/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 05 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:08] <dglazkov> what's a good spec that defines terms like "directional navigation", "sequential navigation", "document navigation order", etc.?
  4. # [00:09] <dglazkov> www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html#editing has some bits, but definitely not complete
  5. # [00:10] <dglazkov> www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#keyboard has some other bits, but also not fully fleshed out
  6. # [00:10] <annevk> what kind of navigation are we talking about?
  7. # [00:11] <dglazkov> keyboard control/focus
  8. # [00:11] <dglazkov> tabbing and spatial nav
  9. # [00:11] <annevk> that's not really well defined anywhere
  10. # [00:12] <dglazkov> ok, no problem. I'll stitch something together for shadow DOM.
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  20. # [00:23] <annevk> note for tomorrow's annevk: XML5
  21. # [00:23] <dglazkov> that sounds delicious
  22. # [00:23] <gsnedders> Is tomorrow's annevk a different annevk from today's?
  23. # [00:23] <gsnedders> Is there an army of annevk clones or something?
  24. # [00:24] <gsnedders> Because that sounds kinda scary, but I guess it could improve productivity when it comes to writing specs.
  25. # [00:25] <dglazkov> perhaps it's more of a larvae->pupa->butterfly situation
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  28. # [00:35] <jamesr_> dglazkov: tabindex defined here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html#focus
  29. # [00:36] <jamesr_> not in a ton of detail
  30. # [00:36] <dglazkov> yep
  31. # [00:36] <dglazkov> I was just looking for a grand unified theory of keyboard navigation
  32. # [00:37] <gsnedders> For anyone who fails to understand me: http://gothsuptrees.tumblr.com/
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  39. # [00:51] <crankharder> why would window.webkitIndexedDB be undefined in safari 5.1.2 ?
  40. # [00:53] <hober> crankharder: I believe you'll find that each webkit browser {en,dis}ables different features
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  42. # [00:55] <crankharder> hober: indesedDB is enabled - a demo site is working
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  66. # [01:36] <crankharder> I'm getting effectively the same error in chrome and ffx from this indexedb example
  67. # [01:36] <crankharder> http://html5-demos.appspot.com/static/html5storage/index.html#slide31
  68. # [01:36] <crankharder> http://pastie.org/pastes/3128254
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  110. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> fyi, I just realized today that I had at some point borked the link-fixup behavior for the dev.w3.org version of the spec
  111. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> such that broken fragment refs didn't get redirected the way they are supposed to
  112. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> but anyway, fwiw, I just fixed it so that they should work again as expected
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  153. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/att-1696/speechapi.html
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  170. # [09:16] <annevk> http://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/01/jon-mitchell-google-hates-the-internet/ "A far distant 99th priority is the person who actually created the thing in the first place." Isn't that the same with traditional media?
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  178. # [09:38] <woef> annevk: if you look at Google's plans for search results, they seem to be going in the same direction
  179. # [09:39] <woef> Google will try to answer any direct question itself, downplaying the source link where it got its information
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  181. # [09:39] <woef> https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=who+is+matt+damon+married+to
  182. # [09:40] <woef> You have to click "show sources" to actually see where Google got it from.
  183. # [09:43] <patbam> weirdly, the results if you replace "angelina jolie" for "matt damon" are different
  184. # [09:43] <woef> Even worse I'd say, there are 7 sites they're not even mentioning.
  185. # [09:46] <patbam> indeed
  186. # [09:47] <woef> A kick in the balls for the semantic web if you ask me.
  187. # [09:47] <woef> You go through the trouble of marking everything up with microdata, Google steals your data and doesn't even bother to credit you properly.
  188. # [09:48] <hsivonen> woef: does that feature even use any semweb markup?
  189. # [09:49] <hsivonen> woef: and since when was semantic web about attributing anything?
  190. # [09:49] <hsivonen> woef: AFAICT, the SemWeb folks were never that concerned about provenance
  191. # [09:49] <hsivonen> woef: you stick all facts and lies you find into a triple store, shake and out come conclusions
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  193. # [09:52] <woef> hsivonen: Google's microdata effort are certainly behind it.
  194. # [09:52] <woef> The best way to "know" an answer.
