43] <gsnedders> annevk: I'll bet that's because x86 is LE
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  705. # [21:44] <annevk> the new encoding standard will attempt to correct the nonsense
  706. # [21:45] <gsnedders> annevk: Any idea how far UTF-16 being LE by default spreads?
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  708. # [21:46] <annevk> I have not done any testing yet on UTF-16
  709. # [21:46] <annevk> just looked at a bunch of information
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  713. # [21:49] <smaug____> "jquery 1.6 uses navigator.taintEnabled for browser detection" o_O
  714. # [21:49] <smaug____> I knew jQuery is strange...
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  716. # [21:55] <annevk> I sort of expected that since encodings are in a way somewhat trivial there would not be this clusterfuck
  717. # [22:01] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  718. # [22:01] <Ms2ger> annevk, dunno if you saw the xmlVersion bug? That one is fun too :)
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  730. # [22:26] <annevk> Ms2ger: did :)
  731. # [22:26] <annevk> I checked in some legacy multi-octet stuff, but there's not much there now
  732. # [22:27] <annevk> as evidenced by the log I mostly studied the various encodings a bit and then wrote up some labels based on IE/Gecko/HTML
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  734. # [22:27] <annevk> I think tomorrow I'll define label -> encoding (including the trimming of leading and trailing whitespace and case-insensitive stuff)
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  737. # [22:28] <annevk> and maybe ping whatwg and iana charsets lists
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  746. # [22:48] <lmarcetic> mic check.
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  748. # [22:57] <lmarcetic> Question about DOM events: How hard would it be to construct an event logger? Must one create and add handlers for each and every event? How complex would a js library have to be to be able to record and replay events?
  749. # [22:57] <annevk> yes, there's no *
  750. # [22:58] <annevk> and euh, somewhat complex I reckon
  751. # [22:58] <lmarcetic> how about a few basic ones, like point, click and scroll? would that be easy enough?
  752. # [22:59] <lmarcetic> pointing/dragging would probably be complex (alternatively, jittery)
  753. # [22:59] <annevk> I'd just try it out :)
  754. # [23:00] <annevk> prolly with capture event listeners on window or some such so you are before everyone else and then create some synthetic events
  755. # [23:01] <annevk> the problem you'll run into is that a synthetic event does not always have the same privileges (e.g. cannot open a new window); not sure if that's a big problem
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  758. # [23:03] <lmarcetic> annevk, oh it's you Anne! Didn't even notice :-) I was the one who bugged you about this via e-mail. Anyway, not being able to open windows is understandable. Is there anything else?
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  762. # [23:05] <annevk> oh, http://www.iana.org/assignments/charset-reg/CP50220 mentions http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_Encodings
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  764. # [23:06] <annevk> lmarcetic: I suspect stuff like :hover will not work
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  766. # [23:07] <annevk> lmarcetic: I have not really played with hit testing and such much
  767. # [23:08] <annevk> and I should really do something else before I start dreaming about encodings again
  768. # [23:09] <lmarcetic> annevk, hover is important, that's too bad.
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  770. # [23:13] <lmarcetic> annevk, thanks. afk.
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  776. # [23:24] <Danny_Joris> hi all - I'm trying to figure out if this is valid html? http://jsfiddle.net/Danny_Joris/sc96c/ I used thead twice in html. If there's an alternative available I'd love to learn: http://jsfiddle.net/Danny_Joris/sc96c/
  777. # [23:24] <Danny_Joris> hmm pasted that twice
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  782. # [23:26] <Danny_Joris> I'm working on a site which I have to theme this page for: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12905785/DGI/ceacs%20subpage-author.png
  783. # [23:26] <Danny_Joris> in the rest of the site where you see 'authors' this is themed with the caption
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  785. # [23:28] <Danny_Joris> I probably gave a few of you a heart attack by showing that snippet.
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  790. # [23:44] <smaug____> Alac in JS
  791. # [23:44] <smaug____> http://codecs.ofmlabs.org/
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  796. # Session Close: Tue Dec 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)