/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-01-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 07 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  20. # [00:25] <zewt> "This is an editor's draft of a spec, it's not a recommendation, so it's hardly a violation of anything." <- losing a lot of respect for webkit here
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  23. # [00:25] <Ms2ger> timeless, "anyone have experience cajoling MXR into doing regexp searches? I'm trying to get it to search for '#\d+[#=]' (in Perl-speak), and I'm getting nowhere"
  24. # [00:25] <Ms2ger> cc jwalden
  25. # [00:26] <Hixie> zewt: url?
  26. # [00:26] <Ms2ger> public-webapps, the JSON thread
  27. # [00:26] <zewt> responseType "json" thread on webapps
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  33. # [00:32] <Hixie> ah, i didn't read that thread
  34. # [00:32] <gsnedders> The HTML5 parser defines a context-sensitive language, right? Has anyone tried to do a formal definition of it?
  35. # [00:32] <Hixie> are you saying the HTML spec isn't formal? :-P
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  37. # [00:33] <gsnedders> Yes. :P
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  40. # [00:40] <annevk> bz_moz: you get too much email :)
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  42. # [00:41] <annevk> bz_moz: having said that, I think in three months I had about 20000, so maybe you are right... depressing
  43. # [00:41] <annevk> three months away*
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  45. # [00:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can you think of anything that stops it from being a CSG?
  46. # [00:42] <annevk> kennyluck: 950, which I thought is what Gecko implemented
  47. # [00:42] <annevk> AryehGregor: thanks
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  49. # [00:43] <annevk> wb Hixie
  50. # [00:52] <Hixie> gsnedders: CSG?
  51. # [00:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: Context sensitive grammar
  52. # [00:52] * gsnedders will be scared if it isn't
  53. # [00:52] <Hixie> document.write()?
  54. # [00:52] <gsnedders> Because if it isn't, you need a Turing machine to parse it.
  55. # [00:52] <Hixie> you do
  56. # [00:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: Assume scripting disabled
  57. # [00:53] <Hixie> oh
  58. # [00:53] <gsnedders> (Once you have JS involved, obviously a Turing machine is needed)
  59. # [00:53] <Hixie> do you mean conforming syntax only too?
  60. # [00:53] <gsnedders> No.
  61. # [00:53] <annevk> gsnedders: take a few classes off and figure it out
  62. # [00:54] <annevk> gsnedders: I'm sure mankind will thank you, and university might hand you a few credits
  63. # [00:55] <Hixie> gsnedders: i'm not familiar enough with the strict definition of CSG to say one way or the other
  64. # [00:55] <Hixie> gsnedders: certainly in the common case -- scripting enabled -- parsing can be non-deterministic
  65. # [00:55] <gsnedders> My gut says it is a CSG, but I don't have proof for it.
  66. # [00:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: Certainly. document.write guarantees that.
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  68. # [00:57] <Hixie> gsnedders: does the fact that HTML streams can be unbounded make it not a CSG?
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  70. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> No.
  71. # [00:58] <Hixie> wikipedia says a CSG can be parsed by an LBA, and an LBA assumes bounded input as far as i can tell
  72. # [00:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: No
  73. # [00:58] <Hixie> but here we are outside my area of expertise
  74. # [00:58] <Hixie> so...
  75. # [00:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: Even a regular grammar can handle unbounded input
  76. # [00:59] <Hixie> it seems wikipedia's definitions also has the key sentence "The only restriction placed on grammars for such languages is that no production maps a string to a shorter string."
  77. # [00:59] <Hixie> but i don't really understand what that means
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  79. # [00:59] <gsnedders> e.g., a null-terminated string can be parsed with a regular grammar, but you don't know when, if ever, you'll reach the null byte.
  80. # [01:00] <gsnedders> So inevitably anything higher up in the hierarchy can be unbounded.
  81. # [01:00] <Hixie> k
  82. # [01:01] <Hixie> oh oh
  83. # [01:01] <Hixie> the AAA
  84. # [01:01] <Hixie> it can mutate previously-provided output
  85. # [01:01] <Hixie> does that violate some rule of CSGs?