  195. # [09:53] <hsivonen> woef: nope. click show sources
  196. # [09:53] <hsivonen> woef: and, among others, you get http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/15/matt-damons-wife-luciana-steps-out-first-time-since-giving-birth_n_796981.html
  197. # [09:54] <hsivonen> woef: looks like they are extracting stuff from English phrases without any microdata
  198. # [09:54] <woef> I never said they did.
  199. # [09:54] <woef> *not do that too
  200. # [09:55] <woef> But if you have the chance between marked up content using microdata and English phrases ... what are they going to prefer?
  201. # [09:55] <woef> The data that machines can read 100% accurately, or the stuff where they still need to do some guessing?
  202. # [09:55] <hsivonen> is "Google's microdata effort" involved in any of the sources claimed for figuring out who Matt Damon's wife is?
  203. # [09:56] <woef> You claim they won't use it?
  204. # [09:56] <woef> They'd be dumb not to.
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  206. # [09:57] <hsivonen> I wouldn't expect them to use microdata for this particular thing, no
  207. # [09:57] <woef> Is there any reason not to?
  208. # [09:57] <tantek> hsivonen, regarding provenance, there are differences among semweb folks in its importance
  209. # [09:58] <woef> Beyond the fact that hardly any big sites these days are implemting it for relations between people?
  210. # [09:58] <hsivonen> woef: there are lots of people providing user-visible simple English phases about celebrity marriages
  211. # [09:58] <woef> schema.org lists: spouse Person The person's spouse.
  212. # [09:58] <tantek> woef, expressing relations between people is solved by XFN, indexed by Google, and available to anyone thru the Google Social Graph API
  213. # [09:58] <hsivonen> woef: there are few sources motivated to provide correct explicit metadata declarations of celebrity marriages
  214. # [09:59] <tantek> oh, and has nothing to do with microdata
  215. # [09:59] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-699de355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  216. # [09:59] <woef> Microdata (/schema.org) has everything ready to start using microdata for things like this
  217. # [10:00] <hsivonen> woef: so changes are that phrases grepped from text would give better confidence for this kind of thing that explicit metadata
  218. # [10:00] <tantek> woef "ready to start using" == handwaving. whatever.
  219. # [10:01] <woef> lol
  220. # [10:01] <hsivonen> tantek: does the capital Semantic Web stack have a provenance layer these days?
  221. # [10:01] <woef> Okay, so "they're not using it now so there is no problem at all" then.
  222. # [10:01] <tantek> hsivonen - depends on whose version of SemWeb "Trust" you use
  223. # [10:01] <hsivonen> I haven't been looking that carefully, but it seems to me that capital-S stack developed all kinds of machinery before provenance
  224. # [10:02] <tantek> sure, it's a multilayer cake
  225. # [10:02] <hsivonen> and provenance was in the "we'll figure it out later bucket"
  226. # [10:02] <tantek> nah, that's a bit of a mischaracterization
  227. # [10:02] <tantek> for example, a simple answer is to supply provenance as a triple annotation on any existing triple
  228. # [10:03] <tantek> it can complicate queries sure, but it's not an unsolvable problem
  229. # [10:03] <hsivonen> though last time I heard TimBL answer a question of SemWeb provenace was in 2004, so things might have progressed since then
  230. # [10:03] * Quits: Druide_ (~Druid@p5B1370F1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  231. # [10:03] <hsivonen> tantek: it's solv*able* sure
  232. # [10:04] <tantek> to be clear - I'm just passing along bits I've picked up from discussions
  233. # [10:04] <tantek> it's not how I would choose to solve provenance
  234. # [10:04] <tantek> given that I don't choose to use uppercase SemWeb tech either (but it's easy enough to create simple data to interop with it)
  235. # [10:05] * Joins: Evanescence (~Evanescen@122.237.23.227)
  236. # [10:06] <hsivonen> on a completely different topic: in the popup blocker is disengaged, Chrome, IE9 and Opera open a new window/tab and load the Mozilla site into it when loading https://bug98654.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=77369
  237. # [10:06] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.91.205)
  238. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Firefox doesn't
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  240. # [10:06] <hsivonen> I don't see any mechanism in the spec that explains the Chrome/IE/Opera behavior
  241. # [10:06] <hsivonen> AFAICT, Firefox complies with the spec
  242. # [10:07] <hsivonen> and Firefox has had the Chrome/IE/Opera behavior before
  243. # [10:07] <hsivonen> What's the mechanism Chrome/IE/Opera apply here?