  86. # [01:01] <Hixie> <html x> and <body x>, too
  87. # [01:02] <Hixie> and <table>x
  88. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> I'm somewhat concerned about the AAA.
  89. # [01:02] <Hixie> aren't we all
  90. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> What's the effect of <html x>?
  91. # [01:02] <Hixie> mutates the earlier <html> node
  92. # [01:02] <Hixie> iirc
  93. # [01:02] <Hixie> (adds attributes)
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  95. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Oh, is this because the parser has some special-case for <html>?
  96. # [01:03] <gsnedders> That's not an issue. You're still creating the html node.
  97. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> That adds the token first?
  98. # [01:03] <Hixie> <html><html a><html b> parses the same as <html a b> iirc
  99. # [01:03] <Hixie> where you can have any amount of content between each of those tags
  100. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> But yeah, the fact that AAA can move content an arbitrary distance past arbitrary content inside the table would probably break a CSG.
  101. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Same with <html> attribute merging, yeah.
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  103. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Yeah, you'd need a two-stack DFA, which is turing-equivalent.
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  105. # [01:05] <gsnedders> Is a two-stack DFA Turing-equiv? I thought you could do that with a CSG.
  106. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Yes, it is.
  107. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> If i'm remembering my automata theory properly
  108. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Shit, I meant PDA.
  109. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> A two-stack PDA.
  110. # [01:07] <gsnedders> Well, a PDA is basically just a one-stack DFA
  111. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Hm. You may be able to get by with a nested-stack PDA, which is still a type 1 language.
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  114. # [01:08] <gsnedders> I don't think you can, given the fact you can invoke AAA at any point.
  115. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> Just push the entire in-table contents into a stack until you hit </table>, looking for AAA-stuff and parsing appropriately. Then, emit <table> and start parsing the built-up in-table stack.
  116. # [01:09] <gsnedders> Yeah, that's the vague sort of approach I was thinking of for <html x><html b>
  117. # [01:09] <gsnedders> But I'm not sure you can share the stack with that of open elements.
  118. # [01:09] <dglazkov> I used to have a PDA. I had to put a couple of AAA's into it to make it work.
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  120. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'm not certain either. I'm not really familiar with nested-stack machines.
  121. # [01:11] <gsnedders> In fact, you almost certainly can't
  122. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> Well, I'm fairly certain that HTML is parsable by a LBA, since all actual computers are that.
  123. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> And we have bounds on the size that some stacks can grow.
  124. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> I guess we'd need to make sure that there aren't any unbounded stacks.
  125. # [01:12] <gsnedders> Stack of open elements is unbounded.
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  127. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Ah, right. There you go, then.
  128. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> All the way past CSG, I think.
  129. # [01:13] <gsnedders> Unbounded stacks can exist in an LBA
  130. # [01:13] <gsnedders> and in a PDA too
  131. # [01:13] <gsnedders> You only need a finite stack for a given finite input
  132. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> (btw, a two-stack pda is turing-equiv because the two stacks are equivalent to a single tape with a bidirectional head)
  133. # [01:13] <gsnedders> (Oh, duh)
  134. # [01:14] * dglazkov sulks because nobody liked his joke
  135. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait. Let's see. Are there any stacks that grow faster than linear in the input size?
  136. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> The stack of formatting elements did at some point, I think.
  137. # [01:14] <gsnedders> No.
  138. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Okay, then we're good.
  139. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> It's likely an LBA then.
  140. # [01:14] <gsnedders> At some point, yes. But it has a limit now.
  141. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> And thus a CSG.
  142. # [01:15] <gsnedders> It's going to get horrifically messy, but I think it's doable.
  143. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Yes, definitely.
  144. # [01:15] <gsnedders> Yeah, we're definitely an LBA.
  145. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Though, honestly, a proof of such just requires that it's (a) parsable by a turing machine, and (b) has no memory requirements that grow faster than linearly.
  146. # [01:17] <Hixie> i have no idea what the heck you are all talking about, but let me know if you come to a decision that affects the spec :-D
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  148. # [01:17] <Hixie> dglazkov: if it helps, i thought it was amusing. :-P
  149. # [01:17] <dglazkov> yay!
  150. # [01:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: It mostly has implications on proving the correctness of implementations
  151. # [01:19] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: What I wonder is whether a nested stack will do
  152. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'm not actually familiar with nested-stack, and the wikipedia article is minimal.
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  155. # [01:24] <gsnedders> Oh well, next year I get to learn about grammar from two POVs at uni.
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  157. # [01:24] <gsnedders> (From both a CS POV and a theoretical linguistics one)
  158. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> zewt: "This is the worst thing I've seen anyone say in here in a long time" sounds like a challenge.
  159. # [01:26] <zewt> heh
  160. # [01:26] <zewt> have at thee, archives
  161. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> Oh, I was just going to say something involving hitler and tentacles.
  162. # [01:27] <zewt> the world is desensitized to tentacle hitlers
  163. # [01:28] <gsnedders> Does foreign content make conforming content context-sensitive?
  164. # [01:28] <gsnedders> Hmmm
  165. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> Because it's allows arbitrary XML?
  166. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> If so: yes, or at least prevents it from being context-free.
  167. # [01:28] <gsnedders> Nah, nested stack will do.
  168. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> XML is *almost* context-free.
  169. # [01:29] <zewt> why does google docs always always break with multiple addresses
  170. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> If only they did end-tags by reversing the name of the tag.
  171. # [01:29] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Doesn't it work if you just push the name of the element to the stack?
  172. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Why would you need to do it char by char?
  173. # [01:30] <gsnedders> AIUI XML is context-free.
  174. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Because that's how I've typically seen grammars defined?
  175. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Specifically, {ww | w in {a,b}+} isn't context-free.
  176. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> And thus, neither is {<w></w>}
  177. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Right, okay
  178. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> If you tokenize at a higher level, then sure.
  179. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Which is effectively what a nested stack parser does.
  180. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Ok, that makes sense.
  181. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Then... I suspect a nested stack parser would work.
  182. # [01:33] <gsnedders> Unless I'm misunderstanding.
  183. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> No, that makes sense given the minimal wikipedia definition.
  184. # [01:40] <gsnedders> So given scripting enabled...
  185. # [01:41] <gsnedders> We're a decider, as we halt.
  186. # [01:41] <gsnedders> Provably, the HTML5 parser will halt.
  187. # [01:43] <gsnedders> (Of course, the system as a whole is Turing complete, because the JS might not)
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  190. # [01:49] <gsnedders> (Sad reality: I'm starting to wonder whether AAA is the best solution. But I guess I'll get murdered if I suggest that without a good reason for it.)
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  205. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> Man, a 2-day delay in me getting webkit set up was caused by an e/i typo.
  206. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> ;_;
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  249. # [06:54] <kennyluck> annevk5, use data:text/html;charset=big5,%C7%B1%C7%AB%C7%E5 as an example and you'll see the difference.
  250. # [06:55] <kennyluck> (re. Gecko implementing a superset of CP950)
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  267. # [08:51] <annevk> kennyluck: ah I see what you mean; I guess we'll go with the bigger table if it's not too much of a hassle, dunno
  268. # [08:57] <kennyluck> annevk, but this is not implemented in browsers besides Firefox so this is sort of a proprietary extension, though I guess it would be nice if IE can adopt it.
  269. # [08:59] <annevk> hmm, if only Gecko has it, it might be something they can consider removing...
  270. # [08:59] <annevk> or is it used?
  271. # [08:59] <kennyluck> It is used. This is an example → http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/C_Chat/index.html
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  274. # [09:02] <kennyluck> Not so frequently though, basically Japansese kanas in big5. People rarely complain about this problem in other browsers so removing it doesn't harm much either…
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  276. # [09:06] <annevk> kennyluck: interesting
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  278. # [09:10] <kennyluck> I don't really get the bar as to what "breaks the web". The encoding detection step can obviously be arbitrarily complex just to save more pages...
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  281. # [09:13] <annevk> kennyluck: it's a judgment call between complexity and making more pages work
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  284. # [09:52] <annevk> kennyluck: any ideas on how to present those data tables btw and what the best location is to retrieve them?