  244. # [10:07] <hsivonen> s/in the popup/if the popup/
  245. # [10:07] * Joins: Druide_ (~Druid@p5B13780C.dip.t-dialin.net)
  246. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: am I misreading the spec or do Chrome/IE/Opera have an unspecced mechanism at work here?
  247. # [10:09] * Quits: Evanescence (~Evanescen@122.237.23.227) (Client Quit)
  248. # [10:11] <tantek> on another completely unrelated topic: apparently kids in schools are now learning how to coordinate in-person group-trolling: http://www.takepart.com/article/2011/12/07/cyberbaiting-teens-find-high-tech-ways-humiliate-teachers
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  251. # [10:14] <hsivonen> tantek: that's sad. kids are cruel
  252. # [10:15] <Ms2ger> Well, we knew that, no?
  253. # [10:16] <hsivonen> during my freshman year at the university, I was asked to come back to my old school as a substitute art teacher for a week, but I was too afraid that I couldn't keep order in the class, so I declined
  254. # [10:16] <patbam> i find it a bit
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  256. # [10:17] <tantek> I have a feeling politics will get very different in ~10 years when that generation has reached voting / political participation age
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  258. # [10:17] <annevk> don't worry
  259. # [10:17] <annevk> the Republicans will make sure they can't vote
  260. # [10:17] <Ms2ger> tantek, kids weren't cruel when you were at school?
  261. # [10:18] <tantek> they weren't that efficiently coordinated about it
  262. # [10:21] <tantek> oh and they focused coordinated/group attacks more on weaker individuals, in lower grades etc. not teachers.
  263. # [10:23] <woef> Parents became "our friends", so authority based on seniority is somewhat gone.
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  270. # [10:46] * jgraham doesn't think history bears "I have a feeling that politics will be very different when {some subset of today's youth} has reached participation age"
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  274. # [10:50] <hsivonen> I occasionally wish WebKit and Chrome had something like MXR
  275. # [10:51] * hsivonen wonders why the site map link on the www.chromium.org site is in Cyrillic letters
  276. # [10:52] <hsivonen> is there a useful third-party online cross reference for WebKit's source that I should know about?
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  278. # [10:53] <jgraham> Is that "occasionally" that maps 1:1 to the "occasionally" that you want to look up something in their source code?
  279. # [10:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes
  280. # [10:54] <Ms2ger> http://codesearch.google.com/#&exact_package=chromium
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  282. # [10:55] <Ms2ger> (Also, bug 674657)
  283. # [10:55] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: thanks
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  285. # [10:56] * david_carlisle_ is now known as david_carlisle
  286. # [10:56] <hsivonen> hmm. no non-spec magic in their document.write beyond a recursion limit
  287. # [10:57] <hsivonen> hmm. they do have a non-spec check in thei document.open impl.
  288. # [10:59] <hsivonen> though that check doesn't seem to explain this
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  295. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: you now have perms to the W3C testframework dvcs repo, as well as to add test suites through the Web UI
  296. # [11:14] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  350. # [13:04] <annevk> whoa
  351. # [13:04] <annevk> so I have
  352. # [13:04] <annevk> <meta charset=HZ-GB-2312><span>~
  353. # [13:04] <annevk> </span><script>document.write(encodeURI(document.body.firstChild.innerHTML))</script>
  354. # [13:04] <annevk> gives � %EF%BF%BD%20 in IE9
  355. # [13:05] <annevk> there's two 0x0A after the ~
  356. # [13:05] <annevk> that's kind of insane
  357. # [13:05] <annevk> oh sweet
  358. # [13:05] <annevk> if I add a DOCTYPE
  359. # [13:05] <annevk> I get
  360. # [13:05] <annevk> � %EF%BF%BD%0A%0A
  361. # [13:06] <annevk> not sure I want to know
  362. # [13:09] <hsivonen> annevk: probably an innerHTML difference between modes
  363. # [13:10] <annevk> yeah seems likely
  364. # [13:11] <annevk> the weird thing is mostly the BOM :)
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  377. # [13:50] <annevk> kind of funny how these encodings are from 95 and nobody ever bothered to take a proper look at them
  378. # [13:50] <annevk> makes me wonder about the network stack
  379. # [13:51] <annevk> consider also that HTML was from 94 or so (earlier?) and nobody took care of it until 2006
  380. # [13:54] <annevk> so I have this to Unicode algorithm
  381. # [13:54] <annevk> when it says return failure, it's a fatal error
  382. # [13:54] <annevk> when it says "emit code point" it is run again (unless the code point is the EOF code point)
  383. # [13:54] <annevk> what should I use for running it again without emitting anything?
  384. # [13:55] <annevk> just return?
  385. # [13:55] <annevk> and explain it above?
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  387. # [13:55] <annevk> something like this is needed for the encodings that are basically based on state machines
  388. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> continue;
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  391. # [14:06] <annevk> yeah I considered that and I'm not sure why I rejected it, so I'll go with that
  392. # [14:10] <annevk> e.g. "Set the <span>hz-gb-2312 flag</span> and continue." Ms2ger?
  393. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> Sure
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  395. # [14:13] <hsivonen> annevk: then you probably need to define "continue"
  396. # [14:13] <hsivonen> annevk: Hixie uses goto step #
  397. # [14:14] <hsivonen> annevk: of course, it's nicer if the spec uses continue/break instead of goto :-)
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  399. # [14:21] <hsivonen> no answers to my window.location/document.write question yet :-(
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  406. # [14:45] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah I have defined it for the to Unicode algorithm
  407. # [14:45] <annevk> hsivonen: I haven't referenced it all over though
  408. # [14:45] <annevk> (not yet checked in, still working on the last details of hz-gb-2312 to Unicode)
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  417. # [15:05] <annevk> now committed: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#hz-gb-2312
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  447. # [16:03] <annevk> bitbucket.org offline?
  448. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> Is for me
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  460. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> INFO | runtests.py | Running tests: end.
  461. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> mochitest-plain passed
  462. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> \o/
  463. # [16:25] <jgraham> With the testharness.js tests?
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  466. # [16:26] <Ms2ger> With 5 of AryehGregor's tests
  467. # [16:27] <Ms2ger> And after multiplying your timeouts by ten :)
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  470. # [16:40] <jgraham> Heh
  471. # [16:41] <jgraham> Well once I push the changes you can do that from testharnessreport.js. Although that is sort of very problematic. Hmm
  472. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> fwiw, mochitests use an API to multiply the timeout by a factor, rather than passing an absolute value
  473. # [16:44] <jgraham> Yes, maybe that is a better idea
  474. # [16:44] <annevk> bitbucket back
  475. # [16:46] <annevk> A and B are null
  476. # [16:46] <annevk> A or B are/is??? null
  477. # [16:46] <Ms2ger> is
  478. # [16:47] <annevk> either A or B is null
  479. # [16:47] <annevk> k
  480. # [16:47] <Ms2ger> But ask someone with a different language background :)
  481. # [16:47] <jgraham> Is
  482. # [16:48] <jgraham> Because it is read as singular
  483. # [16:48] <zewt> i'd say they're both right; i'd say are
  484. # [16:49] <zewt> since singularity isn't implied (english "or' isn't "xor")
  485. # [16:49] <jgraham> It is commonly read as xor
  486. # [16:49] <zewt> no, definitely not
  487. # [16:49] <zewt> that would mean that if both A and B are null, then the condition is not satisfied
  488. # [16:49] <jgraham> Sure. "Shall we go left or right?"
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  490. # [16:49] <jgraham> I mean in common usage
  491. # [16:49] <jgraham> Not in technical contexts
  492. # [16:49] <zewt> that's a choice, not a condition
  493. # [16:49] <zcorpan> left and right are mutually exclusive though
  494. # [16:50] <Ms2ger> What did you set off now, annevk... ;)
  495. # [16:50] <zewt> if you say "are there any cats or dogs?", you don't say "no" if there are both cats and dogs :)
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  497. # [16:50] <zcorpan> zewt: that would be "are" even if there are only cats, since cats is plural
  498. # [16:50] * Parts: ksweeney (~Adium@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  499. # [16:50] <zewt> not relevant
  500. # [16:51] <zewt> the point is simply that "or" isn't "xor"
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  502. # [16:51] <david_carlisle> zakim, who is here?