  285. # [09:52] <annevk> kennyluck: I've currently done them as tables, but it might be better to just use arrays
  286. # [09:53] <annevk> all single-octet encodings currently defined are effectively arrays of 128 items
  287. # [09:53] <annevk> multi-octet encodings have arrays that are longer, but there are not that many
  288. # [09:54] <annevk> there's only one for Japanese for instance
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  290. # [09:57] <bga> Google - total NIH :) replace all web related thechnologies to own, s/js/dart/ s/http/spdy/ ....
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  293. # [10:01] <kennyluck> annevk, a button for copying into the clipboard I guess :) nobody reads the table itself anyway.
  294. # [10:01] <kennyluck> Is there a standard way to present such a table?
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  296. # [10:03] <kennyluck> well, a space separated list would be the most reusable format I guess, like this → http://moztw.org/docs/big5/table/moz18-b2u.txt if IETF doesn't have a standard already.
  297. # [10:03] <annevk> oh good times
  298. # [10:04] <annevk> the default styling for <ol> makes it so that if you go over 9000 (actually 9999) you can no longer see the first digit
  299. # [10:05] <kennyluck> lol
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  301. # [10:08] * kennyluck is looking at the iconv source to find the biggest table → http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/libiconv.git/tree/lib?id=3a33986e1d2c819dc2b8a84684e067cf177d1815
  302. # [10:09] <kennyluck> Is cns11643_inv used on the Web?
  303. # [10:11] <kennyluck> euc_tw… I guess it's not
  304. # [10:11] <annevk> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/libiconv.git/tree/lib/utf8.h looks buggy; still handles six octets
  305. # [10:12] <annevk> kennyluck: both Opera and Gecko support it I believe in incompatible ways, but also through iso-2022-cn (not sure how compatible it is there)
  306. # [10:12] <kennyluck> 9000 seems enough, though I am still not convinced why we want to format it in HTML...
  307. # [10:13] <annevk> Japanese has an index of multiples of 94
  308. # [10:13] <annevk> so if that could somehow be nicely represented in HTML it might be a nice way for people to look up stuff
  309. # [10:13] <annevk> on the other hand, a long list of index -> codepoint could also work
  310. # [10:14] <annevk> in text/plain that is
  311. # [10:15] <annevk> kennyluck: would you say the single-octet encodings should not be represented as HTML either?
  312. # [10:16] <kennyluck> annevk, no.
  313. # [10:16] <kennyluck> I mean it should be presented as HTML.
  314. # [10:17] <kennyluck> I guess you should use the <details> element :p
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  316. # [10:19] <annevk> for multi-octet tables?
  317. # [10:19] <annevk> that could work
  318. # [10:20] <annevk> still need a way to present them
  319. # [10:20] <annevk> 94 characters per row is quite long :)
  320. # [10:32] <annevk> Larry Masinter: fighting silly registry policies since '98: http://unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/Archives-Old/UML013/0007.html
  321. # [10:32] <annevk> (and prolly before)
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  323. # [10:36] <kennyluck> annevk, by the way, how do you know big5-hkscs is needed for the Web?
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  325. # [10:40] <annevk> there's issues in various bug databases suggesting it is
  326. # [10:41] <annevk> though I think the way it works is that users use manual override or an extension or some such
  327. # [10:41] <annevk> I'd love to get more information on that somehow
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  330. # [10:46] <Ms2ger> Hixie, fwiw, I'd also like to get div.impl highlighted, and I don't care about Workers/Websockets
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  344. # [11:56] <annevk> there's various notes suggesting Gecko supports an eight octet sequence in euc-kr, but I cannot find how it's implemented :(
  345. # [11:56] <annevk> e.g. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9962
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  347. # [11:58] <annevk> another thing that makes this difficult is that Gecko patches generated files rather than source files: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134749 :/
  348. # [12:01] <annevk> although I guess the process is documented so it should be okay
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  353. # [12:18] <annevk> hmm, iso-2022-kr looks like quite the mess
  354. # [12:18] <annevk> so surprising
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  360. # [12:55] <annevk> can someone explain the purpose of ESC $ ) C in iso-2022-kr to me?