  503. # [16:51] <jgraham> Well it depends on context obviously
  504. # [16:51] <david_carlisle> sorry:-)
  505. # [16:51] <annevk> Ms2ger: dunno I moved on long ago
  506. # [16:51] <zewt> and more fundamentally, "if A or B are null" doesn't sound wrong to me as a native speaker (which is always the final measurement)
  507. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> david_carlisle, I am! :)
  508. # [16:52] <jgraham> zewt: I find it acceptable I guess, but less nice than "is"
  509. # [16:52] <jgraham> Which is also the final measurement :p
  510. # [16:53] <zcorpan> just go with "if A is null, or if B is null"
  511. # [16:53] <zewt> fffff
  512. # [16:54] <zewt> don't do that :P
  513. # [16:54] <Ms2ger> if not A or not B?
  514. # [16:55] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: doesn't it need to be and if you negate them?
  515. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> !a <==> a == nsnull
  516. # [16:56] <zcorpan> touche
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  520. # [16:59] <jgraham> if null ∈ {A,B}
  521. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> Bah
  522. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> {A,B} ∋ null
  523. # [17:04] <jgraham> Now you're just showing off
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  531. # [17:27] <jgraham> annevk: Did you get your note?
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  533. # [17:33] <annevk> jgraham: yeah, but I didn't really work on it :(
  534. # [17:36] <Echoes2> hi guys, curious as to whether or not there is a need for or an element similar to say - <logo></logo>
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  537. # [17:40] <jgraham> Echoes2: You tell us. Is there a need? I can't think of any good use cases
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  539. # [17:41] <Lachy> Echoes2, <h1><img src="logo" alt="Company Name"></h1> seems good enough.
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  543. # [17:51] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  544. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> Oh, bah
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  546. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, now I get to figure out something for your patches that fail on debug builds and pass on opt builds :/
  547. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, some of my tests fail on debug builds and pass on optimized builds? That sounds like a fairly serious problem.
  548. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> (in Gecko)
  549. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> Also, since Bitbucket is down, I'm pushing a DOM4 change to W3C only, all right?
  550. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> annevk, ^
  551. # [17:53] <Ms2ger> Stringification differs
  552. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> So be sure to pull from there.
  553. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> Oh, really? That sounds like a bad idea.
  554. # [17:53] <Ms2ger> Debug builds add the pointer
  555. # [17:53] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Doesn't sound that surprising to me :)
  556. # [17:54] <AryehGregor> jgraham, what doesn't?
  557. # [17:54] <annevk> AryehGregor: sure
  558. # [17:54] <annevk> AryehGregor: guess we'll sync it later
  559. # [17:54] * AryehGregor now has a desktop with much faster CPU than his server
  560. # [17:54] <annevk> we should maybe consider moving all specs to github for better integration with the web community
  561. # [17:54] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Different behaviour in debug
  562. # [17:55] <annevk> but git vs hg might be too much of a pain
  563. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> Like [object Window @ 0x7fe97b3ef320 (native @ 0x7fe97b112c78)]
  564. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> Almost twice the bogomips!
  565. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> annevk, it's not that bad at all, in fact. hg-git works quite well.
  566. # [17:55] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104)
  567. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> The major nuisance is you have different commit id's.
  568. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> annevk, I'm not touching git if I can help it :)
  569. # [17:55] * AryehGregor isn't touching hg if he can help it, but apparently can't :(
  570. # [17:56] <jgraham> It would actaully be easier to ahve the server on git and let people that want to use hg as the client do taht
  571. # [17:56] <AryehGregor> annevk, Ms2ger: Running make on DOM4 seems to have changed the output format of Overview.html to HTML5 instead of HTML 4.01.
  572. # [17:56] <jgraham> (I would slightly prefer that, even)
  573. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> Er, wait a second
  574. # [17:56] <AryehGregor> Is that expected?
  575. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> Have you committed already?
  576. # [17:56] <AryehGregor> No.
  577. # [17:56] <AryehGregor> I always look at the diff first.
  578. # [17:56] <AryehGregor> (and also after committing but before pushing, generally)
  579. # [17:57] <AryehGregor> (and by "always" I mean "usually, if I feel like it")
  580. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> hg update 4de5b048478e
  581. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> That'll get you back to the ED version
  582. # [17:57] <AryehGregor> Oh, I was on the WD version?
  583. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> The WD version was on tip
  584. # [17:58] <annevk> bitbucket sort of seems up
  585. # [17:59] <annevk> maybe only the site
  586. # [17:59] <annevk> :/
  587. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> Yeah, seems up-ish.
  588. # [17:59] <AryehGregor> Push just succeeded.
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  590. # [18:02] <bga> http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/01/05/1453244/leap-second-coming-in-june-2012
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  598. # [18:18] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  599. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> Happy new year, dglazkov!
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  601. # [18:19] <dglazkov> Happy New Year, Ms2ger!
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  606. # [18:29] * Ms2ger grumbles about webkit
  607. # [18:30] <jgraham> Altogether now for one last pre-ephiphany chorus of "We Wish You an Alright Christmas and an OK New Year"
  608. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> jgraham, yeah, you too
  609. # [18:30] <jgraham> :)
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  615. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22height%3A50px%3Bwidth%3A50px%3Bbackground%3Agreen%3B-o-transform%3Arotate(180deg)%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Ew(document.querySelector(%22div%22).getBoundingClientRect().height)%3C%2Fscript%3E
  616. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> In Opera, that logs "52".
  617. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> That's the height of a 50px square div with -o-transform: rotate(180deg).
  618. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> lul?
  619. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> Note: scale(-1, -1) produces the same computed value of -o-transform, but a height of 50 as expected.
  620. # [18:36] <gsnedders> Um, why isn't that loading anything?
  621. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> What do you mean?
  622. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> Works for me.
  623. # [18:37] <jgraham> Loads for me and logs 51
  624. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> The HTML is: <!DOCTYPE html>
  625. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> <div style="height:50px;width:50px;background:green;-o-transform:rotate(180deg)"></div>
  626. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> <script>w(document.querySelector("div").getBoundingClientRect().height)</script>
  627. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> I'm testing in Opera Next 12.00 alpha.
  628. # [18:37] <jgraham> Seems like a bug. I wonder if it is fixed internally
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  630. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> I'm guessing there's too much rounding going on.
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  632. # [18:38] <jgraham> gsnedders: You said you weren't doing anything; try it on mainline :)
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  635. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> Like probably 180deg is converted to radians and then something gets rounded excessively and it winds up really rotating by 176deg or something.
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  637. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> skewX and skewY with small values have similar problems: http://aryeh.name/tmp/css-test/contributors/aryehgregor/incoming/2d-transforms.html
  638. # [18:39] <gsnedders> Throws URIError here
  639. # [18:40] <gsnedders> Because I missed the final E of the URL
  640. # [18:40] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Probably an effect of AA
  641. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Rotation by 180 degrees of a pixel-aligned square that's an integer number of pixels wide has what exactly to do with AA?
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  645. # [18:45] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I don't know the details of our implementation, but I suspect it may be related to the fact that pi radians can't be expressed as a double
  646. # [18:45] <AryehGregor> I suspect so too. It looks like an egregious rounding error.
  647. # [18:45] <AryehGregor> My tests tolerate up to 1.5px; this is 2px.
  648. # [18:46] <jgraham> (depending on platform)
  649. # [18:46] <jgraham> (1px for me)
  650. # [18:46] <gsnedders> 1px for me too
  651. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> Bah.
  652. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> I wish I could make the tolerances lower.
  653. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> You'd think we could at least require some precision for getClientBoundingRect().
  654. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> Even if we don't for actual layout.
  655. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> Although I guess the two should match up.
  656. # [18:48] <gsnedders> It makes no sense if it doesn't much the actual layout box
  657. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> I guess.
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  659. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> Can't we just require precision in layout too?
  660. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> Bah on CSS.
  661. # [18:50] <annevk> it's kind of funny how CSS once led the effort to more precision and is now the one that is behind
  662. # [18:50] <annevk> kind of similar to the industrial revolution in England
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  681. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Yay, Gecko nightly crash.
  682. # [20:03] * AryehGregor isolates
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  703. # [20:41] <dglazkov> forums thread on www-style is now up to 21 messages. "Do you know who also used forums? Nazis."
  704. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> True fact!
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  706. # [20:46] <astearns> from mattwilcox.net: "To argue effectively, don’t talk too much."
  707. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, that would be a totally jerk move to bring up. ^_^
  708. # [20:46] <hober> dglazkov: :)
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  717. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, what format do CSS people like spec bug reports in?
  718. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> I've found a few in CSS 2D Transforms.
  719. # [20:55] * Quits: jhawkins (~jhawkins@74.125.59.177) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  720. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> Email?