  361. # [13:00] <annevk> looks like it's meaningless
  362. # [13:03] <annevk> but adds a ton of complexity
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  366. # [13:25] <annevk> so it seems Gecko only supports ESC $ ) C if it's at the beginning of the file and it will have zero effect
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  368. # [13:25] <annevk> the effect is that you don't get to see ESC $ ) C on the screen
  369. # [13:26] <annevk> maybe we should just drop it altogether
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  394. # [15:18] <annevk> whoa that XHR discussion blew up a bit
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  414. # [15:39] <espadrine> dglazkov: in Web Components, do you plan on making templates have substitution slots as in http://infrequently.org/11/fronteers/fronteers.html#40 ?
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  422. # [16:01] <annevk> kennyluck: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/en-b5hkscs/all/all
  423. # [16:02] <zewt> "whose character encoding we know" there's a big caveat if ever I saw one. heh
  424. # [16:03] <annevk> http://i818.com/ and http://www.consumer.org.hk/website/ws_chi/ are still online and do indeed declare big5-hkscs
  425. # [16:03] <zewt> wonder how smart its charset guessing is (guessing big5 is probably fairly easy)
  426. # [16:04] <annevk> they also render fine in IE which reportedly treats big5-hk.. as label for big5
  427. # [16:06] <annevk> aah actually
  428. # [16:06] <annevk> IE does not render some characters correctly
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  430. # [16:07] <annevk> I get boxes and UPA code points and in other browsers I get Unicode assigned characters
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  432. # [16:07] <annevk> so I guess you need a HK Windows setup to render such a page correctly in IE
  433. # [16:07] <annevk> (but you'll still get into trouble if you copy data elsewhere)
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  444. # [17:01] <annevk> okay, hkscs is for later
  445. # [17:02] <annevk> hkscs / gbk/gb18030 madness / and prolly nuking iso-2022-cn and euc-tw in a way similar to Chrome
  446. # [17:02] <annevk> oh and then utf-8 and utf-16
  447. # [17:03] <annevk> and the tables and the encoders
  448. # [17:03] <annevk> tralala
  449. # [17:03] <Ms2ger> Job security :)
  450. # [17:03] <annevk> nah, just good times :)
  451. # [17:04] <zewt> death to modal encodings
  452. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> s/modal/
  453. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> /
  454. # [17:05] <zewt> be sort of hard to do anything without *any* encodings
  455. # [17:06] <annevk> could certainly do away with the 99%
  456. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> #occupyiso-2022-cn
  457. # [17:06] <zewt> don't say that around F ms2 got there first
  458. # [17:07] <annevk> was that a joke in a different encoding?
  459. # [17:13] <annevk> btw Ms2ger / zewt, it's prolly good to stay nice to Jarred; he's fighting the good fight
  460. # [17:13] <annevk> a good idea*
  461. # [17:13] <annevk> gotta go now
  462. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> See you
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  466. # [17:39] <dglazkov> espadrine: I am thinking about it. Please file a bug here: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?comment=&blocked=14949&short_desc=%5BExplainer%5D%3A%20&product=WebAppsWG&component=Component%20Model
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  469. # [17:53] <hsivonen> bold use of "assume" in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15447
  470. # [17:54] <zewt> "planning to plan to" sure sounds like an academic
  471. # [17:58] * Joins: diraol (~diraol@189.100.9.100)
  472. # [17:58] <Philip`> "One of my design rules is that the agent may ignore parts of standards, if I deem those parts unnecessarily inelegant." - why bother trying to get the standard changed, then?
  473. # [17:59] <zewt> "i know better than the rest of the web, sit down everyone"
  474. # [18:00] * Philip` wonders what would happen if there was an opportunity to redesign HTML from scratch without caring at all about compatibility, based on the lessons currently learnt from it
  475. # [18:00] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-219.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  476. # [18:04] <Philip`> (Also: "I am assuming that, ignoring GeoCities-era websites, usage in the wild is now limited to ad and tracking scripts." - maybe someone could point out that the page on which he is writing that comment uses document.write for useful functionality)
  477. # [18:05] <Philip`> (Maybe Bugzilla counts as GeoCities-era technology, though)
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  479. # [18:08] <hsivonen> annevk: not usre if there's interest in standardizing chardet, but there is a paper that explains what it does, IIRC
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  559. # Session Close: Sun Jan 08 00:00:01 2012

The end :)