  721. # [20:55] * Joins: ojan (ojan@nat/google/x-ctjafuoslyzcrcfd)
  722. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Should I make it one issue per e-mail, or does it not matter?
  723. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Personally, I prefer large issues that might require discussion to be separate emails, and small issues (typos, small changes) to be collected together.
  724. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> I'll send one big e-mail and see what happens.
  725. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> That works too. When discussion starts happening with an email like that, I just split a new thread off myself.
  726. # [20:57] <hober> AryehGregor: we're using bugzilla to track issues in the transforms/transitions/animations specs
  727. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> hober, okay.
  728. # [20:57] <hober> AryehGregor: but emailing www-style is fine too
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  730. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> Ah, you're one of the editors, good.
  731. # [20:58] <hober> AryehGregor: nice tests btw
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  733. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> I'll file bugs.
  734. # [20:58] <hober> thanks
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  738. # [21:08] <annevk> AryehGregor: I'm out of CSS
  739. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> annevk, oh, you are? Maybe you should remove your name as editor from CSSOM stuff, then.
  740. # [21:09] <annevk> I was kind of hoping the new editors would have done that by now :/
  741. # [21:09] <gsnedders> Most specs list former editors, with dates.
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  745. # [21:23] <annevk> hsivonen: do you think Gecko is willing to standardize it's "universal charset detector"?
  746. # [21:23] <annevk> hsivonen: as another step towards deterministic encoding detection
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  749. # [21:28] <Ms2ger> Hey, we've hired tantek and AryehGregor, we might be able to standardize stuff now :)
  750. # [21:29] <tantek> :)
  751. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> annevk, looking for a job, btw? ^^
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  753. # [21:29] * tantek is in the depths of specing/fixing text-overflow details
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  755. # [21:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: if you're hiring, maybe
  756. # [21:31] <Ms2ger> Well, I don't know who'd actually have to decide that, but perhaps
  757. # [21:31] <annevk> and I just learned iso-2022-jp-2 was added to Gecko for fun times https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72468
  758. # [21:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: you mean you're actually a team?
  759. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> I'm a volunteer
  760. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> I have no idea what MoCo people do
  761. # [21:33] <annevk> with "you" I meant you, not MoCo ;)
  762. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> I wish I was a team
  763. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> annevk, you seem to be leaving messages for other annevks, so I should make it clear you'd only get one paycheck ;)
  764. # [21:35] <annevk> the more I read about iso-2022-jp-2 the more I wish I didn't
  765. # [21:35] <annevk> Ms2ger: hehe
  766. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> And yeah, if people threw patches at us, we tended to take them rather easily
  767. # [21:37] <annevk> in this case the module owner actually agreed it would be nice to have
  768. # [21:37] <annevk> but yeah, a couple of years later there was the XForms stuff
  769. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> :/
  770. # [21:40] <annevk> after that we got more organized as browsers I think, with SVG sort of in between
  771. # [21:40] <annevk> though I suppose now you could argue about multimedia standards
  772. # [21:40] <annevk> which are prolly some new kind of mess
  773. # [21:45] <annevk> also
  774. # [21:45] <annevk> the character encoding fatal stuff
  775. # [21:45] <annevk> is not nearly implemented everywhere
  776. # [21:45] <annevk> for all encodings that is
  777. # [21:45] <annevk> and it's basically only for XML
  778. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> Go, XML!
  779. # [21:46] <annevk> "XML tax"
  780. # [21:46] <annevk> (which in turn somewhat compliantly implemented by browsers because of Acid3, which in turn had the test donated by annevk... o_O)
  781. # [21:47] <annevk> was somewhat*
  782. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> Well, if you're going to blame yourself...
  783. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> Then I don't have to do it :)
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  785. # [21:53] <annevk> http://czyborra.com/utf/#UTF-9 (UTF-7,5)
  786. # [21:54] <annevk> Ms2ger: I conveniently forgot if I did it to point out how silly XML was or because I actually believed it was a good idea
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  789. # [21:55] <annevk> http://czyborra.com/utf/#UTF-1 is that the same Glenn Adams mentioned in the footnote?
  790. # [21:56] <annevk> not sure why I'm reading this, back to iso-2022-jp...
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  793. # [21:59] <annevk> http://unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/Archives-Old/UML009/0011.html hehe
  794. # [21:59] <annevk> about UTF-8: "It shall be succeeded by UCS-2/4 in the long run."
  795. # [21:59] <annevk> if I was John Gruber, I could have a field day
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  798. # [22:01] <dglazkov> John Gruber lives in Philly and is a giant d*ck. annevk, you're 0 for 2 on that.
  799. # [22:02] <annevk> oh hello Android :p
  800. # [22:03] * dglazkov regrets calling anyone a d*ck.
  801. # [22:03] <dglazkov> apologies, Internets.
  802. # [22:04] <annevk> to be clear, I don't always agree with him either, I was just referring to his practice of calling people on silly things they've said in the past
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  804. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> I finally understand why we have 17 planes in unicode.
  805. # [22:07] <Ms2ger> Oh?
  806. # [22:08] <Dashiva> To be forward-compatible with string theory?
  807. # [22:08] <divya> lolol
  808. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Becasue the surrogate range can encode 16 planes.
  809. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> And you obviously don't need surrogates to refer to the bmp, so 16+1=17
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  821. # [22:28] <jgraham> Man I missed dglazkov being grumpy
  822. # [22:28] <dglazkov> :D
  823. # [22:28] <jgraham> That was like a once-in-a-lifetime oppertunity
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  827. # [22:35] <jamesr_> what's the easy way to parse out query parameters on a page?
  828. # [22:35] <jamesr_> do we have a web platform API for that yet?
  829. # [22:38] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb_)
  830. # [22:41] <Peter`> abarth was working on a spec about a year ago: https://docs.google.com/a/lvp-media.com/document/edit?id=1r_VTFKApVOaNIkocrg0z-t7lZgzisTuGTXkdzAk4gLU&hl=en
  831. # [22:42] <Peter`> that's now here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
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  833. # [22:42] <Peter`> With a WebKit bug here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=71968
  834. # [22:42] <Peter`> jamesr_ ^
  835. # [22:42] <Peter`> proper link for the docs.google.com page: https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1r_VTFKApVOaNIkocrg0z-t7lZgzisTuGTXkdzAk4gLU&hl=en
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  837. # [22:44] <jamesr_> looks like it's mostly ongoing
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  843. # [22:52] <annevk> it's not really being worked on at the moment
  844. # [22:52] <annevk> hopefully later this year
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  847. # [22:56] <dglazkov> I must say, I really like G+'s concept of Pages. I guess Facebook has something similar, too. But man, it's so easy to build a blog-like status updatery thing that's also looped into all your social network: https://plus.sandbox.google.com/103330502635338602217/posts
  848. # [22:59] <annevk> "Not Found"
  849. # [23:00] <dglazkov> https://plus.google.com/103330502635338602217/posts
  850. # [23:00] <dglazkov> jeez, what a doofus i am.
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  852. # [23:03] <jamesr_> dglazkov, can you control who has write access to a page?
  853. # [23:03] <dglazkov> jamesr_: yep. you can define managers and an owner.
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  855. # [23:03] <dglazkov> I would really like for G+ to support embedded images though
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  861. # [23:09] <annevk> hmm http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/ucvja/nsJapaneseToUnicode.cpp#645 is the same as ASCII
  862. # [23:10] <abarth> dglazkov: you need a logo
  863. # [23:10] <abarth> dglazkov: maybe a shadowy figure hiding in the DOM
  864. # [23:10] <dglazkov> :)
  865. # [23:10] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  866. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Like the incognito mode guy!
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  868. # [23:14] <annevk> oh another one is secretly a duplicate too
  869. # [23:14] <annevk> Ms2ger can remove some code again if he wants to
  870. # [23:14] <jamesr_> a shadowy figure with well-documented output ports
  871. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: That sounds dirty.
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  878. # [23:39] <dglazkov> which spec defines dom ranges and selections nowadays?
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  881. # [23:43] <smaug____> dglazkov: dom range is in DOM4
  882. # [23:43] <smaug____> selection is ... somewhere else
  883. # [23:44] <dglazkov> found it, editing APIs
  884. # [23:44] <dglazkov> smaug____, thanks!
  885. # [23:45] <smaug____> I would assume selection handling is very much non-reviewed
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  888. # [23:53] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:149:4:1b01:69cd:9954:1b37:95c9)
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  890. # [23:56] * Quits: shans (~shanestep@203-158-59-185.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: shans)
  891. # Session Close: Fri Jan 06 00:00:00 2012

The end :)